1 00:00:15,210 --> 00:00:28,970 Speaker 1: Pushkin, Karen, I'm I'm sorry to be intruding like this, 2 00:00:29,090 --> 00:00:31,890 Speaker 1: you know, just calling up at it O. 3 00:00:32,090 --> 00:00:35,089 Speaker 2: Hi, oh hi, sorry, my mom called on. 4 00:00:36,330 --> 00:00:38,930 Speaker 1: So then you just you just drop whoever you're talking to. 5 00:00:39,370 --> 00:00:40,330 Speaker 2: That's the kind of daughter. 6 00:00:40,409 --> 00:00:41,369 Speaker 3: I am not. 7 00:00:41,409 --> 00:00:51,010 Speaker 1: Very professional, but okay, yes, it actually is. Well, because 8 00:00:51,010 --> 00:00:53,050 Speaker 1: you know you're a you're a dear friend of Jackie. 9 00:00:53,170 --> 00:00:55,130 Speaker 1: So I thought maybe you know, I would turn to 10 00:00:55,170 --> 00:00:58,729 Speaker 1: you with my concern. I I've been trying to call 11 00:00:58,810 --> 00:01:01,850 Speaker 1: Jackie and she doesn't seem to be accepting my phone calls. 12 00:01:03,770 --> 00:01:08,130 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I could confirm that she's okay, okay, 13 00:01:08,130 --> 00:01:11,210 Speaker 2: Oh that's good, thankful, Oh, thank god. Yeah, I could 14 00:01:11,250 --> 00:01:18,450 Speaker 2: confirm that, and I can confirm that she's annoyed by 15 00:01:18,530 --> 00:01:24,209 Speaker 2: your persistence that I could confirm, okay, And I don't know. 16 00:01:24,370 --> 00:01:26,930 Speaker 2: I don't know what to tell you. Maybe she just 17 00:01:27,050 --> 00:01:32,850 Speaker 2: feels that you're using her, well, I am, well, maybe 18 00:01:32,890 --> 00:01:33,650 Speaker 2: she doesn't like. 19 00:01:33,650 --> 00:01:35,770 Speaker 1: That, yeah, because she wants to be the user. 20 00:01:35,930 --> 00:01:38,810 Speaker 2: Right, that's an excellent point you've got there. 21 00:01:39,890 --> 00:01:44,090 Speaker 1: Okay, Jackie, if you're out there listening, which let's face it, 22 00:01:44,090 --> 00:01:48,610 Speaker 1: you're probably not. If I am using you, it's on 23 00:01:48,690 --> 00:02:01,010 Speaker 1: behalf of America in Canada, of course, from Pushkin Industries. 24 00:02:01,370 --> 00:02:08,330 Speaker 1: I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight Today's episode. Stephano 25 00:02:13,490 --> 00:02:25,090 Speaker 1: right after the break. It's impossible to talk to Debbie 26 00:02:25,290 --> 00:02:29,930 Speaker 1: without hearing stories about her mom, Anita. Anita was Italian, 27 00:02:30,290 --> 00:02:34,530 Speaker 1: and in every story it's her autemismo for roach or 28 00:02:34,730 --> 00:02:37,650 Speaker 1: fierce optimism that takes center stage. 29 00:02:38,050 --> 00:02:42,610 Speaker 4: Truly, for her, the glass was beyond half full. It 30 00:02:42,650 --> 00:02:44,690 Speaker 4: was always full, even if there was a drop of 31 00:02:44,690 --> 00:02:47,090 Speaker 4: water in there, Jonathan, it was just always full. 32 00:02:47,770 --> 00:02:51,010 Speaker 1: As an example, Debbie tells the story of how Anita 33 00:02:51,090 --> 00:02:54,370 Speaker 1: comforted some cousins who were concerned their child was crying 34 00:02:54,410 --> 00:02:54,890 Speaker 1: too much. 35 00:02:55,210 --> 00:02:57,810 Speaker 4: And my mom said, no, you don't have to worry. 36 00:02:57,970 --> 00:03:00,770 Speaker 4: She's like me. I was like that for years. I 37 00:03:00,890 --> 00:03:04,490 Speaker 4: was always crying very easily. My mom was around seventy 38 00:03:04,490 --> 00:03:06,170 Speaker 4: eight years old at the time. And they said, did 39 00:03:06,210 --> 00:03:08,130 Speaker 4: you grow out of it? And my mom goes, yeah, 40 00:03:08,170 --> 00:03:11,410 Speaker 4: and they said when and she said about two years ago, 41 00:03:11,650 --> 00:03:15,010 Speaker 4: So you know, they had something to hope for. 42 00:03:16,010 --> 00:03:18,850 Speaker 1: Anita died in twenty twenty, and her death was hard 43 00:03:18,850 --> 00:03:22,010 Speaker 1: on Debbi. She misses her mom a lot and thinks 44 00:03:22,050 --> 00:03:25,290 Speaker 1: about her a lot, and perhaps because of this, she 45 00:03:25,370 --> 00:03:28,650 Speaker 1: finds herself returning to the one Anita story that has 46 00:03:28,730 --> 00:03:32,170 Speaker 1: yet to find its happy ending, and that is the 47 00:03:32,210 --> 00:03:40,930 Speaker 1: story of the airplane and the baby. Anita grew up 48 00:03:40,930 --> 00:03:43,810 Speaker 1: in a part of Italy called Eastria, and after World 49 00:03:43,850 --> 00:03:48,050 Speaker 1: War Two the region was seated to Yugoslavia. Suddenly, her 50 00:03:48,090 --> 00:03:52,010 Speaker 1: family was under oppressive socialist rule. So Anita and her 51 00:03:52,010 --> 00:03:55,490 Speaker 1: brother hatched an escape plan. They double layered their clothing, 52 00:03:55,810 --> 00:03:59,010 Speaker 1: borrowed a motor boat, and sailed into the Adriatic Sea. 53 00:03:59,690 --> 00:04:01,810 Speaker 1: Anita could easily have drowned. 54 00:04:01,770 --> 00:04:04,770 Speaker 4: But my mom said, you know, you're young, and you 55 00:04:04,770 --> 00:04:06,530 Speaker 4: don't think about that kind of stuff. You just think 56 00:04:06,570 --> 00:04:08,010 Speaker 4: about freedom. 57 00:04:09,130 --> 00:04:11,410 Speaker 1: And her brother made it to Italy, where the police 58 00:04:11,410 --> 00:04:14,290 Speaker 1: took them to a refugee camp. In the coming years, 59 00:04:14,410 --> 00:04:16,529 Speaker 1: Anita would live in several such camps. 60 00:04:16,810 --> 00:04:19,010 Speaker 4: When I would talk to her other friends about it, 61 00:04:19,130 --> 00:04:21,770 Speaker 4: her friends would say, oh, it was hard, you know 62 00:04:21,849 --> 00:04:24,690 Speaker 4: it was. The food wasn't good most of the time, 63 00:04:24,810 --> 00:04:28,489 Speaker 4: and we didn't have money. But you would never have 64 00:04:28,570 --> 00:04:32,770 Speaker 4: known that. Talking to her, she was just eternally optimistic. 