1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stupidity, home of the greatest media mind ever 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,239 Speaker 1: to walk the planet. Okay, sure, here's the deal. 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 2: He's a true icon in every sense of the word. 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 2: He's loved and feared more than any being. To Grace's plummet, 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 2: there's a bad with a voice that sounds like very 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 2: white and be got say hey, let you with baby. 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: God himself would pay thirty nine ninety nine for a cameo. 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: Fact of the matter is you are about to embark 9 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: on a transcendent experience that can only be described as 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: psychological nudity. 11 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: This iss and this is stupidity. Here we go, jump, 12 00:00:44,680 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 2: Holy Billy, have a question for you. Okay, do I 13 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 2: talk too much golfunks to pototy? 14 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 3: No? 15 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: I mean it's fine. 16 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 4: Stupotity is kind of like your your thing, and this 17 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 4: is your outlet to talk golf. 18 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 2: You can't do it much on the main show. I 19 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 2: don't know though. I mean, Mikey, what do you think. 20 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 3: I was just gonna ask if you think he talks 21 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 3: more golf funkstupotty or jets on god bless football. 22 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 2: Wow, that is an interesting question. 23 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 5: Right, because yeah, because you're sprinting away from the jet discussion, Mikey. 24 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 2: I did not. I don't judge. I'm just asking which 25 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 2: one is more. It's all. It's it's fair criticism. It is. 26 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 2: And if you think I talk too much golf here, 27 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 2: that's also fair criticism. 28 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 4: I mean, so the Jets, obviously, you talk about Aaron Rodgers, 29 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 4: you talk about the expectations leading up to the season, 30 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 4: then you talk about the Rogers injury, and then obviously 31 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 4: you have to talk about Kirk Cousins possibly going there 32 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 4: because he's a first ballot Hall of Famer. 33 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: They get two of those in the same season, of course, 34 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 2: then they beat the Eagles and they almost beat the Chiefs. 35 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean they're doing things to It's not like 36 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 4: we're talking about the Raiders every week, you know, like 37 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 4: they're doing things. 38 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 5: Yes, I mean, the Jets are. They're in market number one. 39 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 5: They're an interesting story. They for the first time ever, Mike, 40 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 5: our team is interesting, which is why I keep talking 41 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 5: about it. But I keep talking about the Dolphins too, 42 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 5: because they're the best team in the NFL. 43 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 2: So I'm just playing the hits. I guess I don't know. 44 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 2: But the golf. 45 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,119 Speaker 5: I wonder if golf is a tune out for most people. 46 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 5: We're gonna have Alan chipknuck On. He's been off before. 47 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 5: He wrote the book on Phil Nicholson. He's now writing 48 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 5: a book about the merger between the EGA Tour and 49 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 5: Lift Golf and how it all went down and how 50 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 5: it happened, and he's great. I am fascinated by this stuff. 51 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 5: But I have a feeling it's a tune out for you, Billy. 52 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 4: No, I mean I'm open to it. Yeah, I feel 53 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 4: like I'm coming around, you know me. I'm a big 54 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 4: golf guy. If you notice the clubs, yeah, yeah, the clubs, well, 55 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 4: the story behind that is the answer is they're right 56 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 4: here right off. 57 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 58 00:02:58,800 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 2: I just. 59 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 4: Moved them out of this shot because we had Raheem 60 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 4: Mostered on earlier this week for good bless football. Later 61 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 4: in the week, Yeah, and the last name he was on, 62 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 4: Secott's pointed them out because they were being chummy, talking 63 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 4: about golfing together and being good friends, the two of them, 64 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 4: and then they started making fun of the golf clubs 65 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 4: that I had in the background, which really exists there 66 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 4: because I don't have any other place to put them. 67 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 4: And then Raheem Moster was making fun of me. So 68 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 4: when we had raheem on again. I thought, you know what, 69 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 4: I'm gonna move these so that the golf clubs do 70 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 4: not become a topic of discussion again. And then I 71 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,679 Speaker 4: simply forgot to put them back behind me for a 72 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 4: book about golf. So I'm really really killing it today. 73 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 5: I asked Billy earlier offline, Mikey, I said, I asked 74 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 5: them about the golf clubs, and he said, those golf 75 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 5: clubs are shitty, and I said, the golf clubs are fine. 76 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: Billy, it's the guy who's using that that shitty. 77 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 4: Well, you didn't say all that, you strongly implied it 78 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 4: because he was talking about a. 79 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: Golf fighter once. I mean, yeah, he's talking about a 80 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: golf outing. 81 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 4: I'm like, I mean he's like going to take your 82 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 4: golf club and I'm like, oh, you're gonna take your 83 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 4: golf clothes. 84 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: I'm like, they're not the best golf clubs. Like, it's 85 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: not the golf clothes. I'm like, okay, I'm necessary. 86 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 5: Get it. 87 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: I did. I've been back at you so unnecessary. I'm sorry. 88 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 2: So I think so, Stu, I think you should play 89 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: with those golf clubs. They're not will play with left 90 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: I'm a lefty, Bill, he's a righty. What are we 91 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: gonna we can't do that. 92 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 3: I still don't understand that. 93 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 4: I still don't understand it because you're not a lefty 94 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 4: at everything. 95 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 2: So it's weird. I don't understand it either. 96 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 5: To be to be quite honest with you, I am 97 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 5: any any sport that involves a stick or a club baseball, hockey, lacrosse, golf. 98 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 5: I'm a lefty, but when I throw them righty, I 99 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 5: write with my right hand. I'm a strange guy, Billy. 100 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agreed. In case you haven't noticed. 101 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 5: Are you excited for this? Alan chip Nook? He's a 102 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 5: great author. He's been off with those three times now. 103 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 2: I am excited. 104 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,239 Speaker 4: I'm also starting to like so I piecing this together, Mikey. 105 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 4: So we have the golfers on right after they win 106 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 4: a big tournament because two guys wants to talk to 107 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 4: them because they're winners. 108 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 2: And then we have that. 109 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 5: That's worked out, Billy, because Wyndam Clark we had on 110 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 5: after he won like just a you know, run of 111 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 5: the mill PGA event, and then. 112 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 4: He won the US Open, so yeah, and we got 113 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 4: him after that too, and we got him after that, right, Yeah, 114 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 4: but also I'm starting to realize you're talking to the 115 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 4: golf authors, so you don't have to read the book. 116 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, it's a good strategy. Yes, tell 117 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: me about your book. Yes, so I don't have to 118 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: read it. I mean, honestly, who has time to read nowadays? 