WEBVTT - Businessweek Extra - Gen. Stanley McChrystal 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.600 This is Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Jason 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:09.280 Kelly and I'm Carol Masser. Welcome to the Bloomberg Business 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.039 Week Extra. It's our weekly podcast bringing you an in 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.080 depth interview you will not hear anywhere else. And this 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.560 week we've got retired four star General Stanley McCrystal. He 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:21.720 talked about so many different things. Talked about the world 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:23.479 that we currently live in, but he also talked about 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.560 technology and not letting it get in the way of relationships. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.960 He also talked about crises, his own personal crisis, and 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:33.280 how basically his life as he knew it changed in 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:37.520 about twenty four hours. So I want to ask you, Um, 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:40.080 did you work out this morning? I did runner or 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:42.000 another thing. Today was a gym day, so I went 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:47.320 to the gym. Does the gym or run every day? Um? 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:49.279 Used to sleep four hours? To sleep more? Now, right, 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:51.880 I do? I say as much I can now probably 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.440 fall asleep. Don't do that, please. And you haven't anything 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:57.560 to eat today a bit because you eat one meal 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.240 a day and you've been doing that for years, about 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.280 forty years. Why well, I thought it was when I 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:05.640 was a lieutenant. I thought I was getting fat. So 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:08.280 I started this and people think it's some kind of 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:11.479 zen thing. Now it's just a habit. Yeah, you're kind 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:13.160 of in right now. What I do? Yeah, my wife 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.320 eats like seven meals a day, so we balanced out. 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:17.880 I'm like your wife. Um, I want to talk a 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:19.880 bunch about a bunch of things. And I think what 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:21.880 I wanted to do is I just pulled off a 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:24.480 couple of stories off of Bloomberg today and I just 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.080 wondered how people lead in this environment. Um. The president 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:30.720 tweeting this, this is our normal routine. We start with 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:36.160 the presidential tweets. He blasted Mario draggy. Uh. He blasted 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.319 the China for weak currencies. We had that going on. 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.920 He also is calling the attacks the ship attacks in 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.080 the Persian Gulf as minor. But in the meantime, the 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:47.640 US is adding troops in the Middle East. We have 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:50.400 investors saying we haven't been this barish since the two 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.960 thousand eight financial crisis. Uh. And the world's top bike 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:57.760 maker saying the era of made in China is over. Um. 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.440 And then there's Facebook wanting to put out a currency. 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.880 It's on cryptocurrency to rival the US dollar. We have 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:06.960 so many things being thrown at us from so many 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:10.560 different angles. You've had to witness that. You know, your 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:15.000 many years in Afghanistan, and you get word from Washington, 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.320 you get word from your front line and your troops, um, 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:21.080 your peers. How do you do it? How do you know? 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.000 And these guys are dealing with lots of different things. Well, 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.000 it's interesting. When I was a very young officer, you 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.600 didn't get much intelligence. So you'd be in a command 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.520 center and everybody be waiting for intelligence reports come in 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:33.560 and they'd grab them and it's spent time. Then the 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:35.600 opposite occurred about two thirds of the way through my 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:39.079 career with information technology, and then it came in and floods, 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:41.760 and then you said, well, how do you figure out 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.600 how to curate that? What's important? Who prioritizes it for 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.800 the leader? I don't think we've ever completely figured that out. 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.080 What what we went to as I was a senior 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.920 leader was I didn't operate in a private office. I 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:57.680 operated in what we call the situation awareness room, and 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.639 I kind of marinated in the information. I didn't stop 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.320 and just get a set of briefings. You marinated it 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.519 because your situational awareness is critical. You have to have context. 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:11.440 Every decision you make has to have context. So you 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:15.360 start to develop the ability to make sure information flows 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.359 constantly to as many people as possible, and then when 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:23.160 decisions come up, you start with a general understanding and 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:25.320 the key thing is not to try to induce more 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.240 uncertainty into that, particularly with false information. Well, it's interesting 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:32.160 and technology plays into this big time. And you know, 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:35.760 I watched um some of your TED talks online and 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:38.400 I recommend everybody do it because it was really fascinating. 