65 00:04:33,330 --> 00:04:36,089 Speaker 4: She said, it was wonderful. They opened the doors and 66 00:04:36,169 --> 00:04:38,489 Speaker 4: I saw so many people that I knew. There we'd 67 00:04:38,529 --> 00:04:41,289 Speaker 4: play cards, and we'd drink, and you know, the girls 68 00:04:41,330 --> 00:04:43,849 Speaker 4: would do each other's hair and just had fun. 69 00:04:45,810 --> 00:04:48,650 Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty nine, Anita got her chance to leave 70 00:04:48,690 --> 00:04:52,169 Speaker 1: the camps a visa to the United States, and so 71 00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:55,130 Speaker 1: all alone, Anita set out to America. 72 00:04:55,729 --> 00:04:58,130 Speaker 4: So she was getting ready to get on the flight 73 00:04:58,369 --> 00:05:02,809 Speaker 4: from Rome to New York. And there was an adoption 74 00:05:03,010 --> 00:05:08,810 Speaker 4: agency that were taking children from orphanages from Italy to 75 00:05:08,849 --> 00:05:11,969 Speaker 4: the United States. And they asked my mom if she 76 00:05:12,010 --> 00:05:15,089 Speaker 4: would babysit this little boy, this little two year old boy, 77 00:05:15,210 --> 00:05:24,689 Speaker 4: and she said, of course. Did she learn his name, Stephano, It's. 78 00:05:24,570 --> 00:05:28,330 Speaker 5: Anita, and you have I got a picture of a 79 00:05:28,409 --> 00:05:30,490 Speaker 5: little baby Stefano. 80 00:05:31,409 --> 00:05:34,169 Speaker 1: This is Anita in a video Debbie filmed a year 81 00:05:34,210 --> 00:05:37,769 Speaker 1: before her mom's death. In the video, Anita is clutching 82 00:05:37,770 --> 00:05:39,890 Speaker 1: a photograph taken during the flight. 83 00:05:40,010 --> 00:05:42,129 Speaker 5: So you look at how beautiful he is. 84 00:05:43,169 --> 00:05:46,250 Speaker 1: The photograph is oddly composed, almost like it was taken 85 00:05:46,289 --> 00:05:49,529 Speaker 1: by accident when the camera was set down. Anita and 86 00:05:49,529 --> 00:05:52,810 Speaker 1: Stefano's faces are both partially cut off, but you can 87 00:05:52,849 --> 00:05:55,529 Speaker 1: tell that Anita is smiling big with the two year 88 00:05:55,529 --> 00:05:57,650 Speaker 1: old Stefano peaceful in her arms. 89 00:05:58,049 --> 00:05:59,010 Speaker 6: How old were you there? 90 00:05:59,650 --> 00:06:02,770 Speaker 5: Twenty four? Look at how beautiful and sixty years ago 91 00:06:03,130 --> 00:06:04,330 Speaker 5: nineteen fifty nine. 92 00:06:05,169 --> 00:06:06,930 Speaker 1: It was a long flight to New York and they 93 00:06:06,929 --> 00:06:10,609 Speaker 1: had to stop three times to refuel, so for eighteen hours, 94 00:06:10,810 --> 00:06:12,330 Speaker 1: Anita held Stephano close. 95 00:06:13,049 --> 00:06:14,969 Speaker 4: I think she just fell in love with him. She 96 00:06:15,130 --> 00:06:17,650 Speaker 4: just fell in love with that little baby. She said, 97 00:06:17,729 --> 00:06:19,570 Speaker 4: he was the best baby you could ever see. 98 00:06:19,729 --> 00:06:23,369 Speaker 5: How good baby heels. He's the best baby. It was 99 00:06:23,690 --> 00:06:26,529 Speaker 5: very happy. I was happy, Eddie. The baby was heavy. 100 00:06:27,330 --> 00:06:30,569 Speaker 1: It was Anita's first time on an airplane and Stephano's two. 101 00:06:30,770 --> 00:06:33,729 Speaker 1: They were both leaving behind everyone they knew and setting 102 00:06:33,770 --> 00:06:37,009 Speaker 1: out alone for a new life in America. Clutching this 103 00:06:37,089 --> 00:06:39,810 Speaker 1: baby over the ocean, the two of them smiling at 104 00:06:39,810 --> 00:06:43,490 Speaker 1: each other. Anita and Stefano bonded. They were both off 105 00:06:43,529 --> 00:06:47,810 Speaker 1: to what she hoped was a better life. 106 00:06:53,770 --> 00:06:56,610 Speaker 4: They get to New York, she was holding the baby 107 00:06:57,369 --> 00:07:00,370 Speaker 4: and the agency came up to her and then just 108 00:07:00,609 --> 00:07:02,609 Speaker 4: took him right out of her arms. She said, they 109 00:07:02,609 --> 00:07:04,729 Speaker 4: didn't say anything to her, They. 110 00:07:04,810 --> 00:07:08,490 Speaker 5: Just take him away from me, and he started crying. 111 00:07:09,250 --> 00:07:10,930 Speaker 5: He don't know nobody. 112 00:07:11,130 --> 00:07:13,090 Speaker 1: There was no chance to even say goodbye. 113 00:07:13,450 --> 00:07:16,210 Speaker 5: And I was crying him. I would crying out. 114 00:07:16,890 --> 00:07:19,129 Speaker 6: Yeah, of course that's sad. 115 00:07:19,330 --> 00:07:20,530 Speaker 5: It was like my baby. 116 00:07:21,770 --> 00:07:24,610 Speaker 4: She would cry. She would cry when she talk about it. 117 00:07:25,770 --> 00:07:28,730 Speaker 1: Even after raising two kids of her own, Anita never 118 00:07:28,770 --> 00:07:31,370 Speaker 1: stopped talking about the child who was hers for a day. 119 00:07:32,090 --> 00:07:35,290 Speaker 1: All through her life, even into her last years, everyone 120 00:07:35,330 --> 00:07:39,330 Speaker 1: heard about Stephano. Anita continued to hope, always needed to 121 00:07:39,369 --> 00:07:41,930 Speaker 1: believe that Stefano's life was a good one. 122 00:07:42,410 --> 00:07:45,410 Speaker 4: She would say, I wonder where he is. Was he 123 00:07:45,450 --> 00:07:48,249 Speaker 4: in a good home? What was his life like? 124 00:07:48,929 --> 00:07:51,369 Speaker 5: I would like to know him and see how he's doing. 