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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. Oh get ready,

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Speaker 2: we're talking true crime all the time. It's Monday, July seventh,

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Speaker 2: and guess what, we have a stacked night of headlines,

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Speaker 2: so listen.

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Speaker 3: Apparently there is no Epstein list. It's official.

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Speaker 2: They're saying there has been no list whatsoever and nothing

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Speaker 2: to see here. Much more on that to come, and

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Speaker 2: also some big developments in the Brian Coburger case Idaho

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Speaker 2: college murders. Lots of people are saying, there's this conversation

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Speaker 2: about in cells, which we were talking, of course about

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Speaker 2: last night. We're going to continue that conversation. Body, I

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Speaker 2: know you're all over that. And also Caitlin Harp, that's

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Speaker 2: the case that we're going to be digging into very deeply.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to start unpacking more about that now.

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Speaker 2: Stephanie Leidecker and I head of KAT Studios, where we

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Speaker 2: make true crime podcasts and documentaries. We hope you'll check

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Speaker 2: them out, Like the Idaho massacre on iHeart, the piked

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Speaker 2: In Massacre also on iHeart, Murder one on one, Hey

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Speaker 2: guess what? Also on iHeart, And also our documentary currently

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Speaker 2: streaming on Peacock called The Idaho Student Murders, which is

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Speaker 2: centered around, obviously the new developments in the Idaho college

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Speaker 2: murders and I get to do that every night with

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Speaker 2: the Body move In and Courtney Armstrong and look, where

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Speaker 2: should we begin? This Epstein thing is pretty incredible.

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Speaker 3: Do we agree? Do we disagree? Any thoughts, ladies?

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Speaker 4: I think it's outrageous and unlikely, is what I think.

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Speaker 3: Listen, if there's no client list, who was he trafficking

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Speaker 3: all these kids to? Where'd they go if there's nobody,

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Speaker 3: If there's nobody, that he's trafficking these children too that

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Speaker 3: he's been accused of. And you know Glene Maxwell too

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Speaker 3: of course she's you know, serving time. Where were were

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Speaker 3: these kids being sent to?

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Speaker 4: So yeah, the brand new news is the Justice Department.

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Speaker 4: In their review, they find that Jeffrey Ebstein, he did

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Speaker 4: as you said, had no client list, and one hundred

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Speaker 4: percent died by suicide. So that is their review. And

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Speaker 4: this comes after an FBI review of the investigation. This

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Speaker 4: all relates to the totally disgraced late financier Jeffrey Ebstein,

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Speaker 4: who was alleged to have had a sex trafficking ring

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Speaker 4: with incredibly high profile people Prince Andrew, Bill Clinton, et cetera.

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Speaker 4: Here's my favorite thing that came out today though, Elon Musk,

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Speaker 4: who for better, for worse or indifferent. Elon Musk is

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Speaker 4: now fighting with President Trump and he posted on x

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Speaker 4: and he was knock in the administration for making no

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Speaker 4: arrests related to the Epstein case. He posted an image

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Speaker 4: of a clock, like an old school digital alarm clock.

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Speaker 4: It had all zeros and it said the official Jeffrey

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Speaker 4: Epstein pedophile arrest counter. What time is it? Oh look,

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Speaker 4: it's no one's been arrested a clock again.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow?

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Speaker 2: Politics aside, right, yeah, let's put it all politics society.

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Speaker 2: It is fascinating that we were told though, by Pam Bondy,

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Speaker 2: that this list was on her desk.

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Speaker 3: Stephanie, I'm looking at a headline from Fox News and

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Speaker 3: it says Bondi says, the Epstein client list is quote

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Speaker 3: sitting on my desk right now and is being reviewed

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Speaker 3: along with JFK and MLK files. So if there's a

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Speaker 3: client list sitting on Bondie's desk. Where's the client list? Wow?

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Speaker 3: Does it not exist? I'm literally being gas lit, real time,

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Speaker 3: real time.

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Speaker 2: And I believe, you know, President Trump has come out

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Speaker 2: to say that, you know, Elon Musk is a train wreck. Again,

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Speaker 2: this is not This is a not I think we

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Speaker 2: can all agree that this is just interesting.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So we're not putting any we're not throwing any shade

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Speaker 2: at any side of this equation, not a Republican or

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Speaker 2: a Democrat or anyone in between. But this list has been,

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Speaker 2: you know, highly coveted for a very long time. Names

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Speaker 2: had been released, you know, previously, and those had been redacted,

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Speaker 2: those lists, So the flyers, the unreducted list, yet the

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Speaker 2: flight logs, all of the above, and you know, I

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Speaker 2: just do think it's interesting, and I don't know what

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Speaker 2: that means. We'd love to hear from you too, By

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Speaker 2: the way, join the conversation eight eight eight three one crime.

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Speaker 2: What do you make of this because obviously we don't

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Speaker 2: have the answers. It seems like we won't get the answers.

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Speaker 2: And I'm just curious, why do you think it's You

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Speaker 2: guys think it's like, uh, you know, somebody's protecting people

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Speaker 2: on this list, or is it?

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Speaker 3: I mean, what do you think. I think people think

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Speaker 3: they're they're protecting or maybe or maybe they're scared to

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Speaker 3: release it. Like you know, we when we were having

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Speaker 3: the show talk earlier, we were talking about maybe we

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Speaker 3: shouldn't talk about this because maybe, you know, we will

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Speaker 3: end up in trouble, you know, but we're gonna get killed.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna get killed. Maybe somebody in the higher up

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Speaker 3: is worried about their own safety. I don't know I exactly.

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Speaker 3: I just feel like we're being gaslet I there's.

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Speaker 4: A lot of names, a lot of pictures, and I

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Speaker 4: think it is gaslighting is a perfect word. It's like, listen,

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Speaker 4: do not believe you're lying eyes And it seems like

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Speaker 4: the FBI has tried to put a real bow on

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Speaker 4: it again to see here there is no list. Jeffrey

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Speaker 4: Epstein totally died by his own hand, and they released

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Speaker 4: video footage where they said and it's available to the public,

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Speaker 4: and they said, look Epstein, he was locked in his cell,

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Speaker 4: nobody entered it, and.

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Speaker 3: They released an eleven hour video. Did you guys see this? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: So for those who don't know. They released an eleven

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Speaker 3: hour video of the outside of what they said is

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Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein's cell, and they say that it's from the

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Speaker 3: timeframe in which he committed suicide. And of course in

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Speaker 3: this eleven hour video, we don't see anybody entering the cell,

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Speaker 3: but I mean you can't see inside the cell to

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Speaker 3: even see if it's him or not. I mean, that

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Speaker 3: could be anything and anyway time exactly.

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Speaker 2: And also, you know, we've talked about this to nauseum,

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Speaker 2: you know, outside of this show on previous projects with

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Speaker 2: our forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, who's really looked at

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Speaker 2: the forensics of this said suicide and it seems pretty unlikely,

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Speaker 2: and we should actually have him on to sort of

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Speaker 2: explain it, because I feel like I'll muffle it up

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Speaker 2: a little bit. But there's really good indications that this

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Speaker 2: was not suicide. And also a former inmate from that

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Speaker 2: same facility, who also had been in that cell when

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Speaker 2: Epstein was there, very clearly has said publicly there's zero

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Speaker 2: chance that anybody could commit suicide in that cell. And

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Speaker 2: I guess that's the larger fearful question. Why, what's the

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Speaker 2: what's the cover here, and you know, let's assume that again,

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Speaker 2: taking any administration out of it, Let's assume Trump really

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Speaker 2: wants to release this and wants to do the right

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Speaker 2: thing by it. You know, why the why the sudden change,

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Speaker 2: And I have to assume it's because, you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: it's for our own safety.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, But how can we release something that

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Speaker 4: doesn't exist? As they're saying this, you know, alleged list,

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Speaker 4: they just said, it simply doesn't exist. Now even though

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Speaker 4: was on her desk, correct, it doesn't exist. Wow, it's

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Speaker 4: literally like they're literally gaslighting us a real time.

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Speaker 2: That's actually very true. And you bring up Galeen Maxwell.

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Speaker 2: So if you haven't been close to the Epstein case,

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Speaker 2: Geleen Maxwell was kind of his like right hand woman.

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Speaker 2: We've referenced those, you know, parallels between this case and

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Speaker 2: maybe the Diddy case. Right, and listen, there is some

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Speaker 2: obvious crossover power fame video. That's a big one. Right,

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Speaker 2: So you know, in theory, young girls were giving massages

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Speaker 2: to very high profile in very high profile, not hip hop,

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Speaker 2: high profile in the Epstein world.

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Speaker 3: It was like world leaders, right.

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Speaker 2: Maybe being brought drawn to his island and suddenly there's videotape.

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Speaker 2: Obviously we haven't seen that videotape, but there was that

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Speaker 2: documentary that I thought was, you know, really well done

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Speaker 2: called Filthy Rich, and you know, the main subject of

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Speaker 2: Virginia Gouffrey, who was like the main victim, you know,

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Speaker 2: she you know, sadly took her life back in April

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Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five. I can't help but wonder if

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Speaker 2: there's a connection to all of this that maybe we're

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Speaker 2: just not able to piece together because we don't have

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Speaker 2: all the information.

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Speaker 3: I think you're right.

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I think it's a big world and

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Speaker 4: there are many possibilities. Is it possible in the scope

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Speaker 4: of the universe? Of course? Also in my mind likely

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Speaker 4: she was a troubled woman. She had a hard life.

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Speaker 4: She was abused if you believe her allegations, which there's

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Speaker 4: no reason not to, and that can also drive a

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Speaker 4: person to hurt themselves.

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Speaker 3: Wasn't it so weird?

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Speaker 4: Though?

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Speaker 2: Remember she was in the bus accidents or yeah, that

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Speaker 2: was that could have that could have made things worse

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Speaker 2: for her mentally though.

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Speaker 3: You know, recovery is hard, Yeah, that's fair.

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Speaker 4: Recovery is hard. This is true crime tonight, we're on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 4: I'm Courtney Armstrong here with Body Movin and Stephanie Leidecker.

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Speaker 4: Right now, we're talking Ebstein. Later we're talking in cells,

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Speaker 4: Brian Cooberger and lots of other things in the news.

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Speaker 4: Please join us. We're at eighty eight three one crime.

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Speaker 4: We want to hear your thoughts or give us a

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Speaker 4: talk pack on the iHeartRadio app. When you're on that app,

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Speaker 4: you just click on the red microphone in the upper

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Speaker 4: right hand corner, leave a message, and you're on the show.

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Speaker 4: So I don't know this will this will continue? What

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Speaker 4: do you guys think will be the end result? Does

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Speaker 4: it end here today? I don't think anybody's buying it.

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Speaker 2: So no, I guess whether we want this to be

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Speaker 2: the end of the road or otherwise. It just seems

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Speaker 2: a little you know, sus.

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Speaker 3: But I was on Go Ahead, I was on X today,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I think this is one of the

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Speaker 3: things that all Americans can agree on. Whether you're the

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Speaker 3: right side of the aisle or the left side of

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Speaker 3: the aisle, Everyone on both sides of the aisle are like,

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Speaker 3: what maybe this is something that brings America together, the truth?

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Ah, men. Wouldn't it be great?

