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Speaker 1: Hi listeners. Quick note about this episode. About thirty four

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Speaker 1: ish minutes in, there were some technical issues and we

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Speaker 1: had to use some backup audio for a brief moment.

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Speaker 1: So if some of the audio sounds a bit different

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Speaker 1: for a short time, that's why. Otherwise enjoyed the episode.

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Speaker 1: On the beck dodcast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and

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Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef invest

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Speaker 1: start changing it with the beck Del cast. Hey, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: Hey Caitlin, sorry to bother you, but would you like

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Speaker 1: to record a podcast with me today? Right now? No,

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Speaker 1: I have I'm stage four, I can't. I can't record

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Speaker 1: a podcast today. Please click click, oh no, and then

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Speaker 1: a whole lot more movie. Hi, Welcome to the I

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Speaker 1: think that went well. I think are perfect. The thing

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Speaker 1: about our intros is that we're always giving it about

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Speaker 1: It's not my best effort most of the time. Well,

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Speaker 1: I that wasn't a personal attack. Mine are operating on

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Speaker 1: a lower level, I would say. I usually just say

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Speaker 1: the name of the movie and then we start. Look,

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Speaker 1: look we're off to a start. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast.

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Speaker 1: My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante,

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Speaker 1: And this is our show where we analyze movies through

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Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel Test simply as

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Speaker 1: a jumping off point, just trying to get a conversation going. Yes,

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Speaker 1: do we regret naming it this after all these years? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it's unfortunately too late. Okay today today, I'm so excited,

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Speaker 1: uh for the movie we're covering today. A popular request

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Speaker 1: since it came out? Should we say what the Bechtel

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Speaker 1: test is though? First? Or do we not want to

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Speaker 1: do that? I guess let's do it? Can I do it? Please? So?

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Speaker 1: The Bechdel Test is a media metric created by queer

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Speaker 1: cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test. A

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Speaker 1: lot of versions of the test. The one we use

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Speaker 1: requires that two characters of a marginalized gender with names

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Speaker 1: speak to each other about something other than a man

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Speaker 1: for two lines of dialogue. Surprisingly relevant to this movie.

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Speaker 1: But it's our jumping off point for discussion. And what

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Speaker 1: is this movie, Jamie? Today's movie We've been getting requests

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Speaker 1: for basically since it came out four years ago. We're

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Speaker 1: super excited to finally be covering it. It's Sorry to

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Speaker 1: Bother You, Boots Riley, and we have an incredible guest

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Speaker 1: to discuss this movie with. Let's get him in the mix.

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Speaker 1: We really do. He is the host of two weekly podcasts,

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Speaker 1: Into It from Vulture and Vibe Check from Stitcher. It's

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Speaker 1: Sam Sanders. Hi, thank you all for having me. I'm

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Speaker 1: so happy to be Hereanks for coming. Yeah, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be fun. I can tell so much fun. We're fun.

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Speaker 1: We're fun, fun, so fun. Sam. What is your relationship

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Speaker 1: with the movie Sorry to Bother You? You know, it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: So I remember when that movie came out. There was

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Speaker 1: so much buzz about how you needed to watch it

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Speaker 1: because it's his commentary on late stage capitalism, and yes,

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Speaker 1: do it. And I watched it and I remembered it,

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Speaker 1: and then I want to say, who's the director of

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Speaker 1: this film, Boots Riley? Was it him? Yes? So then

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Speaker 1: I was also enamored by the anti Oscars campaign he led.

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Speaker 1: You know, he was shortlisted. There was talk of him

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Speaker 1: getting some Oscars for this film. Critics loved it, like

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Speaker 1: Keith Stanfield was great in it, and then he doesn't

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Speaker 1: get nominations, and he says, I didn't get any for

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Speaker 1: this film because I didn't chase it. I don't play

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Speaker 1: that game and I don't like that. And I like

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Speaker 1: that as well. And then later when he was doing

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Speaker 1: press for some other piece of work he was doing,

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Speaker 1: I got to interview like Keith Stanfield a few years ago,

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Speaker 1: so I loved him because of that. So in general,

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Speaker 1: every time I think of this movie and my experience

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Speaker 1: with it and the actors in the plot and the

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Speaker 1: dialogue around it, I liked it. But then I rewatched

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Speaker 1: it two nights ago through the Bechtel lens and things changed.

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Speaker 1: Thanks changing. Yeah, that tends to happen with this Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And there was like a fair amount of I had

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Speaker 1: to like launch myself backwards in time and remember like

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Speaker 1: there was that was sort of discussed when the movie

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Speaker 1: came out, but it wasn't uh main topic of discussion,

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Speaker 1: which is totally understandable. But yeah, watching this movie with

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Speaker 1: Bechtel goggles on it changes everything. It does change things. Jamie,

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Speaker 1: what about you? What's your relationship? I saw this movie

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Speaker 1: shortly after it came out, and I really really loved it.

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Speaker 1: When it came out, I feel like it's just like,

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Speaker 1: I just love the how this movie looks too, Like

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Speaker 1: every performance is amazing, it's beautiful. I feel like it's

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Speaker 1: a peak bisexual lighting culture kind of yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: which we love. I I love it. I'm clinging to it.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like eighteen is where it was like

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Speaker 1: peak bisexual lighting. Um, that's how you knew something was

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Speaker 1: about to happen. Um. Yeah, I loved I really loved

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Speaker 1: this movie when it came out. Um. I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's one of the better, more fun to watch leftist movies,

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Speaker 1: right up there with Chicken Run. Does a top Chicken Run.

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Speaker 1: Let's not pit them against each other, the idea of

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Speaker 1: Chicken Run as a leftist film. Now that you say it,

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Speaker 1: so you have to watch Chicken Run with leftist goggles.

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Speaker 1: It's so much it's even better. I'm going to do that.

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Speaker 1: I tell you what I'm going to do that. It's

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Speaker 1: the fast. But yeah, this this is like one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite movies at the time. I still really really

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Speaker 1: like it. Um. And I also think for our purposes,

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Speaker 1: there's uh, there's some stuff to discuss that I think

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Speaker 1: I noticed at the time but was very willing to

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Speaker 1: overlook because there's so many elements of this movie that

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Speaker 1: I love, So there's a lot to talk about. And also,

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Speaker 1: I think if nothing else, like, I was not super

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Speaker 1: familiar with Boots Riley as a cultural figure prior to

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Speaker 1: this movie coming out, and I'm very happy I know

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Speaker 1: about him now because he's like he was like raised

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Speaker 1: by like union organizers. Like he's the fucking coolest. I'm

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Speaker 1: excited to talk about it. Yeah, Caitlin, what's your history

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Speaker 1: with this movie? I saw this movie in theaters during

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Speaker 1: I believe the movie past days that would have been

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Speaker 1: to my movie Pass towards the end, Yeah, I believe

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Speaker 1: so movie Pass hashtag never forget and it's coming. It's

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Speaker 1: coming back. Wait at the same like in the same way.

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Speaker 1: It's different. There's a limit, okay, because that's how money works.

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Speaker 1: They forgot that the first time, and I loved that.

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Speaker 1: When you think about it, movie Pass was kind of

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Speaker 1: it was like for the people, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: an indictment of capitalists. It was like pay ten dollars

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Speaker 1: and get thirty movies a month. I don't know much

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Speaker 1: about the business side of what happened there. It was

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Speaker 1: it like for the people or was it just someone

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Speaker 1: was like bad at being a capitalist. I think someone

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Speaker 1: had a really bad business plan and was banking on

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Speaker 1: the fact that like people similar to how yeah, like

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Speaker 1: you know, you like join a gym and you pay

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Speaker 1: a gym membership and they're like, oops, I've been paying

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Speaker 1: this for six months and never went to the gym.

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Speaker 1: I think people were banking on like the difference going

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Speaker 1: to the gym is hard, going to the movies is

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Speaker 1: not exactly. I will buy a gym membership, say I

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Speaker 1: want to go and then not. But if I buy

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Speaker 1: a movie pass that just lets me go to movies,

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Speaker 1: always going to choose to just go to a fucking movie, right,

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Speaker 1: come on, you know what I'm saying. I feel like

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Speaker 1: there was kind of this golden age of seen and

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Speaker 1: then whenever in it got cut off, where so many

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Speaker 1: people have seen every movie just because it was possible.

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Speaker 1: I saw so many movies that I would definitely not

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Speaker 1: have like paid ten dollars even ten I mean, and

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Speaker 1: that's like using fifteen years ago prices. I saw thirteen

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Speaker 1: times on movie pass. Look wait, stop what really? Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's the sickest thing about me. Margaret Robbie was great

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Speaker 1: in that role. She wasn't that great? Look, Sam, You've

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Speaker 1: never been me at my absolute lowest times at the

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Speaker 1: low s Fields three. My current it, Tania is Dune.

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Speaker 1: I put it on at night on the couch as

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Speaker 1: a screen saver while I look at zello listings. It's

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Speaker 1: really pretty and you can just constantly look at it

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Speaker 1: because it's really pretty. You don't care about the plot

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Speaker 1: at all. I mean I don't. I couldn't even sit

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Speaker 1: through it. I just have it on as a screensaver.

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Speaker 1: It's it's a screensaver. It's really good when you're on

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Speaker 1: a second screen or when you're stoned. Wait, excuse me,

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Speaker 1: this is an anti drug podcast. You can't be talking

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Speaker 1: about getting you whispering. This podcast is brought to you

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Speaker 1: by dare D a r U. Screensaver movie is such

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Speaker 1: a perfect description. That's like that is a whole genre,

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Speaker 1: but I've never heard it describe. And I love them all.

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Speaker 1: I love them all. Okay, every Boss Lerman movie, screensaver

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Speaker 1: movie anyways, going oh okay, I would, I mean some

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Speaker 1: of them are also good, but like in terms of

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Speaker 1: screensaver movie, thesa just be so visual and beautiful that

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Speaker 1: you can enjoy it with the volume of to me,

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Speaker 1: boss Lerman movies are too chaotic to be screensavers. I

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Speaker 1: feel like you need like a soothing slow just like

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Speaker 1: not really much happening. Okay, I hear that, although I

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Speaker 1: would watch Romeo plus Juliet on mute. Yeah, it's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It might actually be more palatable that way. Some might say, Yes,

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Speaker 1: some Buzzlerman works could be better unused. That's how I've

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Speaker 1: been doing the new Lord of the Rings series because

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Speaker 1: I know it's pretty. I know that like Lord of

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Speaker 1: the Rings is never I don't know why it's never

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Speaker 1: gonna quite connect for me, but I don't. I'm not

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Speaker 1: mad at it. I like having it around, but I

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Speaker 1: also like pressure not to not watch it. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: just marvel at the discourse because I'm like, I truly

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Speaker 1: do not care. Like a few friends of mine, we're

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Speaker 1: trying to get me into the like black Hobbit discourse

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Speaker 1: last week, and I was like, I don't give a

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Speaker 1: I don't so anyway. Sorry to bother you, Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: sorry about that. Sorry to bother with all that? Oh no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: not at all. I mean I feel like also, our

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Speaker 1: episodes tend to like the tone of our episodes tend

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Speaker 1: to match the tone of whatever movie we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: And this is a very chaotic movie, so chaotic episode,

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Speaker 1: so good good, Yeah, of course. Um. So I saw

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Speaker 1: Sorry to Bother You in theaters. I didn't know much

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Speaker 1: about it except that so like the marketing of the

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Speaker 1: movie was like, Oh, it's about this black character who

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Speaker 1: code switches to perform better at his telemarketing job. That

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Speaker 1: was kind of the only thing I knew about it.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know it was a whole indictment of late

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Speaker 1: stage capitalism, like I and so I went into it

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Speaker 1: kind of unprepared for all the stuff that this movie accomplishes. Um,

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Speaker 1: and I thought it was really cool. Thought, yeah, just like, visually, narratively, thematically,

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Speaker 1: a lot of cool stuff happening. L Keith Stanfield is

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Speaker 1: in my top five celebrity crushes. Also, he's also a

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Speaker 1: really nice guy, is he all? I'm so glad to

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Speaker 1: hear that. Well, if he's listening to this and love you.