125 00:07:51,810 --> 00:07:54,770 Speaker 5: I'm sorry, maybe you're far away. I don't know where 126 00:07:54,810 --> 00:07:57,290 Speaker 5: are you. I was thinking all this year about him 127 00:07:57,450 --> 00:08:00,450 Speaker 5: all the time. Yeah, and I love you even if 128 00:08:00,489 --> 00:08:01,690 Speaker 5: I don't see you too long. 129 00:08:02,369 --> 00:08:04,929 Speaker 6: That's a nice story, and I don't know if you 130 00:08:05,010 --> 00:08:08,770 Speaker 6: understand it. I think so. 131 00:08:09,170 --> 00:08:12,090 Speaker 1: When Anita was still alive, there were several attempts at 132 00:08:12,090 --> 00:08:16,290 Speaker 1: finding Stefano. Anita sought out help from various friends and family, 133 00:08:16,650 --> 00:08:19,250 Speaker 1: but no one was able to get anywhere. They even 134 00:08:19,250 --> 00:08:22,290 Speaker 1: looked into a TV show that reunited adoptees with their 135 00:08:22,330 --> 00:08:26,810 Speaker 1: birth parents, but Anita wasn't Stefano's birth parent. But then 136 00:08:26,850 --> 00:08:29,449 Speaker 1: One day, Debbie brought up the subject of Stefano with 137 00:08:29,489 --> 00:08:30,970 Speaker 1: her close friend Lindsay. 138 00:08:31,410 --> 00:08:34,090 Speaker 4: Lindsay starts plugging stuff into the computer and she said, up, 139 00:08:34,730 --> 00:08:35,490 Speaker 4: I found him. 140 00:08:35,810 --> 00:08:39,090 Speaker 1: Hang on, but did you even have his last name? 141 00:08:39,810 --> 00:08:39,970 Speaker 4: No? 142 00:08:40,330 --> 00:08:42,810 Speaker 1: And who's this, Lindsay. Does she work for the state 143 00:08:42,850 --> 00:08:46,730 Speaker 1: department or something? You would think as someone who makes 144 00:08:46,770 --> 00:08:49,810 Speaker 1: his living tracking people down, like a nice version of 145 00:08:49,850 --> 00:08:52,890 Speaker 1: dog the bounty hunter, A dog the bounty hunter who 146 00:08:53,250 --> 00:08:56,370 Speaker 1: rather than dragging people off to jail, drags them off 147 00:08:56,450 --> 00:09:01,210 Speaker 1: to heal. I'm professionally piqued by this, Lindsay. 148 00:09:04,410 --> 00:09:08,610 Speaker 7: I have a skill for finding digital footprints of people. 149 00:09:09,290 --> 00:09:10,090 Speaker 1: This is Lindsay. 150 00:09:10,450 --> 00:09:13,010 Speaker 7: I'm the person that people go to if you want 151 00:09:13,010 --> 00:09:13,770 Speaker 7: to know something. 152 00:09:15,050 --> 00:09:18,530 Speaker 1: The only information she knew about Stefano was his age 153 00:09:18,530 --> 00:09:21,170 Speaker 1: and the date of the flight. But with that she 154 00:09:21,210 --> 00:09:24,250 Speaker 1: found Stefano's immigration record, which had the name of the 155 00:09:24,290 --> 00:09:27,330 Speaker 1: man on it who was set to adopt him. From there, 156 00:09:27,610 --> 00:09:29,850 Speaker 1: Lindsay found the adoptive father's obituary. 157 00:09:30,410 --> 00:09:33,690 Speaker 7: Under the list of surviving children, there was the name Stephen, 158 00:09:34,250 --> 00:09:36,570 Speaker 7: and you know, we put that together. 159 00:09:36,650 --> 00:09:47,130 Speaker 1: As Stephaniel Stefano. In America, Stefano became Stephen, although Lindsay 160 00:09:47,210 --> 00:09:49,570 Speaker 1: now had Stephano's full name, she had no way of 161 00:09:49,650 --> 00:09:52,290 Speaker 1: getting in touch with them. She call Hied social media, 162 00:09:52,530 --> 00:09:55,010 Speaker 1: but he was nowhere to be found. She did find 163 00:09:55,050 --> 00:09:57,610 Speaker 1: his two brothers, though, so she messaged one. 164 00:09:58,010 --> 00:10:01,250 Speaker 7: He said that it was a very nice story, but 165 00:10:01,450 --> 00:10:03,050 Speaker 7: he doesn't speak to Stephen anymore. 166 00:10:04,810 --> 00:10:07,809 Speaker 1: Yeah, And when Lindsay tried the other brother. 167 00:10:07,970 --> 00:10:11,490 Speaker 7: It was basically this thing that they don't speak either. 168 00:10:12,250 --> 00:10:16,410 Speaker 4: And then Lindsay dug a little deeper and it looked 169 00:10:16,450 --> 00:10:18,890 Speaker 4: like he might have a criminal record. 170 00:10:19,730 --> 00:10:23,530 Speaker 1: Debian Lindsay couldn't see what Stephen's criminal record was. It 171 00:10:23,690 --> 00:10:25,530 Speaker 1: just came up as a flag on one of those 172 00:10:25,570 --> 00:10:28,890 Speaker 1: people finding websites. But the reality of what they were 173 00:10:28,890 --> 00:10:32,370 Speaker 1: doing suddenly sank in. They were looking for a potentially 174 00:10:32,450 --> 00:10:36,410 Speaker 1: dangerous stranger to introduce to the elderly Anita, and it 175 00:10:36,490 --> 00:10:37,250 Speaker 1: gave them pause. 176 00:10:37,810 --> 00:10:41,170 Speaker 7: That paired with them not speaking to his brothers. Just 177 00:10:41,370 --> 00:10:44,050 Speaker 7: we weren't there. Maybe this was our bapest way to 178 00:10:44,050 --> 00:10:46,690 Speaker 7: go about this, and we wanted to take some time 179 00:10:47,410 --> 00:10:49,050 Speaker 7: to kind of figure out a game plan. 180 00:10:49,930 --> 00:10:53,690 Speaker 1: The time passed and no game plan emerged. Any year later, 181 00:10:53,850 --> 00:11:04,770 Speaker 1: Anita died, never having gotten to reunite with Stefano. After 182 00:11:04,810 --> 00:11:07,530 Speaker 1: the loss of a parent, there's often an attempt to 183 00:11:07,570 --> 00:11:11,210 Speaker 1: honor a final wish, donating to a beloved cause or 184 00:11:11,250 --> 00:11:14,850 Speaker 1: scattering ashes in a favorite place. But Debbie feels a 185 00:11:14,890 --> 00:11:17,650 Speaker 1: need to fulfill a different kind of wish on her 186 00:11:17,650 --> 00:11:21,330 Speaker 1: mother's behalf. She wants to know that Stefano is okay. 187 00:11:22,530 --> 00:11:26,770 Speaker 7: Anita's death was very, very, very difficult, and I think 188 00:11:26,810 --> 00:11:29,450 Speaker 7: it's healing for Debbie if we find him, and I 189 00:11:29,490 --> 00:11:32,930 Speaker 7: think that she needs this more than b thinks she does. 190 00:11:34,250 --> 00:11:36,970 Speaker 1: Lindsay says, Debbie never got the chance to fully grieve 191 00:11:37,010 --> 00:11:41,050 Speaker 1: Anita after she died COVID hit. Then her father