1 00:00:15,370 --> 00:00:23,810 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I have been preparing a special Halloween episode of 2 00:00:23,890 --> 00:00:29,610 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales, but this week isn't Halloween, so that's not right. 3 00:00:29,770 --> 00:00:32,810 Speaker 1: We don't want to annoy the spirits, so we'll release 4 00:00:32,850 --> 00:00:38,130 Speaker 1: the Cautionary Tales Halloween episode next week. Well, what should 5 00:00:38,130 --> 00:00:40,810 Speaker 1: we do this week? This week I will be dropping 6 00:00:40,850 --> 00:00:46,170 Speaker 1: another of our occasional Cautionary Conversations, an interview with someone 7 00:00:46,210 --> 00:00:49,210 Speaker 1: with a story to tell that I think you might enjoy. 8 00:00:51,210 --> 00:00:55,450 Speaker 1: In June two thousand and eleven, Charlie Veach boarded a 9 00:00:55,490 --> 00:00:59,570 Speaker 1: British Airways flight at London's Heathrow Airport. He was headed 10 00:00:59,610 --> 00:01:04,690 Speaker 1: to New York City, in fact, to Ground Zero. There. 11 00:01:04,730 --> 00:01:08,530 Speaker 1: On September eleventh, two thousand and one, the twin towers 12 00:01:08,570 --> 00:01:13,330 Speaker 1: of the World Trade Center collapsed, killing thousands after being 13 00:01:13,330 --> 00:01:17,970 Speaker 1: struck by two passenger aircraft hijacked by Al Qaeda terrorists. 14 00:01:19,010 --> 00:01:23,450 Speaker 1: That's the official story, anyway, but Charlie didn't believe it. 15 00:01:24,410 --> 00:01:27,970 Speaker 1: Charlie Veach was a truther, a man who didn't believe 16 00:01:28,010 --> 00:01:30,890 Speaker 1: that the World Trade Center collapsed because of a terrorist attack, 17 00:01:31,570 --> 00:01:35,290 Speaker 1: who thought instead that it was a controlled demolition, part 18 00:01:35,330 --> 00:01:39,490 Speaker 1: of a deadly conspiracy. Charlie didn't just believe this, he 19 00:01:39,610 --> 00:01:43,130 Speaker 1: was evangelical about it. He was a leader in the 20 00:01:43,170 --> 00:01:47,170 Speaker 1: truther community, making a good living from his YouTube videos 21 00:01:47,410 --> 00:01:50,250 Speaker 1: in which he explained that jet fuel can't burn hot 22 00:01:50,330 --> 00:01:53,610 Speaker 1: enough to melt steel beams, or that the neat collapse 23 00:01:53,650 --> 00:01:56,930 Speaker 1: of the skyscrapers into their own foundations could only have 24 00:01:57,010 --> 00:02:00,570 Speaker 1: been the result of precision explosives. The nine to eleven 25 00:02:00,650 --> 00:02:05,050 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory was his faith, his social life, and his job. 26 00:02:05,930 --> 00:02:08,730 Speaker 1: Charlie flew to Ground Zero as part of a BBC 27 00:02:08,890 --> 00:02:13,130 Speaker 1: TV series Conspiracy Road Trip. The premise of the show 28 00:02:13,250 --> 00:02:16,770 Speaker 1: was that in each episode, a different tribe of conspiracy 29 00:02:16,770 --> 00:02:20,370 Speaker 1: theorists would travel around in a bus, meeting the eyewitnesses 30 00:02:20,450 --> 00:02:24,850 Speaker 1: and the experts who might challenge their views, and maybe 31 00:02:24,970 --> 00:02:28,770 Speaker 1: with the cameras rolling. When presented with the most authoritative 32 00:02:28,810 --> 00:02:32,810 Speaker 1: facts in the most riveting circumstances, they'd changed their minds. 33 00:02:33,490 --> 00:02:41,250 Speaker 1: Of course, they never did, except once Charlie Vach. After 34 00:02:41,290 --> 00:02:45,170 Speaker 1: listening to all the experts and all the witnesses, went 35 00:02:45,250 --> 00:02:49,450 Speaker 1: home to think, and then after a few days, he 36 00:02:49,570 --> 00:02:53,930 Speaker 1: posted a short video for his fellow truthers. The evidence 37 00:02:53,970 --> 00:02:57,410 Speaker 1: had convinced him he couldn't hold on to the conspiracy 38 00:02:57,450 --> 00:03:01,610 Speaker 1: theory any longer nine to eleven really had simply been 39 00:03:01,810 --> 00:03:07,090 Speaker 1: a terrorist attack that caught the US unawares. Yes, he said, 40 00:03:08,410 --> 00:03:13,410 Speaker 1: I have changed my mind, and that, to his fellow truthers, 41 00:03:14,010 --> 00:03:20,250 Speaker 1: was utterly unforgivable. I'm Tim Harford and you're listening to 42 00:03:20,490 --> 00:03:46,530 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales. This is another one of our Cautionary Conversations. 43 00:03:46,930 --> 00:03:49,650 Speaker 1: As usual, you'll hear a story of something going wrong, 44 00:03:50,170 --> 00:03:52,770 Speaker 1: a peradventure with a lesson we can all learn. But 45 00:03:52,850 --> 00:03:55,370 Speaker 1: I'll be joined by an expert to help tell the 46 00:03:55,410 --> 00:03:59,970 Speaker 1: story and reflect on it. Today I'm joined by David McCraney, 47 00:04:00,290 --> 00:04:03,290 Speaker 1: the host of the hugely influential podcast You Are Not 48 00:04:03,330 --> 00:04:06,730 Speaker 1: So Smart, and the author of several books, including his 49 00:04:06,850 --> 00:04:11,970 Speaker 1: new and brilliant How My Interchange, The Surprising Science of Belief, 50 00:04:12,250 --> 00:04:16,450 Speaker 1: Opinion and Persuasion, which weaves Charlie vach his story together 51 00:04:16,570 --> 00:04:20,570 Speaker 1: with many others, along with the latest research and David's 52 00:04:20,610 --> 00:04:26,130 Speaker 1: own adventures in persuasion and conversation. David McCraney, Welcome to 53 00:04:26,170 --> 00:04:29,010 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales. Wow, thank you so much. This is a 54 00:04:29,010 --> 00:04:31,290 Speaker 1: great honor to be here. A big fan of your work, 55 00:04:31,490 --> 00:04:33,770 Speaker 1: and this is going to be the best. I'm just 56 00:04:33,810 --> 00:04:36,210 Speaker 1: looking forward to hanging out with you and having a conversation. 57 00:04:36,210 --> 00:04:38,450 Speaker 1: So thanks for having me. It is my pleasure. And 58 00:04:38,570 --> 00:04:40,730 Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of You're Not So Smart and 59 00:04:40,850 --> 00:04:43,730 Speaker 1: of the book. And you begin quite early on in 60 00:04:43,770 --> 00:04:46,410 Speaker 1: the book with the story of Charlie Vach. Just tell 61 00:04:46,490 --> 00:04:49,210 Speaker 1: us a little bit about the things that Charlie believed 62 00:04:49,570 --> 00:04:52,930 Speaker 1: before he came into contact with this BBC program and 63 00:04:53,170 --> 00:04:56,170 Speaker 1: what were the conversations that he had that changed his mind. Yeah, 64 00:04:56,370 --> 00:04:59,770 Speaker 1: for him, he had been a curious young man. He 65 00:04:59,810 --> 00:05:03,890 Speaker 1: had moved around a whole life. He had Brazilian heritage 66 00:05:03,930 --> 00:05:06,250 Speaker 1: and his father worked in the oil business, and so 67 00:05:06,290 --> 00:05:08,530 Speaker 1: they moved around from country to country to countries, several 68 00:05:08,570 --> 00:05:10,730 Speaker 1: countries in the at the least, and then back and forth, 69 00:05:10,770 --> 00:05:14,290 Speaker 1: and eventually when they settled in the UK. He had 70 00:05:14,770 --> 00:05:18,810 Speaker 1: sort of a Brazilian lilt to his accent, and he was, 71 00:05:19,210 --> 00:05:21,250 Speaker 1: as he told me, that he just was made fun 72 00:05:21,290 --> 00:05:24,050 Speaker 1: of a lot. When he was in the Middle Eastern countries, 73 00:05:24,130 --> 00:05:27,250 Speaker 1: people there were very prejudice against him and made fun 74 00:05:27,250 --> 00:05:28,450 Speaker 1: of him. And then when he came to the UK, 75 00:05:28,530 --> 00:05:30,570 Speaker 1: people there were prejudiced agast him and made fun of him. 76 00:05:30,610 --> 00:05:33,850 Speaker 1: So then he wanted to do something and he wanted 77 00:05:33,890 --> 00:05:36,770 Speaker 1: to question the world, and so he pursued a philosophy degree, 78 00:05:36,930 --> 00:05:39,010 Speaker 1: and then he eventually ended up in banking. And he 79 00:05:39,050 --> 00:05:41,210 Speaker 1: said that was something that he felt like he had 80 00:05:41,250 --> 00:05:43,450 Speaker 1: gotten into that sort of hamster wheel loop. He just 81 00:05:43,610 --> 00:05:46,650 Speaker 1: gets up, goes to the cubicle, sits there all day, 82 00:05:46,730 --> 00:05:49,290 Speaker 1: does something a machine can do, gets back up, comes home, 83 00:05:49,370 --> 00:05:53,130 Speaker 1: and he just felt very trapped and isolated and not validated, 84 00:05:53,290 --> 00:05:56,810 Speaker 1: and nothing about this philosophical urge that he had to 85 00:05:56,930 --> 00:06:01,210 Speaker 1: question the world was being satisfied. And then after nine 86 00:06:01,210 --> 00:06:03,890 Speaker 1: to eleven he watched a video. I want to say 87 00:06:03,890 --> 00:06:05,570 Speaker 1: it was Loose Change, but I think he watched all 88 00:06:05,570 --> 00:06:07,130 Speaker 1: of them, but I know that one of them in particular, 89 00:06:07,170 --> 00:06:10,290 Speaker 1: he was like, Okay, this is clear conspiracy. And he 90 00:06:10,650 --> 00:06:13,570 Speaker 1: had already been playing around in this space. He would 91 00:06:14,130 --> 00:06:17,850 Speaker 1: take a megaphone and he would run around in London 92 00:06:17,890 --> 00:06:19,570 Speaker 1: in other areas and he would just shout at people 93 00:06:19,570 --> 00:06:22,890 Speaker 1: and tell them they were being controlled, that their lives 94 00:06:22,930 --> 00:06:26,450 Speaker 1: were part of the military industrial complex. He was very 95 00:06:26,490 --> 00:06:30,090 Speaker 1: into Anonymous and all these other organizations that felt like 96 00:06:30,130 --> 00:06:32,690 Speaker 1: there's a there's sort of a benevolent anarchy that I 97 00:06:32,730 --> 00:06:35,850 Speaker 1: want to be part of and he didn't like the 98 00:06:35,890 --> 00:06:38,570 Speaker 1: idea of being stuck in a loop that removed his humanity. 