1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,159 Speaker 1: Welcome to Backwoods University, a place where we focus on wildlife, 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: wild places and the people who dedicate their lives to 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: conserving both. Big shout out to Onyx Hunt for their support. 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Lake Pickle. On this episode, we're focusing 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: in on the Star of September, the object of desire 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: for most hunters in North America, and the mammal with 7 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: arguably the most recognizable mating call out there. We're talking 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: about Elk, but not so much where they are right now. 9 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: That's too easy. We're talking about where they've been. I 10 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: remember the whole thing vividly. Every step that Elk made 11 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: come in my direction, filling the tension increase on my 12 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: bowstring as I tried to perfectly time my draw so 13 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: that he wouldn't see me, the bugle that he sounded 14 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 1: when he was just twenty two steps away. I can 15 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: replay all of it. It's like it lives on some 16 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: sort of greatest Memories highlights that just stays inside my brain. 17 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: Any hunter will tell you that while all hunts are 18 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: special in their own right, there's just some that stick 19 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: out more than others. In May of twenty seventeen, I 20 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: was told I was gonna get my first chance at 21 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: an archery bull elk, and I promise you I'm not 22 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: indulging the story when I say that I'm surprised I 23 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: didn't have to restring my bow because I practiced so much. 24 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: From that day forward up until the first week of September, 25 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: when I hit the interstate and headed west. Every morning 26 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: and every evening I was shooting. I was practicing at 27 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: further distances than before. I was shooting more arrows per 28 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: session than I normally did. I would even go as 29 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: far as running laps to get my heart rate up 30 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: so I could really get some practice shooting while my 31 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: heart was pumping. I was doing everything that I could 32 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: think of to get ready. I remember that first morning, myself, Will, Jordan, 33 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: and Troy hiking up the mountain the star at the hunt. 34 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: At dawn, the first sound of a piercing bugle hit 35 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: my ears and it fell on me like some sort 36 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: of dark cloud. It was a nerves butterflies in your 37 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: stomach type of feeling or downright anxiety that I had 38 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: never felt around a hunt before. Could I really do this? 39 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: Could I make the shot when it counted? Could I 40 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: hold it together when there was a one thousand pound 41 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: animal standing bow range from me when the biggest thing 42 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: I had ever hunted prior to was a white tail. 43 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: Could I do it? I mean, really, could I actually 44 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: do it? I didn't know. Days one, two, and three 45 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: of the hunt went by without me getting an answer 46 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: to that question. There was plenty of hiking, plenty of 47 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: hearing elk, seeing elk, and one really close call that 48 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: didn't quite pan out, And I remember the entire time 49 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: I was at a war inside my own mind, telling 50 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: myself constantly to quit worrying, that I had done the 51 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: work necessary to be ready for this and I needed 52 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: to enjoy it. But still the nerves persisted, and I'm 53 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: most sure that as much as I tried to hide it, 54 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: the nerves that I was dealing with was becoming fairly 55 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: evident to the group. I still remember Will saying to 56 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: me several times, stay calm, wait for the right shot, 57 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: and when it presents itself, slam Duncan you can do it? 58 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: I know you can. The morning of day four, we 59 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: glassed a small herd early about twenty to thirty head 60 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 1: of elk, mostly cows, with one big herd bull and 61 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: five to six satellites. We stayed with them, and we 62 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: watched them head up the northwest side of a mountain, 63 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: presumably to bed down. With the west northwest winds that 64 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: we had that day, we hatched the plans to circle 65 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: around the east side of the mountain and close in 66 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: slowly where we thought they would be betted. It took 67 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: us about an hour and twenty minutes of crawling through 68 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: live rocks and dense timber before getting to our intended spot. 69 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: The moment it truly started to get real is when 70 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: we crested a small rise and the wind that was 71 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: blowing in our face brought along with it the strong 72 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: scent of elk and rut. To my fellow elk hunters 73 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: out there that have smelled this before, you know exactly 74 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. Will quickly signaled for myself and 75 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: Jordan to creep forward as far as we thought we 76 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: could get and find a good setup. We slipped about 77 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: sixty more yards ahead before a deafening bugle let us 78 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: know that for one we were in the right spot 79 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: and two in no need of getting any closer. Will 80 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: dropped back about seventy five yards and began to call, 81 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: and chaos ensued almost immediately several bulls began bugling back, 82 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: cows began to mew. We heard twigs snapping, and through 83 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: the thick timber and shadows, we started to pick up movement. 84 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: The elk were responding so rapidly it's as if they 85 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: were wondering how these other elk that they were now 86 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: hearing managed to get so close to them without them knowing. 87 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: In a matter of minutes, I caught a confirmed glimpse 88 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: of antlers coming our way. As the seconds went on, 89 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: the glimpses became more frequent, until I finally got a 90 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: good look a young satellite bull walking in our direction. 