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Speaker 1: Body backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. By my calculation, I'd.

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Speaker 2: Have to say that if he gave me a choice

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Speaker 2: between a former homicide detective or a registered nurse, I

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Speaker 2: would take the registered nurse every day of the week

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Speaker 2: and twice on Sunday to hire them as an investigator

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Speaker 2: for the Medical Examiner's office, that is, if I was

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Speaker 2: one to do in the hiring. And this is why nurses,

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Speaker 2: I think, are natural investigators. Not to say that homa

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Speaker 2: side detectives are not good investigators. It's just that in

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Speaker 2: my world, the world of medical legal death investigation, our

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Speaker 2: spectrum is a bit more broad than the typical homicide

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Speaker 2: investigation that might occur out on the street. And the

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Speaker 2: reason that nurses are so good at what they do

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Speaker 2: is that they have to diagnose individuals based upon histories,

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Speaker 2: based upon what their patient is telling them and also

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Speaker 2: what they observe, either in triage, maybe back in the

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Speaker 2: emergency room, or maybe if they're up on a med

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Speaker 2: search floor and they're taking a look at a patient. Today,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about two nurses. One who was

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Speaker 2: a nurse a nestheesist in another that he was married

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Speaker 2: to is a homicide victim. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 2: this is bodybacked Dave. Over the years, I've spent a

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Speaker 2: lot of time in hospitals working. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 2: as a college student, I'd have to say I was

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Speaker 2: very blessed fortunate to have the opportunity to work in

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Speaker 2: a general hospital and this is why it prepared me

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Speaker 2: to become the medical legal death investigator that I wound

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Speaker 2: up being. And I think on many accounts, I did

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Speaker 2: a good job in my profession as a medical legal

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Speaker 2: death investigator, and it can all be tied by to

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Speaker 2: those experiences I had in the hospital as a young

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Speaker 2: man and the best instructors that I ever had. First off,

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Speaker 2: here here's how here's how I listed. The best classroom

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Speaker 2: I've ever been in was the Morgue. The best instructors

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Speaker 2: I ever had were nurses and it's it's part of

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Speaker 2: the world that they dwell in. And with today's case,

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Speaker 2: we've we've were surrounded by medical professionals in this case,

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Speaker 2: and also how people are treated and what to look for,

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Speaker 2: because some of these things can be very very subtle.

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Speaker 3: Joe, you mentioned nursing and hoel payot is a nurse

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Speaker 3: anestetus or an assessitus nurse.

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Speaker 2: Right, a nurse, nurse, a nesthessist Okay, yes.

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Speaker 3: And when he calls nine one one and is seeking

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Speaker 3: help because it's his wife and his nine one call,

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Speaker 3: he says his wife has taken some prescription pills. She's

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Speaker 3: not breathing. The first responder that shows up as a

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Speaker 3: police officer, and I actually have watched his watched his

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Speaker 3: bodycam footage, yep, because he says that when he gets there,

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Speaker 3: you know, arrives at the front door, and Joel Payot,

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Speaker 3: the husband here, he turns around and just goes right

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Speaker 3: up the stairs. Police officer is barely ask any questions.

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Speaker 3: He's following him.

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Speaker 2: Can I can I stop you right there? Because I

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Speaker 2: watched that same video it's the cam the canvass right.

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Speaker 2: I got to tell you my guts got a little

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Speaker 2: twisted there because I was and I know it's ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: I was sitting there watching it, and I I was

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Speaker 2: in fear for the officer, right, because he said the

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Speaker 2: officer said that all he could see he saw he

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Speaker 2: saw the shadow, his shadow, and it disappeared up the staircase.

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Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, oh lord, you know, because these guys,

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Speaker 2: you know, and it's it's rot, I know, but you know,

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Speaker 2: the most dangerous situations the police officer goes into, or domestics,

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Speaker 2: and and anything under a roof, as far as I'm concerned,

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Speaker 2: is a domestic right. So you can get it sorted out,

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Speaker 2: you know. And so when he said, he said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he said, and I just saw his shadow going up

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Speaker 2: the staircase, and I was thinking, oh lord, you think

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Speaker 2: about these poor police officers out there and what they

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Speaker 2: have to endure and what they're relying upon in their senses.

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Speaker 2: But you know, for this young police officer, he gets

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Speaker 2: up there and he's faced with something that a lot

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Speaker 2: of cops are faced with, somebody that's obviously in cardiac arrest.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't necessarily mean that there's blood everywhere or anything

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Speaker 2: like that.

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Speaker 3: He does go right up the stairs behind hoel Payatt

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Speaker 3: And I did the same thing as you did. It

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Speaker 3: was a gutkick because I thought, what is going through

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Speaker 3: his brain right now? What am I walking into? But

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Speaker 3: fairly quickly, he's already put a little bit at ease

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Speaker 3: because he notices that the person he's dealing with is

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Speaker 3: wearing scrubs.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: And that immediately puts him on his heels a little bit.

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Speaker 3: And when he gets up there, he has been told

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Speaker 3: by the nine one one communication that the CPR has

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Speaker 3: been taking place, and he's looking at this medical professional

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Speaker 3: in front of him, and he's obviously more experienced. He's

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Speaker 3: further up along the line of healthcare than I am.

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Speaker 3: That's what the officer is saying. I expect he'll want

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Speaker 3: to continue with CPR, but he doesn't. He relinquishes it,

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Speaker 3: turns it over to this police officer to continue CPR.

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Speaker 3: That was the first red flag, but then there are

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Speaker 3: other red flags that happened after that. And as we

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Speaker 3: get into this story, you realize this is a couple

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Speaker 3: that's been married ten years. They are not currently living together.