99 00:06:38,570 --> 00:06:40,770 Speaker 1: That was something he reiterated it over and over again, 100 00:06:40,850 --> 00:06:43,570 Speaker 1: that he felt like he wasn't a real human being 101 00:06:43,690 --> 00:06:45,890 Speaker 1: and these were things that helped him feel like he was. 102 00:06:46,290 --> 00:06:50,450 Speaker 1: So when the nine eleven video came along, he felt like, Okay, 103 00:06:50,530 --> 00:06:53,930 Speaker 1: that this is evidence for what I am been talking about, 104 00:06:53,970 --> 00:06:56,850 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about feeling for so long. This really justifies 105 00:06:56,970 --> 00:07:00,050 Speaker 1: my beliefs and attitudes. And that is how he found 106 00:07:00,050 --> 00:07:02,730 Speaker 1: his way into the truth or community, the online community 107 00:07:02,730 --> 00:07:05,570 Speaker 1: of people who share those anxieties and together they talk 108 00:07:05,610 --> 00:07:07,210 Speaker 1: about it all the time and to the point that 109 00:07:07,250 --> 00:07:09,850 Speaker 1: they became a real community to him. So it's really 110 00:07:09,850 --> 00:07:12,770 Speaker 1: interesting the way that you've set the stage there. So 111 00:07:12,850 --> 00:07:16,010 Speaker 1: we haven't even yet talked about specifically what he believed, 112 00:07:16,210 --> 00:07:19,530 Speaker 1: but you've you've phrased it in emotional terms, his emotional journey, 113 00:07:19,610 --> 00:07:22,090 Speaker 1: the kind of person he was, the kind of longing 114 00:07:22,210 --> 00:07:25,450 Speaker 1: he had to believe in his perspectives on the world 115 00:07:25,450 --> 00:07:28,010 Speaker 1: which had not always treated him very well, The idea 116 00:07:28,050 --> 00:07:30,970 Speaker 1: that there was a community out there of like minded people, 117 00:07:31,210 --> 00:07:35,010 Speaker 1: this benevolent anarchy None of this yet is about the 118 00:07:35,050 --> 00:07:37,890 Speaker 1: specifics of the conspiracy theory. It's all about the emotional 119 00:07:37,890 --> 00:07:40,490 Speaker 1: residence of the conspiracy theory, which I think is important 120 00:07:40,490 --> 00:07:44,330 Speaker 1: in itself. Yeah, I wanted to lay the foundation of 121 00:07:44,410 --> 00:07:47,530 Speaker 1: his of how he arrived in the conspiratory community, because 122 00:07:47,930 --> 00:07:50,090 Speaker 1: it's hard to even say it out loudly, even after 123 00:07:50,130 --> 00:07:53,730 Speaker 1: all this research that the conspiracy actually is irrelevant and 124 00:07:53,850 --> 00:07:56,450 Speaker 1: the beliefs are irrelevant, But you don't know that when 125 00:07:56,450 --> 00:07:59,690 Speaker 1: you're in the conspiracy. The anxieties, in the values and 126 00:07:59,730 --> 00:08:02,890 Speaker 1: the emotions that lead a person into a conspiratory community, 127 00:08:03,090 --> 00:08:06,330 Speaker 1: that's what's the motivating factor, that's the drive. But in 128 00:08:06,370 --> 00:08:08,810 Speaker 1: an online ecosystem like we have in the information ecosystem 129 00:08:08,850 --> 00:08:13,250 Speaker 1: like now, you can go online and look for confirmation 130 00:08:13,290 --> 00:08:15,810 Speaker 1: that your anxiety is reasonable and you will find it. Yeah, 131 00:08:15,890 --> 00:08:19,010 Speaker 1: and you'll find it in other people sharing their anxieties. 132 00:08:19,530 --> 00:08:21,810 Speaker 1: And at a previous here it would be very difficult 133 00:08:21,850 --> 00:08:24,810 Speaker 1: for that degty. Further, you might have some meetups, maybe 134 00:08:24,890 --> 00:08:26,970 Speaker 1: you might be able to correspond in some way. You 135 00:08:27,050 --> 00:08:30,770 Speaker 1: might subscribe to people's newsletters or by their books. But 136 00:08:30,930 --> 00:08:33,010 Speaker 1: now there's this thing that can happen where people form 137 00:08:33,050 --> 00:08:35,610 Speaker 1: communities very rapidly, very quickly, and then spend a lot 138 00:08:35,610 --> 00:08:38,330 Speaker 1: of time exchanging ideas with them. So some of the 139 00:08:38,330 --> 00:08:40,010 Speaker 1: researches I spoke to about this, they were like, we 140 00:08:40,370 --> 00:08:43,130 Speaker 1: find our way into these groups for all sorts of reasons, 141 00:08:43,250 --> 00:08:46,330 Speaker 1: but once you're in the group, the anxiety is set 142 00:08:46,370 --> 00:08:49,410 Speaker 1: aside for the desire to be in this community because 143 00:08:49,410 --> 00:08:52,010 Speaker 1: it satisfies this other drive you really weren't aware of, 144 00:08:52,250 --> 00:08:54,930 Speaker 1: maybe that you wanted that validation in community. So that's 145 00:08:55,410 --> 00:08:57,170 Speaker 1: that's true for Charlie at the moment that he gets 146 00:08:57,210 --> 00:08:59,970 Speaker 1: into this, and once you're inside the community, these beliefs 147 00:09:00,010 --> 00:09:02,490 Speaker 1: that you may never have entertained before start becoming part 148 00:09:02,530 --> 00:09:06,450 Speaker 1: of the dynamic. And his beliefs, for instance, were that 149 00:09:06,890 --> 00:09:10,530 Speaker 1: the buildings filled directly into their footprints. He believed that 150 00:09:10,610 --> 00:09:13,770 Speaker 1: the steel beams of the towers the jet fuel couldn't 151 00:09:13,770 --> 00:09:16,010 Speaker 1: have burned hot enough to melt them, so how could 152 00:09:16,010 --> 00:09:19,690 Speaker 1: they have fallen. He had other beliefs that were deeper conspiratorial, 153 00:09:19,730 --> 00:09:22,570 Speaker 1: where that the airplanes may have been remote controlled, there 154 00:09:22,570 --> 00:09:24,930 Speaker 1: may have been dummies on the airplanes, and his fellow 155 00:09:24,970 --> 00:09:28,170 Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists pretty much shared almost all those beliefs, but 156 00:09:28,170 --> 00:09:30,410 Speaker 1: they all knew that they shared one thing in common, 157 00:09:30,450 --> 00:09:34,570 Speaker 1: which was it definitely was a conspiracy. And all those 158 00:09:34,610 --> 00:09:38,050 Speaker 1: people were then brought over by the BBC and they 159 00:09:38,050 --> 00:09:40,530 Speaker 1: were given what you always want to give someone who's 160 00:09:40,890 --> 00:09:43,690 Speaker 1: in a conspiratorial community. The thing we often do online 161 00:09:43,770 --> 00:09:45,370 Speaker 1: is let me dump as many facts as I can 162 00:09:45,410 --> 00:09:47,010 Speaker 1: on this person. Let me just show them. Look at 163 00:09:47,050 --> 00:09:48,970 Speaker 1: this link, Look at this link, look at this link. Well, 164 00:09:48,970 --> 00:09:50,530 Speaker 1: they went all the way in a way that we 165 00:09:50,570 --> 00:09:52,890 Speaker 1: all wish we could do. They took them to ground zero. 166 00:09:53,050 --> 00:09:56,290 Speaker 1: They've had them meet the architects who designed the World 167 00:09:56,330 --> 00:09:59,370 Speaker 1: Trade Center, who told them about how it couldn't resist 168 00:09:59,570 --> 00:10:02,010 Speaker 1: a modern plane. It was designed to resist an impact 169 00:10:02,090 --> 00:10:05,370 Speaker 1: from an over prop driven plane. They even had them 170 00:10:05,370 --> 00:10:09,450 Speaker 1: get into a flight simulator, the kind that commercial airline 171 00:10:09,450 --> 00:10:12,930 Speaker 1: pilots used and had them learn how, yeah, it's tough 172 00:10:13,010 --> 00:10:15,410 Speaker 1: to land one of these, but it's very easy to 173 00:10:15,490 --> 00:10:18,130 Speaker 1: just point it at something big. They had them talked 174 00:10:18,130 --> 00:10:22,290 Speaker 1: to demolition experts who talked to them about what kind 175 00:10:22,290 --> 00:10:25,050 Speaker 1: of explosives would be required for this, and how difficult 176 00:10:25,050 --> 00:10:27,330 Speaker 1: it would be to go into the building, and you 177 00:10:27,330 --> 00:10:30,610 Speaker 1: would have to take these gigantic jackhammera type devices and 178 00:10:30,730 --> 00:10:33,690 Speaker 1: drill into every one of the columns all the way up, 179 00:10:33,730 --> 00:10:36,970 Speaker 1: and you would have to put explosives into those holes 180 00:10:36,970 --> 00:10:38,650 Speaker 1: that you made all the way up. And then they 181 00:10:38,650 --> 00:10:41,250 Speaker 1: went even further and said, okay, what if we also 182 00:10:41,290 --> 00:10:43,290 Speaker 1: took these people and had them meet people who were there, 183 00:10:43,450 --> 00:10:45,650 Speaker 1: meet people who experienced this. So they talked to people 184 00:10:45,690 --> 00:10:48,490 Speaker 1: who are at the Pentagon when it was attacked, who 185 00:10:48,490 --> 00:10:51,690 Speaker 1: were there and helped with the cleanup before first responders 186 00:10:51,690 --> 00:10:54,450 Speaker 1: could get there, people who lost people they knew, people 187 00:10:54,450 --> 00:10:58,290 Speaker 1: who saw that, the corpses of their own coworkers. Then 188 00:10:58,330 --> 00:11:01,290 Speaker 1: they went to Pennsylvania to the crash side of one 189 00:11:01,290 --> 00:11:03,570 Speaker 1: of the planes, and they did everything you could imagine 190 00:11:03,610 --> 00:11:07,290 Speaker 1: to give people a chance to see. Okay, clearly, I 191 00:11:07,290 --> 00:11:11,290 Speaker 1: mean like there's facts and then there's this. And the 192 00:11:11,330 --> 00:11:13,250 Speaker 1: whole premise of this show, because it's like it's a 193 00:11:13,330 --> 00:11:16,930 Speaker 1: reality show, is that when you do all this, everybody goes, yeah, well, 194 00:11:17,330 --> 00:11:19,650 Speaker 1: nice job trying to trick me. I still believe it, 195 00:11:19,650 --> 00:11:21,970 Speaker 1: and that usually is what happens in the show at least. 