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Speaker 1: I interviewed him years ago and just so humble, so

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Speaker 1: down to earth. At one point he was in the

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Speaker 1: interview booth drinking this like charcoal, lemonade, cleans, pure and

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Speaker 1: juice or whatever. Finally, I was like, what the funk

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Speaker 1: is up with your charcoal lemonade? And then he gave

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Speaker 1: me a sip and it was, Oh, he gave you

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Speaker 1: a sip online. I love that. What a generous man.

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Speaker 1: He's great. Love you, la Keith. Anyhow, as you work

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Speaker 1: ahead the things I would sit from m Keith Stanfeld,

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. What I'm saying, second, an erotic,

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Speaker 1: thrilling experience. So it was. It was an enjoyable watch,

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Speaker 1: but I hadn't revisited it post seeing it for the

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Speaker 1: first time until prepping for this episode, and I'm very

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Speaker 1: excited to discuss Yeah, so shall we get into it.

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Speaker 1: I think this is the first movie we've covered in

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Speaker 1: a while where the Bechtel test is actually a relevant

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Speaker 1: point of discussion, and it's like, it's, uh, well, we'll

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Speaker 1: get to the reasons why. But it was like a

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Speaker 1: discussion at the time, and I have so many thoughts. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but first we need to find out what happens in

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Speaker 1: the damn movie. Let's do that. But even before that,

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Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then we'll come back

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Speaker 1: and we're back. Quick question before we start the recap, Yes,

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Speaker 1: do those ear rings hurt to wear. Do you think

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Speaker 1: they seem very heavy? I would say very heavy possibly, yes.

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Speaker 1: Oh the ear rings that Tessa wears in the movie, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a lot. The first time I saw her

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Speaker 1: were the ear rings. It was cute. But by the

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Speaker 1: end of the movie, because they keep changing them out,

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Speaker 1: I'm just like, spare her lobes. For her lobes because

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Speaker 1: you I'm sure it was like multiple takes for every scene.

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Speaker 1: You know for sure, like they yeah, she has to

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Speaker 1: get there should be some sort of rule on like

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Speaker 1: lobe distress. I was concerned for her lobes. I just

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Speaker 1: am rooting for Tessa Thompson to not be in any

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Speaker 1: discomfort in her entire life. Same same, I would second

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Speaker 1: that motion. Yeah. Okay. So the plot of Sorry to

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Speaker 1: Bother You goes as follows. We meet Cassius Green. He

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Speaker 1: goes by cash often. That's like Keith Stanfields, not a

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Speaker 1: metaphor for something green cash Okay, interesting coma cash, I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking already. We meet him in a job interview, and

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Speaker 1: despite having lied on his resume and bringing several trophies

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Speaker 1: to the interview, he gets a job as a telemarketer

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Speaker 1: at a company called regal view, where he will be

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Speaker 1: expected to call as many people as possible and stick

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Speaker 1: to the script. Then we see Cash is at home.

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Speaker 1: He lives in Oakland with his partner, Detroit, played by

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Speaker 1: Tessa Thompson. She's an artist. Cash expresses concerns that he'll

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Speaker 1: die and nothing he did in life will matter. They

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Speaker 1: then see a commercial for Worry Free, which is like

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Speaker 1: a work initiative where employees are guaranteed lifelong work. They

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Speaker 1: are given a place to live, they are provided with meals,

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Speaker 1: and Cash is like, hmm, this is something to think about,

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Speaker 1: especially because he's broke. He drives a shitty car. He

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Speaker 1: owes four months rent to his uncle Surge, who was

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Speaker 1: played by Terry Crews. Yeah, it's kind of the Amazon factory,

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Speaker 1: like on steroids. And you noted, Caitlin. I don't think

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Speaker 1: I noticed this the first time I watched, but it,

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Speaker 1: you know, summer. The people at work Free are addressed

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Speaker 1: like the minions. Yes, had to have been on purpose.

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Speaker 1: The minions were, I mean huge, his boots, Riley a

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Speaker 1: million's head also sidebar. The minions have been big enough

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Speaker 1: for like close to a decade. That's crazy. They were

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Speaker 1: like the most beloved actors of our generation Minions acting

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Speaker 1: geniuses literally agree literally did you see the newest Minions movie?

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Speaker 1: And then I'll stop my promise. We both did. The

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Speaker 1: funeral scene were singing, My god, I have not laughed

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Speaker 1: that much since soul playing, so it's so funny. I

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Speaker 1: was blown away by how much I was laughing. The

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Speaker 1: plane scene also got me so good. A plane scene Peanuts,

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Speaker 1: I love it, I love it. There are students Kevin

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Speaker 1: Stewart and Bob but I did think, I mean, millions

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Speaker 1: have been around since, so wow, I feel like Boots

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Speaker 1: Riley like that was probably an intentional stylistic choice, right,

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Speaker 1: because because the Worry Free Workers, they're wearing like blue overalls,

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Speaker 1: I think a yellow shirt under that, and then like

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Speaker 1: yellow caps almost like a swimming cap kind of thing

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Speaker 1: that just make them look like minions. Kevin vibes such

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Speaker 1: a time Ken for sure, because we talked about this

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Speaker 1: on our Despicable episode, because we covered Despicable me. What's

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Speaker 1: the union situation with the Minions? It changes all the time.

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Speaker 1: In some movies they're paid, In other movies, they don't

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Speaker 1: appear to be paid. They have money because they contribute

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Speaker 1: to Gruze Go fund me to steal the moon. So

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Speaker 1: it's a little complicated. We're not sure Boots Riley is

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Speaker 1: thinking about it harder than um, the writer of Minions movies.

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Speaker 1: Although wait, okay, one last sidebar. We we talked about

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Speaker 1: maybe we mentioned this. I don't know if I knew

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Speaker 1: this the last time we talked about Minions. But Mike

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Speaker 1: White is writing Despicable Me for interesting, So then it's

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Speaker 1: going to have a bunch of plot holes like White

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Speaker 1: Lotus do. I loved White Lotus, but a lot of plots,

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Speaker 1: but there were quite I was just I mean, I

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Speaker 1: know Mike White can make a good kids movie. He

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Speaker 1: wrote school Rock, but I just was like, huh, indeed,

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Speaker 1: and good for him, you know, so worry free Minions aesthetic. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's there. It's clear and present. So Cashus arrives for

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Speaker 1: his first day of work at Regal View. His manager

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Speaker 1: tells him that if he makes a lot of sales

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Speaker 1: as a telemarketer, he could become what's called a power caller,

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Speaker 1: which seems to come with a lot more pay and perks.

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Speaker 1: So cash starts making calls. He always opens with the

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Speaker 1: line you know, sorry to bother you h and everyone

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Speaker 1: hangs up. On him. Then his colleague Langston, played by

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Speaker 1: Danny Glover of Saw fame, of course, his most famous role.

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Speaker 1: We can all agree as just say I wrote Danny

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Speaker 1: Glover parentheses of Saw. No, he wasn't stuff before Saw, Sam,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think that's true. It's he started

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Speaker 1: with Saw his brain go role. People are like, now,

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Speaker 1: this guy, this guy might I mentioned lethal weapon, which

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Speaker 1: would not at all pass the Bechel test, but feminist masterpiece.

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Speaker 1: Lethal weapon doesn't hold a candle to feminist masterpiece. Yes, yes, okay.

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Speaker 1: So Langston tells cash Is to use his quote unquote

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Speaker 1: white voice while he's making calls, and Cashis is skeptical.

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Speaker 1: He then goes to a staff meeting where Cape ber

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Speaker 1: Land is there. Her character is Diana, Diana Debauchery. Such,

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Speaker 1: all the character names in this movie are incredible, and

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Speaker 1: she's so good. She gets like three minutes in the film,

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Speaker 1: but it's a good three minutes. I'm a good it's

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Speaker 1: a solid three minutes. Yes, So she's kind of giving

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Speaker 1: a spiel about you know, oh they're a family, and

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Speaker 1: just like keep making calls and stick to the script.

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Speaker 1: Mrs girl boss y. We also we've met this character

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Speaker 1: before but Salvador is. They're played by Jermaine Fowler. Um,

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Speaker 1: he's cash Is like best friend and also colleague. Also

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Speaker 1: there is Squeeze played by Steven June, and Squeeze approaches

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Speaker 1: cash Is after Cashes had asked like can we get

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Speaker 1: paid more money? Squeeze approaches Cashes and tells him that

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Speaker 1: some of the staff are trying to unionize. And then

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Speaker 1: we see a newscast about protests at Worry Free headquarters

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Speaker 1: because employees there are forced to sign lifelong employment contracts,

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Speaker 1: which people likened to slavery, especially because they're not paid well,

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Speaker 1: they their labors exploited, etcetera. However, the CEO of Worry Free,

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Speaker 1: Steve Lift, played by Army Hammer, denies these claims. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Yike's Army Hammer. I will say, it's like we and

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Speaker 1: we don't need to get into army hammered discourse because

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Speaker 1: we would be here for five hundred days. Um, this

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Speaker 1: would be our five days of summer. Army Hammer like

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Speaker 1: notorious abuser, and this is I feel like the only

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Speaker 1: kind of role that I feel like I can still

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Speaker 1: watch him in. It's like you you can't watch an

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Speaker 1: Army Hammer movie. Even prior to any thing becoming publicly

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Speaker 1: available where you're supposed to empathize with him. This is

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Speaker 1: the least empathetic character in the movie at very least

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Speaker 1: still not still not doesn't feel good to see him,

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Speaker 1: but yes, because he plays like the worst person. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the worst person, and I mean in the world. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: at least uh yeah, a little easier to stomach. Um.

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Speaker 1: So Cash starts using his quote unquote white voice, which

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Speaker 1: is voiced by David Cross. I didn't know that. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: I like David Cross. That's a good like fun, that's

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Speaker 1: a good one guy. The famous people who signed out

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Speaker 1: to do the white voices of black characters with David Cross.

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Speaker 1: And then it's Lily James for Detroit and Patton Oswaltz

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Speaker 1: for for Mr b Mr Mr Mr Beep. Yeah okay.

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Speaker 1: So Cash starts using his white voice at work and

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Speaker 1: starts to make a lot of sales and it seems

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Speaker 1: like he's well on his way to becoming a power caller.

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Speaker 1: And meanwhile, Squeeze Salvador and others at Regal View are

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Speaker 1: organizing and trying to unionize and planning a strike. Then

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Speaker 1: it's the day that the Regal View callers um Squeeze

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Speaker 1: Salvador Langston Detroit who works there now as well as

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Speaker 1: Cash and everyone else. They go on strike. But this

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Speaker 1: is also the day that the managers at Regal View

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Speaker 1: promote Cash and make him a power call, which he

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Speaker 1: cautiously accepts. So then he goes up the private power

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Speaker 1: caller elevator and meets his new boss, Mr Beep and

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Speaker 1: played by in the voice in the Power Caller Elevator

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Speaker 1: is Rosario Dawson. I learned today, same same Mr Beep

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Speaker 1: is played by Omari Hardwick and voiced by Patton Oswald.

