1 00:00:16,897 --> 00:00:29,337 Speaker 1: Pushkin Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus. 2 00:00:29,857 --> 00:00:34,417 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts. 3 00:00:35,017 --> 00:00:38,457 Speaker 1: Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my 4 00:00:38,497 --> 00:00:41,177 Speaker 1: weekly Bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a 5 00:00:41,217 --> 00:00:43,617 Speaker 1: book agent and what I'm watching on TV that week. 6 00:00:44,217 --> 00:00:47,977 Speaker 1: You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts 7 00:00:48,297 --> 00:00:53,177 Speaker 1: like Revisionist History, Cautionary Tales, and The Happiness Lab. Sign 8 00:00:53,257 --> 00:00:55,577 Speaker 1: up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple 9 00:00:55,657 --> 00:01:05,217 Speaker 1: Podcasts or at Pushkin dot m. When The New York 10 00:01:05,257 --> 00:01:08,937 Speaker 1: Times magazine journalist Nicole Hannah Jones started work on the 11 00:01:09,017 --> 00:01:13,137 Speaker 1: sixty nineteen project in twenty nineteen, she realized it was 12 00:01:13,177 --> 00:01:16,577 Speaker 1: a project she had actually been working towards all of 13 00:01:16,577 --> 00:01:20,537 Speaker 1: her life. I don't do work for a claim. I 14 00:01:20,577 --> 00:01:23,697 Speaker 1: don't do work because I'm trying to get somewhere in life. 15 00:01:23,737 --> 00:01:25,617 Speaker 1: I do the work because it's the work that I'm 16 00:01:25,617 --> 00:01:28,777 Speaker 1: called to do. In high school, she learned about the 17 00:01:28,857 --> 00:01:32,417 Speaker 1: significance of the year sixteen nineteen to African Americans, and 18 00:01:32,497 --> 00:01:36,257 Speaker 1: it stuck with her. Sixteen nineteen marked the beginning of 19 00:01:36,257 --> 00:01:40,817 Speaker 1: slavery in America as a nation, and four hundred years later, 20 00:01:41,137 --> 00:01:44,457 Speaker 1: Nicole's on a mission to make sure everybody knows about this. 21 00:01:45,017 --> 00:01:48,697 Speaker 1: I know to whom I belong, I know what this 22 00:01:48,737 --> 00:01:50,897 Speaker 1: work means to the people that I wrote it for, 23 00:01:51,457 --> 00:01:54,617 Speaker 1: and I know that this work is right. I know 24 00:01:54,697 --> 00:01:58,417 Speaker 1: that we are deserving of having our story told this way. 25 00:01:58,737 --> 00:02:03,497 Speaker 1: America would not exist without us, It just wouldn't. Nicole 26 00:02:03,697 --> 00:02:06,897 Speaker 1: is right. We do deserve to have our story told 27 00:02:06,977 --> 00:02:10,617 Speaker 1: and told with respect. That's why in twenty twenty one, 28 00:02:11,097 --> 00:02:14,857 Speaker 1: she published the sixteen nineteen Project, A New Origin Story. 29 00:02:15,497 --> 00:02:19,097 Speaker 1: It's an anthology of essays, fiction and poetry by known 30 00:02:19,137 --> 00:02:39,417 Speaker 1: Black authors, historians, poets, and artists. Welcome to Well Read 31 00:02:39,457 --> 00:02:43,097 Speaker 1: Black Girl, the literary kickback you didn't even know you needed. 32 00:02:43,497 --> 00:02:49,577 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Glory Adam, and this week I'm speaking 33 00:02:49,617 --> 00:02:53,537 Speaker 1: with Nicole Hannah Jones. We talk about how social justice 34 00:02:53,537 --> 00:02:57,097 Speaker 1: showed up in her childhood, her writing process as a journalist, 35 00:02:57,377 --> 00:03:01,417 Speaker 1: and why she can finally claim Howard University as her own. 36 00:03:07,377 --> 00:03:10,457 Speaker 1: Hey girl, how's it going. How are you feeling today? Hey? 37 00:03:10,537 --> 00:03:13,657 Speaker 1: I'm doing great and thank you for having me on. 38 00:03:13,697 --> 00:03:17,857 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to the discussion. So, first question, how 39 00:03:17,897 --> 00:03:21,937 Speaker 1: did reading and writing show up in your childhood? Oh? Man, 40 00:03:22,217 --> 00:03:26,257 Speaker 1: I cannot remember a time where I was not both 41 00:03:26,297 --> 00:03:29,737 Speaker 1: an avid reader and a writer. Some of my earliest 42 00:03:29,777 --> 00:03:33,857 Speaker 1: memories are reading the newspaper with my dad. I was 43 00:03:33,897 --> 00:03:36,777 Speaker 1: always surrounded by books. I was always going to the 44 00:03:36,817 --> 00:03:39,177 Speaker 1: library as soon as I got old enough to go 45 00:03:39,257 --> 00:03:41,737 Speaker 1: by myself. I would just walk. I always have my 46 00:03:41,817 --> 00:03:43,937 Speaker 1: nose in a book, whether we were in a car 47 00:03:44,617 --> 00:03:46,257 Speaker 1: or I was sitting in the living room while my 48 00:03:46,257 --> 00:03:50,417 Speaker 1: family was watching television. I just always loved books, and 49 00:03:50,537 --> 00:03:54,297 Speaker 1: I always used writing to express myself. I kept a 50 00:03:54,377 --> 00:03:57,897 Speaker 1: journal from a young age, and then I would write poetry. 51 00:03:57,937 --> 00:04:00,457 Speaker 1: I would write short stories that I had in my head. 52 00:04:00,577 --> 00:04:02,977 Speaker 1: So I always feel like those two things go together. 53 00:04:03,777 --> 00:04:07,177 Speaker 1: I love reading the acknowledgement of folks after you write 54 00:04:07,217 --> 00:04:11,457 Speaker 1: a book. But one thing that stood out with your acknowledgements, 55 00:04:11,577 --> 00:04:16,177 Speaker 1: there is a person, mister ray Dial, that you shout 56 00:04:16,217 --> 00:04:18,657 Speaker 1: out and you give so much love. Can you tell 57 00:04:18,697 --> 00:04:22,657 Speaker 1: me about him and how he influenced you? Absolutely? Mister 58 00:04:22,777 --> 00:04:26,537 Speaker 1: ray Dial was my African American Studies teacher, and he 59 00:04:26,657 --> 00:04:29,537 Speaker 1: was the only black male teacher I ever had. And 60 00:04:29,977 --> 00:04:34,257 Speaker 1: I took this one semester Black Studies Elective, and I say, 61 00:04:34,297 --> 00:04:37,217 Speaker 1: I mean truly that class I was transformative for me. 62 00:04:37,697 --> 00:04:41,977 Speaker 1: Not only was mister Dial just an amazing teacher, he 63 00:04:42,097 --> 00:04:45,057 Speaker 1: was funny, he was warm, he was teaching that class 64 00:04:45,097 --> 00:04:47,537 Speaker 1: like it was college level because he had taught at 65 00:04:47,537 --> 00:04:51,417 Speaker 1: the college level before. He was asked to come to 66 00:04:51,417 --> 00:04:53,617 Speaker 1: work in my school district, and he was brought there 67 00:04:53,657 --> 00:04:56,977 Speaker 1: specifically because I was at a white high school where 68 00:04:57,057 --> 00:04:59,257 Speaker 1: most of the black kids were bust in and there 69 00:04:59,257 --> 00:05:01,417 Speaker 1: were just a lot of racial issues at the high school, 70 00:05:01,417 --> 00:05:04,977 Speaker 1: and so they recruited him to come help deal with that. 71 00:05:05,257 --> 00:05:08,177 Speaker 1: And the way when you say racial issues habin at 72 00:05:08,177 --> 00:05:11,337 Speaker 1: your high school, like what exactly did your experience? So again, 73 00:05:11,497 --> 00:05:14,537 Speaker 1: our high school was the white high school, and we 74 00:05:14,537 --> 00:05:18,137 Speaker 1: were busting as part of a voluntary school desegregation program. 75 00:05:18,217 --> 00:05:20,297 Speaker 1: So nearly all of the black kids in the high school, 76 00:05:20,497 --> 00:05:23,097 Speaker 1: we were about twenty percent of the population, were busted 77 00:05:23,097 --> 00:05:25,057 Speaker 1: in every day from the east side of town, which 78 00:05:25,137 --> 00:05:27,257 Speaker 1: was where all the black people lived, into a high 79 00:05:27,257 --> 00:05:31,817 Speaker 1: school that wasn't ours. And every day students and teachers 80 00:05:32,377 --> 00:05:35,017 Speaker 1: made us aware that the school wasn't ours. So there 81 00:05:35,057 --> 00:05:40,057 Speaker 1: were racial fights, we had protests, I led school walkouts. 