Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George nor with you.
Speaker 2: Nathaniel gillis with us. A religious demonologist and author. A
Speaker 2: couple of his works include a moment called Man the
Speaker 2: Skin that Crawls. After living in a haunted house, Nathaniel
Speaker 2: spent twenty years researching what had happened to him. Nathaniel
Speaker 2: has sought to redefine the nature of haunting phenomena, ghosts,
Speaker 2: and high strangeness, and he's often quoted for his concept
Speaker 2: of the demonic. The reason they are playing by different
Speaker 2: rules is because they're playing a different game. Nathaniel gillis
Speaker 2: back on Coast to Coast. Nathaniel, welcome back.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me George. It's always a pleasure
Speaker 3: to be on with you, and I'm thankful to have
Speaker 3: this opportunity to talk about my work.
Speaker 2: How is our favorite demonologist doing.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'll have to ask them now. I'm
Speaker 3: doing good. We're doing good, just you know, very deep
Speaker 3: in the research and trying to find in their connectivities
Speaker 3: between different phenomena. But like I said, George, it's always
Speaker 3: a pleasure to be on with you.
Speaker 2: That's great. Now, what happened to you a long time
Speaker 2: ago in that haunted situation?
Speaker 3: Well, it's very interesting. So I was eight and a half,
Speaker 3: and I say that because when you're eight that matters.
Speaker 3: But I was in between eight and nine years old
Speaker 3: when my parents went to an open house. They were
Speaker 3: looking to relocate, and so during the open house, my
Speaker 3: dad led me buy the hand into what would become
Speaker 3: my future room. And it was in that room that
Speaker 3: very night that I witnessed a full bodied apparition of
Speaker 3: a little girl. And I can remember three things about
Speaker 3: that manifestation. Number one obviously the very present entity that
Speaker 3: was in the room. But more than that, there was
Speaker 3: a stench that I smelled. It was smelled like a
Speaker 3: decomposing body or something. I can't really tell you. I
Speaker 3: don't have the vocabulary yet. But the entity was malevolent
Speaker 3: and it evolved according to my awareness of it. But
Speaker 3: that was my very first encounter with the phenomenon.
Speaker 2: Did it haunt you for a long time?
Speaker 3: I would say between the ages of eight and about sixteen.
Speaker 3: I went through various stages of manifestation with it. Like
Speaker 3: I said, so, the first being that I encountered, or
Speaker 3: the first mask I encountered, was a very pale little girl.
Speaker 3: She had black, long hair. She was wearing a white
Speaker 3: linen dress that looked to it made during the time
Speaker 3: of the century or during the turn of the century rather.
Speaker 3: But like I said before, once I moved in, it
Speaker 3: evolved into shadow figures, into a smoky apparition that would
Speaker 3: kind of ball up in the corner of the room.
Speaker 3: It was a learning curve for me, but it was
Speaker 3: instrumental in the development of my own self and my
Speaker 3: own passion to understand what's going on here.
Speaker 2: Did it ever attempt to hurt you, not.
Speaker 3: Physically, but I will tell you that the nightmares that
Speaker 3: it induced within me, we're deeply disturbing. I can tell
Speaker 3: you this much. As an eight year old kid. There's
Speaker 3: very there's very few references I have to you know,
Speaker 3: drugs or any kind of substance abuse. And yet during
Speaker 3: these nightmares, I kept seeing the same men on a
Speaker 3: picnic table. One was had a needle in his arm,
Speaker 3: and I didn't even know what insulin was at that point. Wow,
Speaker 3: And so one had a needle in his arm, and
Speaker 3: then the other one would always make eye contact with me,
Speaker 3: and then it was essentially the one individual on the
Speaker 3: left would place something in his mouth and pull the trigger,
Speaker 3: and then I would wake up to that looping nightmare,
Speaker 3: and whatever was in that I would be present again.
Speaker 3: And it was almost fabricating fear and then feeding off
Speaker 3: of it.
Speaker 2: What led you to become a demonologist that I'll.
Speaker 3: Tell you what. I had this coping mechanism when I
Speaker 3: was growing up. I mean when I'm talking about I'm
Speaker 3: not just saying that this being was with me and
Speaker 3: you know, like I'm exaggerating. No, the entity went to
Speaker 3: bed with me, It woke up and went to school
Speaker 3: with me. And so there was this coping mechanism that
Speaker 3: I employed to where I asked myself, Okay, am I
Speaker 3: afraid of this entity simply because I don't know what
Speaker 3: it was right or what it is? And so I
Speaker 3: kind of worked my way around its presence by doing that.
