Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukleman, and this is a production
Speaker 1: of the bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Rendered
Speaker 1: where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the
Speaker 1: scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f
Speaker 1: HF Gear, American Maid, purpose built hunting and fishing gear
Speaker 1: that's designed to be as rugged as the place as
Speaker 1: we explore. So, I was just walking down by the
Speaker 1: creek just ten minutes ago, looked in a pool of
Speaker 1: water about six inches deep. Found that rock right there. Wow,
Speaker 1: that is a keeper.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how that get I feel like that is by accident.
Speaker 3: I think it's the thing.
Speaker 1: I think it's a geologic process because bear tell them
Speaker 1: what you just told me.
Speaker 4: I mean, I met a guy the today was wearing
Speaker 4: one on his neck like a necklace.
Speaker 3: But you come across him here and there, you know, Yeah.
Speaker 1: You'll come across this sandstone. In these creeks, this brown
Speaker 1: gravel will sometimes have a hole in it, and I'm
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a geologic explanation for it. And
Speaker 1: I think this is it really is.
Speaker 3: It's shockingly uniform.
Speaker 1: And I think this is a great opener for the
Speaker 1: water witching discussion because I think It's possible that five
Speaker 1: hundred years ago, before we knew as much about the universe,
Speaker 1: and the world was governed by superstition, by a whole
Speaker 1: lot of other you know, just odd cultural practices that
Speaker 1: tried to explain the mechanics of the universe. It's possible
Speaker 1: that a man would have picked that up and thought, oh, well,
Speaker 1: today I'm going to find a wife, or I'm gonna
Speaker 1: you know, there's gonna be some there's some correlation to
Speaker 1: what happens in your life when you find a round
Speaker 1: rock with a hole in it. But welcome to the barriers.
Speaker 2: But I have a I have another thought about that. Okay,
Speaker 2: we always wonder about the guy, you know, the cave
Speaker 2: man or the prehistoric.
Speaker 1: Inappropriate and offensive to call them cave man. Let's call
Speaker 1: them prehistoric man.
Speaker 2: The guy who invented the wheel. Maybe he didn't invent it,
Speaker 2: Maybe he just found it.
Speaker 3: That is brilliant. That could be a that could be
Speaker 3: its own book.
Speaker 2: Carry's got to finish this Sudoka that.
Speaker 1: Dad's over here studying. Welcome to the bar geras rendered.
Speaker 1: Dad got the believer hat on.
Speaker 3: You bet, man, I dressed up.
Speaker 1: This could be a whole new marketing campaign for you.
Speaker 1: We have not talked about waterwitch in a long time,
Speaker 1: so I don't really know where you stand on it
Speaker 1: right now. But should you be a believer or I
Speaker 1: could see like a new T shirt maybe with you
Speaker 1: holding the pair of witching sticks.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I could.
Speaker 1: You know, I could use the extra money.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I charge for photoshopping deals all photoshop misty.
Speaker 1: Welcome. It's been a while since we've had the crew
Speaker 1: back together.
Speaker 2: Itukem.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of it's a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of new coombs here today. But I'm really excited to
Speaker 1: talk about water witching and let me tell you, and
Speaker 1: i'd like to hear y'all's thoughts on this. It's super
Speaker 1: risky to do a podcast like this because if you're
Speaker 1: a if you're a serious journalist, which I consider myself
Speaker 1: a serious journalist. I mean that doesn't mean I always
Speaker 1: talk about serious topics or topics of consequence necessarily, but
Speaker 1: I take my reporting seriously.
Speaker 3: If I tell a story, I want it to be accurate.
Speaker 1: Now I do in the style of storytelling that I
Speaker 1: do on the Bear Grease podcast. Look, they're journalists that
Speaker 1: just report the facts and do not insert themselves into it.
Speaker 1: That's most of the journalism, maybe not most, a percentage
Speaker 1: of the journalism that we see, like a newscaster on
Speaker 1: your local news station is basically just going to be
Speaker 1: like at seven oh one pm tonight, a tractor trailer
Speaker 1: rig ran into the bridge and ran off the road.
Speaker 1: Authorities are responding now, and then they might input a
Speaker 1: little bit of their their personal opinion at the end,
Speaker 1: like I wonder what happened to him? And it's kind
Speaker 1: of funny, point me, point ban the kind of journalism
Speaker 1: I do on Bear Grease. I want to bring people
Speaker 1: along on my journey to answer questions that I have,
Speaker 1: you know, and so I try never to put my
Speaker 1: thumb on the scale. But if I do, I'm telling
Speaker 1: you that I'm doing it, you know, because that's where
Speaker 1: authors get in trouble, is when they take research or
Speaker 1: not get in trouble, but where they just create a
Speaker 1: book or a piece of work that's not really that
Speaker 1: doesn't really stand up against criticism because their thumbs on
Speaker 1: the scale, like they're taking the research and they're trying
Speaker 1: to push it to become what they want it to be.
Speaker 1: It's possible that someone could listen to this episode of
Speaker 1: Burgers and say I did that here. But I really
Speaker 1: tried to be very upfront with the data that I had,
Speaker 1: which was a many decades of being exposed to waterwitching, dowsing, rods,
Speaker 1: these things, and what I know about the research on it,
Speaker 1: this IDEO motor effect, the limited understanding of the actual
Speaker 1: science that they did when they did blind tests with
Speaker 1: water witchers and decided they couldn't find things underground anymore
Speaker 1: than anybody else.
Speaker 3: But but.
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of foolish just to type in
Speaker 1: Google and say what does What's what fuels dowsers and
Speaker 1: water witchers and it says ideometer effect and you just go, Okay,
Speaker 1: well that's what it is. Because I'm not convinced that
Speaker 1: we're asking right questions. But what what was your impressions
Speaker 1: of the of the of the podcast? We're just going
Speaker 1: to jump right in, okay, bear.
Speaker 5: Now, uh Hey. I found it very intriguing because I've
Speaker 5: dowsed and water witched and you know, seen this stuff
Speaker 5: and been involved known people who did it all my life,
Speaker 5: and uh, to actually get in it and study it
Speaker 5: and talk about it, I found.
Speaker 1: It very intriguing.
Speaker 2: Gary, what was the earliest the earliest time you remember
Speaker 2: seeing someone do it or doing it yourself.
Speaker 1: My uncle.
Speaker 5: Was building a new house in Glenwood, Arkansas, and I
Speaker 5: was probably a ten year old kid, and he could
Speaker 5: stick went out, he dug well, and I'm pretty sure
Speaker 5: it worked. I don't remember the results, but that that
Speaker 5: was he did it. Yeah, he did it. Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 5: And I talked to his daughter about that, and she
Speaker 5: remembered it. She remembered him doing that.
Speaker 1: And anyway, I'm I am amazed at the the ubiquitous
Speaker 1: nature of knowledge of water witching in this part of
Speaker 1: the world, because I don't think it's that way everywhere. Partly,
Speaker 1: we talked about it on the podcast. If you live
Speaker 1: over a major aquifer, which there's a lot of parts
Speaker 1: of the country, like in the Grand Prairie in East
Speaker 1: Arkansas on the Mississippi River, there's these giant aquifers, and
Speaker 1: there's no question that there is water one hundred foot
Speaker 1: down or sixty foot down or two hundred foot down.
Speaker 1: You don't even have to guess. And so naturally in
Speaker 1: those areas there's not as many water witchers, or at
Speaker 1: least it's not as common because you don't it's not
Speaker 1: a question that has to be answered.
Speaker 4: Kind of gravitates towards like mountain culture.
Speaker 1: A little bit. Well, I think, so I wouldn't have known.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not an expert on this at all,
Speaker 1: so I really just kind of was answering these questions
Speaker 1: that I had. So I haven't really pulled the world
Speaker 1: to be like, where does this happen? But Roger Quinton,
Speaker 1: my buddy, Roger Quinton, who is just a classic Ozark
Speaker 1: cattleman over here, just I knew I hadn't talked to
Speaker 1: Roger in a while, and I had no doubt that
Speaker 1: Roger would give me good information on water witching. I
Speaker 1: never heard of talk about it a day in his life.
Speaker 1: And I called him and I said, Roger, what do
Speaker 1: you know about water witching? And he was just like, oh, man,
Speaker 1: I don't know nothing about water witch and barbera bruh.
Speaker 3: And then he said, now.