82 00:05:40,417 --> 00:05:42,977 Speaker 1: There was just a lot of racial tension, and there 83 00:05:43,057 --> 00:05:45,977 Speaker 1: was a pretty deep racial divide in the school. I 84 00:05:46,057 --> 00:05:48,457 Speaker 1: was one of the only black kids in my higher 85 00:05:48,457 --> 00:05:51,737 Speaker 1: academic courses. All of the other black kids were in 86 00:05:51,857 --> 00:05:55,577 Speaker 1: what was considered the general ed and lower academic courses, 87 00:05:55,617 --> 00:05:58,297 Speaker 1: and there were just tensions in the cafeteria, there were 88 00:05:58,337 --> 00:06:02,337 Speaker 1: tensions after school. It was a fraught time, and mister 89 00:06:02,457 --> 00:06:05,377 Speaker 1: Dial was recruited. I'm not sure if he was recruited 90 00:06:05,457 --> 00:06:08,217 Speaker 1: to help keep black students in line, but what they 91 00:06:08,297 --> 00:06:12,017 Speaker 1: ended up getting was a teacher who was helping turn 92 00:06:12,137 --> 00:06:15,657 Speaker 1: us into little mini revolutionary. So my best girlfriend from 93 00:06:15,737 --> 00:06:19,817 Speaker 1: high school we founded an underground student newspaper in opposition 94 00:06:19,857 --> 00:06:23,177 Speaker 1: to our white school newspaper. Oh wait, you have to 95 00:06:23,177 --> 00:06:26,577 Speaker 1: tell me what was the name of Mister dal could 96 00:06:26,617 --> 00:06:29,497 Speaker 1: tell you. He remembers every single thing. I cannot remember 97 00:06:29,617 --> 00:06:31,737 Speaker 1: the name of it, but it was something black, I 98 00:06:31,817 --> 00:06:35,097 Speaker 1: know that. And he would sneak and let us into 99 00:06:35,097 --> 00:06:39,177 Speaker 1: the teacher's lounge to print our newspaper. Yeah, and he 100 00:06:39,177 --> 00:06:41,657 Speaker 1: would advise us, right, okay, you're gonna do this, walk out. 101 00:06:41,777 --> 00:06:43,177 Speaker 1: This is what you need to do so you don't 102 00:06:43,177 --> 00:06:46,377 Speaker 1: get expelled. He was that kind of teacher where he 103 00:06:46,417 --> 00:06:49,617 Speaker 1: believed in our right to assert ourselves. He understood our struggles, 104 00:06:49,657 --> 00:06:51,857 Speaker 1: and he was trying to guide us so that we 105 00:06:51,897 --> 00:06:55,457 Speaker 1: could both protest what we thought was wrong about the school, 106 00:06:55,777 --> 00:06:57,937 Speaker 1: but do it in a way that they weren't going 107 00:06:57,977 --> 00:07:00,497 Speaker 1: to be able to rob us of our education. And 108 00:07:01,097 --> 00:07:04,257 Speaker 1: he was just amazing. He is the epitome of that 109 00:07:05,017 --> 00:07:07,857 Speaker 1: educator that changes your life. And to this day, I 110 00:07:07,857 --> 00:07:09,977 Speaker 1: still talked to mister dal When I did the book 111 00:07:10,057 --> 00:07:13,137 Speaker 1: launch or the sixteen nineteen project in my hometown, I 112 00:07:13,177 --> 00:07:14,577 Speaker 1: called mister Dow and I was like, you have to 113 00:07:14,577 --> 00:07:17,377 Speaker 1: be on stage with me. And so my final project 114 00:07:17,457 --> 00:07:20,177 Speaker 1: in his class, he said to me he still had it. 115 00:07:20,537 --> 00:07:23,697 Speaker 1: I graduated in nineteen ninety four and he still had 116 00:07:23,737 --> 00:07:26,297 Speaker 1: my final project and he actually mailed it to me. 117 00:07:26,377 --> 00:07:28,457 Speaker 1: And I was like, mister Dow, how could you even 118 00:07:28,537 --> 00:07:31,817 Speaker 1: keep something that that is that old and know where 119 00:07:31,817 --> 00:07:34,217 Speaker 1: it is? But he said he just knew, he knew that. 120 00:07:34,297 --> 00:07:36,377 Speaker 1: He was like, I didn't keep most kids final project, 121 00:07:36,457 --> 00:07:39,777 Speaker 1: but I knew I needed to keep yours, and sixteen 122 00:07:39,857 --> 00:07:41,617 Speaker 1: nineteen was in there. And actually I had written a 123 00:07:41,617 --> 00:07:44,217 Speaker 1: little piece on the Roan Bennett in my final project, 124 00:07:44,337 --> 00:07:46,977 Speaker 1: so it was kind of amazing. I had completely forgotten 125 00:07:46,977 --> 00:07:49,977 Speaker 1: about it, but mister dal had not, and to see 126 00:07:49,977 --> 00:07:53,337 Speaker 1: that from you starting your own underground newspaper to like 127 00:07:53,457 --> 00:07:56,657 Speaker 1: leading protests with the support of mister Dial when you 128 00:07:56,897 --> 00:08:01,097 Speaker 1: got bust back to your house, what was mister Hannah saying, Like, 129 00:08:01,137 --> 00:08:03,417 Speaker 1: what was your father thinking? Was he in support of this? 130 00:08:03,577 --> 00:08:07,057 Speaker 1: What was your family's response? Were they in line with 131 00:08:07,097 --> 00:08:10,457 Speaker 1: it or did they push for like more respectability politics. 132 00:08:10,737 --> 00:08:13,777 Speaker 1: I definitely did not come from a household had engaged 133 00:08:13,777 --> 00:08:18,057 Speaker 1: in respectability politics. My family's very very working class. My 134 00:08:18,177 --> 00:08:21,177 Speaker 1: dad loved to cuss, love to drink, love to throw 135 00:08:21,217 --> 00:08:24,137 Speaker 1: a party, So we were not the type of household 136 00:08:24,177 --> 00:08:26,697 Speaker 1: that engaged in that. Now they wanted to make sure 137 00:08:26,777 --> 00:08:28,737 Speaker 1: I was going to be successful. I was also raised 138 00:08:28,737 --> 00:08:31,297 Speaker 1: in a household where all three of us girls were 139 00:08:31,297 --> 00:08:33,377 Speaker 1: told we were going to go to college. They didn't 140 00:08:33,377 --> 00:08:35,497 Speaker 1: care what we studied, but we were going to go 141 00:08:35,577 --> 00:08:39,017 Speaker 1: to college. So what my parents mainly wanted was to 142 00:08:39,057 --> 00:08:41,457 Speaker 1: make sure I wasn't doing anything that was going to 143 00:08:41,537 --> 00:08:44,777 Speaker 1: mess me up academically. But they were in support. I mean, 144 00:08:44,777 --> 00:08:48,337 Speaker 1: they weren't surprised. Mister Dow gave me kind of the 145 00:08:48,377 --> 00:08:52,737 Speaker 1: book knowledge that I needed, but my politics were already there. 146 00:08:52,897 --> 00:08:55,537 Speaker 1: I grew up in a social justice household. My mom 147 00:08:55,617 --> 00:08:58,097 Speaker 1: was taking us to protests even when I was a child. 148 00:08:58,137 --> 00:09:01,777 Speaker 1: My mom was heavy into her labor union. We went 149 00:09:01,777 --> 00:09:04,497 Speaker 1: to a social justice Catholic church. Like this was really 150 00:09:04,537 --> 00:09:07,417 Speaker 1: just part of who I was as a child. But 151 00:09:07,777 --> 00:09:10,977 Speaker 1: this is the danger of an education because I didn't 152 00:09:11,017 --> 00:09:16,497 Speaker 1: have the knowledge of black political struggle of black history. 153 00:09:16,697 --> 00:09:19,257 Speaker 1: And once I started putting those two things together, I 154 00:09:19,337 --> 00:09:31,057 Speaker 1: became an incorrigible student. Let me say that, what were 155 00:09:31,217 --> 00:09:33,577 Speaker 1: one or two books that you read that lets you know, like, yes, 156 00:09:33,697 --> 00:09:36,097 Speaker 1: was it Boldwin, was it Morrison? Do you have some 157 00:09:36,137 --> 00:09:38,457 Speaker 1: authors that come to mind immediately? This is going to 158 00:09:38,537 --> 00:09:42,937 Speaker 1: be a very revealing answer because I talked to Tanahazi 159 00:09:43,017 --> 00:09:45,657 Speaker 1: a lot about this. I didn't read really any black 160 00:09:45,697 --> 00:09:49,737 Speaker 1: literature growing up. I was being exposed to Black historians, 161 00:09:50,137 --> 00:09:53,817 Speaker 1: African Origins of Civilization, those type of books, but I 162 00:09:53,857 --> 00:09:56,057 Speaker 1: wasn't reading literature. I didn't read Bald until I was 163 00:09:56,057 --> 00:09:58,457 Speaker 1: in my thirties. I didn't read Tony Morrison until I 164 00:09:58,497 --> 00:10:00,817 Speaker 1: was in my twenties. And I think you can actually 165 00:10:00,857 --> 00:10:04,057 Speaker 1: see that in my writing, right, I'm not a super 166 00:10:04,097 --> 00:10:06,697 Speaker 1: literary writer because I didn't grow up with that The 167 00:10:06,817 --> 00:10:09,777 Speaker 1: only black literature I really read when I was in 168 00:10:09,857 --> 00:10:14,097 Speaker 1: high school was Length and Hughes. And that's because at 169 00:10:14,137 --> 00:10:16,577 Speaker 1: my high school we had one poem by Length and Hughes, 170 00:10:16,577 --> 00:10:19,297 Speaker 1: a Dream Deferred. And then I decided to do my 171 00:10:19,777 --> 00:10:22,217 Speaker 1: senior ap project on Length and Hughes, and I went 172 00:10:22,257 --> 00:10:24,537 Speaker 1: to the library and checked out all of his short stories, 173 00:10:24,577 --> 00:10:27,097 Speaker 1: all of his poetry. And then when I got to college, 174 00:10:27,377 --> 00:10:30,097 Speaker 1: I took a class on the Harlem Renaissance, and that's 175 00:10:30,137 --> 00:10:33,217 Speaker 1: where I was for the first time exposed to Zoro 176 00:10:33,297 --> 00:10:37,017 Speaker 1: Neil Hurston. I took an entire class on Richard Right. 177 00:10:37,217 --> 00:10:39,617 Speaker 1: So that was the first time I actually had any 178 00:10:39,617 --> 00:10:43,697 Speaker 1: exposure to black literature because I didn't come from a 179 00:10:43,817 --> 00:10:46,137 Speaker 1: literary household. I talk about this in the preface for 180 00:10:46,137 --> 00:10:49,377 Speaker 1: the book. My mom loved like Daniel Still romance novels, 181 00:10:49,377 --> 00:10:52,177 Speaker 1: and my dad loved westerns. I'm so glad you brought 182 00:10:52,257 --> 00:10:54,777 Speaker 1: up Length and Hughes because I was surprised by American 183 00:10:54,817 --> 00:10:58,337 Speaker 1: Heartbreak sixteen nineteen. So I have read so much Lengths 184 00:10:58,337 --> 00:11:00,097 Speaker 1: in Hughes and it's like just one of the core 185 00:11:00,217 --> 00:11:03,057 Speaker 1: foundational poets that you read as a black artist, as 186 00:11:03,057 --> 00:11:05,617 Speaker 1: a black person, you know, length and Hughes, and everyone 187 00:11:05,657 --> 00:11:09,337 Speaker 1: refers to dream Deferred, But I had never read American Heartbreak. 