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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Work in Progress friends. This week we have

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Speaker 1: a guest that encompasses the idea of being a whip

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Speaker 1: smart woman in the world. Today, I am so geeked

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Speaker 1: to say this to you, guys, I'm actually kind of

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Speaker 1: losing my mind. Today we are joined by none other

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Speaker 1: than Melinda French Gates. She is a philanthropist, a businesswoman,

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Speaker 1: and a global advocate for women and girls, and on

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Speaker 1: a personal note, someone who has leveraged her platform for

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Speaker 1: such goodness in the world. I have looked up to

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Speaker 1: her for my entire adult life. For the last twenty

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Speaker 1: five years, Melinda has led efforts to unlock a healthier,

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Speaker 1: more prosperous, and more equal future. Did that at the

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Speaker 1: Gates Foundation, and today she hads Pivotal, an organization that

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Speaker 1: she formed in twenty fifteen that works to accelerate the

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Speaker 1: pace of progress and advance women's power and influence, both

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Speaker 1: here in the United States and all around the world.

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Speaker 1: And not only does she have one of the most

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Speaker 1: incredible professional resumes in the world, but Melinda has also

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Speaker 1: managed to be an incredibly heartfelt and vulnerable and thoughtful

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Speaker 1: leader for us. She is the author of the best

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Speaker 1: selling book The Moment of Lift, out of which she

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Speaker 1: actually created. Moment of Lift Books and Imprint, publishing original

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Speaker 1: nonfiction by visionaries that are working to unlock a more

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Speaker 1: equal world, and this year she is publishing her beautiful

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Speaker 1: memoir the next day. The book is about transitions, the

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Speaker 1: moments that we step out of our familiar surroundings and

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Speaker 1: into new landscapes, the space where we're caught in grief

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Speaker 1: or change or success or any kind of transition really,

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Speaker 1: and she's chosen to open up and reflect about her

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Speaker 1: own life in ways that had me flipping every page

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Speaker 1: saying yes exactly. Her story is obviously her own, it's

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Speaker 1: incredibly unique, and yet everything she shares will also feel

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Speaker 1: so personal to you. I know because it felt so

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Speaker 1: personal to me. Because the stories that she's telling illuminate

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Speaker 1: universal lessons, whether they're about loosening the grip of perfectionism,

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Speaker 1: helping friends navigate crisis, embracing uncertainty, all of it. Each

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Speaker 1: and every one of us, no matter who we are

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Speaker 1: or where we are in life, can be sure that

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Speaker 1: we are headed for times of transition and with incredible

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Speaker 1: warmth and grace, she has given us this book in

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Speaker 1: a moment in time that I think we need some

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Speaker 1: inspiration and some heart medicine more than ever. I am

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Speaker 1: so absolutely honored to have her on the podcast today.

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Speaker 1: Let's dive in with Melinda. Melinda, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me today. It's such an honor to have

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Speaker 1: you on the show as an early activist and a

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Speaker 1: woman who's tried to use my relative platform to affect

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Speaker 1: some positive change in the world. I have looked up

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Speaker 1: to you for my entire adult career and yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: just so touched by this and so excited.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, I'm really glad we could do this.

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Speaker 1: Me too, And congratulations on the book. It's just so beautiful.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, before we dive into that and where we find

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Speaker 1: you today, I'd love to go back in time. And

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Speaker 1: I know you've shared some really beautiful stories about your life,

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Speaker 1: your childhood. You know what an amazing role model your

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Speaker 1: mother was to you. But for some of our listeners

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Speaker 1: who maybe haven't read the book yet, can you take

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Speaker 1: us back to let's say nine or ten years old

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Speaker 1: and reflect a little bit with us on who you

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Speaker 1: were as a kid, what your childhood was like, what

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Speaker 1: you were really interested in.

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Speaker 2: So I grew up in Dallas, Texas, in a suburb

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Speaker 2: of Dallas, Texas, very close, tight knit community. We knew

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Speaker 2: most of our neighbors on our street and on the

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Speaker 2: street behind us. The moms kind of looked out for

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Speaker 2: each other's kids and kind of knew what was, you know,

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Speaker 2: going on, who was at whose house. And as a

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Speaker 2: nine or ten year old, one of my favorite things

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Speaker 2: was to ride my bike, being able to ride my

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Speaker 2: bike places, you know, every year I got a little

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Speaker 2: bit more freedom to ride further farther away from from

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Speaker 2: the house, and just to be able to ride to

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Speaker 2: the creek, or ride to the park, or eventually take

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Speaker 2: my allowance and ride to my favorite store. Just that

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Speaker 2: kind of sense of freedom and discovery. I've always loved summer.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I liked school, but I didn't really love

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Speaker 2: it until I got honestly to high school. So in

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Speaker 2: the summers of like when I was nine or ten,

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Speaker 2: I just couldn't wait for summer, you know, for school

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Speaker 2: to be over and then just to be outside a

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Speaker 2: lot playing. And I had a really good friend in

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Speaker 2: the neighborhood. My best friend lived across the alley and

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Speaker 2: down one house, and her mom was extraordinarily outdoors and athletic,

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Speaker 2: which was a bit different than sort of my mom.

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Speaker 2: And so the moms would often sign us up for

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Speaker 2: activities together. And so my best friend Ellen and I

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Speaker 2: used to go to the park and take swim lessons

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Speaker 2: or go play tennis or whatever our moms could dream

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Speaker 2: up as fun as far as fun summer camps for us.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's so great. Do you think if you could

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Speaker 1: a little wrinkle in space time and hang out with

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Speaker 1: yourself for an afternoon? You know who you are today

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Speaker 1: with your nine year old self. Do you feel like

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Speaker 1: you would see the woman that you've become in her?

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Speaker 1: Do you see the same you know, kind of curiosity

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Speaker 1: about others and excitement for community in that little girl

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Speaker 1: when you look back.

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Speaker 2: I think my sense of loving to be outdoors and

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Speaker 2: loving to play and play in an athletic way, I

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Speaker 2: call it be in my body, I think. And then

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Speaker 2: this sense of discovery. In fact, my word of this

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Speaker 2: year that came kind of came to me before the

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Speaker 2: start of the year is discover. Like I love that

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Speaker 2: sense of discovery, and so I think I still have

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Speaker 2: a lot of those elements in me. I certainly would

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Speaker 2: never have dreamt that I would become the advocate that

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Speaker 2: I have become for women and girls around the world.

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Speaker 2: That I just never you just I couldn't imagine that

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Speaker 2: that sort of sense of wonder and discovery and play

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Speaker 2: and athletic play. I think that's just been there for

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Speaker 2: a long time.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I was someone asked me about activism

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Speaker 1: and particularly advocating for girls and girls' education around the world,

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Speaker 1: and I was sort of reflecting, trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: where the spark was lit, and I said, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe it was college journalism and political science. And my

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Speaker 1: dad was the one who said, oh, give me a break.

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Speaker 1: You were organizing walkouts at school in the eighth grade.

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Speaker 1: You have always been like this, And I was like, oh, wow,

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Speaker 1: it's so neat when your parents can sort of help

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Speaker 1: you reflect on the things you're passionate about in your adulthood.