119 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 2: Like for real? 120 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 4: It's so it's so like, I appreciate you guys coming on. 121 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 4: I want to support what you're doing, but like you 122 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 4: want me to commit like hours and hours to sitting 123 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 4: down and reading the book. 124 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 2: Like if I have hours and hours, it's gonna be 125 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: doing something I want to do. It's not reading a book. 126 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: Don't get the book though it's out now. That's a 127 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: thank you. But he's been very good, solid, very nice guy. 128 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 2: He's got a great air that has been for Billy. 129 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 5: Though he feels like our show puts out too much content, 130 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 5: he does, and he's right. 131 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 2: All this. 132 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 4: No, I told I told Secott so I was in 133 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 4: jury duty earlier this week, and I told him that 134 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 4: I had an idea where I was just going to 135 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 4: take notes on the entire episode and come in with 136 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,239 Speaker 4: notes the next day. And then I started that process 137 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 4: and I was like, oh man, this is a lot 138 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 4: there's a lot of audio listening that I need to do. 139 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 4: And my plan was to do it in the car 140 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 4: drive on the way home from jury duty, on the 141 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 4: way into work, and I was like, I, they were 142 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 4: long drives and I ran out of time. 143 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 2: And you would never listen to your house, right, Like, 144 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 2: who does that? 145 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 4: It's not that I wouldn't, it's that I just like 146 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 4: Mikey gets it. 147 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: You got it at a time. There's just when it's impossible. Yeah, 148 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 2: there's not enough time, especially where you guys are at 149 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: in your lines right now. 150 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 3: There's there's a lot of walls that need to be 151 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 3: stared at blankly before I can start doing things like that. 152 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 2: I wish I had walls during time, honestly miss it. 153 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 2: How much would you pay to stare at a wall 154 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 2: the entire day? Good walls there? 155 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 4: So you want to know something funny, you want to 156 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 4: something funny. So, like, we work with different people, and 157 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 4: one of the people that we work with helps us 158 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 4: with guests. So like yesterday she was reaching out and 159 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 4: asking me, like making suggestions like would you take this person? 160 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 4: Would you take that person? And I text your back, 161 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry that I haven't really 162 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 4: gotten back to you today. I'm in jury duty, so 163 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 4: like I got to check it a little later and 164 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 4: I'll get back to you, to which she replied, a wow, 165 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 4: you have jury duty on top of everything else you 166 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 4: have going on. She goes, Honestly, jury duty sounds like 167 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 4: it's probably like a nice break for you. 168 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: And I thought about it. 169 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 4: I'm like, you know what, it was really so dang, 170 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 4: maybe you should have tried harder to get on a 171 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 4: jury I just chilled there for like four days, just 172 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 4: sit there in the ac listening to a case. 173 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: You know. 174 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, free lunch brought to you. 175 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah. You don't have to do with your kids. 176 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: You don't have to deal with your dogs, your wife, 177 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: most of you to deal with me. I mean, so 178 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 2: I had a crazy. I had a crazy. 179 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 4: It was like six or seven months after my first 180 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 4: daughter was born, and I had a kidney stone and 181 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 4: I got like admitted to the hospital because they needed 182 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 4: to pay, like paying killers and all this stuff. Right, 183 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 4: It's not the first time that I've had it, but 184 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 4: I got admitted and I was there and like, you know, 185 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 4: my daughter is just a baby, and my mom was 186 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 4: there at the beginning, And then I told her like 187 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 4: you just, you know, go home. Are you going to 188 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,679 Speaker 4: stay with me in the hospital overnight? And like whatever, 189 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 4: I'll figure it out. So I stayed alone at the hospital, 190 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 4: like going through the kidney stone, because I just sent 191 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 4: everybody home. 192 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 2: Great night to sleep. 193 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 4: I mean it was probably it was probably the tor 194 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 4: doll and everything that they had like pumped into me. 195 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 4: But like, man, I always thought like being alone in 196 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 4: the hospital be like really depressing and terrible. And even 197 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 4: though I was there, I was like sad. I'm like, man, 198 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 4: I got a good like four straight hours, this is great. 199 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: Are you ready for another kidney stone. 200 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 4: I'm drinking soda. I'm not drinking water. I'm doing everything 201 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 4: red meat. I'm just like in it, like I'm not 202 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,599 Speaker 4: even cooking the meat. Cook me up some stones, you 203 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 4: know what I mean? 204 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 2: I do know what. Let's get to Alan ship Knock. 205 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: I love you, Billy. 206 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 5: Alan ship Knock going to join us. He is a 207 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 5: great author. He's a regular on the show. He has 208 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 5: a new book, Gap Live and Let Die, the inside 209 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 5: story of the war between the PGA Tour and Live Golf. 210 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: What's going on out. 211 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 3: I'm delighted I've been upgraded to regular. Thanks for having 212 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 3: me again. I appreciate it. 213 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: I mean, if you're stop writing books and we'll we 214 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 2: won't bring you on anymore. 215 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,719 Speaker 3: I mean enough, No, it's uh this this will be 216 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 3: a lively conversation. I'm here to answer any questions. Fire 217 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 3: will fire away. 218 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 2: Uh why'd you write the book? Let's start there. 219 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: I think this is the biggest golf story of the century, 220 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 3: you know, certainly non Tiger Woods division. And it's an 221 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 3: incredible mix of you have these these blockbuster protagonists, I 222 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 3: mean every golfer who's mattered over the last quarter century, 223 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 3: including Tiger and Phil, but obviously Rory and Bryson and 224 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 3: Brooks and Dustin and and then you have you have 225 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 3: Donald Trump, you have Mohammed bin Salman, the crown Prince 226 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 3: of Saudi Arabia. You have this guy Yah Sir Aldramayan 227 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 3: who's now runs professional golf to some degree. So just 228 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 3: this incredible cast. And then I've got these like big 229 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 3: Shakespearean themes about around your greed and betrayal and vengeance 230 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 3: and legacy and loyalty. I mean, stuff transcends golf, transcend sports. 