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Speaker 3: Hoel Payott and his wife, Maria Munoz. They have two children,

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Speaker 3: two little ones, and they are separated. Hoel Payot, the husband,

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Speaker 3: is actually living with his girlfriend of the last two years,

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Speaker 3: a nurse he works with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and if it couldn't get any more complicated, Maria,

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Speaker 2: who is when the police officer shows up up there

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Speaker 2: and holl is over her and he's doing chess compressions

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Speaker 2: as he's watching this kind of unfold before him, unknown

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Speaker 2: to the officer. Obviously at that moment. Tom Maria is

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Speaker 2: a nurse. She's not a nurse in the US. They

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Speaker 2: met ten years prior in Puerto Rico at that point

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Speaker 2: in time, and you know, by all accounts, they fell

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Speaker 2: in love. They wound up, you know, getting hitched, and

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Speaker 2: did have kids. But they've been married for a decade now,

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Speaker 2: and you know, as it turns out, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: he was he was living fast man, and you know,

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Speaker 2: with the position that he's in. And here here's what

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Speaker 2: many people don't understand if you deal as a nurse

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Speaker 2: in anesthesiology, which and kind of let me break this

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Speaker 2: down for people that don't understand, because this really plays

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Speaker 2: into the story. If if you don't understand, because if

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Speaker 2: you've ever gone into into a a surgical situation, maybe

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Speaker 2: it's a day surgery, or maybe maybe you're gonna, you know,

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Speaker 2: really go through major surgery, you're gonna have people from

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Speaker 2: the antesthesiology department that are gonna come out and visit

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Speaker 2: you before you go to surgery. All right, Generally it'll

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Speaker 2: be a nurse and then maybe the anesthesiologist who is

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Speaker 2: the physician will show up. So this is kind of

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Speaker 2: how it breaks down. You've got a physician who is

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Speaker 2: an antesthesiologist. They're not the surgeon, but they are the

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Speaker 2: people that are going to handle all of your anesthesia

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Speaker 2: while you're under and they're responsible for it. Well, if

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Speaker 2: you've got like a major surgery going on, say, for instance,

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Speaker 2: it's I don't know, let's just pick one. Let's say

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Speaker 2: it's a corediac bypass surgery, and it's gonna be kind

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Speaker 2: of detailed, it'll take a little while. You might have

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Speaker 2: the doctor on the stool as they say, in there

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Speaker 2: that's monitoring everything. The antesthesiologist. However, there might be other

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Speaker 2: lesser surgery. And look, no surgery is lesser to anybody

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Speaker 2: that's having the surgery, right, But you know, a bypass

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Speaker 2: surgery is not same as say, for instance, a knee

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Speaker 2: replacement or you know, something like that, or having a

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Speaker 2: boil removed. You might have the nurse who works under

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Speaker 2: the antithesiologist there, you know, handling that on site with

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Speaker 2: the surgeon in the room. And so you might have

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Speaker 2: multiple surgeries going on in multiple surgical suites, and the

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Speaker 2: antesthesiologist acts almost like an umbrella where they're in charge

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Speaker 2: of all of these these nurses, and they might if

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Speaker 2: if they're workloaded and too heavy, they might go between

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Speaker 2: surgical tables all right, and just kind of monitor things.

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Speaker 2: And so but with that, with the training that Oel

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Speaker 2: would have have had to go to, this is my point.

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Speaker 2: I know, I'm kind of going a long way around

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Speaker 2: the board of the barn with this, But when you

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Speaker 2: get to this level in nurse and you've gone through

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Speaker 2: the training he's gone through, Dude, you're making more than

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Speaker 2: an entry level are in at this point in time,

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Speaker 2: you're knocking down big bucks. And he was and he

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Speaker 2: had bought, like himself, a very nice vehicle. He had

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Speaker 2: bought his wife a very nice vehicle. He was living

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Speaker 2: large and speaking a large, as we're going to find out,

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Speaker 2: there was something else that was making well rather large.

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Speaker 2: And he had apparently developed a dependency, a need, a

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you can call it an addiction,

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Speaker 2: but he had gotten into using steroids, and of course

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Speaker 2: that throws a wrench into everything else, the dynamic of

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Speaker 2: the family because he up to that point, he's supposed

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Speaker 2: to be this fantastic husband, father, family guy, this sort

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Speaker 2: of thing, going on trips with his wife. You know,

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Speaker 2: he's taking care of them, all these sorts of very

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Speaker 2: supportive and isn't it amazing You begin to see how

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Speaker 2: he changes over a period of time, all the way

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Speaker 2: up to the point where I think the police are

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Speaker 2: getting rather suspicious.

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Speaker 3: They got suspicious right away, Joe, because first things first,

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Speaker 3: you have a man hoel payot. He calls nine one one.

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Speaker 3: My wife is unconscious. I'm doing CPR, send help. When

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Speaker 3: they arrive, he has sweated through his scrubs. He's not

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Speaker 3: answering questions fully, He's darting around and around. He seems

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Speaker 3: like he's on something. That's what the first officer on

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Speaker 3: scene and then the detective that shows up about thirty

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Speaker 3: minutes later. He then, when they say well what did

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Speaker 3: he claims that she took some pills. That's what he

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Speaker 3: tells from the early She's tried to kill herself, took pills.