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Speaker 1: And so I love that. I bet if we got

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Speaker 1: to hang out with your nine year old self, there'd

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Speaker 1: be kernels in there for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would hope. So I spent a lot of

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Speaker 2: time climbing trees, not being able to bring my tennis

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Speaker 2: shoes inside because they smelled so bad in the summer,

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Speaker 2: you know, because I was out there so much, just

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Speaker 2: slopping around. And it's funny because in Dallas there isn't

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Speaker 2: a lot of nature nearby, I mean the park and

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Speaker 2: the creek. But where I live in Seattle, we are

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Speaker 2: just surrounded now by nature. And so one of the

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Speaker 2: things I love to do in the summer with a

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Speaker 2: friend is to paddle board or kayak or go out

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Speaker 2: on our bikes. But yeah, and I think maybe friendship too.

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Speaker 2: I knew the importance of friendship when I was little.

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Speaker 2: I was lucky enough to have this friend across the

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Speaker 2: alley and then girlfriends in my class. But I think

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Speaker 2: hopefully some of those elements endure.

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Speaker 1: I love that, and I think those are the things

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Speaker 1: when you look back, you can you can kind of

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Speaker 1: view the chapters of your life or the moments that

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Speaker 1: helped you make a leap or evolve. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's why your book strikes me so beautifully. The next

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Speaker 1: day is all about transitions, and sometimes it's the thing

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Speaker 1: you're not sure you can do that you you know

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Speaker 1: you've got to break through your own glass ceiling to achieve,

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Speaker 1: or after a loss, you have to reflect on what's

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Speaker 1: most important to you. I'm curious as to how sitting

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Speaker 1: down to reflect on transition in every sort of version

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Speaker 1: it comes in, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly,

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Speaker 1: the beautiful. What you feel like you've learned about navigating

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Speaker 1: those those moments of time that are in the in

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Speaker 1: between when something is changing. You know, do you feel

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Speaker 1: like that that reflection made you ready to write the

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Speaker 1: book or or did writing the book help you leap

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Speaker 1: to the next phase.

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Speaker 2: I think it was honestly a bit of both. I

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Speaker 2: didn't when I first started thinking about transitions, I was

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Speaker 2: really I wasn't thinking about a book. I was thinking

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Speaker 2: about I've been honored and asked to do the Stanford

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Speaker 2: commencement speech. And when I talked to the class presidents

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Speaker 2: months ahead, saying, you know, what would you like me

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Speaker 2: to talk about? What should I not talk about? And

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Speaker 2: one of the things they talked about was that they

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Speaker 2: felt like they were kind of on one track. You know,

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Speaker 2: get this degree, go to this company, or start this thing.

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Speaker 2: And they said, if you think there are room for openings,

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Speaker 2: if you believe in leaving room for openings or new opportunities,

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Speaker 2: can you talk a bit about that? And so as

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Speaker 2: I wrote that speech, I realized, Okay, I want to

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Speaker 2: talk about transitions. But it was afterwards that I went, oh,

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Speaker 2: my gosh, I'm turning sixty. You know. The speech was

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Speaker 2: last June. I was turning sixty in August, and I thought,

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Speaker 2: my gosh, I have been through so many transitions, and

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Speaker 2: so wow, maybe I have more to say on this.

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Speaker 2: My mom says that by the time you get to sixty,

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Speaker 2: you have a lot of things to say on a

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Speaker 2: lot of topics, maybe more than you should. But as

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Speaker 2: I started reflecting on the transitions, as I wrote the book,

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Speaker 2: I realized that in those in between spaces is where

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Speaker 2: the growth comes and where and even if their transitions

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Speaker 2: maybe you didn't expect or you didn't want to go through.

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Speaker 2: If you take the time, you grow a lot, and

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of resilience that is formed. And even

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Speaker 2: the transitions you expect or you want to come, they

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Speaker 2: still require sometimes like going to transition to college, you know,

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Speaker 2: transitioning to your first job. It takes a leap of

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Speaker 2: faith and some courage, right, And so I realized, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's actually where the magic is in life.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And there was something that struck me really early

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Speaker 1: in the book when you were reflecting on being pregnant

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Speaker 1: with your first daughter, Jen, and you talked about retiring

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Speaker 1: from Microsoft at the time. And what really struck me

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Speaker 1: is I realized you were talking about this retirement in

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Speaker 1: a way that felt almost like reflecting on a calling.

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Speaker 1: You knew that motherhood was a calling of sorts, and

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Speaker 1: you also knew that you had the privilege in your

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Speaker 1: marriage at the time to be able to do this,

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Speaker 1: and knowing that you wanted to be the kind of

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Speaker 1: parent that your mother was for you, And I wrote

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Speaker 1: a note to myself and I said, this seems so beautiful,

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Speaker 1: and I wonder if it felt that way, and I

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Speaker 1: wonder if it also irked you that it always almost

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Speaker 1: always has to be the woman who makes that choice.

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Speaker 1: And then the thing that really knocked me over was,

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Speaker 1: as you reflected further in that early chapter, you talked

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Speaker 1: about how that pregnancy gave you freedom, you know, and

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Speaker 1: you wrote freedom from perfectionism, from the crushing, relentless societal pressure,

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Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. I won't, you know, read you

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Speaker 1: to you the whole way through, but it really shook

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Speaker 1: me because the way you talk about it and you

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Speaker 1: reflect on calling on freedom, on and essentially writing your

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Speaker 1: own permission slip to live the way you want to.

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Speaker 1: You write about it like a craving. And I don't

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Speaker 1: mean a pregnancy craving, a food craving. I mean like

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Speaker 1: a like a soulful craving to own yourself. It's such

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Speaker 1: a cool way to open a book because I see

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Speaker 1: so many versions of myself in these versions of you.

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Speaker 1: Is it sort of surreal to shepherd your own story

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Speaker 1: and the story of your daughter and the stories of

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Speaker 1: so many other women in that way?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? And I think until you really, at least for me,

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Speaker 2: until I sat and reflected even more on it, it

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Speaker 2: was just a calling. I would just say, a knowing.

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Speaker 2: I just knew I could not have the career that

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Speaker 2: I had at Microsoft, which I loved. It is hard

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Speaker 2: charging nine year career that I had always wanted, you know,

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Speaker 2: I went from computer science to business school to that.

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Speaker 2: But I knew I couldn't be the kind of mother

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Speaker 2: I wanted to be unless I stopped doing that. And look,

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Speaker 2: it is an enormous privilege, enormous And I even knew

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Speaker 2: that at the time that I had enough resources that

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Speaker 2: I could stay home, right, And it's funny because I

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Speaker 2: also always knew I would go back and do something.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know what, but I knew it wasn't going

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Speaker 2: to be the same pace as what I was doing

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Speaker 2: at Microsoft. And then I did. I got into it,

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Speaker 2: and it just felt so good. It felt exactly like

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Speaker 2: what I wanted to do. I had summers back, like

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Speaker 2: one of the things I lamented when I went to

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Speaker 2: Microsoft was it wasn't like college or high school where

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Speaker 2: you had the summer off or your nine or ten

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Speaker 2: year old self. And so all of a sudden, I

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Speaker 2: had the summers back, and I have this little baby

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Speaker 2: I can play with like, you know, I could take

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Speaker 2: her when there's sandtoys to a beach nearby, or a

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Speaker 2: picnic with other moms, or bicycle with her. But yes,

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Speaker 2: I didn't realize at the time that I was chartering

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Speaker 2: a course for myself of who I wanted to be

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Speaker 2: in life. And I will say that as much as

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Speaker 2: I absolutely loved it in the beginning, I did have

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Speaker 2: a crisis of self about eighteen months or two years

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Speaker 2: into it, because we moved from this beautiful kind of

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Speaker 2: idyllic family house that I had picked out during our

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Speaker 2: engagement down the Street into this enormous mansion, and I

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Speaker 2: really had a crisis of self then because I was

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Speaker 2: no longer a working a working woman. I have this baby,

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Speaker 2: but here I am living in a house with a

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Speaker 2: gate way up the hill and more security and much

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Speaker 2: larger than I had wanted. So I really had to

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Speaker 2: find myself in that period, and in a way, eventually

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Speaker 2: philanthropy found me, or I found myself in it. And

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Speaker 2: that is something I never ever would have predicted in

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Speaker 2: life ever well.