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Speaker 1: As we said, um, he tells Cash that Worry Free

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Speaker 1: is their biggest client. Basically, they sell cheap slash slave

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Speaker 1: labor to ceo s so that corporations can make bigger profits.

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Speaker 1: And Cash is conflicted because he wants to be a

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Speaker 1: part of his colleagues movement, but he's also trying to

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Speaker 1: escape poverty and he's trying to help out his uncle's

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Speaker 1: serge who's about to lose his house. So he's conflicted.

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Speaker 1: And on his first day as a power caller, Cash

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Speaker 1: makes the company a ton of money and then he

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Speaker 1: starts to earn a lot more money. He's able to

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Speaker 1: help out his uncle. He moves into a nicer place,

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Speaker 1: really h g TV kind of sterile looking apartment, and

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Speaker 1: Detroit is like, hey, dude, you abandoned your friends, You've

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Speaker 1: sold out. The work you're doing is morally bankrupt. And

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Speaker 1: he's like, well, I'm good at this job and you're

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Speaker 1: reaping the benefits of the money i'm making. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: then she's like, well, if you go to work today

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Speaker 1: and cross that picket line, we're through, which he does.

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Speaker 1: He goes to work, a protester throws a can of

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Speaker 1: soda at his head, which becomes a meme and like

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Speaker 1: kind of makes him Internet famous. It's like the have

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Speaker 1: a Coola and smile bitch meme I had. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: had to also checked. I was like, this was intended

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Speaker 1: as a reverse Kendall Jenner, and um boot Riley is

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Speaker 1: confirmed it was intended as a reverse Kendall Jenner. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I didn't make that connection, but yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Kendall Jenner Pepsi fiasco of twenty seventeen. I think it

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Speaker 1: was um So. One night, Cash goes to Detroit's art show,

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Speaker 1: which has very anti capitalist themes, and she is still

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Speaker 1: upset with Cash and he leaves and goes to worry

401
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Speaker 1: Free CEO Steve Lifts annual party at his house question Mark.

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00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: Steve Lift is very impressed by Cash and all the

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Speaker 1: big sales he has made. Then Cash goes to the

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Speaker 1: bathroom and finds himself in a room full of human

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Speaker 1: slash horse hybrid people equa sapiens. Basically, they have human

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Speaker 1: bodies and the heads of horses. Cash is absolutely freaking out.

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Speaker 1: He's like, what is going on? Steve explains Slash shows

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Speaker 1: a video to Cash that worry Free scientists have been

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Speaker 1: turning humans into these horse people to make them stronger,

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Speaker 1: more obedient, and more productive workers. And Steve wants Cash

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Speaker 1: to become one of these Equi sapiens and work at

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Speaker 1: worry Free for five years, managing the other horse people

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Speaker 1: but pretending to be there. As Steve Lift puts it,

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Speaker 1: Equi Sapien Martin Luther King Jr. And in return, Steve

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Speaker 1: Lift is going to give Cash one hundred million dollars.

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Speaker 1: Smiley face, smile face, and I promise that after five

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Speaker 1: years he'll turn him back from being a horse person.

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Speaker 1: It's right, like that was one of the I mean.

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Speaker 1: And we'll get way more into this during the discussion,

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Speaker 1: but like, I liked that that detail was constantly thrown

421
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: in to like put Cash at ease, and it kind

422
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 1: of like triggered different things in me of like different

423
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: discussions you have when you're starting a job that you're

424
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: like not totally comfortable with it with They're like, well,

425
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,239
Speaker 1: you're not bad, You're just it's just it's temporary, and

426
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: then you can go back to being like who you

427
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: are right now. When here's the thing that we know

428
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: from that movie from life. Some changes cannot be temporary.

429
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: Some changes permanent, right and there's like some ship you

430
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: do that can't be undone. It's like it'sh man, Yeah,

431
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: I wish I could see this movie for the first

432
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: time again because I didn't see well, we're getting to

433
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: it in a second, but the the ending it doesn't

434
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: feel good, but it does feel accurate. So despite the

435
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: huge offer of money, Cash is like, I don't want

436
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: any part of this and he runs out. He's still

437
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: freaking out. He can't find his phone. He also thinks

438
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: that the coke he snorted at Steve's party might actually

439
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: be the like catalyst that turns you into a horse

440
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 1: person horse dust, so he goes to Detroit for help,

441
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: and turns out the Equi Sapiens have Cash's phone and

442
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: they had sent Detroit a video of them being like,

443
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 1: please help us, weren't so much pain, And then you

444
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 1: see Steve Lift come in and threatened to turn them

445
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: into glue. So Cash then uses his fame as the

446
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: Kola and Smile bitch guy to go on TV and

447
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: expose how worry Free is making these horse people, but

448
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: instead of it having negative consequences for worry Free, their

449
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 1: stock drastically increases and the general public does not seem

450
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: to be outraged by anything that's happening. I do like

451
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: how like in the space of like two minutes, this

452
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: movie does what Don't Look Up was like trying to

453
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: do for two hours, and it just like accomplishes it

454
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: very seamlessly and quickly because Cash can't even like make

455
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: his point before he like is covered in ship on television,

456
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: Like they won't even let him get to the point

457
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: before he's been completely humiliated, right exactly. So then Cash

458
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: contexts Squeeze and Salvador to devise another plan, and they

459
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: break in and release the Equi Sapiens, who attack the

460
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: cops who have been beating the ship out of the

461
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: protesters at Regal View throughout the movie, So basically there's

462
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: an equi sapien uprising and then things quiet back down

463
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: and Cash has reconciled with Detroit and Salvador and he

464
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: intends to go back to Regal View as a telemarketer.

465
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: And then the movie ends with Cash starting to turn

466
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: into an equi sapien and then we flashed forward to

467
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: him breaking into Steve Lift's mansion, presumably to kill him. Done. Done,

468
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,239
Speaker 1: That is the movie. Let's take another quick break and

469
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: we will come back to discuss and when you're back,

470
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: all right, where to begin? Yeah, Sam, is there anything

471
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: you you want to kick off with? You know, I

472
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: guess like my biggest takeaway and this was my biggest

473
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: takeaway after being asked to rewatch the film under the

474
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: Bechdel lens. You know. When the film first came out,

475
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: I think a lot of folks were saying, there are

476
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: several things in this movie's favor It's an Oscar worthy film,

477
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: Oscar caliber film with a black cast, made by a

478
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: black creator. We love that this is an Oscar worthy,

479
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: Oscar caliber film that is a critique of capitalism and

480
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: excessive capitalism. We love that, And I feel like those

481
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: were the only messages that I took him when I

482
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: first saw the film. But as soon as you watch

483
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: it with any Bechtel in you do you realize Tessa's

484
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: character is a prop. She's a prop the entire movie,

485
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: and you never really see her have her own life,

486
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: have her own interest, or have anything to say unless

487
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: she's in it to Lakeith's character or his friends, or

488
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: in one scene, these shitty art collectors who literally throw

489
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: sheep's blood on her as she's almost nude. And it's like,

490
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: what I wanted the entire film was to see Tessa

491
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: Thompson talked to her friends about her life and what

492
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: she wanted to talk about, and not have it be

493
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,239
Speaker 1: in service to the mission of the main character. And

494
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: I suppose this is like the fatal flaw of many films,

495
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: but I'm almost mad at myself for not catching it

496
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: the first time or two I watched the movie. But

497
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: as soon as y'all said watch a Bettel style, I

498
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: was like, oh, ship, it's real, it's real. Yeah, it's

499
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: this movie is I feel like the spirit of the

500
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: Betel test is like pretty relevant to this movie. And

501
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: I remember seeing it discussed at the time. Not I

502
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: think that it was, you know, overshadowed by the very

503
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: deserved praise that this movie received. But yeah, Tessa Thompson's

504
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: character is It's so frustrating because it's not like the

505
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: opportunity isn't there, and it's not like giving her character

506
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: more to do, or even like cutting a different minor

507
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: character in order to create the real estate to give

508
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: her more to do. It. It's like the character is there.

509
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: It just doesn't seem like the interest in exploring the

510
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: character was made because she and Cash are under similar circumstances,

511
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: but the movie is mainly interested in how Cash deals

512
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: with it. I feel like the movie is even a

513
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: little more interested in how sal deals with it um

514
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,959
Speaker 1: and it ends up being like I felt like by

515
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: the end of this movie, even though you get moments

516
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: like I like the idea of exploring, like, well, what

517
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: does art accomplish if you are talking about capitalism to capitalists,

518
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: Like that's a really interesting question that is impossible to

519
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,239
Speaker 1: answer in the space of one art. But it just

520
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: felt like she was, Yeah, she was used as a

521
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: tool and you don't know really anything about her outside

522
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: of the fact that she's an artist and she's like

523
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: Keith Stanfield's girlfriend. And then as the movie goes on,

524
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: it almost feels like she's this like symbolic pawn and like, well,

525
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: if she goes with is she going to go with

526
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: Squeeze or is she going to go with Cash? Will

527
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: Cash get his shipped together? Or will she go with

528
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: Mr Union? And it just like, I feel like it

529
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: totally undercuts a really cool character they set up that

530
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: we never get to, like, you're totally right, Sam, she

531
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: doesn't have friends to talk to. There are no women

532
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: present in Cash's life outside of her that we know of,

533
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: and even I mean I was even like hoping for Scraps.

534
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: I think the first time I watched this movie, it

535
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: like registered for me, but I was so blown away

536
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: by what this movie does well that I was like, well,

537
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: I don't know. And then when I watched it the

538
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: second time, it's like we don't even get like some

539
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: sort of big are contrived conversation between her and Kate Berland,

540
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: like they worked together, why can't we have that? And

541
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: they're like politically opposed. Yeah, Kate Berland has the most

542
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: interesting monologues of all the management at the company. The

543
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: Key's character works for. They don't give you any backstory

544
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 1: on her, and it's Kate Berlant who can do it.

545
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: She can read any lines you want to give her.

546
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: She's great. It is. It is wild to me, though,

547
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 1: especially when I look at like the Bechtel of it

548
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: all and the colorism of it all. She's not just

549
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 1: this black woman who was a prop for this guy.

550
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: She's a very light skinned, very traditionally beautiful black woman

551
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: who was a prop not just for this man, but

552
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: a prop for these capitalist art consumers who get to

553
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: throw ship at her. The color politics of it also

554
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: feel weird, especially when you think about, all right, who

555
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 1: was most hurt by the excesses of the late stage capitalism,

556
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: Women in particularly dark color yeah, and black women yeah.

557
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: And so if anything, a film that's a commentary on

558
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: late stage capitalism should be centered around women because they're

559
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: going to bear the brunt of the burden of all

560
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: that bullshit they always do. And there was like a

561
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: fair amount. I mean, I it sucks. I wish that

562
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: this had been kind of a more public discussion. I Caitlin,

563
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 1: were you able to find any example of Boots Riley

564
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 1: addressing this, because he I wasn't able to find a

565
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 1: quote of that, because he does tend to be like,

566
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: he seems like kind of open to like having those discussions.

567
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 1: I just wasn't able to find evidence of this discussion specifically,

568
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I was able to find it.