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Speaker 3: What did she take? And I think he came up

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Speaker 3: with klonasvant, notavan. Yes, thank you. And when the officer says, well,

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Speaker 3: where are they? Because when according to this police officer,

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Speaker 3: the first one on the scene, he said that normally

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Speaker 3: when somebody takes an overdose of pills, you find the

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Speaker 3: pill bottle nearby. In this particular case, how weel paya

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Speaker 3: it has to go into the restroom and gets up

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Speaker 3: in the medicine cabinet and looks around for a pill

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Speaker 3: bottle and then comes back with it. Here's the pills

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Speaker 3: she took. And that was another red flag. So immediately

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Speaker 3: you've got a couple of red flags that are already

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Speaker 3: going on, plus the way he's acting and everything else,

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Speaker 3: and then you know he hits them with yeah this,

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Speaker 3: you know, we're not actually living together anymore. We were

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Speaker 3: having a heart to heart discussion. I've been living with

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Speaker 3: my girlfriend and by the way, we had a fight

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Speaker 3: a couple of nights ago, and yes, while we were

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Speaker 3: having this argument, I called her all these horrible names

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Speaker 3: that a lot of witnesses heard. I also used my

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Speaker 3: hand and bashed in her windshield. There's your steroids for you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so you know, are you dealing with the

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Speaker 2: case of roid Rachel. Let me throw one more thing

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Speaker 2: in about the clinaz which is kind of fascinating. First off,

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Speaker 2: Klonaza PAM is a medication that is used for anxiety primarily.

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Speaker 2: Some people actually use it not just for anxiety, but

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Speaker 2: they'll also use it use it to aid them with sleep.

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Speaker 2: All right, they might if their tablets are scored, which

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Speaker 2: I think if I remember correctly the klines PAMs I

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Speaker 2: have seen out on scenes, they are scored, which means

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Speaker 2: they have the groove cut in them. You can break

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Speaker 2: them in half, and you know, the individual can take

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Speaker 2: half of one perhaps and they aid in sleep. But

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Speaker 2: it's it's meant to knock down anxiety, that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: Here's the thing when when he showed these tablets to

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Speaker 2: the cop, guess whose name was on it? It wasn't

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Speaker 2: her name, it was it was his name that was

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Speaker 2: on these things. And he puts them on the floor

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Speaker 2: adjacent to her body as she's laying there, and they

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Speaker 2: go back to compressions. And here here's the fascinating thing.

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Speaker 2: On the cam itself. You can see him at one

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Speaker 2: point in time reach over, grab that vial and stick

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Speaker 2: it into the pocket of his scrubturet. The cop actually

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Speaker 2: had to call to him and say, hey, we're and

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Speaker 2: you can hear the cop you know on his recording it'say,

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Speaker 2: where are those pills? And I know that they were here.

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Speaker 2: He had to call down to Hell and say, hey,

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Speaker 2: where are those tablets? You know where are they? And

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Speaker 2: he goes up back up the staircase, looks at the

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Speaker 2: police officer and literally Dave tosses him to them and says,

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Speaker 2: here they are, you know. And it's at that point

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Speaker 2: in time. Can you imagine you're the cop and you're

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Speaker 2: sitting there and you're thinking, Okay, this is this is

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Speaker 2: pretty significant evidence of what has happened here. Doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 2: mean there's a homicide. It's just like, this is demonstrative

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Speaker 2: of an individual that may or may not have taken drugs,

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Speaker 2: have taken an OD, but yet he's going to take

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Speaker 2: the pills with him when he exits from here. And

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Speaker 2: it was already weird anyway, because you know that the

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Speaker 2: police officer was absolutely correct in his assessment of most

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Speaker 2: ods we don't in when it comes to taking one's

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Speaker 2: own life. I think a lot of people believe that

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Speaker 2: in the medical legal field, we handle lots of intentional overdoses.

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Speaker 2: In my experience, no, compared to firearms, primarily in hanging,

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Speaker 2: ODS are a distant third at best. All right, it's

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Speaker 2: just you handle them, but you don't handle them with

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Speaker 2: great frequency. But when you do handle them, you notice

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Speaker 2: like there is an open vial. Generally it's open and

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Speaker 2: it's empty. That's a a jason to the body. And

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Speaker 2: here's the other thing that comes into play here. Most

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Speaker 2: of the time when you have an OD you're going

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Speaker 2: to have a combination of other things. You'll have it

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Speaker 2: intermingled with other drugs, and there might even be alcohol.

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Speaker 2: But in this case, none of these existed adjacent to

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Speaker 2: the body. When you work in the medical field, I

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Speaker 2: found that you never know what you're going to bring

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Speaker 2: home with you because many times, if you're working at

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Speaker 2: a very high paced environment, you know, like I did

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Speaker 2: when I was a young man, you put stuff in

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Speaker 2: your pockets and you forget about it. You're not doing

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Speaker 2: anything malicious. I get sidetracked all the time, and I'll

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Speaker 2: put something in my pocket and I walk home. And

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Speaker 2: in the medical field you put different things in your

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Speaker 2: pocket though, particularly if you you know, maybe you pull

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Speaker 2: the cap off of a needle, that cap might go

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Speaker 2: into your pocket. Or I've come home on my scrubs

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Speaker 2: where I've actually you know, because I worked in the

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Speaker 2: Morgue for so long as a path assistant, I would

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Speaker 2: write all over my scrubs. I'd write things on my pants, legs,

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Speaker 2: I'd have tape on me. You know, you be peel

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Speaker 2: tape off, you stick it on your scrubs to remember things.

