WEBVTT - The PrEPisode 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.800 Hey, viewers, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is an explicit podcast about 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:08.119 queer sex. Filter dirty words and unfiltered descriptions of sexual activities. 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:12.360 If hearing about orgies, anonymous sex, kink, fetish, and more 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.960 offense your sensibilities, you might want to skip this Viewer 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:18.880 discretion is advised. It's definitely not for kids. 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:23.360 Put your pussy up, put your put your pussy up, 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.000 put your pussy up, put you, put your pussy up. 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:29.120 Welcome to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:30.400 I'm Gabeln Sadez and. 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.480 I'm christtison Rosso. Each week we explore the sublime world 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:35.560 of queer sex, cruising, and relationships. 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:37.680 We talked to queer folks of all kinds. We'll ask 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.600 some questions, swap sex stories, share intimate revelations, and provide 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:45.200 practical advice that you can use at home. Put joy, 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.200 put your put yo, pussy, put jo, put put your put. 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:50.159 Put your puts up. 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:53.880 So Gabe, yes, Chris, do you remember the first time 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:55.920 you heard about prop Oh? 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:58.600 Yeah, the year was nineteen fifty two. 0:00:59.400 --> 0:00:59.800 No. I. 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:04.520 One of my first jobs out of college was editing 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:08.200 for a gay porn studio. My boss was HIV positive, 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:12.240 and he told me that he had just learned that 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:14.480 PREP had been improved by the FDA in twenty twelve, 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:16.679 and he was undetectable. And he had sort of explained 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:20.960 to me what you equals you is undetectable equals untransmissible. Right. 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.240 If somebody who's HIV positive is taking their medications regularly 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:26.800 and being treated, they're undetectable and therefore they cannot transmit 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:29.480 HIV to you. And this all started because I had 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:33.560 had a hookup with someone who was HIV positive and 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:37.360 so despite the fact that it was perfectly safe for me, 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:39.600 whatever that means for you, right, I was like kind 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.080 of anxious about it. My boss he was like, oh, well, 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:43.200 you know you can get on PREP and I had 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:45.640 never heard about it. So I started like serving the 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:47.360 porn performers we would work with. I'd be like, hey, 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:47.920 are you a PREP? 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.040 Have you tried it? Like ah ah, where'd you get it? 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:51.440 About this? 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:54.040 Like I was literally every girl and they were like, yes, girl, 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:56.400 I've been on it for six months. Like it changed 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:58.680 the game. And it was so funny because at the 0:01:58.680 --> 0:01:59.800 time I was working. 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:01.960 For a bareback or condomless studio. 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.400 Usually there would be testing and you know, talent would disclose, 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.840 but often there were zero discordant couples or groups being 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:12.840 paired on camera, so they all were very aware of 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.280 what PREP was. And you know, this is also the 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:18.160 era when a lot of porn studios, folks like Michael 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:22.280 Lucas or folks like Larry Kramer, were very negative about PREP. Right, 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:24.519 this was very early days, and a lot of the 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:26.800 data that was coming out was being questioned, you know, 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.600 sometimes without reason, and a lot of these scare tactics 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:31.720 that people hold on to, and a lot of the 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:33.720 fear that people was going to hold on too from 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.000 the nineties and early two thousands still kind of impacted 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.520 the perception. So I literally, I think until the age 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.200 of sixteen or seventeen, I thought you just magically got 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:43.840 HIV if you had condomless sex with another gay man. 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:48.240 So very grateful to the porn world because they gave 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:50.560 me the education that no teacher in Florida did and 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:52.839 very few of my friends could have at the time. So, Chris, 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.160 how about you, I'm very curious when did you learn 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:59.799 about PREP and has it impacted the sort of sex 0:02:59.880 --> 0:03:01.679 ring or the sort of partners you seek out in 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:02.160 your life. 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.239 Yeah, so I didn't hear about PREP for a long time. 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.359 I am HIV positive. I have been since two thousand 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:11.360 and five. I didn't hear about it because, like, my 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.200 doctor is not gonna tell me about product because like 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:14.640 I don't. 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:16.480 I'm it's it's too late. 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:21.560 Okay, this is our Angels in America audition right now. 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:22.760 It was too late. 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:27.799 I started using Crystal method having sex round the same time, 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:32.079 and so there wasn't a lot of conversations around safer 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:35.640 sex and those spaces, and so for six years from 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:37.200 the time I started having sex, and so the time 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:39.800 I tested positive, I knew that I was engaging in 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:43.280 risky behavior and I just didn't care. I did have 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.440 a really good friend and he worked in HIV care. 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.480 So like one day he like shows up to my 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.840 apartment and he was like, we're gonna go get you 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:55.400 tested and got the results. 