developed 192 00:11:41,050 --> 00:11:44,809 Speaker 1: dementia and Debbie became his full time caretaker. Then her 193 00:11:44,810 --> 00:11:45,490 Speaker 1: father died. 194 00:11:45,970 --> 00:11:51,130 Speaker 7: Just always onto this next draining saying, you know, and 195 00:11:51,530 --> 00:11:55,170 Speaker 7: since it is honoring this wish of her mom, it's 196 00:11:55,250 --> 00:11:57,370 Speaker 7: helping her feel And I can just see that when 197 00:11:57,410 --> 00:12:02,210 Speaker 7: we talk about the story, she's so hopeful and she's 198 00:12:02,290 --> 00:12:07,010 Speaker 7: so determined, and this is something that I haven't seen 199 00:12:07,050 --> 00:12:09,050 Speaker 7: with Debbie in a very long time. 200 00:12:09,530 --> 00:12:12,570 Speaker 1: And for Debbie, she hopes this story might mean something 201 00:12:12,610 --> 00:12:13,650 Speaker 1: to Stefano too. 202 00:12:14,450 --> 00:12:18,570 Speaker 4: Maybe he needs to know that this woman thought of 203 00:12:18,690 --> 00:12:23,450 Speaker 4: him for most of his life, loving him from a distance, 204 00:12:23,930 --> 00:12:27,290 Speaker 4: wondering about him, praying for him. I mean, what a 205 00:12:27,330 --> 00:12:37,050 Speaker 4: thing to know after the break, Let's find him. Let's 206 00:12:37,090 --> 00:12:39,210 Speaker 4: find that guy, that little Stefano. 207 00:13:01,410 --> 00:13:05,890 Speaker 1: So so here we are, here, we are, my producer, 208 00:13:05,970 --> 00:13:09,929 Speaker 1: Khalila Houlton, I gather in the studio or mission is twofold. 209 00:13:10,410 --> 00:13:13,130 Speaker 1: We want to find a way to contact Stephen. But 210 00:13:13,250 --> 00:13:16,050 Speaker 1: before we do, we want to figure out what Stephen's 211 00:13:16,050 --> 00:13:21,370 Speaker 1: mysterious criminal record actually is. Khalila starts tiptapping away on 212 00:13:21,410 --> 00:13:24,770 Speaker 1: her computer while I settle in and offer the kind 213 00:13:24,810 --> 00:13:28,570 Speaker 1: of input that only an investigative journalist with a decades 214 00:13:28,650 --> 00:13:31,970 Speaker 1: long track record can I've gone through different phases in 215 00:13:32,010 --> 00:13:35,010 Speaker 1: my life where a V neck was more appealing than 216 00:13:35,010 --> 00:13:37,090 Speaker 1: a crew neck. It kind of goes it's always darkest 217 00:13:37,130 --> 00:13:39,570 Speaker 1: before the dawn? Is that true? I was like to Augie, 218 00:13:39,610 --> 00:13:40,970 Speaker 1: I was like, smell how good that is? And He's 219 00:13:41,010 --> 00:13:43,090 Speaker 1: like that smells disgusting. I was like, I could think 220 00:13:43,090 --> 00:13:45,970 Speaker 1: of other times when it's darker. It's probably darker at night. 221 00:13:46,090 --> 00:13:49,130 Speaker 1: My gal don't do much talking dances even when she's 222 00:13:49,170 --> 00:13:51,970 Speaker 1: walking on ontok Oh, look at that little squirrel. Oh, 223 00:13:52,010 --> 00:13:57,210 Speaker 1: here's criminal traffic, and then finally we find the record 224 00:13:57,410 --> 00:14:03,090 Speaker 1: we've been looking for. Do you why uh okay? In 225 00:14:03,210 --> 00:14:06,050 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine. That was a long time ago, so 226 00:14:06,130 --> 00:14:09,530 Speaker 1: there's really no other criminal past except to that's all 227 00:14:09,570 --> 00:14:13,290 Speaker 1: I'm seeing. Boy, that's sad that that was enough to 228 00:14:13,370 --> 00:14:15,930 Speaker 1: kind of make them drop the whole thing. 229 00:14:16,250 --> 00:14:20,170 Speaker 3: Yeah, please leave your message for five. 230 00:14:20,330 --> 00:14:23,690 Speaker 1: Khalila digs up some possible phone numbers for Stephen online, 231 00:14:24,130 --> 00:14:26,890 Speaker 1: and in the weeks to come, I leave numerous voicemails. 232 00:14:27,210 --> 00:14:29,970 Speaker 1: Hi there, I'm looking for a Stephen. I call so 233 00:14:30,050 --> 00:14:33,610 Speaker 1: many numbers. I hear automated messages entirely new to me. 234 00:14:34,010 --> 00:14:36,010 Speaker 4: The number is in service? 235 00:14:36,490 --> 00:14:37,490 Speaker 1: Is in service? 236 00:14:37,570 --> 00:14:38,770 Speaker 4: By your call again. 237 00:14:39,890 --> 00:14:42,570 Speaker 1: None of these phone numbers lead me to Stephen. They 238 00:14:42,610 --> 00:14:44,650 Speaker 1: just lead me to different robotic voices. 239 00:14:44,970 --> 00:14:46,490 Speaker 3: You're calling out, all right? 240 00:14:46,690 --> 00:14:47,090 Speaker 7: That's it. 241 00:14:47,450 --> 00:14:52,530 Speaker 3: Yeah. 242 00:14:53,250 --> 00:14:56,730 Speaker 1: With the telephone having crapped on our heads, we decide 243 00:14:56,770 --> 00:14:59,850 Speaker 1: that what we need is an even older form of communication, 244 00:15:00,530 --> 00:15:05,850 Speaker 1: the US Postal Service. Khalila uncovers three possible mailing addresses 245 00:15:05,890 --> 00:15:09,050 Speaker 1: for Steven. So we write three letters and drop them 246 00:15:09,130 --> 00:15:12,130 Speaker 1: in the mailbox, letting them fly off into the world 247 00:15:12,410 --> 00:15:16,610 Speaker 1: like three hopeful birds. And then time as is its 248 00:15:16,690 --> 00:15:27,450 Speaker 1: wont passes two years go by two years. It's unlikely 249 00:15:27,570 --> 00:15:32,170 Speaker 1: the average podcast listener's brain, raised on podcasts about celebs, 250 00:15:32,330 --> 00:15:34,810 Speaker 1: elk Steak and the science of why people go to 251 00:15:34,890 --> 00:15:39,530 Speaker 1: the bathroom, can easily conceptualize the passage of so much time. 252 00:15:40,330 --> 00:15:43,250 Speaker 1: If this was a video podcast, I'd stare into the 253 00:15:43,330 --> 00:15:47,130 Speaker 1: camera with my patented deadpan affect as my beard and 254 00:15:47,210 --> 00:15:50,770 Speaker 1: fingernails grew in time lapse. But