231 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 3: I mean it's really so such a human story. And 232 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 3: then these incredibly complex geopolitical questions around the Saudi money 233 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 3: and sports washing and all and all the playing out 234 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 3: in real time, and it just it was a fascinating project. 235 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 3: I learned so much about so much, And you know, 236 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 3: I spend obsessively followed this story, and I don't think 237 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 3: anyone else could could bring that level of attention. So 238 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 3: I feel like I'm kind of a tour guide for fans. 239 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 3: You know, part of it, or they've tuned in here 240 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 3: and there, but they want to know more, and they 241 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 3: want to really know the inside tail of what actually happened, 242 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:16,839 Speaker 3: because there's been so much spin and there's been so 243 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 3: much propaganda. So you know, hopefully I succeeded just bring 244 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 3: it all together in one place, and it's education educational, 245 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 3: but more importantly, it's entertaining. 246 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 4: I have a two parter here, So One, how surprised 247 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 4: were you, I guess when there was a merger of sorts? 248 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 4: And two do you wish it would have happened after 249 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 4: the book came out? 250 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 2: Uh? 251 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 3: No, I'm delighted it happened when it did, because if 252 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 3: the book had gone to print and then this came down, 253 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 3: I would have been devastated, you know, it would have 254 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 3: been a gaping hole in the story, and people said, well, 255 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 3: how can you put the book out now? We don't 256 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,599 Speaker 3: know how how it ends, But I would argue that 257 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 3: we do. I mean, there's only three possibilities like either 258 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 3: this framemwerk codeem this framework agreement will get consummated, it'll 259 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 3: blow up, or what's emerging is the most likely scenario 260 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 3: where the Saudis bring in. There are some other outside 261 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 3: investors come in private equity, and the Saudi steak is 262 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,719 Speaker 3: diluted a little bit and their influence, and that makes 263 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 3: it more palatable for the public, for the players, and 264 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 3: for Congress most importantly so. But I lay out all 265 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 3: three scenarios in the last chapter, and I think I'm covered, 266 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 3: come what may. But the original final chapter, before all 267 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 3: this stuff happened right as you know that at the 268 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 3: end of the timeline, was that I was kind of 269 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 3: forecasting how it could play out, and I did anticipate 270 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 3: a quote unquote merger, but I thought I was gonna 271 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 3: take a lot longer. The speed and the secrecy was 272 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 3: kind of stunning. But golf has to come back together. 273 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 3: There's not enough stars to support even one tour, let 274 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 3: alone too, and to try and reintegrate all the top 275 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 3: players into the big events is really important for the sport, 276 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 3: and so it makes sense to try and to try 277 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 3: and put it back together. But it's impressive the way. 278 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 3: I mean, the PGA Tour is not good at a 279 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 3: lot of things, but they're really good at keeping a 280 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 3: secret apparently, because even their top players that know this 281 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 3: was happening. So it was definitely a thunderbolt. But I 282 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 3: am happy that I was able to write about it 283 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 3: and report on it and bring some insight and analysis 284 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 3: to it. 285 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 5: Alan, can you can you tell us the details around 286 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 5: how the idea for. 287 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 2: The live tour was hatched? 288 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's it's an in some ways his 289 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 3: books like the biography of an idea. Because this whole 290 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 3: thing started this one nerdy golf fan in London named 291 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,839 Speaker 3: Andy Gardner. He's a lawyer. He watches a lot of 292 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 3: golf and he, just like probably a lot of us, 293 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 3: felt like it had gotten a little tired and a 294 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 3: little bloated and it needed to be refreshed. And so 295 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 3: he was pretty well connected. Guy, excuse me. He started 296 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 3: talking to stakeholders in the game, including Ry McRoy and 297 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 3: Keith Pelly of the European Tour, and he started filling 298 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 3: up these you know, yellow legal tablets with his ideas 299 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 3: and ultimately this led to the birth of the Premier 300 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 3: Golf League, which was a reimagination of the professional game. 301 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 3: And but Andy Gardner was an idealist, he was not 302 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 3: a closer. He could never quite launch it. He never 303 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 3: had enough money to lure the players or to get 304 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 3: the Premiere Golf League. But he did bring in the 305 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 3: Saudis as investors. That was one of their footholds in 306 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 3: professional golf, and they pledged five hundred million dollars. But 307 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 3: when the Premiere Golf League failed to launch, the Saudis realized, 308 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 3: we don't need this guy, we can do it ourselves, 309 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 3: and they basically just cut and pasted his entire idea 310 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 3: and put all their resources and created Live Golf. But 311 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 3: it's incredible that the sport has been shaped so much 312 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 3: by basically an outsider with a dream. And he didn't 313 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 3: get it across the finish line. But he was the spark. 314 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: You well, why did the PGA. 315 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 5: Was there anything the PGA Tour could have done to 316 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 5: prevent this from happening? 317 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Gardner tried to forge a partnership with 318 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 3: the PGA Tour to bring the PGL events under the 319 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 3: banner of the PGA Tour, a tour within the tour, 320 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 3: and he put a full court press on Rory when 321 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 3: he was because he was now part of the board 322 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 3: of directors and he was trying to get a meeting 323 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: with Jay Monaghan. Monahan would not take the meeting, like 324 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 3: he just didn't want to give any oxygen to this 325 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 3: potential competitor. It works, he was able to kill the PGL. 326 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 3: But he tried the same playbook with the Saudis, but 327 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 3: they had the money and the resolve to get it done. 328 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: And so. 329 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 3: One of the it's one of the kind of emotional 330 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 3: high points of the book, I think, is when the 331 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 3: Saudis break from the PGL, they decide they're gonna they're 332 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 3: going to try and get into professional golf in a 333 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 3: huge way on their own. Their number two guys name 334 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 3: is Migeede al Sarhor. He sends a letter to Jay 335 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 3: Monahan saying we want to partner with the tour, we 336 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 3: want to invest in