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Speaker 2: But one thing that you should never come home with, Dave,

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Speaker 2: are hospital grade trugs. That's not something that that is

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Speaker 2: a common practice. It has been done over the years

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Speaker 2: and people there are many people unfortunately that are uh

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Speaker 2: in therapeutic practice out there that become thieves and they steal.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: But there's there's a very particular accounting that goes on

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Speaker 2: with with pharmaceuticals inside of hospitals, you know, and uh

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Speaker 2: we begin to think about things like drug carts, you know,

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Speaker 2: because they've got they've got drugs on board, or there's

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Speaker 2: a real connectivity with the uh, the pharmacy that's inside

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Speaker 2: the hospital. People don't realize that each each hospital has

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Speaker 2: a pharmacy that's in house that you know, every floor

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Speaker 2: orders from. And so there's a real chain just like

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Speaker 2: we have in forensic science. There's a real chain of

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Speaker 2: evidence or connectivity with all of these orders and things

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Speaker 2: along the way. And uh, you in in this particular case,

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Speaker 2: drugs do come into play, and they are drugs. They

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Speaker 2: are drugs that are associated unfortunately with anesthesiology.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to take you back to the scene. Joe.

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Speaker 3: All right, we have first responder. It's the middle of

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Speaker 3: the night. Get a nine one one call. A husband says,

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Speaker 3: my wife is I can't get her up. She's having

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Speaker 3: cardiac arrest. Whatever it is. CPR is not working. Send help.

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Speaker 3: They show up. She's dead now, police immediately. And I

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Speaker 3: don't know this because I've never been on the scene

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Speaker 3: as you have. And I'm curious because the first officer

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Speaker 3: on scene, he has his bodycam and you and I

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Speaker 3: have both watched that, and we saw what he saw

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Speaker 3: and what worried him from the demeanor of Payot. Hoel Payot,

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Speaker 3: the husband, he the officer has to take over CPR

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Speaker 3: from this medical professional, which is odd enough. You would

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Speaker 3: think of it your wife, even if you are separated.

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Speaker 3: You're trying to save her life. You would want the

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Speaker 3: best person to do this, the medical professional, to continue

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Speaker 3: doing CPR. But then when the detective shows up thirty

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Speaker 3: minutes later, she's already been declared dead. Hoel Payot is sweaty,

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Speaker 3: he is not answering questions fully, and the detective arrives

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Speaker 3: and says, hey, what's going on? You know he's asking

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Speaker 3: the man, who is there? You have a dead woman.

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Speaker 3: She's thirty one, mother of two. She's dead, she's in

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Speaker 3: good health, she wasn't hit by a car. What happened?

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Speaker 3: What's going on? And hoel payot answers. I live a

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Speaker 3: very private life and those questions are something I don't

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Speaker 3: want coming out. How is that an answer that anyone

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Speaker 3: can accept when you have your dead wife on the ground.

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Speaker 2: For me, if as from an investigative standpoint, if I

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Speaker 2: have a statement that is going to be thrown my

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Speaker 2: way similar to that on any level whatsoever, guess what

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Speaker 2: it's going to compel me to do. Dig deeper, baby,

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Speaker 2: That's that's where I'm going. If your life is an

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Speaker 2: open book, first off, let's just let me frame this correctly,

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Speaker 2: because not everything is everybody's business. Obviously. You know, I

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Speaker 2: like being private. I like having my privacy. But we're

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Speaker 2: talking about your dead wife, right, okay.

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Speaker 3: And you're the one on top of her. You're the

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Speaker 3: one that called nine to one one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're the finder. You are the finder. You discover her.

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Speaker 2: And he had alluded to the fact that they had

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Speaker 2: had relations, they had had sex, and he had taken

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Speaker 2: a shower. Uh, so you know you're going down this road. Dude,

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Speaker 2: you're the medical professional. And not only are you a

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Speaker 2: medical professional, you're you're very high end, all right. I

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Speaker 2: mean you're training as it applies to not sustaining life,

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Speaker 2: but saving life. Particularly because he he would not have

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Speaker 2: been skilled not just in the in in pharmacology as

337
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Speaker 2: it applies to anesthesiology. He's also highly skilled in what's

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Speaker 2: what's called uh a CLS, which is advanced cardiac life support, which.

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Speaker 3: Is wow, if you wait a minute, I didn't know

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Speaker 3: that I used that a CLS. I guess that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you if you were going to run a code,

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Speaker 2: this is one of the guys you would probably want

343
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Speaker 2: around uh that might be assisting and any any of

344
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Speaker 2: these people that work in this environment. I'm not saying

345
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Speaker 2: every single one of them, but you would want a

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Speaker 2: guy with this You would want this guy on the team.

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Speaker 2: So it even strikes me as.

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Speaker 3: This guy's got a cape in his locker at well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly that that he he has this level

350
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Speaker 2: of training here and you know, the police officer, he

351
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Speaker 2: just kind of steps into the middle. Can you imagine

352
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 2: how surreal this is? He just kind of steps into

353
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Speaker 2: the middle of it. But let me tell you how.

354
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Speaker 2: I hope this. I hope this is because you know,

355
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Speaker 2: the officer that we're talking about is he's a beat officer.