196 00:11:22,170 --> 00:11:24,890 Speaker 1: But Charlie, he said, the thing that really sensed it 197 00:11:24,930 --> 00:11:28,290 Speaker 1: for him was they met the widows and widowers of 198 00:11:28,330 --> 00:11:31,890 Speaker 1: people who died in the crash. Charlie in particular, hugged 199 00:11:32,050 --> 00:11:34,490 Speaker 1: one of these people when he heard her story. He 200 00:11:34,490 --> 00:11:36,730 Speaker 1: held her while she sobbed, and when he got back 201 00:11:36,770 --> 00:11:39,290 Speaker 1: to the hotel room with the other truthers on the 202 00:11:39,330 --> 00:11:41,690 Speaker 1: trip with him, he was very eager to hear what 203 00:11:41,730 --> 00:11:44,530 Speaker 1: they thought about all of this. They opened the dialogue 204 00:11:44,570 --> 00:11:48,130 Speaker 1: by saying, Wow, those crocodile tears. Huh, what a great 205 00:11:48,170 --> 00:11:52,010 Speaker 1: actress that they hired to trick us. And he told 206 00:11:52,010 --> 00:11:55,370 Speaker 1: me that he thought, privately, you're a group of disgusting 207 00:11:55,450 --> 00:12:00,730 Speaker 1: animals to me, and that was overwhelming. He couldn't believe 208 00:12:00,770 --> 00:12:03,690 Speaker 1: that they had zero empathy for this, and from that 209 00:12:03,730 --> 00:12:06,130 Speaker 1: point forward he started seeing himself a little bit separate 210 00:12:06,170 --> 00:12:10,650 Speaker 1: from the group. It's incredible, but that I think interesting moment. 211 00:12:10,650 --> 00:12:14,610 Speaker 1: This really sets off the whole exploration in the book 212 00:12:14,650 --> 00:12:17,330 Speaker 1: how minds change, because they all came in with the 213 00:12:17,370 --> 00:12:20,050 Speaker 1: same belief, pretty much the same belief. They all saw 214 00:12:20,050 --> 00:12:22,730 Speaker 1: exactly the same thing. So I want to I want 215 00:12:22,770 --> 00:12:24,650 Speaker 1: to come back to Charlie's story because I think that 216 00:12:24,730 --> 00:12:27,250 Speaker 1: this mystery of why he changed his mind and why 217 00:12:27,250 --> 00:12:30,370 Speaker 1: the others didn't, I think is fascinating. But before we 218 00:12:30,450 --> 00:12:32,610 Speaker 1: come back to him. I wanted to ask David about 219 00:12:32,410 --> 00:12:34,770 Speaker 1: your own views. You seem to have gone on a 220 00:12:34,770 --> 00:12:36,810 Speaker 1: bit of a journey. At the beginning of the book. 221 00:12:37,250 --> 00:12:41,050 Speaker 1: You're pretty much a fatalist like the BBC TV crew. 222 00:12:41,490 --> 00:12:45,290 Speaker 1: You're thinking, well, when you show the conspiracy theorists the facts, 223 00:12:45,410 --> 00:12:47,970 Speaker 1: of course they don't change their mind. Whoever changes their 224 00:12:47,970 --> 00:12:51,010 Speaker 1: mind about anything. But then you make the point that actually, 225 00:12:51,050 --> 00:12:52,970 Speaker 1: people do change their minds all the time. We managed 226 00:12:52,970 --> 00:12:55,050 Speaker 1: to do quite a good job of ignoring it when 227 00:12:55,050 --> 00:12:58,450 Speaker 1: it happens. Yeah, I mean, I had this podcast, You're 228 00:12:58,490 --> 00:13:00,810 Speaker 1: Not So Smart, I have the book You're Not So 229 00:13:00,890 --> 00:13:03,850 Speaker 1: Smart and a follow up, and I just become my 230 00:13:03,930 --> 00:13:07,010 Speaker 1: beat as a journalist. Was talking to people about motivated reasoning, 231 00:13:07,090 --> 00:13:10,690 Speaker 1: which is just all the psychological and neurological mechanisms that 232 00:13:11,090 --> 00:13:16,530 Speaker 1: influences us. We're very motivated to justify and rationalize and 233 00:13:16,610 --> 00:13:19,330 Speaker 1: explain ourselves in a way that always seems to suggest 234 00:13:19,410 --> 00:13:22,290 Speaker 1: we were right all along. And yeah, I was very cynical. 235 00:13:22,370 --> 00:13:27,770 Speaker 1: I had this pessimism, and I was not giving prescriptive advice. 236 00:13:27,810 --> 00:13:29,370 Speaker 1: I was just describing, here's the thing in the world, 237 00:13:29,370 --> 00:13:31,690 Speaker 1: and you know, lest not to engage in it. And 238 00:13:31,730 --> 00:13:35,170 Speaker 1: then around the same time period, the norms and attitudes 239 00:13:35,330 --> 00:13:38,090 Speaker 1: and then the law about same sex marriage in the 240 00:13:38,170 --> 00:13:42,690 Speaker 1: United States and LGBTQ issues in general had changed so rapidly, 241 00:13:43,050 --> 00:13:45,570 Speaker 1: and I had this thought experiment pop in my mind. 242 00:13:45,610 --> 00:13:47,250 Speaker 1: I was like, what if you took all those people 243 00:13:47,410 --> 00:13:48,930 Speaker 1: and you put them in a time machine and it's 244 00:13:49,050 --> 00:13:52,570 Speaker 1: the back ten years. Would they argue with themselves? Would 245 00:13:52,570 --> 00:13:55,290 Speaker 1: they look at each other and find it impossible to 246 00:13:55,330 --> 00:13:58,410 Speaker 1: convince each other of something that in the future that 247 00:13:58,450 --> 00:14:01,570 Speaker 1: same person will then absolutely accept. I wanted to understand 248 00:14:02,050 --> 00:14:04,250 Speaker 1: what must have happened in those people's brains, and I 249 00:14:04,250 --> 00:14:06,330 Speaker 1: felt like to understand it from like the bird's eye view. 250 00:14:06,330 --> 00:14:08,130 Speaker 1: I could go all the way down into neurons and 251 00:14:08,130 --> 00:14:11,490 Speaker 1: work my way up, and I became obsessed. It felt 252 00:14:11,530 --> 00:14:14,010 Speaker 1: like it was an opportunity to give myself some come uppance, 253 00:14:14,170 --> 00:14:16,290 Speaker 1: and I was eager to do so because I didn't 254 00:14:16,290 --> 00:14:19,330 Speaker 1: want to hold this cynical attitude. So I had motivated reasoning. 255 00:14:19,450 --> 00:14:22,730 Speaker 1: I was motivated by something that I didn't even quite understand, 256 00:14:22,770 --> 00:14:25,010 Speaker 1: and that's what sent me off on this super obsessive 257 00:14:25,050 --> 00:14:27,250 Speaker 1: journey and all over the world trying to meet experts 258 00:14:27,250 --> 00:14:29,090 Speaker 1: and people who change minds, people who have had their 259 00:14:29,090 --> 00:14:30,970 Speaker 1: minds changed and drafted ways and so on. I mean, 260 00:14:31,290 --> 00:14:33,850 Speaker 1: not everyone is as knowledgeable about the subject as you are, David, 261 00:14:33,850 --> 00:14:37,330 Speaker 1: and not everyone is as obsessed with the problem of 262 00:14:37,410 --> 00:14:40,210 Speaker 1: changing minds as you are, but a lot of people 263 00:14:40,210 --> 00:14:43,610 Speaker 1: are kind of We all like to think of ourselves 264 00:14:43,610 --> 00:14:46,250 Speaker 1: as people who should be able to change other people's minds. 265 00:14:46,410 --> 00:14:48,570 Speaker 1: I was quite interested. I published my own book, The 266 00:14:48,690 --> 00:14:51,290 Speaker 1: Data Detective, last year, and that's a book about how 267 00:14:51,330 --> 00:14:54,010 Speaker 1: to think clearly about the world, and about how numbers 268 00:14:54,090 --> 00:14:56,290 Speaker 1: might help you think clearly about the world. And I 269 00:14:56,330 --> 00:14:58,810 Speaker 1: was quite interested by the response because lots of people 270 00:14:59,290 --> 00:15:01,610 Speaker 1: came to me and said, well, yeah, I enjoyed the book. 271 00:15:01,970 --> 00:15:04,890 Speaker 1: I've got this friend and he or she, well, he's 272 00:15:04,930 --> 00:15:07,690 Speaker 1: this dumb thing, and I could you tell me how 273 00:15:07,730 --> 00:15:11,010 Speaker 1: to use numbers to set them straight about this stupid 274 00:15:11,050 --> 00:15:13,410 Speaker 1: thing that they believe? And my book could never The 275 00:15:13,450 --> 00:15:15,370 Speaker 1: way I thought about it is, if you can set 276 00:15:15,410 --> 00:15:19,490 Speaker 1: your own thinking straight, isn't that enough? So do we 277 00:15:19,570 --> 00:15:23,970 Speaker 1: think too much about trying to help other people see clearly, 278 00:15:23,970 --> 00:15:26,410 Speaker 1: about trying to change other people's views, and not enough 279 00:15:26,450 --> 00:15:30,490 Speaker 1: about seeing clearly ourselves. It's so nuanced. I think that. 280 00:15:30,570 --> 00:15:32,770 Speaker 1: It reminds me of something Tom Stafford told me the 281 00:15:32,850 --> 00:15:38,130 Speaker 1: great cognitive psychologists. He said, germs were always a problem 282 00:15:38,690 --> 00:15:41,410 Speaker 1: for human beings, and then when we built cities, they 283 00:15:41,410 --> 00:15:44,970 Speaker 1: became this existential crisis because well, put a lot of 284 00:15:45,010 --> 00:15:47,490 Speaker 1: people together in a big group, germs become a major problem. 285 00:15:47,530 --> 00:15:50,490 Speaker 1: You of plagues, outbreaks, and so on. So we developed 286 00:15:50,690 --> 00:15:53,890 Speaker 1: sanitation at the level of the community, and then we 287 00:15:54,090 --> 00:15:57,850 Speaker 1: developed best practices for individuals, which would be washing your 288 00:15:57,850 --> 00:16:02,530 Speaker 1: hands and stuff, boiling your water, he said, for misinformation 289 00:16:03,130 --> 00:16:07,170 Speaker 1: and the inability to develop where's the good source of 290 00:16:07,170 --> 00:16:10,650 Speaker 1: the information? All these problems with information have always been 291 00:16:10,810 --> 00:16:12,970 Speaker 1: the problem for human beings. But then you get the Internet, 292 00:16:13,130 --> 00:16:17,450 Speaker 1: which is the informational equivalent of gigantic cities, and now 293 00:16:17,450 --> 00:16:20,570 Speaker 1: it's an exidential crisis. And so we'll have to develop 294 00:16:20,970 --> 00:16:24,810 Speaker 1: the generational equivalent of both sanitation at the context level, 295 00:16:24,810 --> 00:16:27,410 Speaker 1: at the platform level, and we have to develop best 296 00:16:27,450 --> 00:16:30,890 Speaker 1: practices as individuals. We have to develop the generational equivalent 297 00:16:31,050 --> 00:16:33,410 Speaker 1: of washing your hands when it comes to misinformation. This 298 00:16:33,450 --> 00:16:35,890 Speaker 1: is what Tom Stafford told me. So they answer to 299 00:16:35,890 --> 00:16:39,130 Speaker 1: your question is it's both things have to happen simultaneously 300 00:16:39,210 --> 00:16:42,130 Speaker 1: because we all do need to become better critical thinkers. 