1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 2: They spent all the money that they got, so they 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 2: had fine clothes these people, and as it got towards 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 2: needing to murder somebody else, the clothes all went into 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 2: pawn shop and they had to trade things for money, 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 2: And then when they murdered somebody, the fine clothes came 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: back out. 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: After several weeks of holiday, William Burke returned from Bannockburn 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: with Nellie McDougall, who was still very much alive. This, 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: of course, came as a big disappointment to the Hairs. 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: They had hoped that Burke would return from his trip 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: with his dead wife stashed on his horse and cart. 13 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: Because Nellie was Scottish, not Irish like they were, Margaret 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: Hare didn't trust her one bit. She was plotting against them, 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: Margaret argued, but this was just one area of tension 16 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: between the two men. When the couple returned to the 17 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: boarding house in Tanner's Close, William Burke became enraged by 18 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 1: something far more atrocious. As historian Janet Philip explains. 19 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: Before they went off to Bannetburn, the Hare's fine clothes 20 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: had gone back into Hockin. When they came back from Bannetburn, 21 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 2: the fine clothes were back on again, so Burke was 22 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 2: suspicious that something had happened. 23 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: Where did the money come from? Burke demanded to know. 24 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: Hare denied killing anyone, and he tried to retract his 25 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: earlier suggestion about offering Nellie McDougall. They needed to work together. 26 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: Hare insisted they were criminals with a shared secret, and 27 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: now they were both used to making easy money as killers. 28 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: Burke didn't believe him, and why would he. Burke and 29 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: Hare had a relationship built on distrust and lies and murder. 30 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: Of course this would happen at some point. He marched 31 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: down to Surgeon Square and pounded on the door of 32 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: doctor Robert Knox's dissection room. An assistant answered, and he 33 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: confirmed that Hare had indeed delivered a female body and 34 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: received eight pounds. Burke raced back to the lodge and 35 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: confronted Hair. He accused the younger man of violating his trust, 36 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: a breach of honor. I'm sure that seems ludicrous, considering 37 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: they were serial killers. But Burke did seem to have 38 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: some kind of a moral compass, a set of rules 39 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: that made sense to him. And Hare had just broken 40 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: one don't kill someone on your own. They had always 41 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 1: split the prophets. The men immediately began to hit each other. 42 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: Soon they were on the ground, landing punch after punch. 43 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: They were so loud that neighbors scurried to the doorway 44 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: to watch. Burke finally got the upper hand and Hare 45 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: confessed to the solo killing. Hare explained that he lured 46 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: a woman to the boarding house and burked her himself. 47 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: William Hare had just crossed a very important, precarious line. 48 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: So now what happens with that money? Burke's wariness had 49 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: turned to suspicion, even fear. By the summer of eighteen 50 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: twenty eight, Doctor Robert Knox's classes were filled a capacity. 51 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: He boasted of having four of the most talented assistants 52 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: in the country, and his students adored him. Knox bowed 53 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: to them out of respect before beginning his talk. He 54 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: lectured without notes, with the energy of a man half 55 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: his age. The young surgical students were spellbound. He still 56 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: courted the University of Edinburgh for a full time professorship, 57 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: but he was pleased with the income he received from 58 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: his private anatomy classes. He had paid seven hundred pounds 59 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: in one year for bodies from resurrectionists about seventy five 60 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: thousand pounds today or almost one hundred thousand dollars, and 61 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: an incredible amount. Of course, those costs were low, can 62 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: widering how much money he could make from his lectures. 63 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: Knox had varied interests, all of them genteel. He was 64 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: an accomplished violinist, and he constantly read Aristotle, Hippocrates tomes 65 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: on geology, zoology and paleontology. Knox took daily strolls through 66 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: his Anatomy Museum. It had been approved by the Royal 67 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: College of Surgeons of Edinburgh three years earlier. He was 68 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: appointed curator and given an annual salary of one hundred pounds. 69 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: That was paltry compared to his income from private classes, 70 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: but Knox coveted prestige and power. He filled the building 71 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: with his own personal collection of surgical equipment, along with 72 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: specimens from his former mentor, John Barclay. Knox bought other 73 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: collections from around the world. He featured varnished veins and 74 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: wax cast death masks that became his macabre opus. That 75 00:04:55,400 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: museum would be his legacy, he hoped, but his professional 76 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: relationships were still acerbic, as they had been for years. 