356
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Speaker 2: He's a guy with a vest cam on our right,

357
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Speaker 2: he rolls to the scene. I hope this guy. I

358
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Speaker 2: hope he becomes a detective someday. And this is why

359
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 2: because one of the things he noticed. One of the

360
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Speaker 2: things he noticed is that when he looked down at her,

361
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Speaker 2: he and his colleagues actually made note of the fact

362
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Speaker 2: that she had what we refer to as kind of

363
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Speaker 2: a focal area of hemorrhage in the crook of her

364
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Speaker 2: right arm, which in and of itself is quite interesting

365
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Speaker 2: because the crook of your arm, that that area where

366
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Speaker 2: your elbow bends. And right now we're we're talking about

367
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Speaker 2: if you take your palms, everybody that's listening to me,

368
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 2: take your hands, palms up, okay, and if you're looking

369
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Speaker 2: down at the crook of your arms, these these are

370
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Speaker 2: called the ant cubital fossa. And and that's that's the

371
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 2: term that you use for them. It's the crook, all right,

372
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 2: ten dollars word for the ten dollar words for the

373
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 2: crook of the arm. But what do we do there

374
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Speaker 2: in medicine or what do medical professionals do, Well, that's

375
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 2: where they start IV's right right, you know, that's if

376
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Speaker 2: they're going to put a line in you, that's where

377
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 2: they're going to go. They might go in the back

378
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 2: of the hand, but traditionally, you know, they're going to

379
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: apply this right there. And they look down and they

380
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 2: saw they saw this little focal area of hemorrhage, which

381
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 2: is fascinating in that there was no evidence that that

382
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: the EMTs had tried to start a line there. That

383
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 2: means that it was started somewhere else. And the fact

384
00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: that there's hemorrhage Dave is an indication that this is

385
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: an anti mortem event, So it's happening before she dies,

386
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 2: and this is in her right the right aspect, And

387
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: we do all kinds of interesting things with these. If

388
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 2: I suspect I'll give you, for instance, if I suspect

389
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Speaker 2: that I'm dealing with an IVY drug overdose or you know,

390
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 2: somebody that's injecting particularly into the arm or the leg.

391
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: And I may have mentioned this before, but what I

392
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: will do is I'll wrap my hands. Let's just say

393
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 2: it's the arm I'm gonna wrap my hands around the

394
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 2: decedent's upper arm up around the bysep as tightly as

395
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 2: I can, and I'm going to run my hand down

396
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 2: the length of their arm, almost like you're milking a cow.

397
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Speaker 2: And as I'm doing this, I'm looking down at the

398
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 2: exposed surface of the arm. We really do this in

399
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 2: the morgue. You look down at the exposed surface and

400
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 2: guess what if there is a hole in the arm,

401
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 2: we call them npw's. It They actually are called npw's,

402
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: which is a needle puncture wound, and that's how they're

403
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: written up in the in the autopsy report. As you

404
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 2: begin to kind of slowly go down the arm, if

405
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 2: there are needle puncture ones there, guess what they're going

406
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 2: to present with little bitty blood droplets that will issue

407
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 2: forth out of the body, which is it was the

408
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,959
Speaker 2: first time this was demonstrated to me was by an

409
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 2: old friends of pathologist. He said, this is the easiest

410
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 2: way to tell if you're dealing with an IVY drug abuser.

411
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 2: You want to and he referred to it as milking

412
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 2: the arm. He said, you want to milk the arm.

413
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: You go down the arm and you need to check

414
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 2: both both surfaces of the arm. You're going to check

415
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 2: the dorsum of the arm, and you're going to check

416
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 2: the palmer what he referred to as the palmer aspect

417
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: palm up justice. And here in this case, they actually

418
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 2: had that they had that little focal area of hemorrhage

419
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 2: that gave an indication that something had occurred. She had

420
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 2: had something introduced into that soft tissue to leave behind

421
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 2: that little area that bled in the indwelling tissue.

422
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 3: Now, there were some things that came out right there

423
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 3: on the scene. You mentioned how Officer de la Cruz

424
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 3: noticed this. He's a beat officer with the cam car,

425
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 3: you know, the chess cam going on. And the detective

426
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 3: arrives twenty thirty minutes into this, and the detective does

427
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 3: talk to Jel Payot on scene. Payott tells police that

428
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 3: he had moved out and was living with his girlfriend.

429
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,479
Speaker 3: He says that he was at home to talk to

430
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 3: Munos about their marriage. He tells he says that Munos

431
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 3: took the pills at some point after they had talked.

432
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 3: He says that there were medical items that were found

433
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 3: around the home and they're his, Okay, he does claim

434
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 3: now the things that they found. Let's see, on seeing

435
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 3: they found a needle catheter on the stairs. They've got

436
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 3: two small children, and the police are wondering, why would

437
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 3: you have a needle catheter on the stairs with two

438
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 3: small children running about. They also found besides the needle

439
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 3: on the stairs, first responders found syringes and IV equipment

440
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 3: in a medical bag at the home. Now, Payot is

441
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 3: a nurse, but he works in operating rooms, and those

442
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 3: aren't the normal items that one brings home from work.

443
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 3: That just isn't. He doesn't have that type of bag

444
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 3: he would bring home from work normally. So again, little

445
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 3: red flags go up. You mentioned the spot on the arm,

446
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 3: you know that they found in the cook of the arm,

447
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 3: and he said she took the pills orally. Now they're

448
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: going by what Payot is telling them his wife did.

449
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 3: Yet when the medical examiner is looking at this, detectives

450
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 3: that are looking at this, and they're all saying, Okay,

451
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 3: she's obviously died of a drug overdose.

452
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: That's what it.

453
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 3: Appears to be, but we can't tell is it suicide

454
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 3: accidental or is it a homicide? How do you figure

455
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 3: it out? Joe?

456
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: If you're looking to kind of sazze up a case

457
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 2: from the perspective of an od You know, we'd already

458
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 2: talked about with if you're taking oral medications. Let's say

459
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: someone who is taking clinase of PAM, they have access

460
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: to it. They're going to down the clinase of PAM.