301 00:16:42,210 --> 00:16:45,530 Speaker 1: That's true. We all do need to become more amenable 302 00:16:45,570 --> 00:16:48,090 Speaker 1: to changing our own minds, more amenable to being wrong, 303 00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:51,490 Speaker 1: more likely to consider things a hypothesis and not a conclusion, 304 00:16:51,490 --> 00:16:54,010 Speaker 1: and all the things that go into that. But the 305 00:16:54,090 --> 00:16:56,810 Speaker 1: context in which we discuss these issues are going to 306 00:16:56,850 --> 00:17:00,010 Speaker 1: also have to change, because if we're good critical thinkers, 307 00:17:00,010 --> 00:17:02,410 Speaker 1: we're going to come across things that other people aren't. 308 00:17:02,610 --> 00:17:04,410 Speaker 1: We're going to have experiences they're not going to have. 309 00:17:04,490 --> 00:17:06,330 Speaker 1: We're going to have expertise they don't have. We're just 310 00:17:06,330 --> 00:17:07,930 Speaker 1: going to be in worlds that they don't live in. 311 00:17:08,530 --> 00:17:11,210 Speaker 1: If we're all great critical thinkers, we're going to discover 312 00:17:11,330 --> 00:17:13,690 Speaker 1: things that, oh, this might not be true. We're going 313 00:17:13,730 --> 00:17:15,930 Speaker 1: to see that certain attitudes might be harmful. We're going 314 00:17:16,010 --> 00:17:19,210 Speaker 1: to see that maybe certain value structures need to be rearranged. 315 00:17:19,730 --> 00:17:21,930 Speaker 1: Each person who's doing their due diligence is going to 316 00:17:21,930 --> 00:17:24,090 Speaker 1: become aware of things that might help everybody else to 317 00:17:24,130 --> 00:17:26,330 Speaker 1: understand better. And if you don't have a way to 318 00:17:26,970 --> 00:17:28,970 Speaker 1: actually do that, if you don't have a way to 319 00:17:29,010 --> 00:17:32,810 Speaker 1: do that doesn't create massive resistance and pushback, then it 320 00:17:33,010 --> 00:17:36,610 Speaker 1: will remain one sided. The current thinking is the natural 321 00:17:36,610 --> 00:17:39,930 Speaker 1: selection did a great job of creating psychological mechanisms within 322 00:17:40,050 --> 00:17:43,930 Speaker 1: us that are set up to have that kind of discussion. 323 00:17:44,250 --> 00:17:46,810 Speaker 1: You ever go to a movie with someone and you 324 00:17:46,890 --> 00:17:49,050 Speaker 1: love it and you can't wait to tell them about it, 325 00:17:49,050 --> 00:17:51,010 Speaker 1: and then when you get out of the movie, they say, boy, 326 00:17:51,050 --> 00:17:54,570 Speaker 1: I hated that. Yeah, but you don't say I can 327 00:17:54,610 --> 00:17:56,570 Speaker 1: never talk to you again. I reject you forever. I 328 00:17:56,610 --> 00:17:58,970 Speaker 1: don't trust you like no. You You you talk about 329 00:17:58,970 --> 00:18:01,890 Speaker 1: it and you have a great conversation. I mean, conversations 330 00:18:01,930 --> 00:18:04,650 Speaker 1: about movies, whether they suck or not. The best kinds 331 00:18:04,690 --> 00:18:07,330 Speaker 1: of conversations because they're so interesting. But the stakes are low. 332 00:18:07,410 --> 00:18:09,730 Speaker 1: It's a friendly chat. So why is it so hard 333 00:18:09,730 --> 00:18:11,730 Speaker 1: to do? Well, there's there are real reasons why this 334 00:18:11,810 --> 00:18:13,690 Speaker 1: is hard to do. One reason is that we're not 335 00:18:13,810 --> 00:18:16,410 Speaker 1: very good at it. And another reason is that there 336 00:18:16,530 --> 00:18:21,010 Speaker 1: is a massive amount of identity defense going on. There's 337 00:18:21,010 --> 00:18:23,810 Speaker 1: a massive amount of reputation management, and in a case 338 00:18:23,850 --> 00:18:25,890 Speaker 1: like talking about a movie, that's probably not going to 339 00:18:26,410 --> 00:18:28,970 Speaker 1: be that way. But let's pretend you're two movie critics 340 00:18:28,970 --> 00:18:31,330 Speaker 1: to go see a movie to work for two different organizations, 341 00:18:31,370 --> 00:18:33,770 Speaker 1: and well, let's say the director of the movie, and 342 00:18:33,890 --> 00:18:37,410 Speaker 1: somebody is just watched it with you, was just some 343 00:18:37,810 --> 00:18:41,090 Speaker 1: random fan, and then they come out and you're like, 344 00:18:41,130 --> 00:18:42,490 Speaker 1: what do you think? And they're like, I think is 345 00:18:42,530 --> 00:18:45,810 Speaker 1: the worst movie I've ever seen. Different conversation. Most likely, right, Yeah, 346 00:18:45,890 --> 00:18:48,570 Speaker 1: there's a reason for all those things. And oddly enough, 347 00:18:48,690 --> 00:18:51,170 Speaker 1: it can seem like everything is as just as neutral 348 00:18:51,210 --> 00:18:53,530 Speaker 1: as everything else. But clearly not clearly, there are other 349 00:18:53,570 --> 00:18:56,130 Speaker 1: factors that motivate us when we get into these dynamics. 350 00:18:56,690 --> 00:19:00,490 Speaker 1: So the celebrated nine to eleven conspiracy theorists Charlie Veach 351 00:19:00,690 --> 00:19:03,730 Speaker 1: had indeed changed his mind and no longer thought that 352 00:19:03,770 --> 00:19:06,690 Speaker 1: the destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job. 353 00:19:07,410 --> 00:19:11,530 Speaker 1: The evidence of witnesses x Berts, the most importantly widows, 354 00:19:11,850 --> 00:19:15,570 Speaker 1: had convinced him. It had been a personal journey of discovery, 355 00:19:15,850 --> 00:19:19,170 Speaker 1: but for the nine eleven truther community, it was a 356 00:19:19,250 --> 00:19:25,450 Speaker 1: betrayal and one that demanded punishment. Cautionary tales will be 357 00:19:25,490 --> 00:19:40,250 Speaker 1: back in a moment. Influential YouTuber Charlie Veach had changed 358 00:19:40,290 --> 00:19:43,450 Speaker 1: his mind about nine to eleven. The Twin Towers hadn't 359 00:19:43,490 --> 00:19:47,090 Speaker 1: been toppled by demolition charges planted by the government, after all, 360 00:19:47,650 --> 00:19:51,250 Speaker 1: keen to share his new views, Charlie uploaded a video 361 00:19:51,370 --> 00:19:55,930 Speaker 1: for his fellow conspiracy theorists, if you're presented with new evidence, 362 00:19:56,170 --> 00:19:59,650 Speaker 1: he told them, take it on. But as my guest 363 00:19:59,850 --> 00:20:04,050 Speaker 1: David McCraney explains, the reaction of the nine eleven truthers 364 00:20:04,890 --> 00:20:07,530 Speaker 1: was far from measured as I see in the book. 365 00:20:07,530 --> 00:20:11,130 Speaker 1: He was swift and it was brutal. At first. There 366 00:20:11,130 --> 00:20:14,410 Speaker 1: were a lot of these just comments and quickly put 367 00:20:14,450 --> 00:20:18,450 Speaker 1: together videos wondering what happened, Who got to him? That 368 00:20:18,530 --> 00:20:21,010 Speaker 1: was the initial response, like there was this sense that 369 00:20:21,050 --> 00:20:22,770 Speaker 1: maybe has somebody put a gun to his head, or 370 00:20:22,770 --> 00:20:26,530 Speaker 1: that somebody was threatening him, And then that started to transition. Indeed, 371 00:20:26,610 --> 00:20:29,370 Speaker 1: but that he couldn't possibly have just looked at the 372 00:20:29,370 --> 00:20:31,850 Speaker 1: evidence and changed his mind, Like that is inconceivable, couldn't 373 00:20:31,850 --> 00:20:33,730 Speaker 1: possibly done it. There were comments that were like, that's 374 00:20:33,770 --> 00:20:36,450 Speaker 1: like exchanging the belief in gravity for something, you know. 375 00:20:36,610 --> 00:20:38,650 Speaker 1: Else that there were there are comments that were like 376 00:20:38,850 --> 00:20:42,850 Speaker 1: someone must be coercing him, someone must be threatening him. 377 00:20:42,890 --> 00:20:45,650 Speaker 1: Then it went to oh, wait, maybe he was a 378 00:20:45,690 --> 00:20:48,970 Speaker 1: double agent all this time, And then you would think, okay, 379 00:20:49,410 --> 00:20:51,330 Speaker 1: maybe some of this seems like what I would expect, 380 00:20:51,770 --> 00:20:54,450 Speaker 1: But it goes further and further. They start trying to 381 00:20:54,450 --> 00:20:57,610 Speaker 1: reach out to his family. They started, they go so 382 00:20:57,650 --> 00:21:02,170 Speaker 1: far as they find his sister's Facebook page. She didn't 383 00:21:02,170 --> 00:21:05,010 Speaker 1: have a she had just not made it private. They 384 00:21:05,010 --> 00:21:07,850 Speaker 1: found pictures of his niece and nephew. They took those 385 00:21:07,890 --> 00:21:11,370 Speaker 1: pictures of his niece and nephew, they photoshopped their faces 386 00:21:11,410 --> 00:21:14,410 Speaker 1: onto child pornography, and then they sent that to his mother, 387 00:21:15,010 --> 00:21:18,570 Speaker 1: and his mother, not being very Internet savvy, was devastated 388 00:21:18,610 --> 00:21:20,410 Speaker 1: and he had to explain what was going on, which 389 00:21:20,490 --> 00:21:23,530 Speaker 1: was difficult to do. They found out who his partner was. 390 00:21:23,650 --> 00:21:27,250 Speaker 1: They sort of just sending her all these death threats 391 00:21:27,250 --> 00:21:29,170 Speaker 1: and messages saying that their children were going to be 392 00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:32,610 Speaker 1: the spawn of demon spawn. She started becoming scared. It 393 00:21:32,690 --> 00:21:37,810 Speaker 1: was this incredible, awful campaign to destroy his life just 394 00:21:37,970 --> 00:21:41,410 Speaker 1: for saying out loud in a YouTube video. I've changed 395 00:21:41,450 --> 00:21:46,050 Speaker 1: my mind. Is this the tribal reasoning that you talk 396 00:21:46,130 --> 00:21:49,210 Speaker 1: about in the course of the book? Oh? Is this? 397 00:21:49,370 --> 00:21:52,170 Speaker 1: This is a particularly extreme version of it, And actually 398 00:21:52,210 --> 00:21:54,850 Speaker 1: the tribal reasoning is something much broader and much more common. 