77 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: He was despised by other anatomy professors. By now two 78 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: thirds of the medical students in the city were taking 79 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: his classes. Historian Owen Dudley Edwards says he was running 80 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 1: the other professors out of business, and they resented him. 81 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 3: He was rising high, and he was a fine speaker, 82 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 3: and of course his students knew that a lecture from 83 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 3: Knox really worth hearing. Half the lecture would be invaluable 84 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: medical material, and the other half would be telling incredibly 85 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 3: scurrilous stories about professor of anatomy Munroe, or doctor Liston 86 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 3: or doctor Syme. 87 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: Knox once joked to students that another professor learned anatomy 88 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: in a butcher's shop. He relentlessly disparaged his critics, He 89 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: degraded his fellow anatomists at every turn. But Knox believed 90 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: fully in an immersive experience in his classes. He said, 91 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: anatomy is an art, and those who would study it 92 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: must see it practiced. They must see the forms, magnitudes, positions, proportions, 93 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: and connections of the structure and organs as they are 94 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: in nature. No figures or verbal descriptions can ever compensate 95 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: for want of the originals. They give not the same relish, 96 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 1: nor interest, nor afford the same correctness of ideas. Edward 97 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: says that doctor Knox was at the zenith of his 98 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: glory in eighteen twenty eight. 99 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 3: Those Knocks, practical, prominent, distinguished, scientific, enlightened figure. 100 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: And one of the most prominent figures in Edinburgh, continued 101 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: to welcome cadavers from two degenerates from Old Town. But 102 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: we need to revisit that nagging question. Did doctor Knox 103 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: know that he was financially supporting a pair of serial killers? 104 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: Did he realize that his money was facilitating a business 105 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: that resulted in murders? 106 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 3: The questions to whether he knew or he didn't preoccupied people, 107 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 3: And the answer is, of course Knox knew enough to know. 108 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: He mustn't know, And we will now a bit more later. 109 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: By late summer of eighteen twenty eight, William Burke was nervous, 110 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: even more than usual. He was still in a constant 111 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: state of inebriation, and he didn't trust William Hare, particularly 112 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: after he had discovered that Hare had killed someone on 113 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: his own and kept all the profits for himself. 114 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 3: The incident had left a certain amount of anxiety in 115 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 3: various parts, including that of Burke, who had in fact 116 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 3: moved himself and Helen MacDougall out of the Hare's lodging 117 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 3: house and to a different place of his own. 118 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: So faced with the fact that Hare had suggested that 119 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: they killed Burke's wife, and Hare had killed somebody on 120 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: his own, having told Burke that he definitely didn't, and 121 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: at that point Burke moves out the house and lives 122 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: with John Brogan, who's a relative of his. It is 123 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: literally just around the corner. 124 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: Burke and Nelly left quickly, and it was likely out 125 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: of self preservation, but there was also another reason. Business 126 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: was booming, and despite their mutual dislike, they just couldn't 127 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: make as much money if they parted ways. 128 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: They moved to two separate locations so they could double 129 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 2: up on the number of people they were killing, and 130 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 2: this was sort of business expansion, so they probably thought 131 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 2: they're in quite a good position, and yeah, this was 132 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 2: going to go on forever because they were always going 133 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 2: to be teaching medicine. 134 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: The two men were constantly struggling just to stay alive, 135 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: so the prospect of an endless supply of income was 136 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: pretty tempting, but William Burke was struggling, both physically and mentally. 137 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: He felt aches and pains and places that would be 138 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 1: concerning to any man. I'm trying to say that delicately. 139 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 1: We know that Burke was a violent killer and a 140 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: habitual philanderer, and now he seemed to be paying for it. 141 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: But the murder of that boy and his grandmother continued 142 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: to plague him as he slept in the tiny cellar 143 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: room that was his new home, and that was almost 144 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: worse than physical pain. Burkanelly rested on a bed filled 145 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: with straw and racks. His shoe mending tools lay nearby. 146 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: He still needed to sleep next to a bottle of 147 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: whiskey and a lit candle. The nightmares about the boy 148 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: he killed wouldn't stop no matter what. Even with all 149 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: those DRAMs of whiskey, he felt like he was going mad. 150 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: Mary Haldane enjoyed being addressed as missus, even though she 151 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: wasn't married. It was a courtesy she believed she deserved. 152 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: She was an older woman who strolled around Old Town 153 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: as many did most days, absolutely hopelessly drunk. She had 154 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: been a frequent lodger at Hare's flophouse, so he knew 155 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: her well. One day, after Burke had moved out, Hare 156 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: watched Mary curse at people on the corner. She was sober, 157 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: and she appeared to be really unhappy about it. As 158 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: we know by now, most people in Old Town were 159 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: alcoholics in the eighteen twenties. The pubs encouraged it by 160 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: offering cheap spirits and porter. The police encouraged it somewhat 161 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: by offering a free place to sleep off a hangover 162 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: in their watchhouse. In fact, just about everyone in Old 163 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: Town enabled it, except the churches. Without alcohol, most of 164 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: the poverty stricken people there had little to live for, 165 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: including Mary hal Dane. She did have three daughters, One 166 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 1: was respectably married, the other two less. So Harrer slyly 167 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: asked Mary to join him and Burke for a drink 168 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: at Hare's flophouse. She quieted down and then happily agreed. 