1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:02,679 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Just to note that this is part two 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: of our hot for Teacher Dawson's Creek episode. If you 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: haven't listened to part one yet, I recommend starting there. Otherwise, 4 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: enjoy the show. So when I texted our high school 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: friend group text chain and was like, by the way, 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: do you remember how in Dawson's Creek Pacy actually sleeps 7 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: with his teacher. 8 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. 9 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 3: My first reaction when you texted that was really. 10 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: So, this is my high school friend Rosie Bancroft. As 11 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: a reminder, Rosie is a mental health counselor and a 12 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: public middle school in Seattle. But twenty five years ago, 13 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 1: Rosie was hosting Dawson's Creek watch parties in her parents' basement. 14 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 4: And then I thought, oh, I guess I have some 15 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 4: vague recollection of that. 16 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 5: But it was like not impactful or something. 17 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 4: It did not register or we thought it was cool 18 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 4: or maybe that's why I liked pacey YOUW. 19 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: This reaction she's having perfectly encapsulates the emotional rollercoaster of 20 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: being an adult now and realizing that you, our teenage 21 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: self was totally obsessed with and maybe even kind of 22 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: turned on by in a gross way. A fifteen year 23 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: old boy's illicit relationship with his thirty six year old 24 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: English teacher, a relationship that, in this case, mirror the 25 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: scandal's going on in our own high school in Seattle 26 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: and in national headlines about Mary Kay Laturno, which also 27 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: happened to be in our hometown. 28 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 3: I'm Jessica Bennett. 29 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 6: And I'm Susievnacaram. 30 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: And this is in Retrospect, where each week we delve 31 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: into a cultural moment from. 32 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 3: The past that shaped us and that. 33 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 6: We just can't stop thinking about. 34 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: Today, we're talking about Pacey's relationship with this much older 35 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: teacher on Dawson's Creek, but we're also talking about sex 36 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: in the nineties and how we understood it. This is 37 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: part two of Hot per Teacher. So we're talking about 38 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: Dawson's Creek and specifically the relationship between Pacey, one of 39 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: the main characters, and his teacher, Tamoraw And one of 40 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: the interesting things that we've grappled with a bit you 41 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: and I, Suzie is how we talk about it. Like, 42 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: throughout our discussion we're sort of like, are we calling 43 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: it an affair? 44 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 3: Were calling it a statuetory? 45 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:14,399 Speaker 1: It raised and assaults what is it an inappropriate relationship? 46 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: And that's interesting because in the show itself, they don't 47 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: refer to it as inappropriate. Necessarily they know that it 48 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: is taboo, but Pacy H's self describes it as falling 49 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: in love. The official description of the episode on Hulu, 50 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: where it now streams you can watch Dawson's Creek calls 51 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: it an affair. 52 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 7: Yeah, And something that's occurred to me is that the 53 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 7: thing that we're kind of grappling with is related to 54 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 7: the fact that the show presents it in such a 55 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 7: way that it makes it hard to see it as 56 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 7: anything other than extremely consensual, right, Pacy's like, kind of 57 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 7: the aggressor even the way that the townsfolk find out 58 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 7: about the affair or assault or how or we should 59 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 7: be talking about it is because Pacy and Dawson are 60 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 7: having a conversation about it in the school bathroom, where 61 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 7: Pace is telling Dawson about how he's had a conversation 62 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 7: with his teacher that morning about wanting to have a 63 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 7: more open relationship, and he says something hilarious like, once 64 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 7: I get my learner's permit, it's like this woman is 65 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 7: going to cave completely. So then it's on. Yeah, then 66 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,119 Speaker 7: it's on. So it's like, two things about that really 67 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 7: struck me. What is that it's a reminder that he 68 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 7: can't even drive, like he doesn't have his learners permit, 69 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 7: Like that is really a child. And then on top 70 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 7: of that that, it's again presented as he's trying to 71 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 7: get her to cave. He's trying to persuade her. He 72 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 7: is the aggressor and she is the one who is 73 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 7: trying to like protect them from peering eyes and peering. 74 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: Eyes which are literally in the bathroom because there is 75 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: another kid who's smoking weeds in the stall, like sort 76 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: of crouched on top of the toilet so they can't 77 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: see his beak. 78 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 7: Yeah, who overhears the whole Yeah, And that's how they're 79 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 7: ultimately discovered. Right, And again it's not presented as like 80 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 7: her suddenly realizing what she's done and being mortified. She's 81 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 7: very angry at him because she's like, this relationship only 82 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 7: required for you to be silent about it, right, there 83 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 7: was only one boundary, and that boundary was silence about 84 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,559 Speaker 7: this or like not telling anyone. And she literally says 85 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 7: in that conversation, the boundary wasn't about sex. 86 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: You know, it was like the dialogue in Nasciens is 87 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: just it's wild chef's kiss, Ye, chef's kiss exactly. 