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Speaker 3: It would? It would? I have an update on Travis Decker. Ooh,

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Speaker 3: so Travis Decker. He's the man that's been accused of

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Speaker 3: killing his three beautiful young daughters in Washington State earlier

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Speaker 3: last month, on June second, Decker he remains at large,

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Speaker 3: more than a month after his daughter's Peyton nine years old,

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Speaker 3: Evelyn eight years old, and Olivia five years old. Beautiful

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Speaker 3: little girls were found dead near Red Rock Island campground,

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Speaker 3: remember on June second. Well, he's been basically they've been

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Speaker 3: tracking him for the past month and a half. And

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Speaker 3: we got word last week I think it was you

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Speaker 3: guys that they believe he might be dead, right right,

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Speaker 3: and that they were bringing in cadaver dogs to start

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Speaker 3: looking for him. He's been on the run since he

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Speaker 3: is a former you know, military guy. He has survival training.

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Speaker 3: You know, he has some potential mental issues, you know,

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Speaker 3: things that were really kind of playing games with his mind.

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Speaker 3: And well, he's been spotted in Idaho by campers. And

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Speaker 3: I watched a news report earlier today with US Marshall

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Speaker 3: Michael Lee, and he said that the family that spotted

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Speaker 3: Travis Decker described him very well in even his tattoos.

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Speaker 3: And they said, prior to seeing him in the real person,

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Speaker 3: they had never seen the picture of his tattoos, which

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Speaker 3: is interesting because you know, normally, you know, you can

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Speaker 3: look at a picture of Travis Decker and describe his tattoos.

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Speaker 3: But they're saying they never saw those photos. Wow. So

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Speaker 3: but they were able to describe his tattoos, which is

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Speaker 3: one of the reasons the US Marshal Service is taking

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Speaker 3: it so seriously.

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Speaker 2: Wow, I wouldn't know his tattoos off the top of

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Speaker 2: my head.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So that's pretty telling that it's a reliable eyewitness. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it is. It's very telling. So I thought that was

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Speaker 3: really interesting. And you know, now they're looking in the

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Speaker 3: area of this campground in Idaho, So if you're in

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Speaker 3: Idaho in the saw Tooth National Forest area, the Bear

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Speaker 3: Creek area specifically, keep an eye out, you know, the

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Speaker 3: US Marshall Service are you know, looking for him. So

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Speaker 3: that was really interesting. They described him as a white

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Speaker 3: male anywhere from five to eight five feet eight inches tall,

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Speaker 3: wearing a black mesh cap, black gauged earrings, which Travistecker has,

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Speaker 3: which is a detail that's interesting, cream colored t shirt,

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Speaker 3: black shorts, low top sneakers, and a black garment style watch.

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Speaker 3: He also had a long ponytail, which Travis Decker did,

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Speaker 3: and an overgrown beard and mustache, and was carrying a

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Speaker 3: black JanSport backpack.

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Speaker 2: He would be very dangerous at this point, you know again,

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Speaker 2: I mean he's been off his medication, he's been in

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Speaker 2: half medication, and he just you know, maybe murdered his children.

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Speaker 2: That has to sink in at some point. And you've

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Speaker 2: been living in the wilderness this entire time. Somebody must

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Speaker 2: be aiding and abetting him. I would think, how would

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Speaker 2: you know that many weeks in the wall and he's.

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Speaker 3: Apparently been injured too, with this blood in the truck

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Speaker 3: that matched his DNA so they found they found blood

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Speaker 3: like handprints. I think that's right on the back of

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Speaker 3: this truck that is his blood, which is crazy. So

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Speaker 3: you know, just when we learned last week that they

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Speaker 3: thought he might be dead, I was like, well, he's

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Speaker 3: got to be injured. But he also.

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Speaker 4: Has military training of survivalists, so that will go a

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Speaker 4: really long way in surviving in the wilderness, right, So

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Speaker 4: I don't know, but yeah, stay on the lookout. Definitely dangerous.

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Speaker 4: Listen coming up Caitlyn Harp's tragic death, her husband's interarreested.

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Speaker 4: A New Mexico woman is missing after she brought lunch

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Speaker 4: to her child. We're gonna hear what her family is saying.

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Speaker 4: Do not forget to give us a call eight at

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Speaker 4: eight to three one Crime. We want to hear your thoughts.

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Speaker 4: And actually, when we come back, we have a caller

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Speaker 4: on the line regarding Epstein. Keep it here True Crime tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. And Look News would say

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Speaker 2: that there is no Epstein list. Apparently I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Do we buy it?

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Speaker 2: Please call us eight eight eight three one crime, And

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Speaker 2: in fact, the phones are off the hook. Renee, thank

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Speaker 2: you for joining us and for calling. What's your question?

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Speaker 5: Hey, Well, I absolutely love your show at night. I

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Speaker 5: just found you guys. I'm not even gonna lie. I

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Speaker 5: absolutely love you too. I'm never usually out late.

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Speaker 3: So what about me? Everybody? This is body. I feel

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Speaker 3: a little left out, Renee, I'm feeling a little left out.

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Speaker 2: Okay, sorry, it's nice.

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Speaker 3: We're just tell us, yeah, give us the scoop on

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Speaker 3: all things. Oh my god, I have.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I've been really jumping down the rabbit

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Speaker 5: hole for the last quite a few years and just

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Speaker 5: doing a lot of my own research, and you know,

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Speaker 5: I'm I try to stay away from the propaganda and

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Speaker 5: the news and just you know, and really kind of

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Speaker 5: just dig into my own research. But I mean, I mean,

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Speaker 5: we got to be clear. Now, we were told there was.

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Speaker 6: A list, right right.

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Speaker 5: Be a newly appointed president promised to release this list.

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Speaker 5: I believe he said day one. Right now he's being

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Speaker 5: accused of being on the list, and now the list

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Speaker 5: suddenly doesn't exist.

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Speaker 3: Correct.

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Speaker 5: Correct for me, I believe that the Epstein client list

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Speaker 5: does exist. We will never have it. They'll never release

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Speaker 5: it because frankly, and you know, I'm just one of

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Speaker 5: those people that speak it like it is. You know,

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Speaker 5: too many elite people right now would go down and plays.

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Speaker 5: And that's the reality.

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Speaker 3: I think you're spot on.

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Speaker 6: Now.

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Speaker 5: Even our own president is scared to release it, even

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Speaker 5: though it was one of his campaign promises. So now

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Speaker 5: he's leaving people in the dark. But I'm sorry, we

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Speaker 5: the people like, we're not dull, we're not goible.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more.

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Speaker 2: I here's my wonder, what do you think about this

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Speaker 2: working theory of mine? Is it possible that Jeffrey Epstein

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Speaker 2: was a double agent working for many sides and was

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Speaker 2: luring world leaders to this said island to put them

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Speaker 2: in compromising positions and then have video of it and

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Speaker 2: then say, oop, sorry, you can't really do what you

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Speaker 2: want to because I will hold this over your head.

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Speaker 2: Not maybe so dissimilar to what we were seeing in

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Speaker 2: the I mean, I'm not making a direct connection to Diddy,

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Speaker 2: but just the idea that there's tape that could be

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Speaker 2: used as revenge for power?

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Speaker 3: Why else would they not release this at this point?

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Speaker 4: I know?

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Speaker 3: But do you really think they would put children at

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Speaker 3: risk to get this double agent story? Like there's there's

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Speaker 3: still real children? Right? Well, well, here's something that absolutely

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Speaker 3: that's a fair point.

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Speaker 4: I can't figure out, thank you, thank you listening. But

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Speaker 4: the FBI and the Justice Department said in a memo

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Speaker 4: that the review confirmed Epstein harmed more than a thousand victims,

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Speaker 4: many of them under age, and each of whom suffered

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Speaker 4: quote unique trauma. Okay, if their investigation found these victims,

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Speaker 4: to your earlier point, body, where are the perpetrators of

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Speaker 4: the crimes?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: And then why is maxwechildren, Yeah, why is Gilaine Maxwell?

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Speaker 2: And this is not my opinion, I just observationally speaking,

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Speaker 2: and Renee, I'm with you one hundred percent. Is it

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Speaker 2: possible that Gilayne Maxwell Epstein's number, you know, number two

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Speaker 2: right hand woman. She's serving time and some said location

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Speaker 2: under the you know, dead of night for forever or

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Speaker 2: many many years. Then why was she arrested and brought

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Speaker 2: up on charges in serving time. I'm not trying saying

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Speaker 2: to release Gilain Maxwell. I'm just saying I find it

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Speaker 2: curious that. But you know, the main victim has taken

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Speaker 2: her life for related reasons or otherwise. But we certainly

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Speaker 2: can't ask her now because that just happened in April.

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Speaker 2: You know, May she rest in peace. It was not

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Speaker 2: an easy life and takes courage to come out as

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Speaker 2: a victim, which we're seeing in many cases right now.

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Speaker 2: And this list has been talked about two nauseum. And

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Speaker 2: by the way, I think it is worth noting because

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Speaker 2: the list that had been shared, or some of the

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Speaker 2: names that had been shared, some of them were like

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Speaker 2: kind of just they he knew them, Like for example,

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Speaker 2: there were some like famous actresses on it. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: they were saying that, oh, these were sex traffickers. It

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Speaker 2: was that there was a connection or they loosely knew Epstein.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps right, So just because you're maybe on this said

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Speaker 2: list doesn't mean that you're a sex trafficker, or doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean that you did terrible, violent things.

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Speaker 3: This is called the client list, though I guess, so,

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Speaker 3: I guess these are people if they're on this list,

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Speaker 3: they were somehow clients of Epstein in order to partake

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Speaker 3: in these crimes against these you know, underaged people kids.

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Speaker 3: And if you're a client, you're not a guest. Right.

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Speaker 2: The other side to that is, oh, come to my

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Speaker 2: island as a guest, and.

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Speaker 3: That's one thing.

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Speaker 2: These weird things happen, and I don't know add water, instant, terrible.

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Speaker 3: You know this, but you're right, the client client I

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Speaker 3: should know this.

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Speaker 4: But how did Jeffrey Epstein become so wealthy?

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Speaker 2: I can tell you. Okay, don't get me started. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So Jeffrey Jephanie's favorite subject.

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Speaker 3: Here we go subject.

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Speaker 2: So I'm you know, listen, I'm blinking twice right now

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Speaker 2: and holding up a sign. If something terrible happens to

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Speaker 2: me overnight, it wasn't me there there it's been alleged

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Speaker 2: that there was this very wealthy man who he ran

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Speaker 2: like the abercrom not Abercrombie, but I do want to

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Speaker 2: get to that sidebar the limited and victorious secret. His

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Speaker 2: last name is Wexler, and he was, you know, extremely

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Speaker 2: wealthy and allegedly was the person who was funding Epstein.

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Speaker 2: In fact, at some point Epstein was as a teacher

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Speaker 2: at a very high profile school in New York City.

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Speaker 2: That would be a very hard job to get, but

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Speaker 2: he didn't even have the credentials to get that job,

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Speaker 2: and allegedly had been funded by these very expensive billionaires. Remember,

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Speaker 2: he lived the high life, the fanciist, you know, the

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Speaker 2: fanciist little Brownstone and all things.

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Speaker 3: New York City.

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Speaker 2: And he owned an island and he you know, Courtney,

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Speaker 2: You and I did this documentary about trafficking called Murdered

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Speaker 2: and Missing in Montana, which really looked at Native American reservations,

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Speaker 2: and I was pretty convinced, although we never really proved

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Speaker 2: it enough for it to air on the Dock, I

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Speaker 2: was kind of convinced that Epstein's ranch, which at the

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Speaker 2: time was in New Mexico, this is pre the island

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Speaker 2: that we all know about that that was sort of

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Speaker 2: ground zero for some trafficking and that might have been

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Speaker 2: involved with some of the reservations that we were looking into.