91 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: And to be fully clear here, neither the young nor 92 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: the satellite attributes about this bull phazed me. I had 93 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: full intentions on shooting him. I drew my bow, and 94 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: although he closed in to ten yards, he stayed behind 95 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: a blown down tree top the entire time no shock. 96 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: After a few seconds of standing there at that close 97 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: of distance, you could see the bulls start to piece 98 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: together that something wasn't right. He threw his head back, 99 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: wheeled around, and began trotting back towards his group, and 100 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: my hopes began to melt. I remember thinking to myself. 101 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: He's about to spook the entire herd running back into 102 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: them like that. Thankfully, Will and all his experience saw 103 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: this happening and bugled right as the young bull was 104 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: running back, and immediately he was answered. This time it 105 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: wasn't a satellite, it was the herd bull. Will timed 106 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: his bugle so perfectly that he painted the picture that 107 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: the young bull was being run off by a new 108 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: bull down below. I saw him almost immediately, not glimpses, 109 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: not bits and pieces. I saw him. It's almost like 110 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: he wanted to be seen. He was fifty yards enclosing. 111 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,239 Speaker 1: I remember watching his head tilted back as he marched 112 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: through the trees, the sun and shadows dancing off his 113 00:05:54,720 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: antlers with every step. As he closed into thirty five 114 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: yards on a steady march, his head went behind the 115 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: trunk of a large tree. I drew my bow and anchored. 116 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: Just a few more steps, that's all I needed, and 117 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: he would be broadside at top pen range. I had 118 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: a mouth call in and I was ready to stop him, 119 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: but there was no need. He stopped on his own, 120 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: perfectly broadside at twenty two yards and bugled. It was 121 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: like it was meant to be got. I remember looking 122 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: through my side at my pen saying to myself, there's 123 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: your shot. Smoked. I smoked it. 124 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: I smoked. 125 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: In a blink, it was over. The next thing I 126 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: saw was white fletchings burying themselves a double lung shot. 127 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: I had done it. I couldn't believe it. I had 128 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: actually done it. Will came up and hugged me. Jordan 129 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: and Troy high fived me, and we followed the sixty 130 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: yard blood trail and recovered my first archery bowl. In 131 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: that moment, It's like all the nerves, butterflies, and anxiety 132 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: that I had been dealing with was flipped around and 133 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: compounded into the most surreal gratitude and satisfaction that I 134 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: had ever experienced in my hunting life. Archery l hunting 135 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: the ultimate as far as I was concerned, and it 136 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: had fully lived up to the hype. And I just 137 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: couldn't believe that I was standing there getting to experience 138 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: it like this. I'm not lost for words unless I 139 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: don't know what to say. 140 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 3: Man, holy smokes. 141 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: But now, as always, let's zoom out on all this. 142 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: Why am I telling you this story in the first place? 143 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: Why do I think it's important that you hear about 144 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: my first archery elk. When you think of elk hunting, 145 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: what do you think of? For me growing up, it 146 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: meant Primos's truth about hunting elk videos, the mantra of 147 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: go west, young man, because of course you had to 148 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: go west to hunt elk, right. I mean? There are 149 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: Western big game species, arguably the most iconic Western game species. 150 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: Everyone knows that, But has it always been that way? 151 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: You've probably heard of the Rocky Mountain elk. Heck, you're 152 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: probably familiar with the Roosevelt elk, but have you ever 153 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: heard of the Eastern elk? To sharpen all of us 154 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: up on this subject, let's dive into some quick history, 155 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: because while elk are, without a question of predominantly Western 156 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: species today, I'm going to answer my own question in 157 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: saying it's not always been that way. The following are 158 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: excerpts regarding the presence of Eastern elk in different states 159 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: throughout the country from a published paper titled Muri nineteen 160 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: fifty one. Elk of North America. In Arkansas, there is 161 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: one record to the effect that in eighteen thirty four, 162 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: herds of buffalo and elk still roamed in the northeastern 163 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: region near the Missouri boundary east of the Black River, 164 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,439 Speaker 1: and it's reasonable to suppose that the elk originally had 165 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 1: a wider distribution in the state, but available literature does 166 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: not show it and lose Siana. A man named doctor 167 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: Milton Dunn wrote a letter documenting elk in the state 168 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: in eighteen twenty nine, and there's also a recorded killing 169 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: of a bull elk with a gross weight of seven 170 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: hundred and four pounds near Madison Parish on Walnut Bayou 171 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: in December of eighteen forty two. In the early days 172 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: of Illinois, elk reigns throughout the entire state, where the 173 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: prairies were preeminently their home, but they disappeared relatively quickly. 174 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: An explored named Micheau recorded one being killed by his 175 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: guide in seventeen ninety five in Sack County, Iowa. All 176 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: of the earliest settlers united in saying that elk were plentiful, 177 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: they were found from solitary individuals up to five hundred 178 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: and a herd, and they were known to be an 179 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 1: important food source, and that elkhorns were recorded being picked 180 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: up by the wagon load. In eighteen fifty six in Michigan. 