169 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: As they walked toward Tanner's Close, a homeless boy approached 170 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: Mary for a handout. Burke walked over and shoot him away. 171 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: She smiled. Together, Burke and Haare led Mary to the 172 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: boarding house. She drank far too much and she spotted 173 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: the open door to the stable in the back. She 174 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: curled up on a pallet of hay on the ground 175 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: and soon went to sleep. They killed her and kept 176 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: her body in the stable. The next morning, they sold 177 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: her corpse to doctor Knox. Mary Haldane might have been 178 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,239 Speaker 1: a hard drinker, roaming the streets of Old Town harassing 179 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: pub owners for drinks, but she was also a parent, 180 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: and she was missed by her family. Several months after 181 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: Burkenhair murdered Mary Haldane, a younger woman with a similar 182 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: name began knocking on the doors in Old Town. She 183 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: arrived at Burke's house and asked to be let in. 184 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: Her name was Margaret Haldane and her mother was missing. 185 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: Of course, Burke knew she was talking about Mary. He 186 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: handed Margaret a drink and offered a seat. She drank, 187 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: and then she drank some more. She passed out on 188 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: her back. Burke had to think for a moment. Without Hair, 189 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: burking wasn't very easy, so he adapted. He rolled her 190 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: over on her stomach and pressed all of his body 191 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: weight down on her. Now the daughter was dead, but 192 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: this was a turning point for Burke. This was his 193 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: first solo kill. 194 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 2: Burke just killed her in the stable, and he did 195 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: that on his own, and it was a sort of 196 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 2: spur of the moment thing. 197 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 1: Now William Burke knew what it felt like to kill alone, 198 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: and he thought he could do it again. He sold 199 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: Margaret's body to Knox for eight pounds, but he shared 200 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: those profits with Hair, which was more consideration than Hare 201 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 1: had ever given him. Now no one else would search 202 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: for old Mary Haldane. Burke had murdered the only person 203 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: who cared to look for her. Mary's other dog, the 204 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: sober one who was married, never showed up in old Town. 205 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: If she had, she might have asked questions or even 206 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: gone to the police. But Margaret Haldane suffered from the 207 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 1: same disease as her mother, alcoholism, and Birkenhare, as usual, 208 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 1: capitalized on their victims weaknesses. 209 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 2: The people they killed were people who had no connection 210 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: to others, so they were loners or they were new 211 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: in town. They didn't have any friends. No one would 212 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 2: miss them. They were a mixture of men and women. 213 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 2: They killed a child, he was ten, so that is 214 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 2: where they went. Those are the sort of people you 215 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: get into the whole society. I'll give it about whether 216 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 2: the rich people in Edinburgh ever missed the poor people 217 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 2: in Edinburgh. 218 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: And of course that still happens today. We know that 219 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: serial killers often target sex workers or the homeless or runaways, 220 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: people who don't have strong connections. For almost thirty years, 221 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: forensic psychology professor died actor Mike Ammett has gathered data 222 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: on serial killers to create a database logically named the 223 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: serial Killer Database Research Project. His team has collected information 224 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: on more than three thousand, three hundred serial killers, mass 225 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: murderers and spree killers from around the world. There are 226 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: more than nine thousand victim profiles. Here's a reminder. The 227 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: FBI defines serial killer as a series of two or 228 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: more murders committed as separate events, usually but not always, 229 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: by one offender acting alone. So this database also includes 230 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: gang members, for example, and they don't fit society's normal 231 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: description of a serial killer. Doctor Emmett has charts on 232 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: murders by state in America and by country in the 233 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: United Kingdom. He looks at statistics on their race, their method, 234 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: their motive, even their guns. Here's a hint. Guns are 235 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: the most widely used weapon by serial killers. It's fascinating 236 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: and upsetting. They linked the IQs of serial killers to 237 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: their murder methods. The most intelligent ones used bombs, the 238 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: least intelligent bludgeoned people to death. Women are just slightly 239 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: more likely to be victims than men. Most victims are white, 240 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: as are most serial killers, and more than half are 241 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:21,119 Speaker 1: younger than thirty. And here's how this relates to Birkenhair. 