the tour, and he sends us 337 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 3: and Monahan he refuses to even take pick up the 338 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 3: phone and talk to this guy, and then he won't 339 00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 3: have it. He won't even give the letter or the 340 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 3: detail to his full board of directors. Finally, one of 341 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 3: the player directors says, why are we not talking to 342 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 3: the Saudi guys? It was Charlie Hoffman, and Monahan says, 343 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 3: we do not negotiate with someone who's trying to ruin 344 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 3: the PGA tour like we are at war. We are 345 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 3: at war, at war, at war. And he said this 346 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 3: in a board meeting. And you know, no one's ever 347 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 3: known about this letter, a about all the stuff that 348 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 3: happened behind the scenes. And that was like my mandate 349 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 3: for the book was to bring this stuff, it all 350 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 3: happened in secret, and bring it out into the sunlight 351 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 3: for fans and other stakeholders to understand how we got 352 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 3: to this moment. And that's a foundational part of the 353 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 3: story is Monahan's refusal, And of course he goes on 354 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 3: to demonize the Saudi's and their money and make this 355 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 3: a moral argument. He brings the nine to eleven families 356 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 3: into the conversation, but ultimately the tour runs out of 357 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 3: money and he has to go to this tale between 358 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,119 Speaker 3: his legs to try and to try and forge to compromise. 359 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 3: And if you gave Jay Monahan a time machine, I'm 360 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 3: sure when that letter lands on his desk with a thud, 361 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 3: that he would pick up the phone. He'd make the 362 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 3: phone call. Because but whether it was hubris, whether it 363 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 3: was bad business acumen, whether he overrated the value of 364 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 3: the PGA Tour to its players, he made. He made 365 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 3: the wrong call at a critical moment. 366 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 2: How and when did Greg Norman get involved? 367 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 3: I mean it starts. It starts in the nineties when 368 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 3: Norman had this idea for a world tour that was 369 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 3: going to be a competitor of the PGA Tour, and 370 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 3: he got a fellow Australian iconic class Rupert Murdock to 371 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 3: fund it. And Norman his fatal mistake was he didn't 372 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 3: he didn't talk to the tour, he didn't talk to 373 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 3: their players. He kind of acted unilaterally and they The 374 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 3: backlash was so severe that Norman became a pariah in 375 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 3: the game. You know, the PJ Tour commissioner Tim Pincham 376 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 3: killed the idea and then he stole it once again 377 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 3: history repeats itself, and he created the World Golf Championships 378 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 3: and he just flat out stole the idea, and Norman 379 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 3: has been embittered ever since, and he's nursed this grudge 380 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 3: against the tour. He's never let go of this idea 381 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 3: that golf should be more global, which is probably a 382 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 3: good idea and he's probably right on the merits. But 383 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 3: he finally found someone to buy into the vision, and 384 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 3: it was these Saudis who were, you know, kind of 385 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 3: blinded by his star power and his charisma and they 386 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 3: didn't really, I think fully understand because they were outsiders 387 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 3: that how talks that Greg Norman is and by making 388 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 3: him the head of Live Golf, in some ways, that 389 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 3: was an act of war against the establishment, and that's 390 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 3: that helped perpetuate the bitterness and the divides. But yeah, 391 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 3: so Norman's had this idea, you know, going back to 392 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 3: the early nineties. It's incredible that it's finally come, It's 393 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 3: finally happening. 394 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 5: It's fascinating. Alan Chipknuck is with us. New book is out, 395 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 5: Live and Let Die, the inside story of the war 396 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 5: between the PGA Tour. 397 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 2: And Live Golf. 398 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 5: You spoke to so many fascinating people who are involved 399 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 5: in this story, and so I am asking you for 400 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 5: the metal stand of shocking things that you discovered while 401 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 5: you were putting this book together, broad silver gold, like 402 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 5: just shocking things you found out as you were putting 403 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 5: this thing together. 404 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's a thought provoking question. You know, there's 405 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 3: the Michelson biography. There's probably not an earthquake on the 406 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 3: on par with you know his quote about the scary 407 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 3: Mofos and and all that, like that was that was 408 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 3: a thunderbowlt. But yeah, I would say the that's your 409 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 3: gold is what you're saying, like like, well, I mean, 410 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 3: I'm saying that's that's a high standard the gold for 411 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 3: this book. I think gold has to be what we 412 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 3: were talking about with with Monahan, the letter, the board meeting, Yes, 413 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 3: this declaration of of uh of really a war, and 414 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 3: so that would be number one silver medal. 415 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 4: I think. 416 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 3: It probably it has to be the com and it's 417 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 3: hard to pick out one. I would just say the 418 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 3: complexity of the characters throughout this whole book, because there's 419 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 3: not a lot of like black and white good guy, 420 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 3: bad guy. It's much more nuanced and so like you know, 421 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 3: Jay Monahan, for all his mistakes he did make, he 422 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 3: did make, he didn't lead the tour through COVID masterfully 423 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 3: and he did kill the pgl and he has gotten 424 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 3: his players a two or three time ex you know, raise, 425 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 3: which is his mandate. So you is he is he 426 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 3: the hero of the villain? I mean he's kind of both. 427 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 3: Same with Norman. You know, this guy you see all 428 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 3: remind he would make a great bad guy. You know, 429 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 3: he's kind of a shadowy figure from the other side 430 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 3: of the world. He's got all the money and all 431 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 3: the power, but he does love golf. He believes in golf. 432 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 3: He's a purist like his as an ambassador for the sport, 433 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 3: as a as a missionary, like he believes in what 434 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 3: he's selling, like it can be a vehicle to to 435 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 3: create relationships and to change societies. And so like I 436 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 3: guess the silver Medal is all these guys who popping 437 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 3: out of the story, who are are more redimensional than 438 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 3: we presumed, and their motivations are more interesting and it's 439 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 3: not just greed, Like it's been very easy to dismiss 440 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 3: the live players to say and they just sold out 441 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 3: and took the money. And obviously that's true on some level, 442 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 3: Like the money was the inducement. But like Bryce and 443 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 3: the Shambo told me, and there was like actual pain 444 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:18,959 Speaker 3: in his voice. You know, six years in a row 445 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 3: he tried to get elected to the Player Advisory Council 446 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 3: on the PGA Tour and which is really a nothing organization. 