399 00:21:54,970 --> 00:21:56,850 Speaker 1: It's hard to say if this is just an extreme 400 00:21:56,930 --> 00:21:58,730 Speaker 1: version of it, because I've seen people react this way 401 00:21:58,770 --> 00:22:02,330 Speaker 1: to just about anything, if not in this very coordinated, 402 00:22:02,850 --> 00:22:05,450 Speaker 1: sort of awful way, at least on the other side 403 00:22:05,490 --> 00:22:08,170 Speaker 1: of the spectrum, where people go to great links to 404 00:22:08,370 --> 00:22:11,170 Speaker 1: demonstrate that are good members of their groups and we'll 405 00:22:11,170 --> 00:22:14,130 Speaker 1: put everything on their lives aside for whatever they're doing. 406 00:22:14,490 --> 00:22:16,330 Speaker 1: I think we saw it very clearly with COVID, where 407 00:22:16,330 --> 00:22:18,650 Speaker 1: people would refuse to wear a mask, refuse to get 408 00:22:18,730 --> 00:22:22,410 Speaker 1: vaccinated on their deathbeds say that I'm totally okay with 409 00:22:22,450 --> 00:22:24,530 Speaker 1: the fact that I'm dying from this, even though it's 410 00:22:24,570 --> 00:22:28,170 Speaker 1: pretty clear that they're being motivated by a political ideology. 411 00:22:28,570 --> 00:22:30,930 Speaker 1: They're trying to signal to their most trusted peers they 412 00:22:30,930 --> 00:22:32,970 Speaker 1: were a good member of their group by not getting vaccinated. 413 00:22:33,170 --> 00:22:35,170 Speaker 1: I think it's extreme in all sorts of different ways. 414 00:22:35,210 --> 00:22:39,290 Speaker 1: This particular thing seems bonkers and heinous and so weird. 415 00:22:39,930 --> 00:22:42,410 Speaker 1: But the reason it has that atina to it is 416 00:22:42,450 --> 00:22:45,850 Speaker 1: that this was just a very coordinated group of people already. 417 00:22:45,890 --> 00:22:48,690 Speaker 1: They already had this network where they could very quickly 418 00:22:48,730 --> 00:22:51,090 Speaker 1: coordinate and make new actions. And I think that there 419 00:22:51,090 --> 00:22:52,970 Speaker 1: are a lot of other situations where people had that 420 00:22:52,970 --> 00:22:55,290 Speaker 1: ability to coordinate. It would look just as extreme when 421 00:22:55,330 --> 00:22:58,650 Speaker 1: someone did something that felt like it was absolutely worth 422 00:22:58,770 --> 00:23:02,450 Speaker 1: their excommunication. You have to see Charlie is more someone 423 00:23:02,450 --> 00:23:04,330 Speaker 1: who is an elite within the group. It would be 424 00:23:04,370 --> 00:23:06,570 Speaker 1: like the head of a political party walking out on 425 00:23:06,650 --> 00:23:10,050 Speaker 1: stage and saying, my political party is the worst political party. 426 00:23:10,090 --> 00:23:12,290 Speaker 1: I've been convinced of it, and I will never ever 427 00:23:12,770 --> 00:23:15,370 Speaker 1: support anything they ever do ever again, And I don't 428 00:23:15,370 --> 00:23:17,130 Speaker 1: think you should ever vote for people in this particular 429 00:23:17,170 --> 00:23:20,170 Speaker 1: political party. Like imagine at the head of a political 430 00:23:20,170 --> 00:23:22,810 Speaker 1: party saying that it seems strange in a belief structure, 431 00:23:22,890 --> 00:23:25,930 Speaker 1: like a conspiracy theory, only if you look at it 432 00:23:25,930 --> 00:23:29,730 Speaker 1: as a belief structure. It's a community first. And I 433 00:23:29,810 --> 00:23:31,290 Speaker 1: argue in the book that that's true for a lot 434 00:23:31,330 --> 00:23:33,290 Speaker 1: of the things that we think of as just something 435 00:23:33,330 --> 00:23:36,610 Speaker 1: that we like, we love, we believe in, and we 436 00:23:36,650 --> 00:23:38,970 Speaker 1: also have met some other people who feel the same way. 437 00:23:39,370 --> 00:23:41,610 Speaker 1: At a certain point, that crosses a line into being 438 00:23:42,210 --> 00:23:45,570 Speaker 1: a social identity a group identity. The great sociologist Brooke 439 00:23:45,610 --> 00:23:49,250 Speaker 1: Harrington told me that the equal ZYMC square of social 440 00:23:49,290 --> 00:23:52,930 Speaker 1: science is that the fear of social death is greater 441 00:23:52,970 --> 00:23:55,970 Speaker 1: than the fear of physical death. And so if the 442 00:23:56,010 --> 00:23:59,090 Speaker 1: ship is going down, you'll put your reputation on the 443 00:23:59,090 --> 00:24:01,730 Speaker 1: lifeboat and you'll go down with the ship. It seems 444 00:24:01,770 --> 00:24:04,810 Speaker 1: like that might be some sort of motivating, illusory thing. 445 00:24:05,930 --> 00:24:08,850 Speaker 1: But in the case of Charlie, he demonstrates when he 446 00:24:08,930 --> 00:24:12,410 Speaker 1: did change his mind that fear that we think, oh, 447 00:24:12,530 --> 00:24:14,770 Speaker 1: something bad might happen to us, it happened to him. 448 00:24:14,930 --> 00:24:17,850 Speaker 1: They almost ruined his entire life. Had he left his job, 449 00:24:17,850 --> 00:24:20,010 Speaker 1: he had to change his name, he had to move. Now, 450 00:24:20,290 --> 00:24:23,610 Speaker 1: listening to this, I think people will be plunging into 451 00:24:23,650 --> 00:24:28,250 Speaker 1: the despair and fatalism that you describe yourself as holding 452 00:24:28,530 --> 00:24:31,410 Speaker 1: before you started writing the book. Of of course, no 453 00:24:31,450 --> 00:24:33,810 Speaker 1: one listens to the facts. No one ever changed their 454 00:24:33,810 --> 00:24:37,250 Speaker 1: mind about anything. But you do have stories, really really 455 00:24:37,370 --> 00:24:41,010 Speaker 1: striking and persuasive stories of people changing their minds and 456 00:24:41,250 --> 00:24:46,610 Speaker 1: of conversational methods that helped to make that possible. You 457 00:24:46,730 --> 00:24:49,450 Speaker 1: could you tell us a bit about deep canvassing. There's 458 00:24:49,450 --> 00:24:52,250 Speaker 1: a little vignette about the Mustang man and I found 459 00:24:52,250 --> 00:24:55,090 Speaker 1: it very moving. So just tell me about him and 460 00:24:55,730 --> 00:24:58,530 Speaker 1: the context in which he was. He was talking to 461 00:24:58,610 --> 00:25:03,850 Speaker 1: a campaigner. Sure so, around the time that we were 462 00:25:04,290 --> 00:25:07,570 Speaker 1: discussing same sex marriage the United States, I had heard 463 00:25:07,610 --> 00:25:10,690 Speaker 1: about this group of people California who were changing people's 464 00:25:10,690 --> 00:25:12,930 Speaker 1: minds by going door to door and just talking to them. 465 00:25:13,170 --> 00:25:15,210 Speaker 1: I was very curious about it. I I wanted to see 466 00:25:15,250 --> 00:25:18,130 Speaker 1: what was going on, and so I read some of 467 00:25:18,130 --> 00:25:21,050 Speaker 1: the reports about them, and then I've emailed can I 468 00:25:21,090 --> 00:25:22,610 Speaker 1: come out there and can I just do this with you? 469 00:25:23,250 --> 00:25:25,930 Speaker 1: And they said, yeah, of course. So I flew out 470 00:25:25,970 --> 00:25:28,650 Speaker 1: to Los Angeles and I went to the LGBT Center 471 00:25:28,650 --> 00:25:31,850 Speaker 1: of Los Angeles. They have several buildings in LA and 472 00:25:31,890 --> 00:25:34,890 Speaker 1: I went to the one where Dave Flysher works and 473 00:25:35,370 --> 00:25:39,050 Speaker 1: Dave Flyscher had developed this thing called deep canvassing. After 474 00:25:39,650 --> 00:25:43,090 Speaker 1: they lost on Prop eight, there was this legal thing 475 00:25:43,090 --> 00:25:45,930 Speaker 1: that went through in California where they said, no, same 476 00:25:45,970 --> 00:25:48,090 Speaker 1: sex marriage will not be legal here. And they were 477 00:25:48,210 --> 00:25:51,370 Speaker 1: stunned that they had been defeated, and so he just 478 00:25:51,410 --> 00:25:53,330 Speaker 1: wanted to understand how that happened. And he had this 479 00:25:53,650 --> 00:25:56,130 Speaker 1: radical idea of why don't we just go door to 480 00:25:56,170 --> 00:25:59,050 Speaker 1: door and ask people and many of the conversations people 481 00:25:59,050 --> 00:26:02,290 Speaker 1: would change their minds, and they were recording the conversations 482 00:26:02,690 --> 00:26:05,410 Speaker 1: and they did this ab testing thing, this sort of 483 00:26:05,410 --> 00:26:09,410 Speaker 1: playback to see what happened there. And over the course 484 00:26:09,530 --> 00:26:12,490 Speaker 1: of more than seventeen thousand conversations, almost all of them 485 00:26:12,490 --> 00:26:15,210 Speaker 1: recorded on video, ab testing it, throwing away with it 486 00:26:15,210 --> 00:26:18,170 Speaker 1: doesn't work, keeping what does work? They developed this method 487 00:26:18,290 --> 00:26:20,450 Speaker 1: for you knock on a person's door, You talk to 488 00:26:20,450 --> 00:26:23,170 Speaker 