181 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: In the early parts of the nineteenth century, elk were 182 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: common in parts of the Lower Peninsula. In Kentucky, elk 183 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: were abundant and were used as food by travelers. We 184 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 1: know this through famed stories like Dangle Boons encountering vast 185 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: herds of elk and bison. We also know of other 186 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: early explorers, such as John Strader, James Jaeger, and Colonel 187 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: Thomas Walker that documented great numbers of elk in Kentucky 188 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: as well. And this is just listing off a few 189 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: of the states in the East where there's record of 190 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: eastern elk. I think it's evident there's a bigger story here, 191 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: one that goes mostly unknown. And although I feel like 192 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: we've been here before, because this feels much like the 193 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: bison episode, I'm led to ask what happened. I mean, 194 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: I don't know about y'all, but personally, I think it'd 195 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: be pretty sweet if I could call in a bugling 196 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: bull in my home state of Mississippi. I mean, a 197 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: guy can dream, right, But more importantly, let's get some answers. 198 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: Jim Heffelfinger is no stranger to the Meat Eater Network. 199 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: He's also a bona fide servant nut or at least 200 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: that's what his Instagram handle would lead me to believe, 201 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: as well as being the wildlife science coordinator for the 202 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: Arizona Game and Fish Department. When I was scouring the 203 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: earth for a source on eastern Elk, it became evident 204 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: very quickly that Jim Heffelfinger was the man to talk to. 205 00:10:57,559 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: Here's Jim. 206 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 3: There's less known about some of these iconic species in 207 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 3: the East because they disappeared so fast. The settlement started 208 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 3: east to west like a slow burn across the continent, 209 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: and you saw the disappearance of these animals that were 210 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 3: we think are charismatic because they are, but the bottom 211 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 3: lines is they were filled with meat and wrapped in leather, 212 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 3: and the early early people, early Europeans that came to 213 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 3: the continent needed. 214 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 2: All that stuff. They were natural resources for them. 215 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 3: So they disappeared pretty quickly in the East before scientists 216 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 3: got cranked up and naturalists started describing things and writing 217 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 3: things down. So that's why we know very little about 218 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 3: some of these that disappeared early. The map that I 219 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 3: sent you just showed that disappearance of elk really from 220 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 3: the east to the west, and the original the original 221 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 3: distribution of eastern elk. Strangely enough, it seemed like it 222 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 3: didn't cover the entire continent. It seemed to not go 223 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 3: out to the eastern seaboard all the way, which is unusual, 224 00:11:58,040 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 3: and it doesn't go all the way down to the 225 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 3: Gulf coast all the weather's probably the southern half of Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia, Alabama. 226 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 3: There really isn't good records of elk in those historic times. 227 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 3: If you go back to some of the fossil record 228 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 3: a couple thousands of years ago, you'll find some elk there, 229 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 3: but strangely enough, not at the time that people were 230 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 3: starting to record things along the coast there. 231 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I noticed that. I mean, obviously, me being 232 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: from Mississippi, I keyed end on that state. And while 233 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: some of it is shaded the color for the eastern 234 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: elk range, it says no record of elk. 235 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, some of those southeastern states have no records 236 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 3: of elk, and some of them have just a few 237 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 3: in there, and so it doesn't seem like they came 238 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 3: down into Florida, Like, no records in Florida. Down into 239 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 3: Florida in historic times, there's a lot of old deer 240 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 3: fossils in Florida from the place of scene, and that 241 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 3: evolutionary history is an interesting one. But along the Gulf Coast, 242 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,839 Speaker 3: along the eastern seaboard, they seem to have been in there. 243 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is interesting because I thought, you know, when 244 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: I was doing, you know, a look into bison in 245 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: the eastern United States, there's a record of bison all 246 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: the way into northern Florida, so I would have thought 247 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: there would have been some elk in there too, But 248 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 1: there's no fossil record for it, at least. 249 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 3: And that's all we can say too, is that that 250 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 3: we don't have evidence of it doesn't mean they weren't there. 251 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 3: Although a lot of these a lot of these fossil sites, 252 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 3: we have a lot of fossils of all these other 253 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 3: for example, grassland species, and so when you get one 254 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 3: that's missing, that's that it's a little stronger evidence that 255 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 3: maybe it wasn't there. We would we would be picking 256 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 3: up some fragments in there. But elk in the east 257 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 3: certainly coexisted in some of those open grasslands and certainly 258 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 3: in the central Great Plains with bison. And we're largely 259 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 3: a grassland and mountain species early on, and people people 260 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 3: sometimes say, well, the early elkward grassland species and then 261 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 3: they shifted to a mountain species. 262 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 2: But I think they were. 263 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: Just at such broad ecological adaptability that they were in 264 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 3: the mountains and they were in the grassland. And then 265 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 3: when we took over basically the grasslands with our domestic 266 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 3: grazers and our development and over exploitation before we had 267 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 3: the conservation system we have now, they disappeared from those open, 268 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 3: vulnerable areas. And then they existed in some of the 269 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 3: areas with more security cover. And some of that was 270 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 3: the west and the Rocky Mountains. Some of it you'll see, 271 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 3: like one of the latest Eastern elk that was ever killed, 272 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 3: I think was in Pennsylvania, and so there was other 273 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 3: big blocks of forest that also provided that kind of 274 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 3: security cover that allowed those Eastern elk to hold out 275 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 3: the longest in some of those areas. 