242 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: Researchers found that more than a third of serial killers 243 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: murdered for enjoyment like dominance or sexual pleasure, but another 244 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: third murdered for financial gain. In the landscape of serial 245 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: killers in history, the lore of broken hair has never 246 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: really made it out of Europe to America, but virtually 247 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: everyone around the world knows a less prolific serial killer 248 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: from London who killed just sixty years later. What's interesting 249 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: is if you compare this to the tale of Jack 250 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: the Ripper, where there's newspaper articles and you know, people 251 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: are sort of bracing themselves and you know, Whitechapel is 252 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: on edge, there's none of that, but the same in 253 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: theory demographic. So so how do all of these people 254 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: disappear in Edinburgh if you compare it to you know, 255 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: sixty years later at the time period with Jack the Ripper, 256 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: I mean what is the difference, I think. 257 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 2: I mean Jack the Ripper left his victims also played out, 258 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: didn't he. So I mean it was quite obvious when 259 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,119 Speaker 2: somebody was attacked by Jack the Ripper Birkenhir, they just disappeared. 260 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 3: In any murder, the really dangerous thing is that the 261 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 3: body may be found, but there isn't anybody. By the 262 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 3: birken Hair method, the body will have been dissected, so 263 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: it meant that in any police investigation there were no 264 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 3: bodies to find. 265 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: Well, that's true. Burke and Hair were not hoping to 266 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: be infamous, just enterprising, and they had a brilliant, horrible 267 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: business model, but quite soon they would begin making some 268 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:59,479 Speaker 1: big mistakes. 269 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 3: Oh boy, hold on real quick. 270 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: I just had a cacophony of sounds go through my headphones, 271 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: people yelling in another language, and I saw Janet, Philip 272 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: and I are walking along the Royal Mile in Old Town. 273 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: It's February, and despite that interruption, the street is pretty quiet. 274 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: Most tourists won't brave the wickedly cold winds in the winter. 275 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 2: So Edinburgh's built on hills. Essentially, the Royal Mile is 276 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: a spine, and this the closest go down steeply either 277 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 2: side of it. But this was where Burke and Hair 278 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 2: went wrong. 279 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: Yes, very wrong. They finally made a mistake, a serious 280 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 1: lapse in judgment. They targeted the wrong person. James Wilson 281 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: was a twenty one year old man who was intellectually disabled. 282 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: Locals called him an idiot, a half wit. He was 283 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: tall and strong and talkative. He wandered around Old Town 284 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 1: despite his mother's concerns. It had been just the two 285 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: of them since he was twelve when his father died. 286 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: People were very fond of Jamie Wilson. He had a 287 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: lovely singing voice, and he earned pennies here and there 288 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: on the street. He wasn't a drunk or a swindler, 289 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: just a boy who liked to entertain people. He chatted 290 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: with people on the street offering riddles why is a 291 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: jailer like a musician? When the person gave up, he replied, 292 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: because he's a man taking care of his key. He 293 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: had even earned a nickname, Daft Jamie. The British used 294 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: daft to describe something silly or foolish, so everyone knew Jamie. 295 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 3: So they all knew Daft Jamie. To tell stories and 296 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 3: laugh at him poop from that and listen to. 297 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: And he had a distinctive physical feature all. 298 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 2: The time, walking up and down the room mile he 299 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 2: walked around barefoot, so his feet thirteen. Characteristically, he had 300 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 2: a club foot as well. 301 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: When Jamie was a teenager, he wandered away from home. 302 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: His mother closed up their modest house and began searching 303 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: for him. Later on, Jamie returned, tired and hungry to 304 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: an empty house. He searched the kitchen for food, breaking 305 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: dishes along the way. When his mother returned, she was 306 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: furious and gave him a severe whipping with a leather strap. 307 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: After that, Jamie decided to live on the street, sleeping 308 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: in doorways and stairs unless a stranger offered him a 309 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: bed for the night. He was trusting and gullible. That 310 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: is all to say that Jamie Wilson might have been 311 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: naive because of his disability, but he was very physically strong, 312 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: and Margaret Hare should have known better when she eyed 313 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: him one morning in October of eighteen twenty eight. She 314 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: wasn't quite as skilled at selecting victims as burken hair. 315 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: She watched Jamie and he looked distraught. 316 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 2: The story is that on this particular day he had 317 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 2: an argument with his mother, and he was out on 318 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 2: the street upset about this, and Margaret led, so here's wife. 319 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 2: He came across him and said, come back to the 320 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 2: house and I'll go and get your mother and we 321 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 2: can sort this out and you can go home. 322 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: Margaret Hare promised him loads of snuff as she led 323 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: him to the boarding house. Tobacco was his weakness. In fact, 324 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: he carried a very distinctive snuff box and spoon. 