WEBVTT - Joan Baez (Broken Record Live) 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:20.316 --> 0:00:23.316 Of all the groundbreaking musicians to come out of the sixties, 0:00:23.596 --> 0:00:27.556 few were as engaged socially and politically as Joan Biaz. 0:00:28.356 --> 0:00:32.436 A lifelong proponent of nonviolent activism, Joan marched with doctor 0:00:32.476 --> 0:00:36.036 Martin Luther King Junior and has continued to advocate for 0:00:36.156 --> 0:00:40.716 nonviolent civil disobedience ever since. With the release of her 0:00:40.756 --> 0:00:44.516 debut album in nineteen sixty, Joan Bayez became the pre 0:00:44.556 --> 0:00:49.116 eminent female folkye. With just her exquisite soprano and her guitar, 0:00:49.636 --> 0:00:53.516 she reworked classic American folk songs and eventually wrote songs 0:00:53.556 --> 0:00:57.196 that helped fuel her activism. By the time she helped 0:00:57.236 --> 0:00:59.716 launch Bob Dylan's career by inviting him on stage with 0:00:59.756 --> 0:01:04.276 her in the early sixties, Joan was already an international sensation. 0:01:05.236 --> 0:01:08.876 In twenty nineteen, after a career that spanned nearly six decades, 0:01:09.196 --> 0:01:13.436 Joan announced she was no longer performing live. In recent years, 0:01:13.476 --> 0:01:17.236 she's turned her creative attention to visual art. Her new 0:01:17.236 --> 0:01:19.636 book of drawings, titled Am I Pretty When I Fly, 0:01:20.276 --> 0:01:24.876 features sketches rooted in humor, freedom, and sorrow, but in 0:01:24.876 --> 0:01:28.916 classic Joan by A style of course. Her drawings defy convention, 0:01:29.516 --> 0:01:33.316 they were all drawn upside down. On today's episode, you'll 0:01:33.356 --> 0:01:36.356 hear a live conversation I had with Joan Baez at 0:01:36.396 --> 0:01:40.476 the Chicago Humanities Festival in May. Joan spoke about the 0:01:40.476 --> 0:01:43.956 emotional catharsis she finds in drawing. She also talked about 0:01:44.036 --> 0:01:47.116 juggling music and activism as a young artist, and what 0:01:47.276 --> 0:01:50.116 happened when she handed over access to her personal storage 0:01:50.196 --> 0:01:54.996 unit to a group of documentary filmmakers. Also, despite giving 0:01:55.036 --> 0:01:58.196 up live performance, she took a moment to serenade the 0:01:58.196 --> 0:02:05.756 crowd all with her beautiful, beloved voice. This is broken 0:02:05.796 --> 0:02:09.076 record liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Ritchman. 0:02:09.956 --> 0:02:15.036 Here's my conversation with the great Joan Bias. Thank you 0:02:15.076 --> 0:02:18.196 so much for making this wonderful book of your drawings. 0:02:18.196 --> 0:02:21.676 They're amazing and I can't wait to get into a 0:02:21.716 --> 0:02:22.276 lot of them. 0:02:22.756 --> 0:02:24.916 But before we get into that, it's amazing. 0:02:24.956 --> 0:02:28.276 We're both from California, we both flew here to Chicago 0:02:28.316 --> 0:02:32.796 to do this, and it feels very apt because in 0:02:32.836 --> 0:02:34.676 a lot of ways, this. 0:02:34.716 --> 0:02:37.756 Is kind of where you started it in show business. 0:02:37.876 --> 0:02:43.476 Right was certainly this atmosphere of folk folk music, folk folks, 0:02:43.556 --> 0:02:46.636 and that was mine was mainly in Cambridge, and people 0:02:46.636 --> 0:02:48.756 associate me with the village, but I was only there 0:02:48.796 --> 0:02:51.476 a couple of times. It was mainly Cambridge and the 0:02:51.516 --> 0:02:53.036 folks scene there, Yeah. 0:02:52.796 --> 0:02:54.596 Well, which is where you would have gotten into music. 