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Speaker 2: I'm still not just I'm still not convinced that that's

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Speaker 2: not accurate.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that absolutely was your theory dating back years. Now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio where we

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Speaker 3: talk true crime all the time, and we're right in

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Speaker 3: the middle of some Epstein talk about this client list

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Speaker 3: that does not exist or does exist, won't be released,

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Speaker 3: will be released? Give us a call, eighty eight thirty

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Speaker 3: one crime. What do you think about this? This is

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Speaker 3: pretty significant news. This is you know, we've been hearing

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Speaker 3: for years and years and years this Epstein lists the

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Speaker 3: flight logs and to our colorinase point, President Trump said

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Speaker 3: that day one this was going to be released, and

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Speaker 3: now we're being told it doesn't even exist.

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Speaker 2: And maybe it's possible either that. Yes, obviously there's photographs

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Speaker 2: and stuff of nobody wants to say any photographs, right,

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Speaker 2: there's photographs of you know, Trump and Epstein.

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Speaker 3: But Epstein was.

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Speaker 2: Buds with everybody, right, that was a stick. He was

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Speaker 2: like the most charismatic man in town. You know, he

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Speaker 2: was good looking, he was affluent. He liked to party.

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Speaker 2: Shall he liked to party, allegedly liked young women and massages.

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Speaker 4: I was gonna say loved a massage.

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Speaker 3: He just really loved a massage. I love a massage.

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Speaker 3: I mean I do you did not this kind and

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Speaker 3: don't go to the island.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: Imagine you're a young girl and you're said to meet

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Speaker 2: somebody in this Epstein world and they're like, hey, you

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Speaker 2: can catch a little extra cash. Come to this island

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Speaker 2: to give massuses to you know, Epstein and some of

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Speaker 2: his bug Do you do that when you're underage? I mean,

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Speaker 2: is that what happens? I realized passport away and suddenly

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Speaker 2: you're no.

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Speaker 3: But I'm seventeen. How do I get to an island?

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Speaker 3: I'm sixteen? How do I get to this island? How

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Speaker 3: do I leave my parents? How do I get permission?

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Speaker 3: Because you're beautiful?

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Speaker 4: And you meet Gulaane Maxwell and she's like, hey, I

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Speaker 4: have an opportunity for a pretty girl like you.

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Speaker 3: And my parents just go okay.

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Speaker 2: Some of them don't have great parents, or they do,

434
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,120
Speaker 2: and they're just like, you know, a little bit more

435
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 2: of a wild card. You know, there's many things that

436
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 2: I you know said would do at a certain time.

437
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 2: You know that looking back, I'm like, huh, I could

438
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 2: have died that day, you know, and just like life

439
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 2: didn't work out that way because you want decision that

440
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 2: one bad decision away from destruction, right right.

441
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 3: And young people, you know, so these are like third

442
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,080
Speaker 3: so the victims are Listen. I don't know a lot

443
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 3: about the Epstein stuff I had. You know, it's kind

444
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 3: of one of those things where I was like, oh,

445
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 3: you know, I just it's too much like kids and

446
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 3: just too much for me. You know, I have a line, right,

447
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 3: even I have a line, and you know, so I

448
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 3: don't really know much about like the victims. I assumed

449
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 3: they were young children, but what you're saying is that

450
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 3: these were, you know, girls that were experienced enough to

451
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 3: be like messuses of some kind. So I'm thinking, you know, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen,

452
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 3: is that about right?

453
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: Even a little older, even like post high school, you know,

454
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: maybe early college. That like twinkle time of life where

455
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,160
Speaker 2: you're in between worlds and like, you know, kind of

456
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,479
Speaker 2: the perfect target if you're a little off track in

457
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 2: your world and you're beautiful and you want to you know,

458
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,680
Speaker 2: be in the right circle. You know, you can kind

459
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,679
Speaker 2: of see how that happens. A plane, private plane to

460
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 2: some island, they take her passport and now my door

461
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 2: is locked behind you. And and I think this is

462
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 2: where the Diddy connection comes from. Is how is grooming happening?

463
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 2: Is that too strong of a word. I don't know

464
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 2: the answer to this, but I do think it's worth

465
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 2: looking into. We should have someone from that documentary, We'll

466
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 2: look into this. Maybe they can come on and give

467
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 2: us some behind the scenes to it, because it was

468
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 2: a big machine, allegedly, and we've been told this and

469
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 2: have been following this for years and years and years

470
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 2: to have it just be a non starter, or maybe

471
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 2: our president really wanted to release the list. And it's

472
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 2: called Filthy Rich on Netflix, okay, and it has a

473
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 2: lot of the victims that are very you know, forward

474
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 2: facing and you know, came forward and Gelane Maxwell really

475
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 2: was brought into charges. The Gelaine Maxwell part is particularly

476
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 2: odd because listen, as a woman, as a young girl,

477
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 2: you see another woman it's on some you know, skivy

478
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: man coming onto you as a you know, girl to girl,

479
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 2: you feel a little safer because, oh, a woman wouldn't

480
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 2: do that to me.

481
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 3: A woman wouldn't pull me into that circle.

482
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 2: And that's the connection to Diddy and his head chief

483
00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: of staff allegedly, allegedly allegedly, now we know that's completely unproved.

484
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 3: We'll never really know.

485
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 4: And body, to answer your earlier question, it was a

486
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 4: lot of sort of pyramid style recruitment that Epstein and

487
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 4: his associates used, so young women would then recruit other

488
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 4: young women under the guise of hey, such easy money.

489
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 4: And listen, this was people were approached at schools and

490
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 4: malls and parks, so.

491
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 3: They were like recruiting from these actively places and you're

492
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 3: looking for the girl who maybe is in a fight

493
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 3: with mom and dad, dropped out of school, or doesn't

494
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 3: have resources as they're working at a junkie job.

495
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 5: Right.

496
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 3: Well, coming up, we are going to go over some

497
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 3: pretty strange parallels between infamous in cel Elliott Rodger and

498
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 3: the Idaho student murderer Brian Coberger. Could it be coincidence

499
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 3: or potential evidence of a deeper link. Stay right here, True.

500
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 2: Welcome back to true Crime tonight an iHeart Radio. We're

501
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. We've been talking Epstein,

502
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 2: so if you want to join the conversation, please do

503
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: eight e eight three one crime.

504
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 3: We want to hear from you. We want your opinions.

505
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 2: Let them be different than ours or right on track

506
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 2: with ours.

507
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 3: I'm personally going to try not to get killed.

508
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: We're relocating as we speak, but I definitely want to

509
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: talk more about it, and we'll be digging into this

510
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 2: more throughout the week. But first, we also want to

511
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 2: talk about the Kaitlyn Harp case. And this is one

512
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 2: that's close to the heart here. Body's been following it

513
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: very closely. And also these you know, kind of new

514
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 2: distinctive similarities potentially between Brian Coburger, who's now pled guilty

515
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: to murdering the four Idaho college murders and this thing

516
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 2: called in cells i nc e LS and that's becoming

517
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 2: our new internal buzzword. And listen, it's a scary thing

518
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 2: and important for us to unpack. So we'll do more

519
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 2: on that later. So Caitlin Harp, let's start there.

520
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, So this is kind of you know, this is

521
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 3: kind of a story of a determined sibling. Really, that's

522
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 3: kind of what it boils down to. So Caitlyn Harp,

523
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 3: she is a woman who went missing and her determined sibling,

524
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 3: Heather Lane was basically solved the mystery of her sister's

525
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 3: murder after a nine day search. Her brother in law,

526
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 3: Caitlyn's husband, is now in jail. So Caitlyn Harp's remains

527
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 3: were located by her sister, Heather Lane, as she searched

528
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 3: a really densely forested forty acre property once owned by

529
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 3: her brother in law, Vincent. Vincent Harp faces multiple serious charges,

530
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 3: including homicide, for the murder of his wife Caitlyn. So

531
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 3: she was reported missing on June twentieth by her sister, Heather,

532
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 3: who said she missed their daily phone call. These sisters

533
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 3: are incredibly close. So Caitlyn she was reported missing by

534
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 3: her sister, and her Life three sixty had not updated

535
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 3: from the previous day, so her sister, of course is

536
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 3: checking her location. It's not updating. It's scary rewarded her

537
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: sister missing. Her husband, Vincent Hart, sold a utility vehicle

538
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 3: four days after his wife's death. I mean that's kind

539
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 3: of alarming, right, that tested positive for blood and troopers

540
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 3: found footage of him driving with a large green box.

541
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 3: Remember I was talking, Yeah, and a couple of shows

542
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 3: ago about like a tool kind of box that was

543
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 3: like a green kind of box. Well, the sister searched

544
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 3: this old property and found this box, called the police.

545
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 3: The police came, they unlocked the box and inside this

546
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 3: box was unfortunately, her sister, Caitlin Harp, and they identified her.

547
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 3: Apparently she was in an advanced state of decomp which

548
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 3: is horrifying, and they identified her through the She has

549
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 3: like an eleven eleven tattoo on hers my favorite hambers.

550
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, eleven eleven Angel members, right have that income

551
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 2: We had that yeah on her som hmmm.

552
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 3: So that's how they identified her. You know, it's just

553
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 3: it's it's so sad, but it's also like inspirational in

554
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 3: a sense of like don't give up, you know, like

555
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 3: don't if you think something's wrong, listen to your gut

556
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 3: something's wrong. This sister did not give up. She kept looking.

557
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: And it's remarkable you both have sisters. I only have brothers,

558
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 2: and I only have a brother.

559
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 3: I listen for some reason, Why am I saying that?

560
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 5: So?

561
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 3: But think about it, you're my sisters. Yeah.

562
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: But like as somebody who's raised by boys too, like, yeah,

563
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 2: you got to fight a little bit harder.

564
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 3: You know.

565
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 2: Police have a lot on their plate on a daily

566
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: basis to cover crimes and keep us safe in the now.

567
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 2: Sometimes if something's not feeling right, you know, leave it

568
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 2: to a family member. We see this time and time

569
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 2: and time again that it's that family member who goes

570
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 2: the extra distance.

571
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 3: I have to.

572
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 4: Say, this sticks out to me that the Life three

573
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 4: sixty also was part of you know, raising her alarms

574
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 4: and that, if I'm remembering correctly, was Shade Robinson, the

575
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 4: poor girl who died. That was a way that she

576
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 4: was Yeah, found her and her case was solved. So

577
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 4: you know, we are not sponsored by Life three sixty,

578
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 4: but it sounds like it's common in handy in some capacities.

579
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I use it. You know, truth be told. You know,

580
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: we all sort of need to kind of keep our

581
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: circles tight. I feel pretty confident that if I went missing,

582
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: you guys would find me.

583
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, I wouldn't give up. Yeah, So he's he

584
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 3: doesn't have a lawyer at this time. He's currently in jail.

585
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 3: He doesn't have a lawyer, but he's due back in

586
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 3: court in like seven days July fourteenth, so he'll probably

587
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 3: be arraigned and all that and indicted and blah blah.

588
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: They're probably a preliminary hearing coming up and we'll get

589
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 3: some answers. And this happened in Pennsylvania, so it's not

590
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 3: sad to.

591
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 4: Say, not for nothing, but how in the universe do

592
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 4: you take a car also that you have not cleaned

593
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 4: and sell it to someone four days after you know,

594
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 4: and this is alleged. We don't know if he indeed

595
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 4: murdered her, but yeah, yeah.