188 00:11:09,417 --> 00:11:11,577 Speaker 1: So did you make that correlation early? Is that something 189 00:11:11,617 --> 00:11:13,657 Speaker 1: you knew from your studies as a child, or it 190 00:11:13,697 --> 00:11:15,177 Speaker 1: was later on that you're like, oh my god, he 191 00:11:15,217 --> 00:11:17,937 Speaker 1: was writing about the same thing. This was after the 192 00:11:18,017 --> 00:11:22,777 Speaker 1: sixteen nineteen project originally published. So no, and I've read 193 00:11:22,937 --> 00:11:25,537 Speaker 1: I mean I've probably read more lengthy hughes than your 194 00:11:25,577 --> 00:11:28,537 Speaker 1: average person. I literally read all of his short stories everything. 195 00:11:28,857 --> 00:11:30,617 Speaker 1: By the way, short stories are amazing. One of my 196 00:11:30,657 --> 00:11:33,057 Speaker 1: favorite books is The Ways of Wife Folks, which I 197 00:11:33,057 --> 00:11:34,897 Speaker 1: actually have with me. I carried it with me sometimes 198 00:11:34,937 --> 00:11:38,017 Speaker 1: because I just love rereading the short stories. But after 199 00:11:38,057 --> 00:11:41,177 Speaker 1: the sixteen nineteen project published, someone on Twitter, I think 200 00:11:41,217 --> 00:11:43,377 Speaker 1: it's the Binike Library. I think they might have his 201 00:11:43,457 --> 00:11:47,257 Speaker 1: papers shared the poem on Twitter and then someone tagged 202 00:11:47,297 --> 00:11:49,257 Speaker 1: me in it, and I was like, oh my god, 203 00:11:49,537 --> 00:11:53,097 Speaker 1: my favorite poet was writing about sixteen nineteen. And then 204 00:11:53,137 --> 00:11:55,337 Speaker 1: I realized, you know, the more I've done this project, 205 00:11:55,417 --> 00:11:59,777 Speaker 1: like doctor King was talking about sixteen nineteen all of 206 00:11:59,817 --> 00:12:02,457 Speaker 1: the time, but never in any of the speeches that 207 00:12:02,937 --> 00:12:04,817 Speaker 1: I ever read or that they talked about. And you 208 00:12:04,897 --> 00:12:09,937 Speaker 1: realized that within certain circles sixteen nineteen, it always stood 209 00:12:10,017 --> 00:12:13,257 Speaker 1: in as a starting point as this lineage, but it 210 00:12:13,297 --> 00:12:15,257 Speaker 1: had been just largely a race from kind of the 211 00:12:15,257 --> 00:12:19,457 Speaker 1: common memory, right, And that's the key word, the common memory. 212 00:12:19,537 --> 00:12:21,857 Speaker 1: So now that I've read this book and we've been 213 00:12:21,897 --> 00:12:24,657 Speaker 1: having conversations and it's part of the public consciousness, I 214 00:12:24,817 --> 00:12:26,937 Speaker 1: see it all the time, and I don't think I 215 00:12:26,977 --> 00:12:31,937 Speaker 1: had any awareness previously. And it's especially being a student 216 00:12:32,217 --> 00:12:34,897 Speaker 1: at Howard and I feel like I'm a well rounded 217 00:12:34,977 --> 00:12:36,937 Speaker 1: black person, like I do all these things. I'm like, 218 00:12:36,937 --> 00:12:40,097 Speaker 1: how did we miss us? Because we weren't taught. I 219 00:12:40,257 --> 00:12:42,817 Speaker 1: want to know when did you first become aware of 220 00:12:42,817 --> 00:12:45,537 Speaker 1: it to be wells? Because you were talking about like 221 00:12:45,697 --> 00:12:47,977 Speaker 1: history and all these things you were reading. Was she 222 00:12:48,177 --> 00:12:50,937 Speaker 1: part of what you were reading with mister dial and 223 00:12:51,017 --> 00:12:54,457 Speaker 1: your household was not much later too? So I have 224 00:12:54,617 --> 00:12:57,577 Speaker 1: racked my brain about this, and I feel like I 225 00:12:57,617 --> 00:12:59,457 Speaker 1: can't remember when I didn't know her name. I mean, 226 00:12:59,497 --> 00:13:02,057 Speaker 1: I have these pictures in my head of Black History 227 00:13:02,137 --> 00:13:05,017 Speaker 1: Month and our teachers would put up like five great 228 00:13:05,057 --> 00:13:08,057 Speaker 1: Black historical figures and they looked like, you know, those 229 00:13:08,097 --> 00:13:11,817 Speaker 1: little Victorian brooches. It would be like a picture like 230 00:13:11,857 --> 00:13:13,537 Speaker 1: that up on the wall, and that I'DA. B Wells 231 00:13:13,577 --> 00:13:17,417 Speaker 1: was one of those, along with Frederick Douglas, George Washington Carver, 232 00:13:17,857 --> 00:13:20,577 Speaker 1: and Harriet Tubman, and they said she was a journalist, 233 00:13:20,697 --> 00:13:23,497 Speaker 1: but didn't say what type of journalism she was doing, 234 00:13:23,537 --> 00:13:25,697 Speaker 1: what was the subject of her journalism. So I knew 235 00:13:25,737 --> 00:13:28,337 Speaker 1: her name, but I really didn't know anything else about 236 00:13:28,377 --> 00:13:31,457 Speaker 1: her except that she was an important historical figure. And 237 00:13:31,497 --> 00:13:34,017 Speaker 1: then when I was at Notre Dame, I was an 238 00:13:34,057 --> 00:13:37,257 Speaker 1: African American studies major, and I was very nerdy, I 239 00:13:37,297 --> 00:13:40,377 Speaker 1: still am, and so I would go through the stacks 240 00:13:40,417 --> 00:13:43,577 Speaker 1: in the bookstore and see what teachers were assigning in 241 00:13:43,617 --> 00:13:46,137 Speaker 1: classes that I wasn't able to take, and then I 242 00:13:46,177 --> 00:13:49,297 Speaker 1: would buy those books. And one of the books I 243 00:13:49,337 --> 00:13:53,057 Speaker 1: saw was the autobiography that Ida b Wells wrote, and 244 00:13:53,097 --> 00:13:55,817 Speaker 1: I was like, hum, I don't really know who she is, 245 00:13:55,857 --> 00:13:57,417 Speaker 1: Like I know her name, but I don't really know 246 00:13:57,457 --> 00:13:59,737 Speaker 1: who she is. And so I started flipping through it 247 00:13:59,777 --> 00:14:02,297 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, this woman wasn't 248 00:14:02,297 --> 00:14:06,457 Speaker 1: no joke. And so I bought the autobiography and after 249 00:14:06,497 --> 00:14:08,657 Speaker 1: I read that, I was just like, this is my 250 00:14:08,697 --> 00:14:13,097 Speaker 1: spiritual godmother, right This is the model of a black 251 00:14:13,177 --> 00:14:16,417 Speaker 1: woman coming fully into her power and using her voice 252 00:14:16,417 --> 00:14:19,297 Speaker 1: for the benefit of her people, and being fearless and courageous. 253 00:14:19,497 --> 00:14:22,977 Speaker 1: So you had this experience with mister Dial. You were 254 00:14:23,017 --> 00:14:25,097 Speaker 1: just starting to decide what you wanted to be when 255 00:14:25,097 --> 00:14:28,057 Speaker 1: you grew up. Why did you decide to actually become 256 00:14:28,057 --> 00:14:32,337 Speaker 1: a journalist? So you know, I grew up in Waterloo, Iowa, 257 00:14:32,377 --> 00:14:35,137 Speaker 1: and I always say, there aren't a lot of black 258 00:14:35,137 --> 00:14:37,337 Speaker 1: people in Iowa, but there's still enough to segregate us. 259 00:14:37,537 --> 00:14:40,897 Speaker 1: So that's why we were part of a bussing program, 260 00:14:40,977 --> 00:14:43,817 Speaker 1: and we faced a lot of discrimination in the school 261 00:14:43,817 --> 00:14:46,257 Speaker 1: and a lot of stereotypes about the black side of 262 00:14:46,257 --> 00:14:48,777 Speaker 1: town being dangerous, about the students who were coming from 263 00:14:48,777 --> 00:14:50,817 Speaker 1: the black side of town being dangerous, about us not 264 00:14:50,897 --> 00:14:53,617 Speaker 1: being as smart. And to be clear, I said, I 265 00:14:53,657 --> 00:14:56,577 Speaker 1: did read newspapers my whole life. I subscribed to Time 266 00:14:56,617 --> 00:14:59,297 Speaker 1: magazine starting in the seventh grade. I got my first 267 00:14:59,377 --> 00:15:01,337 Speaker 1: letter to the editor published when I was eleven years 268 00:15:01,337 --> 00:15:06,097 Speaker 1: old about Jesse Jackson. And I told you I was nerdy. 269 00:15:07,457 --> 00:15:10,097 Speaker 1: You know, I was first in the nation primary and 270 00:15:10,177 --> 00:15:13,457 Speaker 1: this was teen eighty eight and Jesse Jackson was running 271 00:15:13,457 --> 00:15:15,777 Speaker 1: to become president, and he didn't do very well in 272 00:15:15,857 --> 00:15:18,377 Speaker 1: the primary. And this tells you how to nerd am. 273 00:15:18,377 --> 00:15:20,177 Speaker 1: Because I'm eleven years old, I'm paying attention to the 274 00:15:20,217 --> 00:15:23,577 Speaker 1: presidential primary. And I felt he didn't do well because 275 00:15:23,577 --> 00:15:26,337 Speaker 1: he was black, at least partly, And so I wrote 276 00:15:26,337 --> 00:15:29,417 Speaker 1: a letter to the editor and I just said I 277 00:15:29,457 --> 00:15:31,057 Speaker 1: felt like he was a good candidate and we should 278 00:15:31,097 --> 00:15:33,897 Speaker 1: have given him a better chance, and that one day 279 00:15:33,937 --> 00:15:35,577 Speaker 1: we were going to have a black president, whether we 280 00:15:35,617 --> 00:15:44,497 Speaker 1: liked it or not. Eleven eleven Obama, It's going to happen. 