0:02:54.636 --> 0:02:57.796 But then the Gate of Horn here in Chicago really 0:02:57.836 --> 0:02:59.956 feels like Albert Grossman's club. 0:03:00.116 --> 0:03:01.916 Oh my god. That was a big deal for me 0:03:01.956 --> 0:03:05.636 because I was eighteen or nineteen and I was scared 0:03:05.676 --> 0:03:07.916 to death, and also I was afraid that if I 0:03:07.956 --> 0:03:10.636 sang somewhere where they were still booze, I would go 0:03:10.636 --> 0:03:13.996 to hell. I mean literally, that's where I was at 0:03:13.996 --> 0:03:17.116 that point in my life. And I heard Albert grosswim 0:03:17.156 --> 0:03:19.916 trying to convince my parents that I should come and 0:03:19.916 --> 0:03:23.596 sing at the Gate of Horn, and I heard one 0:03:23.676 --> 0:03:26.636 of them say, oh, she'll never do it, she's too scared. 0:03:26.676 --> 0:03:31.636 So immediately I said, Okay, I'm going yeah, and I did. 0:03:31.996 --> 0:03:34.676 In two or three weeks or something like that. I 0:03:34.756 --> 0:03:36.836 opened for Bob Gibson at the Gate of. 0:03:36.796 --> 0:03:44.956 Horn, legendary place, and a young Roger McGuinn was lurking around, 0:03:45.076 --> 0:03:47.916 and who was born and raised here, and I can't 0:03:47.916 --> 0:03:48.996 imagine what that must. 0:03:48.796 --> 0:03:49.276 Have looked like. 0:03:49.996 --> 0:03:53.636 That also led to you performing at the inaugural Newport 0:03:53.716 --> 0:03:55.756 Folk Festival, right, isn't it is the. 0:03:55.716 --> 0:03:58.636 First one up until then it had been jazz festival, 0:03:58.756 --> 0:04:01.396 just a jazz festival. And like the little club where 0:04:01.396 --> 0:04:04.396 I sang, Club forty seven in Cambridge, it had been 0:04:04.516 --> 0:04:08.036 a jazz club for years. These two women ran it 0:04:08.276 --> 0:04:10.436 and then they saw the writing on the wall and 0:04:11.236 --> 0:04:14.436 start putting folk music in. And I was the first artist, 0:04:14.556 --> 0:04:17.476 and I got paid ten dollars a night. I was 0:04:17.836 --> 0:04:19.036 rich broad. 0:04:18.716 --> 0:04:18.916 You know. 0:04:18.996 --> 0:04:21.596 And then and then pretty soon it was two nights 0:04:21.636 --> 0:04:25.756 a week and fifteen dollars a night. And my family says, 0:04:25.756 --> 0:04:28.276 I would come home with this money and I'd throw 0:04:28.316 --> 0:04:30.196 it over. We had a balcony and I'd hurl it 0:04:30.236 --> 0:04:33.116 over the balcony. I thought everybody would like that so much, 0:04:33.116 --> 0:04:34.316 and they all hated me for it. 0:04:37.956 --> 0:04:39.476 You must what was your parents? 0:04:39.956 --> 0:04:42.636 Your parents didn't think you would actually settle into this 0:04:42.836 --> 0:04:46.516 lifestyle or to this career as a but what was 0:04:46.556 --> 0:04:51.276 the impression of you actually sort of starting to become actual, 0:04:51.836 --> 0:04:52.796 like a working musician. 0:04:53.356 --> 0:04:55.556 I have to give my father credit. He didn't like 0:04:55.636 --> 0:04:58.756 the whole folk music idea for me, say ass, you know, 0:04:58.916 --> 0:05:01.596 talk about your family. They want to make sure you're 0:05:01.636 --> 0:05:03.436 on a straight and arrow and going to make money 0:05:03.876 --> 0:05:08.476 or get married or whatever's appropriate. But after he was 0:05:08.516 --> 0:05:10.836 the one who took me into Harvard Square. I took 0:05:10.916 --> 0:05:12.956 the way he had three daughters and his wife into 0:05:12.956 --> 0:05:17.396 Harvard Square because he'd seen this phenomenon of folk clubs. 