325 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 2: So she got him back to the boarding house, and 326 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 2: then she went and got broken hair and bought him back. 327 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: She left him at the boarding house with her husband, 328 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: who seemed surprised that she would bring home a young man. 329 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: Jamie looked strong and that alarmed hair it should have. 330 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: They would have to depend on alcohol to weaken him. 331 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: Margaret soon stepped into Rhymer's Shop, Burke's favorite drinking spot. 332 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: She spotted him at the counter with a dram of 333 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: whiskey in his hand. She slid next to Burke and 334 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: ordered one for herself, and as they stood there, Margaret 335 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: pressed her foot on his. Burke looked her over, she 336 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: quickly turned and left. He downed his drink and followed 337 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: her out. He knew what that signal meant. When Burke 338 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: and Margaret arrived at the lodge, Jamie was still there, 339 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: along with hair Nellie McDougall was gone. She was collecting 340 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: potatoes in the field for a harvest. Burke stood in 341 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,719 Speaker 1: the room and sized up Jamie. He looked formidable and 342 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: stared right at her. Jamie asked about his mother. Margaret 343 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: assured him quickly that she was certainly on the way, 344 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: not to worry. The men stood near Jamie and offered 345 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: him a dram of whiskey. Spirits could quickly make any 346 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 1: man helpless, they hoped, but Jamie declined. 347 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 2: Up until then, the people that had been killing had 348 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: been fairly old, infirm people who drank a lot, and 349 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 2: Jamie was twenty one. And then they discovered he didn't drink, 350 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: so this yeah. 351 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: Burke and Hare looked at one another time for a 352 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: new plan. They gently convinced him to take a sip 353 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: of whiskey, and they seemed so sincere. He finally agreed, 354 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: but he drank just a glass, not enough to make 355 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: him unconscious. Jamie seemed tired, emotionally exhausted from the fight 356 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: with his mother. Hare invited him to lay down in 357 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: the back room. They even volunteered to join him. Remember, 358 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: Jamie Wilson was accustomed to people in Old Town treating 359 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: him kindly. He shuffled to the back room and stretched 360 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: out on the bed. Hare lay down beside him, propping 361 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: his head up with his hand. They both stared up 362 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: at the ceiling. Burke pulled up a stool and sat 363 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: beside the bed, watching Hair carefully. Jamie probably couldn't hear 364 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: Margaret Hare quietly leave the house, locking the front door 365 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: behind her and pushing the key underneath. Jamie was alone 366 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: with the two men. 367 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 3: Now. 368 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: The men prayed he would close his eyes, but it 369 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: took a while. Hare leaned over and glanced at Burke. 370 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 1: Hair pounced on him, gripping his mouth and nose. Jamie 371 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: opened his eyes, panicked, and then fought back. He was 372 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: much stronger than William Hare, much bigger. Burke jumped from 373 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: the stool and hopped out of the way. Jamie was 374 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: flailing trying to get up. He dragged Hair off of 375 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: the bed and they began punching each other. Jamie was 376 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: normally passive, but tonight he was fighting for his life. 377 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: Burke waited for an opportunity and then grabbed Jamie's legs 378 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 1: and arms as he lay on the ground. Hair covered 379 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: Jamie's nose and mouth as he struggled. Both men were 380 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: on top of him. Now his body was weakened. Everything 381 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: was going dark, and soon Jamie was dead. Burke sighed, 382 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: it was finally over. Jamie Wilson lay prone, dead on 383 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: their floor. It was such a sad ending for a 384 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: boy who just wanted to return home to his mother. 385 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: And there's another terrible revelation that I hadn't thought of. 386 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 3: He seems to have been the only corps who had 387 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 3: known that he was about to be murdered. 388 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: He's right, everyone else was essentially asleep before they died. 389 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 2: There is the issue that maybe they would never have 390 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 2: woken up just from alcohol poisoning, but. 391 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: That argument didn't work for Jamie. Janet Philp and other 392 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: authors have searched the Scottish national records for James Wilson 393 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 1: and they found nothing. He became famous, like so many 394 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: other crime victims, after he was killed. Soon there would 395 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: be ballads written about him. His sketch would appear in 396 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 1: broad board newspapers across Europe. He was the most famous 397 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: figure in this case. The face of injustice for all 398 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: of the poor people in old Town, but for no now. 399 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: Jamie Wilson lay on the floor of the lodging house, 400 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: just another tally on the list of Burke and Haair victims. 401 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: Since Jamie was known about, they had to get him 402 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 3: out of the wave. Felt. 403 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: Hair searched Jamie's pockets and found that unusual brass snuffbox 404 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: and copper spoon. Hair kept the box and Burke claimed 405 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: the spoon. Then they did what they had always done. 406 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: They stripped the body and removed the clothes, except they 407 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: did something different this time. The men had always destroyed 408 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: the clothing from the other victims, but Burke decided to 409 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: give Jamie's rags to his nephews. Burke's brother, Constantine, could 410 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: barely keep his two sons and daughter clothed, so they 411 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: were happily received. Constantine and Elizabeth probably didn't ask where 412 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: the clothing came from. Jamie, like all of the others, 413 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: was stuffed into Hair's tea chests despite his large size. 414 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: Burke and Hare received ten pounds for j Amy Wilson. 