569
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: Did find him in an interview. I forget which YouTube

570
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: interview it was, but you know, I was kind of

571
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: fooling around on YouTube. Ever heard of it? Oh? And

572
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: the interviewer had a different perspective and said the it, Um,

573
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 1: you know, Tessa Thompson's character is so well developed. How

574
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: like how did you go about developing her? And he said, like, oh,

575
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: I basically wrote myself into that character. Um, I didn't

576
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: like write down direct quotes, but that like paraphrasing is

577
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: is what he said, I mean, which which I do

578
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: definitely see because he's like an artist making making a

579
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: you know, you know, making radical anti capitalist statements. Yeah,

580
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: but in doing that, he's also, like you mentioned Sam,

581
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: like giving her a very like sexualized body centric piece

582
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: of performance art, and he's like, I just it feels

583
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: like a very valid criticism to say that he's like

584
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: not putting black women's experiences like front and center in

585
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 1: this film, and it undercuts what he's trying to say

586
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: with the rest of the movie by making Tessa Thompson

587
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: like a tool versus a character. I maybe it's just

588
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: because the bar for developing women in movies is so low,

589
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: and especially for characters who are like the love interest

590
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: of the male protagonist, who get like usually zero characterization.

591
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 1: I actually felt that Detroit got more characterization than we

592
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: are used to seeing. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's

593
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: like it was a shining example, but I would argue

594
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 1: that we know more about her than we know about

595
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: Salvador or Squeeze. Sure, a lot of what she does

596
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: is very contingent on her relationship with Cash, But the

597
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: fact that we even know that she's an artist and

598
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: we see her do her art and we see her

599
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 1: like at an art show in a scene that doesn't

600
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: need to be in the movie, but it was intentionally

601
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: put there. I was. I was on the fence because

602
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: I do I don't know like all the mechanics that

603
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 1: play in that scene where you're seeing her art, I

604
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 1: feel I I feel like, ultimately, for me, the concept

605
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: of art was better characterized and explored than she herself

606
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: care was, and like knowing that Boots Riley saw himself

607
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: as like was was putting a lot of himself into that,

608
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: that kind of helps clarify it because it's like, it's

609
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 1: not like, you know, being an artist that wants to

610
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: use their body as a part of their art is

611
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: inherently bad. Like I used I do that ship all

612
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: the time. So but it's like, because it's a straight

613
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: man writing a woman's art, like it just I feel

614
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: like it gets so messy. It did feel messy, And

615
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: the thing that really stuck out to me was I

616
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: felt she was framed as kind of like the prize

617
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: to be one back at the end when like you know,

618
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: cash triumphs. And of course there's the very well worn

619
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 1: trope of a male hero, you know, getting the girl

620
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: at the end of the movie as a way to signify, look,

621
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: how awesome he is, look at how much he deserves

622
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: like a woman's body and a woman's love, Like this

623
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,439
Speaker 1: is his reward for the heroic thing he did. That

624
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: felt pretty glaring, and I kept waiting for that to

625
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: be pushed back on in because this movie is so

626
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: self aware about so many issues, but this is just

627
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 1: like not really one of him well, and it felt

628
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: like they were trying to juxtapose almost these parallel mirror

629
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: images of the way capitalism makes you compromise your morals

630
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: through the Keats character and through Tessa's character. But the

631
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 1: whole time we're seeing this complexity with the Key's character

632
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,919
Speaker 1: in this conflict, and like he's really a great guy,

633
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: but he has to make these choices for the money. Ostensibly,

634
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: Tessa Thompson's character is doing the same thing, making these

635
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: artistic choices for the money to support her art, but

636
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: there's never time given to her to be that complex

637
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: and to be that nuanced. She's almost painted in that

638
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: scene where the Sheep's buddished on her as a sellout.

639
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: And even though lakeiths perhaps the bigger sellout in the movie,

640
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: he's never really painted as such. He's always just compromised

641
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 1: and in distress and has to do what he has

642
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 1: to do. That felt weird as well, like there's a

643
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: version of this movie where you let them truly be

644
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: mirror images and they both get equal tire and equal

645
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: space to be conflicted. Yeah, that's because it is like

646
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 1: the question that Detroit's character is exploring is so interesting

647
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,240
Speaker 1: and like one that is clearly and like understandably haunting

648
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: Boots Riley, and so it's like why not give that

649
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: equal precedence. And it's almost more interesting because it's like,

650
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: I know the answer for the Lakeith question. You know,

651
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: capitalism that makes employees slaves is inherently bad. Yes, we

652
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: get that. It's a much harder conversation when you talk

653
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: about a responsibility and artist has two money. A responsibility

654
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: an artist has to sustain ability and keeping their art going.

655
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: That's almost a more interesting question to ponder. And Boots

656
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: Riley just didn't really do it. And that's the true question.

657
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 1: That's more relative. I mean, that's like I think about

658
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: all the time of like we have a feminist podcast

659
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: on I Heart Radio, Like so yeah, got money, right,

660
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,879
Speaker 1: Like you have to make these compromises, yeah, and those

661
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 1: are I mean I listen, I read ad copy now

662
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: and I'm just like, whoa, this is why right? Like

663
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: Loft just reading ad like for what But like that

664
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 1: is the kind of like stomach crawling stuff that I

665
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: feel like Boots Riley is well equipped to do. I

666
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: don't know why, like even outside of the fact that there,

667
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. And then did you

668
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 1: have other writers on this film or was it just

669
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 1: him he's the only credited writer. It was this was

670
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: like a labor of love for him, as as far

671
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: as I could tell, this was something he was working

672
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: on for years and years and years. The full screenplay

673
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 1: was published in McSweeney's back in teen um. He finished

674
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: the first draft in Yeah. Wow. So here's the thing.

675
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,479
Speaker 1: It's funny that you tell me that, because it makes

676
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: me think of a man, a male writer that we

677
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: mentioned before in this chat, Mike White, who did The

678
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: White Lotus Um. I realized the biggest critiques I had

679
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: of that show, and the plot holes that he let

680
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: get through could have probably been answered or solved they're

681
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: spoken to if he had just had some other writers.

682
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times we reward these often

683
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: male writers for having this particular unique vision that they

684
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: hold close to their hearts for a decade or more

685
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: and make art and make work out of. But it's like,

686
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: your work would be better, Mike White, Boots Riley if

687
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: there were women in the room, people not like you

688
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: in the room, people who see the world differently than

689
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: you in the room, and you're still the boss. You

690
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: can preserve your central vision, but everyone could use some

691
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: help in those regards. And I just feel like this

692
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 1: is an example of a male screenwriter having a great

693
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 1: idea but not getting enough notes. Yeah yeah, because it's

694
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: it's and and with this story in particular, Like I

695
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: totally see what you're saying, Caitlin about Like we do

696
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: know more about Detroit than we would know about a

697
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: lot of like quote unquote love interest characters in any movie.

698
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: And it maybe would like bother me less if there

699
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: were other women around who we like gott to look into.

700
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: But because it's like the only woman we get to know,

701
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: and also the only black woman we get to know,

702
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 1: her body is used to kind of half explore a

703
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: topic that the movie doesn't quiet land on an answer to.

704
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 1: And it's a who she gonna pickan, I don't know.

705
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: It's just like, and I totally agree Sambler. It's like

706
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: if you had a woman take a pass way, higher

707
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: likelihood that that would have been caught and expanded on

708
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 1: or like scale back or whatever the solution would have been.

709
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,479
Speaker 1: Definitely I'm wonder and I guess I want to ask,

710
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: how do you all survive as fans of movies, watching

711
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: and reviewing and going back over movies and this with

712
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: this critical lens, do you just give up a lot

713
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: of movies? As we always say, everyone is allowed to

714
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: love whatever they love, whatever they grew up loving. We

715
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: just ask people to be critical of the media they consume.

716
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: You can still love something that you know isn't perfect

717
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: and that has issues. I mean, goodness knows, I love

718
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: a lot of problematic shit still because if you only

719
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: loved things that were absolutely flawless when it comes to

720
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: like intersectional feminist analysis, Chicken Run, Chicken Run, and that

721
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 1: and that in mel Gibson's in that. So you still can't,

722
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 1: you know, love it fully. We have nothing. We have

723
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: no there's not there's nothing. So you know, we we

724
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: do kind of you know, you do kind of have

725
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: to make like compromise is as as far as your

726
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: tastes and the media that you consume. It's just all about,

727
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: you know, having the conversations about the issues in the

728
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: things you love. Yeah, you know, it's it's thinking about

729
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: how different this film might have been if a woman

730
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 1: were helping write it, or anybody other than Boosts were

731
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: helping him write it. The thing that was lost in

732
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: this discussion in the film about the plight of the

733
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: low age worker is that a lot of low wage workers,

734
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,280
Speaker 1: and a lot of low wage workers who are women

735
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 1: who identify as a women. They are often taking care

736
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 1: of somebody else. They are often raising a child or

737
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 1: more by themselves. They are often taking care of an

738
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: ailing older relative by themselves, And the entire equation of

739
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 1: how you work and how you live is affected by

740
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: that reality. And I think the story would have had

741
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: even more depth than Richness if the low wage worker

742
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: at the center of this movie we're also a caregiver,

743
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: We're also a woman like that, Like that's the reality.

744
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: And I just feel like Boots Riley Boot Riley's commentary

745
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: about late capitalism through this movie, it kind of ignores

746
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: who is usually the default low wage worker. It's a

747
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: woman exploited worker, right, and the most vulnerable workers, right,

748
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: especially because like women not only have to deal with,

749
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,879
Speaker 1: you know, their labor being exploited in the workplace, they

750
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 1: also often have to deal with sexism and sexual harassment.

751
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 1: But instead we see in this movie um caper Lance

752
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 1: character is sexually harassing cash. Not to say that doesn't happen,

753
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: but likely it's less likely, although you know, there's a

754
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: conversation to be had about like white people sexualizing black

755
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 1: bodies and you know, black male bodies, and but um,

756
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: I don't even know if the movie is trying to

757
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: make intention on that, right, I wasn't really sure it

758
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: wasn't the Yeah, I wasn't going now far. I wasn't

759
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: sure what the intention was. But yeah, you know, women

760
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 1: have to deal with a lot of extra things usually,

761
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: and I do get like, I think we've had conversations

762
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: like this before where sometimes, oh, I'm actually thinking of,

763
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: what was that Sofia Coppola movie we covered a bajillion years,

764
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: so the Big Guild, the Big Guild, right where she

765
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: was adapting an older movie that had a black character

766
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: in it. But Sofia Coppola said at the time, well,

767
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: that's not my experience, so I just wrote up the character,

768
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 1: which is such an absurd reaction. I will say one

769
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: thing about Sofia Coppola. She is unabashedly white. She doesn't

770
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 1: she is not apologized before I will say, love the

771
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 1: blame ring, love the blame, white chaos, and it's fine.

772
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: I hate that, Oh it's good. But she I mean,

773
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 1: she yes, she is. She is Aspen white, she is

774
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: Boston white. She is white white, but like that was

775
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: and she, I mean in the style you're describing, like

776
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: in the most white woman's style. She was like, well, yes,

777
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: there was originally a black woman in the original movie.

778
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 1: People had a lot of criticism of how she was written.

779
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 1: And I'm not a black woman and no one else

780
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: is writing on this movie, so I just wrote that

781
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 1: character out and you're like, that is well. And this

782
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 1: is a thing with like people is powerful in the

783
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: industry of Sofia Coppola. They can actually budget as many

784
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: writers as they want for their projects, right, Like it's

785
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 1: a choice. It's a choice, Like Boots Riley, you know what,

786
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 1: maybe this was a maybe this was like a total

787
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: indie project. He had no money, enough funding, no help.