Speaker 1: I did witch a well for Belly last year and
Speaker 1: we got fifty gallons of water and he and he
Speaker 1: knew a lot about water witching. And he couldn't believe
Speaker 1: I wanted to. He couldn't believe I wanted to interview him,
Speaker 1: because in his mind, he's just kind of he doesn't
Speaker 1: know much about it, but but he actually does. But
Speaker 1: what he said that was so just spelled it out,
Speaker 1: was he he described those four wells within like two
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty yards of each other. You know, it
Speaker 1: was on a border of his property. So like one
Speaker 1: of the wells was on his property, one was on
Speaker 1: a neighbor, one was on another neighbor. And there was
Speaker 1: two good wells, one well with natural gas, one sulfur water.
Speaker 1: And then he said, there's places in the valley he
Speaker 1: lives where you could drill thousand feet and not get water.
Speaker 1: And so you kind of start to see culturally socially, like,
Speaker 1: especially before modern well drilling, stuff like this is a
Speaker 1: question that the people needed answered that the consequence was
Speaker 1: often a matter of feet, like if you dug it
Speaker 1: there or there could make a difference in Karce terrain,
Speaker 1: It really could. And so you know, so many of
Speaker 1: these kind of folk remedies answer a fundamental question that
Speaker 1: people just don't have insight into, you know. But I
Speaker 1: wanted to say this in the intro to people are
Speaker 1: going to roast me. I put a I put I
Speaker 1: put a a video up of Carl Holt, which in
Speaker 1: water on my Instagram today and that dad to me
Speaker 1: was like walking into a gauntlet. I knew that the
Speaker 1: world was going to roast me for the unintelligence of
Speaker 1: me like believing this stuff just when you throw it
Speaker 1: to the mass audience. I think if any one of
Speaker 1: those people listen to my podcast, they would see that
Speaker 1: I was not trying to answer the question of does
Speaker 1: water witching work?
Speaker 2: Right, No, that's not the question.
Speaker 1: I'm not convinced that it does. No, to be honest
Speaker 1: with him, I'm not sure that water witching actually you
Speaker 1: can find underground water. But something moves the sticks, and
Speaker 1: that's that's the answer to the question.
Speaker 3: What moves the sticks?
Speaker 1: Period. So for for all you people out there that
Speaker 1: commented on my Instagram before you listen to the podcast,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that I'm I'm listening.
Speaker 6: I'm looking at some of these comments. You got a
Speaker 6: lot of people who believe in it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was actually the home team came in.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he appreciated.
Speaker 6: And then you got a couple of people who are
Speaker 6: micro analyzing your guys. Knuckles and hands and width a
Speaker 6: part at the beginning versus the end, which also is
Speaker 6: kind of tricky to do when someone's walking towards you.
Speaker 1: Why I put two different angles and on of the
Speaker 1: video and I didn't expect it to translate. I truly
Speaker 1: didn't expect it to translate.
Speaker 2: I think it's really like try it. Just try it.
Speaker 2: I mean, grab a couple of coat hangers and go
Speaker 2: try it. I mean, I keep saying it like I
Speaker 2: was a skeptic. I thought it was somebody was I
Speaker 2: thought it was IDEO motor or someone just moving it.
Speaker 2: But when you put two rods in your hands, tell
Speaker 2: it moved.
Speaker 1: Tell what the idio motor effect.
Speaker 2: The IDEO motor effect is that you you create subconscious movement,
Speaker 2: like it's literally subconscious. You don't know you're doing it.
Speaker 2: It looks like something's moving it, but it's actually you, yeah, subconsciously.
Speaker 1: And if you type in on the internet, what makes
Speaker 1: witching sticks move on?
Speaker 3: That pops up very quickly.
Speaker 1: I think to just accept that as true just because
Speaker 1: the Google says it is not super super intelligent either.
Speaker 1: Because I did some research on the audiometer effect and
Speaker 1: I would love to get an expert. I would fly
Speaker 1: across the country to talk to the national expert on
Speaker 1: the audiometer motor audio motor effect. I truly would because
Speaker 1: basically what you're looking at there, Well, I.
Speaker 6: Was looking at the things and now I'm looking at
Speaker 6: ideo motor effect because I think you need have to
Speaker 6: find it for people who have not did not listen
Speaker 6: to your thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, basically, it's where your thoughts trigger. Yeah, so it's
Speaker 1: a psychological phenomenon where unconscious thoughts and intentions can influence
Speaker 1: bodily movements and actions, sometimes leading to seemingly inexplicable physical responses.
Speaker 1: So basically it's saying that the person holding the rods
Speaker 1: is moving in himself and that that's a that's the
Speaker 1: first thing that you would think if you saw somebody
Speaker 1: doing it, it's like, well, yeah, you're just you're just
Speaker 1: moving it down. If if it is in fact that
Speaker 1: audio motor effect, that's pretty cool that we can be
Speaker 1: that unconscious. And it makes me wonder what other areas
Speaker 1: of life are we completely divorced from reality? Because if
Speaker 1: you take a pair of clotheshangers out in your yard
Speaker 1: and walk over your waterline, let me know what happens.
Speaker 1: It doesn't not work sometimes and does work sometimes.
Speaker 6: It Wait what are you saying?
Speaker 1: I mean it's not it works every time?
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, it works every time?
Speaker 1: What did you think, Misty.
Speaker 6: I thought it was really interesting. I did bring my
Speaker 6: psychology book from my color section.
Speaker 1: We get we let bear go, Yeah, let go.
Speaker 4: I'll yeah, I'm sorry, Okay, I'm I'm kind of torn,
Speaker 4: like they were there were you know, like whenever you
Speaker 4: say something like that and whenever you know, like I've
Speaker 4: done it before and the sticks cross. But then also
Speaker 4: like whenever you really dug into like you know, individual
Speaker 4: situations where like it worked, sometimes it didn't work. You know,
Speaker 4: it's kind of fifty to fifty. I'm a little bit torn.
Speaker 4: But here's what I think. I think that this is
Speaker 4: maybe one of those things you just don't look too
Speaker 4: deep into. You just kind of like, you know, it's
Speaker 4: like you don't have to have the science on it.
Speaker 4: Like I whenever I was listening to it, I was
Speaker 4: kind of thinking about like you know, like sometimes whenever
Speaker 4: you're hunting, there's like a logical way to go about something,
Speaker 4: but while you're out there, you feel like you should
Speaker 4: do something else that makes no sense. And I've had
Speaker 4: a lot of success doing that instead of doing what
Speaker 4: made sense. And I feel like it's like not, you know,
Speaker 4: there's no science behind it, Like there's no real logical thinking.
Speaker 4: And I think on something like this, we're looking too
Speaker 4: deep into the logic and.
Speaker 1: Maybe there's there's no logic.
Speaker 4: Maybe it's just stick's just cross, you know. So I
Speaker 4: don't know, I'm kind of torn because like, you know,
Speaker 4: like there is a lot of it that's kind of
Speaker 4: like you know, it's just kind of like skepticism a
Speaker 4: little bit or like you know, but yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 4: I'm kind of torn.
Speaker 1: Well, and I think that's where that's where I ended
Speaker 1: too was And you know, if you haven't listened to
Speaker 1: the episode, that that's the spoiler, is that at the end,
Speaker 1: I'm really no closer to a a synopsis that that
Speaker 1: wasn't at the beginning because I would believe the ideo
Speaker 1: motor effect. If I sat with an expert today and
Speaker 1: he and I could understand how the sticks and Carl
Speaker 1: Holt's hands. Hey, I'm a smart fella, smart enough, I
Speaker 1: promise you anybody that was standing three feet from Carl
Speaker 1: Holt and saw those sticks, you just would be like
Speaker 1: they're moving, Like I'm not that gullible that they literally
Speaker 1: twisted in his hands while his hand And that was
Speaker 1: my point, is okay, if it is the IDEO motor fact.
Speaker 1: And again some expert potentially could tell me how this
Speaker 1: is possible. Now, if the human palm was lined with
Speaker 1: like snakeskin scales or centipede leg and you could you
Speaker 1: could hold something in your hand like that turkey leg
Speaker 1: right there and make it twist. If we could do
Speaker 1: that physically, I would be like, yeah, it's the IDEO motor.
Speaker 1: It's it's like him holding that right there and that
Speaker 1: turkey leg twisting. It's like your hand didn't twist the
Speaker 1: turkey leg. Do you understand? That's the only part. And
Speaker 1: I have to get excited about that because that's just
Speaker 1: what I believe.
Speaker 2: Here's the thing that throws another wrench into it to me,
Speaker 2: Like I could see where putting the metal rods in
Speaker 2: your hands, Like I thought it was interesting what Carl said.
Speaker 2: He said, I think it's something in someone's body, Yeah
Speaker 2: that makes it do it. Like I could see there
Speaker 2: being some kind of an electromagnetic force in there that
Speaker 2: could cause those metal rods to move. I don't understand
Speaker 2: how it translates with a green limb.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well that's what doctor Kinnefect said was that if
Speaker 1: a physicist were trying to analyze this These are two
Speaker 1: completely different questions.