Speaker 3: But the older I became, the more I realized that
Speaker 3: I wasn't crazy. This stuff was actually occurring not just
Speaker 3: to me, but to other kids my age all across
Speaker 3: the world, and it inspired me to want to understand
Speaker 3: the phenomenon on a deeper level, not on a surface
Speaker 3: based level, but something to where I can actually say, Okay,
Speaker 3: I can put it in my hands, I can check
Speaker 3: and feel it, you know. And that's what inspired me
Speaker 3: to get into this. Now, I got to tell you,
Speaker 3: I'm still trying to understand what a demon is. So
Speaker 3: even the term demonologist seems a little bit verbose for me.
Speaker 2: Now, who trained you to become a demonologist? Where do
Speaker 2: you go?
Speaker 3: Well, I wish there was a school for demonologists. For
Speaker 3: the last ten years I was doing hands on right,
Speaker 3: like going in and doing cleansings and houses. But since then,
Speaker 3: like about two or three years ago, I stopped doing
Speaker 3: cleansings and I started diving back into the to the
Speaker 3: academic research. But I was trained. This is very un
Speaker 3: asking people. The people that follow my reasearch are like
Speaker 3: what I got my first taste of spiritual warfare in
Speaker 3: the Pentecostal movement, and their tradition was vastly different than
Speaker 3: what I learned to believe in later on. But they're
Speaker 3: the ones that trained me. And I could tell you
Speaker 3: this even as I was growing up, a lot of
Speaker 3: what I was experiencing because it did not fit the
Speaker 3: blueprint of Phytoconstal demonology. It was it wasn't a great
Speaker 3: experience for me because if they didn't sit into their blueprint,
Speaker 3: it needed either I was lying or it didn't happen,
Speaker 3: or I was just you know, just making it larger
Speaker 3: than it was. But that's where I got my training,
Speaker 3: and it was all hands on. It was literally, you're
Speaker 3: right in front of someone, what do you do? What
Speaker 3: do you say? What are you looking for? And so
Speaker 3: what I started doing though, is I realized that there
Speaker 3: are a lot of people that need help that will
Speaker 3: never darken the door of a church, and that's what
Speaker 3: inspired me to go out into the homes actively and
Speaker 3: do an investigations and a more secular venue.
Speaker 2: What are demons in the thing?
Speaker 3: There are two hypotheses out there right now. The first
Speaker 3: HYPOTHESI is actually both of them originated in the sixteenth century.
Speaker 3: One of them is that a demon is they a malevolent,
Speaker 3: disembodied ghost where the anentity in and of itself is
Speaker 3: formerly human. And one of the most ancient ideas about
Speaker 3: these things these beings were that some people can die
Speaker 3: and they evolve, others can die and they mutate. So
Speaker 3: that's one hypothesis. The other one, which was embraced by
Speaker 3: the Catholic Church in the sixteenth century was essentially that
Speaker 3: all of these beings are horns and hooks. These are
Speaker 3: all fallen angels or the offspring of fallen angels. What
Speaker 3: I might my interest as of late though, and this
Speaker 3: is just because the evidence is leading me to this conclusion.
Speaker 3: The evidence suggests that what we're looking at is a
Speaker 3: singular intelligence that is using demonology and various other masks
Speaker 3: to deceive us and to hide from us.
Speaker 2: But they're not extra terrestrial.
Speaker 3: Die and they evolve. Others can die, and they mutate.
Speaker 3: So that's one hypothesis. The other one, which was embraced
Speaker 3: by the Catholic Church and the sixteenth sey, was essentially
Speaker 3: that all of these beings are horns and hooks. These
Speaker 3: are all fallen angels or the offspring of fallen angels.
Speaker 3: What I might my interest as of late though, and
Speaker 3: this is just because the evidence is leading me to
Speaker 3: this conclusion. The evidence suggests that what we're looking at
Speaker 3: as a singular intelligence that is using demonology and various
Speaker 3: other masks to deceive us and to hide from us.
Speaker 2: But they're not extraterrestrial, are they right? Well, we would
Speaker 2: call aliens.
Speaker 3: Right right, And you know that that's such a big argument,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, because the entire field was
Speaker 3: would you believe, you know, are they demons orleians? I
Speaker 3: would suggest again that the case studies, which we'll we'll
Speaker 3: get into this morning, it will demonstrate a pathology that
Speaker 3: unites all of this phenomena underneath one umbrella. And I
Speaker 3: think that's one of the most disturbing aspects of this,
Speaker 3: is that there is intelligence that's willing to play the
Speaker 3: role of the demon what night. But yeah, so if
Speaker 3: we're looking at this intelligence. Foremost they do like to
Speaker 3: obviously induce us in the dream states, to dislocate our
Speaker 3: consciousness out of our bodies. But more than anything else,
Speaker 3: but I've noticed is that they like to impregnate and
Speaker 3: they like to take the fetus. In all of this, again,
Speaker 3: it's surrounding what we would consider to be possession.