281 00:15:45,017 --> 00:15:47,377 Speaker 1: And every day after I sent the letter in, I 282 00:15:47,417 --> 00:15:50,577 Speaker 1: would rush home from school look in the newspaper to 283 00:15:50,577 --> 00:15:52,697 Speaker 1: see how they published it. In one day they did, 284 00:15:53,097 --> 00:15:55,417 Speaker 1: and I just remember feeling like, oh, I can see 285 00:15:55,457 --> 00:15:58,017 Speaker 1: something I don't like and I can write about it. 286 00:15:58,137 --> 00:16:00,777 Speaker 1: And I might not change people's minds, but I can 287 00:16:00,817 --> 00:16:03,857 Speaker 1: force people to at least grapple and acknowledge how I 288 00:16:03,897 --> 00:16:06,377 Speaker 1: feel about it. So the idea that I might be 289 00:16:06,377 --> 00:16:09,817 Speaker 1: a journalist was there for a pretty long time. And 290 00:16:09,857 --> 00:16:12,937 Speaker 1: then I only aplied to one college. I only applied 291 00:16:12,937 --> 00:16:16,057 Speaker 1: to Notre Dame because I believed I needed to go 292 00:16:16,137 --> 00:16:19,617 Speaker 1: to a prestigious college, because I felt as a black girl, 293 00:16:19,697 --> 00:16:22,137 Speaker 1: I had to have a certain credential to try to 294 00:16:22,217 --> 00:16:25,697 Speaker 1: mitigate racism. And I had to go close to home 295 00:16:25,857 --> 00:16:28,257 Speaker 1: because my family was working class. They weren't going to 296 00:16:28,297 --> 00:16:30,017 Speaker 1: be able to fly me home. If I wanted to 297 00:16:30,057 --> 00:16:32,617 Speaker 1: come home, I had to be within driving distance, and 298 00:16:33,617 --> 00:16:37,737 Speaker 1: Notre Dame did not offer journalism. So I studied my 299 00:16:37,777 --> 00:16:40,217 Speaker 1: first love. My first love really is history. I studied 300 00:16:40,257 --> 00:16:44,257 Speaker 1: history in African American studies and considered maybe getting my 301 00:16:44,297 --> 00:16:48,137 Speaker 1: PhD in history and being a historian. But I ultimately 302 00:16:48,217 --> 00:16:51,497 Speaker 1: decided that journalism could wed the best of both of 303 00:16:51,497 --> 00:16:54,337 Speaker 1: those things. I could be writing about contemporary society. I 304 00:16:54,377 --> 00:16:59,417 Speaker 1: could write about inequality today and hopefully try to work 305 00:16:59,457 --> 00:17:01,937 Speaker 1: in a way to advance our people. But I could 306 00:17:02,017 --> 00:17:04,697 Speaker 1: use history in my writing. And that's when I decided 307 00:17:04,817 --> 00:17:07,737 Speaker 1: for sure that I wanted to become a journalist. After 308 00:17:07,777 --> 00:17:10,337 Speaker 1: the break, Nicole and I dig deeper into her process 309 00:17:10,377 --> 00:17:14,617 Speaker 1: of creating the sixteen nineteen project, her writing practices, and 310 00:17:14,737 --> 00:17:28,457 Speaker 1: how she ended up in my alma mater, Howard University. 311 00:17:30,497 --> 00:17:33,537 Speaker 1: I'm Glory Adam, and you're listening to well read Black Girl. 312 00:17:33,897 --> 00:17:37,617 Speaker 1: I'm joined today by Nicole Hannah Jones pulled to prize 313 00:17:37,657 --> 00:17:41,617 Speaker 1: winning journalists and the author of the sixteen nineteen Project. 314 00:17:46,897 --> 00:17:48,977 Speaker 1: Can we get in your mind a little bit and 315 00:17:49,057 --> 00:17:52,377 Speaker 1: just the process of when you're crafting a story, walkway 316 00:17:52,377 --> 00:17:56,297 Speaker 1: through the research process of deciding that this was the 317 00:17:56,337 --> 00:17:59,217 Speaker 1: book to write, and how you even approach the editors 318 00:17:59,217 --> 00:18:01,017 Speaker 1: at The New York Times. It's very clear that they've 319 00:18:01,057 --> 00:18:03,737 Speaker 1: been supportive of you from the beginning. There is so 320 00:18:03,817 --> 00:18:07,577 Speaker 1: much what feels just like a collective care when it 321 00:18:07,617 --> 00:18:09,817 Speaker 1: comes to publishing this work and making sure that you're 322 00:18:09,857 --> 00:18:12,977 Speaker 1: at the forefront and you're able to really curate it 323 00:18:13,017 --> 00:18:15,457 Speaker 1: the way you want. Can you talk about the contributors, 324 00:18:16,097 --> 00:18:19,297 Speaker 1: even the titles of each chapter? How did this all 325 00:18:19,297 --> 00:18:22,497 Speaker 1: come together? Yeah? I feel like in some ways I've 326 00:18:22,497 --> 00:18:25,817 Speaker 1: been working towards the sixteen nineteen Project my entire career. 327 00:18:26,377 --> 00:18:28,537 Speaker 1: I became a journalist because I wanted to write about 328 00:18:28,537 --> 00:18:31,057 Speaker 1: black people, and I wanted to write about racial inequality. 329 00:18:31,737 --> 00:18:35,697 Speaker 1: But I wanted to do investigative reporting around racial inequality 330 00:18:35,777 --> 00:18:40,017 Speaker 1: because I've always felt that so much reporting around race 331 00:18:40,097 --> 00:18:44,457 Speaker 1: is superficial, that it's really just listing everything that black 332 00:18:44,457 --> 00:18:47,377 Speaker 1: people suffer from, as if no one or no thing 333 00:18:47,497 --> 00:18:51,097 Speaker 1: is causing that suffering, and as someone who studies history 334 00:18:51,097 --> 00:18:55,297 Speaker 1: and love's history, I know that history for me explain 335 00:18:55,377 --> 00:18:58,897 Speaker 1: the architecture of inequality, and so in journalism you could 336 00:18:58,937 --> 00:19:02,337 Speaker 1: do the same thing. And almost everything that I've approached, 337 00:19:02,337 --> 00:19:04,817 Speaker 1: as you said, most of my career it was always 338 00:19:04,857 --> 00:19:08,657 Speaker 1: how can I help people understand this modern phenomenon by 339 00:19:08,657 --> 00:19:12,257 Speaker 1: helping them understand the history and the tensional way that 340 00:19:12,337 --> 00:19:15,817 Speaker 1: this inequality was built. How can I tell a narrative 341 00:19:15,857 --> 00:19:18,697 Speaker 1: that people actually care about? Right? So it was always 342 00:19:19,017 --> 00:19:21,497 Speaker 1: these sorts of things, and the way that I approached 343 00:19:21,537 --> 00:19:24,497 Speaker 1: the sixteen nineteen project is the way I approach most things. 344 00:19:24,897 --> 00:19:29,337 Speaker 1: Having a history degree, I do an extensive amount of 345 00:19:29,457 --> 00:19:33,377 Speaker 1: historical research on anything that I'm working on. I read 346 00:19:33,497 --> 00:19:38,057 Speaker 1: often multiple books. I do original archival research depending on 347 00:19:38,257 --> 00:19:41,617 Speaker 1: what it is that I'm writing. I talk to historians, 348 00:19:41,657 --> 00:19:45,097 Speaker 1: I read sociology. I mean, I basically do a literature review. 349 00:19:45,217 --> 00:19:48,097 Speaker 1: I like to see everything that's been written along the 350 00:19:48,137 --> 00:19:52,257 Speaker 1: subject and try to figure out what can I offer 351 00:19:52,457 --> 00:19:54,977 Speaker 1: that will be surprising. As you know, when it comes 352 00:19:54,977 --> 00:19:58,897 Speaker 1: to raise, everyone thinks they know, but they don't really know, right, 353 00:19:58,897 --> 00:20:00,857 Speaker 1: And so I think of, like, what are all the 354 00:20:00,937 --> 00:20:03,337 Speaker 1: arguments I hear what are the objections? What are the 355 00:20:03,377 --> 00:20:05,897 Speaker 1: things that people think that they understand but they really don't, 356 00:20:05,977 --> 00:20:08,257 Speaker 1: And then how can I challenge that with the writing? 357 00:20:08,697 --> 00:20:11,697 Speaker 1: But I didn't know that who was writing it would 358 00:20:11,697 --> 00:20:17,777 Speaker 1: be the ultimate testimony to the resilience of our people 359 00:20:17,937 --> 00:20:21,177 Speaker 1: and the resilience of our ancestors, that the descendants had 360 00:20:21,217 --> 00:20:24,697 Speaker 1: to be the primary shaper of this kind of collective 361 00:20:24,977 --> 00:20:28,537 Speaker 1: reckoning with our country. It's so beautiful to encounter this 362 00:20:28,577 --> 00:20:31,657 Speaker 1: work because the list of scholars and writers, you know, 363 00:20:31,737 --> 00:20:34,777 Speaker 1: you have everyone from Tracy K. Smith in here to 364 00:20:34,937 --> 00:20:39,137 Speaker 1: Lendedge to Dorothy Roberts to Barry Jenkins. I mean you 365 00:20:39,217 --> 00:20:43,697 Speaker 1: have goud a ranking. It's just so phenomenal. And each 366 00:20:43,777 --> 00:20:47,857 Speaker 1: chapter it's simply one word. So you have a democracy race, 367 00:20:48,177 --> 00:20:52,137 Speaker 1: sugar progress, Like every single chapter literally shows how the 368 00:20:52,217 --> 00:20:55,177 Speaker 1: legacy of slavery isn't everything we do. It's in the 369 00:20:55,217 --> 00:20:58,257 Speaker 1: fabric of our constitution and this idea of a functioning 370 00:20:58,297 --> 00:21:01,817 Speaker 1: democracy that is what you are illustrating in this book. 371 00:21:02,457 --> 00:21:04,857 Speaker 1: How did you know who to pick from the topic 372 00:21:05,057 --> 00:21:07,857 Speaker 1: I gotta have this person. Was it a hard process 373 00:21:07,857 --> 00:21:12,297 Speaker 1: and narrat down to the contributors? Yeah, so I fought 374 00:21:12,337 --> 00:21:14,777 Speaker 1: really hard for all of the titles to be one word, 375 00:21:15,257 --> 00:21:20,137 Speaker 1: because to me, the simplicity of just reading the table 376 00:21:20,177 --> 00:21:26,337 Speaker 1: of contents and being like, dang traffic, healthcare, medicine, capitalism, democracy, right, 377 00:21:26,457 --> 00:21:30,697 Speaker 1: just that single word really speaks to how foundational the 378 00:21:30,737 --> 00:21:34,817 Speaker 1: institutional slavery was, that it has touched all of these institutions, 379 00:21:34,897 --> 00:21:41,097 Speaker 1: and mostly for the contributors, I knew who I wanted, 380 00:21:41,377 --> 00:21:44,537 Speaker 1: particularly for the essays. When I first pitched the project. 