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Speaker 1: And that through line, because what I'm hearing you reflect

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Speaker 1: on is having the courage to listen to your own

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Speaker 1: inner voice. You call it a knowing. You knew that

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Speaker 1: you needed to make this shift for this moment in

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Speaker 1: your life. You knew that it wouldn't be permanent, but

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Speaker 1: whatever came after wouldn't be the same necessarily, And it

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Speaker 1: strikes such a knowing in me. I think my inner

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Speaker 1: voice reading your words went, I know that I know

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Speaker 1: what that is. And as I was reflecting on it

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Speaker 1: and on this idea of craving and this idea of calling,

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Speaker 1: it really struck me that you were talking about this

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Speaker 1: this immense craving or knowing, however you define it, of

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Speaker 1: our primal selves. You know that wildness of women are

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Speaker 1: wizys that is so special in our circles. And I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about how what it really is is your voice.

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Speaker 1: Your inner voice can become the voice you use in

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Speaker 1: the world. It's certainly a voice that, as someone looking

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Speaker 1: in on your life, I have admired of yours. And

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Speaker 1: I started to wonder, you know, is trusting the knowing

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Speaker 1: to finding the voice which came with philanthropy. As you

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Speaker 1: talk about what found you, I wonder if that's our

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Speaker 1: gendered knowing that we deserve truly equal footing both in

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Speaker 1: our home and out in the world, because we have

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Speaker 1: all of these ambitions and all of these things even

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Speaker 1: before we become parents. And then you become a parent

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Speaker 1: and you look at a little girl, and how could

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Speaker 1: you not want her to have everything, everything that was

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Speaker 1: denied to you, and everything that was given to you,

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Speaker 1: everything you know was denied to our grandmothers. You know,

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Speaker 1: you want these little girls to have everything and more.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know, I just couldn't help but see

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Speaker 1: all this extra stuff in what you're talking about, even

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Speaker 1: as you so beautifully shared about what a life altering moment,

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Speaker 1: this pregnancy and her birth and this whole journey was for.

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Speaker 2: You, definitely. And I think you know so often as women,

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Speaker 2: like as I say to all three of my now

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Speaker 2: adult children, I have a daughter, a son, and a

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Speaker 2: daughter in that order, you are enough. You're enough on

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Speaker 2: the day you're born. You're enough. And yet I think

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Speaker 2: as we go out into society, especially as women, we're told, well,

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Speaker 2: that position's not for you, or maybe you're not quite

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Speaker 2: ready for that promotion, or you don't see somebody. Maybe

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Speaker 2: if you aspire, let's say, to be a governor of

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Speaker 2: a state, you don't see very many others of them, right,

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Speaker 2: and you so you wonder, what could I if that's

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Speaker 2: my aspiration, could I get there? Or if you a

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Speaker 2: young girl wants to be president, she's never seen a

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Speaker 2: female president in the United States ever, And so I

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Speaker 2: think we get all these messages from society maybe somehow

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Speaker 2: you're not quite enough to get that role or that position,

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Speaker 2: or do that thing or start that business. And that

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Speaker 2: has that really has animated my life, and that I

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Speaker 2: think is what I learned through philanthropy as I started

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Speaker 2: to go out and be out in these low income

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Speaker 2: countries and realize because it's so obvious there the start

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Speaker 2: contrast between men and women and what women are literally

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Speaker 2: not allowed to do what men can do. And so

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Speaker 2: I kept thinking, oh, if we can as a philanthropy community,

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Speaker 2: make the world more equal for them. But it wasn't

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Speaker 2: until I turned the question back on myself and said, well,

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Speaker 2: how far are we really here in our country? And

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Speaker 2: I wanted to say, oh, my god, there's so much

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Speaker 2: more work to be done in the United States, which

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Speaker 2: is the highest income country in the world. And yet yes,

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Speaker 2: we are enough on the day we are born. And

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Speaker 2: yet women and men don't have equality in our own country,

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Speaker 2: and that to me just it shouldn't be. And that

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Speaker 2: calling of meeting other women who were asking me for

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Speaker 2: things as they just knew I was a US citizen

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Speaker 2: coming to listen you know in some way that philanthropy

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Speaker 2: might help. That calling from those women really started to

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Speaker 2: animate my life, both in terms of my foundation work,

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Speaker 2: but also the work I wanted to do here in

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Speaker 2: the United States.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and now a word from our sponsors who make

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Speaker 1: this show possible. It's interesting you talk about that eventual

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Speaker 1: moment of having to look back at where you live.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I've I've had so many of the

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Speaker 1: in my own way, which is not nearly as large

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Speaker 1: and global as yours, But in using this career and

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Speaker 1: platform as I can so many of the same journeys,

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Speaker 1: traveling all around the world, wanting to fix what appear

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Speaker 1: to be the greatest disparities, and then realizing how great

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Speaker 1: the disparities are in our own backyard, and how they're

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Speaker 1: just a little bit better masked, but they're everywhere. And

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Speaker 1: when you realize that it's just the United States and

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Speaker 1: Papa New Guinea that don't have any guaranteed paid leave,

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Speaker 1: and you start to realize, well, that's part of the

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Speaker 1: reason the women don't become the CEO or the president,

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Speaker 1: because we're told if we do start a family, it'll

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Speaker 1: take us out of work. But it shouldn't. Men and

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Speaker 1: women both deserve the opportunity to be at home with

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Speaker 1: their new, expanding families and then to return to the workplace,

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Speaker 1: and other countries and other systems have designed for that,

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Speaker 1: and we simply haven't invested in certainly in women, but

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Speaker 1: we actually haven't invested in families well at all. And

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Speaker 1: so when did that light bulb occur for you? You know,

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Speaker 1: when eventually you decided to start the foundation. You had

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Speaker 1: these young kids, and it came quicker than you wanted

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Speaker 1: it to, which I love that you talk about in

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Speaker 1: the book being like, I don't mean to be ungrateful,

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Speaker 1: but does this have to happen now? Because I think,

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Speaker 1: no matter what, we worry that we're we're doing the

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Speaker 1: wrong thing. We always want to do all the things,

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Speaker 1: but you can only, you know, spend so many plates

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Speaker 1: at once. When did the paid leave issue really strike

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Speaker 1: you as, oh, this has to be one of the

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Speaker 1: drums we beat consistently and talk about everywhere we go.