461
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: It's going to take a goodly amount of the clinase

462
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 2: PAM to bring about death, all right. But if you

463
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: combine that, for perhaps with alcoholic beverage or something that

464
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: might do the trick. There's any number of things that

465
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: can happen. But in most cases, I've gone out on

466
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: scenes where I have found upwards of twenty five empty vials.

467
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: If you can imagine that of medications where people would

468
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: take them by the they get into a frenzy and

469
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: they'll they'll take medications like this, and you find evidence

470
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: of that. Many times, we don't have that here. As

471
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 2: a matter of fact, he had to go to the

472
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 2: medicine cabinet cover that, all right.

473
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 3: I can't imagine somebody picking out a certain number of

474
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 3: pills then this will be enough, I'll take this, I'll

475
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 3: take six. That'll be enough to kill me. And let

476
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 3: me put the top back on this real tight and

477
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 3: put it back in the cabinet, because even though there's

478
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 3: needles on the stairs, I don't want the kids finding

479
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 3: these pills that won't kill them if they take one.

480
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm thinking, you know, you have to be

481
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,239
Speaker 2: I can't imagine anybody being that OCD. You know that

482
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 2: in the midst of such an emotional event like suicide

483
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: is yeah, and so we so we can strike that

484
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: off the list. But when you think about, well, did

485
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: she od with a syringe of something? Well, we know

486
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: that she was a nurse in Puerto Rico, she's not

487
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 2: currently practicing. She didn't she hadn't sat for the boards

488
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 2: in the US. She was going to have to do

489
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 2: some kind of bridge program here, you know, in order

490
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: to get certified. If that's the case, then she is

491
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: not going to be the person that would have access

492
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: to a syringe. And then if she did, what in

493
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: the world did she draw up in order to inject

494
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: into her body that would have brought about death? Because

495
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 2: first off, there's nothing around. I've had people that have injected,

496
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: primarily heroin abusers, and the loads have been so hot.

497
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,959
Speaker 2: I've got one image in my mind of two guys

498
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: that had gotten out of prison and they both went

499
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 2: to quote unquote party and they injected with heroin and

500
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 2: both died, one holding a needle and the other still

501
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 2: in his arm. And you find evidence of that, and also,

502
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 2: you know, you hear about tourniquets and spoons. There's nothing

503
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: to indicate that in this particular case. All we know

504
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: is that we have got a perfectly healthy young lady

505
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: who's the mother of two beautiful children that she adores,

506
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: and we've got disharmony in the home.

507
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: And she's dead.

508
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 2: You know, Dave I had mentioned a little while ago

509
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: that if I could pick an investigator, or like a

510
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: new investigator to come into a staff at a medical

511
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: examiner's office, I would not hesitate to hire a nurse

512
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 2: because they're they're so good at what they do. They're

513
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 2: natural investigators. And plus, in the emmy world, we don't

514
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 2: you know, only one percent of the cases that we

515
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 2: handle our homicides, you know, and the cops are working

516
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 2: on those with us. We're left with all the other

517
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: manners of death, suicides and natural deaths and unexplained deaths,

518
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 2: accidental deaths, you know, all of those things that are

519
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 2: still out there that have to end. Suicides that have

520
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 2: to be explained, and nurses are just they just have

521
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: a knack for it. They're really good at it, and

522
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: they detailed people most of the time. In this case, though,

523
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: I think that with this fellow, I think that his

524
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 2: lack of attention to detail was actually his downfall in

525
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: this particular case.

526
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 3: I got to ask you something because you mentioned we're

527
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 3: talking about how he had built a career that he

528
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 3: was at the top of the food chain for what

529
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 3: he did financially as a nurse anestotist, which I think

530
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 3: I should get a gold star for saying that properly.

531
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 2: If I could reach through, I would stick one right

532
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 2: between your eyes on you.

533
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 3: I'm feeling it right now. And so he is. He's

534
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 3: and we know that he now has left his wife

535
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: of ten years with two children, and they're small and nice,

536
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 3: and he has betted down with his girlfriend of two

537
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 3: years that he works with. We know because he tells

538
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 3: police that he is using steroids. We know that he

539
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 3: is presenting a knight of this death as somebody who's

540
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 3: possibly on drugs. He has sweated through his clothes. He's

541
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,919
Speaker 3: being evasive with answers, but then they still can't quite

542
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 3: get a handle on what has really taken place? So

543
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 3: the medical examiner gets into it. And one of the

544
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 3: things the medical examiner doesn't find, well, he doesn't find

545
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 3: pills in the stomach. Now that means something else has

546
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 3: taken place, because the claim here is that she took

547
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: pills that brought about her death. Now, a toxicology report

548
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 3: is a pretty common thing, I'm guessing. But Joe, have

549
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 3: you ever been called by I don't know, doctor's friends, detectives.

550
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 3: I mean, in this particular case, the friends and co

551
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 3: workers of nurse anestatists Poe L. Pay Off called the

552
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 3: detective and medical examiner and said, hey, this guy was

553
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 3: cheating on his wife. He was going crazy. He didn't

554
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 3: want to you know, he didn't want to pay for

555
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 3: an expensive divorce. Please look deeper. It was the phone

556
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 3: calls from concerned friends. It was phone calls from colleagues

557
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 3: at the hospital that said, please please run a bigger toxicologies.

558
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 3: I don't even know what that means, Joe. Is the

559
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 3: number of panels? What are we talking about here? The

560
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 3: only panels I know are like when you open them on,

561
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 3: let's make a deal. Am I going door number one?