Speaker 2: When an extorcist tries to rid a body of a spirit,
Speaker 2: is it the demon they're trying to get rid of?
Speaker 3: Yes, yes they are. This is a very controversial passage
Speaker 3: of scripture that I'm going to employ here, but it
Speaker 3: comes out of the Book of Psalms, Chapter one, O
Speaker 3: nine and verse six. A lot of Bible scholars and
Speaker 3: even rabbis have an issue with us because it's one
Speaker 3: of the cursed texts, and it's indicative of something that
Speaker 3: pretty much but you're gonna put out there. It rocks
Speaker 3: people's worlds because it doesn't fit in their blueprint of
Speaker 3: a demonic. It's almost one of ninety six. David is
Speaker 3: talking to God about a man that's been falsely accusing him,
Speaker 3: and so he asks God. He says, place over that
Speaker 3: man a possessing, evil, disincarnate man. In other words, put
Speaker 3: in him a ghost. And then he says something that's
Speaker 3: equally as disturbing, and it says, next to that ghost,
Speaker 3: place a satan, an adiversary, an accuser. And so there
Speaker 3: was an age old argument throughout millennia and especially within
Speaker 3: a demonological world that what a lot of these priests
Speaker 3: are doing and even just researchers are doing when they're
Speaker 3: trying to release that entity from that demoniac, what they're
Speaker 3: not realizing is is that fallen angel is attached to
Speaker 3: an unclean spirit, and by getting rid of the fallen angel,
Speaker 3: it does not mean we got rid of the unclean spirit.
Speaker 3: So there are various hypotheses of what's going on. But
Speaker 3: essentially the exorcistic riote is designed to get rid of
Speaker 3: the entity and any kind of residue the entity has
Speaker 3: authored in that individual.
Speaker 2: Are these demons attached to the afterlife?
Speaker 3: Their pathology is their belief systems in many cases are
Speaker 3: their language preferences are especially within Ndibuksnamon. We have cases
Speaker 3: well into the nineteenth century where whatever is possessing these people,
Speaker 3: it doesn't fall underneath the linguistic umbrella of Catholicism. I mean,
Speaker 3: if we're looking at some of these entities especially this
Speaker 3: is interesting one case in nineteen ninety nine where an
Speaker 3: entity possessed a woman, but the entity itself he was
Speaker 3: not Jewish, and yet it was in a Jewish area
Speaker 3: of the world, right, it was a levant. And so
Speaker 3: what happened was the woman who was Jewish, she was Rabbinic,
Speaker 3: and yet the spirit inside of her did not fall
Speaker 3: underneath the religious tradition of Judaism. And so what they
Speaker 3: would have to do is go to a local village
Speaker 3: next to them and find someone in Islamia to come
Speaker 3: and cast this into the out. So what we're witnessing
Speaker 3: is not just their belief systems that they're carrying on
Speaker 3: in the afterlife, but their language preferences, which I think
Speaker 3: is fascinating.
Speaker 2: What are they though? What are they?
Speaker 3: That's the age old question, my friend. Whatever they are,
Speaker 3: I'm leaning towards a very unique hypothesis that these are
Speaker 3: in fact mutated ghosts and that there is something to
Speaker 3: do with being re embodied that defines their entire existence.
Speaker 3: But you know, even getting back to the didic, which
Speaker 3: is what we're talking about tonight, you know, there are
Speaker 3: two definitions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the Jewish phrase, isn't it correct?
Speaker 3: Yes, sir, absolutely, And there are two definitions to this
Speaker 3: that I think will catch a lot of people's attention. Okay,
Speaker 3: Number one, the word dipik simply means to attach or
Speaker 3: to a hear or to cling or possess correct correct,
Speaker 3: And so what's really interesting though, is it's almost like
Speaker 3: it's a dual meaning. So the first meaning is to possess,
Speaker 3: the cling to to attach. The second meaning, and this
Speaker 3: is the one that really really capture my attention, The
Speaker 3: second meaning is the impregnation of the dead in the
Speaker 3: bodies of a living. And you'll see that in the
Speaker 3: pathology that will reference tonight or this morning.
Speaker 2: Interesting to take on all of that what makes them
Speaker 2: so evil, Nathaniel.
Speaker 3: I don't know a lot of these beings. A matter
Speaker 3: of fact, there is a case study in the seventh
Speaker 3: or in the seventeenth century where one of these entities
Speaker 3: was quite literally stalking its own crime scenes. It had
Speaker 3: manifested to a man that was picking apples in an orchard,
Speaker 3: and next thing, you know, the cynity possessed this man.
Speaker 3: And when this man went to the exorcist, they were
Speaker 3: interrogating the entity and said, you know, why would you
Speaker 3: They were looking for pathology in piktomology, which is what
Speaker 3: we're all looking for, but they asked the entity, they said,
Speaker 3: why would you pick this individual and not the others?