415 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 2: They killed somebody who was instantly recognizable from the fact 416 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 2: that he had a club foot, but also it was 417 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 2: a turning point in that they now could pretty much 418 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: kill anybody. 419 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: But of course, in any good historical true crime tale, 420 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: there are always some myths. 421 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 3: They got him up to Knox's room, and again he 422 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 3: was identified by doctor Ferguson, whose first action was to 423 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 3: remove daft Jamie's foot. 424 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: The story goes that doctor Robert Knox and his assistant 425 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: ordered the removal of Jamie's club foot, and he was 426 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: immediately dissected. This was offered as proof that the anatomus 427 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,239 Speaker 1: knew that the young men would be recognized by his 428 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: students who ventured onto the Royal Mile, and knew Jamie 429 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: Knox was clearly covering up his tracks. But historian Janet 430 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 1: Philips says, there's just no evidence that actually happened. 431 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 2: There's no records of Knox, and certainly even if you 432 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: made this decision, you wouldn't record. It is that the 433 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 2: feet were removed from body, and that Jamie's body was 434 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 2: dissected pretty much straight away. Now this is prior to preservation, 435 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: so bodies would have been dissected pretty much straight away anyway, 436 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: and leaving somebody's club foot. We've got no proof as 437 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 2: to whether that happened. 438 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: Or not another valid point. Doctor Robert Knox's guilt continues 439 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: to be a mystery to me. The murder of Jamie 440 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: Wilson had bolstered Birkenhare's confidence. 441 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 2: That was another turning point, the ability to kill a healthy, undrunk. 442 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 2: Twenty one year. 443 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: Old William Burke watched old Missus Hostler wash clothing at 444 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: his house. Her husband had been a street porter and 445 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: he had recently died. She was still mourning him. So 446 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: to survive, Missus Hostler was forced to work all day 447 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: long in the fields during harvest, and then she would 448 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: go do people's wash afterwards. It was backbreaking work, but 449 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 1: she had to earn money, so it was bright the 450 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: middle of the day. When Hare arrived, The men glanced 451 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: at each other. Burke offered Missus Hostler some whiskey, which 452 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: she happily accepted. She drank and sang her favorite song, 453 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: Home Sweet Home, so loudly that the neighbors noticed. Burke 454 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: sang along until she grew sleepy. Before long, she requested 455 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: a little rest on the bed. Soon Missus Hostler was dead. 456 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: Her hand was baled up in a fist. They pried 457 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 1: it open and found a ninepence halfpenny inside. Mary Patterson 458 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: also had coins in her hand. That's how important money 459 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: was to a dweller in Old Town. Missus Hostler had 460 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: worked honestly and hard for that money. Birkenhare placed the 461 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: washerwoman in a tea chest. They kept it in the 462 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: coal house in the alley until later that day she 463 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: was worth eight pounds to doctor Knox. Burke Andhare returned 464 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: to Broken's small house and threw a raccous party at 465 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: Missus Hostler's expense. I'm sitting in a pew at Saint 466 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: Patrick's Church in a section of Old Town called the Cowgate. 467 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: Monsignor Philip Kerr has been kind enough to let me 468 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: record the seven forty five early morning mass. Saint Patrick's 469 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: is a Roman Catholic parish church that has sat on 470 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: this spot since seventeen seventy four. It began as a 471 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: Scottish Episcopal church, but during Birkenhar's time it was Presbyterian. 472 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: Churches are at the center of this story. Religious doctrine 473 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: forbade body donations, even organ donations. Professor of anatomy Tom 474 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: Gillingwater says that much of this started in the early 475 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: sixteenth century. 476 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 4: You know, if you go back to the the great 477 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 4: anatomist of the past, Leonardo da Vinci, one of the 478 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 4: very earliest experts in the field. He wasn't a trained anatomist, 479 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 4: but he learned as anatomy by dissections. He had to 480 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 4: see the body. He then produced as amazing beautiful pictures 481 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 4: from it. But the fundamental process he undertook to understand 482 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 4: it was seeing the real thing. 483 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: But the work of Da Vinci and others like him 484 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: repulsed church and community leaders. 485 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 2: If you go back to Versalius, who was the father 486 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 2: of anatomy along with Galen I guess he was persecuted 487 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 2: by the Spanish Inquisition for the stuff that he did 488 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 2: looking at bodies. 