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.080 You talked a lot about technology and this need for 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.120 more and more and more. This is the world we 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:46.320 live in and to be more and more connected. But 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:49.440 there's something you said your take on technology. Number one, 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:51.960 you were enamored with it. Number two, it seduced you, 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:55.120 and number three you were bound by it. That's not good. Yeah, 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:58.560 it's but it's important to understand that when I describe 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.160 our situational werness room, we had tend to twelve flat 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:03.920 panel screens, and on a given evening when we're doing 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.400 a lot of ops, there's a separate actual operation occurring 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:10.120 in all of those times. Helicopters landing, people doing raids, 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.560 things like that, and there's this temptation to look at 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.480 that and have a two dimensional picture of what's happening 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:18.360 on the ground. And we actually have the technology where 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:21.440 you could listen to their radio talks internal to the 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.080 raid force, and you could talk to them if you 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:28.279 wanted to. But I never once did that, because there's 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:32.240 this deception that you know what's going on because from 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.440 ten thousand feet you have this high definition view of it. 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.040 In reality, you don't. You don't know how cold it is, 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.279 you don't hear the crack of the bullets, you're not tired. 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:44.880 The person on the ground has to do that. However, 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.440 what you can do is you can understand the broader situation. 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.960 You can posture yourself so that as that force on 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:54.599 the ground, you start to see things happen. Instead of 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.000 telling them what to do, you tell them what's happening. 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:02.440 You position reinforcements, you position medical evacuation, you position fire support, 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.520 and then you offer it to them, you say this 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.120 is available, this is so and so, and but you 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:12.080 can't take over because one, you're not in the right 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.520 place to make the decision. You're not the right person 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.640 to make the decision. And you've got to understand that 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:21.560 it's deception to pretend that you are omniscient. So trust 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:23.200 the folks that are on the ground. You have to 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.520 so staying with technology for a moment, though, I think 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.080 you also talk a lot about this whole idea of 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.560 feeling like you're connected and then really having connected relationships, 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:34.599 and you have to be very careful. And we've seen 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.120 us all the time that we're emailing the person sitting 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:40.159 next to me. How crazy is that? And there's something 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:44.120 different texting versus picking up the phone and talking to somebody. 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.279 Talk to us about the importance of leadership and having 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:50.960 those connected relationships well connected. Yeah, if you think about it, 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:53.479 you were in an era where you also create these 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.920 false friendships, whether it's on Facebook or wherever we've used 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:02.800 the term Twitter followers. Don't love me there, Okay. I've 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:04.320 got a friend of mine who's got a saying and 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:07.240 he calls at the four Club, and four is the 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:10.200 belt way around Washington, d C. And he says, there's 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:12.280 a group of people that if they call me in 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:13.920 the middle of the night and tell me to go 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:17.680 stand on the side of four in a loincloth, golf 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:19.680 shoes and a light coat of oil, I will go 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.520 do it. I want to ask questions. Now he says 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:26.159 it's a small group, but the reality is when you 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.400 talk about friendships, those are the people who you really 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.000 have a connection. In the military, we used to say 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.760 that on the radio in a firefight is not the 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:38.080 time to establish a relationship. So you've got to understand 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.440 that the sinews of a relationship actually come from other things. 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.200 When we're geographically dispersed, that takes work. I usually believe 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.720 that there has to be some face to face interaction 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.520 and you've got to be intentional about what you're doing. 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.520 You can then follow that with email and phone calls, 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.720 but the reality is a relationship built at long distance 0:06:56.760 --> 0:07:01.360 without more. I'm a great believer than video conferencing is 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.360 far more effective than a phone call, which is far 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:08.839 more effective than an email. And so there's this hierarchy 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.280 and being able to see responses. If you and I 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:14.800 had a scream between us, now we have a completely 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.320 different conversation than the fact that you can see me 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:19.840 and I can see you. There is something about a 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.840 visual or being face to face exactly. Um. It's interesting too, 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:25.680 because you do say you need to have people in 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:27.360 your life that you can call early in the morning 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.400 or late at night. And that's true for people who 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.160 are running things or running companies. You have to have 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.760 those people. You need it more than ever because as 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.440 we know the loan the military talks about the loneliness 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:42.200 of command, but the reality is leaders and companies can't 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.240 make all your subordinates your friends. You can be friendly 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:47.920 with them, but it's unfair to make them your friend 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:49.840 because when your friend, you come and you pour your 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.160 heart out, you tell your problems. If you do that 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:55.840 to a subordinate one moment, they take that information in 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:58.440 they try to figure out how they should respond. Then 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:00.920 the next day you're very direct, give or you're critical, 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.880 and you put them in this incredibly confusing position, which 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:07.679 is not fair to them, right, And so it takes 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:12.480 us the discipline not to pollute that relationship unfairly, which 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.600 means we need somebody. So I understand that I'm thinking 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.480 about something that Liz said last night from Mackenzie and 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.080 this whole idea. I talked about having eight hours of sleep, 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.000 but she just talked about the importance that you really 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:27.040 need to be rested to function well. But our point 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.480 was when somebody comes in and there crying or angry. 