since it isn't a 255 00:15:50,850 --> 00:16:08,130 Speaker 1: video podcast, I present you an audiophonic aid that was 256 00:16:08,170 --> 00:16:13,690 Speaker 1: only ten seconds. Now imagine two years, two years of 257 00:16:13,770 --> 00:16:17,490 Speaker 1: refreshing my inbox and calling my answering service to no avail, 258 00:16:18,330 --> 00:16:21,690 Speaker 1: and then Debbie and I check back in Where are 259 00:16:21,690 --> 00:16:23,730 Speaker 1: you right now? It appears that you have a ladder 260 00:16:23,770 --> 00:16:24,250 Speaker 1: behind you. 261 00:16:24,850 --> 00:16:26,050 Speaker 4: Yes, I'm at home. 262 00:16:26,330 --> 00:16:27,850 Speaker 1: And where does this ladder lead to? 263 00:16:28,450 --> 00:16:28,690 Speaker 3: Oh? 264 00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:30,450 Speaker 1: Nowhere, it's ladder to. 265 00:16:32,210 --> 00:16:34,050 Speaker 4: We're going nowhere with this ladder. 266 00:16:34,130 --> 00:16:36,490 Speaker 1: I hope we're going somewhere with this story. I hope 267 00:16:36,490 --> 00:16:39,650 Speaker 1: we're not on a ladder to nowhere. It seems Debbie 268 00:16:39,650 --> 00:16:42,730 Speaker 1: hasn't given up on Stefano. She tells me Lindsay found 269 00:16:42,730 --> 00:16:45,570 Speaker 1: some of the same phone numbers we did, So Debbie 270 00:16:45,570 --> 00:16:49,250 Speaker 1: two tried calling and leaving messages. No one ever called back, 271 00:16:49,290 --> 00:16:53,570 Speaker 1: though still Debbie wants to keep trying, and so more 272 00:16:53,690 --> 00:16:57,690 Speaker 1: letters are sent, more voicemails left, and two more months 273 00:16:57,730 --> 00:17:04,770 Speaker 1: go by. I've completely given up hope. And then one 274 00:17:04,810 --> 00:17:09,010 Speaker 1: afternoon I finally hear from Stephen. You did, I did? 275 00:17:09,210 --> 00:17:09,570 Speaker 1: You did? 276 00:17:09,770 --> 00:17:10,050 Speaker 6: I did? 277 00:17:10,210 --> 00:17:10,810 Speaker 4: Wow? 278 00:17:11,090 --> 00:17:14,529 Speaker 1: Yeah, sucked. I wasn't holding out a lot of hope 279 00:17:14,770 --> 00:17:20,129 Speaker 1: me either. I tell Debbie about the phone call. How 280 00:17:20,169 --> 00:17:23,409 Speaker 1: Stephen told me he dismissed my letters as a scam. 281 00:17:23,810 --> 00:17:26,490 Speaker 1: I asked if he'd be open to a conversation with Debbie, 282 00:17:26,770 --> 00:17:29,689 Speaker 1: but he said he doesn't have transportation, and when I 283 00:17:29,730 --> 00:17:31,729 Speaker 1: said we could do a video call, he said he 284 00:17:31,770 --> 00:17:34,970 Speaker 1: hasn't a cell phone nor a computer, and he quote 285 00:17:35,169 --> 00:17:39,090 Speaker 1: doesn't follow the Internet. But eventually he said he'd be 286 00:17:39,090 --> 00:17:40,450 Speaker 1: okay with a telephone call. 287 00:17:40,770 --> 00:17:41,609 Speaker 6: I would love her. 288 00:17:42,449 --> 00:17:44,649 Speaker 4: I think it's a gift that he doesn't realize. 289 00:17:44,770 --> 00:17:50,490 Speaker 1: You know, So he is available one o'clock green Mountain time, 290 00:17:50,530 --> 00:17:53,530 Speaker 1: So that would be like, oh, sorry, mountain time, Mountain time, 291 00:17:53,609 --> 00:17:59,409 Speaker 1: not green Mountain After the break, Stephano at long last, 292 00:17:59,770 --> 00:18:02,329 Speaker 1: his green Mountain time A thing sounds like a coffee thing. 293 00:18:02,929 --> 00:18:06,210 Speaker 1: That would be three o'clock in St Cafe, So one 294 00:18:06,209 --> 00:18:24,369 Speaker 1: o'clock Green Mountain. The next day, at one pm, Green 295 00:18:24,449 --> 00:18:27,889 Speaker 1: Mountain time, Debbie and I convene. Okay, I'll give him 296 00:18:27,929 --> 00:18:30,810 Speaker 1: a call, I'll phone him all and I'll introduce you guys. 297 00:18:31,570 --> 00:18:42,530 Speaker 3: Okay, okay, Hello. 298 00:18:42,889 --> 00:18:49,489 Speaker 1: Hello, Stephen. Y Hi, it's Jonathan phoning. I'm here with Debbie. 299 00:18:49,770 --> 00:18:51,890 Speaker 3: Oh you are Hi, Stephen? 300 00:18:51,970 --> 00:18:52,489 Speaker 4: How are you? 301 00:18:53,850 --> 00:18:56,289 Speaker 8: I'm fine? How are you? 302 00:18:57,889 --> 00:19:01,769 Speaker 4: I'm good. I'm really good, and I'm really excited to 303 00:19:01,889 --> 00:19:13,489 Speaker 4: hear your voice and to know that you're here right now. So, Stephen. 304 00:19:13,570 --> 00:19:16,730 Speaker 4: My mom her name was Anita. 305 00:19:16,090 --> 00:19:19,449 Speaker 1: And Debbie lays it all out for Steven, the plane ride, 306 00:19:19,689 --> 00:19:22,250 Speaker 1: the love Anita felt for him, and how that love 307 00:19:22,409 --> 00:19:24,530 Speaker 1: endured for Anita's entire life. 308 00:19:24,970 --> 00:19:28,330 Speaker 4: You were always on her mind for many, many years 309 00:19:28,490 --> 00:19:30,129 Speaker 4: and told many people about you. 310 00:19:31,889 --> 00:19:32,169 Speaker 1: Well. 311 00:19:32,330 --> 00:19:34,169 Speaker 3: God bless your mom. 312 00:19:35,250 --> 00:19:37,290 Speaker 8: I wish she had adopted me. 313 00:19:38,209 --> 00:19:40,929 Speaker 4: I think she would have liked that too. 314 00:19:45,409 --> 00:19:48,450 Speaker 1: Anita always wanted to know whether, after being taken from 315 00:19:48,490 --> 00:19:51,729 Speaker 1: her arms, Stephano's life had been a good one. So 316 00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:54,210 Speaker 1: we started at the beginning with Steven's adoption. 317 00:19:54,889 --> 00:19:56,930 Speaker 9: My foster parents told me. 318 00:19:58,570 --> 00:20:00,689 Speaker 8: Roughly at the age of eight. 319 00:20:02,129 --> 00:20:04,529 Speaker 1: You call them your foster parents. Did they adopt you? 320 00:20:05,250 --> 00:20:05,490 Speaker 8: Yes? 321 00:20:06,609 --> 00:20:07,729 Speaker 1: Were they good people? 