Speaker 2: We need a physicist to go water witch with us
Speaker 2: and be.
Speaker 1: Well, they wouldn't. I don't think they'd have any more
Speaker 1: conclusions than we already have.
Speaker 2: I mean, but there's always so much skepticism, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, they they're they're they're taking people's word
Speaker 2: for it. I want them to try it. Yeah, let's
Speaker 2: kidnap ken Effect and take him out.
Speaker 1: Oh, he would do it. He was He was a
Speaker 1: cool guy. Quick story about doctor Kenefect. Haven't seen him
Speaker 1: first of all. This episode I thought just laid out
Speaker 1: really fun. I mean, part of the other thing. The
Speaker 1: reason I talked about this is just I'm interested in
Speaker 1: how culturally people handle water witching, you know how how
Speaker 1: Carl Holt when I said he knew, He's like, there's
Speaker 1: no science behind this. Science says it's fake. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: do you have a problem with that? And I mean
Speaker 1: he's like, no, I mean it works.
Speaker 3: That was his thing.
Speaker 1: That's what That's pretty much what all the people on
Speaker 1: the podcast said are just like, hey, I don't need
Speaker 1: science to validate this. It works. But it was really
Speaker 1: cool here and Mark Findahl, my dear friend up the road,
Speaker 1: here talk about Seth Timmins, that old man. And now
Speaker 1: I hope that people understood that what Seth is doing,
Speaker 1: I think we could say, I mean that's like stretching
Speaker 1: the rules a lot.
Speaker 6: Which part of it it.
Speaker 1: Was a gift or well, he cures would carry them
Speaker 1: with him, pill bottles with him that were full of
Speaker 1: whatever he was looking for, and so he would take
Speaker 1: his he would take his rods, and if he wanted
Speaker 1: to find sulfur water or well, he actually mainly used
Speaker 1: his pill bottles for finding natural gas. So he had
Speaker 1: natural gas sand in one, good water in one. So
Speaker 1: he basically his rods might indicate and he might not
Speaker 1: know if it's sulfur water regular water. So he'd put
Speaker 1: sulfur water in his hand and see if it indicated,
Speaker 1: and if it did, he'd be like, man, you got
Speaker 1: sulfur water. And he could also had mechanisms to be
Speaker 1: able to tell how deep it was and all this stuff.
Speaker 2: I wonder if he kept a diary or anything of
Speaker 2: all his water witching, right, because talking to Colin Eaton,
Speaker 2: I mean he's like, he's like, I do this five
Speaker 2: times a week, and I can do it with one
Speaker 2: hundred percent certainty.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Yeah, it's it's tricky because when you when you
Speaker 6: hear people who do stuff, and I understand all the reasons,
Speaker 6: but when you you hear people I'm kind of a
Speaker 6: bear where I've had enough experiences and I think that
Speaker 6: there's you know, there's a natural world and and and
Speaker 6: that has laws that govern it, but that's not the
Speaker 6: only world we interface with, and and I just think
Speaker 6: that when you I don't know, I tend to on
Speaker 6: this kind of stuff that has this many different potential
Speaker 6: potential ways to measure it in any Yeah, I tend
Speaker 6: to go with the people who have experienced over because
Speaker 6: I don't trust the lab in that scenario. I know
Speaker 6: it's not going to work. I know you cannot measure
Speaker 6: some things in a lab because the circumstances the lab
Speaker 6: are not the same. But when I hear someone say,
Speaker 6: I've done this a thousand times in the last three years,
Speaker 6: I'm going to go with what that guy says, because
Speaker 6: I trust that more than this lab experience of just
Speaker 6: at working in social science and even in physical science,
Speaker 6: it labs have some limitations.
Speaker 1: Doctor kin Effect's story was so spot on when he
Speaker 1: gave the example of the Russian lab that they thought
Speaker 1: it was fraudulent because they couldn't replicate this thing anywhere.
Speaker 1: And they go there and they watch what they do,
Speaker 1: and the sky, you know, puts this ear grease. He
Speaker 1: runs the wire behind his ear.
Speaker 2: It's ear grease, not bear grease, right right, And.
Speaker 1: That is what.
Speaker 6: There is a similar podcast this in the Soviet in
Speaker 6: Russia called ear Grease.
Speaker 1: That's that is what. And I talked to doctor Kenfect
Speaker 1: for over an hour and you heard like seventeen minutes
Speaker 1: or maybe like nine minutes of him talking. And that's baseasically,
Speaker 1: we just went round and round about like what exactly
Speaker 1: are we studying? Because the difference between Seth Timmins born
Speaker 1: in nineteen twelve that carries around pill bottles sulfur water
Speaker 1: and good water and saltwater, and Colin Deaton, who works
Speaker 1: up here at this excavation company in northwest Arkansas, that
Speaker 1: which is utility lines, you might as well be comparing,
Speaker 1: you know, an apple farmer to a boat captain, you know,
Speaker 1: on the Atlantic Ocean, like they're just doing different things, yep,
Speaker 1: completely different, and yet we find these correlation points. And
Speaker 1: you know, the skeptic inside if I was playing devil's advocate.
Speaker 1: I would say it's possible that somebody like a Colin
Speaker 1: would be way more in tune with the world than
Speaker 1: he even realizes. When he steps on to a job site.
Speaker 1: He maybe doesn't subconsciously know, but he's seen so many
Speaker 1: that he knows where that water line is, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: and and so the ideo motor effect comes into practice
Speaker 1: and confirms what he thinks, and most of the time
Speaker 1: he's right. I'm not saying I believe that. I'm just
Speaker 1: saying that could be sad, and you would have to
Speaker 1: kind of be like maybe, because I do think that
Speaker 1: humans are masters, and we learned this when we were
Speaker 1: living in the wild. But we're masters of finding correlations
Speaker 1: that help us be successful. I mean, we're masters at
Speaker 1: I mean, we had to just look for anything that
Speaker 1: we could to give us any insight into the future,
Speaker 1: like bear grease. Like right here, I keep this on
Speaker 1: this jar bear grease on my windowsill, and you see
Speaker 1: it's bisected. It separates in this clear, clear olive oil
Speaker 1: colored liquid and then this pak thicker liquid. In the
Speaker 1: Indians in the Southwest United States used to put bear
Speaker 1: oil in the scraped bladder of a deer. So that
Speaker 1: it was translucent, and they forecasted the weather with bar
Speaker 1: oil because barreil just ever so slightly changes with barometric pressure.
Speaker 1: And for me to think that I could do that
Speaker 1: as well as them, it's kind of crazy. Because they
Speaker 1: lived in a world that didn't have the weather app
Speaker 1: on their phone, that they didn't have a shelter over
Speaker 1: their head quite like I have, and air conditioning. Their
Speaker 1: entire existence was based upon them being able to have
Speaker 1: some certainty about the future. And man, I just feel
Speaker 1: like they were dialed in a way that we wouldn't be.
Speaker 1: I mean, this temple that we live inside of, this body,
Speaker 1: I think is capable of so much more than what
Speaker 1: a modern human asks of it in terms of these
Speaker 1: these things that that might not line up with all
Speaker 1: the modern laws of physics.
Speaker 6: I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1: What about so misty doctor Newcomb here has brought out
Speaker 1: her physics textbook.
Speaker 6: Not physics, psychology, psychology different, different, because that's the question,
Speaker 6: isn't it.
Speaker 3: Is this a psychology question or a physics question?
Speaker 6: And and you know, we were we were talking about
Speaker 6: this all the time as Clay would go interview people.
Speaker 6: And I think this makes a little more sense with
Speaker 6: the metal kind of like what you were saying, the
Speaker 6: metal ride versus the wood. But one of the things
Speaker 6: I thought about, and I've thought about this in a
Speaker 6: couple a couple of different times, and I'm not really
Speaker 6: an expert, so I'm just kind of putting it out there.
Speaker 6: But I just remember, in you know, your intro to
Speaker 6: psychology class in college, they talk about neurons and synapses
Speaker 6: and like, when you have a thought, there's actually and
Speaker 6: I was gonna try to explain it, but I decided
Speaker 6: it would be too boring. And but when you have
Speaker 6: a thought, like every time you when you focus your mind,
Speaker 6: there's a chemical reaction and a an electrical reaction happening
Speaker 6: in your brain. I mean, I mean, that's that is
Speaker 6: just truth. And and it's kind of kind of tricky
Speaker 6: to explain. But well for someone like me who doesn't
Speaker 6: explain it all the time, a psychology professor could probably
Speaker 6: explain it very easily. But but the you know, those
Speaker 6: synapses get get stronger the more you do something, and
Speaker 6: and I'm just just and and and those those things
Speaker 6: speed up. So to me, one of the things I
Speaker 6: wonder is, and I I've heard people describe water witching
Speaker 6: as when they concentrated hard and when that guy squeezed
Speaker 6: real hard. And it's difficult for me not to see
Speaker 6: how there might not be a chemical electromagnetic that reaction
Speaker 6: that's happening in their brain when they do that, creating
Speaker 6: some type of reaction with what's in the ground.