276 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: Okay, so we're getting a whole lot of good information here, 277 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: a better understanding of where these Eastern elk were, a 278 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: better understanding of when they started to quote disappear. The 279 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: fact that they didn't quite reach the eastern coastline, or 280 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: the fact that we don't have much or any record 281 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: of them in several Southeastern states like Mississippi or Alabama, 282 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: some of the habitats the eastern elk inhabited. But before 283 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: we get ahead of ourselves, I feel like there's a 284 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: very important question that we need to answer early. What 285 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: exactly is an eastern elk? Is it a subspecies? Is 286 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: it different than a rocky mountain elk? Is there any 287 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: difference at all. 288 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 3: That's a good question because many people they start talking 289 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 3: about eastern elk as if they were a well defined 290 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 3: scientific thing, like a subspecies, Like you could go somewhere 291 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 3: in a book and find the physical characteristics of an 292 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 3: eastern elk and how it differed from other elk or 293 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 3: even more recently genetic differences. But the fact is, one 294 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 3: hundred years ago people took a box of crayolas and 295 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 3: started drawing color polygons on a big map and started 296 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 3: labeling these Eastern elk, rocky mountain elk, manitoban elk, and 297 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 3: coloring them differently, and then even describing them in scientific 298 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 3: papers one hundred years ago saying this one's darker, this 299 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 3: one's a little smaller, And in reality they had one 300 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 3: individual or two individual skins and skulls and museum. They 301 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 3: took a few measurements and they said, you know, this 302 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 3: is bigger, this is smaller. And that's what's happened with 303 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 3: most of our elk subspecies, and most of the subspecies 304 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 3: of a lot of things. They're thirty eight white tailed 305 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 3: deer subspecies in North and South America. Those certainly are 306 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 3: not valid subspecies. And so what we had was we 307 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 3: had if you go back a little further in the 308 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 3: Pliss scene, towards the end of the place the scene, 309 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 3: there was not the last glacial maximum, which was Wisconsin, 310 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 3: but before that was called the Illinois Glacial Maximum, and 311 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 3: that glacier, that glacial period, that ice age, drew up 312 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 3: and froze up a lot of the seawater and opened 313 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 3: up the Bearing Strait that people talk about a lot. 314 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 3: So we had elk coming over for the first time 315 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 3: in North America in the late Pliso scene, probably a 316 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 3: little more than one hundred thousand years ago, and that 317 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 3: was the first time we had elk in North America. 318 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 3: And then that Illinois Glacial period went away and melted 319 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 3: and we got into what they called the Sangamoni and Interglacial, 320 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 3: which is the interglacial between the Illinois and the latest 321 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 3: Wisconsin one. That interglacial period where it warmed up, freed 322 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: up the central part of the continent and allowed those 323 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 3: elk to flow the rest of the way in. And incidentally, 324 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 3: that's when the first primitive bison bison prisseus, came with 325 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 3: elk at the same time and poured into what became 326 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 3: the grasslands in North America. And that primitive elk then 327 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 3: turned into bison latifrons, the big longhort, long horned bison. 328 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 3: Then that turned into bison, bison, the recent bison. So 329 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 3: elk and bison have that evolutionary kind of North American 330 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 3: invasion history at the same time and occupied a lot 331 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 3: of those same areas in North America. So those elk 332 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 3: came in, they filled North America. They came almost to 333 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 3: the eastern seaboard, like we were talking about, and they 334 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 3: really weren't different. They just came in as one elk 335 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 3: and occupied that whole continent. And so when we talk 336 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 3: about eastern elk, and then we talk about the center 337 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 3: part of the continent, they call Manitoban elk, which is 338 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 3: the Great Plains, and then the Rocky Mountain elk which 339 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 3: are in the Rocky Mountains. 340 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 2: Those really probably were not any different. 341 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 3: And when people have looked genetically at a few Eastern 342 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 3: elk specimens, and whenever they look at Manitoban versus Rocky Mountain, 343 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 3: they don't find any difference. So most of the elk 344 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 3: in North America were really just elk, and we shouldn't 345 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 3: get hung up on these subspecies. Now, modern genetics shows 346 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 3: a difference between the roosevelts which are in the Pacific Northwest, 347 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 3: and the Tuleialk, which are smaller antlers are a little 348 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 3: different in central California. There's some genetic differences there, but 349 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 3: those genetic differences are probably from the last couple hundred 350 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 3: years of just their ranges retracting into isolated pockets and 351 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 3: then evolving a little bit differently in small populations like 352 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 3: the tule elk. Almost when extinct, there was just a 353 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 3: handful of tule elk in California, and then they've come back, 354 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 3: and so there's a real genetic bottleneck there, and any 355 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 3: genetic differences may stem just from that genetic bottlenecking, But 356 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 3: I wouldn't we certainly shouldn't get hung up about Eastern 357 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,479 Speaker 3: versus manitobin versus Rocky Mountain elk. They're really mostly our 358 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 3: labels that we've just put. 359 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: On them, So Rocky Mountain elk, manitoban elk, Eastern elk 360 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: mostly just labels that we made up for the most part. 361 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 1: To quote Jim directly, elk or just elk, which leads 362 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: me to more questions. Because we see variances in body size, 363 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: we see variances in antler size. If elk or just elk, 364 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: would that mean that what we're seeing is more of 365 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: a response to living in different habitats and climates rather 366 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: than it being new to speciation right. 