1: them in a particular way, You ask questions in a 489 00:26:23,170 --> 00:26:26,290 Speaker 1: particular order, You non judgmentally listen to what they have 490 00:26:26,330 --> 00:26:29,930 Speaker 1: to say about the issue, and then you help them 491 00:26:30,330 --> 00:26:33,410 Speaker 1: introspect in a way they've never introspected before by giving 492 00:26:33,450 --> 00:26:36,130 Speaker 1: them a number scale and all of the persuasion techniques 493 00:26:36,170 --> 00:26:38,010 Speaker 1: I talked about it in the book. Have this number scale, 494 00:26:38,090 --> 00:26:40,610 Speaker 1: or you just say how strongly do you feel about X? 495 00:26:41,050 --> 00:26:43,210 Speaker 1: Or how much do you believe this is true? You know, 496 00:26:43,250 --> 00:26:45,130 Speaker 1: how much confidence do you have an X? And so on, 497 00:26:45,530 --> 00:26:47,770 Speaker 1: And then when a person gives you the number from 498 00:26:47,770 --> 00:26:50,050 Speaker 1: say zero to ten or one to one hundred, you 499 00:26:50,090 --> 00:26:52,330 Speaker 1: didn't say, why does that number feel right to you? 500 00:26:52,330 --> 00:26:57,330 Speaker 1: And the conversation leaves immediately The binary debate space becomes 501 00:26:57,370 --> 00:27:01,850 Speaker 1: this unspooling of what are my reasons for thinking this way? 502 00:27:01,970 --> 00:27:04,210 Speaker 1: What motivated about is? And you allow the person to 503 00:27:04,250 --> 00:27:06,210 Speaker 1: do that on exploration. You're just there to kind of 504 00:27:06,250 --> 00:27:10,090 Speaker 1: help and move it forward, and over time This became 505 00:27:10,170 --> 00:27:12,530 Speaker 1: so successful as a technique that they were actually getting 506 00:27:12,570 --> 00:27:13,970 Speaker 1: a lot of people to change their minds, to the 507 00:27:14,010 --> 00:27:16,730 Speaker 1: point that the scientists sort of studying them. And today 508 00:27:16,730 --> 00:27:19,890 Speaker 1: it's being used in phone banks for all sorts of 509 00:27:19,970 --> 00:27:22,810 Speaker 1: different topics. They had this huge archive, and one of 510 00:27:22,850 --> 00:27:24,730 Speaker 1: the times I visited, I said, can I just go 511 00:27:24,770 --> 00:27:26,530 Speaker 1: to the archives? And they said sure, And it really 512 00:27:26,570 --> 00:27:29,330 Speaker 1: felt like something out of like an FBI thriller or something. 513 00:27:29,330 --> 00:27:32,130 Speaker 1: They had this room all to itself that has several 514 00:27:32,170 --> 00:27:35,250 Speaker 1: ways to read and watch and view all their stuff, 515 00:27:35,370 --> 00:27:38,890 Speaker 1: and they have this amazing archive, very well organized, going 516 00:27:38,930 --> 00:27:41,650 Speaker 1: all the way back to the beginning. And I watched 517 00:27:41,810 --> 00:27:45,450 Speaker 1: eighty of these. I spent days in there. It was incredible. 518 00:27:45,730 --> 00:27:48,890 Speaker 1: And there was one in particular that just stuck out, 519 00:27:48,930 --> 00:27:51,890 Speaker 1: which was the Mustang Man. They call him the Mustang Man. 520 00:27:52,210 --> 00:27:56,570 Speaker 1: And one of the canvassers approaches this man. He is 521 00:27:56,570 --> 00:27:59,090 Speaker 1: in the garage with him, and you know, they asked 522 00:27:59,130 --> 00:28:01,050 Speaker 1: him how he voted on same sex marriage. He voted 523 00:28:01,090 --> 00:28:04,210 Speaker 1: against it. And he's in his seventies, he's wearing shorts, 524 00:28:04,210 --> 00:28:06,610 Speaker 1: he's got a dress shirt, he's smoking a cigarette, he's 525 00:28:06,610 --> 00:28:09,450 Speaker 1: got the Zippo lodder that he's toying with, and he 526 00:28:09,490 --> 00:28:13,090 Speaker 1: tells them, you know, I'm not against gay stuff necessarily. 527 00:28:13,250 --> 00:28:15,490 Speaker 1: I just wish they wouldn't call such a ruckust as 528 00:28:15,530 --> 00:28:17,170 Speaker 1: the way he put it, he said, the country has 529 00:28:17,290 --> 00:28:18,930 Speaker 1: enough problems as it is. I don't know why they 530 00:28:18,930 --> 00:28:21,930 Speaker 1: have to keep causing all these problems. And so the 531 00:28:22,090 --> 00:28:24,890 Speaker 1: canvasser doesn't respond like how dare you, doesn't say you 532 00:28:24,930 --> 00:28:28,210 Speaker 1: should be ashamed for saying such a thing. They just 533 00:28:28,250 --> 00:28:31,490 Speaker 1: start asking questions, Oh, that's I'm wondering why you feel 534 00:28:31,490 --> 00:28:33,690 Speaker 1: that way, and were you at on the number scale? 535 00:28:33,650 --> 00:28:36,370 Speaker 1: And it's just opening up space for this person to 536 00:28:36,410 --> 00:28:38,570 Speaker 1: explore how they feel about it. And in one of 537 00:28:38,610 --> 00:28:41,810 Speaker 1: the questions, he asks if he had ever been married before, 538 00:28:42,330 --> 00:28:44,930 Speaker 1: and the Mustang man says, yeah, for forty three years, 539 00:28:45,210 --> 00:28:48,450 Speaker 1: and she passed away. She passed away about eleven years ago. 540 00:28:48,850 --> 00:28:50,810 Speaker 1: And I'm never going to get over it because I 541 00:28:50,850 --> 00:28:54,090 Speaker 1: was supposed to die first. And then he says, let 542 00:28:54,130 --> 00:28:55,610 Speaker 1: me show you something, and he takes him out and 543 00:28:55,610 --> 00:28:59,330 Speaker 1: he uncovers this tarp over it his wife's vintage Mustang 544 00:28:59,730 --> 00:29:02,570 Speaker 1: and he still maintains it. It's like his central hobby. 545 00:29:02,650 --> 00:29:04,170 Speaker 1: He works on it all the time. Keeps it in 546 00:29:04,250 --> 00:29:06,890 Speaker 1: perfect pristine condition, and he's smoking a cigaret. He says, 547 00:29:06,890 --> 00:29:09,810 Speaker 1: you know, she never smoked the day been drink. She 548 00:29:09,810 --> 00:29:12,130 Speaker 1: wouldn't let me smoke in the car. And he explains 549 00:29:12,170 --> 00:29:14,890 Speaker 1: that one day she found a black spot on her gums. 550 00:29:15,410 --> 00:29:17,970 Speaker 1: It was cancer spread to her throat. She couldn't speak. 551 00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:20,010 Speaker 1: They had to talk to each other across a notepad 552 00:29:20,210 --> 00:29:23,130 Speaker 1: and she died and it just out of nowhere. He 553 00:29:23,170 --> 00:29:26,850 Speaker 1: wasn't prompted. He said, don't pursue money or other riches. 554 00:29:26,970 --> 00:29:30,650 Speaker 1: You just find happiness with somebody. Because material things are loaned. 555 00:29:30,730 --> 00:29:34,410 Speaker 1: Happiness has not loaned. It's yours. I feel, tear you up, 556 00:29:34,450 --> 00:29:38,730 Speaker 1: think about this I get and then the canvass are 557 00:29:38,730 --> 00:29:41,290 Speaker 1: responded by just listening, by just hoping this hold in 558 00:29:41,330 --> 00:29:42,890 Speaker 1: the space and says, you know, it seems like eleven 559 00:29:42,970 --> 00:29:45,290 Speaker 1: years is a long time to be alone. And he 560 00:29:45,330 --> 00:29:46,730 Speaker 1: says it gives you a lot of time to think. 561 00:29:46,730 --> 00:29:49,170 Speaker 1: And he said this statement where he stopped and let 562 00:29:49,170 --> 00:29:51,970 Speaker 1: there be silence, where he said that sometimes he hears 563 00:29:52,010 --> 00:29:54,690 Speaker 1: songs that they loved and he cries, and sometimes he 564 00:29:54,770 --> 00:29:57,530 Speaker 1: remembers jokes that they laughed about. He laughs, and he 565 00:29:57,610 --> 00:30:00,890 Speaker 1: said he's never gotten over her, and that's okay by him. 566 00:30:01,090 --> 00:30:04,330 Speaker 1: I don't want to get over her, And so, without 567 00:30:04,370 --> 00:30:08,010 Speaker 1: any prompting, he then says, while looking in the distance, 568 00:30:08,690 --> 00:30:10,770 Speaker 1: I would want these gay people to be happy too, 569 00:30:11,370 --> 00:30:14,490 Speaker 1: and he convinces himself that he was wrong, and he says, 570 00:30:14,530 --> 00:30:16,210 Speaker 1: you know what, I'd vote for it this time. And 571 00:30:16,490 --> 00:30:19,090 Speaker 1: it was incredible to watch this conversation unfold because he 572 00:30:19,090 --> 00:30:21,610 Speaker 1: clearly was against it, and until he had this conversation 573 00:30:21,650 --> 00:30:23,290 Speaker 1: with a deep canvas or, he didn't know that he 574 00:30:23,330 --> 00:30:27,050 Speaker 1: could feel otherwise. It required someone opening a space and 575 00:30:27,090 --> 00:30:30,130 Speaker 1: going through what they would consider in psychology guided metacognition, 576 00:30:30,210 --> 00:30:32,370 Speaker 1: something that takes place in a lot of therapeutic models, 577 00:30:32,610 --> 00:30:34,970 Speaker 1: where you give a person an opportunity to discover where 578 00:30:34,970 --> 00:30:38,530 Speaker 1: their current attitude comes from, and an opportunity to discover 579 00:30:38,690 --> 00:30:41,250 Speaker 1: that perhaps they could see it otherwise, which was already 580 00:30:41,290 --> 00:30:43,450 Speaker 1: available to them. And that's why I say in the 581 00:30:43,450 --> 00:30:46,770 Speaker 1: book that persuasion, the kind that I advocate and the 582 00:30:46,810 --> 00:30:49,130 Speaker 1: kind that really works, is more about giving a person 583 00:30:49,130 --> 00:30:51,450 Speaker 1: an opportunity to understand that they can change their mind, 584 00:30:51,490 --> 00:30:54,730 Speaker 1: that it's possible, than anything else, because all mind change 585 00:30:54,770 --> 00:30:57,250 Speaker 1: takes place on the other side. People change their own minds, 586 00:30:57,410 --> 00:30:59,890 Speaker 1: and you're encouraging them to engage in some sort of 587 00:30:59,890 --> 00:31:03,370 Speaker 1: metacognitive process