447 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 3: It has no power, but it's like being it's like 448 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 3: running for office in junior high. You know, it's a 449 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 3: popularity contest. He wanted to be asb president and six 450 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 3: years in a row his peers rejected him, and he's like, 451 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 3: I guess they just don't like me and they don't 452 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 3: like my ideas. Like he was wounded. He had to 453 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 3: go to live golf to be to have a voice 454 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,959 Speaker 3: and to have a leadership position and to be validated. 455 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 3: And so obviously the money was a factor. No one's 456 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 3: gonna say that's not true, but there was more in 457 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 3: play there. And so, I mean those are ten different examples, 458 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 3: but the silver medal is that it's the humanity, right, 459 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 3: I mean, the bronze. There's so many things in this 460 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 3: book that make me laugh. 461 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 2: We'll give me one of those. That's what I'm looking for. 462 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, let me call this up because I can 463 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 3: find the text. It's you know, Paul Casey, who was 464 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 3: an ambassador for UNICEF and he refused to go play 465 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 3: in the Saudi Tournament for years because he felt, you know, 466 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 3: he talked about the kids in Yemen from the bombing 467 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 3: who were starving and all this and that, and it 468 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 3: was a very principled stance. And then he goes to 469 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 3: live golf and like completely tosses all that stuff aside, 470 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 3: and naturally he came up for some criticism and he 471 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 3: was defensive about it. So at the British Open in 472 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, it's his first tournament since he went 473 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 3: to live golf, where he's kind of back in mixing 474 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 3: with players from other tours and Jamie Weir, who's become 475 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 3: a source of some intrigue in the golf media. He 476 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 3: goes up, he's a Sky Sports reporter. He goes up 477 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 3: to ask Casey if you can do an interview, and 478 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 3: you know, Casey is immediately on the defensive and he says, 479 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 3: what do you want to ask me about? And we're says, well, 480 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 3: you know, talk about it's the Open, how's your back feeling? 481 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 3: And I'll end with like a live question, and you know, 482 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 3: Casey says, you know when he hears it's going to 483 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 3: be about live. So this is from the book. I'm 484 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 3: gonna read this part because it's so funny. 485 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 2: Okay, this is this is Jamie we are speaking, he. 486 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 3: Says, his face darkened. He said, fuck off, go fuck yourself. 487 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 3: What a fucking shit question. Go fuck yourself. That's a 488 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 3: shitty fucking question from a shitty fucking reporter. And I said, Paul, 489 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 3: you're massively overreacting this. He was like, no, I'm not, 490 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 3: go fuck yourself. Fuck you and fuck your interview. This 491 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 3: is a golf book. And then so I call up Casey, 492 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 3: you know, after I've heard this from Jamie Weir, because 493 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 3: of course I needed to get his side of the story. 494 00:23:58,359 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 2: And so. 495 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 3: Casey says, that's a fairly accurate recounting. But what is 496 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 3: missing is the fact he sauntered over, invaded my space, 497 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 3: and interjected himself into an environment where he's not invited. 498 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 3: What he actually said was, this is probably going to 499 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 3: be the last major championship you ever play. He's just 500 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 3: assuming I'm going to fail. I could have won that open. 501 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 3: I'm an exempt for another twenty five years. I was 502 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 3: there grinding on my game, and it was his smugness 503 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 3: that got me. I can debate with anybody, but he 504 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 3: was just being a dickhead. You know what, Jamie where 505 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 3: can go fuck himself again? 506 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: That's the gold medal right there. I mean, it's so. 507 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 3: Unbelievably funny, but what it speaks to is the energy 508 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 3: around this story, the bitterness, the just the raw emotion. 509 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 2: Even the embarrassments. 510 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 3: The embarrassment. You know, Paul Casey, his legacy is at stake, 511 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 3: right Like, he spent twenty years winning golf around the world. 512 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 3: He's always conducted himself as a gentleman. I think he's 513 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 3: a mostly liked figure in the sport. He goes to 514 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 3: live and all of a sudden he knows that everyone's 515 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 3: pounding him, and he just snaps. He just totally loses 516 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 3: his mind. And it tells you how deep this ran 517 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 3: and how personal it was. This wasn't just a business story. 518 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 3: It was just a golf story. I mean, this is 519 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 3: about like humanity, and so it's obviously it's funny, but 520 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 3: it's also poignant because that's how that's how much was 521 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 3: bottled up inside of him and everybody went to live. 522 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 2: I want to give We're a golf clap just for 523 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 2: pissing off Gaycy that much. 524 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 3: I mean, and you know, honestly, like I I've been 525 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 3: on the receiving end of that. Even like earlier this 526 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 3: last week, Justin Thomas came at me on Twitter, and 527 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 3: you know his critique. You know, he said, I'm sick 528 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 3: of Aalance shipknuck like not writing more positive things about golf. 529 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 2: It's like. 530 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 3: It's such an eyroll. We are in the middle of 531 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 3: the most contentious period in the history of the and 532 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 3: it is not my role to whitewash it. And I'm 533 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 3: not a publicist. I'm a reporter, and you know my 534 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 3: job in this book. And I wasn't pro live, I 535 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 3: wasn't pro tour like I played it down the middle. 536 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 3: It was just to tell the story completely accurately and 537 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 3: fairly about what really happened. And you know, for for 538 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 3: Justin to be so bent out of shape because I'm 539 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 3: not parroting the official version of the PGA Tour and 540 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 3: I'm not celebrating you know, these guys who screwed a 541 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 3: lot of things up, Like it's very revealing. And you 542 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 3: know you also also in that tweet, he said something about, 543 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 3: you know, I'm sick of Allen like making money, you know, 544 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 3: writing story. That's like he's going to make more money 545 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 3: finishing dead last at a no cut elevated tournament which 546 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 3: only exists because I Live Golf, than anyone on the 547 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 3: golf beat is going to make this year. But the 548 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 3: pros have gotten so greedy, they're so voracious, it's never enough. 