596
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: Do you allegedly allegedly capital exclamation point. But you know

597
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 2: how hard it is to sell a car. Have you

598
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: guys ever tried selling Well, it was it was all like.

599
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 3: A utility via like a Forerunner type, that's true, like

600
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 3: an ATV.

601
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to post it, you gotta make you know, arrangements,

602
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 2: You gotta make yourself a veil four days after your

603
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: you know, beloved is ough. That to me is just

604
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: absurd and takes a lot of work and effort court

605
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: And we saw this in the piked and massacre as well,

606
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 2: when that vehicle that there was like a murder vehicle

607
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: that the accused, well.

608
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 3: Not so much accused the road.

609
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, like they the victims, the rodents, you know again,

610
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: may they rest in peace? You know, the the killers,

611
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 2: you know, bought a vehicle for the spirit of killing

612
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: and then sold it. And you think to yourself, who

613
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 2: has the wherewithal to sell a vehicle, let alone do

614
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: it after such a tragedy.

615
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 3: I mean, think of all those things that you would

616
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 3: have to do to cover up a murder, Like you're

617
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 3: cleaning your arranging your and now you have to sell

618
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 3: a vehicle on top of the pack. It's crazy.

619
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 2: One would assume you're like unregulated emotionally and you're like that.

620
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,479
Speaker 2: It takes it's another layer that throwaway to key. If

621
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: this ends up being.

622
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 3: Dru well, there's currently no motive. There's no like, you know,

623
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,959
Speaker 3: confirmed motive for Vincent's allegedly killing his wife, Caitlin, but

624
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 3: investigators have noted the couple had an argument shortly before

625
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 3: her disappearance. I think if you remember, she was in

626
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 3: the shower and her husband saw a snapchat message come

627
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 3: up on her phone, and the husband said it was

628
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 3: no big deal. He asked her about it, and it

629
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 3: was like an old high school friend or something. It was.

630
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 3: He made it seem like it wasn't a big deal. However,

631
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 3: many are speculating that in fact was a big deal

632
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 3: and that he killed her for it. But that's all speculation.

633
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 3: We don't have any any confirmed information about that. Very interesting,

634
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 3: it's fir sod too and scary. We're following this one

635
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 3: very closely. Right, So you're listening to True Crime tonight.

636
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 3: I'm body movin and I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker and

637
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 3: Corney Armstrong and we're right in the middle of some

638
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 3: cases that we're bringing to you. Stay right here, Courtney,

639
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 3: What do you have for us?

640
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 4: A little bit of good news if we Yeah, it's

641
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 4: good news and we bring it. Yeah, we started to

642
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 4: talk at the very end of last night's show. But

643
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 4: there is a a Texas rape law where a loophole

644
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 4: has been closed, and so in Texas, the law requires

645
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 4: that for a sexual assault to be prosecuted based on

646
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 4: a victim being incapacitated, which unfortunately is very common, the

647
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 4: offender must have caused the victim's incapacitation or the victim

648
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 4: must be unconscious or physically unable to resist. So what

649
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 4: that fancy legally means is basically, the actual rapist needs

650
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 4: to have physically handed, you know, some kind of you know,

651
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 4: incapacitating drug. So what that meant was that if you

652
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 4: were at a party or in anything, and you had

653
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 4: a sip of a drink of your own volition, or

654
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 4: someone else even gave it to you that a person

655
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 4: who was sexually assaulted, it didn't meet the legal standard

656
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 4: for rape.

657
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 3: I mean, so I go to a party. Let me

658
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 3: get a straight I go to a party, or I'm

659
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 3: at a bar and I'm drinking and I'm knocked out drunk,

660
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 3: yep in some is like come home with me or whatever,

661
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,719
Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh no, I don't want to, and

662
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 3: I somehow end up going and I get assaulted. There's

663
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 3: nothing I can do about it.

664
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 4: According to the law, there was not, and that loophole

665
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 4: has now been closed. But think of how pervasive that

666
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 4: situation happens.

667
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: And it's only been like that loophole has been closed

668
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: in only a few places.

669
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 3: I was just gonna have many others.

670
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 2: What other states have this loophole? I have additional states

671
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 2: still have this loop open. Kid take me if I'm wrong,

672
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 2: But it's a pretty ghastly number. I don't have the

673
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 2: exact number in front of me. It is worth finding out,

674
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: but it is something in that arena. Stephanie, What if

675
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: I'm drinking lemonade and I get roofied. That's my question.

676
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 2: So let's play that horrible scenario out. Have you guys

677
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 2: ever seen promising young women? No, promising young women? Yeah,

678
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: that was a I think it was the Academy Award

679
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: winning film several years ago. So good, it's cofly worth

680
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: a checkout. It's a film. Yeah, it's a movie. Forgetting

681
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 2: the actress's name, but she's so brilliant in it. But

682
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 2: the idea being or even just like we've seen the

683
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: Diddy case, We've seen all kinds of things where allegedly

684
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 2: alcohol and drugs were involved. So let's just talk worst

685
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 2: case scenario. You as a very sober young woman, go

686
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: to a party, you're offered a cocktail, You take that cocktail,

687
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 2: you're drugged in this cocktail, somehow you're roofed, you somehow

688
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: pass out, you're sexually assaulted. Maybe there's even proof that

689
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 2: you're sexually assaulted, but just the fact that you had

690
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 2: alcohol and or drugs in your system, suddenly that doesn't count.

691
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 2: The sexual assault is like unwarranted. Am I understanding that?

692
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 3: No?

693
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 4: That is as absurd as that sounds. That's absolutely correct,

694
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 4: which boggles my mind, because.

695
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 3: You doesn't matter what the assailant has done, like if

696
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,439
Speaker 3: they've been drinking, nobody cares. Have we not been paying

697
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 3: attention all week? Nobody cares? And nobody cares. It's nice.

698
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 5: I heard.

699
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 3: It's crazy. How naive I am totally forgot this because

700
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh there, oh my god.

701
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 4: Yes, But so here we are and let's try and

702
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 4: find that answer of how many states still have this

703
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 4: loophole open? But again it has been closed.

704
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 3: In Texas.

705
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 4: It is called both Summer Willis Act, and she is

706
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 4: a rape survivor for many years and she has made

707
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 4: great strides to help this law come to be. So

708
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 4: here is to you.

709
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 3: Here's to you. Yeah, congratulations, congratulations Texas women. That's wonderful.

710
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 3: You know, from another perspective, what if I am at

711
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 3: a bar and I'm drinking and I meet someone and

712
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 3: they're drinking. We're both drinking, and we end up leaving

713
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 3: together fooling around and I changed my mind. No I'm

714
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 3: not interested, but they're not changing their mind. But that

715
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 3: person is also impaired, right, We're both impaired. Is it

716
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 3: because of that? Is it because like that person the

717
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 3: assailant was wasn't also in their friend of mine? That's

718
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 3: why I asked about what doesn't matter what the assailant

719
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,959
Speaker 3: has drinken. Right, we're both impaired. That's an interesting point,

720
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 3: Like that person would never do that normally, but we're

721
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 3: both impaired, right, Is that ever? Is that like a

722
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 3: consideration with this little pool.

723
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 2: That's a good point, by the way, it's a very

724
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 2: good perspective, and you know, that's a very good perspective.

725
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 3: But I do wonder that in the law.

726
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 2: It's not an excuse, of course, but like that should

727
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 2: be sort of trying to figure out a pox on

728
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 2: both houses. If that's the case, it just seems like

729
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 2: it's so targeted specifically to the victim.

730
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 3: To the victim, right, Well, that's a fair point. Here.

731
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 4: Here's how I see it. And this is a real

732
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 4: nuts and bolts way. If I signed a contract and

733
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 4: I'm drunk, that doesn't stand because I was not able

734
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 4: to actually have like full capacity. And then if you extrapolate,

735
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 4: and I do hear your point, body, but extrapolate from there,

736
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 4: I was drunk and I went too far in the

737
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 4: bedroom I normally wouldn't have. I was drunk and I

738
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 4: got in my car and drove over seven children.

739
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 3: But I wouldn't have.

740
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 4: I was drunk and I beat someone with a baseil

741
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 4: bat and now they're dead. So no, that's not part

742
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 4: of loophole, and I don't think it should be.

743
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 2: That was as Didy's defense, right, like, hey, I was

744
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 2: doing a lot of drugs and you know, it.

745
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 3: Doesn't make it innocent of doing those things, right. But

746
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 3: I'm just wondering, like why this loophole even exists, Like

747
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 3: what the heck I'm listen, I'm trying to find out.

748
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 3: Do they hate us or is it just you know,

749
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 3: like they hate us?

750
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 2: Honestly, I think that again, not the soapbox, but here

751
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 2: I go. I think that cards are stacked against us worlds,

752
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: and I think it's okay. That's why we're talking about it.

753
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 2: That's how change happens thanks to summer, you know, like

754
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 2: it's you know again, even if it's unintentionally, we just.

755
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 3: Have to discuss it.

756
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,240
Speaker 2: And by the way the rules are, there are probably

757
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 2: very many that are against men.

758
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 3: So please show us eight eight three one crime. This

759
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 3: is not just like women rule.

760
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: No, that is not the intention whatsoever. But in this

761
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 2: particular case, it doesn't seem like the odds are in

762
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 2: the favor of a You know, I'm just a little

763
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: concerned that just based on where we are today after

764
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 2: the last two weeks of you know, Diddy and trials

765
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 2: and verdicts, that I think it's getting increasingly harder for

766
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 2: victims to come forward. Even Epstein, we were just talking

767
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: about a lot of victims came forward, they faced it,

768
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 2: they went to court, they took time off work, they

769
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 2: had to say terrible things, and now there's no client list.

770
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 3: We're getting gas lit. We get your getting gas. We're

771
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 3: going to continue the convo. If you missed any of

772
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 3: the show, catch it as a podcast. We'll be right back.

773
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 2: This is True Crime Tonight and we're talking true crime

774
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 2: all the time. Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio.

775
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 2: We're talking true crime all the time. We've been talking

776
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 2: a lot about Epstein. We would definitely want to hear

777
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: from you, so please jump in and join the convo

778
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 2: eight eight eight three one crime. You could also hit

779
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: us up on our socials at True Crime Tonight's show,

780
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 2: at True Crime Tonight's show on Instagram and TikTok, and

781
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 2: then at True Crime Tonight on Facebook. That's very loud

782
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 2: for my mom, and also you know, just call us,

783
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 2: or you could also do a talk back, which is

784
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 2: if you download the iHeart app on the right hand

785
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: corner and the top right, you just press this button

786
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 2: and suddenly you just leave us like a little voice

787
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,240
Speaker 2: memo and boom, you're on the show.

788
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 3: So we definitely want to hear from you. We listen.

789
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: There's a lot to unpack with Brian Coberger and his

790
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: potential association or at least the parallel to in cells,

791
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 2: and that's a topic that we're digging into, you know,

792
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 2: from today, tomorrow and probably from this point forward, because

793
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 2: now it's becoming increasingly more prevalent and important that we discuss.

794
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,479
Speaker 3: And you know, body, WHI should we go to? First?

795
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: We definitely want to talk about Manifesto's you know, it's

796
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 2: manifesto Mondays and Elliott Rogers and his sort of connection

797
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 2: to all things in cell. He's kind of the poster child,

798
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 2: if you will, of in cells. So will you share

799
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 2: a little bit more about what an in cell is

800
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 2: and this Elliott Rogers manifesto?