that will get them there. It's incredible to 588 00:31:03,410 --> 00:31:05,330 Speaker 1: see it when it unfolds and works in that way. 589 00:31:05,450 --> 00:31:07,130 Speaker 1: You've got to open that space up for people to 590 00:31:07,450 --> 00:31:09,490 Speaker 1: change their own minds. But what I want to come 591 00:31:09,490 --> 00:31:13,290 Speaker 1: back to Charlie Vach because he apparently he had the 592 00:31:13,330 --> 00:31:15,210 Speaker 1: same space, he had the same context as all of 593 00:31:15,250 --> 00:31:20,370 Speaker 1: these other truthers, and none of them considered changing their 594 00:31:20,370 --> 00:31:23,090 Speaker 1: minds for a second. And he wasn't subjected to any 595 00:31:23,090 --> 00:31:28,210 Speaker 1: clever deep canvassing or street epistemology. There was something in him, yes, 596 00:31:28,530 --> 00:31:31,690 Speaker 1: that was different. So what was different about Charlie? What 597 00:31:31,690 --> 00:31:33,850 Speaker 1: was different about his life when he went into that 598 00:31:34,090 --> 00:31:37,690 Speaker 1: process with a BBC that led him coming out on 599 00:31:37,810 --> 00:31:40,690 Speaker 1: a different path from the others. Sure, And I can 600 00:31:40,730 --> 00:31:44,010 Speaker 1: say also to preface this, every person that I met 601 00:31:44,050 --> 00:31:47,770 Speaker 1: who had left either a conspiratorial community or a cult 602 00:31:47,850 --> 00:31:50,810 Speaker 1: or a pseudo cult or something along those lines, there 603 00:31:50,890 --> 00:31:53,250 Speaker 1: was something else at play, and it was this in 604 00:31:53,690 --> 00:31:57,250 Speaker 1: Charlie's case. All those things I talked about when we 605 00:31:57,250 --> 00:31:59,130 Speaker 1: were first started talking about him, all those things that 606 00:31:59,210 --> 00:32:01,810 Speaker 1: led him into the conspiracy that led him to even 607 00:32:01,850 --> 00:32:03,650 Speaker 1: search for something to be amenable to it, to be 608 00:32:03,690 --> 00:32:06,090 Speaker 1: open to it. They were being satisfied in the truth 609 00:32:06,170 --> 00:32:09,610 Speaker 1: or community in a way that he enjoyed. Plus he 610 00:32:09,650 --> 00:32:11,530 Speaker 1: had some fame there that felt really good as a 611 00:32:11,570 --> 00:32:15,690 Speaker 1: person who had been considered lesser than He also was 612 00:32:15,730 --> 00:32:19,130 Speaker 1: interested in all sorts of anarchy themed communities, and he 613 00:32:19,130 --> 00:32:21,890 Speaker 1: had found another one called truth Jews. There were a 614 00:32:21,930 --> 00:32:25,610 Speaker 1: group that was more open your third eye, let's play 615 00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:30,450 Speaker 1: around psychedelics, let's discuss the simulation theory of the universe, 616 00:32:30,490 --> 00:32:33,170 Speaker 1: stuff like that. And in that community he was finding 617 00:32:33,210 --> 00:32:35,530 Speaker 1: that all those same things that motivated him to go 618 00:32:35,530 --> 00:32:39,810 Speaker 1: into the truth community were being more nurtured there, and 619 00:32:39,850 --> 00:32:42,850 Speaker 1: he was slowly moving up there too. He's very charismatic, 620 00:32:42,850 --> 00:32:45,250 Speaker 1: he's a great public speaker, so he was doing a 621 00:32:45,250 --> 00:32:47,290 Speaker 1: great job of do these kind of things that made 622 00:32:47,330 --> 00:32:48,890 Speaker 1: him move up in the truth the world inside the 623 00:32:48,890 --> 00:32:51,610 Speaker 1: truth Jews world. None of the other truthers had anything 624 00:32:51,650 --> 00:32:53,730 Speaker 1: like that. They didn't have a foot in two social 625 00:32:53,770 --> 00:32:55,610 Speaker 1: worlds the way he did. In other words, they didn't 626 00:32:55,650 --> 00:32:58,810 Speaker 1: have a social safety net. Even though the evidence was 627 00:32:58,890 --> 00:33:02,610 Speaker 1: persuasive to them. The costs of accepting it were something 628 00:33:02,650 --> 00:33:05,690 Speaker 1: they could not absorb whereas he could. They had to 629 00:33:05,690 --> 00:33:07,610 Speaker 1: think of the same things. I'm going to be shamed, 630 00:33:07,610 --> 00:33:10,610 Speaker 1: I'm going to be ostracized. And none of this is articulated. Now, 631 00:33:10,610 --> 00:33:12,450 Speaker 1: this is salient. This is the other things that are 632 00:33:12,610 --> 00:33:15,010 Speaker 1: motivating their behavior without their knowledge for the most part. 633 00:33:15,370 --> 00:33:18,210 Speaker 1: But he feels safe to change his mind. He feels safe, 634 00:33:18,410 --> 00:33:21,250 Speaker 1: so he could change his mind. So he did. Yeah, 635 00:33:21,290 --> 00:33:23,610 Speaker 1: this thing that everybody said, the other truth has said, 636 00:33:23,730 --> 00:33:26,610 Speaker 1: like who got to him? The answer is, well, this 637 00:33:26,890 --> 00:33:32,210 Speaker 1: slightly wacky pyramids and crystals, energy circles, Truth Juice movement 638 00:33:32,530 --> 00:33:34,970 Speaker 1: got to him. Not in the way that they put 639 00:33:34,970 --> 00:33:37,850 Speaker 1: it unto his head or paid him off, but just 640 00:33:37,930 --> 00:33:41,770 Speaker 1: that they were offering him an alternative, slightly wacky, but 641 00:33:41,850 --> 00:33:46,330 Speaker 1: much more benevolent community that he knew he could flourish in. 642 00:33:46,530 --> 00:33:49,370 Speaker 1: And it's not totally unlike what happens in deep camvusing, 643 00:33:49,410 --> 00:33:53,410 Speaker 1: because in deep camusing, one sort of representative of another 644 00:33:53,450 --> 00:33:55,850 Speaker 1: community comes along and says, I will listen to you 645 00:33:56,010 --> 00:34:00,250 Speaker 1: in a non judgmental, empathetic way, and I will hear 646 00:34:00,290 --> 00:34:03,290 Speaker 1: you out, and I won't pushback against it, and I 647 00:34:03,290 --> 00:34:05,890 Speaker 1: won't shame you for what you're saying in many cases, 648 00:34:06,050 --> 00:34:07,890 Speaker 1: so the first time that person's ever experienced that, but 649 00:34:07,970 --> 00:34:11,570 Speaker 1: someone who they thought would immediately jump into a debate 650 00:34:11,610 --> 00:34:13,850 Speaker 1: and argue with them and get angry and possibly a 651 00:34:13,890 --> 00:34:17,210 Speaker 1: good aphisticas. And with the people I met who left Westboro, 652 00:34:17,290 --> 00:34:20,290 Speaker 1: Babin's Church, particularly Meghan Phelps roper very similar to what 653 00:34:20,330 --> 00:34:24,730 Speaker 1: happened with Charlie. And we should say Westboro's this church 654 00:34:24,810 --> 00:34:27,890 Speaker 1: that's famous for just being incredibly in flourishes, showing up 655 00:34:27,930 --> 00:34:32,210 Speaker 1: at the funerals of veterans who died in Afghanistan and 656 00:34:32,330 --> 00:34:35,090 Speaker 1: saying thank God for dead soldiers and just deliberately getting 657 00:34:35,090 --> 00:34:37,730 Speaker 1: in people's faces. And it's kind of this strange cult 658 00:34:37,810 --> 00:34:41,610 Speaker 1: like organization. And you talk to several people who had 659 00:34:41,730 --> 00:34:44,770 Speaker 1: left about that jah they're one of the most prominent 660 00:34:44,770 --> 00:34:47,370 Speaker 1: hate groups in the United States. They're very anti Semitic, 661 00:34:47,410 --> 00:34:49,450 Speaker 1: and when I say very, that's they're about the most 662 00:34:49,650 --> 00:34:52,490 Speaker 1: anti semitic that a group could be. Meghan Phelps, who 663 00:34:52,690 --> 00:34:54,730 Speaker 1: she was a younger member of the group who was 664 00:34:54,730 --> 00:34:56,690 Speaker 1: active on social media. They loved this about the fact 665 00:34:56,690 --> 00:34:58,490 Speaker 1: that she was good at getting on social media and 666 00:34:58,530 --> 00:35:00,850 Speaker 1: she pretty much spent all day arguing of the people 667 00:35:00,930 --> 00:35:04,130 Speaker 1: and somebody who was prominent in the Jewish community. They 668 00:35:04,170 --> 00:35:07,490 Speaker 1: reached out to her over a Twitter and they extended 669 00:35:07,530 --> 00:35:09,210 Speaker 1: a hand. They said, I'd like to spend time you 670 00:35:09,250 --> 00:35:11,530 Speaker 1: want to talk to you about this and hear you out. 671 00:35:11,570 --> 00:35:13,410 Speaker 1: I want to understand your position, I want to hear 672 00:35:13,450 --> 00:35:15,730 Speaker 1: more about what you think, feeling believe. I'm curious in 673 00:35:15,810 --> 00:35:19,650 Speaker 1: you and in a compassionate, transparent, non judgmental way. They 674 00:35:20,010 --> 00:35:22,930 Speaker 1: opened up a space just to talk. And then as 675 00:35:22,930 --> 00:35:25,010 Speaker 1: they started building a bit of rapport with each other, 676 00:35:25,490 --> 00:35:28,770 Speaker 1: he started making fun of her, making little jokes, the 677 00:35:28,850 --> 00:35:30,290 Speaker 1: kind of stuff that you would do with your friend 678 00:35:30,290 --> 00:35:33,410 Speaker 1: when you leave a movie theater. He started just trolling her, 679 00:35:33,450 --> 00:35:37,530 Speaker 1: and they developed a friendly rapport even though they both 680 00:35:37,650 --> 00:35:40,970 Speaker 1: knew they were on two different sides ideologically. And over 681 00:35:41,090 --> 00:35:44,090 Speaker 1: time it had an effect to the point that she 682 00:35:44,290 --> 00:35:47,570 Speaker 1: was at some sort of public event where people kind 683 00:35:47,570 --> 00:35:49,490 Speaker 1: of circled her because a lot of people hate West 684 00:35:49,490 --> 00:35:51,890 Speaker 1: Brother's church, and he was there in person, and he 685 00:35:51,930 --> 00:35:55,490 Speaker 1: defended her. And when some things happened in the West 686 