Speaker 1: I'm oh, so you're saying.
Speaker 2: The electro the elect the electro the process of the
Speaker 2: neurons firing produces an electrical impulse that could be interacting
Speaker 2: with whatever it is in the ground.
Speaker 1: What makes I thought you were going to say that
Speaker 1: was the ideo motor effect.
Speaker 6: Well, no, I don't think. I mean I think that
Speaker 6: what if you're what if your body because your body's
Speaker 6: connected to the ground, what if there are actual electro
Speaker 6: magnetic things happening. Yeah, because there is an electrical charge
Speaker 6: when you think a thought. Yeah, and the more the
Speaker 6: more you think something this, the stronger those the faster
Speaker 6: those charges happen.
Speaker 2: So, like you're saying, if you believe it, it could
Speaker 2: be more. Yeah, lausible that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, But I am not an expert. I'm not like
Speaker 6: a psychiatrist. I'm not a psychology professor. This was my
Speaker 6: intro to science, my intro to psychology class that I
Speaker 6: get that information from. And I'm just saying, but why
Speaker 6: wouldn't how why would that not have some impact that
Speaker 6: electrical if there is an electrical charge when you focus
Speaker 6: on something and there is a chemical churge.
Speaker 1: That's a good point. Well, but that also could be
Speaker 1: the mechanism of the audio motor effect is that when
Speaker 1: you concentrate and think about it, that it produces electrical
Speaker 1: charge that makes you do involuntary movements. But but I
Speaker 1: see exactly what you're saying, and it really can't be
Speaker 1: denied that the power of human belief or faith, even
Speaker 1: people that don't believe in in the in the traditional
Speaker 1: idea of like a biblical faith, like faith in a God,
Speaker 1: that would that was within a spiritual faith in a
Speaker 1: spiritual realm. You know, basically there would be a group
Speaker 1: of people that would think all that there is is
Speaker 1: what can be seen with the eyes and measured by physics.
Speaker 1: So but even even those people will say, some crazy
Speaker 1: stuff happens when people believe. Yeah, you know, I actually
Speaker 1: heard I'm thinking of an actual conversation and a person
Speaker 1: that I heard say that that It shocked me when
Speaker 1: they said.
Speaker 3: It because they were like Oh yeah, crazy.
Speaker 1: Stuff happens when people just think it's going to happen,
Speaker 1: which is which is interesting. But here's something that I
Speaker 1: did with Carl. I had actually never been in the
Speaker 1: presence of somebody that used a used.
Speaker 3: A fork stick to witch water.
Speaker 1: All my experience pretty much was finding water lines and
Speaker 1: stuff and utility lines with with the witch and rods.
Speaker 1: When Carl did it, I said, does it work if
Speaker 1: you don't grip the stick real tight? And he was
Speaker 1: like no, and he walked over it just holding it
Speaker 1: real light and it it didn't bob down. And if
Speaker 1: you took if you took a if you took a jig,
Speaker 1: like if you had a remote control car with a
Speaker 1: stick on it that could hold the witching sticks and
Speaker 1: you drove that remote control car around, I'm quite certain
Speaker 1: the rods wouldn't move. And that's why Carl said, I
Speaker 1: think it has something to do with your body, which
Speaker 1: someone who is trying to build a case for the
Speaker 1: IDEO motor, in which they do right, you wouldn't have
Speaker 1: to try to build the case. You would say, well,
Speaker 1: obviously it's IDEO motor because you have to be holding
Speaker 1: it for your body to subconsciously move and again, the
Speaker 1: only thing that's keeping me from fully buying the IDEO
Speaker 1: motor thing is I just don't understand the physics of
Speaker 1: how if I griped that turkey leg that hard, that
Speaker 1: that turkey leg can twist in my hand and it's
Speaker 1: me subconsciously doing it. Now if I turned my hand, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm telling you the wood bent with Carl like it
Speaker 1: it like it like shook.
Speaker 6: And the other side of that is, if this is
Speaker 6: an IDEO motor thing, how do you know where the
Speaker 6: water is? To think that that's where the water is?
Speaker 1: Well, now, that is where all the hocus pocus potentially
Speaker 1: comes because like when me and Carl walked up in
Speaker 1: the backyard, we knew that there was a well there,
Speaker 1: so our brains were like, there's water there, So it
Speaker 1: would clearly if it was fake, would signal there because
Speaker 1: we knew it. If you were a water witcher walk
Speaker 1: if I told y'all want to well in this acre
Speaker 1: land and you start walking circles, where were gonna say, Josh.
Speaker 2: Well, I just that whole thing. Those witch and rods.
Speaker 2: I ordered those witch and rods right there, Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I took them out. I took them out because I
Speaker 2: knew where my water line was. And I walked over
Speaker 2: the water line and I was like, they are not moving.
Speaker 2: And I walked back forth. And I went out today
Speaker 2: and realized my water line is actually not there. It's
Speaker 2: in a different spot. Really yeah, And I couldn't get
Speaker 2: him to move. And when I walked over my water line,
Speaker 2: they moved.
Speaker 1: Oh that's that's a blind test right there.
Speaker 2: I thought it was my water line because I have
Speaker 2: a box in my front yard and I went over
Speaker 2: and looked at it. I'm like, why are these not crossing?
Speaker 2: And I looked at it and realized it was an
Speaker 2: AT and T box. It was just my phone line.
Speaker 1: So I was like, well, you know, there's there there
Speaker 1: there just as many people is is swear that it
Speaker 1: works like these under guys that dig underground utilities and stuff.
Speaker 1: I have a good friend over in Oklahoma. I won't
Speaker 1: say his name. He knows who he is. He he
Speaker 1: laughs at me for for even acknowledging water witching. And
Speaker 1: he he digs. He digs for a living on.
Speaker 3: A big excavator.
Speaker 2: And he doesn't whitch.
Speaker 3: No, he thinks he's just like Clay.
Speaker 1: I used to think you were smart or you know,
Speaker 1: he's like I used to think you were normal or whatever.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: He's just like, I can't believe you're this.
Speaker 2: I've hardly run into an excavator that doesn't do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah really yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: Most of them keep witching rods in the truck.
Speaker 1: Well okay, but here's the thing too. Anybody that that
Speaker 1: just is adamant and is upset about how stupid we are,
Speaker 1: that's not done it. I have like zero exactly. It's
Speaker 1: just like, okay, whatever, dude, you've not you've not felt
Speaker 1: it in your hands and bear sticks move?
Speaker 2: Have you done it? Yeah? Did you feel the sticks move?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: And I've honestly done it, like since I was a
Speaker 4: little kid, and I never even questioned it until now.
Speaker 1: I just thought, yeah, you just walk over the waterline.
Speaker 2: Sticks moved out.
Speaker 4: Then whenever I was listening to this podcast, I was like,
Speaker 4: wait a minute, this is I've been too crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know who duped us? The believer? Do you
Speaker 1: remember when we I vividly remember when we went and
Speaker 1: witched And this is where it just starts sounding kookie
Speaker 1: as it can be. But when we went and witch
Speaker 1: those graves that.
Speaker 2: If it looks cookie and smells cook cookie is probably cookie.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, Uh, you got an earth and it's
Speaker 7: made up different ways, and you put something in the ground,
Speaker 7: an old car, a grave.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and all.
Speaker 5: These forces that that I've read about that you came
Speaker 5: up with here, gravity and wisdom and magnitude, all we're
Speaker 5: conductor of that. And you know, you might have a
Speaker 5: cookbook in your hand and for some reason, that's a
Speaker 5: great conductor. It just happens that that limb really is
Speaker 5: a great conductor. They say it needs to be green
Speaker 5: or helps to be green, certain type of tree. You
Speaker 5: take a metal odd.
Speaker 2: I mean, we need to do better for your barefoot.
Speaker 5: But uh, you find water because there's no old car bodies,
Speaker 5: there's no graves in the area.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 1: You find water because it's everywhere.
Speaker 5: But if you if you were in a cemetery trying
Speaker 5: to find water, you wouldn't have much luck.
Speaker 1: You're gonna find graves.
Speaker 3: Hey, your cars beeping?
Speaker 5: I hit a button, didn't.