801
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, So an in cell you've we obviously we've been

802
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,879
Speaker 3: talking about it, but an in cell stands for involuntarily

803
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 3: celibate and the involuntarily is you know important here they

804
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 3: basically blame women for being celibate. There, that they're still virgins,

805
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 3: that they haven't been given the right amount of attention

806
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 3: from women for whatever reason they're social standing, maybe the

807
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 3: way they look, the way they talk, the way they walk,

808
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 3: any any number of reasons women are blamed for them

809
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 3: being celibate. Not all in cells. You know, some are

810
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 3: just very lonely and you know, have a community online

811
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 3: and where they can commiserate with other in cells and

812
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 3: you know, maybe feel better about themselves that they're not

813
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 3: alone in this world. However, some in cells, as we're seeing,

814
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 3: are becoming violent towards women. And you know, when you're

815
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 3: looking at Brian Coberger, I think it's pretty clear that

816
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 3: you know, while this wasn't a sexual assault, I do

817
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 3: think it was sexually motivated in a way. You know,

818
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 3: I do. There's allegedly, you know, Maddie was his target,

819
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 3: and you know he was very brutal with these victims.

820
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 3: Elliott Roger, he is a spree killer. And you know,

821
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 3: when you're looking at the classifications for killers, there's you know,

822
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 3: serial killers, mass murders and spree killers and Elliott Rogers

823
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 3: a spree killer because he killed many people at multiple locations.

824
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 3: You know, he killed his roommates at their home, and

825
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 3: then he also killed the sorority sisters at the sorority

826
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 3: house outside the sorority house there, and then a couple

827
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 3: of other people that were in the area. So he's

828
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 3: he's considered a spree killer. And then you have Brian Coburger, who,

829
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 3: by all intents and purposes, was a mass murderer because

830
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 3: he killed four or more people in one location. I

831
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 3: one hundred percent believe Brian Coburger would have evolved into

832
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 3: a serial killer. But we you know, luckily we don't know, Like,

833
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 3: thank god, we don't know, but I think that would

834
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 3: have happened. And then like Ted Bundy, Right, like obviously

835
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 3: Brian Coberger, he's in criminology, he you know, is going

836
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 3: to be looking for information on Ted Bundy. However, it

837
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 3: seemed like Brian was a little very interested in Ted Bundy.

838
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 3: He's even looking for Ted Bundy while he's on vacation,

839
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 3: you know, like this was more than just a criminal

840
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 3: criminology student looking at writing a paper. He was certain

841
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,359
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy absolutely hated women. So the one thing they

842
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 3: all have in common is their hatred for women, right,

843
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 3: and their resentment towards women, and you know, obviously the

844
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 3: violent acts they committed.

845
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 2: I was just going to ask you when the Brian

846
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 2: Coburger point, not to interrupt, but just curious what your

847
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 2: perspective is Brian Coberger obviously accused or now has pled

848
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 2: guilty to murdering, you know, for incredible students at the

849
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 2: University of Idaho. Inexcusable, you know, because he maybe was

850
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 2: considered unpopular or you know, had a bad taste in

851
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 2: his mouth when it came to women, wasn't getting a

852
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: lot of girlfriends, et cetera. Was kind of the weird

853
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 2: guy in the basement. That's the alleged, right. We don't

854
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 2: know for sure that he's an insel, which I know

855
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 2: a lot's been made about his fascination with Ted Bundy.

856
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 2: He was a criminology studying, you know, student, getting his

857
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 2: chances are if you looked at any of our Google searches,

858
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 2: you know we work in true crime, they're not great.

859
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 2: We're looking at very dark things all day. Does that

860
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 2: mean that we're fascinated by it or it's just a

861
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 2: research piece of the job. I think that I wonder

862
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: it was Bundy and Inceell in your opinion, No, Bundy had.

863
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 3: A girlfriend, Bunny had successful relationships with women. But it's

864
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 3: just it's just the violence against women part, you know

865
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 3: that I'm drawing from that makes some sense. Yeah, not

866
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 3: that I'm not I'm not saying Ted Bundy was an insult.

867
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 3: I'm just saying understood.

868
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, because also a body, weren't you mentioning? I believe

869
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 4: it was last night that Brian Coburger had a car

870
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 4: ride with someone. Yeah, and in that Yeah, while you're

871
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 4: pulling that up, it was Brian Colberger. He had a

872
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 4: car ride with someone, some kind of acquaintance, and throughout

873
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 4: that car ride, Brian Coberger, I believe, said I can

874
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 4: get any woman out there, something to that degree. Is

875
00:43:57,920 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 4: that correct?

876
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 3: Yeah? It was a Ben I think it was Ben Roberts.

877
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 3: Was it was he? He was in school with Brian

878
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 3: Coberger and they were in a car ride on the

879
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 3: way home and Coburger was, you know, lamenting that women,

880
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 3: you know, really kind of belong at home in the kitchen,

881
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 3: that whole kind of machismo and not in the classroom

882
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 3: and not in the classroom. Additionally, he said that he

883
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 3: could walk into any room and have any woman he

884
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 3: wanted sexually, like, those were the words he used in

885
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 3: the stoff.

886
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 4: Brian Coburger used, right, but which seems so probably talking.

887
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 2: We have reached out, you know, we make the documentary.

888
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: He was on our call list. I didn't even realize

889
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 2: that it was the same person, but I wasn't that. Yeah,

890
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 2: I think that means Brian Coburger was kind of talking big,

891
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 2: you know, and I think so still very small. Sometimes

892
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: you talk very big and with given the proper stage.

893
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 3: Because he also didn't really.

894
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 2: Like like allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly you know, the the

895
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: tough guys, the guys that get all the girls.

896
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 3: The chad track. Yeah, that's what in cells call so's.

897
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 3: There's chads and Stacy's, and chads are like the popular guys.

898
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 3: Stacy's are the popular girls, and they despise chads and so, yeah,

899
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 3: you're right, he's trying to pump himself up to be

900
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 3: more of a chad a little really not yeah, right.

901
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 2: Like he wants to feel like he's the big man

902
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 2: and you know, oh, you know, nothing to see here.

903
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,399
Speaker 2: Over Compensating, I guess is the word I'm looking for.

904
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is true Crime tonight on iHeart Radio. I'm

905
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,919
Speaker 4: Courtney Armstrong here with Buddy Moven and Stephanie Leideker. We're

906
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 4: talking about Brian Cobeger and Elliott Roger. We want to

907
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 4: hear what you think about that or anything we've spoken

908
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 4: about this evening. Give us a call at eighty eight

909
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 4: three one Crime. So, Boddy, just to reset a little

910
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 4: bit what you were speaking about with the chads and

911
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 4: the stacies. So, an incel and involuntary celibate is a

912
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 4: man who is involuntarily meaning is would like to have

913
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 4: sexual relations but is not having them. And then the

914
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 4: chads are the men who are what ever percentage the

915
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 4: in cells perceive of men who get all of the women.

916
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 4: And it's it's kind of this interesting dynamic from what

917
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 4: I understand having researched it of it's both an hate

918
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 4: and an envy.

919
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 3: Right, that's the scary part, the jealous her.

920
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, the perfect intersection, right, almost like Barbie and Ken right,

921
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: Like Courtney, I think you said that last night as

922
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 2: an emblematic example of like, oh, the girls that think

923
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 2: they look like a Barbie type.

924
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 3: Again, this is a stereotype, not reality.

925
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 2: That's enraging because they're the ones that you know, maybe

926
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 2: he wants to get and can't.

927
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 3: Right. So, and there's another comparison that I wanted to

928
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 3: kind of point out, and this is speculation alert. I

929
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 3: need like a sound speculation alerts? Can we get that?

930
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 2: It's like, let's what would the sound be like, I

931
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 2: don't know it like an alarm? Yeah, yeah, let's get

932
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 2: a speculation alert.

933
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 3: But I wanted to point out that, you know, it's

934
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 3: it's been speculated and what not that mad Mattiemogen was

935
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 3: Brian Coberger's target and know she it's also speculated that

936
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 3: she was the first one stabbed and murdered in Idaho,

937
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 3: and so it's been kind of speculated that Brian Coberger

938
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,839
Speaker 3: may have been kind of obsessed with her in a sense,

939
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 3: and we don't know what that looks like, but it

940
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 3: has been talked about quite a bit. Additionally, Elliott Roger

941
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,399
Speaker 3: was kind of obsessed with a Maddie. Did you guys know.

942
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 2: That you had mentioned this last night? I did not

943
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 2: know this, but the word maddie obviously, because we're so

944
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 2: close to the you know, Idaho massacre and the you know,

945
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: the tragedy there that seems like interesting at the bare minimum.

946
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 2: So was it against Mattie's as a general.

947
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's it's just an interesting coincidence. Elliott

948
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 3: Roger had a friend, I think it was like middle

949
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 3: school or high school, and that friend brought in this girl,

950
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 3: Maddie to their little circle. And unfortunately this friend of

951
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 3: his died, this guy friend. And when his friend died,

952
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 3: this Maddie girl turned her back on Elliott okay, because

953
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 3: apparently she was really friends with a guy who died.

954
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 3: Right well, Elliott Roger came to hate this Maddie and

955
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 3: he wrote about her in his manifesto like a lot,

956
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 3: and he was like, she's everything I hate about women.

957
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 3: She's popular, she's tall, she's beautiful, she's slender, she's you know,

958
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 3: I looked at her on Facebook, and I'm disgusted with

959
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 3: the men that she's with. Like, he really hated this

960
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 3: this Maddie person in his in his manifesto, And I

961
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 3: thought it was interesting that there's like this parallel, then

962
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 3: there's another one. There's another Listen, I'm going to plow

963
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 3: through these speculations in the search warrant. When Brian Coberger

964
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 3: was arrested, they searched the home of the parents, right,

965
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 3: and in the home there's you know, when there's a

966
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 3: search warrant and it's public like like we have with

967
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 3: this case. You basically have a list of items that

968
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 3: the police took from the home, you know, like shirt,

969
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 3: you know, sock, glove, you know, those kinds of things.

970
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,720
Speaker 3: In this list, it says that they found a book

971
00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 3: with passage underlined on page one eighteen. So today I

972
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 3: was like, let's go look because we were talking about,

973
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 3: you know, Elliott Roger, and I was like, let me

974
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 3: go look at page one eighteen at this manifesto. I

975
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 3: never have before. I never looked at it before, so

976
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 3: I did, and it's interesting. On page one eighteen it

977
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 3: says this, you guys, it came to a point where

978
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 3: I had to set a date for the day of retribution.

979
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 3: That is what Elliott Roger calls the day that he,

980
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 3: you know, went on his spree killing. It came to

981
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 3: a point where I had to set a date for

982
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 3: the day of retribution. I originally considered doing it on

983
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 3: the Halloween of twenty thirteen. That's when the entire town

984
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 3: erupts in Rausch's partying. There would literally be thousands of

985
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 3: people crowded together who I could kill with these and

986
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 3: the goal was to kill everyone, to utterly destroy that

987
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 3: wretched town. But then, after seeing footage of previous Halloween

988
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 3: events on YouTube, I saw that just too many cops

989
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 3: walking around it would be too risky. So the day

990
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 3: of retribution would have to be on a normal party weekend.

991
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 3: So I set it for some time during November of

992
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 3: twenty thirteen. Stop. Yeah, it's an interesting it's interesting, and

993
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 3: we know that that day was the last like football

994
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 3: game event or something like in Moscow. It was like

995
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 3: the last hurrah before break. Everyone's in town for this

996
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 3: big football game. It was a big night in Moscow.