562
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 3: Door number two?

563
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: Door?

564
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 3: I'm getting zoonked with door number three. Are we dealing

565
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 3: with multiple different types of toxicology reports?

566
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 2: Yes, you are, because it's not well because first off,

567
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 2: it's very costly and I'm not going to screen for

568
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 2: every agent in the world.

569
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 3: Okay, so no, wait a minute, that makes sense. That's

570
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 3: why the head doctor calls the guy and says, here,

571
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 3: here are the drugs you should be screening for because

572
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 3: it was expensive.

573
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: I didn't get that. Yeah, and it is. And it

574
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 2: wasn't the doctor that kind of set this whole thing off,

575
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 2: because you know, he's been This is not a massive

576
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: metropolis they are living in. People know one another, all right,

577
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 2: and they know what this guy has gone through. He's

578
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 2: lost his wife, he's got these two babies, and he's

579
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 2: a bright guy, you know, and he had been easy

580
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 2: to work with. But you know, they had seen a

581
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: change in him over the past two years leading up

582
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: to this fatal event. He just turned into a different person,

583
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: according to them. But that's besides the point. His wife

584
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 2: is dead. And you know when the the anesthesiologist, who

585
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 2: is actually the physician, he reached out, he reached out

586
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 2: to the powers that be and said, look, let me

587
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: tell you something. You guys need to dig a little

588
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 2: bit deep when it comes to your talks, because you know,

589
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 2: screen for opioids and benzo's and cannabis.

590
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 3: You know, th HC and drugs regular Joe.

591
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 2: Isolates which is asked for, and you know that shows

592
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: up on the panel.

593
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: They're there.

594
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 2: You know some of the stuff is not going to

595
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 2: show up, and so they did begin to dig deeper. Well,

596
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 2: when you know, the cops are kind of sitting back

597
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 2: and look, this happens in the medical legal world all

598
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: the time, day and look, you've been doing news for

599
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 2: a long time, I guess and you know it before

600
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 2: I say it. But one of the most common phrases is, well,

601
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 2: the authority say that they'll get back to it, but

602
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 2: it's currently pending toxology, you know, and we'll hear that,

603
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: or it's pending cause of death and cause of manner

604
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: that how many times we.

605
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 3: Heard that with Matthew Perry most recently, toxicology.

606
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 2: Pending toxicology because you know they've we with him. You know,

607
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 2: they're looking, they're looking for any number of things that

608
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 2: could have been in the system. As it turns out,

609
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 2: it was ketamine with him, which, oh, by the way,

610
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 2: turns out that Maria Munos had ketamine in her system.

611
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 2: But that's that's the least of these because with just

612
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: let me give you an idea of what drugs she

613
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 2: actually had on board day when she died. When she died,

614
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 2: and it took them four months to get these results

615
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 2: back at autopsy. The reason that they knew that this

616
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 2: was they were going to have to go down a

617
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: different road. I'm not saying that if they had found

618
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 2: this they would have not done talks. We do talks

619
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: on every case. If you're in for a penny, you're

620
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: in for a pound, you draw the blood, you draw

621
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: the year, and you draw the vitreous, you send it

622
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: all in and you weigh Okay. Sometimes causes of death

623
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,720
Speaker 2: are very obvious. But when they opened her, they examined

624
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 2: the contents of her stomach day there was no residue

625
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: in her stomach. And yes, if people out there wondering,

626
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 2: we do find drug residue and it's something that we

627
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 2: can see what they refer to as grossly. That means

628
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: with the unaided eye. So if we have stomach contents,

629
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 2: we will open the stomach generally will pour the contents

630
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 2: of the stomach into a separate container, and there's a

631
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 2: kind of a it's not complex, but there's a specific

632
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 2: dissection that we do with the stomach where we remove

633
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 2: the stomach completely out of the body cavity, we place

634
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: it in a separate container, and we open it in

635
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: another container so we don't lose anything. I was just

636
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 2: watching the latest movie about Elvis and it really got

637
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: back to me. I started digging back into his death.

638
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 2: And you know, one of the things that they had

639
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: done with Elvis is that when he had died, the

640
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 2: folks at the hospital and Memphis had pumped his stomach

641
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 2: and they threw the contents away, So you didn't really

642
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 2: have that gross examination at autom he was autopsy. But

643
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 2: in most cases we'll take the stomach out and we

644
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 2: will literally dump those contents into a container. That way,

645
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: we can go through everything, and we do with our hands,

646
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 2: gloved hands, but we go through everything and we look

647
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,439
Speaker 2: at all of the stomach content and we'll say, well,

648
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 2: we see vegetable matter, what appears to be meat, whatever's there.

649
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 2: You can see spaghetti, hot dogs, and yes, pills and pills.

650
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 2: You know, pills have kind of a I don't know

651
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 2: how to frame it. Really it's almost like a coating.

652
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 2: And you'll hear it in advertisements. You know it's time

653
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 2: to release, and they talk about, well, there's a coating

654
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 2: that goes onto these pills, and you're not just taking

655
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 2: like compressed powder. It's actually shielded in something, and so

656
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,919
Speaker 2: that can be a bit resilient and it'll it'll stay

657
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 2: with you. They didn't find anything like that, David, in

658
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 2: your stomach, and I can imagine because I've been in

659
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:01,240
Speaker 2: this position, you think, oh god, okay, well the answer

660
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 2: doesn't lie here. So they had to wait a couple

661
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 2: of months for these results to come back. But buddy,

662
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 2: let me tell you something, Dave. When they came back,

663
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, this is what Maria had in her system.