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:32.720 Just did you get sleep? So where is that line 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:37.679 between being a manager that cares about its people because 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.200 we all have things going on in our life and 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.160 understanding that, but also understanding that we've got to run 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:46.600 a company right and we have responsible for the top 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:48.960 and bottom line. So where's that balance? Where did you 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:51.520 have the balance between your guys that have to protect 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:55.760 one another, protect this country, yeah, versus making sure they're okay. 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:57.800 I think one of the things you have to understand 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.760 is going and rubbing somebody on the back and asking 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:04.000 them how they feel may not actually be the most 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:07.600 effective way of showing you really care caring about people. 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:10.040 Irwin Rommel, the German general WORL War two, said that 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:14.000 the best form of troop welfare is first class training. First, 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.240 position them for success, take care of them in ways 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:21.280 that matter in the military. That's food, that's protection, that's training, 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:25.040 that's leadership. That's what you owe them first. Now, if 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:26.760 you then have time to go rub them on the 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.439 belly and tell them that you love them, that's great, 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:33.200 but that's not the key thing. The key thing is 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:36.520 doing your role to take care of them. Sometimes that 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:39.720 means kicking them in the butt. Sometimes that means grabbing 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.880 somebody and saying, you know, they feel sorry for themselves, 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:45.120 and you've got to get in their face and say 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:49.959 I don't care. And in combat you'll find that people 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.760 will be frightened, they will be exhausted, they will be 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:56.480 all of these things. And the vast majorities are strong, 0:09:56.840 --> 0:10:01.840 but everybody's weak on occasion, every everybody loses their composure 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:06.080 or their courage, or their will or their patients. And 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:09.400 in those moments, somebody's got to grab them. I mean, 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:12.280 even as a senior leader, I would lose my patients, 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:14.680 and I had people around me who were confident enough 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:18.600 to get my face and say stop it, stop it 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:22.160 right now. And that's Those are the best kinds of 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.320 comrades and friends, and we need that. But it's it's 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:30.760 not always been bag chairs. And I want to talk 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:37.360 about time you were kicked in your butt a little bit. Yeah, um, 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.320 And I know you've talked about this before, and this 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:43.720 was after a Rolling Stone article and it talked about 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:47.520 you in your military strategy in Afghanistan. The title was 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:51.080 the Runaway Jack General, and it talked about you and 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.600 your staff having mocked some of the civilian government officials. 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:59.839 You are a well respected leader, powerful, high visibility, and 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.080 now you were part of the twenty four hour news cycle? 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:06.439 Is that like disorienting? And what had happened? For background, 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.520 this was a freelance writer who wrote a piece for 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:11.280 Rolling Stone. He came in a couple of times, wasn't 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:13.440 embedded with us for a long time. We thought it 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.480 was going to be a puff piece. We thought it 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:17.360 was going to be about the command group at war. 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.600 We've been together for many of us many years. And 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:22.400 then when the story came out and came out of 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:24.800 two in the morning, we saw it and it's titled 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.439 The Runaway General. And as soon as you see that, 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:28.960 you know you don't have to read further. You know 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.319 you've got a problem. And there had been tension between 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:36.079 Defense Department and the White House. Not personal. I got 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.040 along very well with President Obama, but there was this 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.560 tension over the strategy. So this thing explodes and I'm 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:43.599 in Afghanistan and as soon as it came out, I 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.920 knew big problem. Made some phone calls, and then I 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.040 was asked to fly back to the United States that 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:52.800 night to speak to the Secretary Defense of the President. 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:57.240 And I absolutely know what's going but still. As I 0:11:57.280 --> 0:11:59.880 get on the plane for the seventeen hour flight, my 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.920 eighty six year old father down in Florida. I know 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:07.200 he's seeing the news cycle every day. People who don't 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.400 know what's going on are opening it in a you know, 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.559 on the media about it. My son in college is 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:15.520 seeing it, and of course my wife at that point 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:19.640 of thirty four years is uh is seeing it. As 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:26.520 we're flying back flight, I get this email from three privates. 