381 00:21:44,577 --> 00:21:46,977 Speaker 1: One of the first things I did was I conveyed 382 00:21:47,017 --> 00:21:51,937 Speaker 1: this massive brainstorming session with scholars whose work had informed mind, 383 00:21:52,057 --> 00:21:57,857 Speaker 1: so economists, historians, sociologists, art historians, and many of them 384 00:21:57,937 --> 00:21:59,737 Speaker 1: ended up writing for it. And then it was just 385 00:21:59,777 --> 00:22:02,497 Speaker 1: a matter of what is the subject that we feel 386 00:22:02,577 --> 00:22:04,337 Speaker 1: needs to be covered, and who do we think is 387 00:22:04,377 --> 00:22:07,777 Speaker 1: the best person to write that, And so, you know, 388 00:22:07,977 --> 00:22:10,657 Speaker 1: Martha Jones own Citizenship, to me, the most obvious choice 389 00:22:10,737 --> 00:22:13,937 Speaker 1: in the world Taya Mouse, who's an Afro Indigenous scholar 390 00:22:13,977 --> 00:22:17,497 Speaker 1: at Harvard to write the story on the dispossession of 391 00:22:17,617 --> 00:22:23,657 Speaker 1: native land. Khalil Muhammed actually pitched the idea of sugar 392 00:22:24,097 --> 00:22:28,857 Speaker 1: at our initial brainstorm. That's not what scholarship. He's known 393 00:22:28,897 --> 00:22:31,417 Speaker 1: for but it was a brilliant essay, so it really 394 00:22:31,617 --> 00:22:35,937 Speaker 1: was truly collaborative in that way. And then as far 395 00:22:35,977 --> 00:22:40,297 Speaker 1: as the literary timeline, which is the short fiction and poetry, 396 00:22:40,377 --> 00:22:42,217 Speaker 1: that really was the idea of Jake Silver seeing the 397 00:22:42,297 --> 00:22:44,937 Speaker 1: editor in chief. We have been having a discussion about 398 00:22:45,497 --> 00:22:48,777 Speaker 1: how much of our history is it told through black 399 00:22:48,817 --> 00:22:51,537 Speaker 1: people because we weren't able to read and write as 400 00:22:51,537 --> 00:22:53,897 Speaker 1: we were experiencing so much of this, and what if 401 00:22:53,897 --> 00:22:57,657 Speaker 1: we had some of the greatest American writers reimagined these moments. 402 00:22:58,097 --> 00:23:02,057 Speaker 1: And we just did a massive Excel spreadsheet and we 403 00:23:02,137 --> 00:23:04,457 Speaker 1: just listed every black writer that we would love to 404 00:23:04,457 --> 00:23:09,057 Speaker 1: see participate. And some are expected, you know, Rita Dove 405 00:23:09,337 --> 00:23:13,057 Speaker 1: Post Surprise Winner, and others are not. Terry McMillan, who 406 00:23:13,057 --> 00:23:15,297 Speaker 1: he wouldn't think about being in this type of project. 407 00:23:15,337 --> 00:23:18,097 Speaker 1: But I'm like, I love Terry McMillan as a writer, right, 408 00:23:18,177 --> 00:23:21,297 Speaker 1: and who can't see Mike's president. I saw that she 409 00:23:21,337 --> 00:23:25,017 Speaker 1: got Terry McMillan over here. Yeah, Will is like the greatest. 410 00:23:25,097 --> 00:23:29,257 Speaker 1: I feel like she's underappreciated, like she's the best at everything, 411 00:23:29,577 --> 00:23:33,697 Speaker 1: like exactly she was, so, you know, excited and honored 412 00:23:33,737 --> 00:23:36,617 Speaker 1: because this isn't something people would typically think of her. 413 00:23:36,697 --> 00:23:39,537 Speaker 1: As you know Barry Jenkins, he's a director and a screenwriter. 414 00:23:39,937 --> 00:23:42,177 Speaker 1: But the first time I read his poem it made 415 00:23:42,177 --> 00:23:45,297 Speaker 1: me cry. It's haunting and beautiful. Like I said, what 416 00:23:45,697 --> 00:23:49,737 Speaker 1: greater testament to what our ancestors bore than to be 417 00:23:49,777 --> 00:23:53,177 Speaker 1: able to have some of the greatest writers and historians 418 00:23:53,177 --> 00:23:56,097 Speaker 1: in America all in one volume, and almost all of 419 00:23:56,097 --> 00:23:59,537 Speaker 1: them are black. Like to me, this is the testimony 420 00:23:59,657 --> 00:24:02,457 Speaker 1: and mean takes her breath away just the magnitude of 421 00:24:02,457 --> 00:24:05,537 Speaker 1: this project. It just has such like a tenderness to it. 422 00:24:05,937 --> 00:24:10,897 Speaker 1: And not only are you thinking about like our ask, 423 00:24:10,977 --> 00:24:14,577 Speaker 1: but you are reimagining our future too. There's a poem 424 00:24:14,777 --> 00:24:19,097 Speaker 1: on brevity by Camille Dungee, the last Deans of the poem, 425 00:24:19,537 --> 00:24:22,777 Speaker 1: it says, revision is a struggle towards truth. In my book, 426 00:24:22,817 --> 00:24:26,777 Speaker 1: I won't keep the end for such terrible brevity. Dear 427 00:24:26,817 --> 00:24:30,457 Speaker 1: black girl, sweet babies, there's been no end. And when 428 00:24:30,457 --> 00:24:33,177 Speaker 1: I read this, I thought of you so much because 429 00:24:33,217 --> 00:24:36,217 Speaker 1: of this one line. Revision is a struggle towards truth, 430 00:24:36,377 --> 00:24:40,057 Speaker 1: And sixteen nineteen is such a beautiful revision in the 431 00:24:40,097 --> 00:24:42,617 Speaker 1: work that you're doing is always moving. That's closer towards 432 00:24:42,617 --> 00:24:45,257 Speaker 1: the truth, and even if people try to discredit it, 433 00:24:45,457 --> 00:24:48,457 Speaker 1: try to push it back. For whatever reason, you are 434 00:24:48,657 --> 00:24:52,217 Speaker 1: telling the truth and not being afraid of what might 435 00:24:52,257 --> 00:24:54,737 Speaker 1: come because people don't want to hear the truth. So 436 00:24:54,857 --> 00:24:57,297 Speaker 1: my question to you is like, when that comes that 437 00:24:57,417 --> 00:25:01,217 Speaker 1: discredit those vicious things that happen to you online and 438 00:25:01,297 --> 00:25:04,697 Speaker 1: off for people they don't want you or us to win, 439 00:25:05,137 --> 00:25:06,897 Speaker 1: how do you handle that? How do you take care 440 00:25:06,897 --> 00:25:09,377 Speaker 1: of yourself? And who are the people that keep you, 441 00:25:09,457 --> 00:25:12,977 Speaker 1: that hold you while you do this work? You know, 442 00:25:13,417 --> 00:25:17,697 Speaker 1: thank you and thank you for recognizing how important this 443 00:25:17,697 --> 00:25:20,417 Speaker 1: work was to me and to all of us that 444 00:25:21,057 --> 00:25:23,257 Speaker 1: we did take a lot of care. I didn't know 445 00:25:23,297 --> 00:25:26,657 Speaker 1: if anyone would read this or what this would become, 446 00:25:27,217 --> 00:25:31,657 Speaker 1: but that our ancestors and our people deserve to have 447 00:25:31,777 --> 00:25:35,817 Speaker 1: this told in a dignified, proper way that was both 448 00:25:35,897 --> 00:25:40,257 Speaker 1: unflinching but not further trying to rob us of our humanity. 449 00:25:40,497 --> 00:25:45,057 Speaker 1: And I think because this meant so much to all 450 00:25:45,097 --> 00:25:48,137 Speaker 1: of us, I mean I expected the attacks. Clearly, you 451 00:25:48,217 --> 00:25:51,177 Speaker 1: don't produce a project like this that makes the arguments 452 00:25:51,177 --> 00:25:54,297 Speaker 1: that we make in the New York Times, which people 453 00:25:54,337 --> 00:25:57,297 Speaker 1: feel they have a certain ownership over and that someone 454 00:25:57,337 --> 00:26:00,217 Speaker 1: like me shouldn't even be able to bring something like 455 00:26:00,297 --> 00:26:02,297 Speaker 1: this fourth from the New York Times. We were going 456 00:26:02,337 --> 00:26:06,177 Speaker 1: to get scrutiny and critique and attacks. I knew all 457 00:26:06,217 --> 00:26:09,977 Speaker 1: of that, but I also take them really personally because 458 00:26:10,657 --> 00:26:13,097 Speaker 1: of the care that we did take and that our 459 00:26:13,257 --> 00:26:16,097 Speaker 1: people don't deserve. You know, they're attacking me, but they're 460 00:26:16,097 --> 00:26:20,617 Speaker 1: really attacking our history. They're really attacking our contributions, and 461 00:26:20,657 --> 00:26:24,057 Speaker 1: they're attacking us telling the truth about who we are 462 00:26:24,297 --> 00:26:27,177 Speaker 1: as a people and as a country. With that said, though, 463 00:26:29,537 --> 