Speaker 3: And the entity, in no uncertain terms, claimed that he
Speaker 3: had committed a crime in life directly underneath that apple
Speaker 3: tree in that specific orchard. And so what the exorcist
Speaker 3: realized is that this entity was essentially by all measures,
Speaker 3: a serial killer in a sense, and that it was
Speaker 3: demonstrating exactly what are serial killers that are lying right
Speaker 3: now are demonstrating, which is they do stalk their crime scenes,
Speaker 3: which is alarming to me.
Speaker 2: But they're not fallen angels, they're not ets, they're their
Speaker 2: own grouping.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, Now there are pathologies of victimologies that interconnect
Speaker 3: with UFO abduction of phenomen in such a degree that
Speaker 3: it's glaringly obvious, at least to me it is, and
Speaker 3: to some of my other colleagues, that there is, again,
Speaker 3: there's a singular intelligence here that is masking itself throughout
Speaker 3: history as demonaic. I would like to suggest, and I'm
Speaker 3: just obviously it's just me, so take it with the grain
Speaker 3: as salt, but I would like to suggest that there
Speaker 3: is an intelligence that's wearing both the ET and the
Speaker 3: DBIC and the demonic mask to height its true identity
Speaker 3: from us.
Speaker 2: So, even though we believe there are extraterrestrials, you're saying
Speaker 2: that these demons basically try to mix and confuse us
Speaker 2: and pretend that they're also ets.
Speaker 3: Yes. Yes, I would suggest that if you were to
Speaker 3: look at an ET, put him in the corner, and
Speaker 3: then look at a demon, put him in the other corner,
Speaker 3: turn the lights off, I would guarantee you there's a
Speaker 3: third intelligence there in the middle that we have not
Speaker 3: yet considered. I'm just saying that, based off of the
Speaker 3: case studies, what we've learned though in the field is
Speaker 3: that it's high time that we stop compartmentalizing the phenomenon
Speaker 3: to where you have d boot victims and then you
Speaker 3: have experiences, or you have incuby victims, then you have experiences.
Speaker 3: If we're looking at the same intelligence, which it does
Speaker 3: appear to be that, then we're also looking at case
Speaker 3: studies that we are now intellectually freed to include into
Speaker 3: our research. But whatever we're dealing with, it's the same
Speaker 3: bloody footprints in the snow. These are the same rituals,
Speaker 3: and it's seemingly that's the same intelligence.
Speaker 2: When one dies, Nathaniel, will they face these demons or
Speaker 2: is that a different plane of existence?
Speaker 3: I don't know. I could tell you this a couple
Speaker 3: of years back.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: I got really deep in my research, and from time
Speaker 3: to time, if it gets too dark, George, I'll just
Speaker 3: shut it all, you know what I mean. I suffer
Speaker 3: from it a lot of times. But I was really
Speaker 3: deep into the abduction phenomenon when I got two random
Speaker 3: emails from two different accounts within two hours of each other,
Speaker 3: and both of them were from experiencers or whatever we
Speaker 3: want to call them. Both of them told me that
Speaker 3: their guide said that they'll be waiting for me when
Speaker 3: I die.
Speaker 2: That's Fuzzy's nice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hope not, my friend, I hope. No.
Speaker 2: You don't want that happening, that's for sure.
Speaker 3: No, not at all, not at all.
Speaker 2: What has been, in your experience one of the worst
Speaker 2: cases of possession you've come across.
Speaker 3: It was a murder, and it was one of my
Speaker 3: own cases. And I'll be very graceful with us, but yeah,
Speaker 3: there was a case that I worked on myself where
Speaker 3: I walked into the house and I was originally supposed
Speaker 3: to just pray with the family, and I had no
Speaker 3: frame of reference for what actually occurred. But when I
Speaker 3: went to the house, I could see that there was
Speaker 3: carpet that was cut up and that I was specifically
Speaker 3: there to kick an entity out. And that was that
Speaker 3: that act of possession, because it was a miner that
Speaker 3: committed the murder. That was rough because the girls she
Speaker 3: had came into the house with a disembodied voice coming
Speaker 3: out of her mouth, and one of the experience, one
Speaker 3: of the victims I was working with in the family
Speaker 3: said that it was it was a female, but it
Speaker 3: was a male voice, and that without moving her mouth,
Speaker 3: it was it was coming out of her mouth and
Speaker 3: talking to them. That was pretty alarming because a lot
Speaker 3: of times, again in these possessions, it's a direct confrontation
Speaker 3: with evil or or what we would consider it evil,
Speaker 3: but it's not to the point where you know by
Speaker 3: the time you get there, the entity has taken control
Speaker 3: of an individual and accomplished what it wants.
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