997
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,959
Speaker 2: You are blowing my brains right now to peace and listen.

998
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 2: It could be just you know, listen, it could just

999
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 2: be a coincidence. But you know, one of the big

1000
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 2: outlandish or outstanding I should say, which is therefore outlandish

1001
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,760
Speaker 2: details about the Idaho massacre.

1002
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 3: Is why that day? Why why that morning? Oh we

1003
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:29,399
Speaker 3: have a talkback? Should we play the talk back?

1004
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 5: Yes?

1005
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 7: Pay true crime tonight. Do you think in cells are

1006
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 7: as dangerous of people as people make them out to be.

1007
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 7: They seem more likely that they're going to harm themselves

1008
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 7: than other people, all because they're lonely young men who

1009
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 7: can't seem to win with girls, make friends, and can't

1010
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:47,720
Speaker 7: find their place in the world.

1011
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 3: I mean, that's a good point, a really fair No,

1012
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 3: it is fair because not all, like I said saying earlier,

1013
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 3: not all in cells are violent. Some are just lonely

1014
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 3: people and it is sad for them. You know, they

1015
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 3: feel ostracized from, you know, the rest of the world.

1016
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 3: They're they're lonely, they're celibate, they have no companionship, and

1017
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 3: the only friends they have are those online that they've

1018
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 3: you know, formed in these communities. The problem is that

1019
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 3: those communities are fostering that feeling and it's pumping them

1020
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,399
Speaker 3: up and making them even more you know, the rihtic ors,

1021
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 3: making them more violent. So yeah, yeah, you're you know,

1022
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 3: you're of course, I think that we are probably making

1023
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 3: them out to be pretty bad, but that's definitely not

1024
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 3: the intention. The intention is just to bring awareness to

1025
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 3: the really small number of in cels who are taking

1026
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:35,959
Speaker 3: it a step further and harming women.

1027
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 2: It's a pretty violent ideology though to some of his sense,

1028
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 2: and also worth noting. You know, it's such a good perspective,

1029
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 2: and I'm so glad for that talk back, because look,

1030
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 2: maybe it's also true that you know, as women, we're

1031
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 2: able to be a little bit more emotional, We're able

1032
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 2: to express ourselves.

1033
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 3: You know, without judgement.

1034
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 2: That's like, you know, sort of like a chick thing, right,

1035
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 2: and you know, young boys or at least I'm just

1036
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,439
Speaker 2: this is a very broad stroke. Sometimes it's like tough

1037
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: en up, you know, like being a man, you know,

1038
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 2: don't show any emotion. So imagine you're feeling lonely. Let's

1039
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 2: add COVID to that equation. Let's feel isolated to that equation.

1040
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 2: And now you don't necessarily have the tools or the

1041
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:16,919
Speaker 2: skill set to be able to verbalize those feelings. So yeah,

1042
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 2: you could get sucked into the dark web pretty quickly.

1043
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 2: And guess what, on that little like forum, potentially there

1044
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 2: are some you know, scary people who are you know,

1045
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 2: kind of feeding off that as well, and air quotes

1046
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 2: grooming these young men to radicalize as well. It's undeniably

1047
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 2: a pretty radical group, absolutely.

1048
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 4: But the talkback, you know, thank you again for leaving that.

1049
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 4: You know, you make a really good point, and it

1050
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 4: is a lot the majority of people who identify as

1051
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 4: in cels, the majority will be nonviolent ultimately, and the

1052
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 4: absolute majority are deeply lonely. And part of what we're

1053
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,439
Speaker 4: talking about is to figure out how do you recognize

1054
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 4: if someone you love is an insult is becoming withdrawn.

1055
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 4: I was after we spoke about this last night, I

1056
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 4: started doing a little bit more research and watching some

1057
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,879
Speaker 4: different things and reading. And there was a young man

1058
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 4: who said, who identified as an inceell, who said, when

1059
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 4: I'm outside my house dealing with regular dealing with real people,

1060
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 4: that feels like I'm in a computer game. When I'm inside,

1061
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 4: I feel safer and I know who's there. So it's

1062
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 4: it's a really absolute.

1063
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 3: That I've heard that you that quite a bit, that

1064
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,359
Speaker 3: they feel like an NPC outside in the world, which

1065
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 3: is a non playing character in a video game term.

1066
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 3: Oh so if you hear in cells, we'll say NPC

1067
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 3: quite a bit, and along with like the red pill ideology,

1068
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 3: which of course is that they're the ones who are

1069
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 3: awake and we're the ones who are basically living in

1070
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 3: a dream, you know, So the NPC thing is something

1071
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 3: that you'll hear them say quite often. I have felt

1072
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 3: that way before in my life.

1073
00:53:56,360 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 4: I too, of course, I'm human, but the majority in

1074
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 4: years and that's your reality. By the way, red pilling.

1075
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 4: I learned last night after the show not too that

1076
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 4: I need to be a little more knowledgeable before I

1077
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 4: throw it around, because I did it.

1078
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 3: That happened.

1079
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 4: Okay. I admitted that I have not seen the matrix

1080
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 4: and I still haven't because last night I was watching

1081
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 4: in cel documentaries. But I walked in and said to

1082
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:23,439
Speaker 4: my husband, so, have you been red pilled? He said,

1083
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 4: good Lord, I hope not, and I said, no, it

1084
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 4: means you know the truth. And he's like, I don't

1085
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 4: think it's usually a very good truth that it indicates.

1086
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, it usually doesn't expose a very good truth, right.

1087
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 3: So I wanted to read part of the manifesto that

1088
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 3: mentions Maddie. You know, previously I had mentioned that Elliott

1089
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 3: Roger wrote about a Maddie in his manifesto and he

1090
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 3: you know, they were childhood friends, and he often lamented

1091
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 3: in his manifesto about how normal it was for you know,

1092
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 3: them to play together when they were little, and they

1093
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,879
Speaker 3: would ride bikes together, and they would take baths together

1094
00:54:57,920 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 3: when they were little because their families are friends and

1095
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 3: was prob but he said in his manifesto that it

1096
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,319
Speaker 3: was probably the only time he would ever see a

1097
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 3: woman naked. That was his own age, which is crazy

1098
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 3: to me. We just absorb that. So when he was

1099
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 3: a young boy and he had like a young girl

1100
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 3: friends like there were but they were family friends. Yeah, yeah,

1101
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 3: that makes sense.

1102
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 2: And he recalls that as like the closest he's been

1103
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 2: to like the opposite sex.

1104
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,959
Speaker 3: When they were little, like I'm thinking, you know, five

1105
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,359
Speaker 3: six years old, when they were little, And then he

1106
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 3: goes on to mention that, you know, later in life,

1107
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 3: his mother invited her family. They tried to rekindle this relationship,

1108
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 3: and she had just graduated from USC and he says,

1109
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 3: I call that the University of spoiled. I'm not going

1110
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 3: to say the word, but you can imagine I'm going

1111
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 3: to say the C word, and that before they came

1112
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 3: to the house, he had stalked her Facebook for a

1113
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 3: bit and this is what he wrote. I saw that

1114
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 3: she was the exact image of everything I hate in women.

1115
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 3: She was popular, spoiled USC girl who partied with her

1116
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 3: hot beautiful blas on here click of friends. All of

1117
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 3: them looked like absolute seaword, and my hatred for them

1118
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 3: grew from each picture I saw on her profile. They

1119
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 3: were the kind of beautiful, popular people who lived pleasurable

1120
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 3: lives and will look down on me as inferior scum,

1121
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 3: never accepting me as one of them.

1122
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 2: I mean, that sums it up right there. I guess

1123
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 2: that's the DNA of this, right, That's where the Brondy

1124
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 2: Holberger connection is. How interesting? I mean, look who social media?

1125
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: Man?

1126
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, I'm not to be annoying about this,

1127
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 2: but again, like it's such a a it's just a

1128
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 2: glance at someone's life and look suddenly it's kind of

1129
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,800
Speaker 2: the core of why people are developing relationships with people,

1130
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:43,760
Speaker 2: good and bad. In this case, it's just pure jealousy. Yeah, listen,

1131
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 2: this is true crime tonight. We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney

1132
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 2: Armstrong here with Body Movin and Stephanie Leidecker. We're talking

1133
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 2: about insults, We're talking about Brian Colberger, and we are

1134
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 2: talking about Jeffrey Epstein. And where is the list? Question Mark?

1135
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 2: Give us a call. Do you have the list?

1136
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 4: Were eighty eight three one crime? But listen, I don't

1137
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 4: play video games.

1138
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 3: Because I do I'm a game well, but I.

1139
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 4: Bring that up to say, I didn't know what you say,

1140
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 4: NPG NPC now years old, a non planning character. That's

1141
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 4: horrifying to think. And you both said you felt that

1142
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 4: way at certain moments. I certainly have at moments, but

1143
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 4: imagine that's your existence. And again, these men that I

1144
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 4: was watching these interviews with in cells, you know, they

1145
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 4: were just saying, I have no place. And these were everyone,

1146
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,240
Speaker 4: to my knowledge, was non violent, and there was it

1147
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 4: was a portrait of in cells, and they were saying,

1148
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 4: the rage inside my body. It has no place to go.

1149
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 4: Everyone else has this beautiful life. I have nothing. I mean,

1150
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 4: just the despair. It's it's just really it's a very

1151
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 4: rough stuff.

1152
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 3: If you notice one thing about in Cells that I've noticed,

1153
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 3: those that they always tend to go for the really,

1154
00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 3: you know, socially appropriate beautiful women, right, like the typical

1155
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 3: you know, let's just say, blonde hair, blue eyed, skinny woman. Right.

1156
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 3: They never look at average women. They are their rage

1157
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 3: is against beautiful women. It's very interesting, Well that I

1158
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 3: feel that way.

1159
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 4: I would hazard a guess that because that's also easier

1160
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 4: to look and say, oh, those you know, the beautiful blonde,

1161
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 4: the stereotype that you're talking about which all of us

1162
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 4: can picture. It's easier to target. My guess is just

1163
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 4: the pure loneliness that a lot of these guys wouldn't

1164
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 4: know how to speak to any woman.

1165
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 3: Well, if we're talking about Brian Coberger and we have been,

1166
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 3: we learned in the dateline leaks that you know, there

1167
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 3: was an interest, there was a woman interested in him,

1168
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 3: and he turned her down because he was too good

1169
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 3: for her.

1170
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess you're idealizing this, sir, because she's.

1171
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 3: Barbie type, right, And that's kind of what I was thinking, was,

1172
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 3: you know, he had an opportunity and with this this

1173
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 3: coworker basically his peer. She's not like the stereotypical what

1174
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 3: his idea of a woman is. And are all in cells? Men? Boys? No,

1175
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 3: there are cells, There are fem cells, and I you

1176
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 3: know what, I don't know a lot about them cells.

1177
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 3: But the in cell community was it started from a

1178
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 3: woman in Canada who was, you know, on dating websites

1179
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 3: not she was struggling trying to find people, and she

1180
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 3: was just looking for community, and she started talking about

1181
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 3: her loneliness and it became like overtook with men, and

1182
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 3: so it became an in cell movement. But there are

1183
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 3: fem cells. I don't know a lot about them, but

1184
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 3: I think it'd be interesting to look into it. I'd

1185
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 3: be so curious too.

1186
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 2: And also, you know, again I'm not a biology teacher,

1187
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 2: but I wonder if you're a guy and it's not

1188
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 2: highly promoted to be emotional, now you have emotions that

1189
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 2: are displaced and you don't know where to put them.