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Speaker 2: Well, as I was traveling on behalf of the foundation,

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Speaker 2: I would also go to many other high income countries

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Speaker 2: because we were trying to get their governments to you know,

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Speaker 2: some of the work that we were doing as a foundation.

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Speaker 2: It's really up to governments to scale it up. And

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Speaker 2: so as I would be out in the UK, or

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Speaker 2: in France or in Germany, and women would talk about

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Speaker 2: their work and their child rearing, and I was seeing

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Speaker 2: how they would talk about gender. But then when I

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Speaker 2: would also go to the Nordic countries, to Norway and Sweden,

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Speaker 2: and I started talking to men and they're like, we

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Speaker 2: can't believe you all don't have paid family medical leave.

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Speaker 2: And I would interview them and I'd say, well, well, okay,

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Speaker 2: do you take time off? And they're like, well, of

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Speaker 2: course we take time off. Why wouldn't we want to

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Speaker 2: be with our new child, our son, or our daughter.

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Speaker 2: And it had and as I started to study and

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Speaker 2: learn and realize, Okay, what are the two the two

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Speaker 2: biggest barriers that hold women back. It's harassment and abuse

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Speaker 2: on a continuum and paid family medical leave. And when

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Speaker 2: you look when you talk to people in Sweden and

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Speaker 2: Norway and you realize they've had their policy for so long,

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Speaker 2: it's a given that it changed the norm in society,

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Speaker 2: Like norms are hard to change. But men literally say no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm not taking it because I don't want to leave

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Speaker 2: money on the table, Like that might have been why

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Speaker 2: men's first started to take it, but now it's because

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Speaker 2: I want to be part of the child rearing.

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Speaker 1: It just became the norm.

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Speaker 2: And so that's when I started to realize, wow, And

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Speaker 2: that was somewhere around maybe twenty fourteen, that this needed

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Speaker 2: to change. In the United States, this makes absolutely no sense.

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Speaker 2: We have these gendered roles that we just expect somehow

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Speaker 2: women will work and take care of the kids, right,

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't work. I've talked to women all over

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Speaker 2: the US, you know, in the South, in the North,

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Speaker 2: in the East, and the West, and women will say, like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know where to leave my child, like if

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Speaker 2: I don't have a parent to leave them with, and

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Speaker 2: I need to work, if it's a single mom, or

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Speaker 2: when it comes down to my child is sick, Who's

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Speaker 2: going to take them to the pediatrician? I'm the one

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Speaker 2: that's expected to And yet there's a penalty at work

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Speaker 2: for doing that. You just realize, we just we haven't

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Speaker 2: advanced like some of these other societies have, particularly in

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Speaker 2: the Nordic region, but all over the world that people

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Speaker 2: are doing paid family medical.

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Speaker 1: Leave, absolutely and what that does is it actually it's

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Speaker 1: not just a disservice to these new families, it's a

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Speaker 1: disservice to our society because you see, and I so

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Speaker 1: appreciate that you talk about these truths so often when

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Speaker 1: you're working around the world, because I think everybody needs

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Speaker 1: to hear them, and they need to hear them regularly.

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Speaker 1: To your point, so we can change habits or norms

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Speaker 1: when women, but families are supported countries do better economically, right,

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Speaker 1: they become not only do their GDPs increase, they become

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Speaker 1: more technologically innovative. They become places where new ideas are

434
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: born and where leaps in terms of human growth happen.

435
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: And so really, when you invest in taking care of families,

436
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: you build a better world. It's not just a moral issue,

437
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: it's also a mathematical one. It's an economic one. And

438
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: I think where the math and the morals meet should

439
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: always be the zone we're aiming for.

440
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: Right, definitely, and because we do have to realize that

441
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 2: women are, by and large around the world, the center

442
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 2: of the family, and if she does well, her children

443
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 2: have a better chance and the family has a better

444
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: chance of thriving. If she's not doing well, the converse

445
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 2: is true, the children are less likely to thrive, right.

446
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 2: And so that's why I always say we need to

447
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 2: lift women up, just remove the barriers that hold them

448
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 2: down and do what we can to lift them up,

449
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: because they lift up everybody else. And you're absolutely right,

450
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 2: and it comes down to economics. It has a ripple

451
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: effect throughout society.

452
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: Absolutely and has has learning so much of this because

453
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: I'll tell you anytime I get a nugget of information

454
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: like that, you know, there's some white paper or some

455
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,199
Speaker 1: great new piece of research from a Nordic country, as

456
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: you say, comes out. It makes me feel so gleeful

457
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: because because it reinforces the knowing, the knowing that we deserve,

458
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 1: the support can now also be proven. And I guess

459
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: I wonder, as someone who holds such great knowing, does

460
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: that kind of make you reflect on where some of

461
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: that expectation around women and even personally for you, that

462
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: guilt spiral that you talked about in trying to balance

463
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 1: launching the foundation and having three young kids, how that

464
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 1: spiral kind of you know, becomes like a ninja star

465
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: if you will, Because every woman I know who has

466
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: a family, or runs a company, or has a busy

467
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: life or is working two jobs, you know, any fill

468
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: in the blank feels like no matter what choice they're making,

469
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: it might be the wrong one. And you said something

470
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: in your book about this guilt spiral that is so

471
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: common for us. I wrote it in all caps in

472
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: my notebook that guilt is an indulgence and that realizing

473
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: that changed everything for you because it made you realize

474
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: guilt is focused on me, on us and you're trying

475
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: to focus out around you. I would imagine it feels doubly, triply,

476
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: quadruply true with all this data. But when you look

477
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: back at when you realize that that aha moment, can

478
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about that, where it came

479
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: from and how it had a ripple effect for you

480
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: personally in your life.

481
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 2: Sure. I finally, when my kids were about middle school age,

482
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: learned this concept that had been come forward by a

483
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: psychologist in the UK about good enough parenting and the

484
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: concept of good enough parenting. They've gone out and collected

485
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 2: a lot of data over time that one good enough

486
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: parents and kids thrive. They just need one good enough adult.

487
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: And sometimes it's not even the parents. Let's say both

488
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: parents are struggling with something right and balancing a lot.

489
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: If they can have a coach who believes in them,

490
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 2: they can have a teacher who believes in them, but

491
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: that consistent nurturing of the child, then the child has

492
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 2: the ability to thrive. And once I could ask myself,

493
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: I was so caught up in this indulgence, as you say,

494
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 2: of the perfect parent. Whatever the notion of the perfect

495
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 2: parent is, it was some form. I think of my

496
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: mom who didn't work when I was younger. She worked

497
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 2: more when I was older. But you know, the be

498
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: there all the time. You know that that notion just

499
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: isn't isn't right, Like there is no such thing. There's

500
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: all kinds of parenting in the world, right, and kids

501
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: thrive in different ways. And so it was more saying

502
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: to myself, you know, going to my journal and saying, hmm,

503
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: am I a good enough parent? Am I good enough?

504
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 2: And I could start to answer the question. I wrote

505
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: down a few things I was doing, like, by gosh,

506
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 2: I am a good enough parent, So guess what my

507
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: kids are going to thrive? And so I could let

508
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 2: down the pressure on myself of perfectionism and on them.