788
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: But Sophia, you've got resources, right, yeah, no excuse. And

789
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 1: she's just like choosing to be ignorant and erase people

790
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 1: from her narrative that she doesn't understand or care about.

791
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: Like although it is predicted, like I know what I'm

792
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 1: in for when I watch a Sofia Coppola movie, White Chaos, right,

793
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: Like there's no question marks there truly, So I'm not

794
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: it's not it's not a one to one with that

795
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: situation in Boots Riley. But it does remind me of

796
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 1: like like the critiques you were you were making about

797
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: tours in general earlier, Sam, where it's like, oh, well,

798
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: if I you know, Boots Riley doesn't understand women's experiences,

799
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 1: so he kind of shies away from exploring them in

800
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 1: this movie versus bringing someone else in who could help

801
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: him more fully realize that experience and improve the movie. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah,

802
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 1: Well it's weird because like film inherently a so collaborative.

803
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: You've seen film shoots is dozens of people doing this

804
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 1: ship and then don't even talk about posts, right, Like

805
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 1: everything we see on the screen has had dozens if

806
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 1: not more people involved, and yet so many writers are

807
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: like I can only do this part myself. It's a weird.

808
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's an ego thing most of

809
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 1: the time or and Charlie, it could have been a

810
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: budget thing too, And I know that this was like

811
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,839
Speaker 1: a you know, labor of love for him and three

812
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 1: point two million, it's like a three It was like

813
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: a three million dollar budget. That's a low budget for

814
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 1: a little budget. I mean, I love Boots Riley, like

815
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: I feel like this is the sort of thing where

816
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 1: it's like, I would be really surprised if his next

817
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 1: project came out and the same issues were present. Like,

818
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like unlike Sofia Couple. He seems like

819
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: an artist who actively does want to like grow and

820
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,399
Speaker 1: learn and all this all this ship um, but it did.

821
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 1: It was interesting that it was like, oh, it felt

822
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 1: to me of like, well, I want to have, you know,

823
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: these characters in the movie, but I don't fully understand

824
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: the experience. So it's like I'll just focus on more

825
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: of what I know, and that's more of like l

826
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: Keith Stanfield's experience because Boots Riley also this story was

827
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 1: like pulling from his own life where he used to

828
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: work in telemarketing when he just started making music to

829
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: make ends meet. And so it's like, even though I

830
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 1: guess he's exploring the art side of himself through Tasa

831
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: Thompson's character, the more like direct experience analog um, at

832
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 1: least at the beginning of the movie is the Keith

833
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 1: Stanfield character right. Fun fact, I did tell the marketing

834
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 1: years ago for four days there's no way, and I

835
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,879
Speaker 1: got paid out for four days of training. Oh my god,

836
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: route what were you marketing? I didn't find out WHOA.

837
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 1: I think it was something cable related. Shout out West

838
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: Telemarketing r I P. I think they're dead now. I

839
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: don't know. I have a I have complicated feelings about

840
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: this because I wonder if maybe it's just because the

841
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: movie accomplishes and comments on so much else that I'm like,

842
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit more lenient with it, because I mean,

843
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 1: so many movies that take a very sexist approach to

844
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: characterizing the women also are bad in many other ways.

845
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: But this movie, it has a strong agenda, anti capitalist agenda.

846
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 1: It's very pro union, it's pro working class, it's it's

847
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: pro black in a really beautiful way, for sure. It's

848
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 1: it's you know, commenting on police brutality, it's commenting on

849
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 1: cultural appropriation. It's you know, it's handling a lot of

850
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 1: stuff and it's right, and it's like no movie has

851
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 1: to handle like everything I think like. But I do

852
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: feel like, I don't know, for the for the purposes

853
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: of our movie, does Chicken Run Chicken Run the most

854
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: progressive film of all time? Well, in part preas it's

855
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: probably free from a lot of these constraints of race

856
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 1: and gender, politics. It's chicken because they're chickens. Because they're chickens.

857
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: Although they are gendered, right, they are gendered, They're very gendered.

858
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 1: Refer to our episode on Chicken Run for the dission,

859
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to rewatch the movie and then listen to

860
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 1: the episode. My my evening is set. It's a Chicken

861
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: Run kind of afternoon. Okay, it is one of our

862
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 1: Patreon episodes, so it is behind because but also happy

863
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 1: to contribute. I'm I'm here for it. Did you just

864
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:12,879
Speaker 1: sell our guest on our patreots. I'm speaking. I am

865
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: speaking to the to the everyone who is listening who

866
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,720
Speaker 1: might be interested in the Chicken Run episode, letting them

867
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: know setting expectations. You know, No, I totally agree with you.

868
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: And it's like and we never want to like set

869
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 1: the bar of like every movie needs to tackle every topic.

870
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 1: We complete realization and perfectly. But but I think just

871
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 1: for me, like it's because this movie has such a

872
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: strong progressive agenda and black women are so frequently um

873
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: left out for sure of progressive narratives. It's like worth mentioning. Definitely,

874
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: no doubt about it. I do want to share a

875
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: quote from Tessa Thompson from an interview on on the

876
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,919
Speaker 1: Build series YouTube channel, she was asked why she wanted

877
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: to be in this movie, and she said, quote, I've

878
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 1: always wanted to make a film that hung out in

879
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: the space of magical realism. So many of the films

880
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 1: that I love sort of used that filmically, and for

881
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: whatever reason, there are never any black or brown people

882
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: in those narratives. So I just always assumed that I

883
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,359
Speaker 1: would never get to make a film like that unquote,

884
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 1: which very true most fantasy, sci fi, magical realism, surrealist.

885
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: I mean, we were talking about the current Lord of

886
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 1: the Rings discourse somehow going on at the beginning of

887
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: this episode, like it's ridiculous, right, So you know, happy

888
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 1: for her that she got to be in a movie

889
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 1: like in the genre that she wanted to be in.

890
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, still, but I still wish that they've done

891
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 1: a better job with the character. But also though, if

892
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: you are a black actor or actress in Hollywood, a

893
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,720
Speaker 1: black woman in Hollywood, I'm guessing you're for the work.

894
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 1: It's still a hard landscape. I mean, it's much better

895
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: than it was twenty years ago. But like a lot

896
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 1: of times, you got to just take the job. You

897
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 1: take the job, you know. So I'm never gonna like

898
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: begrudge Tessa for this role in this movie. And I'm

899
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 1: not even going to get that mad at Boots, but

900
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: I am going to say, like learn something from this. Yeah,

901
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 1: And I just feel like he will, like I know

902
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: he will. And the industry has changed. I think a

903
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: lot that would have been okay when that movie was

904
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 1: made isn't okay anymore. Yeah, which which does which is

905
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: heartening because this is only four years ago. So yeah,

906
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 1: like I for listen, like it is a smaller issue

907
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 1: within a movie that's accomplishing a lot, but you know,

908
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 1: worth addressing. I'm glad. I'm glad that we are discussing it. Yeah,

909
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: I just didn't know. I mean, does either of you

910
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 1: know a lot about Boots Riley's life before I knew

911
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: who he was, Like I knew he was a musician,

912
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: but I just didn't know that he grew up in

913
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 1: in like a really really progressive pro union, Like he

914
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 1: was raised by organizers, he like did all this cool ship,

915
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 1: Like he went to Oakland High School and was organizing

916
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: student walkouts when he was like fourteen years old, and

917
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:18,760
Speaker 1: just like his whole life has been defined by these

918
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: causes of pro union, pro black, anti capitalist organization. And

919
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 1: it is like so fucking cool to see that like

920
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 1: realized so clearly in a movie that is so good,

921
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: like it is, it's it's fucking awesome, it's good. Well,

922
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 1: and I mean like he is just part of a

923
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: really large, big, looming legacy of like black people in

924
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 1: the Bay Area, specifically black people in Oakland. They've always

925
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 1: been on that liberation theology. They've always been radicalized fighting

926
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 1: for justice. This is where the Black Panthers are doing

927
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:57,280
Speaker 1: their ship. Like there's a strong legacy there that Boots

928
00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,399
Speaker 1: Riley is a part of. And that's a beautiful thing.

929
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: You know. It's even in spite of the flaws that

930
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: we've talked about in this film, to see this creative,

931
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:09,360
Speaker 1: artistic work that comes out of a long lineage of

932
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 1: black activism in the East Bay. It comes out of that, Like,

933
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 1: that's nice to see that. It's so fucking cool, Like

934
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: Boots really the cool. And it's like how many of

935
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 1: are like like are like big directors are like publicly

936
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 1: identify as communists, Like that's wild, that's so cool. Well,

937
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: and then even to see how we handled the whole

938
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 1: Oscar campaign for it, which was to not it's like

939
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 1: good on you man, like the system get bigger fish

940
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: to fry like it's uh yeah, nothing. But he's making

941
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 1: a show right now. What is the name of the shows?

942
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: He's like, that's his next project. Because I was like,

943
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 1: where where is he? What's he been doing? He's making

944
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: a TV show called I'm a Virgo. That's all I know.

945
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 1: When it comes out as a tourist, I'm a dide.

946
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 1: I can't relate as a Leo. I don't care. But

947
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 1: it's not about me, so I don't care. Yeah, as

948
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: as as a Leo. Virgos are frightening to me, but

949
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: it is. It is Virgo season, and it's a big

950
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 1: year for virgos because Beyonce released a new album publicly

951
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 1: discussing her virgo Yes, oh she she had a seven

952
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: minute song called Virgos Groove on it in her bag

953
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: that said, I do feel like every year Leo season

954
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: is too short. We deserve six months. But whatever, I agree,

955
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: I agree. So shall we talk about what we feel

956
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 1: the movie is accomplishing successfully? Yeah, and it's so much.

957
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: It's so like I feel like this is one of

958
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 1: the more at least like modern movies that really clearly

959
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: addresses pro union issues in a way that is I

960
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: don't don't I don't know what exactly how to phrase this,

961
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 1: but like, I like when movies show you like you

962
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 1: could basically watch this movie and have some sort of

963
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 1: understanding of like this is how a union movement build,

964
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 1: but it doesn't feel like it's bopping you over the

965
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 1: head with it. You see Steven Jan's character like explaining

966
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 1: it basically, like through his actions, and also just because

967
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 1: Cash doesn't know a lot about unionizing, He's just like, yeah,

968
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: this sounds good, but like, what is it? And I

969
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: just like that Over the course of this movie, you

970
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 1: see them like build union power and see like the

971
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 1: upsides of it, and they you know, when they organize

972
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:44,479
Speaker 1: the like phones down moment that is effective for them,

973
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 1: and then like but then also seeing the other side

974
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 1: of it where people are losing their jobs. They start

975
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 1: to use police force to try to um to try

976
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 1: to oppress union workers as the protests get bigger, and

977
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's not a lot of movies that

978
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 1: have an interest in showing the ups and downs of that.

979
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 1: And they win, It's like a hollow victory, but they win.

980
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 1: Kind of like piggybacking off of the police force being used.