367 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 3: Right, those are referred to just as ecotypes. So there 368 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 3: are in certain areas animals that live in a forest 369 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 3: versus grassland are going to start looking differently as they 370 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,959 Speaker 3: adapt to those local environments. So if you look at 371 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 3: the eastern elk was first described by a naturis the 372 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 3: first described for science, not the first time someone mentioned 373 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 3: in elk, but first described for science in seventeen seventy seven, 374 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 3: and that was described based on a painting that someone did, 375 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 3: John James Audubon, who the Audubon Society was namesake. So 376 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 3: John James Audubon painted a painting of elk, and the 377 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,959 Speaker 3: elk used were in eastern United States, so they were 378 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 3: eastern elk that he painted. 379 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: All right, this is both a very important and highly 380 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: fascinating piece of this story, So lean in you all ready. 381 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: In seventeen seventy seven, an early naturalist by the name 382 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: of Exer Lebine was the first person to describe elk 383 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: for scientific purposes. Seventy years later, John James Ottobon does 384 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: a painting of eastern elk, and then in nineteen thirty five, 385 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: a man named Vernon Bailey uses Oudobon's painting to scientifically 386 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 1: describe this subspecies known as the eastern elk. To contextualize 387 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: that a bit, imagine that you're told that you have 388 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 1: to go and paint the next whitetail buck that you 389 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: get on your trail camera, and then a scientist is 390 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: going to be using your artistic expression to sign typically 391 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: describe animals. I don't know about y'all, but the natural 392 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: resource in science world is mighty lucky they didn't get 393 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: stuck with me doing paintings for references in the eighteen hundreds. 394 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: That'd been some bad descriptions. I'm just saying basing a 395 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: scientific description off of someone's painting as wild. 396 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 3: You know, so when you think about someone describing as 397 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 3: subspecies and describing what color it is and basing it 398 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 3: on whatever color brown John James Audubon dipped his paintbrush into, 399 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 3: that's not really what we call science and good subspecies. 400 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 3: And in fact, they saw that that original painting was 401 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 3: in a book called Quadrupeds of North America John James Audubon, 402 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 3: until out of curiosity I had, of course, I had 403 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 3: to go see this painting that John James Audubon did 404 00:21:58,160 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 3: of Eastern Elk. 405 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, honestly, it is a pretty good 406 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: painting as far. 407 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 3: As yeah, not to take anything away from John's painting 408 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 3: for sure. 409 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: As far as scientific accuracy though you could see like 410 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: there's so much room for flaw though, as far as like, 411 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: here's how we're going to biologically describe this species is 412 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: based off this dude's artistic interpretation. 413 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, right. 414 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 3: And people have gone back and they looked at museum specimens, 415 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 3: they've measured a few skulls here and there, and they've 416 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 3: looked at skins, and so you'll see things in the 417 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 3: literature about this one's browner this one's redder, this one's bigger, 418 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 3: and they're not done with large sample sizes like we 419 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 3: know today you really have to do to capture any 420 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 3: kind of regional or subspecific variation in an animal. 421 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: Okay, so we all have a better understanding of the 422 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: Eastern elk, their distribution, which was fairly vast, as far 423 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: south as Louisiana, as far north as Minnesota, and as 424 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: far east as New York. Wild right, we understand that 425 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: though they had their own name, that from what we 426 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: can understand, they weren't that much different, if any, from 427 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: the Rocky Mountain elk today. But now it's time to 428 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: get down to the more important part of this story. 429 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: What happened to them? Where did they go? We need answers. 430 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, it definitely it was over exploitation, just like white 431 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 3: tail deer. You think you would never be able to 432 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 3: wipe white tail deer out of large areas, but we 433 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 3: certainly did. When people are on the landscape and they 434 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 3: needed meat and they needed leather, they just took from 435 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 3: the local forests and once we had enough firearms in 436 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 3: the woods, that exploitation was too great for them to 437 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 3: keep up. And the same thing happened with elk. We 438 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 3: just don't hear about it as much because the bison 439 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 3: killing in the open plains was much more of a concerted, 440 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 3: focused effort in a shorter period of time, whereas the 441 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 3: disappearance of elk was just an exploitation rate that was 442 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 3: higher than the reproductive rate over a long period of time. 443 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 3: Kind of coming from the east to the west, wasn't 444 00:23:55,240 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 3: such a focused acute bison killing. You didn't have people 445 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 3: that we called elk hunters like our bison hunters out there, 446 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 3: and so it happened slower, and it happened on a 447 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 3: more local landscape throughout that whole eastern United States. 