00:35:55,530 --> 00:35:57,210 Speaker 1: Brow that she didn't like, which is similar to what 687 00:35:57,210 --> 00:35:59,570 Speaker 1: happened with Charlie, that he had that experience, He's like, oh, 688 00:35:59,570 --> 00:36:02,330 Speaker 1: that was gross, I don't like this, and she started 689 00:36:02,410 --> 00:36:05,450 Speaker 1: having the foot in both worlds, and when it came 690 00:36:05,490 --> 00:36:08,090 Speaker 1: time to leave, that was the off ramp that got 691 00:36:08,090 --> 00:36:10,530 Speaker 1: her out of that world. What I find compelling about 692 00:36:10,570 --> 00:36:13,370 Speaker 1: all these stories is that I always thought people change 693 00:36:13,410 --> 00:36:15,810 Speaker 1: their beliefs then they left the groups. But most often 694 00:36:15,850 --> 00:36:17,890 Speaker 1: what happens is they leave the groups and then they 695 00:36:18,010 --> 00:36:20,610 Speaker 1: change their beliefs, and there's something else that is involved 696 00:36:20,770 --> 00:36:22,610 Speaker 1: for making them feel like, I don't think this community 697 00:36:22,650 --> 00:36:25,690 Speaker 1: is the right community for me, and it should offer 698 00:36:25,730 --> 00:36:27,890 Speaker 1: you some cognitive empathy for the people on the other 699 00:36:27,930 --> 00:36:31,130 Speaker 1: side of issues, where if you can recognize they may 700 00:36:31,210 --> 00:36:34,730 Speaker 1: be trapped by those same tribal tendencies, they may actually 701 00:36:34,770 --> 00:36:39,370 Speaker 1: be imprisoned by this thing, then you can approach them 702 00:36:39,370 --> 00:36:42,570 Speaker 1: with this sort of non judgmental compassion to listening frame 703 00:36:42,810 --> 00:36:46,090 Speaker 1: in a way that addresses that part of the motivation 704 00:36:46,690 --> 00:36:48,850 Speaker 1: that is keeping them away from accepting the evidence that 705 00:36:48,890 --> 00:36:51,250 Speaker 1: you think should just speak for itself. There's more than 706 00:36:51,290 --> 00:36:54,770 Speaker 1: one story towards the end of your book in which 707 00:36:54,890 --> 00:36:59,810 Speaker 1: it seems that you are setting up to use your 708 00:37:00,170 --> 00:37:05,650 Speaker 1: clever psychological hacks and conversational strategies to change somebody's mind 709 00:37:06,130 --> 00:37:10,450 Speaker 1: and in both cases, actually you don't, and that's okay. 710 00:37:10,730 --> 00:37:13,970 Speaker 1: Do you think sometimes we're just too desperate to change 711 00:37:14,010 --> 00:37:17,290 Speaker 1: other people? I do. In the introduction, I try to 712 00:37:17,290 --> 00:37:19,770 Speaker 1: make it very clear that you really need to ask 713 00:37:19,770 --> 00:37:22,450 Speaker 1: yourself why you want to do this, because I had 714 00:37:22,490 --> 00:37:25,570 Speaker 1: had several experiences after getting what I felt was like, Wow, 715 00:37:25,610 --> 00:37:29,250 Speaker 1: I have this incredible superpower. Now I can just change minds. 716 00:37:29,610 --> 00:37:33,570 Speaker 1: I spent time with a flat earther, the Great Mark Sergeant, 717 00:37:33,770 --> 00:37:35,890 Speaker 1: and we had we were having a good time in Sweden. 718 00:37:35,930 --> 00:37:37,970 Speaker 1: We both got one of those invites that it just 719 00:37:38,010 --> 00:37:40,130 Speaker 1: comes out of nowhere, come to Sweden, come on stage 720 00:37:40,130 --> 00:37:41,810 Speaker 1: and talk about this because they had heard me talk 721 00:37:41,850 --> 00:37:44,250 Speaker 1: about it flat earthers on the podcast, and he's a 722 00:37:44,250 --> 00:37:46,210 Speaker 1: prominent flat earth But we had such a good time 723 00:37:46,250 --> 00:37:48,130 Speaker 1: hanging out and he was such a fun person. It's 724 00:37:48,170 --> 00:37:51,010 Speaker 1: such a It was interesting. I took the technique up 725 00:37:51,050 --> 00:37:53,490 Speaker 1: to the point where he said he was totally openly 726 00:37:53,570 --> 00:37:56,050 Speaker 1: changing his mind maybe, and then I could tell that 727 00:37:56,090 --> 00:37:58,210 Speaker 1: if I pushed more than that, that that it would ruin everything, 728 00:37:58,450 --> 00:38:00,090 Speaker 1: that we'd never be able to talk for the rest 729 00:38:00,090 --> 00:38:01,970 Speaker 1: of the time. And it felt felt what's the good 730 00:38:02,010 --> 00:38:04,610 Speaker 1: and that I would rather let's have a good time 731 00:38:04,610 --> 00:38:07,810 Speaker 1: in Sweden and then go get some food. It's very 732 00:38:07,810 --> 00:38:10,210 Speaker 1: easy to assume that the facts are on your side. 733 00:38:10,250 --> 00:38:12,050 Speaker 1: It's very easy to assume that you're the hero in 734 00:38:12,130 --> 00:38:15,410 Speaker 1: the story. And I was so excited about Deep Campus 735 00:38:15,490 --> 00:38:17,770 Speaker 1: Ring when when I left the first time that I 736 00:38:17,810 --> 00:38:21,210 Speaker 1: went there, that I sat down with my friend Misha Globerman, 737 00:38:21,290 --> 00:38:26,850 Speaker 1: who is a conflict resolution actual professional negotiator. I told them, 738 00:38:26,890 --> 00:38:29,170 Speaker 1: they're trying. There's one of the great statements they make 739 00:38:29,330 --> 00:38:31,730 Speaker 1: is I'm just trying to solve a mystery together with you. 740 00:38:32,170 --> 00:38:33,930 Speaker 1: And I was telling, you know, the mystery is like 741 00:38:33,970 --> 00:38:36,570 Speaker 1: why do we disagree? And he's like, the mystery for 742 00:38:36,650 --> 00:38:39,530 Speaker 1: the Deep campuss is why are you wrong? And I'm right. 743 00:38:39,570 --> 00:38:42,130 Speaker 1: I was like, no, no, that's that's not where they're 744 00:38:42,170 --> 00:38:45,370 Speaker 1: coming from. And he's like, David, they're biased. I mean 745 00:38:45,610 --> 00:38:47,650 Speaker 1: I agree with them. You agree with them. We share 746 00:38:47,690 --> 00:38:50,570 Speaker 1: their values and we think that what they're doing is 747 00:38:51,010 --> 00:38:54,810 Speaker 1: good because we feel that that we want the LGBTPQ 748 00:38:54,930 --> 00:38:57,610 Speaker 1: people to have more freedoms in this world. We want 749 00:38:57,650 --> 00:39:01,010 Speaker 1: the laws to change. We want that. But don't kid 750 00:39:01,050 --> 00:39:04,090 Speaker 1: yourself that it isn't persuasion. But at that point the journey, 751 00:39:04,130 --> 00:39:06,890 Speaker 1: I had thought to myself, no, they were just putting 752 00:39:06,890 --> 00:39:10,810 Speaker 1: people on the correct path, but I had to admit, yeah, 753 00:39:10,850 --> 00:39:13,890 Speaker 1: it is a persuasion and they were biased. So be 754 00:39:14,370 --> 00:39:17,050 Speaker 1: honest with yourself at least that you are biased, and 755 00:39:17,970 --> 00:39:20,130 Speaker 1: be sure that you're biased in the direction of what 756 00:39:20,170 --> 00:39:22,810 Speaker 1: you're trying to do is reduce harm in this world, 757 00:39:23,330 --> 00:39:26,330 Speaker 1: and be aware of the fact that it's possible you 758 00:39:26,330 --> 00:39:28,850 Speaker 1: could be misleading yourself into thinking you're reducing harm in 759 00:39:28,850 --> 00:39:31,090 Speaker 1: your narme. I think that the LGBT Center of Los 760 00:39:31,130 --> 00:39:33,610 Speaker 1: Angeles is absolutely reducing harm in this world. But I 761 00:39:33,610 --> 00:39:36,050 Speaker 1: can imagine other people who would try to employ such techniques, 762 00:39:36,090 --> 00:39:38,010 Speaker 1: who would be convinced of such a thing, and I 763 00:39:38,050 --> 00:39:41,290 Speaker 1: would not agree with them. David McCraney is the host 764 00:39:41,330 --> 00:39:44,090 Speaker 1: of the You Are Not So Smart podcast you should 765 00:39:44,130 --> 00:39:46,450 Speaker 1: all be subscribing, and he is the author of the 766 00:39:46,530 --> 00:39:50,530 Speaker 1: wonderful new book How Minds Change. David, thank you so 767 00:39:50,650 --> 00:39:53,490 Speaker 1: much for joining cous Metals. Thank you so much for 768 00:39:53,530 --> 00:40:11,010 Speaker 1: having me. It's been such a pleasure. Cautionary Tales is 769 00:40:11,050 --> 00:40:15,050 Speaker 1: written by me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright. It's produced 770 00:40:15,050 --> 00:40:18,930 Speaker 1: by Ryan Dilley with support from Courtney Guarino and Emily Vaughan. 771 00:40:19,410 --> 00:40:22,250 Speaker 1: The sound design and original music is the work of 772 00:40:22,490 --> 00:40:25,970 Speaker 1: Pascal Wise. It features the voice talents of Ben Crow, 773 00:40:26,370 --> 00:40:31,010 Speaker 1: Melanie Gutridge, Stella Harford, and rufus Wright. The show also 774 00:40:31,090 --> 00:40:33,850 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been possible without the work of Mia LaBelle, 775 00:40:34,210 --> 00:40:39,370 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, Heather Fane, John Schnars, Julia Barton, Carlie mcgliori, 776 00:40:39,810 --> 00:40:45,010 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Royston Berserv, Maggie Taylor, Nicole Mrano, Danian Lakhan, 777 00:40:45,450 --> 00:40:50,610 Speaker 1: and Mayakine. Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. 778 00:40:50,850 --> 00:40:53,570 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please remember to share, rate 779 00:40:53,690 --> 00:40:56,770 Speaker 1: and review, tell a friend, tell two friends, and if 780 00:40:56,770 --> 00:40:58,970 Speaker 1: you want to hear the show, adds free and listen 781 00:40:59,010 --> 00:41:03,170 Speaker 1: to four exclusive Cautionary Tales shorts. Then sign up for 782 00:41:03,330 --> 00:41:06,890 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple Podcasts or 783 00:41:06,970 --> 00:41:09,730 Speaker 1: at pushkin dot fm, slash plus