322 00:20:09,090 --> 00:20:12,450 Speaker 8: I mean there was three squares a day. 323 00:20:14,330 --> 00:20:19,530 Speaker 9: I mean there was no abuse or anything like that. 324 00:20:20,929 --> 00:20:25,570 Speaker 8: I don't mind. Uh lickens is what my dad called it. 325 00:20:26,330 --> 00:20:27,169 Speaker 1: Did you say, Lincoln? 326 00:20:28,530 --> 00:20:32,810 Speaker 8: Yeah? About It wasn't abuse. 327 00:20:34,449 --> 00:20:38,050 Speaker 9: It was just for disappoint purposes? 328 00:20:39,649 --> 00:20:39,889 Speaker 8: Was that? 329 00:20:40,010 --> 00:20:40,609 Speaker 1: Was that? Roth? 330 00:20:42,010 --> 00:20:43,969 Speaker 8: Well for a little kid, it is? 331 00:20:46,169 --> 00:20:48,090 Speaker 1: Did did you? But did you feel loved? 332 00:20:50,649 --> 00:20:52,449 Speaker 8: Yes? I did? 333 00:20:54,889 --> 00:21:01,409 Speaker 9: Oh I remember from childhood. Out of the friends and 334 00:21:01,449 --> 00:21:07,409 Speaker 9: they turned out to be drug addicts. I turned out nominal. 335 00:21:09,330 --> 00:21:11,249 Speaker 1: What do you mean when you say nominal? 336 00:21:12,209 --> 00:21:18,449 Speaker 9: Well, I have a serious alcohol problem. Okay, I know 337 00:21:18,649 --> 00:21:24,289 Speaker 9: I sound like I've been drinking, but I haven't. I 338 00:21:24,330 --> 00:21:30,770 Speaker 9: don't have anything here. I was pretty much known as 339 00:21:31,050 --> 00:21:32,449 Speaker 9: a boozer. 340 00:21:33,530 --> 00:21:36,369 Speaker 1: Back in the day. Stephen says the drinking got bad, 341 00:21:36,810 --> 00:21:38,010 Speaker 1: which led to the duy. 342 00:21:38,810 --> 00:21:42,729 Speaker 9: You don't think when you drink, you get behind the 343 00:21:42,810 --> 00:21:49,409 Speaker 9: wheel of a vehicle drunk is preposterous. 344 00:21:49,850 --> 00:21:50,530 Speaker 3: Did your father? 345 00:21:50,770 --> 00:21:53,490 Speaker 4: Did your adoptive father do something similar? 346 00:21:54,409 --> 00:21:58,330 Speaker 8: He drank, but not in excess. 347 00:21:58,730 --> 00:22:04,449 Speaker 9: I never saw him on a drunken stupor well, nobody's 348 00:22:04,570 --> 00:22:05,489 Speaker 9: ever seen me. 349 00:22:07,409 --> 00:22:08,690 Speaker 8: I won't watch them. 350 00:22:09,570 --> 00:22:11,370 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you drink Alone. 351 00:22:13,649 --> 00:22:19,409 Speaker 9: Yes, that song by that one guy, George sirgood, I 352 00:22:19,609 --> 00:22:22,649 Speaker 9: Drink Alone reminds me of me. 353 00:22:24,609 --> 00:22:28,729 Speaker 1: As the conversation goes on, Debbie grows increasingly quiet. So 354 00:22:28,850 --> 00:22:31,850 Speaker 1: I do my best to draw Steven out. Did you 355 00:22:31,889 --> 00:22:32,809 Speaker 1: did you get married? 356 00:22:34,409 --> 00:22:39,850 Speaker 8: No, I've never been married. I've had relationships that they 357 00:22:41,129 --> 00:22:41,570 Speaker 8: come and go. 358 00:22:43,369 --> 00:22:45,850 Speaker 1: Would you say that you that you've been in love? 359 00:22:47,290 --> 00:22:50,129 Speaker 8: I've been infatuated, proved that. 360 00:22:52,010 --> 00:22:57,289 Speaker 9: And I lived with a lady for many years, but 361 00:22:57,490 --> 00:23:00,409 Speaker 9: that was back in the eighties. 362 00:23:02,250 --> 00:23:05,650 Speaker 1: What can you say about her, Joanne? 363 00:23:05,889 --> 00:23:11,730 Speaker 8: Hmm uh, she died in a long camp. Sure, and 364 00:23:12,169 --> 00:23:17,010 Speaker 8: I lived with her for like nine years. 365 00:23:17,209 --> 00:23:21,049 Speaker 1: Oh boy, did she pass away while you were living together? 366 00:23:22,250 --> 00:23:23,650 Speaker 8: Yeah? 367 00:23:23,929 --> 00:23:25,810 Speaker 1: That must have been hard. 368 00:23:27,129 --> 00:23:30,850 Speaker 8: Yeah was, But I moved on. 369 00:23:37,889 --> 00:23:40,009 Speaker 1: Stephen tells us that he was in the Navy for 370 00:23:40,050 --> 00:23:42,889 Speaker 1: four years, that he missed Vietnam by just a month. 371 00:23:43,649 --> 00:23:46,650 Speaker 1: Most of his professional life was spent working in factories. 372 00:23:47,209 --> 00:23:50,210 Speaker 1: I asked him about his brothers why they no longer speak, 373 00:23:50,570 --> 00:23:55,369 Speaker 1: but he says nothing in particular happened. They just drifted. Overall, 374 00:23:55,409 --> 00:23:59,410 Speaker 1: he says his life has been nominal and fortunate. When 375 00:23:59,449 --> 00:24:01,970 Speaker 1: I ask how so, he cites the fact that he's 376 00:24:01,970 --> 00:24:04,969 Speaker 1: never been homeless, although there was a brief period in 377 00:24:05,010 --> 00:24:07,649 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen when he ended up in a veteran shelter. 378 00:24:08,369 --> 00:24:10,810 Speaker 1: It was fine, says, except for the fact that he 379 00:24:10,850 --> 00:24:14,169 Speaker 1: couldn't control the heat or the air conditioning, and shortly 380 00:24:14,209 --> 00:24:16,570 Speaker 1: after that he moved into a room in his friend 381 00:24:16,570 --> 00:24:18,770 Speaker 1: Carl's house, which is where he is now. 382 00:24:25,889 --> 00:24:29,649 Speaker 4: I took a video of her telling the story. I 383 00:24:29,689 --> 00:24:31,570 Speaker 4: don't know if you're interested in hearing it. 384 00:24:32,250 --> 00:24:34,570 Speaker 1: DeBie wants Stephen to hear what he meant to Anita 385 00:24:34,770 --> 00:24:38,449 Speaker 1: in Anita's own words. In response, Stephen says that he 386 00:24:38,490 --> 00:24:41,730 Speaker 1: doesn't have access to a car right now, plus he's 387 00:24:41,730 --> 00:24:44,809 Speaker 1: sick in bed. I assume he thinks we're asking him 388 00:24:44,850 --> 00:24:48,369 Speaker 1: to go somewhere, So I try again to explain, we 389 00:24:48,449 --> 00:24:51,489 Speaker 1: could try to play a little bit of the video 390 00:24:52,090 --> 00:24:56,410 Speaker 1: over the phone so that you can hear Anita's voice. 