0:05:17.436 --> 0:05:22.196 And they were filled with smoke and Harvard students playing 0:05:22.316 --> 0:05:25.796 chess and reading and you know, being very academic and 0:05:25.796 --> 0:05:30.636 philosophical and cool. And I saw a young man playing 0:05:30.996 --> 0:05:34.156 I think it was guitar or some string instrument under 0:05:34.196 --> 0:05:37.116 his yellow light, and he was singing Pleasure No More. 0:05:37.836 --> 0:05:39.716 And it was over for me. I mean, that's all 0:05:39.796 --> 0:05:42.996 I was interested in ever after. That was being there, 0:05:43.796 --> 0:05:47.516 got myself a guitar, copied everybody, stole everything they ever did. 0:05:47.956 --> 0:05:50.716 And my mother was my greatest fan. I mean, if 0:05:50.756 --> 0:05:53.236 I'd stayed in the crib and just played with beads 0:05:53.276 --> 0:05:54.756 the rest of my life, she was to have the 0:05:54.796 --> 0:05:59.396 best bead player you ever. But my dad realized that 0:05:59.476 --> 0:06:02.916 this was something real and he appreciated it. 0:06:03.156 --> 0:06:03.476 Wow. 0:06:03.956 --> 0:06:06.196 I was surprised going through the book because it seems 0:06:06.196 --> 0:06:08.636 to me, you've lived a relatively I should not even 0:06:08.636 --> 0:06:11.636 relatively like a very charmed life. And I was surprised 0:06:11.636 --> 0:06:15.876 to see the amount of under the heading of innocence, 0:06:15.916 --> 0:06:17.476 and early in the book, the amount of sort of 0:06:17.556 --> 0:06:20.556 angst that comes from the your drawing of children. 0:06:21.716 --> 0:06:25.316 You know, I was a Mexican down near the border 0:06:25.316 --> 0:06:28.276 in southern California, which is where you know an image 0:06:28.076 --> 0:06:31.156 like middle school who had come from, and so I 0:06:31.236 --> 0:06:33.956 wasn't an outsider and I was those and our family 0:06:34.036 --> 0:06:35.876 moved all the time, so it was a new school. 0:06:36.196 --> 0:06:38.996 I was the outsider. There's a picture in there of 0:06:39.476 --> 0:06:42.316 a little girl at the door of teacher saying, who 0:06:42.316 --> 0:06:45.676 wants to sit next to Waneda? Well, nobody's going to 0:06:45.716 --> 0:06:47.036 want to sit next to one Eita. It was a 0:06:47.116 --> 0:06:50.076 terrible way to say it. And so I mean, I 0:06:50.156 --> 0:06:54.956 appear to myself in these drawings a lot. I didn't 0:06:54.996 --> 0:06:57.116 know that ahead of time, because I don't know what's 0:06:57.156 --> 0:06:59.756 going to come out on that page when I started drawing. 0:07:00.076 --> 0:07:02.236 But I see me in a lot of it, and 0:07:02.276 --> 0:07:05.276 there was we were marginal our family I was. My 0:07:05.356 --> 0:07:09.756 father was born in Mexico, and I look Mexican didn't 0:07:09.796 --> 0:07:13.036 so they didn't have as much trouble. But that's where 0:07:13.436 --> 0:07:16.716 that feeling marginal came from. 0:07:16.436 --> 0:07:17.196 It appears you're. 0:07:17.556 --> 0:07:20.636 The way you think about children, maybe more largely, if 0:07:20.636 --> 0:07:23.876 not just your own childhood, is that there's this interaction 0:07:23.996 --> 0:07:28.036 with adults, that is, there's a tense interaction if anything. 0:07:29.676 --> 0:07:35.196 Yeah, I don't know what to say about that. Kids 0:07:35.196 --> 0:07:39.316 trying to communicate with anybody, uncertainly with their parents and 0:07:39.356 --> 0:07:42.236 that division. And you know when a good parent keeps 0:07:42.276 --> 0:07:45.836 trying to find a way to their kid, often by listening. 0:07:45.876 --> 0:07:49.276 But we're it's all such bad listeners, you know, that's 0:07:49.356 --> 0:07:52.516 really what the kid wants. And the little kid there 0:07:52.596 --> 0:07:55.716 is basically saying, Mom, you know who I exist. I'm 0:07:55.716 --> 0:07:59.756 here and mom's busy hanging out the launrday and she's 0:07:59.796 --> 0:08:01.996 not paying any attention and all, No, that is not 0:08:02.116 --> 0:08:02.556 my mom. 0:08:02.916 --> 0:08:06.556 Where do these I know you don't know exactly where 0:08:06.596 --> 0:08:08.876 these come from, but maybe we can start with all 0:08:08.916 --> 0:08:11.716 of the drawings in the book come from drawing upside down. 0:08:12.156 --> 0:08:13.036 How did that start? 0:08:14.436 --> 0:08:18.436 I'm thinking that it started we were talking about me 0:08:18.556 --> 0:08:23.796 finding refuge for myself from whatever was bothering me, and 0:08:23.916 --> 0:08:26.636 whatever happened in the process of a combination of that 0:08:26.956 --> 0:08:31.196 and really not being bored with school. I mean I 0:08:31.236 --> 0:08:33.276 was afraid of but I was also just board stiff, 0:08:33.276 --> 0:08:36.156 and so I started writing with my left hand. Well, 0:08:36.156 --> 0:08:41.316 that was interesting, And then I started drawing backwards. That 0:08:41.476 --> 0:08:47.156 was interesting. I wrote the entire Greek alphabet backwards, and 0:08:47.596 --> 0:08:50.876 you know now memorized it backwords. If that gives you 0:08:50.916 --> 0:08:53.356 any idea of how important that math close was to me, 0:08:53.836 --> 0:08:56.676 that's how important it was to me. And then I 0:08:56.756 --> 0:08:58.436 just look at it as a sort of a graduation 0:08:58.596 --> 0:09:02.196 when I moved into drawing, Drawing upside down and putting 0:09:02.196 --> 0:09:07.076 the labels and the processes is not difficult. It's just confusing. 0:09:07.516 --> 0:09:10.116 If I'm sitting here and I'm drawing, you're seeing it 0:09:10.196 --> 0:09:13.316 right side up. I'm seeing it upside down. Often I 0:09:13.356 --> 0:09:15.356 don't know what it's going to be at all. Just 0:09:15.396 --> 0:09:18.476 start making these lines around the page, and then it 0:09:18.516 --> 0:09:21.076 begins to develop. And sometimes I think, oh, I get it. 0:09:21.156 --> 0:09:24.036 That's the guy and that's the dog. And then we'll 0:09:24.036 --> 0:09:26.556 develop from there, and then I'll turn it back, I 0:09:26.676 --> 0:09:29.836 look at it and see if there's something to fill 0:09:29.876 --> 0:09:34.036 in with, and or a phrase will come to my mind. 0:09:34.516 --> 0:09:37.636 That's the magic of it that I might have even 0:09:37.716 --> 0:09:40.276 started with one idea, but when I turn it around, saying, oh, 0:09:40.356 --> 0:09:43.276 that's not what it's saying to me, It's saying something different. 0:09:43.756 --> 0:09:45.356 And then I turn it back and I write it 0:09:45.436 --> 0:09:46.756 upside down right. 0:09:48.676 --> 0:09:51.716 When you add the phrase to the drawings. 0:09:52.116 --> 0:09:54.836 At that point, are you are you analyzing where this 0:09:54.916 --> 0:09:56.916 might have come from within you? Or is it really 0:09:56.956 --> 0:09:59.276 then also just looking at it almost as if anyone 0:09:59.316 --> 0:10:01.276 could have drawn it and seeing. 0:10:00.996 --> 0:10:06.556 What that's nice? Yeah, you know, I just don't analyze 0:10:06.876 --> 0:10:11.156 period any of this stuff. I'm sure I analyze some things, 0:10:11.196 --> 0:10:14.396 but it would kind of, my opinion, probably ruin it 0:10:14.436 --> 0:10:17.316 a little if I knew exactly, you know, the dynamics 0:10:17.356 --> 0:10:21.756 of Stephen Colbert said, Oh, do you stand on your 0:10:21.796 --> 0:10:24.876 head to do these drawings? I said, sort of, picture 0:10:24.916 --> 0:10:28.556 me dangling off a jungle gym during the drawing stufside down. 0:10:29.396 --> 0:10:32.756 Do you find yourself revising any of the writings that 0:10:32.796 --> 0:10:33.756 you put above it, any. 0:10:33.556 --> 0:10:36.756 Of the Oh good question. Once it's written down, I 0:10:36.796 --> 0:10:40.796 can't because it's an ink. Sometimes I look at it 0:10:40.796 --> 0:10:42.836 and I think, oh, it should have said you know, 0:10:43.316 --> 0:10:44.916 but it's written, so I can't change it. 0:10:45.076 --> 0:10:47.516 Sure, we could find a way for you to do 0:10:47.596 --> 0:10:52.356 that and preserve the integrity of the drawing, but that 0:10:52.356 --> 0:10:54.916 would be less fun. I guess when do you find 0:10:54.916 --> 0:10:58.756 yourself drawing upside down versus right side up? Is there 0:10:58.756 --> 0:11:00.276 a reason that you drop side down? 0:11:00.396 --> 0:11:03.716 Like, is it when you feel stuck or no? 0:11:03.716 --> 0:11:07.076 No, it's just fun. But I draw right side up 0:11:07.116 --> 0:11:10.636 as well, you know, mostly those sketch little things. And 0:11:10.636 --> 0:11:12.436 then I drew when I was in junior high in 0:11:12.516 --> 0:11:15.796 high school, and I drew my boyfriends, and I drew 0:11:15.836 --> 0:11:19.396 James Dean, and I charged five dollars for the drawings. 0:11:21.076 --> 0:11:22.836 But if you go back way far, and this is 0:11:22.836 --> 0:11:25.236 in the introduction to the book, but I would draw 0:11:25.356 --> 0:11:29.716 Bambi and Thumper from my little porcelain guys, you know. 0:11:30.236 --> 0:11:32.796 And then I I charged three pennies for each one. 0:11:33.236 --> 0:11:35.556 And that little place where you put your pencil inside 0:11:35.556 --> 0:11:37.716 the wooden desk and I would have pennies in it. 0:11:40.196 --> 0:11:43.516 That's amazing in terms of the creativity that goes into 0:11:43.556 --> 0:11:45.876 your drawings or the way you approach it, the sort 0:11:45.876 --> 0:11:49.116 of non analyzing, the wanting to sort of do it 0:11:49.196 --> 0:11:51.796 upside down to ensure that it's coming from like a 0:11:51.876 --> 0:11:55.196 real sort of subconscious place. Was that also the case 0:11:55.196 --> 0:11:56.756 with your music. 0:11:57.796 --> 0:12:01.556 In the way that it came naturally and untrained. Then 0:12:01.596 --> 0:12:04.756 it's very much the same. I mean, following that guy 0:12:05.036 --> 0:12:08.516 I saw in the coffee shop. It was just my life, 0:12:09.156 --> 0:12:11.596 you know. I mean I would fall asleep playing the 0:12:11.636 --> 0:12:13.716 guitar and the guitars on my chest, and I would 0:12:13.756 --> 0:12:16.156 wake up and I'd go on playing. You know, I 0:12:16.196 --> 0:12:19.276 didn't even didn't even move. It was just it was 0:12:19.316 --> 0:12:21.716 all I did. I was immersed. Then I get in 0:12:21.796 --> 0:12:24.596 the project, and I was pretty much immersed in this 0:12:24.636 --> 0:12:26.436 project while we were working on it. You know, I 0:12:26.476 --> 0:12:29.076 didn't really think about much else. I just wanted to 0:12:29.436 --> 0:12:32.236 put these drawings in the right place and categorize them 0:12:32.276 --> 0:12:33.196 and put them in a book. 0:12:33.676 --> 0:12:37.396 The drawings that are in the book, when did these happen? 0:12:37.476 --> 0:12:38.956 Are these older drawings newer? 0:12:39.796 --> 0:12:42.236 They went from maybe ten or twelve years ago up 0:12:42.316 --> 0:12:45.196 until now. And that's how come I'd find they made 0:12:45.236 --> 0:12:47.956 little bunches around the house. And I have found more 0:12:48.076 --> 0:12:50.196 since the book. You know, if I was little stash 0:12:50.956 --> 0:12:53.036 with a rubber band about, I think, oh goodie. You 0:12:53.076 --> 0:12:56.556 know some other insanity, and it is. 0:13:01.556 --> 0:13:05.436 Do you find Catharsis in the emotion of the drawings, 0:13:05.556 --> 0:13:07.996 or do you find emotion I guess in. 0:13:07.996 --> 0:13:12.556 The Yeah, you know, sometimes I've cried the ones of 0:13:12.636 --> 0:13:16.316 the animals, you know, and that old horse is being 0:13:16.356 --> 0:13:19.116 pushed along and the guy is saying, you know, come on, 0:13:19.636 --> 0:13:24.196 life is long, but you're you know, he's empathetic with 0:13:24.236 --> 0:13:26.916 the horse, and the horse looks tired, and for me, 0:13:26.956 --> 0:13:30.156 it brings up, you know, every awful movie that's had 0:13:30.956 --> 0:13:35.196 horses hurt in it. So I get very moved by 0:13:35.196 --> 0:13:38.476 this stuff. But I can't pretend that it's myself who 0:13:38.476 --> 0:13:40.996 invented it. It's coming from somewhere else. So I can 0:13:41.076 --> 0:13:43.316 say that this is how it made me feel or 0:13:43.876 --> 0:13:45.716 you know, happy or sad or deep? 0:13:45.836 --> 0:13:50.276 Or do you cry often? Would you say? Just in life? 0:13:50.356 --> 0:13:51.076 Are you a crier? 0:13:51.636 --> 0:13:56.876 Oh? Not particularly? I probably was when I was younger. 0:13:57.676 --> 0:14:00.476 Yeah, so there is something about the quiet moments of 0:14:01.796 --> 0:14:04.236 turning a piece of paper upside down. 0:14:04.036 --> 0:14:10.836 And doesn't everybody, no, you know, my fon other scientists, 0:14:11.036 --> 0:14:16.876 very academic, you know, professorial, and he couldn't figure this out. 0:14:17.196 --> 0:14:20.716 He said, but I don't understand, And I said, you 0:14:20.756 --> 0:14:23.836 probably shouldn't try. He said, but what are you doing? 0:14:23.876 --> 0:14:27.556 And how does that work? You know, I said, Papa, 0:14:27.756 --> 0:14:30.276 just you know, try it, try it. I took him 0:14:30.276 --> 0:14:32.276 one time to one of those places where you paint 0:14:32.316 --> 0:14:36.996 them pottery, do your own. He reluctantly came with me. 0:14:37.076 --> 0:14:38.596 I said, come on, you do one of these. Oh 0:14:38.636 --> 0:14:40.116 I don't know how. I said, you don't have to 0:14:40.156 --> 0:14:43.076 know how. You got a nice, big bull like that, 0:14:43.396 --> 0:14:45.436 got a bunch of colors, and he was going like, 0:14:45.516 --> 0:14:48.556 he said, oh, I hate it. Oh it's awful. This 0:14:48.716 --> 0:14:53.556 looks horrible. I said, Papa's is wonderful. But he couldn't 0:14:53.556 --> 0:14:56.116 explain it. So it was he was having hard time 0:14:56.156 --> 0:14:56.996 with it. 0:14:57.116 --> 0:14:59.316 Was he sort of the odd person out in the family, 0:14:59.556 --> 0:15:01.236 it feels, I mean, you and your sister clearly had 0:15:01.236 --> 0:15:02.436 an artistic sensibility. 0:15:02.596 --> 0:15:03.756 Seems like your mother. 0:15:03.636 --> 0:15:06.556 Guy, Yeah, I mean he has three daughters and a 0:15:06.596 --> 0:15:11.516 wife who had no left nothing there, nothing, not even 0:15:11.596 --> 0:15:15.716 a little p shape thing. And he my father's passionate 0:15:15.756 --> 0:15:19.716 about standing waves, and he would talk about all the time. 0:15:19.716 --> 0:15:22.276 We didn't know what he was talking about. And a 0:15:22.316 --> 0:15:25.356 bunch of family went to one of his speeches and 0:15:25.396 --> 0:15:27.996 he thought, you know, support him, and he started talking 0:15:27.996 --> 0:15:31.316 about standing waves and he says, can anybody here tell 0:15:31.316 --> 0:15:33.636 me what a standing wave is? And my aunt got 0:15:33.676 --> 0:15:40.876 up and went like this, if that explains anything. 0:15:43.076 --> 0:15:45.676 To this day, do we know what standing waves are? 0:15:46.876 --> 0:15:47.436 Not? Really? 0:15:49.036 --> 0:15:51.476 I guess I'll look that one up. I would love 0:15:51.516 --> 0:15:54.316 to go to the image. I think it's Image five. 0:15:56.196 --> 0:16:01.716 She's pregnant and he is not the dad who got 0:16:01.716 --> 0:16:05.156 her pregnant. He's trying to say, you don't worry, honey, 0:16:05.276 --> 0:16:08.356 I understand, let me tell your mom, which might mean 0:16:08.476 --> 0:16:11.036 we're not going to say anything and I'll protect you 0:16:11.076 --> 0:16:13.476 from that, or it means let me break that to 0:16:13.596 --> 0:16:18.436 your mom. I think that's what that's about. And it's 0:16:18.476 --> 0:16:22.076 just very, very emotional. 0:16:22.836 --> 0:16:26.636 These works are are highly emotional. 0:16:27.796 --> 0:16:30.476 I've been you can call them works. I love that 0:16:31.716 --> 0:16:32.956 sounds so official, isn't it. 0:16:34.236 --> 0:16:41.036 Piece you are, You're Joan Bias. Your life is in 0:16:41.116 --> 0:16:42.476 your existence. 0:16:42.036 --> 0:16:44.716 And it wasn't this stuff though it was your work. 0:16:44.836 --> 0:16:47.916 I love that you know these I mean, you're you're 0:16:48.036 --> 0:16:50.316 very self deprecating, and I can appreciate that about you. 0:16:50.436 --> 0:16:54.076 I was reading something about your documentary and in it 0:16:54.116 --> 0:16:56.836 you say that the only great song you wrote not 0:16:56.916 --> 0:16:59.516 in the documentary, but in this little piece about the documentary, 0:16:59.516 --> 0:17:01.996 you tell the interviewer the only great song you ever 0:17:01.996 --> 0:17:06.356 wrote was Diamonds and Rust, which it's a great. 0:17:06.116 --> 0:17:07.276 Song, but that's not true. 0:17:07.916 --> 0:17:08.756 It's not true. 0:17:08.796 --> 0:17:10.756 I mean, it is a great song, but it's not true, 0:17:10.916 --> 0:17:13.396 you know, I mean thank you David's song. 0:17:14.436 --> 0:17:17.396 I mean, yeah, you know. That only means that I 0:17:17.436 --> 0:17:21.036 think only one of my songs has a universality that 0:17:21.156 --> 0:17:25.916 it's it just catches in a different way and it's 0:17:25.956 --> 0:17:28.636 bigger than itself. No, I think I've written a lot 0:17:28.636 --> 0:17:31.676 of good songs, but I do think that one's head 0:17:31.676 --> 0:17:35.756 and shoulders. Suppose the one's under it? What do I know? 0:17:37.796 --> 0:17:39.996 And that has to do with how you perceive people 0:17:40.276 --> 0:17:41.356 interact with the song. 0:17:41.676 --> 0:17:42.676 I guess probably you're right. 0:17:42.756 --> 0:17:46.636 Yeah, yeah, there's other songs. I mean, you've written so 0:17:46.756 --> 0:17:47.756 many gorgeous songs. 0:17:47.956 --> 0:17:48.436 Thank you. 0:17:48.676 --> 0:17:52.716 I really I almost wish you had written more gorgeous songs, 0:17:53.036 --> 0:17:55.276 or more songs in general that would then be gorgeous. 0:17:55.316 --> 0:18:01.156 You know, they picked the right guy. 0:18:01.356 --> 0:18:04.396 Hard questions are coming, it's just bettering. Yeah, okay, but 0:18:04.556 --> 0:18:07.556 your documentary. I'm just wondering about this period of your 0:18:07.556 --> 0:18:12.476 life post touring. You've wrapped up that part of your life, 0:18:12.676 --> 0:18:14.756 which was many decades long. 0:18:15.956 --> 0:18:18.556 You were barely a spark in your mother's eyes. 0:18:20.956 --> 0:18:30.156 Neither my parents were born life. Now she's not gonna 0:18:30.236 --> 0:18:37.916 like me go back to butter in you this part 0:18:37.956 --> 0:18:42.156 of your life though, post touring, where has it left 0:18:42.236 --> 0:18:48.996 you with? Processing both your life the things that have happened. 0:18:49.436 --> 0:18:52.876 And there's a documentary that you made with some friends 0:18:53.836 --> 0:18:58.396 that would be coming out that sounds incredibly personal. 0:18:59.596 --> 0:19:02.796 It is it is, and I sort of figure out 0:19:03.556 --> 0:19:07.276 I haven't got anything to lose, really seriously, and my 0:19:07.396 --> 0:19:10.476 family is all gone. Anybody who could have been hurt 0:19:10.636 --> 0:19:15.476 or confused or whatever. I didn't do that while they 0:19:15.476 --> 0:19:20.196 were alive. And it's very personal. And the women who 0:19:20.916 --> 0:19:23.476 directed it, one of them is a very close friend. 0:19:23.876 --> 0:19:26.476 And that's why it was possible, because I just held 0:19:26.476 --> 0:19:28.596 my nose and took a deep dive and said, because 0:19:28.636 --> 0:19:31.596 I wouldn't have control, they would have control. So I 0:19:31.636 --> 0:19:34.796 had to have that faith. And the film was about 0:19:35.156 --> 0:19:37.156 the last tour. That's kind of the theme of it, 0:19:37.196 --> 0:19:40.076 the last tour. And then I cut them loose in 0:19:40.156 --> 0:19:44.076 my storage unit. I'd never been in the storage unit. 0:19:44.836 --> 0:19:48.596 I thought storage units has things like old lamps, you know, 0:19:49.036 --> 0:19:53.236 And this thing had a lifelong thing of tapes of stuff. 0:19:53.236 --> 0:19:56.156 When I was twenty two, and I would speak and 0:19:56.196 --> 0:19:58.516 send it to my parents in place of a letter 0:19:59.396 --> 0:20:03.316 and write letters. And here's me at twenty two saying, Oh, Mummy, 0:20:03.516 --> 0:20:06.036 I'm so excited because tomorrow I get to meet doctor 0:20:06.036 --> 0:20:07.996 Martin Luther King and we'll sing it this so and 0:20:08.036 --> 0:20:11.796 so Baptist. So here's these kids. So we don't have 0:20:12.196 --> 0:20:15.276 me explaining what it was like, we have you know, 0:20:15.556 --> 0:20:16.676 voice of me. Then. 0:20:17.516 --> 0:20:27.516 Yeah, there's also you've been open in the past about 0:20:28.076 --> 0:20:31.876 going to therapy, but included I've not seen it, but 0:20:31.916 --> 0:20:34.956 as I understand included, there's also you've recorded in the past. 0:20:34.996 --> 0:20:37.396 You've recorded some of your therapy sessions, and some of 0:20:37.436 --> 0:20:38.476 those tapes are in there. 0:20:38.916 --> 0:20:41.956 Yeah, those are kind of scary, But I mean I 0:20:41.996 --> 0:20:44.396 didn't see this stuff till it's done. That's what they do. 0:20:44.476 --> 0:20:46.596 They say, oh, we'll let you see towards the end. 0:20:46.796 --> 0:20:48.876 So two days before it's towards the end, you're looking 0:20:48.916 --> 0:20:52.876 to say, ah, and there's nothing I can do. So 0:20:53.036 --> 0:20:54.636 it was really just faith. 0:20:54.996 --> 0:20:58.436 You didn't sift through any of that with them. Have 0:20:58.596 --> 0:21:02.116 you since since it was screened for you, have you. 0:21:02.956 --> 0:21:04.276 Had any second thoughts? 0:21:05.076 --> 0:21:05.276 Yes? 0:21:06.676 --> 0:21:08.796 There, yes, too late. There are a couple of things. 0:21:08.836 --> 0:21:10.756 I thought, Oh, oh, I wish they hadn't put that in, 0:21:11.396 --> 0:21:14.236 but you know, I can see that it adds to 0:21:14.356 --> 0:21:15.356 the quality of the film. 0:21:16.956 --> 0:21:19.036 We'll be back with more of my conversation with Joan 0:21:19.116 --> 0:21:26.076 Biez in just a sec. We're back with my conversation 0:21:26.436 --> 0:21:31.716 with Joan Biaz. You mentioned Doctor King earlier. When did 0:21:31.756 --> 0:21:32.916 you first meet Doctor King? 0:21:33.196 --> 0:21:35.436 You know, I don't remember the first actual meeting. I 0:21:35.516 --> 0:21:39.076 remember when I saw him, which was a life changing event. 0:21:39.676 --> 0:21:43.596 And I was a gathering of high school students put 0:21:43.676 --> 0:21:46.356 on by the American Friends Service Committee, and they were 0:21:46.356 --> 0:21:48.876 from all over the country and we were discussed politics 0:21:48.956 --> 0:21:52.156 and nonviolence and that, and each year they would do 0:21:52.276 --> 0:21:54.596 this and they'd have a speaker in the year I went, 0:21:54.996 --> 0:21:58.316 so I was sixteen. It was doctor King and he 0:21:58.476 --> 0:22:01.356 was talking about I can't even say it, I'm getting tire. 0:22:01.396 --> 0:22:04.276 He was talking about the bus boycott and I started 0:22:04.316 --> 0:22:06.636 to cry and I couldn't stop because he was doing 0:22:06.756 --> 0:22:10.036 what we've been talking about and studying. And there was 0:22:10.116 --> 0:22:14.236 this guy I was twenty nine or something, twenty six. 0:22:14.316 --> 0:22:16.916 If I was sixteen, was twenty six, and he was 0:22:17.796 --> 0:22:22.116 just doing and engaged and with people and taking the risks. 0:22:22.356 --> 0:22:25.836