00:26:32,017 Speaker 1: I just you know, I say this again again, I 464 00:26:32,057 --> 00:26:36,337 Speaker 1: really am built for this because I know to whom 465 00:26:36,417 --> 00:26:39,137 Speaker 1: I belong. I know what this work means to the 466 00:26:39,177 --> 00:26:42,457 Speaker 1: people that I wrote it for, and I know that 467 00:26:42,497 --> 00:26:45,337 Speaker 1: this work is right. I know that we are deserving 468 00:26:45,377 --> 00:26:49,297 Speaker 1: of having our story told this way. America would not 469 00:26:49,417 --> 00:26:53,817 Speaker 1: exist without us, it just wouldn't. And I know the 470 00:26:54,057 --> 00:26:57,777 Speaker 1: decades of scholarship, much of it by Black scholars who 471 00:26:57,777 --> 00:27:01,297 Speaker 1: were determined to push back on this narrative that wrote 472 00:27:01,377 --> 00:27:04,417 Speaker 1: us out in the margins. All of that means that 473 00:27:04,777 --> 00:27:08,017 Speaker 1: I just have confidence and surety about the work that 474 00:27:08,057 --> 00:27:11,897 Speaker 1: I'm doing. I don't do work for a claim. I 475 00:27:11,937 --> 00:27:15,057 Speaker 1: don't do work because I'm trying to get somewhere in life. 476 00:27:15,057 --> 00:27:16,977 Speaker 1: I do the work because it's the work that I'm 477 00:27:16,977 --> 00:27:21,817 Speaker 1: called to do. You sometimes get caught up in the 478 00:27:21,897 --> 00:27:24,857 Speaker 1: criticism and it plays an outside kind of role in 479 00:27:24,897 --> 00:27:28,697 Speaker 1: your psyche. But when I go out and you know 480 00:27:28,777 --> 00:27:32,457 Speaker 1: the black delta flight attended, or the black doorman, or 481 00:27:32,217 --> 00:27:34,617 Speaker 1: my driver when I was going to an event, who 482 00:27:34,777 --> 00:27:36,537 Speaker 1: I had to mail him a book because he just 483 00:27:36,617 --> 00:27:39,937 Speaker 1: couldn't believe he was driving me, like regular black people 484 00:27:40,057 --> 00:27:45,057 Speaker 1: who know and value this work, then what can anyone 485 00:27:45,177 --> 00:27:48,337 Speaker 1: say to me? So I just feel honored it. And 486 00:27:48,337 --> 00:27:50,897 Speaker 1: this is where studying people like I to be welles right, 487 00:27:51,257 --> 00:27:55,377 Speaker 1: Studying the way that people who particularly black women, who 488 00:27:55,457 --> 00:27:57,977 Speaker 1: try to tell the truth. I mean Tony Morrison, right, 489 00:27:58,217 --> 00:28:01,657 Speaker 1: They attacked her Nobel Prize and said that her getting 490 00:28:01,657 --> 00:28:04,337 Speaker 1: it delegitimized the Nobel Prize, the same way that they 491 00:28:04,337 --> 00:28:07,657 Speaker 1: said that about me and my Pulitzer. So studying history 492 00:28:07,697 --> 00:28:10,097 Speaker 1: means that we have the backbone and the strength to 493 00:28:10,177 --> 00:28:12,977 Speaker 1: know what to expect, and that if our ancestors could 494 00:28:12,977 --> 00:28:16,617 Speaker 1: bear it without the resources we have, without the institutional support, 495 00:28:16,937 --> 00:28:19,417 Speaker 1: I can certainly bear it. So I'm great now. I 496 00:28:19,457 --> 00:28:21,017 Speaker 1: am drinking wine in the middle of the day, so 497 00:28:21,057 --> 00:28:25,497 Speaker 1: that might tell you something, But overall, I'm just proud. 498 00:28:25,537 --> 00:28:29,337 Speaker 1: Like you know, if people were not the right type 499 00:28:29,337 --> 00:28:32,577 Speaker 1: of people, we're not attacking this work. This work would 500 00:28:32,617 --> 00:28:35,497 Speaker 1: have failed because it would have told a comfortable and 501 00:28:35,617 --> 00:28:40,217 Speaker 1: comforting narrative. And this work should be troubling to the 502 00:28:40,217 --> 00:28:42,617 Speaker 1: people who have held power in this country, and it is. 503 00:28:42,697 --> 00:28:45,777 Speaker 1: So I'm proud of that. We are proud of you, 504 00:28:45,977 --> 00:28:48,297 Speaker 1: and it's given us the vocabulary. There are so many 505 00:28:48,337 --> 00:28:50,737 Speaker 1: things that I wanted to say that maybe that I 506 00:28:50,817 --> 00:28:52,817 Speaker 1: felt timid about or maybe I was like I don't know, 507 00:28:53,057 --> 00:28:55,337 Speaker 1: But the moment I can cite your book, I can 508 00:28:55,377 --> 00:28:57,937 Speaker 1: reference the things, I can go down a rabbit hole 509 00:28:57,977 --> 00:29:00,297 Speaker 1: of knowledge and feel empowered and know that like, this 510 00:29:00,497 --> 00:29:02,617 Speaker 1: is history, these are facts. This is not something you 511 00:29:02,657 --> 00:29:04,657 Speaker 1: can dispute with me because it lives in a real 512 00:29:04,697 --> 00:29:07,817 Speaker 1: space and it's now part of our collective consciousness. What 513 00:29:07,937 --> 00:29:11,097 Speaker 1: other things like motivate and inspire you from a creative standpoint. 514 00:29:11,257 --> 00:29:16,017 Speaker 1: So I hope all the writers who are listening to 515 00:29:16,057 --> 00:29:20,537 Speaker 1: this will be calmed by this, because whenever I read 516 00:29:20,537 --> 00:29:25,017 Speaker 1: about writers whom I admire their writing process and what 517 00:29:25,137 --> 00:29:27,217 Speaker 1: a message is. Then I feel calm because I'm like, 518 00:29:27,257 --> 00:29:31,417 Speaker 1: my writing process is a complete mess. It's just it's grueling, 519 00:29:31,617 --> 00:29:34,377 Speaker 1: and I have to write in the mornings. My mind 520 00:29:34,457 --> 00:29:37,097 Speaker 1: only functions super well in the morning, so I have 521 00:29:37,217 --> 00:29:39,657 Speaker 1: to be like, how early though we talk about five am, 522 00:29:39,857 --> 00:29:44,657 Speaker 1: four am, usually like seven or so, like not super early. 523 00:29:44,697 --> 00:29:46,737 Speaker 1: I gotta get up, get my coffee. I am a 524 00:29:46,777 --> 00:29:49,537 Speaker 1: morning person. I do wake up early. The house needs 525 00:29:49,537 --> 00:29:51,217 Speaker 1: to be empty. I need to write a silence. I'm 526 00:29:51,217 --> 00:29:52,617 Speaker 1: not one of those people who can write in a 527 00:29:52,617 --> 00:29:56,137 Speaker 1: coffee shop or write anywhere. Like I'm a bit of 528 00:29:56,217 --> 00:29:58,697 Speaker 1: a diva when it comes to writing. Everything has to 529 00:29:58,737 --> 00:30:01,657 Speaker 1: be kind of particular. I have a writing space in 530 00:30:01,737 --> 00:30:04,177 Speaker 1: my basement. It's like a bomb shelters in a basement. 531 00:30:04,217 --> 00:30:07,817 Speaker 1: There's no windows, there's nothing, no windows. No, it's just 532 00:30:08,057 --> 00:30:12,177 Speaker 1: because I just have to be alone. Writing is agonizing 533 00:30:12,217 --> 00:30:14,457 Speaker 1: for me. I mean there's probably been four times where 534 00:30:14,457 --> 00:30:16,617 Speaker 1: I just sat down and just everything flowed and I 535 00:30:16,697 --> 00:30:18,817 Speaker 1: was like, Oh, this is gonna be good. Partly because 536 00:30:19,297 --> 00:30:22,057 Speaker 1: I do an overwhelming amount of research, so by the 537 00:30:22,097 --> 00:30:24,257 Speaker 1: time I write, I just know way too much. I 538 00:30:24,257 --> 00:30:27,537 Speaker 1: have way too many sources and it's hard to figure 539 00:30:27,537 --> 00:30:29,817 Speaker 1: out how to start and how much to leave out. 540 00:30:29,897 --> 00:30:32,657 Speaker 1: So I read this somewhere when I was reading about 541 00:30:32,977 --> 00:30:36,417 Speaker 1: other writers writing process, and I don't remember who it was, 542 00:30:36,457 --> 00:30:38,377 Speaker 1: but they said, you have to for yourself to write 543 00:30:38,417 --> 00:30:42,817 Speaker 1: shitty first draft. And I was like, that's so liberating, 544 00:30:43,297 --> 00:30:45,057 Speaker 1: and so I wrote it on a piece of paper 545 00:30:45,097 --> 00:30:46,737 Speaker 1: and I like have it in my writing space, and 546 00:30:46,857 --> 00:30:48,817 Speaker 1: I'm like, just get it out, just get it out, 547 00:30:49,097 --> 00:30:52,697 Speaker 1: because otherwise it's like I'm agonizing over every single word 548 00:30:52,777 --> 00:30:55,377 Speaker 1: and you you've been sitting at the keyboard for two 549 00:30:55,417 --> 00:30:59,097 Speaker 1: hours and you have like one paragraph five hundred words 550 00:30:59,097 --> 00:31:05,177 Speaker 1: instead of five exactly. So what typically happens is I 551 00:31:05,457 --> 00:31:08,577 Speaker 1: research until I can't anymore. And part of it is 552 00:31:08,777 --> 00:31:10,337 Speaker 1: I just never feel like I know enough, and part 553 00:31:10,377 --> 00:31:13,217 Speaker 1: of it is just procrastination, where I'm like, as long 554 00:31:13,257 --> 00:31:15,977 Speaker 1: as i'm researching, I don't have to write, and then 555 00:31:16,017 --> 00:31:17,497 Speaker 1: when I write, I just sit down and write the 556 00:31:17,497 --> 00:31:19,897 Speaker 1: whole damn thing. So my husband would tell you, I 557 00:31:20,057 --> 00:31:25,297 Speaker 1: work fourteen fifteen hours just sitting at the desk drinking seltzer, 