509
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: It just kind of took the whole pressure level down

510
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 2: in the household and I could be like, yeah, they're

511
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 2: gonna turn out okay, Like I'm everything right, you know,

512
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: And but that's okay too. My mom didn't get everything

513
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 2: right right, but she got enough of it right that

514
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 2: you know, we for thrived as children.

515
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And to your point, what a great thing to

516
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: teach your children that they have a village, that their

517
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: coach is someone they can look up to, that their

518
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: auntie is someone they can always call with a problem

519
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: that their mentor at their internship or their summer job

520
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: is worth listening to. What it strikes me as is

521
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: a wonderful way to build an emotionally intelligent, communicative, and

522
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: resilient child.

523
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 2: Definitely, And I think you can also teach them. What

524
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 2: I learned later was also when they were more in

525
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 2: the high school ages, could you're also teaching them rupture

526
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 2: and repair? Like maybe you had intended to get to

527
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: that activity after school, you know, and they're on the field,

528
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 2: but oops, you got stuck in traffic, or you got

529
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 2: stuck on a phone call and you arrived late and

530
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 2: you missed the goal, or you missed the thing that

531
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: they were you know, there to do, okay, or maybe

532
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: there's a day. I certainly had days where I lost

533
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 2: my temper and I I hadn't sure, but going back

534
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: and apologizing, like taking responsibility and then changing your actions

535
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 2: in the future, you can teach your kids rupture and repair.

536
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: Yes I ruptured, I raised my voice at you because

537
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: I was stressed about something else, but that's no excuse,

538
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 2: Like I take responsibility, and so what it teaches them

539
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: because the truth is in any healthy relationship a friendship,

540
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 2: an intimate partner relationship, a work colleague. There will be

541
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: rupture and repair, but it's really how you do the repair.

542
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: And that was another concept. I was like, Oh, it's okay,

543
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: Like it's okay, and I'll teach them something just by

544
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: being me and being real about the relationship and my

545
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: faults and my mistakes exactly.

546
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: And I think it's such a healthier modality and maybe

547
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: strikes me, as you know, such a person point of excitement,

548
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,719
Speaker 1: because I too, am a recovering perfectionist. And the thing

549
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: that undid it for me, you know, in the way

550
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: that you talk about this idea that guilt is an

551
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: indulgence being so revelatory. The thing that was the big

552
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: sort of thought bomb for me was when a friend said,

553
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: don't you understand how toxic perfectionism is. Perfect doesn't exist.

554
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: So if you've been raised or cultured to be a perfectionist,

555
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: you've actually been raised to believe you're a failure. And

556
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:40,719
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, this thing rather than

557
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: just being a human who does great on some days

558
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: and not so great on others, and who tries to

559
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: be a good sum total of their parts, this idea

560
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: that if you're not perfect, you're failing. Really just sets

561
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: us up for failure. So what a gorgeous, more just

562
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: more human way to live. To be a real person

563
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: trying their best.

564
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 2: That's right, a real person in the world. And you're

565
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 2: gonna stumble and fall some days, you're gonna be tired,

566
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 2: you might be a little grouchy, but you know, on

567
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 2: the next day you get up, you might be kind

568
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: of another version of your best self. And it's okay

569
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 2: because it also gives other people permission to be their

570
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 2: full self. Like as I've said to my kids many times,

571
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: my mother said it to me, which is all emotions

572
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 2: are okay, all of them, mear anger, you know, even

573
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: all the ones you would think of as negative emotions

574
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: and all the positive emotions. All emotions are okay. It's

575
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 2: what you do with them, and so you know, and

576
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 2: it's also that okay. So maybe you were in anxious

577
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 2: one day and so you weren't your nicest self. Again,

578
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 2: you can go back and repair with that person or

579
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 2: just say I'm so sorry I was having a bad day,

580
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 2: and it gives them permission later to have a bad day, right.

581
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, and to not have it feel so f Yeah,

582
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: nothing has to be such a catastrophe. Even your worst

583
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: day is something that you know, a year from now

584
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: you're going to reflect on and realize it taught you

585
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: something and it's just kind of a blip on the radar.

586
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's that that resiliency. And on

587
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 1: the subject of resilience, and let me preface the question

588
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: by saying, listen, if anybody yets not wanting, you know,

589
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: a divorce or a man to be your identity as

590
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: an individual or a woman, it is me. I guess

591
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: I'm curious because you've You've spoken about this, I think,

592
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: really eloquently and beautifully for someone who I'm sure has

593
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: been bombarded with less than eloquent and beautiful questions on

594
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: the subject of that sort of rip and then a

595
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: personal repair, if you will. What has struck me? Having

596
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: gone through it a little more recently than you, and

597
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: I've decided to look up all the women I admire

598
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 1: been through it and say, like, what have you said

599
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: that will give me some guidance here that I can

600
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: read it to in the morning. You've spoken really beautifully

601
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: about how you wanted to thoughtfully reflect on this. Because

602
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: you are a public figure, there's just no way not to.

603
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: I feel that. For me, what it came down to was, oh,

604
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: I have to admit I think I've made a mistake.

605
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: There are certain things I don't want a model for

606
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: the children. I know I want to be a mother too,

607
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: And I know that can be a very shattering experience

608
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: for women who go through it in the same kind

609
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: of time period that I did. And I really I

610
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: thought so much about your story and about other women

611
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: I know who have experienced that kind of shift or

612
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: transition in that later stage, you know. And for you,

613
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: you were married for twenty seven years, you did raise

614
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 1: all these babies together. Obviously, you did some gorgeous things together.

615
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 1: You launched one of the world's most beautiful and accomplished

616
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: philanthropic foundations that you ran, and you advocated as this

617
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: sort of superwoman in my eyes, and all my friends

618
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: who you know, when we got started, were like, yeah,

619
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 1: we'll go to that conference, Yeah we'll get on that plane.

620
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: Sure we'll show up at this place. Yeah you want

621
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 1: to go bug everybody in Congress. Let's go, let's stage

622
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 1: a protest in Washington. Like we didn't know what we

623
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 1: were doing, but we looked at people like you and said, well, look,

624
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: it's possible. And I guess I just wonder and it

625
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a long answer. I realize I've

626
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: been rambling about this for a long time because I've

627
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 1: thought a lot about it, clearly, but for you knowing

628
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: that your story and your example can actually be a

629
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: gift in terms of resiliency. And I don't mean about

630
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: even the kids, or your ex or anyone, but you,

631
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 1: the woman Melinda, who if you'd gone through this privately

632
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: in another life, you wouldn't have to talk about it

633
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: out in the world. Is there like, is there a

634
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: nugget of wisdom or an aha moment you had that

635
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 1: made you know that even though the world would be watching,

636
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: which is why so many people stay, that made you

637
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: know that you deserved to choose yourself, that you deserved

638
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 1: to carve a new path, that you deserved, especially as

639
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: the mother of girls, to say I want something different, deeper,

640
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: better for this next phase in my life. Because I

641
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: know there's a lot of women that would give anything

642
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: for that knowing to come to them when they're in

643
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 1: the moment of do I stay or do I go?

644
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And one thing I would say to anybody going

645
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 2: through this look, it's just painful, and the knowing comes,

646
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 2: and you might push it way for a while, like

647
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 2: so I will tell you the knowing came that I'm like, no, no, no,

648
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: I can't make this work. Knowing came, No, I can

649
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 2: make this work. Knowing came make So that is, at

650
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 2: least for me, that was a normal part of the process.