391 00:24:58,330 --> 00:24:59,290 Speaker 9: Not right now. 392 00:25:01,449 --> 00:25:07,770 Speaker 1: I'm good, it's no misunderstanding. Stephen doesn't want to hear 393 00:25:07,770 --> 00:25:11,850 Speaker 1: Anita Bill. Debbie tries to explain her mom's feelings for 394 00:25:11,929 --> 00:25:14,450 Speaker 1: the baby she held during that flight to America. 395 00:25:15,090 --> 00:25:18,449 Speaker 4: I think in some ways she felt like sympathical with you, 396 00:25:18,449 --> 00:25:21,369 Speaker 4: you know, like sympathetic with you that you were both 397 00:25:21,449 --> 00:25:22,650 Speaker 4: leaving your homeland. 398 00:25:23,449 --> 00:25:23,850 Speaker 8: Hm hmm. 399 00:25:26,169 --> 00:25:28,449 Speaker 1: I mean, is it strange to think that as a 400 00:25:28,490 --> 00:25:30,729 Speaker 1: baby you were able to have such a strong effect 401 00:25:30,810 --> 00:25:31,450 Speaker 1: on somebody. 402 00:25:32,290 --> 00:25:37,250 Speaker 9: Well, I don't think of it. 403 00:25:36,530 --> 00:25:39,530 Speaker 1: As that, but well, how do you think of it? 404 00:25:41,330 --> 00:25:48,649 Speaker 8: That could be anything like I love this little toddler, 405 00:25:49,929 --> 00:25:55,810 Speaker 8: you know, I love Peta. It could be. 406 00:25:57,609 --> 00:25:58,250 Speaker 9: Anything. 407 00:26:00,810 --> 00:26:05,290 Speaker 1: The conversation feels like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. 408 00:26:06,050 --> 00:26:09,609 Speaker 1: If it's a battle between optimism and pessimism, it feels 409 00:26:09,609 --> 00:26:11,169 Speaker 1: like pessimism is winning. 410 00:26:17,330 --> 00:26:23,210 Speaker 8: It was surprising to get the letter, and I thought worries. 411 00:26:24,330 --> 00:26:29,729 Speaker 4: People doing Yeah, I just felt like it was a gift. 412 00:26:31,209 --> 00:26:32,449 Speaker 8: Okay, thank you. 413 00:26:33,490 --> 00:26:41,929 Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm a little old now to be concerned. 414 00:26:44,209 --> 00:26:45,649 Speaker 1: Did you feel like it's too late? 415 00:26:47,530 --> 00:26:49,930 Speaker 8: Yeah? 416 00:26:50,129 --> 00:26:50,810 Speaker 2: I do. 417 00:26:58,770 --> 00:26:58,850 Speaker 3: That. 418 00:26:58,929 --> 00:27:02,409 Speaker 1: Baby Stephano doesn't exist anymore. When he was taken out 419 00:27:02,409 --> 00:27:05,969 Speaker 1: of Anita's arms, he became Stephen, and Stephen is a 420 00:27:06,010 --> 00:27:09,369 Speaker 1: sixty eight year old man dealing with ill health. Feeling 421 00:27:09,530 --> 00:27:12,130 Speaker 1: of a stranger who encountered him for one day as 422 00:27:12,169 --> 00:27:16,810 Speaker 1: a toddler seemed largely irrelevant. Debbie wanted to give Stefano 423 00:27:16,889 --> 00:27:19,609 Speaker 1: a gift, but Stephen doesn't want that gift. 424 00:27:21,010 --> 00:27:25,769 Speaker 9: I'm going to have to discharge now, so I'm going 425 00:27:25,810 --> 00:27:26,970 Speaker 9: to leave you folks. 426 00:27:27,209 --> 00:27:31,210 Speaker 1: Me Before he goes, though, Stephen asks if we could 427 00:27:31,209 --> 00:27:33,929 Speaker 1: mail him a copy of the photograph of Anita and 428 00:27:34,010 --> 00:27:35,009 Speaker 1: him on the plane. 429 00:27:35,649 --> 00:27:36,689 Speaker 8: Mail that to me. 430 00:27:37,290 --> 00:27:40,890 Speaker 3: Yeah, please, okay, thank you, Okay. 431 00:27:40,570 --> 00:27:40,889 Speaker 6: Thank you. 432 00:27:41,129 --> 00:27:43,850 Speaker 4: It was so nice talking to you. I really appreciate 433 00:27:43,889 --> 00:27:46,570 Speaker 4: you taking the time. I wish you the best. I 434 00:27:46,649 --> 00:27:47,290 Speaker 4: wish you well. 435 00:27:47,409 --> 00:27:48,369 Speaker 8: Yay, thank you. 436 00:27:52,129 --> 00:27:54,649 Speaker 1: After we hang up, Debbie and I sit in silence 437 00:27:54,689 --> 00:27:59,490 Speaker 1: for a moment. Yeah, hmm. 438 00:28:00,929 --> 00:28:02,289 Speaker 3: Yeah. 439 00:28:02,609 --> 00:28:04,530 Speaker 1: It's hard to know what to make of any of it. 440 00:28:05,169 --> 00:28:08,689 Speaker 1: On the one hand, Stephen's reaction is reasonable. It is 441 00:28:08,730 --> 00:28:10,850 Speaker 1: strange to be called up by the daughter of a 442 00:28:10,889 --> 00:28:13,129 Speaker 1: woman you spent one day with when you were a 443 00:28:13,129 --> 00:28:16,450 Speaker 1: two year old. In some ways, the story of Anita 444 00:28:16,490 --> 00:28:19,049 Speaker 1: and Stephano was an easier one to tell when it 445 00:28:19,209 --> 00:28:22,969 Speaker 1: was incomplete. A woman immigrates with a baby and thinks 446 00:28:22,970 --> 00:28:25,729 Speaker 1: about him for the rest of her life, and then 447 00:28:26,330 --> 00:28:30,489 Speaker 1: what the baby becomes a man and doesn't care. The 448 00:28:30,530 --> 00:28:34,689 Speaker 1: man who was once the baby faces hardship. Nice anecdotes 449 00:28:34,730 --> 00:28:37,490 Speaker 1: become harder to sum up when you involve the lives 450 00:28:37,530 --> 00:28:38,289 Speaker 1: of real people. 451 00:28:38,930 --> 00:28:42,289 Speaker 10: He took it differently than I thought, definitely took it 452 00:28:42,330 --> 00:28:46,170 Speaker 10: differently than I thought it Just I think the part 453 00:28:46,209 --> 00:28:48,330 Speaker 10: that makes me cry a little bit is that he 454 00:28:48,370 --> 00:28:52,850 Speaker 10: didn't want to hear my mom. Yeah, but you can't 455 00:28:52,930 --> 00:28:56,130 Speaker 10: make people, you know, see things the way you see them. 456 00:28:56,330 --> 00:29:01,729 Speaker 1: You can never assume a gift, you know. Debbie is disappointed, though, 457 00:29:02,209 --> 00:29:04,650 Speaker 1: not just because of what she wanted and didn't get, 458 00:29:04,930 --> 00:29:07,729 Speaker 1: but because of what she did get. Well, our picture 459 00:29:07,730 --> 00:29:10,890 Speaker 1: of Stephen's life is fragmented. Did the details he shared 460 00:29:11,090 --> 00:29:12,570 Speaker 1: contained a lot of sorrow. 