981
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 1: I feel like there's like pretty active commentary on cops

982
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: using brutality to protect the ruling class and their property

983
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: rather because they are seeing routinely in the movie beating

984
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 1: the crap out of the protesters on the picket line

985
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 1: for simply exercising their right to protest, and they are

986
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: punished violently for it. So I again, not a lot

987
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:41,400
Speaker 1: of movies are interested in exploring that. And then on

988
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 1: top of that, like there's there's I don't know, revisiting

989
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 1: it for this episode was fun because I kind of

990
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 1: forgot how like nuanced that because it's like the movie

991
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 1: is very very clearly pro union, but the protagonist is

992
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 1: a union scab. Like he's still going to work, he's

993
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 1: still getting promoted up the ladder, and like he ultimately

994
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 1: quote unquote pays a price for it. But I did

995
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: appreciate that it wasn't like like like his predicament was

996
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 1: really clearly contextualized, where it wasn't just like scabs are

997
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 1: the devil, and while you don't as if you agree

998
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 1: with what he's doing, you're like made to understand like

999
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 1: why he's doing it because his uncle is going to

1000
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: lose his house, Like he needs income not just for

1001
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: himself but for his family, and and like making those

1002
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 1: choices under the circumstances are not easy. So it's like

1003
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 1: should he have been a union scab? I think it's

1004
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 1: really easy to say no. But they also very clearly

1005
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 1: set up at least the reason why he starts to

1006
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: do it. I think why he continues to do it

1007
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 1: is like capitalist ship, but the reason he starts is

1008
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 1: clear and in the same way of just like in

1009
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 1: the space of a line um, they contextualize Terry Cruz's

1010
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 1: like role as a lad and lord of it's really like, yeah,

1011
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 1: fuck landlords. Uh, this particular landlord is his uncle and

1012
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,120
Speaker 1: is going to lose his house. And it's like this

1013
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 1: whole Domino line of who is exploiting, who is exploiting who?

1014
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 1: It breaks your brain a little bit, right, And again

1015
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 1: it's it's the movie exploring why people uphold the status

1016
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 1: quo that is capitalism. Often it's for survival reasons, like

1017
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 1: capitalism does force a lot of people to compromise their

1018
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 1: values simply to survive and to like make enough money

1019
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 1: to have a place to live and to feed yourself

1020
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: and feed and take care of your family if you

1021
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 1: have one. And then as far as like once you

1022
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 1: reach that, because Cash is then able to move into

1023
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 1: a nice place and buy an expensive car and all

1024
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 1: this stuff, Um, why does he continue to uphold the

1025
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: status quo? Could be apathy? And then it also like

1026
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 1: I was wondering about that for like the Mr. Beep character,

1027
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: he is a black man, but he's always using his

1028
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 1: white voice. He tells Cash is to always use his

1029
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,439
Speaker 1: white voice. We don't get any context for why he

1030
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 1: is making these choices, but I don't know. It just

1031
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 1: felt like an examination of like how capitalism and gaining

1032
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 1: wealth warps a lot of people's brains and manipulates them

1033
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 1: into making a lot of ethical compromises. Yeah, and and

1034
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 1: and you see that right away when when Cash starts

1035
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: his job where one of the first calls he makes

1036
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 1: is to an elderly woman who he is trying to

1037
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 1: scam because his job to scam her, and she it's like,

1038
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 1: I don't have any money, my husband has stage four

1039
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,240
Speaker 1: cancer and and just like breaks down in tears. And

1040
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: then Cash has to compartmentalize that experience and that you know,

1041
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 1: like he knows, but he has to eat, and he

1042
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 1: had like he's going to get kicked out of his place.

1043
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 1: And it's like you see right away that even when

1044
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: he's not getting paid, he has to morally compromise himself

1045
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 1: in order to you know, in the pursuit of maybe

1046
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 1: getting paid. It's just like it's so it's so fucking

1047
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: bleak and it feels terrible, but it's so well done.

1048
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 1: It is well and like it like for me, Like

1049
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:28,959
Speaker 1: the things that I love about this movie are really lovable. One,

1050
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: it's really fun to look at. It's visually arresting and stunning,

1051
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:38,280
Speaker 1: and it just pops in a way that feels delightful,

1052
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 1: even of the topic area is pretty dark. And then

1053
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 1: besides that, it's a really great showcase of some amazing

1054
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 1: actors who were all doing really great work. You've got

1055
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 1: like Heat Stanfield, Tessa Thompson, Steven Yourn, Kate Berlant, I

1056
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 1: could go on Terry cruises in there. Like, there's a

1057
01:04:56,240 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 1: lot of good people in this movie. Danny Glover. To

1058
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 1: see him pull this cast together and make it all

1059
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 1: work on the budget of three million dollars, that's like commendable.

1060
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 1: So I don't want to dismiss that like every actor

1061
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 1: in this movie is great and they're all doing the work.

1062
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 1: Like Tessa's role is flawed, but she plays the funk

1063
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:18,040
Speaker 1: out of her role for sure. And there and and

1064
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 1: like you're saying earlier, caitl, there's so much going on

1065
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 1: in this movie. The fact that, like the landing is

1066
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 1: stuck on so many issues is like all whole Like

1067
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 1: these amazing performances are happening. It's I mean, this is

1068
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 1: like this, this is one of my favorite movies. It's

1069
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 1: so good. It's so good, and it's like beautiful to

1070
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 1: look at and it makes you feel horrible, right and

1071
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 1: I mean it it takes some pretty wild narrative risks too,

1072
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 1: with like suddenly there's horse people in the movie. I

1073
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 1: remember when that because that gets revealed maybe like two

1074
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 1: thirds of the way through the movie, and I was

1075
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 1: just like, oh, I was not expecting this. I was

1076
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 1: not expecting to see an enormous horse penis in my face.

1077
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: Um and yet really wild yet and yet the other

1078
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess just on the I mean, if

1079
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 1: we were unpacking every single thing this movie is saying

1080
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:09,760
Speaker 1: about capitalism, we would be here for a long time.

1081
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,120
Speaker 1: But just a few things that stuck out to me.

1082
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 1: Outside of um, I mean, I love Squeezes character, not

1083
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,120
Speaker 1: just because Steven jon is also in my top tier

1084
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:26,040
Speaker 1: celebrity crush pyramid, but of course because I really like

1085
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 1: that there is a whole character dedicated to building union

1086
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,360
Speaker 1: power the only thing that let I mean, and I

1087
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 1: totally get why he's like I should be Tessa Thomps's boyfriend,

1088
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 1: like you know, but outside of that, I mean the

1089
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 1: worry free commentary, I feel like it's a really clear

1090
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 1: stab at Amazon warehouses and just factory labor in general

1091
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 1: and all the labor abuses that take place there across

1092
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 1: the world. Like yes, and that's also what I loved

1093
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 1: about this film, Like it was super wrong. The fucking knows,

1094
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 1: you know, right away they're talking about Amazon, and like

1095
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 1: thank you for that, like say it cash is green,

1096
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 1: Yes exactly, I love it, Like it's so good. And

1097
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 1: then Squeeze says something like when you're showing a problem

1098
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:20,200
Speaker 1: but you have no idea how to control it, you

1099
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:22,280
Speaker 1: just get used to the problem, which I feel is

1100
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 1: how a lot of people react to what I was

1101
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: talking about earlier, as far as like people upholding the

1102
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 1: status quo of capitalism you're just like, well, I know

1103
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:36,160
Speaker 1: I'm like a corporate sellout, but I don't know really

1104
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:39,040
Speaker 1: what else to do or like what can me one

1105
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 1: person possibly accomplished to like unravel this institution so that

1106
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:47,280
Speaker 1: you just sort of like get used to it, quote unquote,

1107
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:50,600
Speaker 1: and like he's just like boost rally is like making

1108
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 1: all these kind of like super leftist borderline actually commune

1109
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:58,080
Speaker 1: as talking points of the fact that and through the

1110
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:00,160
Speaker 1: character of Squeeze and also through some of like what

1111
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:04,520
Speaker 1: cash is fox up where I thought like one of

1112
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 1: the most effective parts of the movie was the whole

1113
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:10,439
Speaker 1: like viral culture stuff, which was super on the nose

1114
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 1: as well, but I just thought it was better done

1115
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:15,400
Speaker 1: than I've seen it done almost anywhere else. I feel

1116
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 1: like a lot of movies and TV shows right now

1117
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:21,040
Speaker 1: are trying to like unravel that a little bit. And

1118
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:23,759
Speaker 1: I like the idea that it's like you get Danny

1119
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:28,120
Speaker 1: Glover's perspective on um, I got the ship kicked out

1120
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:31,040
Speaker 1: of me, where you know, like Squeeze is like, oh

1121
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 1: this is so fucking humiliating, this is so depressing, and

1122
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:36,599
Speaker 1: Danny Glover's like this is the best show ever like

1123
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 1: that like just whatever the whole like reality TV culture

1124
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:43,680
Speaker 1: thing of like, well, I feel like I'm getting the

1125
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 1: ship kicked out of me every day. At least I

1126
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:48,599
Speaker 1: don't have it as bad as that guy. And then

1127
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:52,759
Speaker 1: like the super simple like I forgot about it before

1128
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:56,759
Speaker 1: rewatching it. But that moment where the woman who throws

1129
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:00,439
Speaker 1: the can at the Keith's head she becomes a viral

1130
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:05,599
Speaker 1: star and a spokeswoman for the soda company. I forgot

1131
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 1: about that phazing, Like it's so small that, yeah, it's

1132
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 1: like blinking, you'd miss it. But it's like she also

1133
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 1: sells out because I'm sure that soda company offered her

1134
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:22,439
Speaker 1: a huge fucking check to sell out the act she

1135
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 1: took at a union protest and monetize it into being

1136
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 1: a soda mascot. And that how like Cash has to

1137
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 1: like leverage his viral fame, Like would he be able

1138
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 1: to get on TV if he hadn't gotten hit in

1139
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:37,439
Speaker 1: the head with a soda can? Probably not? And then

1140
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:41,120
Speaker 1: when he achieves that, he goes on like Jimmy Fallon

1141
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:44,559
Speaker 1: and tells people to call their congressman, which boots Riley

1142
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 1: clearly thinks it's useless because Squeeze says that in the

1143
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 1: next scene where he's like, you know, people, it makes

1144
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 1: people feel good to call their congress person because they

1145
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:54,400
Speaker 1: feel like they're doing something to address a problem they

1146
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:58,639
Speaker 1: actually have very little power to change, which is like

1147
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:01,479
Speaker 1: I think very like based on what I know about

1148
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:05,479
Speaker 1: Boots Riley, it is just like his his politics, and

1149
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 1: it's all done so like smoothly, and it also like

1150
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:14,120
Speaker 1: looks so cool and that I just yeah, that little undercurrent,

1151
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:16,840
Speaker 1: like towards the end of the movie, I just loved it.

1152
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:20,680
Speaker 1: It's so good. And then when um Cash tries to

1153
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:26,599
Speaker 1: expose worry Free for this like horse people thing they're doing,

1154
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:31,880
Speaker 1: it just drastically spikes the stock of worry Free and

1155
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:34,280
Speaker 1: no one gives a ship. They're like, oh, worry Free

1156
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:37,160
Speaker 1: is even cooler than I thought. On the news, they're

1157
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 1: calling it like scientific innovations from genius Steve Lift, like,

1158
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:46,160
Speaker 1: and it's not until like a violent uprising happens that

1159
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 1: and it doesn't even I don't even know how much

1160
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:52,040
Speaker 1: it actually changes the world because then we just like

1161
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 1: zone in back on Cash and he's just sort of

1162
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:57,759
Speaker 1: like reconciling his personal life at the end of the movie.