Speaker 1: I Made'll be there in a minute.
Speaker 2: He just doused for his bronco.
Speaker 1: No, you know, there's just so many variables. It's hard
Speaker 1: to it's hard to uh, let you get it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now that is witchcraft. Yeah, be able through their able
Speaker 1: to start your car.
Speaker 2: Yep, witchcraft is all a matter of time?
Speaker 1: What do you mean of age?
Speaker 2: That would have been witchcraft one hundred years ago? Yeah,
Speaker 2: and now it's normal. The fact that we can pick
Speaker 2: up a cell phone and I can call all the
Speaker 2: way across the world, that's witchcraft.
Speaker 6: I disagree with you, Josh one hundred years ago, Okay,
Speaker 6: but I don't believe that witchcraft is all a matter
Speaker 6: of time.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. What she said is that there is such
Speaker 1: a I would I would say that there there is.
Speaker 2: I'm using the term loosely like perception about perception of
Speaker 2: what is supernatural and what.
Speaker 1: Is This is a good place for me to say
Speaker 1: that my whole life, I've been quite uncomfortable with the
Speaker 1: naming of witching for water, Like I don't, I don't
Speaker 1: play around with and I don't think anybody in this
Speaker 1: room does, Like we don't. It's a market major marketing
Speaker 1: blunder of there that that they called it witch And
Speaker 1: that's the reason I feel comfortable even talking about this,
Speaker 1: Like I if like I don't want to talk about
Speaker 1: the occult or anything weird like that, like uninterested. My
Speaker 1: interest in this is that I believe that this is
Speaker 1: not that, and I believe that most people don't.
Speaker 2: Going back to the source, Gary, when your uncle did that,
Speaker 2: did he call it witching? Did he call it doubtsing?
Speaker 5: Witchy?
Speaker 2: Nothing?
Speaker 3: I think witching.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I threw in the little tidbit that doctor Knefect
Speaker 1: told me about the it's one of his thesis students
Speaker 1: that is doing a project right now. And I actually
Speaker 1: tried to reach out to the kid, and I'm not
Speaker 1: sure what happened, but they can, as I understood it,
Speaker 1: they can detect a grave with It's kind of funny.
Speaker 1: A gravometer a gravity. That's that's what I need. Ave found.
Speaker 2: I got a little device.
Speaker 1: Here, witching sticks. No, I'm pretty sure that's what they
Speaker 1: called a gravometer that measures gravity. And and he they
Speaker 1: said that you can find a grave because the gravity
Speaker 1: is slightly different where there's a hollow space under the ground,
Speaker 1: because gravity is based upon mass, so gravity and so
Speaker 1: like if there's a hollow space, but he said, it
Speaker 1: would be such an imperceptible amount of gravity that it
Speaker 1: would be almost impossible for your sticks to move that much. So,
Speaker 1: you know, so in his understanding of physics, he's like, no,
Speaker 1: it's not gravity, but when you walk over a grave
Speaker 1: there is actually less gravity. He also told me something random,
Speaker 1: but there's a place in Arkansas that the gravity is
Speaker 1: like notably different than everywhere else less. There's like a
Speaker 1: like a like a I don't I don't even want
Speaker 1: to say how far My impression was. It was like
Speaker 1: a twenty mile stretch, very narrow, like a like a
Speaker 1: crack almost where gravity is like quite a bit different.
Speaker 6: Is it around the fault?
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so. I don't think so, but
Speaker 1: it was. It was somewhere in the washtalls down here,
Speaker 1: and uh just just interesting, you know, just like there's
Speaker 1: some weird stuff going on out there that's that's hard
Speaker 1: to explain. Yeah, and interesting.
Speaker 4: This did bring up a lot of questions for me
Speaker 4: about like how water is actually like how it works,
Speaker 4: because I've always been under the depression that like a
Speaker 4: mountain has an aquafer in it or like they're you know,
Speaker 4: like there's kind of like an aquifer all like anywhere
Speaker 4: you go, there's an aquifer here, because like you think
Speaker 4: about like springs you know, coming out of a mountain,
Speaker 4: like right, you just think that like there's you know
Speaker 4: a big aquafer behind it. But if there's like you know,
Speaker 4: like these little pockets where there's water that.
Speaker 1: I don't know it.
Speaker 4: It kind of made me like question what I believed
Speaker 4: about how water was stored in the ground. And then
Speaker 4: another interesting thing was, like you know you think about
Speaker 4: like whenever you come across like a like a well,
Speaker 4: you know out in the woods. You know, whenever you
Speaker 4: find those like fifteen foot deep like homesteaders, well, like
Speaker 4: how they always have water.
Speaker 1: In the bottom.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but like we have to drill like, you know,
Speaker 4: a couple hundred feet now to hit water, like you know,
Speaker 4: to find a well, and that's like.
Speaker 1: A twelve foot well, but it has water in the
Speaker 1: bottom of it somehow, Right. So I'm just really confused
Speaker 1: about water works. Well, the answer would have to be
Speaker 1: spoken to by geologists. I don't I don't really understand
Speaker 1: underground water, but I know that imagine imagine here in
Speaker 1: the Ozarks, there's these like big flat limestone benches and stuff.
Speaker 1: Imagine a mountain and there's like layers of limestone, So
Speaker 1: rainwater seeps into the ground and then kind of hovers
Speaker 1: over the top. They can't go through the limestone, so
Speaker 1: it just kind of like sits in the soil profile
Speaker 1: above the limestone, and it's probably gradually moving one direction
Speaker 1: or the other. And you drill a well down there
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden create a cavity. And then
Speaker 1: water is attracted to a cavity, it's attracted to a
Speaker 1: space that gravity's pulling it down in. So the shaft
Speaker 1: of your well, so you would drill through imagine imagine
Speaker 1: a slab of limestone and there's water standing on top
Speaker 1: of it in the soil profile, and then you drill
Speaker 1: one hundred foot well through that. The water goes down
Speaker 1: into the well, goes and fills up. And basically every
Speaker 1: time you put want water out of that well, there's
Speaker 1: well there because it's always sucking water from that kind
Speaker 1: of vein of water. It's you know, that's just anecdotal
Speaker 1: knowledge of how it works now. Aquifers that are literally
Speaker 1: like jicks lakes of water underneath the surface. But the
Speaker 1: hand dug wells, though, as I understand that, you you know,
Speaker 1: you've obviously got to hit water within the depth that
Speaker 1: you dig.
Speaker 3: So most the hand dug wells were dug on springs.
Speaker 1: Like you wouldn't just go out and just well, you
Speaker 1: would have, you'd probably have some knowledge of you know,
Speaker 1: that guy over there dug and he hit water at
Speaker 1: fifteen feet, So if we dig a fifteen foot well here,
Speaker 1: it will probably hit water. But they also maybe got
Speaker 1: in places where there was a seep or something. And
Speaker 1: then if you dig a four foot by four foot
Speaker 1: fifteen foot shaft, it's just going to fill up with
Speaker 1: water over time. It's just gonna be like a storage tank.
Speaker 1: Does that makes sense a cistern? Yeah. We dug a
Speaker 1: well here on our property when we first moved here
Speaker 1: because we didn't have city water. We went down three
Speaker 1: hundred feet and only got like six gallons a minute,
Speaker 1: but only have about like a seventy gallon reservoir because
Speaker 1: we didn't hit water for a long time. Wells, this
Speaker 1: is boring. Did you wait for that?
Speaker 3: Well? No, you just.
Speaker 2: That's the problem.
Speaker 1: There was the problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah I did. I
Speaker 1: didn't witch it. I didn't get good water, but we
Speaker 1: lived off that for years.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it wasn't terrible. I mean, it was a family off.
Speaker 1: To our house and we'd have to be like, you
Speaker 1: want a glass of water, you should bring your own water.
Speaker 6: No, it was not that bad. If we were a
Speaker 6: family of six that lived off it for years. It
Speaker 6: did seem like in August when we would have huge
Speaker 6: gatherings we would run out of water. We would, but
Speaker 6: we would have you know, probably fifty two one hundred
Speaker 6: people here, and that you'd have to put intense pressure
Speaker 6: on it. It was decent for everyday life. It was really,
Speaker 6: it was very rare. I googled just now to see
Speaker 6: if people in Arizona water witch because what bears questions
Speaker 6: you were talking about in the Delta. They don't really
Speaker 6: because you know, you just stick something in and you
Speaker 6: get water and then the mountains. But I was just
Speaker 6: in Arizona. It's super arid, dry flat in most spots.
Speaker 6: And we got a Tucson woman waterwitching in the news
Speaker 6: in Arizona. Yeah, and several so, but rural in rural areas,
Speaker 6: not cities.
Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting any water you know, my father in law,
Speaker 1: Steve talked about, uh, water witcher's in Florida. Oh really yeah,
Speaker 1: and and water's everywhere down there. But he said he
Speaker 1: remembered them like trying to just find the best spot
Speaker 1: using using sticks, you.
Speaker 2: Know, you go ten feet instead of twelve feet.
Speaker 6: Yeah, we got a water witcher in Kansas, people asking
Speaker 6: on Facebook for an experienced water witcher in Prescott, Arizona. M. Sorry,
Speaker 6: I'm kind of going down the rabbit trail here. I'm curious. Yeah, Oregon.
Speaker 6: So sorry, I'll stop, but they're all there, all yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: How do you feel about how do you feel about
Speaker 2: whether a witcher should take money or not? You think
Speaker 2: that affects their efficacy.
Speaker 6: I think they should take money.
Speaker 2: You think they should take come out.
Speaker 6: I think anytime you spend, you spend time, pay the
Speaker 6: person what they were. I think they're asking them to come.
Speaker 2: I think you should give them a token of gratitude,
Speaker 2: not money, like a blaf of bread or some farm.
Speaker 6: You're only you only think bartering is acceptable.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you can Barrian goods, okay, like bread that you made.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, Or you can barter with a water you cannot, okay,
Speaker 6: got it.
Speaker 1: I loved it with Roger because I told you, when
Speaker 1: I called Roger, I knew that he would know the rules.
Speaker 3: I just knew he would know the rules.
Speaker 1: And he was like, hey, if some waters try to
Speaker 1: charge you money, you need to find somebody else. Its
Speaker 1: like they don't know any better than anybody else, you know.
Speaker 5: I kind of feel like anybody can water which if
Speaker 5: they'll try it, you know, I mean it could be
Speaker 5: certain bodies, you know, if what I'm saying would be true,
Speaker 5: that we're a conductor of all that stuff, right. You know,
Speaker 5: if you're off the ground, suspended in midair, I don't
Speaker 5: know what would happen. But if you're neck to the.
Speaker 6: Earth a good test. I have never water witched.
Speaker 1: I think anybody could do it.
Speaker 5: I don't know. It could be well, your chemical makeup
Speaker 5: might make it where it's less effective or more, but
Speaker 5: anybody ough'll be able to do it.
Speaker 1: And that brings up an interesting question about what we're
Speaker 1: actually what we're actually talking about. If you're talking about
Speaker 1: finding groundwater, I think that there it's possible that guys
Speaker 1: that have done it. Let's say there's somebody. I don't
Speaker 1: know anybody that's witched a thousand wells.
Speaker 6: But.
Speaker 1: You might be so tuned into where water is, how
Speaker 1: it flows, the sticks, all these data points that you
Speaker 1: are just a master. I mean, now, can anybody make
Speaker 1: the sticks move with with close hagers, I would say
Speaker 1: almost yes, like they it just almost works on everybody,
Speaker 1: Go get a green stick and tell somebody to go
Speaker 1: find underground water.
Speaker 5: They can find it.
Speaker 1: Well I'm saying, I'm saying, no, they can't. I'm saying
Speaker 1: the guy that's done it his whole life, I'm right,
Speaker 1: you're wrong. Okay, No, go ah, yeah, well, just who
Speaker 1: knows what that guy is tapped into that he I'm
Speaker 1: not even saying spiritually, but you know, or something like that,
Speaker 1: but just he's he's he's done it, he knows. And yeah,
Speaker 1: the academic research was done in the nineties that I
Speaker 1: read about, where did these blind tests right with people.
Speaker 6: In the meta analysis? Didn't you read one of those
Speaker 6: go ahead? I mean, didn't you where they kind of
Speaker 6: collected all the different studies that had ever been done.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know about that, okay, but my question
Speaker 1: is if I went and got thirty water witchers to
Speaker 1: do a test on, I don't know. Are they as
Speaker 1: good as Colin Deaton He's done it a thousand times
Speaker 1: and does it every day. Or did they get guys
Speaker 1: like me that have just kind of dabbled with it.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's just so hard to quantify.
Speaker 5: I had a guy explained, you know, we're t I
Speaker 5: told him's coming up here to water wishing deal and
Speaker 5: he told me this elaborate story. He's a great storyteller,
Speaker 5: a good friend of mine. And he said that they
Speaker 5: were looking for a water line and they witched it.
Speaker 1: But you know, you had to witch this way and
Speaker 1: that way.
Speaker 5: You know how to turn to get angles where everybody
Speaker 5: can't do that right right, And he said, the guy
Speaker 5: finally said, look, it's running right through here exactly. And
Speaker 5: he said, we took a back hole and dug down
Speaker 5: within six inches of where he said it was on
Speaker 5: each side. Then we took a hand deal and dug
Speaker 5: down into it and it was exactly where he said.
Speaker 5: But he he had to make several measurements where that's
Speaker 5: where the expertise.
Speaker 1: Might come in.
Speaker 5: But I don't think it's mental. I think it's a
Speaker 5: physical thing. But who am I?
Speaker 1: Well, Colin Deaton. I appreciated how matter of fact he was.
Speaker 1: He was like, yeah, I'm using all the clues I have.
Speaker 1: There's a water tap there exactly. He goes into the
Speaker 1: house right there and he said it may take me
Speaker 1: a while, but he said, you have to walk perpendicular
Speaker 1: over the line. You might think you just walk down
Speaker 1: the line, but when they cross, if you're on top
Speaker 1: of it, they would just stay cross exactly what happens
Speaker 1: and call me crazy. You know, you walk perpendicular to it, crosses,
Speaker 1: then it opens back up, and so you turn around
Speaker 1: and you go down another ten feet, walk back across
Speaker 1: it and get another data point and get you get
Speaker 1: these data points for where the line is. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that takes skill. That would take skill to really absolutely
Speaker 1: dial in, especially if you had no data points, if
Speaker 1: you didn't know where it was.
Speaker 8: You know, now, I think it's ridiculous that we can
Speaker 8: go to the moon, but we can't.
Speaker 2: Tell you how this works.
Speaker 5: I mean, to me, it works, and not necessarily, like
Speaker 5: I've said, not necessarily it's gonna find anything. It just
Speaker 5: happens that most part of the Earth there's nothing there.
Speaker 5: That's just this normal earth. You know, it's always something
Speaker 5: you need. And so really the only prevalent thing is
Speaker 5: going to be water. So you're gonna find water, and
Speaker 5: a lot of these four things that are mentioned in
Speaker 5: in your little rite up of forces of nature. Some
Speaker 5: are strong, some are weak, and you know you're going
Speaker 5: to get different signals. But hey, it's a it's a
Speaker 5: real deal.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, absolutely, mm hmm.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I think it makes total sense that maybe
Speaker 6: everyone could get a little bit of movement, and there's
Speaker 6: something scientific about that. But then people who really hone
Speaker 6: in and devote their life to understanding stuff would figure
Speaker 6: out how to do it better, more precise get different
Speaker 6: types of water just by sheer experience that you couldn't quantify,
Speaker 6: that you couldn't say. I think about like, there's this
Speaker 6: type of cookie that we make that we make on
Speaker 6: the oven, and when my mom taught me to make it,
Speaker 6: she said, you have to feel it, and she would
Speaker 6: make me come over and like when you'd stir it,
Speaker 6: you would feel what And if you don't do it
Speaker 6: just right, it's going to come out too soft or
Speaker 6: too dry, and you just have to feel it. And
Speaker 6: I've tried different ovens, and every oven you get to
Speaker 6: that point at a different time, because you know, you
Speaker 6: want a recipe that just says that three minutes is
Speaker 6: going to do this for a five minutes, But you
Speaker 6: can't because every oven is different. You turn the heat
Speaker 6: on different in different type of sugar, you're using different
Speaker 6: type of conductors.
Speaker 3: You know, in audio motor effect, well, no difference.
Speaker 6: No, there is a difference. There's a huge difference because
Speaker 6: sometimes it takes sometimes it takes five minutes to get
Speaker 6: to that spot and sometimes it takes three minutes. And
Speaker 6: you just have to know how it feels. And there
Speaker 6: are people who know what it feels like and they
Speaker 6: know how to find how to test it, and how
Speaker 6: to go a little further. But probably everybody could do it.
Speaker 2: Check all recipes for the audio motor.
Speaker 1: Cookie mm hmm. Yeah. Well it's really interesting to me,
Speaker 1: and it's interesting to see how people how people handle it.