448 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 2: But there's no doubt it was exploitation. 449 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 3: And once we started introducing some laws in late seventeen 450 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 3: hundreds early eighteen hundreds to protect the wildlife that were there, 451 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 3: most of the elk were gone in all of those 452 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 3: areas by then. 453 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 2: By eighteen eighties or so. 454 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: According to historical accounts, when European settlers moved in, elk 455 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: didn't hide, but rather continued to roam where they always had, 456 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: Similarly to how many records reflect bison behaved towards the 457 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: early arrival of settlers foraging near settlements during the winter 458 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 1: months is one particular example of how they made themselves 459 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: out to be an easy target, and from the meet 460 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: and hide that they offered a very enticing target. And 461 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: to be fair, if you're an early European settler that 462 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: needs meet and hide for necessities, it's hard to toss blame. However, 463 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: there are some res records of the killing of elk 464 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: happening in grave excess, in quotes from men like Ernest 465 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: Thomas Setton, who said, there are a few stories of 466 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: bloodlust more disgusting than that detailing the slaughter of the 467 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: great elk bands. And look, I'm not here to villainize anyone. 468 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: That's not what this show's about, and it rarely ever 469 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: yields a positive result. Is there enough historical record to 470 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: show some of the Eastern elk killings happened purely based 471 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: off sustenance? Yes. Is there enough historical record to show 472 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: that some of the Eastern elk killings were blatantly over exploitive. Yes, 473 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: But regardless of what the intentions were, it does not 474 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: change the result. It's a deeply complex issue. I'm fascinated 475 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: by the relationship that humans have with their wildlife and 476 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: While it's clear that we are pretty much fully to 477 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: blame for the extra pation of Eastern Elk, we are 478 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: also to be accredited for the restoration efforts moving forward. 479 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: It's easy to look at our track record sometimes and 480 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: focus solely on the negatives, But where would that even 481 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: get us. Much of the wildlife and wildlife habitat destruction 482 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: happen in the eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds, and 483 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: people then don't have the gift of hindsight that we 484 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: have now. So I think it's more important to look 485 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: at what we have done since and what we can 486 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: do going forward. Theodore Roosevelt a man who's known for 487 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: many things, one of the most notable being the most 488 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: conservation minded president that this country has ever seen. During 489 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: his presidency, Old Teddy Roosevelt protected approximately two hundred and 490 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: thirty million acres of public land. What does this have 491 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: to do with the Eastern Elk, you ask, Well, let's 492 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: find out. 493 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 3: Once we started protecting them, and then eventually, and it 494 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 3: wouldn't take too long before restoration efforts started. Nineteen thirteen 495 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 3: was a big year. A lot of states translocated elk, 496 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 3: mostly from Yellowstone National Park in nineteen thirteen, and so 497 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 3: that started. That was the year Arizona started, the year 498 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,239 Speaker 3: New Mexico started, I think the year Pennsylvania started. So 499 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 3: we started not long after their disappearance on the road 500 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 3: to restoration of a lot of wildlife. It took a 501 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 3: little bit longer for alcol course, but a lot of 502 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 3: states started elk restoration in the nineteen teens nineteen twenties. 503 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 3: They just weren't successful then, and in more recent times 504 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 3: in the last several decades had been much more successful 505 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 3: in areas. 506 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: Nineteen thirteen is when many elk restoration efforts began to 507 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: take place. And did you happen to catch where most 508 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: of these elk being used for restoration efforts were coming 509 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: from Yellowstone National Park? It makes you wonder how this 510 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: could have played out differently had Teddy not established this 511 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: place and others to be protected. Our actions have consequences, 512 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: and man, I am sure thankful for the positive consequences. 513 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: When the restoration projects first started around nineteen thirteen, was 514 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: that spearheaded mainly from like sportsman type groups like you know, 515 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: trying to restore resource that they were aware that they 516 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: had wiped out. 517 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it always was the you know, the some of 518 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 3: the just the local people that didn't have that connection 519 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 3: with nature, that connection with these game species, or a 520 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 3: vested interest in having these game species healthy. They were 521 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 3: silent at the time. They just were lamenting the loss 522 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 3: of these wildlife and all of these bad people that 523 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 3: killed them. And it was really the people who had 524 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 3: this vested interest in these species and really liked these 525 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 3: species and realized that they were gone or going to 526 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 3: be gone. They're the ones that jumped up and started 527 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 3: getting money and started funding and finding and organizing restoration activities. 528 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: What about those early restoration efforts, was there anything about 529 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: them specifically that made them overall not successful? 530 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was normally like just a few individuals they 531 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 3: would crate up a handful of elk and go release 532 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 3: them somewhere. And at the time nineteen sixteen, nineteen thirteen, 533 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 3: nineteen twenties, we didn't have game wardens all over the place, 534 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 3: We didn't have the law enforcement then to protect those animals. 