1163
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:00,640
Speaker 1: But um and just the idea of like I don't know,

1164
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:03,599
Speaker 1: like it just goes against I guess traditional movie logic,

1165
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:05,919
Speaker 1: not that you're conditioned to believe you're watching a traditional

1166
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:10,400
Speaker 1: movie at all, but like I remember kind of falling

1167
01:11:10,439 --> 01:11:12,400
Speaker 1: for it the first time, where it's like, by the

1168
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:15,240
Speaker 1: end of the movie, Cash has he done a lot

1169
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 1: of legal crimes, Yes, but he's learned his lesson, He's

1170
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 1: learned the error of his ways. He's a union man now,

1171
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 1: he's like back to where he started, but with all

1172
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:28,519
Speaker 1: the knowledge that he's learned over the course of the movie,

1173
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:30,840
Speaker 1: and maybe things are going to be all right. But

1174
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 1: the movie kind of suggests like, well, the reality isn't

1175
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:38,599
Speaker 1: that simple, Like he did learn something, but it's too

1176
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:42,360
Speaker 1: late to go back to the way things were. And

1177
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:46,120
Speaker 1: then another thing that we haven't really touched on yet

1178
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:51,759
Speaker 1: that the movie comments on is code switching and Cash

1179
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:57,519
Speaker 1: having to code switch to make sales and turn more

1180
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:01,799
Speaker 1: profits for the company, which is based on Boots Riley

1181
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 1: again working as a telemarketer, you know, back in the day,

1182
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 1: and finding that he needed to put on a different

1183
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,960
Speaker 1: voice to find success quote unquote at this job. I've

1184
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:16,599
Speaker 1: got to I've got a quote from him here from

1185
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 1: from a Guardian interview from when the movie came out. Yeah,

1186
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 1: speaking to this point, he said, quote, you try to

1187
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:25,160
Speaker 1: obscure the fact that you're black, just on the very

1188
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:27,599
Speaker 1: basic level of trying to make someone feel like you're

1189
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:30,240
Speaker 1: like them, and on the more racist level of someone

1190
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:33,680
Speaker 1: being okay giving you their credit card information. That's what

1191
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:38,000
Speaker 1: I was pulling from. Unquote Yeah, well, and like it

1192
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:40,599
Speaker 1: was nice for me to see it just like made

1193
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:43,480
Speaker 1: so plain and so clear. I think, like in other spaces,

1194
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:46,639
Speaker 1: no one is asking you to coach with but they're

1195
01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:49,080
Speaker 1: expecting it, and there are like gradations of the codes,

1196
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:51,799
Speaker 1: which like I worked in public radio for twelve years

1197
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:54,240
Speaker 1: and no one's ever telling you to sound more white,

1198
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:57,680
Speaker 1: but you get it, and you get who the audience is.

1199
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:02,400
Speaker 1: And so to see code switching as a phenomenon and

1200
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:06,880
Speaker 1: a problem punched up to like the highest level, I

1201
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:08,920
Speaker 1: don't know if I'm refreshing. I thought that part of

1202
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 1: the film was handled perfectly because it's honestly true. It's

1203
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:17,200
Speaker 1: still true. And then in addition to that, so there

1204
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:22,599
Speaker 1: are instances where characters want him to quote unquote act

1205
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 1: more white, and then other cases where they want him

1206
01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 1: to like lean into racist stereotypes Basically that part where

1207
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:35,400
Speaker 1: Steve Lift is when he's forced to wrap, but he's

1208
01:13:35,479 --> 01:13:38,120
Speaker 1: just he makes this improvisational rap song where it's just

1209
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:40,160
Speaker 1: him saying nigga shit over and over and over again.

1210
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:42,760
Speaker 1: This is after he got to that very room where

1211
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:45,680
Speaker 1: he gets to wrap nigga shit by talking white. I mean,

1212
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 1: it is a perfect encapsulation of the conundrum of black

1213
01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:55,320
Speaker 1: success in America. You have to be both very black

1214
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:58,559
Speaker 1: and not at all black to make it, and there's

1215
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:01,280
Speaker 1: always some white person or a white pressure or power

1216
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:03,960
Speaker 1: telling you how to do it. It's weird and like,

1217
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:06,479
Speaker 1: he did get that right, and that's why it's like,

1218
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:09,839
Speaker 1: you know, gosh, I wish he would have gotten gender

1219
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:13,679
Speaker 1: better as well, but he got that really right. And

1220
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 1: that Steve Lift once cash he knows that his worry

1221
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:21,160
Speaker 1: free employees are going to revolt. He's like, yeah, they're

1222
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:23,640
Speaker 1: probably going to revolt, so I need someone on the

1223
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:29,479
Speaker 1: inside to be m okay. Yeah, He's like, and I'll

1224
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:31,679
Speaker 1: give you a hundred million dollars to do it, because

1225
01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:34,920
Speaker 1: you doing that will like I can still spend a

1226
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:37,599
Speaker 1: hundred million dollars on that. That will be chunk change

1227
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:41,599
Speaker 1: compared to the billions he will make exploiting the labor

1228
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:46,719
Speaker 1: of the Equi sapiens, this freaky horse eugenics project. Yeah,

1229
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:50,479
Speaker 1: that whole sequence, Like I mean, and that is the

1230
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:52,800
Speaker 1: movie goes so off the rails, but it's so like

1231
01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:57,719
Speaker 1: it's so good. The sequence where Army Hammer like puts

1232
01:14:57,760 --> 01:15:00,720
Speaker 1: pressure on on Cash to rop which he's like, I

1233
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:03,639
Speaker 1: don't do that, and he's like, well, yes you do,

1234
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:08,200
Speaker 1: because he's racist. And then it's like on Cash to

1235
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:12,280
Speaker 1: empower this room full of white executives to wrap the

1236
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:15,240
Speaker 1: N word along with him, which they gladly do, and

1237
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:19,680
Speaker 1: then he goes, which is like lah. And then in

1238
01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:22,240
Speaker 1: that scene, I just thought it was because like the

1239
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:24,559
Speaker 1: Steve the Steve List character, I feel like it's like,

1240
01:15:25,120 --> 01:15:28,560
Speaker 1: you know, kind of an amalgamation of all these billionaire

1241
01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:31,599
Speaker 1: white tech bros. Where it's like there's a little bit

1242
01:15:31,640 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 1: of Elon Musk in them, there's a little bit of

1243
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:35,320
Speaker 1: Dan Bill's Arian and them. There's like a lot a

1244
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 1: lot of these fucos are like all wrapped into this

1245
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:43,000
Speaker 1: one character. But I thought it was like interesting how

1246
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:46,760
Speaker 1: the character like repeatedly really wants Cash to understand that

1247
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:50,840
Speaker 1: he knows exactly what he's doing, but he's justified in

1248
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: doing it, where he's like, well, I'm not evil, or

1249
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:57,600
Speaker 1: like when Cash discovers the first horse person who like

1250
01:15:58,120 --> 01:16:00,240
Speaker 1: the experiment has gone wrong and they're in a a

1251
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:03,479
Speaker 1: lot of pain and he's afraid. He pisses himself and

1252
01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:08,200
Speaker 1: like he wants to leave. Steve lifts only counterpoint is like, well, no,

1253
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:10,720
Speaker 1: you should have watched this video before, because like, I

1254
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:12,799
Speaker 1: don't want you to think of doing this for no reason.

1255
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:15,920
Speaker 1: Like he's justified doing it to himself, because he's like,

1256
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 1: well it's I have a reason, and like whether the

1257
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:21,160
Speaker 1: reason is good doesn't matter. He just needs people to

1258
01:16:21,240 --> 01:16:25,559
Speaker 1: know that there's a purpose. It's just so it's right.

1259
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 1: It's the mental gymnastics, the you know CEOs have to

1260
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:35,200
Speaker 1: do or who even knows what goes through a CEOs brain.

1261
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 1: There's a scene earlier on where you see an interview

1262
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:41,720
Speaker 1: with Steve Lift where he's responding to the claims that

1263
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:46,519
Speaker 1: worry free employment is basically slavery, and he's like, well,

1264
01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:49,200
Speaker 1: that's not true because people are saying that we make

1265
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:53,559
Speaker 1: the workers sign a lifelong contract under the threat of violence,

1266
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:55,840
Speaker 1: and he's like, we don't do that under the threat

1267
01:16:55,880 --> 01:17:00,479
Speaker 1: of violence, and therefore these claims are ridiculous. And meanwhile

1268
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:03,160
Speaker 1: he's running the company like the fucking Sea Org. You're like,

1269
01:17:03,320 --> 01:17:07,519
Speaker 1: this is so scary. Also, contracts are just so fucking

1270
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 1: bogus period, Like they're bogus. It's funny. Like I've worked

1271
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:14,400
Speaker 1: in media now for twelve years, and the longer I

1272
01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:16,720
Speaker 1: do it, the more you realize a lot of the

1273
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 1: ship they have the talent signing never would never hold

1274
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:21,600
Speaker 1: up in the court of law. They just have you

1275
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:25,120
Speaker 1: sign it. This ship is so like nobody should ever

1276
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:28,800
Speaker 1: sign anything that has anything like a non compete in it.

1277
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:32,040
Speaker 1: That's bullshit. It doesn't like it can't do it. I

1278
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:34,160
Speaker 1: don't know. Sorry, I'm just like sorry to rent here,

1279
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:36,639
Speaker 1: but like that part really spoke to me. It's curious,

1280
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:40,400
Speaker 1: Like the very nature of contracts is fake, right and fake,

1281
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:44,400
Speaker 1: And it's like predicated on the idea that you should

1282
01:17:44,439 --> 01:17:48,160
Speaker 1: be grateful for the opportunity, Like you're like, yeah, don't

1283
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:50,920
Speaker 1: read the fine print. And it's also predicated on the

1284
01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:53,839
Speaker 1: idea of a threat. The threat of a really binding

1285
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:56,200
Speaker 1: contract is that you'll never have enough money to fight

1286
01:17:56,240 --> 01:17:59,240
Speaker 1: this in court. That's a threat. And so they can

1287
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:01,479
Speaker 1: say that to you and know that you know that

1288
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:04,000
Speaker 1: even knowing that, like the stuff in the contract isn't

1289
01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:06,000
Speaker 1: even that quite legal, but they know that you'll never

1290
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:08,240
Speaker 1: have enough money to take him accord on it. Anyways, Sorry,

1291
01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:12,680
Speaker 1: I digress. I know it's it's relevant. I feel like

1292
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:17,000
Speaker 1: we should talk about this stuff more. Yeah, yeah, like

1293
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:19,679
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's like you watch you watch Cash

1294
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:23,439
Speaker 1: make these what he is able to justify. We were

1295
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:25,960
Speaker 1: talking about this a little earlier, but I just again,

1296
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:29,560
Speaker 1: I'm like Boots Riley, like he knows his ship backwards

1297
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:32,160
Speaker 1: and forwards where it's like it's not like I mean,

1298
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:35,360
Speaker 1: I guess that the hundred million dollar quote unquote contract,

1299
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:38,519
Speaker 1: which is a fucking meaningless scrap of paper, is the

1300
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:42,080
Speaker 1: big compromise. But Cash is asked to make these little

1301
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:47,040
Speaker 1: compromises over and over, and it's reassured that, like this

1302
01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:50,320
Speaker 1: is temporary, you are a good person, And that's like

1303
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:53,080
Speaker 1: what Cash responds to. He wants to like build a