Speaker 1: And and I thought it was, Oh, it was so
Speaker 1: funny when I'm with doctor ken Effect like in the
Speaker 1: middle of an interview and literally knock on the door
Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, I'm so sorry, Clay, I forgot
Speaker 1: they were coming. And he takes off his headset, you know,
Speaker 1: like kind of like the interview is like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: well all right, I guess we're done. In walks Sarah
Speaker 1: and uh, doctor Kinnifect says Sarah, this is Clay. He's
Speaker 1: here talking about water witching, and she goes she just
Speaker 1: I mean within seconds, was just like, yeah, I hired
Speaker 1: a water witcher six months ago, and I just was like,
Speaker 1: I wish I could have recorded the actual moment when
Speaker 1: she when she told me that, I just said, you're
Speaker 1: kidding and she's like, oh no, and she was real
Speaker 1: nice and the good she was she she was very
Speaker 1: good at describing and I just said, yeah, she was good.
Speaker 1: Will you sit down with me? And she was like sure.
Speaker 1: They were like two minutes maybe three after meeting her.
Speaker 1: She was sitting in the chair telling me about the
Speaker 1: guys that she paid one hundred and fifty dollars to
Speaker 1: which water for or that she paid them for it,
Speaker 1: and she she she Mark findall, Roger Quinton, and Clay
Speaker 1: Newcomb all have the same idea is probably should go
Speaker 1: ahead and do it, just if you're gonna if you're
Speaker 1: gonna have a well and even statistically, it's not gonna
Speaker 1: hurt you because if in fact, a water witcher cannot
Speaker 1: find underground water any better than random chance, then it's
Speaker 1: not gonna hurt.
Speaker 2: You, right because how's because how's a well driller gonna
Speaker 2: find it?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 2: They don't have any better chance than the water witcher.
Speaker 1: They I mean, okay, would they would? They would have
Speaker 1: a lot of prior knowledge of where to drill well,
Speaker 1: you know, they would they would have known in this
Speaker 1: valley or at this elevation. Typically we drill here or
Speaker 1: here or.
Speaker 6: I guarantee you yeah know that information too. I'm certain
Speaker 6: that water witchers would know that intel maybe because they've
Speaker 6: done it. Yeah, so they've got they have that. That's
Speaker 6: part of it.
Speaker 1: See, there's all levels of water witchers, you know, like Carl,
Speaker 1: the one.
Speaker 6: You would pay, the one you would pay.
Speaker 1: There should be like Carl, Carl told me. I mean,
Speaker 1: in Carl's mind he has well, it's it's I believe him.
Speaker 1: He's never told them to dig a well there and
Speaker 1: then not have found water. They always find water.
Speaker 2: I'd like to see a statistic on how many well
Speaker 2: drillers drill well and don't find water.
Speaker 1: Right, that's the thing, because it could be it's just
Speaker 1: like well, anywhere you drill, if you drill deep enough,
Speaker 1: you're going to find water.
Speaker 2: Typical well around here's what two to three hundred feet.
Speaker 5: I'd say so, and Bear's founded at fourteen, So I
Speaker 5: mean I'm going to bear yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh. One thing.
Speaker 5: I don't know if y'all find this interesting, but I did.
Speaker 5: I had a customer and he was an unusual guy,
Speaker 5: and he did what was called dowsing tell us about
Speaker 5: his well. He kept his Marlboroughs in his T shirt
Speaker 5: sleeve right here. And then he get a six pack
Speaker 5: of beer tied in a T shirt tied to his belt.
Speaker 5: And anyway, he came in my office and he got
Speaker 5: to talking about this dowsing, and of course I'm intrigued
Speaker 5: by it. I don't necessarily believe it, but I'm just
Speaker 5: intrigued by these type people. And I like getting outdoors.
Speaker 5: And I said, if I give you a well, they
Speaker 5: would play a game where they would cut a big
Speaker 5: area of a yard up into blocks, and somebody would
Speaker 5: put a quarter on number forty seven block. Have the
Speaker 5: guy come out of the house. He'd take a string
Speaker 5: with a ball on the end of it and go,
Speaker 5: where is the quarter in this thing? Which kind of
Speaker 5: a ball? It didn't matter, It didn't matter. The one
Speaker 5: time I used it, I used my rope on my
Speaker 5: rain jacket trying to find it an arrow I finally got. Anyway,
Speaker 5: so this thing would take him to that spot, and
Speaker 5: I go, hey, what if I take you out in
Speaker 5: the woods and describe something and you think you can
Speaker 5: find it? He said, absolutely, no question. So I took
Speaker 5: him way out as far as you could go, and
Speaker 5: knew of a very prominent spot a long you know,
Speaker 5: two hours away up a mountain, and he said he
Speaker 5: had never been there. Of course I believe that he had.
Speaker 5: I mean, I just don't believe this. And so we
Speaker 5: get out of the truck and he said, where is
Speaker 5: the blank this object that I knew was there? And
Speaker 5: he took his little dowser out and it got the swinging,
Speaker 5: and we took off up the mountain and we'd go
Speaker 5: a little ways and he'd get us over here. When
Speaker 5: we finally got to the top of the mountain, it
Speaker 5: was just almost straight up. You had to get on
Speaker 5: all fours. And when we looked over the top of
Speaker 5: the mountain, just like this, it was flat as a pan. Okay,
Speaker 5: there was, I mean it was within fifty yards of
Speaker 5: where we.
Speaker 1: Came up on the mountain.
Speaker 5: What's the it, Well, I'd rather not say.
Speaker 1: Oh it's a big yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh it's a it's a like a location like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Okay, you can say it was a cemetery.
Speaker 5: Okay, cemetery okay, way out, no roads to it. It's
Speaker 5: just isolated up.
Speaker 3: There a long ways away.
Speaker 2: Dad's told I thought you meant like there was an
Speaker 2: object you had Well.
Speaker 5: You know, I just didn't want to to people who
Speaker 5: know the area.
Speaker 2: I didn't.
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, it's a it's it's a cemetery.
Speaker 2: In the middle of the woods.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, with that old old cemetery that no, there's
Speaker 1: no longer any access to. You got to walk into
Speaker 1: it and uh it that's told me that story. I
Speaker 1: remember when that happened.
Speaker 5: It was pretty shocking, pretty shocking. I mean we were
Speaker 5: smoking and drinking all the way up he was, I
Speaker 5: mean he was on the and.
Speaker 1: They're like that. You just have to either say it's
Speaker 1: kind of like what doctor Kidifex said, Uh, the guy's
Speaker 1: either a fraud or well, this has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with physics. This is to me something not even really related.
Speaker 1: It can't I just can't be real. Yeah, dowsing to me,
Speaker 1: if you're like using your your mind to ask questions
Speaker 1: to an object, that's like pretty weird. That's that's uh,
Speaker 1: that's how it bounds for me. But but I that's
Speaker 1: what people do. And that's where all this all gets
Speaker 1: so convoluted is because water witching, dowsing all, you know,
Speaker 1: using a green stick to find underground water, like, all
Speaker 1: this stuff kind of gets mixed into like the same
Speaker 1: bucket and then becomes very confusing. And then when you
Speaker 1: start reading about water witching and stuff. Back in the day,
Speaker 1: I didn't even put it on the podcast because it
Speaker 1: was just a little too far out of bounds. They
Speaker 1: would use witching sticks to like tell if somebody had
Speaker 1: character or not, or to tell if they lied. They
Speaker 1: would be like did you lie? And you'd be like, no,
Speaker 1: I didn't lie, and you go, well, let's get the
Speaker 1: witching sticks. And if they crossed the guy was a liar,
Speaker 1: you know, and they'd kill him. They would ask they
Speaker 1: would use it as hard Yeah. So there's there's just
Speaker 1: this rabbit hole that's really deep. And I don't believe
Speaker 1: that sticks can determine human character and tell you if
Speaker 1: someone lied or not. My only question is what makes
Speaker 1: the sticks move? It was the only question that I
Speaker 1: was seeking to answer from this what makes the sticks move?
Speaker 5: And the conclusion is huhm, one of those four things.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's mental physics.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Dad thinks it's physics.
Speaker 2: It's got to be, got to be.
Speaker 1: I want to I really wanted to talk to an
Speaker 1: expert on the audio motor technique that will go with
Speaker 1: me to Carl Holt's house and watch his hands and
Speaker 1: just explain to me the physics of Well. I just
Speaker 1: don't think I just don't think Carl Holt was trying
Speaker 1: to trick me.
Speaker 6: I definitely think you might have some self professed experts
Speaker 6: on the IDEO motor movement on your Instagram right now.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, you got a couple guys who would volunteer.
Speaker 6: They've started, they've already started the analysis.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and I knew that I signed up for that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: signed up for it. But hey, these are the questions
Speaker 1: that make, uh, make life fun, and it's fun to
Speaker 1: just explore these things and uh.