651
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 2: But at least for me in the end, I had

652
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 2: to look. You know, when you point your finger at

653
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: somebody else, they say you have to look at the

654
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: three fingers pointing back at yourself, right, yes, you know, yes,

655
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 2: And I realized there had been some problems it. But ultimately,

656
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 2: if I was pointing the finger at that person saying

657
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 2: you betrayed me, I had to look at my three

658
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 2: fingers pointing back at myself and saying, I'm betraying myself

659
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 2: and who I am. If I stay I have certain

660
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: values and if I cannot live those values out in

661
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,280
Speaker 2: this relationship of who I am and what I believe,

662
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 2: that I'm betraying myself. And I thought, how horrible is that?

663
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 2: Do I want to betray myself?

664
00:39:59,640 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 1: Yeah?

665
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 2: No, And so that helped me have the courage to

666
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 2: eventually do what I did. And the other thing I

667
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 2: say to people who you know. Some people will come

668
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 2: and talk to me, who are you know contemplating at

669
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: a divorce, And I'll say, look, it is not easy,

670
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: and you know, I wouldn't wish it on any family,

671
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: but I will tell you when it's over, and you know,

672
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 2: you go through a period of healing. You don't know

673
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: what it is. I don't know what it is, but

674
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 2: something beautiful will grow on the other side. So by

675
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 2: letting go of something, you may not know what you're

676
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 2: going to and you may not even know it for

677
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 2: a few years, but something beautiful will come on the

678
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 2: other side, and you will know yourself even better and

679
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 2: you'll be more resilient for whatever the next big change

680
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 2: in life is that comes. Yeah.

681
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think if you can get over the fear

682
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: of the unknown, you can actually wind up discovering the

683
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: joy of the unexpected. That's on the other side of it.

684
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: Definitely, most definitely, And you just have to have the

685
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 2: courage to say, uh, I may not know what's coming next,

686
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 2: but okay, out there somewhere is something. And then but

687
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 2: you learn from that courage. It's just like when we

688
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: teach our kids. Let's say they have to step into

689
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 2: a new friendship or a new classroom or a new situation.

690
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: Where is their self esteem built and where's the resilience built?

691
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 2: By actually taking that step, that's how they come to

692
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 2: know what they're capable of and what's inside of them.

693
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 2: And so it's the same way for us as women

694
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,439
Speaker 2: or men, no matter what age we are, we still

695
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 2: have to have the courage to take that heart or

696
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 2: that uncomfortable step, no matter what.

697
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just think it's really beautiful. Thank you, And

698
00:41:54,920 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: now a word from our sponsors. Did you have certain

699
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: self care practices because you knew the world would be

700
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: paying attention? Like did you just delete everything off your phone?

701
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: Did you just lock your phone in a safe? Like

702
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 1: I had a couple of days where I was like

703
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 1: I need to leave the house and I need to

704
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 1: leave any electronic tether here and I need to just

705
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: be outside, you know. And then the next day I

706
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 1: was like, maybe I need to just power the thing off,

707
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: but have the music because the music helps on the walk.

708
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: Like I really was, it was sort of like doing

709
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: a paint by numbers when the numbers have been erased.

710
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,439
Speaker 1: What were your sort of tools for your own self care?

711
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 2: I had developed a lot of tools for self care

712
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 2: in that in between space, you know, where once you

713
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 2: have made the decision that you need to leave, but

714
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 2: then there's you know, a time before it can be

715
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 2: actually happen and be executed right.

716
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: I'd imagine, also, especially at the echelon of Life Global Foundation,

717
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine the complexity. The paperwork nearly killed me.

718
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 2: I can't.

719
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 1: I can't fathom it for you. So just hats off

720
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: that you've made it to the other side, and you

721
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: haven't you're not in the corner like eating your own hair.

722
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 2: I'm amazed. There are a few days I could have

723
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 2: done that, but I was lucky enough to be surrounded

724
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,479
Speaker 2: by an amazing tiny team of people helping me write.

725
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 2: But I had to learn self care during that in

726
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: between time where I didn't know when the divorce would

727
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 2: get announced, how it would all get split up, what

728
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 2: was to come. That's when I developed all my self

729
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 2: care techniques. And that was included, you know, walking with

730
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: a friend at a moment's notice, walking with a friends,

731
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 2: some friends on a routine basis. I talk about therapy

732
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 2: in the book, which I never expected to write about,

733
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 2: and I was a skeptical of therapy, but talking to

734
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 2: my therapist. Sometimes I just needed to reach out to

735
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: friends who had no idea that I was separated, just

736
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 2: to go have some fun. Or other times I was

737
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 2: saying to somebody, this morning, I would just listen to

738
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 2: a book, a piece of fiction, and that would just

739
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 2: take me away. But a lot being out in nature

740
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: helped kind of just get me away from a very

741
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 2: tense situation. So I had all those self care tools.

742
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 2: Then when it went public, and so to be honest,

743
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 2: I had already gone through the hardest part behind the scenes,

744
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 2: and so then it was just kind of like, Okay,

745
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 2: finally it's out there, right, Yeah, And I didn't go

746
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 2: look at my phone. My youngest daughter would show me

747
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 2: a few things and I'd be like, okay, that's enough.

748
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 2: You know. I go outside and you know, sit by

749
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:43,760
Speaker 2: the lake, listen to some birds. I like to swing.

750
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: We had a swing set in our yard back then,

751
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 2: so I go swing.

752
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is interesting, the little things, you know, as

753
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: time would have it. My my best friend in the world.

754
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: Who is I mean, she's my everything, She's my business partner,

755
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: you know, my my sister. For all intents and purposes.

756
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: We went through this at exactly the same time, in

757
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: exactly the same summer. It was, you know, a wild time,

758
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,720
Speaker 1: and out of the woodwork came so many other friends.

759
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, best friend from college, one of my dearest

760
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: friends from my activist space, one of my friends, you know,

761
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 1: dealing with a spouse with addiction. Like, we had this

762
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: sort of cocoon of women. And I remember on the

763
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: day that I knew my news would go public and

764
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,720
Speaker 1: I was like, oh God, my best friend FaceTime from Detroit,

765
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: one of my other friends came over and we walked

766
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: around the house. We saged my whole house together. Knowing

767
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 1: we were on a countdown, I was like, Okay, six

768
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 1: more minutes. And we did this whole little ceremony together.

769
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 1: And then we had a girlfriend who was refreshing the internet,

770
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: and the minute it hit she was like, it's up.

771
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: We popped a bottle of champagne because they were like,

772
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 1: we're just going to reframe this for you. This doesn't

773
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: have to be a sad thing. We're so proud out

774
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: of you. And after that, I turned my phone on

775
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: airplane mode and I literally put it away for three days.

776
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: It was a Friday. I was like I'll turn it

777
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 1: back on on Monday.

778
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 2: Perfect.

779
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: Anybody who really needs to talk to me, you can

780
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 1: call my landline from nineteen ninety six and that'll be that.

781
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: And it was this sort of gorgeous thing, and it

782
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: was to your point. The community of women, that village,

783
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 1: that sisterhood. They helped me take something that in the

784
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: in between had been so difficult and painful and scary,

785
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: and they turned it into a moment where I got

786
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,760
Speaker 1: to celebrate my own courage. And it was so simple

787
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: and so sweet. And that is the thing I come

788
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: back to again and again for people like yourself or

789
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 1: myself who can't go through private things privately. And I

790
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: just think, well, if we can set that little example,

791
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: if we can encourage another group of friends to pop

792
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: a bottle of champagne for somebody I'm in.