549 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 3: And that's part of this story too. I mean it's 550 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 3: it traces this corrosive effect of money that came into 551 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 3: the sport in a way unparalleled amounts, and it became 552 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 3: like this, this X ray machine of the soul a 553 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 3: lot of these guys, and uh, it didn't reflect well 554 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 3: on a lot of them. And again it's not my 555 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 3: role to whitewash that, like this is who they are. 556 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 3: These are the choices they made, and so that that 557 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 3: justin has so been out of shape that I'm trying 558 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 3: to do my job. I thought said more about him 559 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 3: than about me. 560 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 5: Honestly, who turned down the most amount of money, well, 561 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 5: Haideki Matsuyama. 562 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 3: He would have been the highest paid player on Live 563 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 3: golf because even before I Live launched, Norman and I 564 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 3: did him as their primary target because the thinking was 565 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 3: if if you get Hideki, you get the entire Asian market, 566 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,239 Speaker 3: and you would they would you would get all these 567 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 3: blue chip companies to be sponsors. 568 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 2: And so. 569 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 3: He was offered over three hundred million dollars and he 570 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 3: turned it down. So that's he's the clear answer. But 571 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 3: then you could also say Tiger it never even got 572 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 3: to the point of an official offer because he had 573 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 3: made his disdain clear. But what's interesting is they were 574 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 3: going to give him his own franchise on Live. Like 575 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 3: you know, there's these other captains like like Phil and 576 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 3: Bryce and books they have twenty five percent equity in 577 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 3: those teams. They're going to give Tiger one hundred percent 578 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,719 Speaker 3: of the team, but they're also going to give him 579 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,719 Speaker 3: equity and Live itself as an enterprise that that can 580 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 3: create that potentially can create a lot of revenue. And 581 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 3: so you know, one of the executive who was part 582 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 3: of the negotiations told me, like, there's a lot of 583 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 3: goats who buy a franchise, you know, whether it's Derek Jeter, 584 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 3: now it's Tom Brady, but we're gonna make him the 585 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 3: goat of all goats, and he was going to own 586 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 3: part of the league itself. You know, like that's unheard of. 587 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 3: So it's hard to put a value on what that 588 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 3: could have been. 589 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 2: Worth. 590 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 3: But you know they're they're they're ultimate goals to sell 591 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 3: these franchises for five hundred million dollars. I mean you 592 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 3: could come. You know, Norman said it was high nine figures. 593 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 3: That's probably missed it because it's a lot of speculative money, 594 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 3: but no doubt it would have been a windfall for 595 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 3: Tiger potentially. So those are the two answers. But you know, 596 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 3: a lot of guys turned down a lot of money. 597 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 3: Ricky Fowler turned down seventy five million dollars. So did 598 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 3: Patrick Cantley. And you know followers near the end of 599 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 3: his career. He won once and it's been like this renaissance, 600 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 3: but now he's got to do it again and again 601 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 3: and again even ever sniff anything close to that. And 602 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 3: Cantley has become this lightning rod because he's on the 603 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 3: board of directors and he's known to be a devisive 604 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 3: force and trying to get this framework agreement consummated. And 605 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 3: when you know you've turned down seventy five million dollars, 606 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 3: now you understand why he's so salty about the whole thing. 607 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 3: So a lot of guys turned down a lot of money. 608 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 5: Live and let Die is out right now the inside 609 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 5: story of the war between the PGA Tour and Live Golf. 610 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 5: Alan Chipnuk, the author is joining us so many fascinating 611 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 5: names that are involved in this. So I'm just going 612 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 5: to say a name and you. 613 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 2: Tell me what their role was in this whole live 614 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 2: PGA Tour thing. Okay, Donald Trump. 615 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 3: I mean it goes back chapter five of this book. 616 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 3: I trace the history of Saudi Arabia going back to 617 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 3: when the oil was discovered in nineteen thirty eight and 618 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 3: the road to nine to eleven, the rise of NBS, 619 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 3: the killing of Jamal Koshogi. It's like, what is this 620 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 3: doing in a golf book? 621 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 2: But it's so. 622 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 3: Germane to why they are investing billions of dollars into sports, 623 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 3: watching the reputation through golf because they've, as Phil accurately said, 624 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 3: you know, NBS is a scary motherfucker and they're trying 625 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 3: to cleanse his reputation for the Western world. And after 626 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 3: Koushogi was killed, the only ally the NBS had in 627 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 3: global politics was the President United States Donald Trump, and 628 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 3: he helped keep him in power. And he said to 629 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 3: Bob Woodward, like I saved his ass, Like Trump do it? 630 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 3: And now Trump is hosting these live golf events, being 631 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 3: paid millions of dollars by the Public Investment Fund, and 632 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 3: on some level it's a thank you for his advocacy, 633 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 3: and it's The Trump Live Nexus has been very problematic 634 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 3: for Live. You know, the first event at Bedminister, he 635 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,959 Speaker 3: had that mag rally where he had Tucker Carlson, Marjorie 636 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 3: Taylor Green and that really damaged Live in the marketplace 637 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 3: because big brands are a political they don't want any controversy, 638 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 3: and so Live was out there trying to cut deals 639 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 3: with all these these blue chip corporations. They saw that 640 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 3: and they all ran for the hills. And you know, 641 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 3: three of the events this year on the LIFT schedule 642 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 3: are at Trump properties. Like he's he's an integral part 643 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 3: of what live golf has been and so he's just 644 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 3: a complicating factor in all of it. 645 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, one of those is in Miami this week, So 646 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 5: that's that's kind of interesting at Trump are out Jack Nicholas. 