1190
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 2: Add some testosterone and hormones to a young man, like, yeah,

1191
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 2: the rage is real, and I don't know. I'd love

1192
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 2: to have like a therapist or somebody on at some

1193
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 2: point a better life. I would do like the warning

1194
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 2: signs and how we can like help, I would too, absolutely.

1195
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 4: And around next we have a little bit more good

1196
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 4: news in the true crime world. We're going to find

1197
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 4: out about Operation Drag and I, so stay tuned for that.

1198
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 4: We also have a missing woman to talk about and

1199
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 4: we want to hear from you. We're at eight eight

1200
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 4: eight three one Crime, True Crime Tonight.

1201
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 3: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight.

1202
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 2: We're kind of getting our minds blown a little bit

1203
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:37,280
Speaker 2: about this in cell conversation and doing a deep dive

1204
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 2: on that. And also we have some positive news in

1205
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 2: the land of true crime, some success stories. We're trying

1206
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 2: to kind of soften our palettes a little bit. I

1207
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 2: know it's been very dark news lately, and you know,

1208
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 2: we need a little levity or something positive.

1209
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 3: So first we have a talk back, though, let's go

1210
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 3: to that.

1211
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 6: I just want to say that Body, you absolutely just

1212
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,959
Speaker 6: blew my mind with that, Elliott Rogers, Ryan Coburger, page

1213
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 6: one to eighteen Discovery. I can't believe that you just

1214
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:05,959
Speaker 6: discovered that on your own today. I feel like it's

1215
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 6: just too weird to be a coincidence, honestly, and I

1216
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 6: feel like you just like cracked a huge part of

1217
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 6: this case and you need to like report it to

1218
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 6: the Moscow authorities.

1219
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 3: Like yes, then I agree.

1220
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:21,919
Speaker 2: I second that I know Courtney Third's that you see?

1221
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 2: You see Body is everybody's face. Renee forgot about me. Yeah,

1222
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 2: but this girl, she's just started listening and confused her voices,

1223
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 2: because let's be honest, we always just a giggle that

1224
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 2: this show should be called two Smart Girls, and then

1225
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 2: you have to decide who we're referring to.

1226
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 3: It's definitely not me. So I grew thank you. I mean,

1227
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 3: that's really sweet, but I think this is you know,

1228
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 3: obviously I was looking at it this morning and I

1229
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 3: was like, oh my god, I emailed you guys. But

1230
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 3: then I have to admit I did a search for it,

1231
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 3: and it's been it's been talked about before. So even

1232
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 3: though I discovered it like naturally and on my own

1233
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 3: or whatever, other people have been talking about it.

1234
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 2: So it's take the wind, take you a thank you

1235
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 2: art you both are and I think that was as

1236
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 2: lovely as it gets. It is a really interesting intersection.

1237
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 2: It's undeniable. Frankly, yeah, it is.

1238
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 3: It's I mean, it's I don't know if it's meaningful,

1239
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 3: but you know, when you start adding all these pieces together,

1240
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:20,439
Speaker 3: it it I think the totality of these circumstances means something, right.

1241
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 3: And listene, you know, these people that that do these

1242
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 3: crime solving like for real professional like cops and the

1243
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 3: FBI and behavior people, they already know all this stuff.

1244
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 3: You know, they have to they have to already know

1245
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 3: this stuff. Nobody needs to hear from me. But thank

1246
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:36,200
Speaker 3: you so much for the compliment. And let's, you know, let's.

1247
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 2: Let's just discuss also just to like, you know, add

1248
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 2: to that and add to that callback you're being a

1249
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 2: little humble. If you guys don't recall, body is the

1250
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 2: star of donef with Kats, the Netflix documentary Emmy Award

1251
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 2: winning on My Dad, and it's because she actually solved

1252
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 2: you know, she will never she look it, she's already

1253
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 2: shaken her head. No, okay, you can watch it for

1254
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 2: yourself and you decide how brilliant she is. But listen, Yes,

1255
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:04,200
Speaker 2: of course, authorities and scientists and detectives are on it,

1256
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 2: and they know so much and they're working so hard.

1257
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:09,160
Speaker 2: But sometimes it does take a second set of eyes, sure,

1258
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 2: or even just fresh eyes and really fresh, smart ones

1259
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:14,919
Speaker 2: who do it ethically. So don't take the compliment, take

1260
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 2: the win, and we agree.

1261
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1262
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:19,920
Speaker 4: Yes, and if you haven't seen it, watch Don't Have

1263
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:23,240
Speaker 4: with Cats. I'm so good you will have your mind

1264
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 4: actually blown.

1265
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 3: It is good. I can't. I don't know it. Just

1266
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 3: you know, you know me.

1267
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 5: I'm humble.

1268
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 3: You are the humblest cat in town. Pun intended. Yeah, well,

1269
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 3: thank you, thank you. It's not off with her.

1270
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 4: Here's here's a little bit of on Netflix. It is

1271
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 4: on Netflix. Guest, pardon me, Don't Have with Cats on Netflix.

1272
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 4: So other great things to keep her eye out for

1273
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 4: is Operation Dragon, ie and in this it was an

1274
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 4: operation led by the US Marshall Service and had twenty

1275
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:56,800
Speaker 4: agencies working on it. And this operation rescued sixty critically

1276
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 4: missing Florida children. Wow, this just happened a couple of

1277
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 4: weeks go, and these vulnerable children have been have been

1278
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 4: found they were at risk of crimes of violence or

1279
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 4: had other risk factors substance abuse, sexual exploitation, domestic violence,

1280
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:16,440
Speaker 4: crime exposure. I mean, just real children who needed to

1281
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 4: be taken out of the situations that they were in.

1282
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 4: Sixty six zero, that's right. Eight people have been arrested.

1283
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 4: These charges range from human trafficking, child endangement, drug possession,

1284
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 4: drug trafficking. But again, all these twenty agencies came together

1285
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 4: and seventeen boys and forty three girls were recovered. They

1286
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 4: ranged in age from nine to seventeen.

1287
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:42,440
Speaker 3: Nine years old.

1288
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you got to remember this is again hats

1289
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 2: off to law enforcement in this case. I mean, the

1290
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 2: coordination that's required to pull something at that level off

1291
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 2: is pretty astounding. And that's an an unimaginable number of

1292
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 2: young people. So again we use the word it's sex

1293
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:01,960
Speaker 2: trafficking pretty loosely.

1294
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 3: Listen, can you imagine sixty kids. Your kid is missing.

1295
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 2: They're about to get put into another system where you

1296
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 2: may never see them again, and that's the end of it.

1297
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:13,800
Speaker 2: There's no way home, there's no there's nowhere back.

1298
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 3: You know.

1299
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:18,280
Speaker 2: Oftentimes, and you know, listen, oftentimes they get yanked, whether

1300
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 2: that's from a Native American reservation where there's very you know,

1301
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 2: there's limited law enforcement, or just from somebody's backyard and

1302
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 2: they're you know, taken there. Sometimes their visuals are changed,

1303
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:33,760
Speaker 2: like their hair is cut and colored and like they

1304
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 2: don't necessarily look like the missing poster, if you will,

1305
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 2: and you get into the system and you get put

1306
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 2: to a different state and another all.

1307
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 3: Of a sudden anything like they did when they went missing,

1308
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 3: right exactly. Oh my gosh, we have to really get

1309
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:50,920
Speaker 3: up to speed on this like age progression, Like you know,

1310
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 3: this is how they would look. Now, that's right. I'd

1311
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:57,880
Speaker 3: love to dig into to find somebody. Sketch Cop. Sketch Cop.

1312
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:00,600
Speaker 3: I worked with him on the podcast with you Guys. Yeah,

1313
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:03,560
Speaker 3: he did get a catch Cop gets Catch Cop. He's great.

1314
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 3: He is so great.

1315
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 2: Actually, it's funny you should say that. I actually he

1316
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 2: just like popped up on one of my alerts. Yeah,

1317
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:11,840
Speaker 2: we should totally do that, and even somebody from this

1318
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 2: particular operation, you know, hats off to the many who

1319
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 2: put their own lives at risk to pull this off.

1320
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 2: Maybe there's somebody from that side of things, from law enforcement,

1321
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:25,200
Speaker 2: et cetera, who can kind of come in and teach

1322
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 2: us a little bit more about it and how to

1323
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 2: keep ourselves.

1324
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 3: And so I really I don't have kids, so I'm

1325
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 3: like really uneducated on you know, what it means to

1326
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:34,160
Speaker 3: be a parent and the things that you have to

1327
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 3: look out for these days. I can't imagine being But

1328
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 3: you were a kid, well, but you were a kid.

1329
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 3: I was a kid, Yeah, but I was a kid

1330
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 3: in the seventies though.

1331
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, but these children, they are really even Stephanie earlier

1332
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 4: you said and maybe parents are missing and perhaps in

1333
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:52,720
Speaker 4: some missing their children. Not so for most of these

1334
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:56,080
Speaker 4: sixty children who now have been rescued, because many of

1335
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 4: them have been in the foster care system. Maybe they've

1336
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 4: run a way, and a lot of them have been

1337
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 4: lured into really dangerous situations. They've been exploited, They've been

1338
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:09,240
Speaker 4: exchanged for food or clothing, these children, but they are

1339
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 4: not riskuing.

1340
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 3: I'm body move in and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong

1341
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 3: and Stephanie Leidecker, and we are right in the middle

1342
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 3: of all of today's top true crime headlines. Do you

1343
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 3: have a question or opinion, give us a call at

1344
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 3: eighty eight thirty one Crime, or tell us your thoughts

1345
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 3: on the talk back app. Stephanie, you're raising your hand.

1346
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 2: Like I'm raising my hand about sex trafficking because it's

1347
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 2: again another topic in a rabbit hole I want to

1348
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 2: continue to go to. It's really it's triggering. I know

1349
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:37,440
Speaker 2: it's too sad, but like I guess, because it's so sad.

1350
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 3: We kind of all want to look the other way.

1351
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 2: I just do you know what the number one spot

1352
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 2: in time an event is for sex trafficking?

1353
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:46,760
Speaker 3: No, the super Bowl? Yep, the Super Bowl.

1354
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:50,880
Speaker 2: And by the way, it's really high like the tech involved.

1355
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:53,760
Speaker 2: It's not just like some random guy who snatches a kid.

1356
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:55,880
Speaker 2: I mean sometimes that happens as well, but it's a

1357
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 2: really high stakes operation in one of the largest industries

1358
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 2: in the world financially speaking, and they target social media

1359
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 2: sex traffickers as an industry. Now, this is very highly

1360
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 2: coordinated at a very high level. Don't get me started

1361
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:12,200
Speaker 2: on this rabbit hole, but we did the documentary about it.

1362
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 2: But also there's we can't even scratch the surface these

1363
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 2: these there's tech that really does target social media and

1364
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 2: looks for young children who are in particularly precarious environments. Right,

1365
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:27,600
Speaker 2: maybe mom and dad gave them up, Maybe they're in

1366
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:29,680
Speaker 2: a foster care system that no one's going to come

1367
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:32,240
Speaker 2: looking too fast. Maybe they know that, you know, one

1368
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:35,280
Speaker 2: of them's on social media lamenting about how mom's an alcoholic,

1369
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:38,200
Speaker 2: are dad's doing drugs? Like, you know, like there's there's

1370
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 2: not big eyes necessarily on them as a family. So

1371
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:45,400
Speaker 2: therefore they're the perfect target. And they really are using

1372
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 2: social media as a scanning process. So it's not just

1373
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 2: like the weirdo neighbor. Not that that doesn't happen as well, unfortunately,

1374
01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 2: I'm sad to report, but it is a big, high

1375
01:08:55,080 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 2: stakes operation with many high level people involved.