793
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 2: And I think you said one other important thing, which

794
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 2: is to name internally what we are good at. And

795
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 2: I think sometimes we don't see it, like maybe you

796
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 2: didn't see the courage, but your friends saw the courage.

797
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 2: And so for your friends to name that attribute in

798
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 2: you and celebrate that attribute, I think as women, that's

799
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 2: another really healthy thing that we can.

800
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 1: Get I do too, I really do too, and it's

801
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: it is the sort of thing that builds resiliency so

802
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: that you can have touch points where you really connect

803
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: to yourself in moments of joy or sorrow. You know,

804
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: you you talk in the third chapter of your book

805
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 1: about such a heavy experience that sadly, I think when

806
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 1: you get to a certain age we can all expect.

807
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: And you lost a dear friend.

808
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: I mean who was young, you.

809
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: Know, thirty seven or thirty eight, I believe you said,

810
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: your friend John. And going through cancer and going through

811
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:02,439
Speaker 1: loss with someone very surreal thing when a friend your

812
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: age passes away and you write about how you learned

813
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: to grieve and how you were grieving in community and

814
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: in friendship with you know, his wife, and it's so devastating,

815
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: but it's so uplifting at the same time. You know,

816
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: as a reader who's now been through this sort of

817
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: shock in my own life, I just thought, Wow, this

818
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: is such a beautiful handbook in a way for how

819
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: to experience something like this and come out of it

820
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 1: both having held your own grief authentically, not you know,

821
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: turning your back on yourself or your experience, and realizing

822
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: how you can still claim the joy of what it

823
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 1: was out of it is the lesson that you had

824
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 1: at that time. Now, in hindsight, do you think that

825
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: John has kind of continued to be a teacher for

826
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: you in your life?

827
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 2: For sure, both in how he lived his life. You know,

828
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: we were in a very rough and tumble tech industry,

829
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 2: in a pretty rough and tumble culture at Microsoft, right,

830
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: a lot of sharp elbows creating amazing things, and we were, Uh.

831
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 2: It was energetic and fun in a certain way, but

832
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 2: it was tough. And so to see him live his

833
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 2: life as himself, I mean, there wasn't a person that

834
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 2: you'd go around and you just knew who the good

835
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 2: people were in the company, and he was one of them.

836
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 2: He was celebrated for that and was himself. And so

837
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 2: by getting to write about him in this book, I

838
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 2: think I've gotten to keep alive a bit who he was.

839
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 2: And one of his three he left, as I say

840
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 2: in the book, three very young children behind, who who

841
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 2: I still know. And one of his daughters came to

842
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 2: one of my book events and I talked to her

843
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 2: for a while afterwards, and she said, you know, Melinda,

844
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: this has been so helpful. It's been cathartic for me.

845
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 2: To see how you saw my dad. Because I didn't

846
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 2: get to know him I was little. I read about him.

847
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 2: You know, my mom's told me stories my aunts and uncles,

848
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 2: but she said, to hear how he was as a

849
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 2: friend and then be able to share that with my friends,

850
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 2: she said, or my therapist, or my community. They get

851
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:31,359
Speaker 2: to see my father in a different way than even

852
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 2: as I've described him. And so that's been a gift

853
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 2: that I think still comes like he he comes through

854
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 2: those stories. But as I talk about in the book,

855
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 2: what I learned was these concentric circles around the person

856
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 2: who's in the center, who is going through let's say,

857
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 2: a tough illness or potentially a death. You have to

858
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 2: really understand which ring you are on relative to that person.

859
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 2: Are you in that innermost ring, are you family? Are

860
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 2: you in the next ring of friendship? Are you two

861
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 2: or three rings or four rings out? And what you

862
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 2: do is you always provide comfort towards the center of

863
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 2: those rings, everybody who's the closest and that person, and

864
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 2: you dump your grief to people who are on the

865
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 2: outside of those rings further out right wow, so that

866
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 2: you don't take your issues. And because of course I

867
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 2: was grieving as I knew we were going to lose him.

868
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 2: But I'm not going to take that to him or

869
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 2: to his wife, Emmy. Right, that's completely putting my issue

870
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 2: on them. I just want to be support to them.

871
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 2: But I could grieve to my other friends who knew

872
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 2: him but weren't as close to him. Right.

873
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something you can model reading about it. It's

874
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: a lesson you can take with you, and I think

875
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: that that is one of the marks of a beautiful book.

876
00:51:50,520 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, I want

877
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: to pivot, which is a word I know you love

878
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,919
Speaker 1: because I did this with Michelle Obama and you guys

879
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: have really amazing like mentor but also wonderful, approachable woman energy,

880
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 1: and I loved reading about her in your book. And

881
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: I want to just ask you like a quick fun

882
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,439
Speaker 1: round of questions and then I'll ask you my last

883
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: and most excited or most most precious. But when you

884
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: talk about your friends, who like, who's your girl crew,

885
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: who do you call, who are your people, who do

886
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: you go on walks with? What does that world look

887
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: like for you in your village?

888
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 2: Well, I talk about these three women that I call

889
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 2: my truth counsel. One of them is Charlotte Geimon. I

890
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 2: met her within the first three weeks of starting at Microsoft.

891
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 2: Another one is Emmy Nielson, who's the white was the

892
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,720
Speaker 2: wife of the friend John who I met at Microsoft

893
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 2: who passed away. And another one is Killian No And

894
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 2: she moved move to Seattle when her husband took a

895
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 2: job in Seattle, and she literally left an entire organization

896
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 2: that she started in Washington, d C. And restarted here

897
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:14,879
Speaker 2: in Seattle. And so they are my Monday morning walking group.

898
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 2: We text many, many, many times a week. I still

899
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 2: am very very close to my high school friend Mary Lehman.

900
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 2: We met on the first day of high school, literally

901
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 2: the first day. And she's somebody that you know, I've

902
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 2: reached out to in an emergency when I need something,

903
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 2: or she's reached out when I'm really joyful or vice versa.

904
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 2: She'll actually see my parents this weekend moraal day weekend

905
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:41,879
Speaker 2: when she's down near where they live as she goes

906
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 2: to her nephew's graduation. So, yeah, those are some of

907
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 2: my community. Yeah, I think.

908
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: About my high school girl text thread and you know,

909
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: my best girlfriends like Nia, who I was telling you

910
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: about it is these little crews of women I think

911
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 1: really become some of our built box of self when

912
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: you're not walking with them, when you're maybe going out

913
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: for like a nice a nice girls dinner. What's your

914
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: drink of choice?

915
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 2: Oh gosh it. For years it was a lemon drop,

916
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 2: and now I would say it's a Manhattan. Pretty much

917
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 2: wherever I go, I order Manhattan.

918
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: Very chic. I went through an old fashioned phase and

919
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: I loved when I'd order that at a bar and

920
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: a bartender would kind of raise his eyebrows at me,

921
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: and I'd be like, Yeah, I've really done it. Look

922
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: at me. What do you think is your dream meal?