88 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 7: So you know, I think we're struggling with something real, 89 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 7: which is that this was presented in such a way 90 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 7: that it was almost impossible to see it as a 91 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 7: negative or as a thing that was happening to him. 92 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 6: It felt like he had a lot of agency. 93 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: And the other thing is there's sort of like a tenderness, 94 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: like we are getting invested as viewers in this quote 95 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: unquote relationship. Yeah, Like we see Pacey get comfortable at 96 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: her house. There's a scene where he's reading a magazine 97 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: on her bed while she creades papers. They have this 98 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:21,799 Speaker 1: like banter. It is more than just a quote unquote tryst. 99 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: And I think I said this before, but he describes 100 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: it as falling in love with her. And so it's 101 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: interesting too because outside of the show, the press is 102 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: covering this. The New York Times calls the plot quote 103 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: a sexual affair, and they get into the sallaciousness and 104 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: impropriety of. 105 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 3: It, but they still call it that. 106 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: The president of the WB network actually says in an 107 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: interview with The Times in that story that the plot 108 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: ultimately sent a positive message because Miss Jacobs would go 109 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: on to lose her job and Pacey would be sort 110 00:05:54,960 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: of ostracized at school. Interestingly, the voices who are kind 111 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: of objecting to this are the ones that we might 112 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 1: not expect, such as the New York Post. Yeah, who 113 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: calls the plotline an immorl exploitation of a youthful curiosity 114 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: about sex? 115 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 7: Well, did it feel like an immoral exploitation of youthful 116 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 7: curiosity about sex when you were quationing with your friend? 117 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 3: I don't think so. 118 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: And honestly, the taboo was part of what the appeal with. 119 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 7: Yeah. 120 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: So all of this is happening kind of in parallel 121 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: in some ways to the Mary Kay Laturno case, including 122 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: how we talked about it. So, as you'll remember Mary Kaylaturno, 123 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: this is a case happening in nineteen ninety six, just 124 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: a couple of years before Dawson's premiered. It's happening outside 125 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: of Seattle, where I was as a teenager. 126 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 6: The relationship that began when the boy was just twelve 127 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 6: years old resulted in two pregnancies and for Loturno, a 128 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 6: seven year sentence for child rape. 129 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: So that case would spark this whole media frenzy, but 130 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: it was basically portrayed if you dig back into articles 131 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: of the time, I'm about two people so in love. 132 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: They just couldn't keep their hands off each other. They 133 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: couldn't stay away from each other. They happened to me 134 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: at the wrong place and the wrong time. 135 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 7: Yeah, it has so many parallels. She's also like a 136 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 7: very pretty young teacher. Even though she's thirty four, she 137 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 7: looks quite youthful, and she very much pushed this idea 138 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 7: that he was the aggressor, which is ridiculous in retrospect, 139 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 7: that this twelve year old child was pursuing her. 140 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 6: But when I talk. 141 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 7: About that case, when I talk about that case with 142 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 7: you or with friends, I don't really struggle with saying 143 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 7: that it just is so blatantly wrong. Right, It's so 144 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 7: clear to me that a thirty four year old woman 145 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 7: shouldn't be having sex with a twelve year old boy. 146 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 7: And I don't call it like an affair or like 147 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,679 Speaker 7: a sexual encounter. I'm like, oh yeah, when Mary Kayla 148 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 7: turnout obviously assaulted her twelve year old student. And so 149 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 7: it's interesting that the reason we struggle with this is 150 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 7: because we've watched the relationship play out in a way 151 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 7: that really supports that idea, and that is the idea 152 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 7: that Mary Kay was really pushing in the press, and 153 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 7: that the press kind of accepted her version of events 154 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 7: because there was this bias that like, a twelve year 155 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 7: old boy would love to have sex with mary Kay 156 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 7: Laturno because she was like hot, and that is all 157 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 7: the twelve year old boys care about. But when you 158 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 7: spend any time with a twelve year old boy like 159 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 7: that is a baby. You know, twelve year old kids 160 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 7: are still like watching cartoons on Sunday morning. You know, 161 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 7: it's really hard to think about them as adults. But 162 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 7: it's easier when you're watching Dawson's Creek because Pacey's a 163 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 7: twenty something year old actor, so he doesn't look like 164 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 7: a child. He doesn't physically present as a child. But 165 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 7: if you look at pictures of Villy, who is the 166 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 7: child that mary Kay Laturno essentially assaulted, he looks really young, 167 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 7: and so it does put it into perspective, I think. 