489 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: By the eighteenth century, science was advancing rapidly and dissection 490 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: was considered a more practical teaching method. In Great Britain's 491 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,959 Speaker 1: government actually helped those schools inadvertently. In seventeen fifty two, 492 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: Parliament passed the Murder Act, which was meant to be 493 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: a deterrent for killers. 494 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 2: So anybody who was executed for murder could be dissected 495 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 2: by the university. But there aren't that many murders, so 496 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 2: they were teaching on pretty old This is before preservation, 497 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 2: so pretty old Moulby specimens. 498 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: And why not the people who have been abandoned, you know, 499 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: who aren't claimed, Why not add those in because they 500 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: still deserved to have a proper burial. 501 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it depends what you call a proper burial. 502 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 3: I guess. 503 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: I mean back then it was like Pauper's Graves, wasn't it, 504 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 2: where everybody was abandoned altogether. 505 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: People convicted of murder would be executed and then be 506 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: either publicly dissected or their corpse hung up by chains. 507 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: They would not be buried. Those bodies were turned over 508 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: to anatomy schools. Yeah. 509 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 2: So we're crossing the Royal mile hare. If you can 510 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 2: see over on the other side, there's three brass cobbles, 511 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 2: or walk past them. That's why they did the public executions. 512 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 2: So it's quite common you can see locals used to 513 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 2: be that you spat on it as you walked past. 514 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 2: And also locals don't walk over it. They tend to 515 00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 2: walk around it as well. 516 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: And why I have the church again so close to 517 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: the location of public hangings. 518 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 2: Well, I guess the cloud you were on the platform 519 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 2: with them, weren't I So shorter travel time is that convenience. 520 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: I assume if you get executed, do you get buried 521 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 2: in consecrated ground. I don't know. 522 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: I think you end up on an ananimous table. But 523 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: there was criminal justice reform in the early eighteen hundreds 524 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: and fewer executions. There were certainly not enough bodies to 525 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,479 Speaker 1: accommodate the increasing number of medical students, so Anatomous relied 526 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: on grave robbers. Professors around the world simply couldn't teach 527 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: nineteenth century medicine without cadavers. Of course, this terrified devout 528 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: Christians in America and Britain. 529 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 2: So the idea that the body had to be whole 530 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 2: when it was buried, so that when the end of 531 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 2: the world comes, the body can be resurrected. If it's 532 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 2: not whole, then it won't get up to heaven. 533 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: In the early eighteen hundreds, religious leaders in Britain and 534 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: America refuse to allow people to donate or sell their 535 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: bodies to science. Even their organs were considered sacred. That's 536 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: changed in the past century, said Anthony Horn with the 537 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: Catholic Parliamentary Office in Scotland. 538 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 5: Organ donation is a noble and meritorious act and it's 539 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 5: something that we and the church support and would even 540 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 5: encourage the leaf faithful to consider. 541 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: There's quite a lot of controversy about that. In Scotland, 542 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: in July of twenty nineteen, the government passed what's called 543 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: an opt out system for organ and tissue donation. You 544 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: must sign a document if you don't want your tissue 545 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: or organs donated after death. Otherwise it's assumed that donation 546 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: is your wish. Now, this doesn't include body donations right now, 547 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: in most countries, including America, you must opt in to 548 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: donate your organs after you die. You make that choice 549 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: by signing a document like when you renew your driver's license, 550 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: and you can also register online. There's not enough information 551 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: about which is most effective right now. The US ranks 552 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: in the top ten countries for organ donation with the 553 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: opt in system, but the opt out system has dramatically 554 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: increased donations in other countries. Anthony Horn says the Catholic 555 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,439 Speaker 1: Church is concerned about Scotland's opt out system because many 556 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: people just might not have enough information. 557 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 5: And my what he here is that this is almost 558 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 5: like an insidious state ownership of organs until and individual 559 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 5: decides otherwise, until they decide to opt out which I 560 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 5: feel is deeply wading. 561 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: Horn says that the Catholic Church encourages people to give 562 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,720 Speaker 1: the gift of life, but it must be a choice. 563 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: He believes that most people won't have all of that information, 564 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: and that's the concern of many church leaders. Doctor Tom 565 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: Gillingwater agrees that most churches now encourage both organ and 566 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: body donation among their parishioners, but religion can still present 567 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: anatomists with obstacles, and. 568 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 4: Certain cultures and certain religions there is the need to 569 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 4: have a burial within twenty four hours of death. Of course, 570 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 4: that's completely incompatible with that individual donating their body to 571 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 4: the medical school. We have to accept that, we have 572 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,399 Speaker 4: to agree with that. Where I take issue is when 573 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,240 Speaker 4: people with a certain religious belief then try and enforce 574 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 4: their view and everyone else. That's where and we do 575 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 4: run into problems with that. We can have situations where 576 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 4: people think that we should want everything according to their beliefs. 