Speaker 3: And and ask, you know, ask hard questions.
Speaker 1: I was like, bearr. I never even thought much about
Speaker 1: it until I became an adult and I was like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this is unusual. And then it's like,
Speaker 1: is this normal to know how to do this? Is
Speaker 1: this across the country? So interesting questions. But humans are
Speaker 1: inherently fallible and gullible. I will say that, in fact,
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff happens that's not real that we
Speaker 1: think is real.
Speaker 3: It's true.
Speaker 6: And I also think that humans are too skeptical. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I think it goes both ways.
Speaker 1: I said, something. The other day. I was writing something
Speaker 1: and I wrote it. I said that modernity has given
Speaker 1: us so much. Modernity just being technology and all the
Speaker 1: incredible things and knowledge that we have access to today
Speaker 1: that no humans have ever had access to. I mean,
Speaker 1: the human experience that we live is far beyond the
Speaker 1: wildest imagination of people from the Stone Age or even
Speaker 1: people three hundred years ago. Did you know that there
Speaker 1: were I'm going to get back to the quote. They
Speaker 1: believe that there have been about one hundred billion Homo
Speaker 1: sapiens that have lived on planet Earth since the dawn
Speaker 1: of time, about a one hundred billion. Today there's about
Speaker 1: eight billion, so there's about ninety two billion Homo sapiens
Speaker 1: behind us that have died. And what we live today,
Speaker 1: by driving cars, by having electricity, by having running water
Speaker 1: in our house, by being able to communicate via cell phone,
Speaker 1: by you know, being able to have computers and internet,
Speaker 1: watch digital imagery on a screen, is something that a
Speaker 1: minuscule like this is a new human experiment. And what
Speaker 1: I said was modernity has given us so many things,
Speaker 1: which much of it good, But we have no idea
Speaker 1: what we lost, what had? What has all the technology
Speaker 1: and all the comfort and all the full belly all
Speaker 1: the time, not having to navigate the landscape. Yeap, what
Speaker 1: has that taken from us? And that we have no idea?
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, I agree.
Speaker 1: I was gonna I was gonna say one more thing.
Speaker 1: When we were talking about you were talking about kind
Speaker 1: of unexplainable things that people do that are like beyond rationality.
Speaker 1: This this book Arctic Dreams by Barry Lopez. It was
Speaker 1: talking about when the Europeans first interfaced with the Inuit
Speaker 1: people in the Arctic, and they were when they talked
Speaker 1: to the Indian people, they were they didn't think they
Speaker 1: understood direction because the way that the Inuits said directions
Speaker 1: and described the landscape was way different than the Europeans.
Speaker 1: It was like this collision of two thinking systems and
Speaker 1: in two ways to view the earth. But they noted
Speaker 1: the unreal navigational system that the Inuits had, and there
Speaker 1: were accounts of you know, guys on sea ice walking
Speaker 1: in the dark in snowstorms.
Speaker 3: Like straight back to their villages.
Speaker 1: They can imagine that the sea ice out there is
Speaker 1: just like flat, like there's there's no there's no topography
Speaker 1: because it's ice, and you would go they would you know.
Speaker 1: I don't remember the exact circumstance, but basically they would
Speaker 1: be miles and miles out on sea ice, and these
Speaker 1: inuits would be like homestea, and I mean it was
Speaker 1: like a white out in the dark.
Speaker 3: You would die if you had to stay out there,
Speaker 3: and they could just walk home. It's like, what's governing
Speaker 3: that so interesting?
Speaker 5: A dog can do that? Animals do that. We've lost
Speaker 5: those skills. We don't need them. I don't even want
Speaker 5: to be able to do that. I don't need that.
Speaker 5: I got a phone, I got a compass, you know
Speaker 5: what I mean. I don't want to waste my brain
Speaker 5: power on something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you throw a.
Speaker 5: Dog out ten miles from your house and he'll be
Speaker 5: at He'll be at the breakfast table the next morning
Speaker 5: looking for a biscuit.
Speaker 1: Very good boy.
Speaker 5: We've thrown our cats out four or five times that
Speaker 5: I remember coming back.
Speaker 2: I remember taking some friends of ours took a cat
Speaker 2: out to a farm that they lived in town, and
Speaker 2: it was like thirteen miles and the next morning that
Speaker 2: cat was home. Really yeah, and even in the middle
Speaker 2: of town.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 5: Wow, those are skills that we used to have and
Speaker 5: we've lost and I think it's very good to lose them.
Speaker 5: So you think it's good to lose I think it
Speaker 5: is because we've got more capacity to do other things
Speaker 5: that are more important, you know, Like I say, why
Speaker 5: do I need to walk cross eyes for thirteen miles
Speaker 5: to get home? I don't. I mean, I mean, you
Speaker 5: know what I'm.
Speaker 1: Saying around here.
Speaker 5: I gotta work on my handicap, I mean really know anything.
Speaker 5: But I mean, why waste time when something is useless?
Speaker 5: I mean, I got, I got it all right here.
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna I'm not gonna take up my mental
Speaker 5: amount of brain power on something that's not gonna do
Speaker 5: any good.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, what you're described, I think he's hyperbolically speaking
Speaker 1: in a way, like exaggerating to make a point. That's
Speaker 1: the way your body in biology has functioned. Like basically,
Speaker 1: essentially your brain has decided that that's true. Because we
Speaker 1: don't have this incredible homing instinct just naturally.
Speaker 3: It has to be developed.
Speaker 1: It probably is even lost generationally, you know, over time.
Speaker 1: I mean it's possible, way in deep time a child
Speaker 1: was born and they just had it more than they
Speaker 1: have it today.
Speaker 5: I don't know, well, people that I get that I've
Speaker 5: been with, and y'all have seen the same thing. You
Speaker 5: can go out in the woods with one particular person
Speaker 5: and you go, Okay, it's time to go back to
Speaker 5: the truck. And I mean, I've done it with a
Speaker 5: guy one time, dragging a deer out and when we
Speaker 5: started to take off, he went that way and I
Speaker 5: went this way. You remember that? Yeah, Yeah, some people
Speaker 5: still have some of that it a stronger degree than others.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 5: And I don't have it. I mean, I'm I'm as
Speaker 5: lost as a goose. You throw me out in the woods,
Speaker 5: but I do know to look at moss on the
Speaker 5: north side of the tree, and it's got me out
Speaker 5: of the woods a couple of times doing that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I think that there's some correlation to
Speaker 1: all that with potentially, you know, this water witch and stuff.
Speaker 1: Potentially like there's there's something nuanced in it. Even doctor
Speaker 1: ken Effect said that, he said it may not work
Speaker 1: in a lab because if there's too many variables and
Speaker 1: we really don't know what we're studying, or perhaps it's
Speaker 1: incredibly nuanced. And uh. And I think I think if
Speaker 1: we could go back in time to a Native American
Speaker 1: from a thousand years ago and just pile around with
Speaker 1: them for a couple of days.
Speaker 3: I think we'd be.
Speaker 1: Shocked at the stuff that they could do, not not physically,
Speaker 1: like running and jumping and climbing trees, I mean like,
Speaker 1: but like, I think they would just have an instinctual
Speaker 1: knowledge of the land that would far sur pass I mean,
Speaker 1: undoubtedly they would, but I think some of it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be perceived by physics. I think some of it would
Speaker 1: be just like that's what makes us human? Is that
Speaker 1: where we're different than Yeah, interesting stuff, bare thoughts, final thoughts,
Speaker 1: no final thoughts. No you if you.
Speaker 3: Drill well you ever have land, you get you wal
Speaker 3: you're witching it.
Speaker 1: I'll be witching it for sure.
Speaker 2: You'll be witching it yourself or your call someone.
Speaker 6: Depends on how.
Speaker 3: Wrong answer.
Speaker 1: You get your old dad to do it, pars, he
Speaker 1: can do it. We'll get Carl Holt to do it.
Speaker 1: He'll do it. He'll do it for free, that's right. Well,
Speaker 1: he lives pretty a little little a piece from here.
Speaker 2: If they need to charge mileage, I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, he actually said to me that he he
Speaker 1: didn't mind getting a little gas money. I like you.
Speaker 5: I like, I like that.
Speaker 1: Hey do you see this hat right here?
Speaker 2: It's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: This is a massy oak bear grease hat we've got.
Speaker 1: They're they're for selling the media to your website.
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about arm wrestling for it here in a second.
Speaker 6: It'll be fun.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's O school cameo.
Speaker 1: Yeah, mosty Oak, most Yoak bottom Land. Yep. All right,
Speaker 1: thank you guys for listening, and as always, kicks a
Speaker 1: wild Places Wild. That's my ars love