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.760 Three privates don't normally write the four star general and you. 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.400 And it was funny because I'd met them. I'd going 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.360 on an operation with him outside of Kandahar combat operation, 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.240 and so we had the special relationship. And they sent 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:44.280 me this thing and they said, we heard about this 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.960 article and if you let that reporter around it, and 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:50.720 those things were said, we don't think that was very smart. 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.600 Here I am reading this email, going whoa, And then 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.400 they go, however, General, we know you and we love you. 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:03.280 So whatever happens, remember that. And you get that from 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.360 three privates, and you land in d C. And you 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:08.800 go to see the President of United States. He asked, 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.240 what's going on? What happened? And I didn't know, I mean, 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:13.440 I didn't have the background. At that point, I just 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:16.320 knew there was this conflagration. Had you read the article 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.120 by this time, yes, And I didn't think the article 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:21.520 was accurate. I didn't think it depicted it fairly. But 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.800 that didn't matter. The President on his desk has this 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:28.120 problem that came from my team, and it's my responsibility, 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:32.240 it's not his. So I had prepared my resignation and 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.319 I offered it to President Obama, and I said, if 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:37.080 you want me to go back and keep commanding, I'll 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.760 do that. You know, if you want to give me 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:41.920 a dressing down and do that, I'll do that. If 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.560 you want my resignation, whatever's best for the mission. And 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.200 he took it, and he was an incredible gentleman. He says, 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.880 I'm going to accept it. Boom boom boom, And so 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.400 we had a short conversation. But here's the point. I 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.120 walked out of that room. I've been four years at 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.240 West Point, I've been born in an army hospital. Everything 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:03.240 in my life had been military. Then i've been thirty 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:05.760 four years as an officer, and in an instant, it's done, 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.920 it's gone. And I walked out into this other office 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:11.800 and then I get in a vehicle and drive back 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.679 to Fort McNair, where my wife was living when I 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:21.480 was in Afghanistan. And literally everything I was about and 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:26.720 who I was is past. And not only past. My 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.360 wife had grown up in an army family, and so 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.800 she had been connected and loyal to me for all 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:38.120 these years. And I walked into the house and she 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:39.960 didn't know what was going to happen. I had flown 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:41.680 in that night, and you know, we hadn't had a 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:44.640 chance to talk about it. And she's standing in the 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.160 entrance way to the house and I said, Annie, it's 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:51.520 over careers ever. And she looked at me and she 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:58.520 said good. And then she said, We've always been happy 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:00.960 and will always be happy. You know. It was the 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:03.560 most amazing thing. It was the best piece of leadership 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:05.760 I've ever seen in my life. Because if she had 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.600 pulled me aside and said you got screwed, boom boom boom, 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.840 you know, part of me inside wanted to to, you know, 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:16.640 rage and whatnot. And she goes, ah, will always be happy. 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.120 We made a decision that day. We didn't sit down 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.440 and say it. We just made it unconsciously and then 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.840 lived it. What we decided is to live life facing 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.760 forward because I had screwed that up. I accepted responsibility. 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.840 That was my mistake for that article to come out, 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.520 and I thought that I was disgraced and everybody in 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:38.480 the world every time I went to where people would 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:40.080 see across the room and they kind of point and 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:42.160 whisper to themselves, and you think, either they're talking about 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:45.960 Wikipedia or any any article. Yeah, it's just that's it. 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:49.920 It's there, and so you want to scream out and 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:52.200 say I was wronged, or whatever you want to do. 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:55.800 And we decided differently. What we decided was we wouldn't 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.840 try to relitigate that. We would just move forward and 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.720 describe it as helped by any because she lives life 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.080 like she drives with no use for the review mirror, 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:11.400 and so what we let a knock on women driving? 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:15.520 All right, second, I hope she's not listening. But anyway, 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.000 So what we did was we decided that I would 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.520 conduct myself and she as well, in a way that 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:24.360 everyone who had never met us before but had read 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.680 the article would say, Wow, that person didn't seem like 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.280 that doesn't make sense, or the people who had believed 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.720 in us before would keep believing, would believe that a. 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.080 I did the right thing to be friends are connected 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:39.720 with him for so long, and you know, it turned 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.640 out to be the best decision of my life because 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:48.560 you can go back and fight those kind of battles, 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:53.280 but nobody cares but you. And second, it's about the future. 