168 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: And the thing is in me is really buying into this, 169 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: like they are helping to wrap this narrative up and 170 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: also to perpetuate so you know, MSNBC brings in a 171 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: psychologist for a segment about it. The segment is titled 172 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: Predator or Lever question Mark, And in this segment they 173 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: note that quote all of us are touched by the 174 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: adolescent love between Mary Kay and Veatley, Like are. 175 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:24,719 Speaker 6: We all of us touched by that? 176 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 7: Because I don't see it as an adolescent love. She's 177 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 7: thirty four, she has a child, right the same age 178 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 7: as Billy. 179 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: But that's so interesting because like, we are the journalists now, 180 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: we would be the ones covering this case were it 181 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: to happen now, and we would come at this very 182 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,719 Speaker 1: differently than the journalists did back then. 183 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 3: All these articles were sort of. 184 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: Quoting both sides of the debate that both sides is 185 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: that I feel like, oh, the New York Times is 186 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: constantly being criticized for and I get a million hate 187 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: tweets about all the time. 188 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 3: But they are very much doing that with this story. 189 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: And so in one article in the Chicago Tribune, they 190 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: bring a Beverly Hills women on who had run a 191 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: dating club for older women and younger men. 192 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 6: And presumably men who are over the age. 193 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: Of eighteen, Yes, presumably, but she says she is quoted 194 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: in print and the Chicago Tribune in nineteen ninety eight saying, quote, 195 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: you don't break up eleven couple. The male here is 196 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: much more a man than someone older because he is 197 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: committed to it. 198 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 7: So commitment makes you a man, because I'm pretty sure 199 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 7: like two ten year olds in a relationship can feel committed, 200 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 7: But that doesn't make right adults, Like that's such a 201 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 7: weird way to define manhood. 202 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: But then what happens next is Mary Kay Laturno gets 203 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: out of prison in two thousand and four, she is 204 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: registered as a Level two sex offender. Really, the boy 205 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: now man, then petitions the court to reverse a no 206 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: contact order so they can see each other. They get 207 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: married the following year, and Entertainment Tonight negotiates exclusive access 208 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: to stream or broadcast from their wedding. 209 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 6: Wait like a celebrity wedding. They treat it like a celebrity. 210 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 6: That's wild. 211 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 7: And then they really lead into the narrative throughout their 212 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 7: married life. 213 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: Right, so, Mary Kay, and really, even before they're married, 214 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: they do things like co author a book. This book 215 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: was only published in France, which I guess can tell 216 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: you something about France. But it's called only one crime 217 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 1: Colon Love. They then later once she's out of jail, 218 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: host this special night at a bar in Seattle called 219 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 1: Hot for Teacher Night where he's the DJ and she's 220 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 1: the special guest. 221 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: They're kind of turning this into a gimmick. 222 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 6: I mean. 223 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 7: The thing is also interesting about the book and maybe 224 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 7: even the Hot for Teacher Night is that he's still 225 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 7: really quite young, right because it started when he was twelve, 226 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 7: So how much is he really co authoring this book 227 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 7: or making these decisions in their life? Like you have 228 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 7: to imagine that their relationship is so odd because she 229 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 7: was quite literally his teacher and then she had two 230 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 7: children right when he was like thirteen. 231 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's the thing that almost makes me 232 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: uncomfortable talking about this is that they do have two 233 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: grown daughters now who are in their twenties. 234 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 7: I mean, she has since passed away from cancer and 235 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 7: her and Billy had gotten a divorce before that. But 236 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 7: there is this absolutely wild interview that our researcher Sharon 237 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 7: found that I could not stop watching that this channel 238 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 7: in Australia did Australia's seven News at a time where 239 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 7: Billy is now in his mid thirties. The age she 240 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 7: was when they had this. 241 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 6: I mean, it's the thing. 242 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 7: I don't even know how to what you call it. 243 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 7: I guess this relationship right. And you see very clearly 244 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 7: in these clips of them being interviewed that he is 245 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 7: deeply uncomfortable with what's happened to him. There's this really 246 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 7: weird scene between them where the interviewer is actually being 247 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 7: you know, challenging and saying to her, wasn't this inappropriate? 248 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 6: You were a tetcher, Mary? 249 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 3: You can't say I was immature, that you don't know him? 250 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 6: No, but I don't need to know him in this 251 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 6: discussion child. 