664
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 2: She's got morphine, she's got demarole, she's got verse said,

665
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 2: which again is something that will just knock you out. Propofol.

666
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 2: You've got ketamine, which of course is used as precursor

667
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: for anesthesia with animals and humans. And then you got

668
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 2: a lot of cane, which is kind of an interesting,

669
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: you know, kind of an interesting thing to find in

670
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 2: this group because a lot of cane is something that

671
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 2: probably all of us have have had before. If you've

672
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 2: ever had stitches, I know that.

673
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 3: I've had it. It's a number.

674
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does numb the area. But you know what

675
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: all of these things have in common. It sounds like

676
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,240
Speaker 2: the episode of Sesame Street. All these things have in common.

677
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 2: They're all injectables, every one of them. You can draw

678
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,399
Speaker 2: them up and you're not going to walk into your

679
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: local pharmacist and say, I want to get the script

680
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: filled for probafol. It's this is a medication that is

681
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: strictly used in a surgical environment. So when can you

682
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 2: imagine the shock on the emmy's face when they begin

683
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: to go through these drugs and they say, my Lord,

684
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 2: wasn't the why are all these in her system? Well,

685
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: the the the arithmetic becomes pretty easy at that point

686
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 2: in time. We're not going to the moon here, all right.

687
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's pretty simple stuff at this point

688
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 2: in time, because you think you have to think about,

689
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 2: you know, who has the knowledge, who has access right

690
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 2: and uh, and who would have the means, who would

691
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 2: have the ability? The authorities in this particular case, felt

692
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 2: as though that perhaps perhaps that her husband, Maria's husband

693
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 2: had actually gotten access to her coffee, that she loved

694
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: so much. And when they're going to quote unquote talk,

695
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 2: he had administered this cocktail to her of these drugs

696
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 2: to get her in a compliant position. And then once

697
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: he had her in that position, he cracks open, He

698
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: cracks open this catheter, he sticks it in her arm

699
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 2: and then injects her with a propo fall. And here's

700
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 2: the thing, enough of this stuff will absolutely kill you,

701
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 2: and in her case, it certainly did.

702
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: Joe. It was that simple that the doctor when they

703
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 3: came back with the medication, when they actually got that,

704
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 3: that was enough to arrest him, and they did. They

705
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 3: arrested hoel Plot. But when they got ready for trial,

706
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 3: there was still the argument to be made that you know,

707
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 3: there are other ways one can get these besides him,

708
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 3: And that was where the prosecution they were able to

709
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 3: find something, and they used an incredible way. They put

710
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 3: a team together of women attorneys to prosecute this case.

711
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 3: They wanted to stand with Maria Munos when they found

712
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 3: her diary, because to try to pretend she was trying

713
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 3: to commit suicide, they had to analyze her life, what

714
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 3: was going on with Maria Muno's and they were able

715
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,959
Speaker 3: to read her diaries, they were able to break these

716
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 3: down and look at her own words, her own thoughts,

717
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 3: her own dreams, her own ideas, and they found out

718
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 3: beyond a shadow of she not only didn't want to die,

719
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 3: she wanted to live. She wanted to be happy again.

720
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 3: She was not happy with the way things were going,

721
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 3: but she was willing to move forward to let bygones

722
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 3: be got bygones. Some of the entries, and she was

723
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 3: seeking help from the church. She was seeking help from therapists.

724
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 3: She was to find a way to make her husband

725
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 3: happy again. She wrote in one of her entries, my

726
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 3: fears are one losing my family, two losing my husband,

727
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 3: three damaging my kids, four making the wrong choice. Another entry,

728
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,919
Speaker 3: I want to be kind. I want to be successful.

729
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 3: I want to be a good mom, A mom that

730
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 3: is present, engaged and involved with my kids, teaches them values,

731
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 3: to be kind, to grow and learn as much as

732
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 3: they can, give them tools to be amazing, successful, happy

733
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 3: human beings. These are not the entries of somebody who

734
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 3: is getting ready to take their own life. These are

735
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 3: entries of a woman in love with her children and

736
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 3: her life and her family, and she is seeing it

737
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 3: go leave her and she says, my symbol, and she

738
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 3: has a symbol of a heart. This last entry, well

739
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: not the last entry I'm going to show, not the

740
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 3: last entry in her diary. It says, my heart says

741
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 3: one thing, my mind says another something else. I am

742
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 3: in a constant battle, a tug of war. I wanted

743
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 3: to stop, but they won't. They keep me sad. And

744
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 3: those are my tears. She was crying for her relationship

745
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 3: with her husband. The prosecution was able to bring that

746
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 3: into court, Joe, and they were able to bring life

747
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 3: to Maria Muno's It wasn't just the dead body of

748
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,760
Speaker 3: a woman who had been administered a set of drugs

749
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 3: that left her dead in the floor of her bedroom

750
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:51,280
Speaker 3: by her husband.

751
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 2: This team of prosecutors that the DA put on Maria's case,

752
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 2: they said to them, this spoke, This spoke of domestic

753
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,760
Speaker 2: abuse to them, the stuff that she had been through,

754
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: because and it's almost like they had conjured her up.

755
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 2: This diary had where she was physically, you know, almost

756
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 2: not physically, but she was present in that moment, almost

757
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 2: bearing witness to everything that had gone on. And I

758
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,439
Speaker 2: think the combination of the diaries and certainly that talked

759
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 2: to college or report left the jury would know the

760
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: choice than to find this man.

761
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: I'm guilty.

762
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is bodybacks