647 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 3: I mean, it's kind of funny because Jack Nicholas wound 648 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 3: up suing himself and Saudi money was in the center 649 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 3: of it. You know, he he sold fifty one percent 650 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 3: of his interest in the Jack Nicholas Companies, and the 651 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 3: company he wound up suing the man himself, and the 652 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 3: centerpiece of the whole lawsuit was that Jack wanted to 653 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 3: take the Saudi money and become part of the Live 654 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 3: leadership as his figurehead, and the company had to talk 655 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 3: him out of it because it would have damaged their 656 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 3: brand so much. And then Jack wound up countersuing for 657 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 3: slander for some of the statements that were made around this. 658 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 3: And again it's like and Jack is also close friends 659 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 3: with Donald Trump. He famously endorsed him in twenty twenty 660 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 3: presidential election and I'm sorry twenty sixteen. And so it's 661 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 3: just been it's been a very messy late period in 662 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 3: Jack's life. I mean, he's eighty something years old. He 663 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 3: should just be this grand old man of the game. 664 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 3: But the Saudi money, the Saudi influence has even besmirched 665 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 3: Jack Nicholas. And it's fascinating to unwind all that in 666 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 3: the book. 667 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 2: How much money was he looking to get, well. 668 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 3: So that's disputed. Jack himself said they had offered him 669 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 3: a hundred million dollars to basically have the Greg Norman role, 670 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 3: which doesn't really track because at eighty two years old. 671 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 3: Is Jack going to go to fourteen events around the 672 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 3: world and be part of every business meeting and every 673 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 3: zoom call like obviously not. The Live guys told me 674 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 3: they were going to create a more ceremonial position, like 675 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 3: they're talking about the Jack Nicholas Trophy that would go to, 676 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 3: you know, the individual champion on their points race every year. 677 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 3: And what was interesting about this reporting this book is 678 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 3: everyone was always spinning me and telling me things that 679 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,479 Speaker 3: didn't check out. And so they had the Crux lawsuit. 680 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 3: Is this meeting that happened in Florida between the Live 681 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 3: people and Jack and his associates and what was said 682 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 3: and what happened is the centerpiece of this lawsuit. And 683 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 3: so after months of cajoling, begging, threatening, I finally got 684 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 3: two people to talk to me. One was a Live 685 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 3: Golf executive who was there in the room. The other 686 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 3: was one of Jack's inner circle. He was there in 687 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 3: the room too, and their description of what happened pull 688 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 3: their opposites. It was like they were not even in 689 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 3: the same place at the same time. And it tells 690 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 3: you how much bullshit is floating around. So I wasn't 691 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 3: in the room. I don't know what happened. I couldn't 692 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 3: get anyone else there to talk to me, So what's 693 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 3: the truth? It's unknowable from my perspective. So what I 694 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,720 Speaker 3: did is I just printed back to back the statements 695 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 3: from both parties and let the reader kind of decide 696 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 3: who they really believe. And there might be a little 697 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 3: shadowing of some of the words and the setup, like 698 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 3: I might have tipped my hand slightly, but you know, 699 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 3: ultimately that was one of the great challenges in this 700 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 3: is that there was like this information war that was 701 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 3: playing out in this saga, certainly on social media, definitely 702 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 3: impressed conferences without a doubt, and all these private chats 703 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 3: between Jay bon Ann and his players, and so that 704 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 3: was the challenge, was to constantly cut through all that 705 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 3: and get to the heart of the story and tell 706 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 3: it in a complete and accurate way. 707 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,240 Speaker 2: Dustin and Paulina Johnson. 708 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 3: Like wow, yeah, I mean, you know, Dustin is a 709 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 3: crucial piece in all this. He was the only blue 710 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,760 Speaker 3: chip player who signed up for the first live event, 711 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 3: and it. 712 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 2: Was because I knew what was re allowing is what 713 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 2: Dustin signed up for. 714 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 3: And if they hadn't gotten him, they would it would 715 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 3: have it could have folded overnight because they had nobody else. 716 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 3: Dustin gave it credibility and he's the reason why the 717 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 3: next week Bryson and Patrick Reid signed on, and he's 718 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 3: the reason why Taylor Goots went as well. Like and 719 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:27,720 Speaker 3: those are some of these the three most important players 720 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 3: because they're they're in their primes, you know, Goots, Red 721 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 3: and Bryson, like they were risking a lot to give 722 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 3: up on the PGA tour. And so, you know, Dustin 723 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 3: was crucial in the launch of Live and he's been 724 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 3: in his own way. He's been a great ambassador for 725 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,479 Speaker 3: Live because everyone likes Dustin. He he has not talked 726 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 3: to any ship, to the other players. 727 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 2: He did not. 728 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 3: Participate in the lawsuits. He just kept his mouth closed 729 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 3: and cashed the checks. And I think that that help, 730 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 3: you know, simmer things down, you had. You know, Phil's 731 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 3: been very uppity, Lee Westwood, Ian Poulter, they've been chirpy, 732 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 3: but you know, Dustin kind of stayed above the fray. 733 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 3: And it is like, Okay, I can't totally hate Live 734 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 3: because I like Dustin. I like watching him play, and 735 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 3: he's not a bad dude. So he he's meant a lot. 736 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 2: To live golf. All right, last two and we'll let 737 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 2: you go here. Rory. 738 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, Rory's a fascinating character in this book. I mean, 739 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 3: he's certainly been celebrated as you know, the conscience of 740 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 3: golf and as this kind of this white night for 741 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,959 Speaker 3: the PGA Tour, and he has put himself on the line, 742 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 3: but he's also been a troll throughout this whole thing. 743 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 3: He's taken a lot of personal shots. And it's funny 744 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 3: when you know this war of words he's had with 745 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 3: Greg Norman. You know I laid out in the book. 746 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 3: It starts over some pity text messages like he went 747 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 3: on this global campaign to discredit Norman, basically because Norman 748 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 3: sent texted it. Like like it shows you how like 749 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 3: thin skin and petty these guys can be. But you know, 750 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 3: Rory's kind of a tragic figure in this because he 751 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 3: was an idealist and he put his heart on the 752 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 3: line to try and defend the tour. And then the 753 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 3: money guys came in, the Jimmy Dunns and these cold 754 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 3: blooded boardroom warriors, and they ripped open Rory's chest cavity, 755 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 3: and they tore out his heart and they stomped on 756 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 3: it in soft spikes, and it was hard to see 757 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 3: it happen in real time. And you know, Rory's become 758 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 3: pretty disillusioned by the whole thing, and I think he's 759 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 3: going to pull back from from public advocacy and from 760 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 3: any kind of governance stuff. And maybe that's good for him. 761 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 3: He'll just focus on winning golf tournaments because he got 762 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 3: really sidetracked in this whole kind of war of words. 763 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 2: All right. 764 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,240 Speaker 5: So that was the last name for me because this person, 765 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 5: he's been on my podcast and I know him, and 766 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 5: this is fascinating Jimmy Dunn because for so many different reasons, 767 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 5: him and Rory are really were were really really close. 