1376
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 3: And I think the take away from like I'm just

1377
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 3: hearing that, the takeaway in my opinion is Mom's your

1378
01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:08,599
Speaker 3: children are beautiful. I'm sure they're great, but I do

1379
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:10,800
Speaker 3: not need to see them on Facebook. No, I do

1380
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 3: not need to see them on X. Please stop posting

1381
01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:16,679
Speaker 3: your kids because a lot of people don't understand social

1382
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:20,439
Speaker 3: media privacy settings, and so like their public their Facebook

1383
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 3: is wide open, right, anybody can go to their Facebook

1384
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:25,240
Speaker 3: and see all their pictures. It's not I actually do

1385
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:28,559
Speaker 3: that only and you know whatnot I listen, your kids

1386
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:32,000
Speaker 3: are adorable. I love seeing their back to school pictures.

1387
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:34,200
Speaker 3: Those are my favorite. I love seeing all the back

1388
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 3: to school pictures. But I promise you I don't need

1389
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 3: to see them. And if I can see them, predators

1390
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:39,680
Speaker 3: can see them.

1391
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 2: So can I tell you one more scary thing to

1392
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 2: add to that? You know, it's very common sometimes, you know,

1393
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:47,280
Speaker 2: pictures are posted of their little nuggets and their you know,

1394
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:49,439
Speaker 2: three year old little girls at the beach and they're

1395
01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:51,400
Speaker 2: just in their little bottoms and they're all covered in

1396
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:55,000
Speaker 2: sands or passed out in the back or a long day. Yeah,

1397
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 2: for a pedophile, they're looking at a naked target, right,

1398
01:09:59,120 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 2: which is real.

1399
01:10:00,360 --> 01:10:05,400
Speaker 4: It's just really disturbing. Not surveys, investigations. I'm losing the

1400
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:09,280
Speaker 4: word I'm looking for. But it profiled different kinds of

1401
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 4: Facebook groups and it was sort of young girls gymnastics

1402
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:17,559
Speaker 4: and young girls cheerleading. And statistically, you are far more

1403
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:22,520
Speaker 4: likely to be a man in your sort of forties fifties,

1404
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 4: that age lurking in those groups than you are to

1405
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 4: be someone trying to either get your child to the

1406
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:30,439
Speaker 4: next level or anything like that. So it is, it

1407
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:31,440
Speaker 4: can be dangerous.

1408
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:34,439
Speaker 2: We need the more good news topics. This was a downer, sorry,

1409
01:10:34,479 --> 01:10:36,360
Speaker 2: but I do think it's as important for us.

1410
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:40,120
Speaker 3: To note it. And it started out good. I took

1411
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 3: it down here.

1412
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:43,640
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, Well those sixty children, listen, they are

1413
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:48,080
Speaker 4: all in care right now, men, and yeah, so all

1414
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:48,639
Speaker 4: of them.

1415
01:10:48,479 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 3: Are, and they're all they were all unharmed. Is that

1416
01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:52,920
Speaker 3: do we know? I guess we probably don't know.

1417
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:55,160
Speaker 4: Probably don't know, And I'm sure if you're one of

1418
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:58,720
Speaker 4: the children who were being looked after, then no, it's

1419
01:10:58,800 --> 01:10:59,320
Speaker 4: probably not.

1420
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 2: Let's just soon crisis averted and job well done for

1421
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:05,879
Speaker 2: those who saved sixty children.

1422
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:08,479
Speaker 3: I mean, that's an astounding mellery. Courtney. You were saying

1423
01:11:08,479 --> 01:11:10,920
Speaker 3: that all these agencies work together. Do you know what

1424
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:13,479
Speaker 3: it takes to get agencies to communicate. I mean it's

1425
01:11:13,479 --> 01:11:14,160
Speaker 3: like pulling.

1426
01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:18,440
Speaker 2: Two towns to coordinate it, let alone agencies. Yeah, that's impressive,

1427
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 2: big impressive effort. And imagine how much you know stakeouts

1428
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:24,320
Speaker 2: and things had to happen prior, pretty astounding.

1429
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:27,080
Speaker 3: How do we get like a national task force for this,

1430
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 3: like or something like if.

1431
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:31,320
Speaker 2: We have as where people get to keep their lives

1432
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:33,799
Speaker 2: to making sure that this doesn't continue to happen. Courtney,

1433
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 2: You'll remember there was one I'm going to give this

1434
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 2: some thought. We should have this guy on. He was

1435
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 2: so interesting and brilliant and really it's like for free.

1436
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:45,679
Speaker 2: They do all these high stake operations to to really

1437
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:48,839
Speaker 2: catch the predators essentially, but it's not just a predator,

1438
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 2: it's a machine, and you.

1439
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:52,560
Speaker 3: Know it's also really dangerous.

1440
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:56,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, and listen, Missing Persons Monday, we have this, you know,

1441
01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:58,280
Speaker 2: very tragic story in New Mexico.

1442
01:11:58,360 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 3: Courtney, I know you've been following this close.

1443
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:04,600
Speaker 4: Yeah. Melissa Cassias. She's a New Mexico mother. She disappeared

1444
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 4: after taking lunch to her daughter. And this was a

1445
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 4: little over a week ago. This was yeah, Thursday, June

1446
01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 4: twenty six. It's very strange. She literally, she's an administrative

1447
01:12:15,080 --> 01:12:19,160
Speaker 4: assistant for a federal government in Los Alamos National Laboratory.

1448
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:23,080
Speaker 4: Drove to work that morning. She forgot her work badge.

1449
01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:25,519
Speaker 4: We've all done that, but she knew that for clearance,

1450
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:28,600
Speaker 4: decided to work from home. She later and this is

1451
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 4: the last time that it was confirmed she was seen.

1452
01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 4: I believe she took lunch to her daughter and left

1453
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:36,960
Speaker 4: the area at one o'clock, so we know that that happened.

1454
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:42,080
Speaker 4: But then when her daughter returned home, Melissa, her mother

1455
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:44,840
Speaker 4: was not there. Later, there was a tip that came

1456
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:48,759
Speaker 4: in someone allegedly saw her walking long foot on Highway

1457
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 4: five eighteen in Talpa, New Mexico, and was apparently seen

1458
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:57,280
Speaker 4: on a neighbor's ring doorbell on the camera. So so far,

1459
01:12:57,479 --> 01:13:01,000
Speaker 4: hundreds of volunteers and family members in law enforcement have

1460
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:03,680
Speaker 4: spent a long time searching for her. There is a

1461
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:09,280
Speaker 4: reward and the family is asking anyone to call five

1462
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:13,439
Speaker 4: oh five, four, two, five, six, seven seven to one

1463
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:15,920
Speaker 4: if they've seen her. So let's all be on the

1464
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 4: lookout for Melissica.

1465
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:21,880
Speaker 3: Cis And she works at Los Alamos. Yes, interesting, that's

1466
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 3: what they do. That's where they developed the A bomb.

1467
01:13:24,120 --> 01:13:27,520
Speaker 3: That's where like plutonium studies are done in like Oppenheimer,

1468
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:31,600
Speaker 3: it's all done at Los Alamos. That's a very famous laboratory.

1469
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:33,400
Speaker 3: Not not that has has anything to do with it.

1470
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:35,479
Speaker 3: It's just interesting. Well maybe it does I don't know.

1471
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:38,360
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know, but you know again, she she

1472
01:13:38,479 --> 01:13:40,479
Speaker 4: tried to go to work, didn't have her badge at

1473
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:43,000
Speaker 4: Los Alamos National Laboratory.

1474
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 3: And wow, yeah, you can't get in that place if

1475
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:46,679
Speaker 3: you don't have a badge. I mean that's like top

1476
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:49,360
Speaker 3: that's like Department of Energy stuff. They're very that's a

1477
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:54,160
Speaker 3: very very important laboratory for the country. Wow. Yeah, that

1478
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:56,720
Speaker 3: suddenly seems suspicious to me. I know, that's like the

1479
01:13:56,720 --> 01:13:58,640
Speaker 3: first thing I went to mind home, like Los Alamos.

1480
01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 3: What well, not that I listen, she's missing. She needs

1481
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:06,160
Speaker 3: to be found, yeah, bottom line course regardless. Oh my gosh,

1482
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:09,559
Speaker 3: that's interesting. So she just disappeared. Yeah, no trace of her.

1483
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:10,839
Speaker 3: No interesting.

1484
01:14:11,320 --> 01:14:14,000
Speaker 2: Please, I hope we can be helpful, like yeah, everybody

1485
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:15,080
Speaker 2: be on the lookout, is right.

1486
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:18,439
Speaker 3: So well, sorry, I didn't mean that.

1487
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:21,120
Speaker 2: I just know it's my brain just went to lots

1488
01:14:21,120 --> 01:14:23,719
Speaker 2: of different places. I'm not familiar with that place.

1489
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:26,080
Speaker 3: Oh you're not. No, I don't know how I'm not.

1490
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:28,639
Speaker 3: That's where the A bomb was developed, Like that's where

1491
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:32,240
Speaker 3: Oppenheimer did all his research and what right, right? Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1492
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:36,120
Speaker 3: Oppenheimer connection. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, they do

1493
01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:39,360
Speaker 3: like AI. They do a lot of AI stuff. Now, wow, and.

1494
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 4: Body, you're one hundred percent correct. You know, my friend Google,

1495
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:45,479
Speaker 4: it's one of the most highly secured facilities in the

1496
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:47,679
Speaker 4: US and possibly the world.

1497
01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:50,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, what this is like the this is like the

1498
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:54,280
Speaker 3: big time like secret installation, not secret because everybody knows

1499
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:56,120
Speaker 3: about it, but you know what I mean, Like, you

1500
01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:57,799
Speaker 3: cannot get in this place without a badge.

1501
01:14:57,840 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 2: So just to play that out again, she doesn't have

1502
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 2: her badge, She drops off food to her child, and

1503
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:07,880
Speaker 2: then boom, she's vanished, never to be seen. Yeah, hopefully

1504
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:09,280
Speaker 2: we can dig into that a little bit deeper.

1505
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:11,519
Speaker 3: Poor thing. I hope she I hope she's I hope

1506
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:13,720
Speaker 3: she's okay. I hope she's well. I don't know. My

1507
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:15,920
Speaker 3: brain's gone a mile a minute. But yeah, we'll play

1508
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:17,920
Speaker 3: in there.

1509
01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:19,360
Speaker 2: And yeah, we're gonna have to dig in further and listen.

1510
01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:21,720
Speaker 2: If you have any information, please call us to eight

1511
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:24,160
Speaker 2: eight eight three one crime. You could also catch us

1512
01:15:24,160 --> 01:15:27,360
Speaker 2: on our socials at True Crime Tonight's show, or at

1513
01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:30,680
Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight on Facebook and listen the night has

1514
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:32,439
Speaker 2: Come and Gone. If you've missed any of the show,

1515
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 2: catch us right after as a podcast on iHeartRadio and

1516
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:38,200
Speaker 2: we will be back tomorrow. More on this to come,

1517
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:40,679
Speaker 2: and yeah, thank you for the great night. Everybody, please

1518
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 2: stay safe.