577 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: In eighteen twenty eight, birkenhair effectively eliminated those obstacles for 578 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:40,800 Speaker 1: doctor Robert Knox. They appeared unstoppable for now. Helen McDougall 579 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 1: had been married before to the father of her boy 580 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: and girl. That marriage ended when she began seeing William Burke. 581 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: They have been together for about a decade now, but 582 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: she still kept in touch with the McDougall family in Falkirk, 583 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: a little more than twenty miles northwest of Edinburgh. She 584 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 1: and Burke had visited there in June. A rap on 585 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: the door came in October after they murdered Jamie Wilson 586 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: and the washerwoman. It was Anne McDougall, a cousin of 587 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 1: Nellie's former husband. They invited her inside. Anne drank and 588 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: drank with Nellie and Burke for several nights, exchanging stories 589 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: and gossiping. Along with Burke's relative John Brogan and his family. 590 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: Anne talked about her husband, she was young and happy. 591 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: She enjoyed chatting with all of them. I'm often curious 592 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: about when someone like William Burke decides on a victim 593 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: like his wife's relative. Anne McDougall wasn't a stranger off 594 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: the street. They had likely seen her in Falkirk over 595 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: the summer and then offered her a room. Burke and 596 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: Hare had a conversation about Anne. One night. Hare slipped 597 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: down to doctor Knox's dissecting room and chatted with the porter, 598 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: David Patterson. He asked to borrow a nice trunk for 599 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: another body that they would be expecting quite soon. Was 600 00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: David Patterson suspicious at this point? Perhaps he had himself 601 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: into thinking that they were simply grave robbers. Still, could 602 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: he also be that naive like doctor Knox and his assistants. 603 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:14,240 Speaker 1: Were none of them suspicious at this point? John Brogan 604 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,479 Speaker 1: went to work in the morning, leaving Hare and Burke 605 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: at the house with Anne McDougall. Hare eyed her, but 606 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: Burke pulled him to the side. He was clearly uncomfortable. 607 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,879 Speaker 1: He explained that Hare would have to initiate killing her, 608 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 1: not him. He felt guilty because they were all friends 609 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 1: and family. Hair agreed, and after some more whiskey, he 610 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 1: put his hands over her mouth and nose. She didn't 611 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: struggle as Burke lay over her. Soon Anne McDougall was gone, 612 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 1: and so was any hope of redemption for William Burke. 613 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: And now there was another hitch, and that hitch was 614 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 1: John Brogan, Burke's relative and his landlord. He returned from 615 00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: work in the afternoon and noticed two odd things, a 616 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: new trunk and a missing distant cousin. When he questioned 617 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: Burke and hair. They quietly handed him a dram of 618 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: whiskey and a few pounds in payment for back rent. 619 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: He accepted their explanation and downed his drink, and then 620 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: John Brogan and his family smartly left the city. Now 621 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: William Burke had the house to himself. Later that day, 622 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: the two men carried Anne McDougall's body down to Surgeon's 623 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,479 Speaker 1: Square and received ten pounds. After the pair had murdered 624 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: Jamie Wilson, Burke was now more certain than ever that 625 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:39,959 Speaker 1: here and he were above the law. 626 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 2: He said, at this point he felt they could just 627 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 2: they could do anything. If they could take fit twenty 628 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 2: one year olds off the street, there was no way 629 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 2: anyone was ever going to stop them. 630 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 1: On the next episode of tenfold More Wicked to get. 631 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 2: Cool, because they will just carry you murder un as 632 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 2: somebody catches them. 633 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 3: A nearby inhabitant heard the crimes, then heard footsteps of 634 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,399 Speaker 3: the person being drawn back. 635 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 2: She's looking through the store at the end of the 636 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 2: bed and she discovers this body. 637 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, be sure to order 638 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,240 Speaker 1: my book, American Sherlock. It's about a real life Sherlock 639 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: Holmes who solved some of the most gruesome murders in 640 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties. The paperback arrives on February sixteenth, but 641 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: it's available for pre order now. This has been an 642 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: exactly right and tenfold more media production producers Jason Whaling 643 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: and Laura Sobole, sound designer Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath, 644 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: artwork Nick Toga. Executive producers Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgariff and 645 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,320 Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold 646 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. If you're 647 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, go to 648 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: midroll dot com slash ads, and if you know of 649 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: a historical crime that could use some attention, email us 650 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. So please listen, subscribe, 651 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Ditch, or wherever 652 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.