535 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 3: There's even a few stories where a small nucleus of 536 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 3: elks started growing and rowing, and then there was just 537 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 3: rampant poaching that kind of cranked up and actually made 538 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 3: them disappear, made them grub them out or knock them 539 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 3: way down. So lack of law enforcement and just a 540 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 3: handful of animals being brought one time in release, which 541 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 3: we know now is not the recipe for successful restoration. 542 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 3: The people restoring elk at the time were pretty amazing. 543 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 3: When you look at the old photographs, they're they're piling, 544 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 3: they're capturing them in a big corral, like in the 545 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 3: winter in Yellowstone. The north end of Yellowstone. Gardener Montana 546 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 3: was a lot was a place where a lot of 547 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 3: elk were captured in Yellowstone and then shipped out of Gardener, 548 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 3: Montana and they just they just piled them into train cars. 549 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 3: The train just came to whatever state that was stopped somewhere. 550 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 3: They built some little wooden bridges and they bring the 551 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 3: elk down into like big wagons. In Arizona, there's big 552 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 3: wagons that they used lumber to build a cage around 553 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 3: the wagon. They shoved the elk in there, and then 554 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 3: and then they would take those wagons out to the 555 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 3: release site and release the elk. And you look at 556 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 3: the just the ingenuity and the engineering and just what 557 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 3: those people did to bring elk back into their native abbatats. 558 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 3: And we'll go and fly over with netguns and helicopters 559 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 3: and you know, capture fifteen to day and put them 560 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 3: in a air conditioned trailer and take them across the country. 561 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: Okay, so we know now why some of the early 562 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: restoration efforts failed. There was a lot of trial and error, 563 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: a lot of learning, and some need for law enforcement. 564 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: But we also know of some areas, particularly in the 565 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: eastern US, that have experienced successful elk restoration. So how 566 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: did that happen. There's been some successful restoration in Pennsylvania, 567 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: there's been successful successful restoration to you know, to scale 568 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: in Arkansas, in Kentucky. What's going on there? What allowed 569 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: it to be successful this time around? 570 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly it was probably overarching recipe for success is 571 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 3: to just have the population, just have people having more 572 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 3: of a conservation ethic and wanting to restore native species 573 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 3: and being interested in that. And we've also in addition 574 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 3: to just having general support everybody loves to see animals, 575 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 3: native animals being restored like that, but not only having 576 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 3: that conservation ethic, but having this large force of law 577 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 3: enforcement to make sure that laws to allow them to 578 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 3: not be killed and not be exploited. Now we can 579 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 3: protect those and then we know more about genetics. A 580 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 3: lot of times now we'll bring animals from three different 581 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 3: places where make sure we don't get one big family 582 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 3: group and release them as the nucleus for a restoration project, 583 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 3: which they may have done in the past with some animals, 584 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 3: but so we'll bring in genetic diversity, we'll release them, 585 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 3: We'll bring in multiple waves of animals to help that 586 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 3: be successful. We'll protect them, and we've got just a 587 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 3: lot of support from the public, which kind of relates 588 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 3: to a lot of money and funding coming in to 589 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 3: help fund all that. 590 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: Today, we obviously don't have the elk populations in the 591 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: eastern part of the country that we once had, but 592 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: we have seen notable success. There's states like Pennsylvania and 593 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: Kentucky and others that have restored elk populations high enough 594 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: that there's even a regulated hunting season. And there's other 595 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: states like Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and West Virginia 596 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: and others that all have growing elk numbers. It really 597 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: is a conservation success worth noting and celebrating. But before 598 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: we move forward with any more restoration talk, there's one 599 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: factor that it would feel disingenuous to not mention. One 600 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: other thing that Steve brought up the last time him 601 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: and I were on a podcast that he was talking 602 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: about how one of the casualties of caused by CDWD 603 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: is some some ELK restoration efforts just because there's so 604 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: much controversy and worry around supporting live service right now. 605 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: How big of an issue do you think that is 606 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: going forward with alcaster restoration. 607 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's not. 608 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 3: Much restoration going on in the West, and I haven't 609 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 3: been plugged into the eastern ELK restoration, so I don't 610 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 3: know of particular instances where CWD is shut down a 611 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 3: translocation or they haven't proposed it because of that. I 612 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 3: know in general, you don't right now. You don't want 613 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 3: to put servids on the train or in the trailer 614 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 3: and move them across the country without knowing a lot 615 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,239 Speaker 3: about CWD, and it's just the easiest way to spread CWD. 616 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 2: And it doesn't need any help right now. 617 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 3: So transporting service is not a good thing right now, 618 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 3: and so agencies are are certainly justified in being careful 619 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 3: not to do that. 620 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: CWD never fun to talk about, but unfortunately worth mentioning. 