252 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 7: And she is saying to Villy over and over again, well, 253 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 7: who was the boss? 254 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 6: Who is the boss? What? Who is the boss? 255 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 2: Back? 256 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 6: Pursuing you? Who was the boss? 257 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: Back? 258 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,599 Speaker 6: Thenous? Ridiculous? 259 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 7: Who was She just keeps saying it over and over again, 260 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 7: but who was the boss? And he literally says on camera, this. 261 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 6: Is getting weird. 262 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 7: It just seems impossible that you wouldn't have trauma, right, Like, 263 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 7: you're a twelve year old boy, you have two children 264 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 7: at thirteen. Having two children at thirteen, even in and 265 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 7: of itself, is I think kind of a traumatic experience 266 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 7: and that then the mother of his children is in 267 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 7: prison and is acknowledged as a sex offender by the 268 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 7: legal system, and that she continues to pursue the relationship 269 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 7: while she's in prison, so much so that when she 270 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 7: gets out. 271 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 6: Again, we weren't there. 272 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 7: But I assume she really pushed the idea of them 273 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 7: getting married, So it's hard to imagine that their dynamic 274 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 7: was not super weird every step of the way. And 275 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 7: he's actually pretty clear that now being the age she was, 276 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 7: that he would never do what she did, which I 277 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 7: think is also interesting. It's like he is now able 278 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 7: to see what their age difference was because he is 279 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 7: a thirty something year old man who has daughters. So 280 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 7: you have to also assume that over the course of 281 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 7: time this thing has become clearer and clearer to him 282 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 7: in a way that you can't absorb when you're twelve. 283 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 7: You think you're an adult at twelve, Like I remember 284 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 7: being twelve and thinking like, why do people treat me 285 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 7: like a child. 286 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 6: Like I'm an adult, but twelve year older kids. 287 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 7: You know, my niece and nephewhere kids will past twelve 288 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 7: to be honest in good ways, like I am happy 289 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 7: for them that they got to be children, and it 290 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 7: feels like he really didn't get that. 291 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: So both of these relationships, actually that's I shouldn't even 292 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: use that word. 293 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 3: Let's call them stories Mary Kayla Turno. 294 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: And in Dawson's Creek, the plotline of Miss Jacobs and 295 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: Pacey really get at this trope that is now familiar, 296 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: this idea of the older woman's seductress, right, and it's 297 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: not as if Dawson's is the first to do this, 298 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: Like they mentioned in the show The Graduates, this is 299 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: the video that Miss Jacobs is renting from Pacey in 300 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: that very first scene. Do you remember that hot for 301 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: Teacher song Van Halen nineteen eighty. 302 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 6: Four, Yes, I do remember that. 303 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 7: I mean also The Graduate was like a very popular film, 304 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 7: and also the song from the film Missus Robinson, which 305 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 7: was a Simon and Garfugel song, became really popular, and 306 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 7: it was about the older woman seductress, like it was 307 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 7: sort of like glamorizing her. 308 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: So Dawson's comes in ninety eight, and then comes American 309 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: Pie in nineteen ninety nine, starring Jennifer Coolidge as Stiffler's 310 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: mom who has sex with Stiffler's friend on the pool 311 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: table on prom night and basically cements into the zeitgeist. 312 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 6: The term MILF single moth aged eighteen years. 313 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 7: Well, I like it, and I guess for anyone who 314 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 7: might not know what a milf is, it's an acronym 315 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 7: for mother I'd like to fuck. 316 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: At some point I will go down the rabbit hole 317 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: of looking up the linguistic trends here, because I bet 318 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: there is a spike and usage of that term. 319 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 6: In hundred percent it became. 320 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: Very search and like weird fact that I know it 321 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: becomes one of the most popular search porn terms. 322 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 7: That is a weird, right, I mean, it makes sense 323 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 7: because again that relationship or whatever you call it, an 324 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 7: American pie is like presented in a way that you 325 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 7: can really imagine the boys glamorize and hope for like 326 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 7: that they start looking at their friends moms and being like, 327 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 7: which one of these. 328 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 6: Women is gonna be like my sexual awakening. 329 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: The other thing I need to mention is the fountains 330 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: of Wayne's song Stacy's Mom I Remember, which comes out 331 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: in two thousand and three and has like a really 332 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: crazy music video, and I mean I can still to 333 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: that song. I'm not going to sing here. 334 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 6: But yeah, the thing. 335 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 7: For everyone's sake, neither of us should sing on this podcast. 