461 00:29:12,690 --> 00:29:17,410 Speaker 4: And I don't know how my mom. I think maybe 462 00:29:18,490 --> 00:29:21,290 Speaker 4: how would it have been for her if she would 463 00:29:21,330 --> 00:29:23,410 Speaker 4: have actually met him or talked to him? 464 00:29:23,890 --> 00:29:25,690 Speaker 3: You know, maybe it's better that I did. 465 00:29:26,490 --> 00:29:27,969 Speaker 1: How do you how do you think she would have 466 00:29:29,090 --> 00:29:30,610 Speaker 1: dealt with it? Like, what do you think she would 467 00:29:30,610 --> 00:29:31,290 Speaker 1: have said to him? 468 00:29:31,730 --> 00:29:33,489 Speaker 4: Oh, she would have told him she loved him. She 469 00:29:33,530 --> 00:29:36,769 Speaker 4: probably would have invited him over. Really, she would have 470 00:29:36,770 --> 00:29:41,410 Speaker 4: figured out a way to feed him. My mom loved deeply. Yeah, 471 00:29:41,570 --> 00:29:46,050 Speaker 4: she really loved people deeply. The love that was more 472 00:29:46,090 --> 00:29:48,770 Speaker 4: than pizza. He can't. I don't think he could even 473 00:29:48,770 --> 00:29:51,170 Speaker 4: comprehend it. I think most people couldn't comprehend that. 474 00:29:55,570 --> 00:29:58,090 Speaker 1: In that video of Anita, the one that Stephen didn't 475 00:29:58,090 --> 00:30:00,810 Speaker 1: want to hear, there's a moment where Anita wonders if 476 00:30:00,810 --> 00:30:01,850 Speaker 1: she's being understood. 477 00:30:02,570 --> 00:30:05,130 Speaker 6: That's a nice story, and I don't know if you 478 00:30:05,209 --> 00:30:08,610 Speaker 6: understand it. I think so. 479 00:30:08,650 --> 00:30:11,130 Speaker 1: When I fir saw it, I assumed she was referring 480 00:30:11,170 --> 00:30:14,930 Speaker 1: to her accent or less than perfect English. But now 481 00:30:15,130 --> 00:30:18,090 Speaker 1: I wonder if there was something more behind it. We 482 00:30:18,130 --> 00:30:20,370 Speaker 1: live our lives in the desperate hope that if we 483 00:30:20,450 --> 00:30:23,290 Speaker 1: find the right words, tell the story the right way, 484 00:30:23,770 --> 00:30:28,370 Speaker 1: our love will be understood. We will be understood. We hope, 485 00:30:28,410 --> 00:30:31,410 Speaker 1: even as we misconstrue and grow offended and talk past 486 00:30:31,450 --> 00:30:35,210 Speaker 1: each other, we hope love, some iota of it will 487 00:30:35,209 --> 00:30:39,450 Speaker 1: get through, even though time and time again were disappointed. 488 00:30:44,690 --> 00:30:46,850 Speaker 1: The next time I speak with Debbie, she tells me 489 00:30:46,890 --> 00:30:49,290 Speaker 1: how the night after her call with Stephen, she woke 490 00:30:49,370 --> 00:30:52,410 Speaker 1: up at three am from a bad dream. She got 491 00:30:52,410 --> 00:30:55,930 Speaker 1: out of bed and went downstairs, who was pouring outside, 492 00:30:56,410 --> 00:30:59,530 Speaker 1: And Debbie thought about Stephano, the boy her mother held 493 00:30:59,570 --> 00:31:02,450 Speaker 1: on the airplane back in nineteen fifty nine, And she 494 00:31:02,530 --> 00:31:04,489 Speaker 1: thought about the man she spoke to on the phone 495 00:31:04,930 --> 00:31:08,170 Speaker 1: sixty five years later, and she thought about her mom, 496 00:31:08,490 --> 00:31:12,650 Speaker 1: and she grieved, crying for about an hour. Maybe this 497 00:31:12,690 --> 00:31:16,410 Speaker 1: will plant a seed for Stephen, Debbie tells me, After all, 498 00:31:16,850 --> 00:31:20,410 Speaker 1: he did seem to really want that photograph. Maybe someday 499 00:31:20,570 --> 00:31:22,450 Speaker 1: he'll look back at the things she was trying to 500 00:31:22,490 --> 00:31:25,450 Speaker 1: tell him and he'll finally feel that love from her mother. 501 00:31:26,650 --> 00:31:29,730 Speaker 1: It seems like an unlikely hope, but in this way, 502 00:31:30,250 --> 00:32:18,930 Speaker 1: Debbie is like her mom. 503 00:32:18,970 --> 00:32:28,490 Speaker 11: Now that the Fernitures returning to its goodwill home, now 504 00:32:28,570 --> 00:32:33,370 Speaker 11: that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage 505 00:32:33,410 --> 00:32:37,050 Speaker 11: to pose, take this moment to deserve. 506 00:32:39,130 --> 00:32:44,049 Speaker 1: If we meant it, if we turn we remember, felt 507 00:32:44,130 --> 00:32:55,850 Speaker 1: around for funds from things that accidentally. This episode of 508 00:32:55,850 --> 00:32:59,330 Speaker 1: Heavyweight was produced by Khalila Holt and me Jonathan Goldstein, 509 00:32:59,530 --> 00:33:03,490 Speaker 1: along with Phoebe Flanagan. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane. 510 00:33:03,930 --> 00:33:08,170 Speaker 1: Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Ben Natta, Haaffrey, 511 00:33:08,370 --> 00:33:12,570 Speaker 1: Lucy Sullivan, and Trina Menino. Emma Monger mixed the episode 512 00:33:12,610 --> 00:33:16,170 Speaker 1: with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Samson, and 513 00:33:16,209 --> 00:33:20,090 Speaker 1: Bobby Lord. Additional scoring by Blue Dot Sessions, Saigon Would 514 00:33:20,090 --> 00:33:23,130 Speaker 1: Be Soul and Katie Mullins. Our theme song is by 515 00:33:23,130 --> 00:33:26,249 Speaker 1: the Weaker Than's courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on 516 00:33:26,290 --> 00:33:29,930 Speaker 1: Instagram at Heavyweight Podcast, or email us at Heavyweight at 517 00:33:29,970 --> 00:33:33,290 Speaker 1: pushkin dot Fm. Tune in next week for a special 518 00:33:33,370 --> 00:33:37,770 Speaker 1: Pushkin Anthology show about mistakes with the hosts of Risky Business, 519 00:33:38,050 --> 00:33:42,770 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales and Heavyweight. Hey that's Me