621 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: While on the topic, of present day restoration efforts. Let's 622 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: round this conversation off by hearing Jim's opinion on the 623 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: future of elk in the East. What do you think 624 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: the future of elk restoration is in the East, because 625 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: it's it's I wouldn't say that it's like and this 626 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: is this is just from my point of view. I 627 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't say that it's a widely known thing. I wouldn't 628 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: say that it's like a like a hit this huge 629 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: inflection point out it's upward trending. But I would say that, 630 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: like if from the time that I was in my 631 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: teens until now, folks seem to be more aware of 632 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: elk in Pennsylvania, elk in Kentucky and Arkansas, Like what 633 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: do you what do we think the future is for 634 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: for elk being restored in the East? 635 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think people are more aware of it because 636 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 3: it's been such a success. It's been there's so many 637 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 3: states now that have growing elk populations. I think you 638 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,479 Speaker 3: mentioned it's not an inflection, and that's a good point. 639 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 3: It's not like a lot of wildlife species we introduce. 640 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 3: Some they did grow a little bit and then they 641 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 3: kind of hid an inflection point and they just take cough. 642 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 3: If you think about like a hockey stick trape graph, 643 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 3: where they just hit this point where they take off 644 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 3: and they're super abundant. We're not going to see that 645 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 3: with eastern elk because the eastern half of the United 646 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,320 Speaker 3: States is just so dominated with such a heavy human footprint. 647 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 3: They're not going to explode and have elk all over 648 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 3: the place. But I think there's a lot of room 649 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 3: for growth. There's a lot of places central Wisconsin, for example, 650 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 3: that elk population can grow a lot. There's a lot 651 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 3: of places where we can have elk and we can 652 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 3: grow existing population. 653 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: So I think it. 654 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 3: I think the future is optimistic to have more elk, 655 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 3: but it's always going to be in these populations and 656 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 3: states here and there. It's not going to be back 657 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 3: to the whole eastern United States again. 658 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: I just my mind goes It's like I wonder if 659 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: there will there will if it's realistic to think that 660 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,879 Speaker 1: there will be a day where somebody thinks about elk 661 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: hunting and they don't just drift their mind to the West. 662 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 2: I think so. 663 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 3: I think for a lot of people, and especially in 664 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 3: those states recovering them, I think I kind of did 665 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 3: nine states that have elk hunts now, and I think 666 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 3: I counted ten states that have elk population, and that's 667 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 3: an awful lot of it, very limited, very restricted, but 668 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 3: that's an awful lot of states that have sportsmen and 669 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 3: women in those states thinking about elk in their own state. 670 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: I just wonder all the time, you know, what it 671 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: would be like to you know, there's not any elk 672 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: in Mississippi right now, but I'm like, man, how crazy 673 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: would it be if in September early fall you could 674 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,240 Speaker 1: walk out somewhere in Mississippi and here in elk bugle. 675 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: That would just be just be insane. 676 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 2: That would be yeah, I think. I mean. 677 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 3: Elk are just another of a long line of examples 678 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 3: of sportsmen and women people that are interested and have 679 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 3: been restoring native species doing so, restoring some of these 680 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 3: native animals that otherwise wouldn't be restored. Bankers and lawyers 681 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 3: aren't going to get together in fund a restoration of 682 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 3: some of these species. But when they're restored like that, 683 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 3: everybody benefits. It's what we call a user pay everyone 684 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 3: benefits model, where sportsmen and women that are contributing that 685 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 3: money into conservation. It's the not the only money that 686 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 3: goes into conservation, but it's a large chunk of what 687 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 3: makes these kind of things happen. And when those populations 688 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 3: are restored. Everybody that goes camping and here's an elk 689 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 3: bugle in their home state, everyone that goes hiking and 690 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 3: sees a herd of out they're all benefiting from this restoration. 691 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 3: And that's not a new story. It's one hundred year 692 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 3: old story of restoration. 693 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot to be learned from the 694 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: story of elk in the Eastern United States, a lot 695 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: to be learned from our mistakes, a lot to be 696 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: learned from what sportsmen and women can do in the 697 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,320 Speaker 1: name of wildlife conservation, and a lot to look forward 698 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: to in the future. I would encourage all of you 699 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: to check out the l courage closest to where you live, 700 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: dive into its history as well as what's going on 701 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 1: with it currently. I can almost promise you there's a 702 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: cool story to be found there. I want to thank 703 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: all of you for listening to back Woods University as 704 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: well as Bear Grease in This Country Life. If you 705 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: liked this episode, share it with a friend this week, 706 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: or if you want to have some fun, share it 707 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: with the worst elk caller that you have in your 708 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,800 Speaker 1: contact list, and stick around because if this podcast was 709 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: an elk hunt, we've managed to cover some ground, but 710 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 1: he just bugled and he's still one ridge over. There's 711 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: a whole lot more on the way.