336 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: God, the song lyrics are literally that Stacy's mom has 337 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: got it going on. She's all I want and I've 338 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 1: waited for so long. I'm not the little boy that 339 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: I used to be. I'm all growing up now. 340 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 6: Baby. Can't you see so awkward for poor Stacy? This 341 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 6: whole thing so awkward. 342 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: Another hot for teacher pop culture reference I want to 343 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: make sure to mention from around this time is actually 344 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: from Saturday Night Live, so Norm MacDonald does this bit 345 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: for a week and update. This is when Mary Kaylaturno 346 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: pleads guilty and he says that she's been branded a 347 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: sex offender or, as the kids referred to her, the 348 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: greatest teacher ever, and like, honestly, lol, it's a good 349 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 1: funny fit. It comes not long after a South Park 350 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: episode makes a similar joke. 351 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 3: He's totally under. 352 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 5: Age, she's taken advantage of him. 353 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 6: You're right, We're sorry. 354 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 3: We need to track this student down and give him 355 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 3: his Luckiest Boy in American medal right away. 356 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: But essentially, what all of these things are saying is 357 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: it to lose your virginity to an adult when you 358 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: were a child, and a hot teacher in particular is. 359 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 7: Worthy of a medal, Well, if you're a boy, exactly. 360 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 7: And actually this sentiment hasn't really changed, honestly, as much 361 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 7: as we'd hope. I saw a Fox Steel's Club not 362 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 7: that long ago about a female teacher in Colorado who'd 363 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 7: been arrested for allegedly having sex with her sixteen. 364 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 6: Year old student. And even now, this was the host's response, 365 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 6: This is what bothers me. Why does that she had 366 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 6: sex with a student? 367 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 5: No that you went to jail for it? 368 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 6: Come on, sixteen year old dad would have died for that. 369 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 3: So we'll pause there. 370 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: We're going to talk more about what has or hasn't 371 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: changed and how Dawson's Creek handles the plot line when 372 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: one of the female characters has sex after the break. 373 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 7: There's another interesting thing that struck me, which is that 374 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 7: at the same time that we're seeing Pacey lose his 375 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 7: virginity to this teacher, there's this other pretty significant plot 376 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 7: line where Dawson has a crush on this girl Jen 377 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 7: who's played by Michelle Williams, and at some point she 378 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 7: admits that she is not a virgin, and he rejects 379 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 7: her over that, Like there's a multiple sort of episode 380 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 7: arc about how upset he is and how disappointed in 381 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 7: her he is, and that he may not be able 382 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 7: to continue to pursue a possible relationship with her because 383 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 7: of her virginity. It's like a very gross storyline, to 384 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 7: be honest, the level of like shock he has around it, 385 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 7: and the shame that she has to like have around it, 386 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 7: how terrible she feels about herself because she's not a virgin, 387 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 7: And that was so strange to me because. 388 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: It's happening at the same time the same basically high 389 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: fiving paces. 390 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 6: Yeah. 391 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 1: And the other thing too, is like you can criticize 392 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: shows like this for showing that double standard, but also 393 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: it is still so probable. Yeah, like that double standard exists, 394 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: So I almost am like, well, at least they're portraying 395 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: it accurately, Like that probably is what happens still today. 396 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: You high five the kid who's sleeping with the teacher 397 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: and losing his virginity to her, and then you scorn 398 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: the girl who is found out to not be a. 399 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 7: Virgin but also just like not a virgin because she's 400 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 7: had sex with a person her own age. It's like 401 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 7: she's having a normal teenage relationship something a lot of 402 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 7: teenagers do, which is have sex in high school that 403 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 7: is not so uncommon. And yet she's portrayed as kind 404 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 7: of the slut and he is portrayed as having the 405 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 7: sexual awakening. It's like a really interesting contrast. 406 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 1: And the very start, I'm so glad you raised that, Susie, 407 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: because there are all these kind of tiny nuggets hidden 408 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 1: in episodes like this. 409 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 3: This is sort of what we wanted to do with 410 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 3: this show. 411 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: But these tiny nuggets that as I was delving into 412 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: research and going down as rabbit hole, I kept noting like, oh, actually, 413 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,479 Speaker 1: this is telling us something larger about society today. This 414 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: is showing us how little has changed. One is the 415 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: way that student teacher relationships have long been kind of minimized, 416 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 1: but more so when it is the woman as perpetrator. 417 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: In one news segment looking back on the Mary Kayla 418 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: Turno case, they actually referred to her as quote the 419 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: last person you would suspect of being a molester of children. 420 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: And I just read that line and I was like, wait, 421 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 1: why because she's a. 422 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 6: Woman, woman, because she's got children. 423 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 7: Great, we just really struggle to see women as hoigh 424 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 7: the potential or the agency to be criminals, to do 425 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 7: criminal things, to do things that we find ugly, because 426 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 7: for some reason, that just feels like it's against the 427 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 7: nature of how we're supposed to perceive women. And we 428 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 7: also struggle with seeing boys as victims as vulnerable. 429 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: Right absolutely, And actually it's worth noting that these cases, 430 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: and I'm talking about cases where the perpetrator is an 431 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: older woman and the victim is often a boy, get 432 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: more media coverage than the male equip and so it's 433 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: like simultaneously we're high fiving, but it's like extra selacious 434 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: and it's getting more media coverage. And there was this 435 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: whole moment in the nineties and early two thousands when 436 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: this is all playing out, when it almost seemed like 437 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 1: pretty female teachers molesting their underage male students was an 438 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: epidemic because it was getting so much attention. 439 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 7: I also remember that there was a lot of discussion 440 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 7: about why this wasn't a good thing, Like it seemed 441 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 7: like that needed to be explained over and over and 442 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 7: over again. Like I remember, because I was quite young, 443 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 7: that these stories were fascinating to me because I couldn't 444 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 7: wrap my head around why a woman would want to 445 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 7: risk her whole life to have sex with a child, 446 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 7: and that that wasn't ever really explored. It was always 447 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 7: just kind of this like salacious thing, like here we 448 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 7: go again, here's another teacher who's done. 449 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 6: This thing right. 450 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 7: But there was not a lot of understanding of why 451 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 7: these things happened. 452 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: And I think another thing we've touched on is that 453 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: the boys in these instances are often portrayed or perceived 454 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 1: as older and more mature and pursuing the older women 455 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 1: like this. We know was certainly the case in Dawson's 456 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: Creek with Pacey, also because that actor was much older 457 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: in real life. And it's notable in that clip we 458 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: heard earlier where Tamara says you're not a boy to Pacey, 459 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: You're a man. 460 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 3: Lol. Actually he's very much boy. 461 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: And in fact, the age of consent in Massachusetts where 462 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: this supposedly takes place is sixteen, and he is age fifteen, 463 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: so it is very much a boy who cannot consent. 464 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: But I think that this plays into the way that 465 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: we sometimes take cases of men's assault less seriously because 466 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 1: we assume that boys always want sex. 467 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 6: Yes, didn't. 468 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 7: Monica has write a good piece in the Washington Post 469 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 7: about this around when Mary Kay Laturno died. 470 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, actually this is quite recently. She's a calumnist for 471 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 1: the Washington Post who writes on gender issues, and she 472 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: did this column about that case and the repercussions of it, 473 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: and she has this line where she says, female students 474 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: abused by male teachers have encountered their own measure of 475 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: victim blame, but not usually accompanied by the same level 476 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: of tittering, the implication that these horny teenage boys probably 477 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: wanted it and were lucky to get it. 478 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 7: Yeah, that really summarizes a lot of what we're saying here. 479 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: The other thing, and you know, in many ways this 480 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: is the whole premise of our show. But there are 481 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: real worlds consequences to the way we talk about this stuff, 482 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: like even the little nuances and language that we keep 483 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: getting at, like is this a relationship? 484 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 3: Is it an assault? 485 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: These actually have impact in the larger world. And so 486 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: while I was searching for studies on this, I found 487 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: this twenty thirteen analysis by the New Jersey Star Ledger 488 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: where they looked at cases of teacher students sex in 489 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: New Jersey. Specifically, there were ninety seven of them and 490 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: they actually found that the men in those cases average 491 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 1: longer jail terms than the women. 492 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 3: Why is that, Well, yeah, because we see that as 493 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 3: a real crime, exactly exactly. 494 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: It's like women are victimized in so many ways and 495 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 1: things are still unequal, But when we talk about this 496 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: issue specifically, we are often minimizing the experiences of the boys. 497 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: It wasn't even until the year two thousand that all 498 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: fifty states in the United States made the language of 499 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: their statutory rape laws gender neutral, meaning that there was 500 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: a minimum age for girls to consent, but not for boys. 501 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 7: One thing we haven't really talked about is that if 502 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 7: you're a boy consuming this, like if you're a teenage 503 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 7: boy in your friend's basement and Seattle watching the show 504 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 7: with you, and you are going through something that is 505 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 7: similar in some way and you have complex and not 506 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 7: great feelings about it, you're being taught that those feelings 507 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 7: are completely invalid. 