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.440 You can't change anything in the past. Everybody in this 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.800 room will probably fail. You'll fail at a marriage, or 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:00.680 your fail with a kid. You're failing. You're gonna fail 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.960 at something, and then you're going to have to figure 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.280 out how you deal with it. And for me, the 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.840 greatest thing in the world has been focusing forward. Because 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.800 it's now been nine years this month, and every year 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.639 has been better. I mean there were times when I 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.199 still you know, I read something or somebody refers to 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.280 it and I just go and that's not right. But 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:26.199 I just it gets easier every year, and I just 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:30.720 think mentally, psychology, you know, all the things has made 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:34.320 me stronger for the experience. Um, thank you for telling that. 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:42.960 I really appreciate it. Thank you. And so I'm wondering, 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.520 I'm thinking about everybody listening. I mean, everybody's going to 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:48.280 go through a crisis at some point, and you know, 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.840 I watched in terms of news coverage VW, how long 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.959 they thought it or hit it or whatever. You know, 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:57.680 just different companies they deal some of them get out. 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.640 You know the college admission scandals. Companies got right ahead 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:03.000 of it if they had an employee who was involved. 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.719 You know, what's your advice to some folks, to our 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.920 breakaway members that they're gonna have some kind of crisis, 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:10.679 how do you? How do you deal it? Because you 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:12.800 could have done and said, you know what we're gonna do. 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:14.760 We're gonna do some research and find out exactly what 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:16.800 happened blah blah and dragged it on. You could have 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.359 done that. You didn't, and it wouldn't have been right 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:21.439 for the mission there. You would have put this paul 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.239 over the mission for a long time. And even if 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:27.600 the president had then fired me and put me out, 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:29.520 it would have still put this question mark when don't 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.000 need that? Um. There are two things I'd say. Is 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:34.560 first is when you have something where you make a mistake, 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:38.320 just get out and known it. It's it's it's easier 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:42.280 for you to the second thing is if the organization 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.720 makes a mistake the same thing. The hard part is 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:49.439 going to be where there will be a perception of 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:53.720 a mistake, and your first advice you get is cut 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.320 off the disease limb to move on. But the disease 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:01.119 limb maybe some of your people, and they may not guilty, 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:04.280 they may not actually be wrong. And so there's a 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:06.800 tendency sometimes to say, well, you know, I've got to 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:08.440 get in front of this, so I gotta fire these 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:13.160 people to to create a firebreak, and then you run 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.960 into a real This is where it gets hard difficult thing. One, 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.919 because you have loyalty to them, maybe they don't deserve it, 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:22.800 even though the press is calling for their heads. And second, 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:27.000 everyone else in the organization is watching because they will 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.080 extrapolate how you treat them to how you're going to 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:35.560 treat them when it happens. And so the idea of 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:40.160 balancing loyalty and balancing taking care of people were doing 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:43.359 something that protects your organization. This is where it's hard, 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.760 and this is where it takes leadership to explain it. 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:48.879 It takes leadership to get to the bottom of things 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.280 as you go forward. What do you make of leadership today? 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.399 Where it's also you know, we have a commander in 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.560 chief who leads often by tweets. We have CEO as 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:01.800 a company. He's like Ellen Musk maybe on Twitter. I 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.399 don't know today where he is right now, but you know, 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:07.040 this is how we do. It tends to be provocative, 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:10.200 it tends to kind of shake things up. Um. I'm 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:12.000 not saying everybody does that, but we are in a 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.439 new world order. It feels like when it comes to 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:18.320 leadership and what's what's allowed. I see some extraordinary leadership 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:22.119 in companies and organizations. I mean, just calm, focused, caring leadership. 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:24.439 There anybody in particular that you are admired. I'm a 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:27.280 great friend of Keith Cratch of Docu Sign he's now 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.320 just joined in the United States government, Brad Smith into it. 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:33.639 People I've worked with closely that I've gotten to know, 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:37.639 uh Andy c Mary Lynch. These are people I've gotten 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.119 up close and watched them lead, and I'm deeply impressed 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.760 by it. But a lot of people are confusing celebrity 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:48.439 for leadership and the idea that you can say a 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:52.040 lot or go out and create this persona and that's leadership. 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:56.040 And to a degree you may influence people. You may 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:58.520 actually if you if you do that, you may get 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.960 people to think certain things. But I don't think that's 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:05.400 where you get the kind of loyalty to where you're 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.359 going that's going to bring people along for the long term. 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:11.320