558 00:31:25,737 --> 00:31:28,217 Speaker 1: and don't come down to talk to me, don't say 559 00:31:28,217 --> 00:31:30,617 Speaker 1: anything to me. There'll be book scattered everywhere, note book 560 00:31:30,657 --> 00:31:34,417 Speaker 1: scattered everywhere, and I'll just write that thing obsessively until 561 00:31:34,577 --> 00:31:37,177 Speaker 1: I have a draft out. That's typically how I do it. 562 00:31:37,257 --> 00:31:41,137 Speaker 1: So like the Democracy Essay, the first version of it 563 00:31:41,137 --> 00:31:45,457 Speaker 1: probably revised twelve times, and then when I expanded the essay, 564 00:31:45,817 --> 00:31:48,377 Speaker 1: that was just as long of a revision process. And 565 00:31:48,457 --> 00:31:51,897 Speaker 1: it's just a constant revising. I'd never lack for motivation, 566 00:31:52,457 --> 00:31:54,017 Speaker 1: Like I get to write when I want to write 567 00:31:54,057 --> 00:31:56,377 Speaker 1: and what I want to write, and so whenever i'm writing, 568 00:31:56,497 --> 00:31:58,497 Speaker 1: it's because I'm getting to write something I feel is 569 00:31:58,537 --> 00:32:01,857 Speaker 1: important and yourself. Yeah, writing is like therapy, Like I 570 00:32:01,897 --> 00:32:04,857 Speaker 1: have this tension bottle up about something that I'm seeing 571 00:32:04,977 --> 00:32:07,537 Speaker 1: or something that I think needs to be addressed, and 572 00:32:07,577 --> 00:32:10,817 Speaker 1: then I can put it on the page and it's 573 00:32:10,817 --> 00:32:12,737 Speaker 1: like a release for me once I've gotten it down. 574 00:32:13,177 --> 00:32:16,737 Speaker 1: There's so much abundance in the project, each essay, each contribution. 575 00:32:16,857 --> 00:32:19,417 Speaker 1: You can go a million different directions and be brought 576 00:32:19,497 --> 00:32:21,697 Speaker 1: up the children's book. Can you talk a little bit 577 00:32:21,697 --> 00:32:24,617 Speaker 1: about the children's Bookie co wrote with Renee Watson, Born 578 00:32:24,697 --> 00:32:28,337 Speaker 1: on the Water. So I am so proud of Born 579 00:32:28,377 --> 00:32:32,857 Speaker 1: on the Water and my collaborators, Renee Watson, who's just 580 00:32:32,897 --> 00:32:36,457 Speaker 1: an amazing children's book author, and then Nicholas Smith, who 581 00:32:37,257 --> 00:32:39,777 Speaker 1: is an illustrator. It's really one of the most important 582 00:32:39,777 --> 00:32:42,737 Speaker 1: things that I've done. It came out of two things. 583 00:32:42,817 --> 00:32:46,137 Speaker 1: When the original project came out, I kept hearing from 584 00:32:46,217 --> 00:32:50,857 Speaker 1: so many parents, especially black parents, who said, I learned 585 00:32:50,977 --> 00:32:53,297 Speaker 1: so much reading the project. But I don't want my 586 00:32:53,417 --> 00:32:56,497 Speaker 1: child to have to wait until they're grown to have 587 00:32:56,537 --> 00:32:59,737 Speaker 1: an understanding of our legacy and our lineage. And I 588 00:32:59,817 --> 00:33:02,257 Speaker 1: really wish that there was something for kids. You know, 589 00:33:02,777 --> 00:33:05,537 Speaker 1: the magazine was turned into curriculum, but it was a 590 00:33:05,617 --> 00:33:09,697 Speaker 1: high school curriculum, so parents were asking for it. And then, 591 00:33:09,737 --> 00:33:12,497 Speaker 1: of course I was thinking a lot about my experience 592 00:33:12,537 --> 00:33:14,937 Speaker 1: as a child and what it would have meant to 593 00:33:14,977 --> 00:33:17,737 Speaker 1: me as a black girl to have an origin story 594 00:33:18,217 --> 00:33:20,417 Speaker 1: as opposed to feeling like we didn't have one and 595 00:33:20,457 --> 00:33:23,497 Speaker 1: every other group did. So that's really where the idea 596 00:33:23,577 --> 00:33:26,577 Speaker 1: came from. And I knew I wanted to write it, 597 00:33:26,577 --> 00:33:28,977 Speaker 1: but I'd never written a children's book before, and I 598 00:33:29,017 --> 00:33:31,337 Speaker 1: don't have, you know, the hubris to think that just 599 00:33:31,337 --> 00:33:33,577 Speaker 1: because you're good at writing in one way, you'll be 600 00:33:33,617 --> 00:33:36,137 Speaker 1: great at writing in another. So I asked you know, 601 00:33:36,177 --> 00:33:39,097 Speaker 1: to be paired with a veteran children's book writer. But 602 00:33:39,097 --> 00:33:40,737 Speaker 1: I said, I actually want to like co write it, 603 00:33:40,777 --> 00:33:43,457 Speaker 1: like I don't want it to be like my name, 604 00:33:43,537 --> 00:33:47,937 Speaker 1: But she actually wrote it. So they introduced me to Renee, 605 00:33:48,297 --> 00:33:50,417 Speaker 1: and I had read some of her children's book, but 606 00:33:50,457 --> 00:33:52,897 Speaker 1: then I read everything that she wrote and we met 607 00:33:52,937 --> 00:33:54,817 Speaker 1: and just hit it off, and so we really co 608 00:33:54,937 --> 00:33:58,257 Speaker 1: wrote it. Like every other Stanza is either her or me, 609 00:33:59,017 --> 00:34:01,257 Speaker 1: And we were talking the other day and we're like, 610 00:34:01,337 --> 00:34:05,097 Speaker 1: sometimes we can't even tell who wrote what Some of 611 00:34:05,137 --> 00:34:06,737 Speaker 1: them I can tell. I'm like, yeah, that's definitely what 612 00:34:06,817 --> 00:34:09,897 Speaker 1: I wrote, but others like we had such a synergy 613 00:34:09,937 --> 00:34:14,137 Speaker 1: and connection, and she was so gracious to be paired 614 00:34:14,137 --> 00:34:16,977 Speaker 1: with someone who doesn't write children's book. But to see 615 00:34:17,017 --> 00:34:21,177 Speaker 1: the response of children and their parents to this book 616 00:34:21,177 --> 00:34:23,057 Speaker 1: and what it has meant to them has just been 617 00:34:23,097 --> 00:34:27,777 Speaker 1: so great, especially for black descendants of American slavery. Because 618 00:34:27,817 --> 00:34:31,057 Speaker 1: even my daughter when she was in elementary school with 619 00:34:31,097 --> 00:34:32,617 Speaker 1: a lot of black kids, but most of the black 620 00:34:32,697 --> 00:34:35,617 Speaker 1: kids were coming from the Caribbean. So when they would 621 00:34:35,617 --> 00:34:37,977 Speaker 1: do flag Day, all those kids were like proud with 622 00:34:38,097 --> 00:34:42,097 Speaker 1: their flag from Trinidad or their flag from the dr 623 00:34:42,137 --> 00:34:45,017 Speaker 1: and my child was like, what's my flag? And so 624 00:34:45,097 --> 00:34:48,217 Speaker 1: for her Black American children to be able to claim 625 00:34:48,377 --> 00:34:50,537 Speaker 1: their lineage was just really important to me. And it's 626 00:34:50,577 --> 00:34:53,577 Speaker 1: been a beautiful thing in the world. I have to 627 00:34:53,617 --> 00:34:58,977 Speaker 1: talk about Howard. Yes, you are now a professor at 628 00:34:58,977 --> 00:35:02,257 Speaker 1: Howard University. Tell us how that came to be, And 629 00:35:02,337 --> 00:35:05,097 Speaker 1: how do you feel now that you are part officially 630 00:35:05,417 --> 00:35:07,337 Speaker 1: part of the Mecca Because we grandfathered you in a 631 00:35:07,337 --> 00:35:09,937 Speaker 1: long time ago. There's always been the love, but now 632 00:35:09,977 --> 00:35:12,137 Speaker 1: you're there. What does it feel like, What is it 633 00:35:12,297 --> 00:35:14,817 Speaker 1: like working with the students? Tell me all of it. Listen, 634 00:35:15,097 --> 00:35:17,697 Speaker 1: I mean you you already know, Laurie that I have 635 00:35:18,217 --> 00:35:22,017 Speaker 1: long coveted people who actually could make a claim to 636 00:35:22,057 --> 00:35:25,097 Speaker 1: the Mecca. I didn't know really about HBCUs when I 637 00:35:25,137 --> 00:35:27,657 Speaker 1: was in high school. My husband was the first black 638 00:35:27,657 --> 00:35:30,617 Speaker 1: person I ever met whose grandparents had a college degree. 639 00:35:30,617 --> 00:35:33,577 Speaker 1: I didn't even know that was possible, which makes me 640 00:35:33,617 --> 00:35:38,497 Speaker 1: feel like so naive, But so I always wished I 641 00:35:38,537 --> 00:35:41,857 Speaker 1: had gone to an HBCU, and particularly Howard, just because 642 00:35:41,897 --> 00:35:45,617 Speaker 1: of the legacy and particularly the legacy of black writers. 