508 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: You should just be psyched, right, you should be high 509 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: fiving your friends. 510 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 7: And this really gets at something, right, which is that 511 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 7: we adultify boys when they are children. 512 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 6: When they are boys, especially boys of color. 513 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 7: To be clear, right, in this country, if you're a 514 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 7: black boy, you're a man, right, But then when men 515 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 7: become older, when they become men who should be accountable, 516 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 7: we dismiss their bad behavior as, oh, they're. 517 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 6: Just boys, like, oh, boys will be boys. 518 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 7: And love around talk and all these ways in which 519 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 7: we kind of dismiss their agency when it's convenient for 520 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 7: them to dismiss their agency. But when we actually should 521 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,719 Speaker 7: be giving them grace to make the same mistakes as 522 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 7: other children, we refuse to. 523 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 6: Accept that about them. 524 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: So that brings us to has anything changed is maybe 525 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: in fact, rewatching this was actually a good thing because 526 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: it did force us to grapple with some of these 527 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: complexities in how we perceive it. 528 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 7: It's like, I don't feel like I understood the complexity 529 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 7: of this show at all when I watched it the 530 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 7: first time. Because you're neutering it of that complexity as 531 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 7: you present it, it kind of doesn't have a real impact, right. 532 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: And yeah, is it the responsibility of shows to send 533 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: a real message? I don't know, Like, do they have 534 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: to get at that complexity and grapple with it. It 535 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: is interesting, though, because I think shows now that approach 536 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: this subject do have a little bit more complexity and nuance, 537 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: and they pay some attention in many cases to the 538 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: aftermath and also the trauma. 539 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean I think the thing is, obviously there's 540 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 7: this idea or this concern, now how we take art 541 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 7: from previous eras and deal with it, right, because art 542 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,360 Speaker 7: is supposed to reflect the time it's made in, right, 543 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 7: So I guess we don't need it to explore that 544 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 7: complexity because that was the culture. Like, that is how 545 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 7: people saw things in that moment, and part of why 546 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 7: we consume art that was made at a certain time 547 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 7: is to understand what views and culture and zeitgeist was 548 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 7: in that time. 549 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: Well, and to be fair, actually that probably is how 550 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: many people would still pursue. 551 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't even know if that's like something that's changed. 552 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 7: Like, I don't know if you did you watch Pretty 553 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 7: Little Liars there was a student teacher plot and in 554 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 7: that case it was a female student and a male teacher, 555 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 7: but that was also presented as kind of a love story, 556 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 7: and that wasn't that long ago. 557 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 3: And Riverdale too, right, like this is the teen series. 558 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: I think it just ended based on the Archie comics 559 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: where Archie has an affair with his teacher, and was. 560 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 3: The original comics To be clear, okay. 561 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: Okay, good point, and the executive producer behind that show 562 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: had actually worked on Dosa. 563 00:28:58,960 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 5: Like. 564 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: I don't know if those two things are interconnected, but 565 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: just interesting points. 566 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 7: But it is because these shows all feel like they're 567 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 7: kind of part of the same universe, right, Like these 568 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 7: teen shows that were on the WB which is now 569 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 7: the CW even like you know ABC Family or free 570 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 7: Form or whatever it's called now, these they all do 571 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 7: have very similar tropes and themes, and a very common 572 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 7: trope that writers use is this teacher student storyline even now, right, 573 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 7: And I think that's interesting that there's still so much 574 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 7: fascination with this concept. I think it's because lots of 575 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 7: people have crushes on their teachers, so it feels like 576 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 7: a universal experience to sexualize your teachers. What shouldn't be 577 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 7: a universal experience is that your teachers are sexualizing you. 578 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: And remember my friend Rosie, of course, I wanted to 579 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: ask her what the teens she works with might think 580 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: of this relationship today. 581 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 4: So when I think back about Dawson's and thinking about 582 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 4: the kids that I work with, if they were to 583 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 4: be watching it today, they would be appalled in a 584 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 4: good way. They would know that it was wrong, would 585 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 4: know that it's still a problem even if it's a 586 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,719 Speaker 4: female teacher, which I feel like we were in the 587 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 4: infancy of discovery. I also think they would be compelled 588 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 4: by it being a boy and a woman, and him 589 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 4: being tall and cute and allegedly having all of this 590 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 4: sexual prowess. 