923
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 2: Oh? My dream meal is Mexican food. I grew up

924
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: in Dallas, and anything with guacamolean chips, be it a taco,

925
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 2: be it enchiladas. Just sign me up.

926
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 1: I have a literal little parking lot hut taco place

927
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 1: in La. Next time you're on the West Coast, I'm going.

928
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 2: To take you. Okay, great, What is a place that

929
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 2: you would.

930
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: Love to visit if you could visit completely anonymously, just

931
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 1: to wander around for a day.

932
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 2: Oh well, first of all, I can still go many

933
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 2: places anonymously. It's wonderful. Yes, it's wonderful.

934
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: That shocks me.

935
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 2: And oh gosh, Sydney, Australia, it's just it's a city

936
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 2: I love to walk in. I love the nature there,

937
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 2: I love the architecture. I like the people and the beaches.

938
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so cool.

939
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 2: Oh I just love that.

940
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: Okay, So I have another pivot for you, And this

941
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:31,280
Speaker 1: is a question about finance. What you're doing at Pivotal Ventures.

942
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: The way that you are upending some of the venture

943
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: capital world and investing in women really inspires me. Nia

944
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 1: and I have been on a very similar journey, you know,

945
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: doing a lot of philanthropic work together and petitioning for

946
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 1: a lot of corporate social responsibility checks. We eventually came

947
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: to a realization and in the words of you know,

948
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: the late great Desmond too too, you can only pull

949
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: people out of the river for long enough before you

950
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: walk upstream and figure out who's pushing them in. And

951
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:05,839
Speaker 1: the push seems to come from inequity in the world, right,

952
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: And if you want to change equality, you have to

953
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 1: change the way money moves. Yes, and so we also

954
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: work in venture now and you are a north star

955
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 1: for us. The way that you work and what you

956
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,919
Speaker 1: all do. And I guess I just wonder for any

957
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: young women who want to get into investing, or who

958
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 1: maybe are early in their careers in finance, what have

959
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: you learned since you shifted your sole focus from being

960
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:39,399
Speaker 1: philanthropic into encompassing finance, And what advice would you give

961
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 1: to women who really want to do well and do good.

962
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 2: What I say to women who choose to do investing

963
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 2: is invest in the things that are closest to you

964
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:56,840
Speaker 2: and that are proximal and that you feel like you

965
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 2: can get your hands around and know. So one of

966
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 2: the things as I do and I believe you do,

967
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 2: is I invest in, for instance, limited partners who invest

968
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 2: in more women led companies. Why do I do that?

969
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 2: Because so often women's businesses don't get capitalized, and yet

970
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 2: they have an incredible lens, not a better lens, not

971
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 2: a worse lens than men, just a different lens on society.

972
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 2: And so some of the limited partners that I've invested

973
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 2: in who've invested in others, are you know some of

974
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 2: the businesses are turn out to be around women's healthcare,

975
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 2: like statewide in a whole state, holistic health for women,

976
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 2: or have to do with mental health, for people in

977
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 2: the postpartum phase, or maybe young people teens going through

978
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 2: mental health crisis or eating disorders. Like, it's just they

979
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 2: have a different lens even on caregiving, because more of

980
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:56,440
Speaker 2: them have now caregived for not just kids, but elderly parents.

981
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 2: So I just say, you know, invest in people who

982
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 2: are going to and everybody else and who have a

983
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 2: different lens.

984
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: Yes, And you're what I'm hearing you say goes back

985
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: to that point about the math and the morals, because

986
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: they meet. Because if you are not investing in fifty

987
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: one percent of the economy, I always say you're missing

988
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: out on fifty one percent of their returns, definitely, And

989
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: so it feels really exciting to see people waking up

990
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 1: to this and having this sort of aha moment out

991
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 1: in that space.

992
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 2: And I think it takes a bit of courage to

993
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 2: invest in a different way. I mean, why do you

994
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 2: see a lot of vcs investing in the same types

995
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 2: of businesses. It's because it's what they know or they've

996
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 2: gotten used to. But so we're using some courage to

997
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 2: invest in things we haven't seen get capitalized before. But

998
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 2: one thing I do know about finance is people don't

999
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 2: like to leave money on the table. So when you're

1000
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:55,479
Speaker 2: investment thesis is played out, give us you know takes

1001
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 2: eight ten years. Fine. I have a feeling you'll see

1002
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 2: a lot of other people crowding in because I agree,

1003
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 2: why did I leave? You know, why didn't I look

1004
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 2: at that sector?

1005
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 1: I agree. It's the same way I feel about what

1006
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 1: we do at our fund. We do a lot of

1007
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: work in Michigan because we're very passionate about the Midwest,

1008
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 1: and a lot of people don't get it, and I'm like,

1009
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 1: do you really want to miss it out? I don't

1010
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 1: think so, And so it feels exciting to remind people

1011
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 1: of that. And gosh, I just I think the whole

1012
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 1: lens of your world is exciting. All of it is motivating,

1013
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 1: I know for me and for so many you know

1014
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 1: of my friends who were all absolutely geeked that I

1015
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: was going to get to talk to you today. I'm

1016
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 1: going to ask you my favorite question to end an

1017
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 1: interview with, and someday I'll ask you the rest. When

1018
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 1: you look out at the rest of the year, your

1019
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 1: summer which is about to hit, thankfully, and the way

1020
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 1: that you think about these next chapters that are coming

1021
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 1: after having reflected on so many chapters in your life

1022
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 1: in your book so beautifully, when you look forward, what

1023
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 1: feels like your work in progress?

1024
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 2: My work in progress on myself or in my company.

1025
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 1: Either both, whatever strikes you.

1026
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 2: I think I'm always a work in progress. I hope

1027
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 2: I always am. But for me, I feel like I've

1028
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 2: learned to have courage and to trust other people a lot.

1029
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 2: So as my team brings forward ideas or as I

1030
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 2: see something new, I feel like I have much more

1031
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 2: the courage these days last ten years to go explore

1032
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 2: whole new areas. And so for me, that's just exciting.

1033
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 2: It goes back to that word discover. What else can

1034
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 2: I discover? You know? What else should we be funding

1035
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 2: that we're not seeing right now? What is somebody else

1036
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 2: seeing that I'm not seeing? So for me, it's all

1037
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 2: about finding partners who have good ideas and making sure

1038
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 2: we fund them, because to me, those are the force

1039
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 2: multipliers in life, and that just excites me. The sort

1040
01:00:56,040 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 2: of undiscovered yet both in work and in inside of

1041
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 2: myself of who I am. To me, that's always exciting.

1042
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 1: You're an explorer, yeah, I guess so. I love it.

1043
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 1: I love it being a modern day Explorer feels right.

1044
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 1: Thank you, yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for

1045
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: sharing you know, your thoughts reflections, not only in the

1046
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 1: book but on the show today. It's just been an

1047
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 1: absolute joy.

1048
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having me and for

1049
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 2: all you're doing through your activism and you're investing. I

1050
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 2: just really admire it too, so back at you.

1051
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 1: You paved the way for us, so thank you so

1052
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,479
Speaker 1: much for giving us an example. Many of us didn't

1053
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: grow up with it at home, so it really has

1054
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 1: been incredibly meaningful to you know, be out in the

1055
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 1: world and always get to see what you're up to.

1056
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you so much.

1057
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 1: Bye bye,