1304
01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:57,360
Speaker 1: legacy in the capitalist sense, but he also needs to

1305
01:18:57,400 --> 01:19:00,519
Speaker 1: think that he's a good person and so, which I

1306
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:04,320
Speaker 1: think is like a more relatable struggle than a lot

1307
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:06,679
Speaker 1: of people want to talk about. But it's like even

1308
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:10,080
Speaker 1: that first scene with him and Tessa Thompson's character where

1309
01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:12,920
Speaker 1: he's like, I want to like make some sort of

1310
01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:16,840
Speaker 1: mark on the world, and which is I think, like

1311
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:21,160
Speaker 1: whatever universal feeling. But how do you accomplish that without

1312
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:24,640
Speaker 1: hurting somebody? And so he has to be repeatedly reassured

1313
01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:27,599
Speaker 1: throughout the movie that it's like this is it's just

1314
01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:31,320
Speaker 1: for now, and it's starting in that scene that the

1315
01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:33,880
Speaker 1: scene I feel like, even more so than the Steve

1316
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:37,280
Speaker 1: Left hundred million dollars thing, the first time that he

1317
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:41,719
Speaker 1: makes the big compromise while there's a union action happening

1318
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:44,920
Speaker 1: in the adjacent room, where he starts off like saying

1319
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:47,280
Speaker 1: fuck you, fuck you, and fuck you, and then within

1320
01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:53,679
Speaker 1: two minutes he's completely capitulated, and it's yeah, he's like no, no, no, no,

1321
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 1: we're giving you a promotion. And he's like, well, all right,

1322
01:19:57,160 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 1: then take back my fuck you's and you know what

1323
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:06,240
Speaker 1: he's doing it like it's just a yeah, it's these

1324
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:09,840
Speaker 1: things are very complicated. And also that he he's good

1325
01:20:09,840 --> 01:20:12,280
Speaker 1: at what he does, even though what he's doing is

1326
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:16,559
Speaker 1: like evil, morally bankrupt, but he takes pride in like

1327
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:21,439
Speaker 1: being good in his work, which is a very relatable thing.

1328
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:24,479
Speaker 1: And another question to go back to Detroit for a second,

1329
01:20:24,479 --> 01:20:26,560
Speaker 1: and a question I had about her character that I

1330
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:29,080
Speaker 1: don't know the answer to. I kind of think like

1331
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 1: it would have been another way to look at her character,

1332
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:34,479
Speaker 1: because I don't mean this in a judgmental way, but

1333
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:38,599
Speaker 1: I was curious, like it seems like in the context

1334
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:42,599
Speaker 1: of this movie, she like one day is like, Okay,

1335
01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:46,120
Speaker 1: you've been a union scab for too long and now

1336
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:47,960
Speaker 1: we need to break up. And I was like, what,

1337
01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:52,040
Speaker 1: Like why now? How is she able to justify staying

1338
01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:55,719
Speaker 1: with him for so long? Like all are just questions

1339
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:57,720
Speaker 1: I would have liked to see it explored through the

1340
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:01,120
Speaker 1: story a little more without needing to add in like

1341
01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:06,440
Speaker 1: Squeeze as a an alternate boyfriend in order to accomplish

1342
01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:09,720
Speaker 1: because it's like her politics are very clear. Obviously this

1343
01:21:10,160 --> 01:21:14,280
Speaker 1: is a big problem for them, but as Keith's character

1344
01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:17,160
Speaker 1: points out, she's enjoying the spoils of what he's doing.

1345
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:19,920
Speaker 1: She's living in this nicer apartment. She is like she

1346
01:21:20,120 --> 01:21:22,559
Speaker 1: is partaking and compromised in some way in the way

1347
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:25,120
Speaker 1: that everybody is. I don't know, it's just like another

1348
01:21:25,200 --> 01:21:26,920
Speaker 1: question that it was like that would have been cool

1349
01:21:26,960 --> 01:21:33,360
Speaker 1: to see her explore outside of the context of this relationship. Indeed,

1350
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:38,760
Speaker 1: does anyone have anything else they want to discuss? I

1351
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:41,599
Speaker 1: think I've given you all I want to give. Yeah.

1352
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:46,720
Speaker 1: My last thing is that they credited the horse animation

1353
01:21:46,800 --> 01:21:53,680
Speaker 1: video to Michelle Dongre and that made me laugh, right, yeah, Michelle,

1354
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:58,160
Speaker 1: all right. So as far as the Bechdel test, it

1355
01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:03,920
Speaker 1: does not pass, doesn't. Yeah, women don't interact. I thought

1356
01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:06,240
Speaker 1: we would get a throw away. We did not, not

1357
01:22:06,360 --> 01:22:09,800
Speaker 1: even that. And again it's like, not the be all

1358
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:12,559
Speaker 1: end all. It is a metric that was made as

1359
01:22:12,680 --> 01:22:18,280
Speaker 1: a one off thing, but it does feel relevant here. Yeah,

1360
01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 1: but what is the be all end all media metric

1361
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:28,040
Speaker 1: is the nipple scale? Are perfect flawless metric? Perfect metric

1362
01:22:29,160 --> 01:22:33,200
Speaker 1: in which we rate a movie zero to five nipples

1363
01:22:33,200 --> 01:22:38,599
Speaker 1: based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. And

1364
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:43,920
Speaker 1: for this movie, I mean, it's it's a tricky one

1365
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:48,120
Speaker 1: because again, it is handling a lot of things very well.

1366
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:53,840
Speaker 1: It's it's handling issues surrounding class and race extremely well

1367
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:57,160
Speaker 1: and thoughtfully. As far as how it handles gender, though,

1368
01:22:57,800 --> 01:23:02,559
Speaker 1: as we've discussed, not quite so good. I guess I

1369
01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:05,400
Speaker 1: would because of that probably just split it down the

1370
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:09,759
Speaker 1: middle and give it two point five nipples. I'll give

1371
01:23:10,760 --> 01:23:14,360
Speaker 1: one to Tessa Thompson, I will give one to the

1372
01:23:14,479 --> 01:23:20,320
Speaker 1: Keith Stanfield, my crush, and um, I'll give my half

1373
01:23:20,360 --> 01:23:25,479
Speaker 1: nipple to Boots Riley. Oh maybe. I Yeah. This is

1374
01:23:25,520 --> 01:23:28,640
Speaker 1: this is again a brain breaker because I think of

1375
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:33,080
Speaker 1: all the issues this movie explores effectively, gender is maybe

1376
01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:39,439
Speaker 1: the least effectively explored issue. I'm gonna go three because

1377
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:41,280
Speaker 1: I just think that this movie is doing so much

1378
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:43,519
Speaker 1: right and it's one of my favorites, so I'm also biased.

1379
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying, Caitlin.

1380
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:52,519
Speaker 1: I think that it is like worth discussing that there

1381
01:23:52,640 --> 01:23:57,080
Speaker 1: is only like one main female character and that she

1382
01:23:57,439 --> 01:24:01,600
Speaker 1: is very much used as a UM, I don't know

1383
01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:04,160
Speaker 1: she's she is more than just a girlfriend character. I

1384
01:24:04,200 --> 01:24:06,439
Speaker 1: think that, like, I don't want to be reductive to

1385
01:24:07,320 --> 01:24:10,080
Speaker 1: the character of Detroit, but it's just like very underexplored.

1386
01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:13,400
Speaker 1: We don't have a second woman for her to talk to.

1387
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:17,479
Speaker 1: And because you know, black women's experiences are so under

1388
01:24:17,520 --> 01:24:20,320
Speaker 1: explored in media in general, the fact that this huge

1389
01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:24,040
Speaker 1: leftist movie kind of skirts around giving her an actual

1390
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:29,240
Speaker 1: narrative feels uncool. I don't love it, but I love

1391
01:24:29,320 --> 01:24:33,280
Speaker 1: so much about this movie. It's like the absolute fucking best. Um.

1392
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:37,000
Speaker 1: I mean again, right up there with Chicken Run. And

1393
01:24:37,040 --> 01:24:41,280
Speaker 1: that's a huge compliment coming from me. I'm not going

1394
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:44,439
Speaker 1: to put it there. I'm going to give it. I'm

1395
01:24:44,439 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 1: gonna give it a two and a half. I think,

1396
01:24:46,439 --> 01:24:50,080
Speaker 1: like what I loved about it the first one or

1397
01:24:50,080 --> 01:24:53,639
Speaker 1: two times I watched it was not negated, but put

1398
01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:56,479
Speaker 1: in different focus after I watched it through the Bechdel lens,

1399
01:24:57,280 --> 01:24:59,280
Speaker 1: and I just think that, like, we have to continue

1400
01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:03,960
Speaker 1: to ask in to do better, and so Boots, do better.

1401
01:25:04,040 --> 01:25:06,200
Speaker 1: You've got potential. We love you. Do better two and

1402
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:10,479
Speaker 1: a half. Let's hope fingers crossed that there's a lot

1403
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:13,680
Speaker 1: of good good ship in whatever the Virgo Show is.

1404
01:25:13,840 --> 01:25:19,080
Speaker 1: Don't know. Get a writer's room. That's the writer's room

1405
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:25,280
Speaker 1: room exactly, and make sure it's diverse. Yeah, Sam, thank

1406
01:25:25,320 --> 01:25:30,960
Speaker 1: you so much for being here. It's pleasure. Where can

1407
01:25:31,040 --> 01:25:36,240
Speaker 1: people follow you online? Check out your stuff? Plug away? Yeah?

1408
01:25:36,680 --> 01:25:41,240
Speaker 1: I am at Sam Sanders on both Instagram and Twitter.

1409
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:46,360
Speaker 1: S A M S, A N D E R S.

1410
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:50,600
Speaker 1: And I have two weekly podcasts. I have a podcast

1411
01:25:50,640 --> 01:25:53,800
Speaker 1: with my good friends Say Jones and Zach Stafford. We

1412
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:56,519
Speaker 1: chat about whatever. It's our group chat come to life.

1413
01:25:56,560 --> 01:26:00,320
Speaker 1: That show was called Vibe Check. Episodes drop every win day.

1414
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:03,080
Speaker 1: And then I host a show for Vulture in New

1415
01:26:03,120 --> 01:26:07,480
Speaker 1: York Magazine. It's called Into It. It is Vultures flagship

1416
01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:10,519
Speaker 1: pop culture show all about the pop culture we can't

1417
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:15,440
Speaker 1: stop thinking about. That show publishes every Thursday, So Wednesdays

1418
01:26:15,439 --> 01:26:18,479
Speaker 1: and Thursdays find me talking to you and all other

1419
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:22,920
Speaker 1: times find me at Sam Sanders wherever, and you can

1420
01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:29,320
Speaker 1: follow us on social media at becktel Cast, Twitter, and Instagram.

1421
01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:34,080
Speaker 1: We of course have our Patreon slash Matreon where you

1422
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:37,760
Speaker 1: can find our Chicken Run episode along with over a

1423
01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:42,439
Speaker 1: hundred other bonus episodes, all at patreon dot com slash

1424
01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:46,439
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast, and then you can get merch over at

1425
01:26:46,840 --> 01:26:51,200
Speaker 1: t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. Now, everyone,

1426
01:26:51,960 --> 01:26:55,080
Speaker 1: I gotta I gotta go kill a billionaire because I'm

1427
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:58,839
Speaker 1: a horse, So I gotta get out of here. Same alright,

1428
01:26:58,880 --> 01:26:59,480
Speaker 1: Bye