591 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 5: I think that it would still seem muddy to them. 592 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: The other thing that I feel like is different now 593 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 2: in terms of the kids these days, is that they 594 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 2: have an awareness about sexual abuse and they are inclined 595 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 2: to come in and see us in the counseling center 596 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: at our school, especially girls will come in and talk 597 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 2: about things that have happened to them that make. 598 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 5: Them really uncomfortable, and they will be received in a 599 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 5: place that is like, Yep, this is rough and we 600 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 5: need to help you, and yes, this is a product 601 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 5: a much larger system. 602 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 3: Okay, So where does all this leave us? 603 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: You know, there is something about consuming these stories as 604 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: teenagers that really does stay with you. Yeah, Like I 605 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: and I think my friends and millions of other teens felt. 606 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 3: Like we too were kind of coming of. 607 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: Age with these characters on Dawson's even though they might 608 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: have been a few years older and even though in 609 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: real life they. 610 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 7: Were actually much more older, right, I mean, I wonder 611 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 7: have the actors on Dawson's Creek ever reflected on this 612 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 7: in any way? 613 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, actually they have. 614 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: I mean Joshua Jackson is interesting because he was obviously 615 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: a little bit older, and he also grew up in Vancouver, 616 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: British Columbia, which is just a few hours north of Seattle, 617 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: which is where the Mary Kay Laturno case played out 618 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: at the same time he was recording and filming Dawson, 619 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: So I think he was very aware of it. And 620 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,959 Speaker 1: he was actually asked a couple of years ago in 621 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: an article what he thought now looking back on that 622 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: storyline in Dawson's and he was pretty thoughtful about it. 623 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: What he said was, quote, we still trea teenage female 624 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: sexuality very differently than we teach or treat male teenage sexuality. 625 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: So I think that the show should have judged it differently, 626 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: maybe because it's part and parcel of that double standard. 627 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, I think it's necessary to 628 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: show storylines that have humans making mistakes. 629 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 7: I guess he's making a good point about the double standard, 630 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 7: but is it true that this is just about humans 631 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 7: making mistakes, Like it's not really presented as that much 632 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 7: of a mistake on the show, at least for him. 633 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. I mean it's complicated. I guess in 634 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: some ways. I sort of appreciate though, that they didn't 635 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: turn it into a lesson, Like I don't know that 636 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: I would have responded to a kind of schooldy after 637 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: school special. 638 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 7: Yeah that makes sense. I mean that wouldn't have worked. Like, 639 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 7: it's not like that would have been popular. So part 640 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 7: of it is that you have to present messages in 641 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 7: a way that's like appealing to the audience. 642 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: But I don't know, maybe others have a different interpretation. 643 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: I mean, the show is all available online. I hope 644 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: that those listening might go watch it and tell us 645 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: what you think. You can email us at in retropod 646 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: at gmail, or you can damn us on Instagram at 647 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: in retropod. 648 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 3: Thanks for tuning in. 649 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,959 Speaker 6: This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. 650 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 7: Is there a cultural moment you can't stop thinking about 651 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 7: and want us to explore in a future episode. Email 652 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 7: us at inretropod at gmail dot com, or find us 653 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 7: on Instagram at in retropod. 654 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 655 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: on Apple or Spotify, or wherever you listen. 656 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 7: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 657 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 7: and at Susy b NYC. 658 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 6: Also check out Jessica's books Feminist Fight Club and This 659 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 6: Is Eighteen. 660 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,719 Speaker 1: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media. 661 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 662 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and 663 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: associate producer. 664 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 7: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 665 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 7: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina at Norbel. 666 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 6: Our artwork is from Pentagram. 667 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 7: Additional editing help from Mary and Mike Coscarelli, sound correction 668 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 7: and mastering by Amanda Rosmith. 669 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 6: We are your hosts Susie Bannacharum. 670 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 3: And Jessica Bennett. We're also executive producers. 671 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: For even more, check out in retropod dot com. 672 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 3: See you next week.