768 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 5: I don't know if they still are, but they were 769 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,720 Speaker 5: really close, played golf together all the time. So explain 770 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 5: to the audience who Jimmy is. He's a board member 771 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 5: at Augusta, he runs Seminole, and how he was involved. 772 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 2: In all this. 773 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a mythical figure and he really is in 774 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 3: the golf world, reputed to be the first guy to 775 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 3: become a member simultaneously at Augusta, National Pine Valley, Seminole 776 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 3: and Cyprus Point. Those are those are the four leading 777 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 3: clubs in America, and so if you're going to be 778 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 3: a member all of them, Like he's just a beloved 779 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 3: figure in the golf world, and he's a legend in 780 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 3: the business world too. 781 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 2: You know, he's. 782 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 3: He's done everything you can do, and he's made all 783 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 3: the money and he's he's given it all to charity. 784 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 5: And it should also be pointed out that his business 785 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 5: was deeply impacted by nine to eleven. 786 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 3: So I was just going to go there. So yeah, 787 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 3: So Sandler O'Neil, they had an office on like one 788 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 3: hundred and twentieth floor, one of the towers, and I 789 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 3: think of the eighty three employees, like sixty nine died 790 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 3: on nine to eleven, and Jimmy Dunn put all the 791 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 3: kids who lost a parent paid for all their college, 792 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 3: they paid the salaries of every employee was lost for 793 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 3: ten years. Like nine to eleven affected him on a 794 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 3: very fundamental level. And by the way, golf sayed his 795 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 3: life because instead of being in the oppice that day, 796 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:02,879 Speaker 3: he was trying to qualify for the US mid Am 797 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 3: like he was, he was not playing golf, and otherwise 798 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 3: he would have been in that tower too, And so 799 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,919 Speaker 3: he was brought onto the board in November twenty twenty 800 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 3: two to help forge this armistice because he has unique 801 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 3: people's skills and the ability to move in these very 802 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 3: rarefied circles. And he's the guy who salvaged this whole 803 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 3: truce from the tourist perspective, but it came at tremendous 804 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 3: personal cost. Not only is he close friends with Rory, 805 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,320 Speaker 3: Like he got Rory's dad, a former bartender into seminole 806 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 3: like that that's you know, that's for the ruling class. 807 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,359 Speaker 3: That's the interesting thing. They don't have like old bartenders there. 808 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 3: And so for you know, for to have to it 809 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 3: speaks on some level to Jimmy Dunn's credibility, Like he 810 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,320 Speaker 3: has his fiduciary duty as a board member to do 811 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 3: it's best for the tour And they had to cut 812 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 3: this deal even though it was going to come at 813 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 3: tremendous personal cost to him, and he still did it. 814 00:39:55,320 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 3: But because he's been so outspoken about nine to eleven, 815 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 3: it put him in this very delicate position where he 816 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 3: had to defend this deal, all this partnership with the Saudis, 817 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 3: and he went on this golf channel and he kind 818 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:09,280 Speaker 3: of he kind of cracked. 819 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 2: You know. 820 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 3: I think the pressure got to him and he said, 821 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 3: you know, because he was asked about partnering with the 822 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 3: Saudis and he said, these guys are know to do 823 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 3: a nine to eleven, but if I find anyone who did, 824 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 3: I'll kill them myself. And it was just like exploded 825 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 3: out of him. And it tells you how deep these 826 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 3: passions are and the cognitive dissonance of so many people 827 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 3: in this story where they there was so much going 828 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 3: on and it was so they were so conflicted, And 829 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 3: that's why it's such an incredible human story, because it's 830 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,320 Speaker 3: not just about golf. It's about it's about these big themes, 831 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,800 Speaker 3: and you know, Jimmy Dunn got got caught up in 832 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 3: the middle of all of it, as did pretty much 833 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 3: everybody in golf, and this story touched everyone. And to 834 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 3: peel back to the layers and to tell it, you know, 835 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 3: in one place, was an almighty challenge, but it was 836 00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,359 Speaker 3: also like a heck of a lot of fun. 837 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 2: I can't imagine Jimmy wanted to do this. 838 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 5: In fact, I'm guessing he did not want to do this, 839 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 5: but he had in his mind he was saving the 840 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 5: PGA Tour. 841 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 2: Correct yeah, he doesn't listen. 842 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 3: The last thing Jimmy Dunn needs is all this hassle 843 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 3: and all this controversy and get hauled in front of 844 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 3: Congress to testify. Like he could be out there playing 845 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,359 Speaker 3: golf it you know that Cyprus point. That's a lot 846 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 3: more pleasant. 847 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,800 Speaker 2: Jimmy Dun could start his own tour if he wanted to. Exactly. 848 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 3: So it does like he's a principal guy, and that 849 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 3: I think part of why this book is interesting is 850 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:34,439 Speaker 3: because they're there, the protagonist so nuanced, and so there's 851 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 3: so much to unpack with Jimmy Dunn, and I had 852 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 3: fun telling stories about who he is and why he's 853 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 3: so revered and the average golf I never heard of 854 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 3: Jimmy Dun until recently, and so now he's an important 855 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 3: part of the story. Every time someone pops into the 856 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 3: narrative and in a meaningful way, like they get, they 857 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 3: get you get the backstory, so you understand their motivations 858 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 3: and the conflicts and their attention in their lives. And 859 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 3: Jimmy's a fascinating character. 860 00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 2: Check out the book. It's out now. 861 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 5: Live in Die, The Inside Story of the War between 862 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,400 Speaker 5: the PGA Tour and Live golf Allan Chipnuk, the author 863 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 5: kind enough to spend the last I don't know forty 864 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,839 Speaker 5: minutes with us. It's a fascinating story. Great work by 865 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 5: you as always, and we appreciate And by the way, 866 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 5: tell Justin Thomas to get over himself. 867 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 2: Okay, go win a ryder cup or something. 868 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 3: You said it not me but co signed. 869 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 5: Yeah all right, man, Hey, we appreciate it. Good luck 870 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 5: with the book. I'm certain it will do well. It's 871 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 5: a fascinating fucking story man, the PGA tour and live 872 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 5: merging at Jimmy Dunn being at the center of all 873 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 5: of this fascinating stuff. 874 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 2: We appreciate the time, man, thanks for having me. 875 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 3: Guys, I really appreciate it.