643 00:35:45,857 --> 00:35:49,777 Speaker 1: M and T used to be like, you should come 644 00:35:49,777 --> 00:35:51,497 Speaker 1: to homecoming, and I always feel like I can't come. 645 00:35:51,537 --> 00:35:54,657 Speaker 1: It'll kill me because I'm just an imposter, like I 646 00:35:54,737 --> 00:35:57,017 Speaker 1: can't do it. I wasn't actually going to come to 647 00:35:57,097 --> 00:35:59,857 Speaker 1: Howard because I feel like Howard does get even though 648 00:35:59,937 --> 00:36:04,377 Speaker 1: I desperately wanted to. Don't talk about no, no, you 649 00:36:04,457 --> 00:36:06,977 Speaker 1: were going to come. No, But I feel like Howard gets, 650 00:36:07,017 --> 00:36:09,897 Speaker 1: you know, for HBCUs, it gets a lot of the resources. Yeah, 651 00:36:09,977 --> 00:36:13,457 Speaker 1: I was trying to like, how could I lend my 652 00:36:13,697 --> 00:36:16,617 Speaker 1: resources best? But then I talked to ton of Hasey 653 00:36:16,617 --> 00:36:18,217 Speaker 1: and he was like, you know, if you come outcome 654 00:36:18,257 --> 00:36:21,577 Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, I can't. I can't, I can't. 655 00:36:22,257 --> 00:36:25,497 Speaker 1: Let me just say it's been an absolute dream. The 656 00:36:25,657 --> 00:36:29,217 Speaker 1: faculty is just amazing and brilliant and love their people 657 00:36:29,257 --> 00:36:32,617 Speaker 1: and the students. They didn't choose Howard as their second pick, right, 658 00:36:32,657 --> 00:36:34,977 Speaker 1: they were like, this is only school I wanted to 659 00:36:35,017 --> 00:36:38,097 Speaker 1: go to, and my students are just so confident and 660 00:36:38,337 --> 00:36:42,017 Speaker 1: passionate and smart. It's just been amazing you now I 661 00:36:42,017 --> 00:36:45,937 Speaker 1: can claim Howard. Finally, the other Dad was on campus 662 00:36:45,937 --> 00:36:48,297 Speaker 1: and they played lift every voice and sing from the 663 00:36:48,337 --> 00:36:52,657 Speaker 1: bell tower. I was like, I am home and it's 664 00:36:52,697 --> 00:37:23,457 Speaker 1: not too late. It's time for rapid fire. So I'm 665 00:37:23,497 --> 00:37:26,137 Speaker 1: just gonna say a thing. I'm gonna say a sentence 666 00:37:26,137 --> 00:37:28,257 Speaker 1: and you just say like the first thing that comes 667 00:37:28,257 --> 00:37:29,417 Speaker 1: to mind, Like it doesn't have to be like a 668 00:37:29,497 --> 00:37:32,897 Speaker 1: full right now, it's fun though. Favorite TV show at 669 00:37:32,897 --> 00:37:36,417 Speaker 1: the moment Snowfall. Oh that's a good one. Okay. Favorite 670 00:37:36,457 --> 00:37:39,177 Speaker 1: pair of Jordan's. My favorite number is Jordan eleven. So 671 00:37:39,337 --> 00:37:42,777 Speaker 1: now I'm really into Jordan Ones. And I have these black, 672 00:37:42,777 --> 00:37:45,097 Speaker 1: white and red news Prince Jordan's said, just you know, 673 00:37:46,137 --> 00:37:48,057 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, they should they need to make a 674 00:37:48,137 --> 00:37:53,337 Speaker 1: sixty nineteen Jordan's. Okay, they're good. Okay, because you're a 675 00:37:53,417 --> 00:37:56,857 Speaker 1: famous redhead, we know your Look. What are your go 676 00:37:56,977 --> 00:38:00,857 Speaker 1: to curly hair products? Oh god, oh, I used so 677 00:38:00,977 --> 00:38:05,977 Speaker 1: much products. I use Jane Carter Solution. I use this 678 00:38:06,137 --> 00:38:09,097 Speaker 1: as I am a black curl activist. I use Curls. 679 00:38:09,137 --> 00:38:11,457 Speaker 1: Curls actually has a great pick and comb that I use. 680 00:38:11,537 --> 00:38:14,017 Speaker 1: And we'll just go with that for now. Favorite movie 681 00:38:14,057 --> 00:38:18,777 Speaker 1: of all time Buckles? All right, how many tattoos do 682 00:38:18,857 --> 00:38:21,817 Speaker 1: you have and what are they? So? I have a 683 00:38:21,857 --> 00:38:24,857 Speaker 1: feather on my foot, which is a peacock feather because 684 00:38:24,977 --> 00:38:27,457 Speaker 1: my nickname back home is bird and I got it 685 00:38:27,457 --> 00:38:29,217 Speaker 1: in honor with my father when he died. I have 686 00:38:29,217 --> 00:38:32,537 Speaker 1: a butterfly on my arm, which stands for renewal. I 687 00:38:32,617 --> 00:38:35,097 Speaker 1: have an Africa with a peace sign on my wrist. 688 00:38:35,297 --> 00:38:39,137 Speaker 1: I have a waterloo tattooed on my right wrist, which 689 00:38:39,177 --> 00:38:42,497 Speaker 1: is my bitch, Stay humble tattooed. Just always remind myself 690 00:38:42,537 --> 00:38:44,457 Speaker 1: I came from the dirt, and to the dirt, I 691 00:38:44,537 --> 00:38:46,697 Speaker 1: can be returned, so be humble. And then I have 692 00:38:47,217 --> 00:38:51,257 Speaker 1: a tattoo of a hibiscus and a and a butterfly. 693 00:38:51,337 --> 00:38:53,817 Speaker 1: And my baby sister passed away some years ago and 694 00:38:53,857 --> 00:38:55,577 Speaker 1: she had that tattoo in her arm, so I got 695 00:38:55,617 --> 00:38:57,977 Speaker 1: that in honor of her. I love that I only 696 00:38:57,977 --> 00:38:59,817 Speaker 1: have ones ottoo, but I've been thinking about getting more. 697 00:38:59,857 --> 00:39:01,777 Speaker 1: I have a box scout crown that my brother and 698 00:39:01,817 --> 00:39:03,857 Speaker 1: I did together. He's like a huge one on his 699 00:39:04,017 --> 00:39:08,537 Speaker 1: arm and I I got scared. I got scared. Let 700 00:39:08,577 --> 00:39:11,017 Speaker 1: me this out first. Yeah, I will say with the 701 00:39:11,057 --> 00:39:13,257 Speaker 1: four tattoo, I really wanted them to quit, but I 702 00:39:13,337 --> 00:39:15,257 Speaker 1: was like, I can't have a half done tattoo because 703 00:39:15,257 --> 00:39:17,657 Speaker 1: that was outside of childbirth. That was the most painful 704 00:39:17,657 --> 00:39:19,537 Speaker 1: thing I went through. Oh yikes, Ye, it that did 705 00:39:19,617 --> 00:39:22,497 Speaker 1: hurt if you just compare it to having a baby 706 00:39:22,617 --> 00:39:28,017 Speaker 1: that definitely did her. I love having these discussions that 707 00:39:28,097 --> 00:39:31,537 Speaker 1: highlight the incredible journeys that black authors take to tell 708 00:39:31,697 --> 00:39:36,777 Speaker 1: our story. For vision is a struggle toward truth. I'm 709 00:39:36,817 --> 00:39:39,457 Speaker 1: honored to be fighting in the world with Nicole Hannah Jones. 710 00:39:40,377 --> 00:39:43,697 Speaker 1: Reading The sixteen nineteen Project as a Black woman, I 711 00:39:43,857 --> 00:39:46,897 Speaker 1: learned about my place in society and the power of 712 00:39:46,977 --> 00:39:52,417 Speaker 1: acknowledging our collective history. This book made me feel proud, 713 00:39:53,057 --> 00:39:55,497 Speaker 1: proud to be part of a generation of readers that 714 00:39:55,697 --> 00:40:00,537 Speaker 1: values the contributions of our ancestors. Nicole's work reaffirms what 715 00:40:00,577 --> 00:40:03,857 Speaker 1: I believe is possible when we recognize our self worth 716 00:40:04,097 --> 00:40:10,457 Speaker 1: as black people. The sixteen nineteen Project, a new origin story, 717 00:40:10,817 --> 00:40:19,257 Speaker 1: is out now. In our next episode, I'll be joined 718 00:40:19,297 --> 00:40:23,257 Speaker 1: by poet and author Elizabeth Assavedo to discuss her path 719 00:40:23,297 --> 00:40:36,857 Speaker 1: to poetry and how music led the way Well read. 720 00:40:36,857 --> 00:40:40,617 Speaker 1: Black Girl is a production of Pushkin Industries. It is 721 00:40:40,657 --> 00:40:44,617 Speaker 1: written and hosted by me Glory Dam and produced by 722 00:40:44,697 --> 00:40:50,497 Speaker 1: Cher Vincent and Brittany Brown. Our associate editor is Keishall Williams. 723 00:40:50,617 --> 00:40:54,497 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our showrunner is 724 00:40:54,497 --> 00:41:00,537 Speaker 1: Sasha Matthias. Our executive producers are Mia Lobell and Leet 725 00:41:00,577 --> 00:41:05,217 Speaker 1: Hall Molad at Pushkin thanks to Heather Fame, Carly Migliori, 726 00:41:05,817 --> 00:41:12,057 Speaker 1: Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, Jen Goera, john On Schnars, and 727 00:41:12,217 --> 00:41:16,097 Speaker 1: Jacob Wiseberg. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram 728 00:41:16,137 --> 00:41:18,737 Speaker 1: at Well Read Black Girl. You can find Pushkin and 729 00:41:18,897 --> 00:41:22,297 Speaker 1: all social media platforms at pushkin Pods, and you can 730 00:41:22,337 --> 00:41:25,937 Speaker 1: sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. If 731 00:41:25,977 --> 00:41:28,537 Speaker 1: you have a question, a recommendation, or you just want 732 00:41:28,537 --> 00:41:34,377 Speaker 1: to say hi, email us at WRBG at pushkin dot Fm. 733 00:41:34,417 --> 00:41:37,337 Speaker 1: If you love this show and others from Pushkin industry, 734 00:41:37,697 --> 00:41:41,857 Speaker 1: consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast 735 00:41:41,897 --> 00:41:46,177 Speaker 1: subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four 736 00:41:46,337 --> 00:41:49,777 Speaker 1: ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple 737 00:41:49,817 --> 00:41:54,017 Speaker 1: podcast subscriptions, and if you're already a subscriber, make sure 738 00:41:54,057 --> 00:41:57,457 Speaker 1: to check out my exclusive Bookmark series. You'll hear extended 739 00:41:57,537 --> 00:42:01,937 Speaker 1: interviews with book club members, bookstore owners, and more. And 740 00:42:02,297 --> 00:42:04,377 Speaker 1: do you get to hear what's on my mind, what's 741 00:42:04,417 --> 00:42:08,097 Speaker 1: on my radar, and of course what's on my reading list? 742 00:42:08,257 --> 00:42:13,497 Speaker 1: Each week. To find more podcasts, listen on iHeartRadio, app, 743 00:42:13,737 --> 00:42:16,697 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen.