1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course, Trump versus Democracy. Donald Trump's 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: speeches of late are chock full of warnings about the 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: threat from within posed by his myriad opponents, those he 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: decries as vermin how to destroy the US and the 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: American dream. He routinely promises to crush his critics and 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: make America great again. As always with Trump, there's a 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: method to his madness. A history that looks back to 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: a mythologized past as the country's perfect time is a 11 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: key tool of authoritarians, notes historian Heathercox Richardson in her 12 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: new book Democracy Awakening. It allows them to characterize anyone 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: who opposes them as an enemy of the country's great destiny. 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: Richardson is a professor at Boston College specializing in the 15 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: Civil War era, and she's the author of a popular newsletter, 16 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: Letters from an American, which closely monitors and ponders Trump's 17 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: intersection with US politics. Like all forms of authoritarianism, she argues, 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: trump Ism clause at American democracy's true roots, at what 19 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: she describes as the idea that a nation can be 20 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: based not in land or religion, or race or hierarchies, 21 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:28,279 Speaker 1: but rather in the concept of human equality. Richardson joins 22 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: Crash Course today to discuss the lessons from her new book, 23 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: Democracy Awakening, which already sits happily and handily as top 24 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: bestseller lists. Welcome to the show, Heather. 25 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 2: It's such a pleasure to be here, Tim. 26 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: I'm just very stoked that you're with us today. We've 27 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: got so much to talk about, and I don't know 28 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: that we can contain it in this little narrow package 29 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: we have, but let's give it a shot. Tell me 30 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: why this book? What was the germinating kind of motive 31 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: behind this one? 32 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: This book was intended to be a series of short 33 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: essays that explained all the questions that people ask me 34 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: every single day, like how did the parties switch sides? 35 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 2: And you know, what was the Southern strategy? But I 36 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: realized pretty early on that the question people ask me 37 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: most is how did we get here? What on earth 38 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: is going on? And how do we get out of it? 39 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 2: So quickly it became thirty short chapters that take us 40 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 2: from how we got to this particular moment in the 41 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: Republican Party that gave us Donald Trump, and how Donald 42 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 2: Trump took that moment and turned it into an authoritarian movement, 43 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 2: and then finally how we get out and it actually 44 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: grew quite a bit from what I initially had intended 45 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 2: it to be. 46 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: And what do you think a historian brings to the 47 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: table that other analysts don't when taking on a project, 48 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: and the kind of questions you just brought up. 49 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: That's a really important question because a lot of people 50 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: make the mistake of thinking that I am a journalist 51 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: and I am not. I'm trained very differently than journalists are. 52 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 2: What historians do is we try to explain how societies change. 53 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: So we become very well verse in looking at actual 54 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 2: facts on the ground, looking at documents, looking at speeches, 55 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: looking at events, at things that happen and how they happen. 56 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 2: But crucially, although there's overlap there between historians and journalists, 57 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: what historians then go on to do is look at 58 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: the patterns try and say this is what is happening 59 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 2: and how it is changing society. So in this particular moment, 60 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,119 Speaker 2: there's so much coming at us all the time, which 61 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 2: by the way, is partly by design from people who 62 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: are trying to undermine our democracy. But there's so much 63 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: coming at us all the time that it's somebody like 64 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 2: me who can say, you need to pay attention to this, 65 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: maybe not so much to this, because these things show 66 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: patterns and they show how society is changing. That other 67 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 2: stuff is just noise. 68 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned that magic word patterns. I often think 69 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: that pattern recognition is one of the highest forms of insight, 70 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: whether it's in the arts or in history or in journalism. 71 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: That you know, weaving together connected events to them into 72 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: an understandable whole for your readers or your audience or whoever, 73 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: is a huge public service. It's I think an animating 74 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: force in your newsletter for sure, and it's certainly very 75 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: vibrant in this wonderful book that you've written. 76 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: Well, you can find patterns that are false. I mean, 77 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 2: that's one of the things that historians will do, is 78 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 2: we are not q you know, we are actually looking 79 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: for patterns that have establishment in history and that have 80 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 2: shown us how they play out. And that's an important 81 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 2: distinction as well. 82 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: So let's talk about that a little bit in the 83 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: context of this book, because I find it very important 84 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 1: and it's fascinating. I think one of the things in 85 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: your work, at least from my standpoint, is the development 86 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: and evolution of Republican ideology. And there's a sort of 87 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:49,239 Speaker 1: classic Lincoln era republican ideology which is very different from 88 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: republicanism today. But in your book, I think, as a 89 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: departure point, you begin with the New Deal in the 90 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, this federal response to horrors in the downturn 91 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: of a massive economic dislocation, and the very fact of 92 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: how the Roosevelt administration responded to that crisis raised a 93 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: number of threats to conservatives around how they believe the 94 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 1: world should work and what was happening to the world 95 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: they inhabited. That it set in motion a series of 96 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: responses that have led to where we are right now, 97 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: and I was wondering if you could kind of delineate 98 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: some of those for us. 99 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 2: Sure, But first let's start with the idea that the 100 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: word conservative was picked up very deliberately in nineteen thirty 101 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: seven by those people who opposed the New Deal. They 102 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: weren't embracing conservative ideology, they were using that term politically, 103 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 2: and let me explain what I mean by that. So, 104 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 2: the reason that the book starts in nineteen thirty seven. 105 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 2: Is because after FDR I reelection in nineteen thirty six, 106 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: a lot of the people who really opposed what he 107 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 2: was doing thought that he was going to flame out, 108 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: that in fact, he was an aberration, and as soon 109 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: as he was thrown out of office in nineteen thirty six, 110 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 2: we would go back to the kind of government that 111 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 2: we had had in the nineteen twenties, which is the 112 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 2: one that they liked. FDR when he took office, began 113 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 2: to use the government in an entirely new way, doing 114 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 2: what he called offering a New Deal to the American people. 115 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: That's how it gets the name it has. And that 116 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 2: New Deal was a government that worked for the people, 117 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: and it did so by regulating business, providing a basic 118 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: social safety net like social security, for example. That's when 119 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: that gets instituted, promoting infrastructures, so the Tennessee Valley Authority, 120 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 2: for example, which brings electricity, among other things, to regions 121 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 2: that had not previously had it, and that works on 122 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 2: our roads, and that works on our public installations like 123 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 2: post offices and customs houses and hospitals and railroads and schools. 124 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 2: That was all part of the New Deal. And finally 125 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: the New Deal began to protect civil rights in the States, 126 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 2: not anywhere nearly as fully as it would beginning in 127 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 2: the nineteen forties, but all of those aspects of government 128 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 2: are new to the New Deal. A number of people 129 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 2: look at that new government and they consider it anathema. 130 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: They want to go back to the nineteen twenties. And 131 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: those people are led both by Republicans who don't want 132 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: business regulation because they insist that that takes a man's 133 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: property and interferes with his ability to run his affairs 134 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: as he wishes, and Southern Democrats who are virulently racist 135 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: and want to maintain their Jim Crow systems in the 136 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 2: American South. So those two groups come together in nineteen 137 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: thirty seven and they put together a document that they 138 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,679 Speaker 2: call the Conservative Manifesto, and it says that the government 139 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: should not regulate business for the reasons I just said. 140 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: It should not provide a basic social safety net because 141 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: that belongs to the churches. It should not promote infrastructure 142 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: because that should be done by private enterprise, which can 143 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: then pocket the profits. And it certainly should not interfere 144 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 2: with civil rights. It calls for something called home rule, 145 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: which means that Southern states get to keep whatever racial 146 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: codes that they have. The Conservative Manifesto disappears really quickly 147 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: for a number of reasons, but it gets reprinted in 148 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 2: Chamber of Commerce newspapers and newspapers around the country, and 149 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: that set of principles becomes the centerpiece of a faction 150 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 2: of the Republican Party that becomes known as movement Conservatives. 151 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 2: And that's why I just drew the distinction about the 152 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: word conservative, because they are not embracing the ideals of 153 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: conservatism so much as they are a political movement. And 154 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: that political movement gradually comes to take over the Republican Party. 155 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 2: And we could walk through all the pieces of that 156 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: if you would like, But what it means is that 157 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 2: it begins to assault this idea that is shared by 158 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 2: both Republicans and Democrats after World War Two, that the 159 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 2: government should do all the things that FDR and later 160 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: Truman and Eisenhower begin to use it to do. Americans 161 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 2: like that, They've always liked that. But the movement conservatives. 162 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: Just interrupt you for just a second, right there. You know, 163 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 1: when you were talking about the development of the Conservative 164 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: Manifesto and the response to the New Deal, I recently 165 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: finished David Nassau's biography of Joseph P. Kennedy, and Kennedy 166 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: was essentially co opted by FDR to be an ambassador 167 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: to that very community. Kennedy was one of the few 168 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: sort of titans of business at the time who said, 169 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: you know, the world has changed. I consider myself a conservative, 170 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: but I also know now there's going to be a 171 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: permanent role for government in the life of the country 172 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: in a way that had existed before. And I'm ready 173 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: to sort of advocate for that. But most of the 174 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: business class he came out of, and certainly most of 175 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: the Republican Party where he had one foot in, didn't 176 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: agree with him at all around that. And that sort 177 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: of tension that began in that period that you've identified 178 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: really then gets to be this war over whether or 179 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: not the government itself is a valuable presence in American 180 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: life becomes this political football in the year that you 181 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: were about to talk about. 182 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 2: Well, and I'm happy to talk about them, but this 183 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: is a really interesting rabbit hole that you just opened up, 184 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 2: and that is that it is no accident that it 185 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: comes from somebody like Kennedy, because a lot of the 186 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: ideas behind the New Deal come from the Democratic Party. Obviously, 187 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 2: that has its roots in the urban areas in the East, 188 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 2: especially in places like New York, where local governments had 189 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: in fact been taking on these roles since the eighteen eighties. 190 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 2: And in many ways you can look at the New 191 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 2: Deal as the application of those lessons from the Gilded 192 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 2: Age in the cities to the national government. So having 193 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 2: somebody like Kennedy in there, who knew, of course, the 194 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: histories of those urban areas, had lived in those cities, 195 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 2: is a really nice bridge between that old urban machine 196 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 2: and the idea of bringing that kind of a government 197 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 2: to the national level. 198 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: So let me get you back on track again, since 199 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: I bought you to the Kennedy rabbit hole. You know, 200 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: we have this post World War two consensus, as you 201 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: noted that both the New Deal and World War two 202 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: spending had created an economy and a high tide that 203 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: lifted many boats, and there was more or less a 204 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: consensus that that kind of an economy created a broad 205 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: middle class and was good for a broad swath of 206 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: Americans who had access to the economy. But that didn't 207 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: really survive the post World War two years intact, did it. 208 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 2: It didn't, and it didn't because of the May nineteen 209 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 2: fifty four Brown Versus Board of Education decision, by which 210 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court began to defend civil rights in the States. 211 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:43,319 Speaker 2: It said that segregation in public schools was unconstitutional. And 212 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 2: with that, the next year you get the establishment of 213 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: the National Review under William F. Buckley Junior, in which 214 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 2: he vows to tell, as he says, the violated businessman's 215 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 2: side of the story. But immediately he begins to make 216 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 2: the argument and his writers begin to make the argument 217 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 2: that all along, while people had liked this large federal 218 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 2: government that was protecting their economic rights, that what was 219 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 2: really going to happen was you would start to see 220 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 2: the redistribution of wealth from white taxpayers people of wealth 221 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 2: to undeserving black Americans. And this was a trope right 222 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 2: out of Reconstruction, and it's one that they deploy really 223 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 2: effectively from nineteen fifty five on that In nineteen fifty seven, 224 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 2: of course, Eisenhower is going to send the troops to 225 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: Little Rock to integrate Little Rock Central High School. That 226 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: simply adds gasoline too the fire. By nineteen sixty you 227 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: have the rise of somebody like Arizona Senator Barry Goldwater, 228 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 2: who argues that he will take the government back to 229 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties. Sixty four, he becomes the Republican candidate 230 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 2: for president and picks up in that election his home 231 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: state of Arizona and the five deep Southern states that 232 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 2: want to maintain segregation. By sixty eight, Nixon's going to 233 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 2: have to make a decision about whether or not he's 234 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 2: going to go down that same route or try to 235 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 2: pick up the new black voters who have been empowered 236 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 2: by the Voting Rights Act of nineteen sixty five. He 237 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 2: doubles down on the Southern strategy, telling strom Thurmond of 238 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 2: South Carolina, for example, that he would not use the 239 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 2: federal government to enforce desegregation. And that line keeps on going. 240 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 2: You see Reagan picking it up with the Welfare Queen 241 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 2: and giving one of his important speeches in Philadelphia, Mississippi, 242 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 2: where three civil rights workers were murdered very famously in 243 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four. And that thread that a government that 244 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 2: works for all the American people is simply redistributing wealth 245 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 2: from white people to black people, is a form of socialism, 246 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 2: which you are still hearing today from the Republican Party, 247 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: becomes more and more and more central to that party's 248 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 2: message and becomes more and more and more exaggerated. 249 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: It also, you know, the idea that states' rights are 250 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: getting trampled at the expense of a muscular and overweening 251 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: federal government is part of this as well, and it 252 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: informs the federal ear of society. It informs this legal 253 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: push into creating a bulwark around the notion of states 254 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: rights and any other right that gets federalized, whether it's 255 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: access to reproductive rights, it's access to voting, etc. Et cetera, 256 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: et cetera, amounts to a trampling of states rights. So 257 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: in addition to everything that you've just charted here on 258 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: the political and socioeconomic side of the ledger, you get 259 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: this very powerful push on the legal side as well 260 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: to enshrine state rights as an argument against federalism. 261 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 2: Essentially, yes, and that's precisely what they are doing. They 262 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: begin to argue that these Supreme Court decisions, which by 263 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 2: the way of course, are decided under a Republican Chief 264 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 2: Justice of the Supreme Court Earl Warren had been a 265 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 2: Republican governor of California, and they are unanimous decisions. Sings 266 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: like Brown versus Board is a unanimous decision. But those 267 00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 2: decisions of the fifties, sixties, and seventies, those opponents of 268 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 2: those decisions begin to argue that this is judicial activism, 269 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 2: that is, judges are deciding something on which voters never agreed, 270 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 2: and so they begin to defend states' rights on the 271 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: idea that this is a way to return power to 272 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: the people. But of course there is within that a 273 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 2: poison pill, and that is that states also decide who 274 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 2: gets to vote. So by throwing everything back to the states, 275 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 2: you're throwing them to a body that gets to decide 276 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: who gets to vote in those states. And this was 277 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: always the problem with the concept of states rights, that 278 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 2: until you protect universal voting in the states very quickly, 279 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: what you see in the states is a few people 280 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: manipulating who gets to vote in those states and therefore 281 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: determining their outcome. And the very concept of states rights, 282 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 2: when Andrew Jackson first really began to embrace it ideologically 283 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 2: in the late eighteen twenties, was tied up in this idea, 284 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 2: and in the nineteenth century, that idea of states rights 285 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: actually gets to the point that you have people arguing 286 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 2: that the whole idea of a human enslavement is actually 287 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 2: pro democracy because voters in states have decided to enslave 288 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: their neighbors, and because they have decided to do that, 289 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: it's just fine. And you see that right throughout the 290 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: late nineteenth century. 291 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: As long as the state wants to do it and 292 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: it's residents vote for it, even if those districts sort 293 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: of been jerrymandered, it's okay. You can do anything you 294 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: want under the umbrella of states rights. And we're living 295 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: with that now. We'll explore some of that as we 296 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: go forward. All of these concepts that you and I 297 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: are talking about, politicians and people on the ground, over 298 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: time became more and more adept at exploiting them. You 299 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: began with Barry Goldwater. You mentioned Richard Nixon. You get 300 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: to Ronald Reagan. You get from Ronald Reagan, I think, 301 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: to Nuton Gingrich. You get from Nuton Gingrich to Sarah Palin. 302 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: You get from Sarah Palin to Donald Trump. And Trump 303 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: is sort of the apotheosis of all of this, because 304 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: I don't think he's probably ever read a single book 305 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: of history. He certainly hasn't read yours, But in his 306 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: sort of reptilian brain, he does have this street smart 307 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: apprehension about what moves people emotionally. He's got a salesman's 308 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: understanding of how to pluck at people's heartstrings around certain 309 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: issues and certainly around the issues that divide them. And 310 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: that's what I want to get into as we continue 311 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 1: this conversation after the break, Heather, We're back with historian 312 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: Heather Cox Richardson, and we're exploring creeping authoritarianism in American 313 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: life and politics. So, whether we've been discussing the roots 314 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 1: of our current wrestling match with authoritarianism personified by Donald Trump, 315 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: I probably gave short shrift to all of that. I 316 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: think your book gives anybody who's got the time to 317 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: read Democracy Awakening, you can explore that at greater length. 318 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: Do you want to bring us up to the president? 319 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: Because Trump is such a litmus test and sort of 320 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: the approve I think of the dangerous outcomes that come 321 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 1: from a lot of the things we've been exploring, and 322 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: you bookend, I guess I'll refer to it as round 323 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: one of the Trump era. Because Trump has had one 324 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: tour through the White House, he's positioned, it would seem, 325 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: at the time of this podcast to be setting himself 326 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 1: up possibly for a second tour, so you sort of 327 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: bookend round one of the Trump era with his election 328 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: as president November twenty sixteen, and then the insurrection he 329 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: fomented at the Capitol on January sixth, twenty twenty one. 330 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: I think it's obvious why you chose those two things. 331 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: They're vibrant and useful and disturbing. But talk to me 332 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: a little bit about how you, as a historian, think 333 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: about both of those events. 334 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: Well, let's start with something you just said, and that's 335 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 2: that Trump is a salesman. And I think it's important 336 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 2: to recognize that we would not have Donald Trump had 337 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 2: we not had the previous forty years of Republican leaders 338 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 2: dividing the nation into quite deliberately and convincing their voters 339 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: that those people who did not vote for a Republican 340 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 2: not necessarily just Democrats, but those other parties who didn't 341 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 2: vote for a Republican were people who were trying to 342 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 2: replace American capitalism with socialism. They demonized these people as 343 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 2: being increasingly anti American. And what Trump did was he 344 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,719 Speaker 2: held up a mirror to those people and said, listen, 345 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 2: I can fix the economic stuff that you don't like. 346 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 2: People forget in twenty sixteen, he was the most moderate 347 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 2: Republican in terms of economics on the debate stages. You know, 348 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: he called for fixing tax loopholes, he called for better 349 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 2: and cheaper healthcare, he called for infrastructure, he called for 350 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 2: bringing back manufacturing. But he also promised that he would 351 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 2: actually hurt those people that the Republican Party had so 352 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 2: demonized with his sexism and his racism and his an 353 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 2: attacks on a disabled reporter, and all of the ways 354 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 2: in which he seemed to body the idea of getting 355 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 2: rid of those bad people. So his election, I think 356 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 2: was a picture of a certain part of the American 357 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 2: population in that moment in twenty sixteen. And I also 358 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 2: obviously talk about the disinformation campaign that really helped him, 359 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 2: and the different pieces of that election that were unusual 360 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: because there was an attempt to disrupt American democracy from 361 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 2: places like Russia, for example. But what Trump does that 362 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 2: is so important is he takes that disaffected population and 363 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,239 Speaker 2: he turns him into a movement. And that welding of 364 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 2: those people into a movement are what gives us that 365 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: moment in twenty twenty one where his followers are willing 366 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 2: to destroy America. In order to recreate their own version 367 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: of a new kind of America in which they are 368 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: better than everybody else. 369 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: It's deeply seated cult of personality. Essentially, you start with 370 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: people sort of throwing their vote to Donald Trump. You 371 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: end with people being willing to do whatever he tells 372 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: them to do because they think, in a world full 373 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: of mixed messages on social media and countervailing facts, that 374 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: he's a lens for both authenticity and value, and therefore 375 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: if he tells them to march, they'll march. 376 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 2: Yes. But this is a place where historians are helpful 377 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 2: historians and scholars of totalitarianism or authoritarianism, because there's a 378 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: really central question there. How do people go from oh, yeah, 379 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 2: I'll cast a vote for this guy to yes, I 380 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 2: will follow him to the point that I'm going to 381 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 2: end up either dead or in prison for very long 382 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 2: periods of time. And his scholars began to study that 383 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 2: after World War II, and people like Hannah arent who 384 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: was a great theorist of totalitarianism, or Eric Hoffer, who 385 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 2: was a long shoreman in San Francisco, had a great 386 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 2: insight into what makes people follow an authoritarian and those 387 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 2: two ideas put together, I think tell us a lot 388 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 2: about Donald Trump's following. So, first of all, in twenty seventeen, 389 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 2: at the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, he 390 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 2: does something very important and just by the way it 391 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 2: changes the way he approaches the presidency. Although I don't 392 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: really talk a lot about that in the book, but 393 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 2: he gives authority to those militia movements, those far right movements, 394 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 2: those fringe movements that have been percolating through American society 395 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 2: really since at least the nineteen nineties, at least in 396 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 2: the Clinton administration and even before that. He says to them, 397 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: you are good people. You don't have to live on 398 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 2: the fringes any longer. And that matters because one of 399 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: the ways that you create a movement out of those 400 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 2: disparate fringe elements is by making them feel like they 401 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 2: are a team and that they are working with each 402 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 2: other to fight back against something. Once they have that 403 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 2: sense of unity, you can convince them to follow an 404 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: ideology that they were not necessarily that involved with to 405 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 2: begin with. They might have just been there with their 406 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: friends to throw some punches. By the time that they 407 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 2: are coming out of something like the Unite the right rally, though, 408 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: which is obviously more than throwing punches. But the idea 409 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: is the same. The ones they have come out of that, 410 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 2: they are very susceptible to a strong man taking them 411 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 2: to yet more extreme levels going forward from that. So 412 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: once they've done that, once they have started to go 413 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 2: down a violent path, a path in which they are 414 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 2: fighting people that they believe to be their enemies, there's 415 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: something interesting paradoxical that happens. And Eric Hoffer points to 416 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 2: this in his nineteen fifty one book True Believers. The 417 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 2: worse the leader behaves, the tighter they cling to him, 418 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 2: because they have become psychologically committed to the idea that 419 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 2: their enemies deserve to be treated badly. If they break 420 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: away from that, they have to admit that they were 421 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 2: the ones who were in the wrong, They were the 422 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 2: ones who deserved to be treated badly, and that's a 423 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 2: psychological leap that very few people can do. So Paradoxically, 424 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 2: once a strong man has them on the hook, the 425 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: worse he behaves, the more tightly they cling to him. 426 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 2: And my great example of this, I mean, I think 427 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: people can see it certainly with Donald Trump, but also 428 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 2: with other authoritarian leaders in the past. You know, you 429 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: think people in twenty fifteen who followed Trump could not 430 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 2: imagine themselves now following somebody who calls his opponents vermin 431 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 2: and needs to get rid of them. You can see 432 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 2: how that transgression happened in our society. But lots of 433 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 2: people have read the Harry Potter books and Narcissa in 434 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 2: that is a classic example of somebody who follows Voldemort 435 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: no matter how badly he treats her, her compatriots, and 436 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 2: her family, because she is so psychologically committed to him. 437 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 2: And I think that comparison is a good one. If 438 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: you can't see what's happening to you in the United States, 439 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 2: to see it in this fictional world, because that's exactly 440 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 2: what Eric Hoffer described. 441 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: You know. Another dynamic in this is that I think 442 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: that Trump learned his authoritarianism on the job. He was 443 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: certainly prepped to sort of glide into this moment. But 444 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: you know, I think he always wants to please who's 445 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: ever in front of him. He rode tests messages, and 446 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: then as he gets amplified responses, he doubles down on 447 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 1: those because he doesn't really care intellectually about the content 448 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: of the messages and He certainly doesn't care from a 449 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: public service standpoint, you know, whether or not he's delivering 450 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: effective policy or solutions to his voters. But he does 451 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 1: care about an emotional connection. He loves being affirmed. He 452 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 1: loves seeing people believe that he's affirming them. And I 453 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: think throughout his presidency he kept finding these moments where 454 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: he could pull more and more people in with increasingly 455 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: divisive and ugly messaging. And you know, like when you 456 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: mentioned him cultivating these small militia groups, I think they 457 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: began showing up at his rallies. I don't think he 458 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: really had knowledge and advance in the early stages of 459 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: his presidency that these crews would be rolling into his rallies, 460 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: But they showed up. He realized they were responding to 461 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: something that he was saying, and then he doubled down 462 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 1: again on that message. And what he was doubling down 463 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: on is someone's trying to steal your candy. That may 464 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 1: be a brown person from Mexico, it may be an 465 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: ambitious woman, it may be the Chinese. But there are 466 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: a lot of people out there who are trying to 467 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: take things from you. And I'm going to be your defender. 468 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to stand in the way of that. And 469 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: that's essentially the sort of scene quann of who Trump is. 470 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: And I think he has learned as authoritarianism on the job, 471 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: though he was certainly also I think morally and intellectually 472 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: craven enough to just enjoy embracing that. But that brings 473 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: me to a question I want to ask you about, 474 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,479 Speaker 1: which is why Trump. You know, we've traced this line 475 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: of Goldwater forward, but I don't think Richard Nixon or 476 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan would have been so deeply anti institutional and 477 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: so deeply unmoored as to deploy a lot of the 478 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: things Donald Trump has to just sort of wallow in 479 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: division and hatred, to have a willy nilly approach to 480 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: anti institutionalism, to publicly inveigh in such extreme and dangerous 481 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: ways against the rule of law and sitting judges and 482 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: anyone really who opposes him. You may disagree with me 483 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,239 Speaker 1: about that, but I did want to use that as 484 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: a departure point for sort of exploring why Trump and 485 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: why now? 486 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 2: So one of the words you didn't use when you 487 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 2: were describing Trump was the word power. That everything is designed, 488 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: of course for him to get approval, but also power, 489 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 2: and I think the anti institutionalism you point to is 490 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 2: crucially important, but it speaks to authoritarians, and it certainly 491 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 2: speaks to his quest for power, and that is that 492 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: one of the key ways in which an authoritarian works 493 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 2: is by cultivating those people who would not have power, 494 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 2: who would not be able to to enter an administration 495 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 2: for example, that required actual ability, that required you know, 496 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 2: lots of hard work. And the degree to which he 497 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 2: and his people are anti institutionalists, I think is in 498 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 2: part because they are not capable of running the institutions. 499 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 2: So the way that they're trying to garner power is 500 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 2: to say that they are going to tear down those institutions. 501 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 2: And for comparison, for example, think about the people that 502 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 2: President Joe Biden has put into office. They have resumes 503 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 2: as long as your arm, and some of them, Gina Ramando, 504 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 2: for example, at Commerce. You look at her CV and 505 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 2: you think she must be one hundred years old because 506 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: she has so many degrees and so many really high 507 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 2: plaudits for how much work she has done and how 508 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: good she is at it. And you compare that with 509 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 2: somebody like Chad Wolf that Trump had illegally in as 510 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 2: an acting Homeland Security secretary, you know he had no 511 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 2: qualifications at all, or Johnny mcintee for exatra. 512 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: Jared and Ivanka, the veterans of public policy and government 513 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: service exactly. 514 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 2: So, if you are not able to join a merit 515 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 2: based system, you, I think default to this idea that 516 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 2: you have something in you by virtue of being anointed 517 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 2: in some fashion by someone to do it without that 518 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 2: kind of support, institutional and intellectual support to do that. 519 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 2: And you see that, I think with a response to 520 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 2: the coronavirus crisis, where you know, Jared Kushner gets put 521 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 2: in charge and he goes out and he says, you know, 522 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 2: we know the best people. We're going to take care 523 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 2: of this without working through the systems. But then of 524 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,959 Speaker 2: course it ended up completely being a mess because they 525 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 2: didn't understand the different requirements for the hospitals, they didn't 526 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 2: understand supply chains, they didn't understand any kind of systems 527 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 2: of delivery. The whole thing just blows up in their faces. 528 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 2: And what they end up saying is, well, it's not 529 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 2: our fault that this happened. It's the deep state. And 530 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 2: that I think you're seeing again now as we're hearing 531 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 2: about ideas for a second Trump presidency, in which they 532 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 2: are already talking about finding people who pass loyalty tests 533 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,239 Speaker 2: rather than necessarily passing any tests of ability. And to 534 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 2: the degree that the Trump administration was just a complete 535 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: mess in terms of getting anything done, it's worth remembering 536 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 2: that that was when there were still people around him 537 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 2: who did know the ropes, who did understand the law, 538 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 2: and those will be gone if there is a second 539 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 2: Trump term. 540 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you reminded me that I had left 541 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: power out of the conversation, because I think one of 542 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: the truths of the Donald Trump moment is that trump 543 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: Ism will survive him whether or not he gets into 544 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: the White House again, because he's demonstrated to members of 545 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: his party and fellow travelers that trump Ism is an 546 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: effective path to power. It is a convenient and efficient 547 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: way to sort of grab power by the throat in 548 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: the US. And I think that's why Project twenty twenty five, 549 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: the Trump team's sort of playbook for what they would 550 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: institute an American life if Trump gets into office again, 551 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have to be just a Trump document. It's 552 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: a trump Ism. It's a form of trump Ism distilled, 553 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: and I was wondering what kind of longevity you think 554 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: trump Ism is going to have. 555 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 2: Well, you've identified something that is definitely out there and 556 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 2: to be concerned about. But I'm going to suggest something different. 557 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 2: I find this concept really intellectually interesting. That is, we 558 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 2: got Trump in large part because of a political theory 559 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 2: called virtual politics or political technology, and the idea was 560 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: that you could destroy democracies not with heavy handed tactics, 561 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 2: by limiting anything that people can see in the media, 562 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 2: or by overt violence, but rather by creating an information 563 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 2: sphere in which people were being fed disinformation, which is 564 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 2: different than misinformation. Misinformation is when I make a mistake 565 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,479 Speaker 2: and correct myself. Disinformation is when I am deliberately lying 566 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 2: to you. 567 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: You know. 568 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 2: Gaslighting is what we call it now. You get it 569 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 2: by throwing so much stuff at people that they become 570 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 2: apathetic and they figure they can't understand what's happening, so 571 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 2: it's fine for a strong man to take over. You 572 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,479 Speaker 2: get it by running false candidates who either switch parties 573 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 2: after they're elected, or have names similar to an opponent 574 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 2: on a ballot, so that the opponent's votes get split 575 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 2: between the real candidate and the false candidate. You get 576 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 2: it in all of these ways, and we know it works. 577 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 2: You can see it worked in places like Victor Orbon's Hungary, 578 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 2: which was a democracy and now is coming together as 579 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 2: an autocracy under Victor Orbon. You saw it where it 580 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 2: was first really articulated, not necessarily conceived, but articulated in 581 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 2: Vladimir Putin's Russia, which destroyed the concept of democracy for 582 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: the post Soviet republics, and now, of course is very 583 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 2: much strong man rule, and certainly that was the intent 584 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 2: here in the United States. In fact, some of the 585 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 2: characters are the same in the places that I've just 586 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 2: talked about. But what's interesting to me about that is 587 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 2: we know how it works, but we are just now 588 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 2: learning what happens when it doesn't manage entirely to destroy 589 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,959 Speaker 2: that democracy. That is what happens when people wake up 590 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 2: and say, hey, wait a minute, I am being manipulated here. 591 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 2: And what it seems to me we are saying is 592 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 2: that people take a number of different routes, and they 593 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 2: can take a number of roots. First of all, you 594 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: have people who are previously apathetic that were energized by 595 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 2: somebody like Trump probably dropping back and saying, ah, they're 596 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 2: all corrupt, I'm not going to play any longer. So 597 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 2: you get some people who are apathetic. You also get 598 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 2: some people who just don't care. They're going to burn 599 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 2: it all down because they can't admit they were wrong. 600 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 2: And I think we're seeing that as well with Trump. 601 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 2: But then there's another group, and they're the ones that 602 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 2: interests me and I think we are seeing nowadays in 603 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 2: the United States, and those are the people who say 604 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 2: not on my watch. I've watched people manipulate us to 605 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: give up our democracy, and I'm going to use those 606 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,479 Speaker 2: same tools that they used, social media, making sure that 607 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 2: we have accurate information, mobilizing voters, telling stories that people 608 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 2: can get behind but that are based in truth. I'm 609 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 2: going to use those same tools to take democracy back. 610 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 2: And that I think is just as real an option 611 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: as the idea that we're going to be living with 612 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 2: the poison of Donald Trump and his movement for our 613 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 2: lifetimes anyway, because we can see it in things like 614 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 2: the overturning of Father Coughlin in the nineteen thirties, who 615 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: tried to put together an anti Semitic, far right Christian 616 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 2: organization to take over American government, or Huey Long or 617 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 2: some of the other. 618 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: Authoritarians Joe McCarthy. 619 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,399 Speaker 2: Joe McCarthy, some of the other budding authoritarians who got 620 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 2: incredibly powerful until they weren't anymore. And I think that's 621 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 2: as possible as what you are describing. 622 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: I want to come back to that thought after we 623 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: take a break here, Heather, because that's a note of 624 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: optimism in a dreary, dreary landscape. So let's hear from 625 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 1: a sponsor and then we'll come right back. We're back, 626 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: and we're talking about strong men, history and threats to 627 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: the American experiment with Heather Cox Richardson. Heather, you were 628 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: just talking right at the end of our last segment 629 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: about ways in which some of the very dynamics that 630 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: have given rise to Trump and authoritarianism various strong men 631 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: around the planet these days can also be used by 632 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: people who want other forms of representation and who want 633 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: to affect positive change themselves. You call it. I think 634 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: in the end of your book you talk about reclaiming America. 635 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 1: Talk to me a little bit about that, Like, what 636 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: are the tools that you see average citizens able to 637 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,839 Speaker 1: take advantage of in an era in which power seems unfettered. 638 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: Media is a wash in disinformation. People don't trust facts, 639 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: people don't trust institutions. What is the avenue out as 640 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: you see it. 641 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 2: So the avenue out starts with where you started, which 642 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 2: is the idea of a perfect past in which our 643 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 2: American democracy sprang fully formed out of the brain of 644 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 2: George Washington, for example, is ex authoritarian with the idea 645 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 2: that we could get back to that if only we 646 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 2: elected leaders who would follow a predetermined route back to there, 647 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 2: either a route that's determined either by religion or by tradition, 648 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 2: or by some specific plan that would take us back 649 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 2: to that perfect past. And the only thing that an 650 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 2: authoritarian needs to do is to get rid of those 651 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 2: people who would stop him from doing that, with, for example, 652 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 2: these unfortunate laws that are making him unable to do that. 653 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 2: That idea of a past that is stuck back in 654 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 2: some golden era and will only require an authoritarian to 655 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 2: unearth it again is very counter to the real history 656 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 2: of the United States, which is one that I'm calling 657 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:48,280 Speaker 2: a small deed democratic history. The idea that people, ordinary people, 658 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 2: have agency, and that the world has never been perfect, 659 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 2: and that America has never been perfect. It has always 660 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 2: been burdened with sexism and racism and classism and all 661 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 2: sorts of things that made it impossible for everybody to 662 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 2: live their best life. But that in all of those circumstances, 663 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 2: ordinary Americans use their agency to change the future going forward. 664 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,919 Speaker 2: And that's something that's really important in this moment when 665 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 2: so many people feel like they don't have control over 666 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 2: the world around them, and I think that is a 667 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 2: learned lack of control because of that sort of history 668 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 2: that has been fed to so many people for so long. 669 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 2: Once they take back their agency, though, there are a 670 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 2: number of critical things that people can do. So I'm 671 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 2: an idealist, which means that I believe ideas change the world. 672 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 2: And the way you change ideas is by changing the 673 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 2: way you talk about democracy, talk about the world, and 674 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,760 Speaker 2: talk about the issues that are at stake in this moment. 675 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 2: And you can see how important it is to change 676 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 2: those ideas if you look at things like the fact 677 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 2: that Clarence Thomas re accused himself from a case involving 678 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 2: the January sixth attack on the US Capitol, which he 679 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 2: never would have done. Did he not feel that he 680 00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 2: were under pressure from people who are concerned about his ethicsandals, 681 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 2: So the idea of taking up oxygen, of changing the 682 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 2: way people talk about things is number one. There are other, 683 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 2: much more instrumental things, though, and that is the people 684 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,919 Speaker 2: who object to the authoritarian takeover of this country need 685 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 2: to contest elections at every single level to some degree. 686 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 2: And we haven't talked about the Democrats at all for 687 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 2: obvious reasons, but for a lot of people, I think 688 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 2: they have come to the place where they think that 689 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 2: just electing their president is going to be enough, and 690 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 2: the president will do magical things. In fact, it's at 691 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 2: the local and the state levels that so many of 692 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 2: the laws that affect our lives are being determined, like, 693 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 2: for example, redistricting that has led to such extreme gerrymandering 694 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,760 Speaker 2: in places like North Carolina. That happened at the state level, 695 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 2: and at the local level. Of course, you're also looking 696 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 2: at school boards and at local ordinances, things that really 697 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 2: affect people at the day to day level. 698 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 1: And state legislatures that are dominated by one party that 699 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: are no longer by cameral in any meaningful way exactly. 700 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 2: And they got there not only by people vote at 701 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 2: that level, but also by the redistricting that gave the 702 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 2: Republicans such extraordinary legs up. Just a side note here, 703 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 2: jerrymandering benefits democrats in one state in the top ten 704 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 2: of gerrymandered states, but the other nine are all republican 705 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 2: gerrymandered states, so it's really kind of a republican problem there. 706 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 2: So there are lots of things that people can do 707 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 2: to affect the future going forward. 708 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,800 Speaker 1: You note in the book that and I quote, democracies 709 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: die more often through the ballot box than at gunpoint. 710 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: So is the contra to that idea true as well, 711 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: that democracies are reinvigorated at the ballot box more than 712 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: any other form. 713 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 2: Yes, I think it is, but I would say before 714 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 2: you get to the ballot box. You know, one of 715 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 2: the things about the last section of the book that 716 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 2: I think was subtle and maybe too subtle, is that 717 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 2: each section that takes the country from its inception through 718 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,399 Speaker 2: the present looks at a different way that groups mobilized 719 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,359 Speaker 2: people to expand liberal democracy. So it looks at, you know, 720 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 2: using organizations dramatically to change the way people understand what 721 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 2: their rights are. It shows how the NAACP, for example, 722 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 2: use that organization to bring transparency to the ways in 723 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,840 Speaker 2: which laws were crushing individuals primarily in the Southern States. 724 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 2: It looks at ways in which people who did not 725 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,720 Speaker 2: have access to the vote claimed places in the United 726 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 2: States by virtue of the way that they act and 727 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 2: the books that they published. So it looks at a 728 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 2: lot of different ways that people can affect their futures 729 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:37,720 Speaker 2: in and expanding liberal democracy without limiting that simply to voting, 730 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 2: or even simply to taking up oxygen the way that 731 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 2: I've talked about. 732 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: So being as active as possible in your community, even 733 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,840 Speaker 1: if that's a micro community, organizing with local groups, voting, 734 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: paying attention and being discerning. Is that too simplistic? 735 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 2: No, I don't think it is. I mean one of 736 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 2: the things that political scientists will tell you that there 737 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,080 Speaker 2: is literally nothing you can do that's more effective to 738 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 2: change somebody's opinions about things and to change the way 739 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 2: they vote. It's something that they put a very fancy 740 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,359 Speaker 2: name on they call it relational organizing. But all it 741 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 2: means is talk to your friends, you know, make sure 742 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 2: your friends understand what's at stake when they vote, and 743 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 2: help them get to the polls. And that makes a 744 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 2: huge difference in turnout and in the makeup of the 745 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,359 Speaker 2: ultimate votes. So We see this all the way back, 746 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 2: of course, but really dramatically. The John Birch Society did 747 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 2: this in the nineteen fifties and the nineteen sixties to 748 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 2: try and turn out a right wing constituency. There's no 749 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 2: law at all that says that liberals can't do the 750 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 2: same thing. 751 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 1: You make a point in the book that the US 752 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: is built on embracing and explicitly democratic history that places 753 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: the principles of the Declaration of Independence at the forefront 754 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: of civic life. Do you see that as actually more 755 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 1: important than the Constitution? That the Constitution is a blueprint 756 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 1: of how a government should work, but the Declaration is 757 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: sort of a call for what our higher goal should be. 758 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:04,439 Speaker 1: Or am I simplifying things again? 759 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,360 Speaker 2: Well, there's a saying in history that if you have rights, 760 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 2: you stand on the Constitution, and if you want rights, 761 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 2: you stand on the Declaration. They're very different documents. One 762 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 2: sets out a set of principles to explain to the 763 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 2: world why it's an okay thing for the revolutionaries to 764 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 2: throw off the government of Great Britain, which of course 765 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,839 Speaker 2: was radical, so totally radical thing to do. But in 766 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 2: that Declaration of Independence they embrace the idea of what 767 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 2: a government of the people should look like, you know, 768 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 2: because they don't know, they're really inventing it out of 769 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 2: whole cloth. And what they say is that it is 770 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 2: possible to construct a government based on the idea that 771 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 2: all men are created equal. And of course that's exclusionary 772 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 2: in many ways, but the principle that all individuals are 773 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 2: created equal is embedded in that document. And also they 774 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 2: say that every individual has a right to a say, 775 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 2: and is government of horse is expandable as well. Those 776 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 2: principles are I think the rock solid principles on which 777 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 2: the expansion of liberal democracy ever since then has stood. 778 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,360 Speaker 2: That being said, the Constitution is the body of laws 779 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 2: that was designed to create a government for that community 780 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 2: of equals. Again very limited at the time, but it 781 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,320 Speaker 2: was a set of laws designed to bring that government 782 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 2: into existence. And as we know, of course, it was 783 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 2: a reaction in part to the Articles of Confederation, and 784 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 2: so it created a much stronger federal government than at 785 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 2: first the framers believed was necessary to have a government 786 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 2: that was based in democracy. I think that's a really 787 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 2: important distinction. Both of the documents are important, but what 788 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 2: the Constitution really does is it sets up the concept 789 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,799 Speaker 2: of a nation built on a body of laws and 790 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 2: the institutions that will support that body of laws. It 791 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 2: also sets up ways for us to amend that constitution, 792 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 2: which I think is also very important. But that machine 793 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 2: that would go of itself, as a poet later called it, 794 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 2: is I think an important basis for our democratic concepts 795 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 2: and remains vitally important in this moment when there are 796 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:21,959 Speaker 2: people who would tear it down. 797 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: Heather, I always like to ask guests what they've learned, 798 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 1: what their most recent AHAs are, and I wanted to 799 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: know what you've learned about the threat of authoritarianism in 800 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: the United States that you didn't know before embarking on 801 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:36,840 Speaker 1: the writing of this book. 802 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 2: What really threw me for an absolute loop was the 803 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 2: degree to which foreign money and the use of foreign 804 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 2: money in our democracy since the fall of the Soviet 805 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,240 Speaker 2: Union influenced what happened here in the United States. Absolutely 806 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 2: floored me. I had not been paying that much attention 807 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,399 Speaker 2: to it either here in the UK. That was earth 808 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 2: shattering to me. And also the degree to which the 809 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 2: same people who were deeply involved in the elections of 810 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 2: Richard Nixon, people like Roger Stone and Paul Maniford, and 811 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 2: Rick Gates and Lee Atwater, although he is going to 812 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:19,319 Speaker 2: die long before the present, how deeply they have been 813 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 2: involved in Republican politics since the nineteen sixties. And of 814 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 2: course we've got Paul Maniport acting briefly as Donald Trump's 815 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 2: campaign manager in twenty sixteen and bringing on board the 816 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,280 Speaker 2: whole Russian oligarchs, So that connection I was not prepared 817 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 2: to see, and it really surprised me. It really made 818 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 2: me rethink the entire way that we conceive of American democracy. 819 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 2: For what reason, Well, because the interplay I think between 820 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 2: the rise of foreign oligarchs and their need to hide 821 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 2: their money in democracies, and how that then led them 822 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,760 Speaker 2: to back political candidates who would focus on the protection 823 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,279 Speaker 2: of property rather than the expansion of the public good 824 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 2: because they didn't want to pay money to do that. 825 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:08,280 Speaker 2: Of course, that really surprised me. I was also really 826 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 2: surprised by the degree to which it seemed that the 827 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:17,400 Speaker 2: Nixon administration, when it was thwarted at manipulating elections at home, 828 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,280 Speaker 2: began to test out ways to do it in places 829 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 2: like Chile. That is, I knew the Chilean rise of Pinochet, 830 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 2: for example, but I didn't put it together with United 831 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,040 Speaker 2: States democracy to the degree that it was like they're 832 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,719 Speaker 2: testing stuff out over there to see if it will 833 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 2: work here. And what sparked that, of course, was the 834 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 2: the truck convoys that were clearly designed to hurt the 835 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 2: economy and thereby hurt democratic governments here, both in the 836 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 2: US and in Canada. That was actually one of the 837 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 2: tactics that led to Pinochet taking power, and it was 838 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 2: backed by the USCIA. And I was like, wait a minute, 839 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,280 Speaker 2: this was just like a test and probably has something 840 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 2: to do with explaining why Trump followers in twenty sixteen 841 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 2: were tish sure it celebrating Pinochet. 842 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,480 Speaker 1: We're out of time, Heather, Thank you for such a 843 00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: great conversation today. 844 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Although I hate to leave 845 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,360 Speaker 2: on the word Pinochet, so let me just end instead 846 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 2: with thank you. 847 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,279 Speaker 1: Heather Cox Frigerdson is the author of Democracy Awakening. She's 848 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,799 Speaker 1: also the author of a popular substack newsletter, Letters from 849 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: an American. You can find her on Twitter at HC 850 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:29,400 Speaker 1: Underscore Richardson Here at crash Course, we believe that collisions 851 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:34,040 Speaker 1: can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, and always instructive. In 852 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: today's Crash Course. I learned that of enough of us 853 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 1: just hold hands with our neighbors or anyone else we 854 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,160 Speaker 1: can find on the block. Maybe, just maybe we can 855 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:47,319 Speaker 1: affect some positive change in this otherwise chaotic political era. 856 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: What did you learn? We'd love to hear from you. 857 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,400 Speaker 1: You can tweet at the Bloomberg Opinion, handle at Opinion 858 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,880 Speaker 1: or me at Tim O'Brien using the hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course. 859 00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening 860 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: right now and leave us a review. It helps more 861 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,799 Speaker 1: people find the show. This episode was produced by the 862 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:12,360 Speaker 1: indispensable Anamazarakas and me. Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson, 863 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 1: and we had editing help from Stage Bauman, Jeff Grocott, 864 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 1: Mike Nitze and Christine Vanden Bilark. Blake Maples says. Our 865 00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 1: sound engineering and our original theme song was composed by 866 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 1: Luis Kara. I'm Tim O'Brien. We'll be back next week 867 00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:28,800 Speaker 1: with another Crash Course