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:57.160 My friend immediately clocked it. 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.360 Like I was in there for a while because like 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.840 I had a compleat eat breakdown. Yeah, I remember really 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.400 feeling alone because I didn't have people. 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:11.480 The first year or so was really really, really difficult. 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:14.400 But yeah, I didn't really hear about PREP for a while. 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:17.600 Honestly, I couldn't really tell you when the first time 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:19.880 I heard about it was and what the context was 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:22.640 it might have been on an app. From the beginning, 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.359 was always very clear that like, IMHIV positive and like 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.560 if you're cool with that or you're not, I'm not 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:30.119 going to waste time. 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:32.200 Like if you're going to reject me, then to reject me. 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:35.039 There are plenty of people in New York that I 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:36.839 can fuck, and like for a while there there was 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.760 a lot of like sero sorting. You know, I was 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:42.120 only hooking up with other HIV positive people just because 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:44.320 there was like less to like worry about. 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:46.240 Wow. Yeah, And I'm sure there must have been a 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:49.080 i don't know, very difficult time to also engage with 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:52.400 trying to find sexual partners or dating partners. You still 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:55.520 got this like post nineties like scare right, everybody's like, 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.599 oh my god, but it's like pre prep right. So 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:00.560 it's like a lot of headway had been made in 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.359 terms of treatment, in terms of medication that HIV positive 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:06.920 people could take to live long, healthy lives, but it 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.360 just felt like the knowledge and the grace and the 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:14.239 accuracy was still lacking. Yeah, it is to this day. 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:16.320 I mean, and there were still people dying from its 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:19.520 related like in the early two thousands, Let's be clear, 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.280 Like people were still dying from the disease, like, and 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:24.520 that is a thing that I think a lot of 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.520 folks kind of forget. And the way that we engage 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.760 around treatment is different today than it was back then 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:34.000 to Like when I first tested positive, they didn't give 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:36.840 me medication right away. They said that your numbers were 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.480 good enough, your viral lod isn't crazy high, so we're 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:42.360 not going to put you on any medication. 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:44.000 Which is not the way that they treat the disease 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:44.599 today today. 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:47.120 Like you test positive, you're on medication immediately because we 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:48.520 want to get you to the U equals you. 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.120 Oh yeah, the word undetectable wasn't something that entered my 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.720 vocabulary until shortly before I found out about PREP. 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:54.200 Absolutely. 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.960 Yeah. It was twenty twelve when the FDA approved the 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.400 use of PREP, medication that was already being used to 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.799 keep HIV positive people undetectable as a tool to prevent 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.520 HIV transmission and serial conversions. 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:07.520 During its early year. Its prop was controversial, to say 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.080 the least, because it up ended the established approach to 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:12.880 safer sex, which prioritize condoms above all else. 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:16.040 Most of the conversations surrounding PREP has focused on its 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:17.800 impact on HIV negative. 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:19.760 People, but PREP had an impact on queers living with 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:23.080 HIV two and today we're going to have that discussion. 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:25.640 We're going to look back on thirteen years of PREP 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.839 exploring how it's changed the lives and sexual behaviors of 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.480 both HIV positive and negative people. It's time to meet 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.680 our first guest. Daniel Sanchez Torres is a San Francisco 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:40.800 based writer and editor who has covered topics like photography, literature, film, relationships, 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:42.440 HIV and pandemics. 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:44.599 He's a member of the collective What would an HIV 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.240 Doula Do? They create art, informational materials, and engage in 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.120 discussions about aspects of HIV care and community. 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:54.280 Most recently, Daniel has written a series of essays about 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:56.839 his history of cruising in the San Francisco Bay Area 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:00.400 with Everything Matters Press called Cruising with the King of Sex. 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.359 Welcome to Snippy's Cruising Confessions, The King of Sex, Daniel 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:04.239 Sinja's Daughters. 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:05.680 Hi Daniel, how are you hi? 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:05.919 Hi? 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:06.320 Hi? 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.840 I should clarify I did not give myself that title. 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.440 Somebody else gave me that title, So okay, you know 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:16.880 it's something that I sometimes claim. 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:20.240 I'm sure you're living up to the responsibility every day though, right. 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:24.000 You know, I worked very, very hard to overcompensate. 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.560 Daniel, Before we dive too deep into your title on 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:30.560 how you earned it, I would love to hear a 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.280 little bit about Ring Up near San Francisco, which has 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.240 a long history, not just as a gay hotspot, but 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:38.280 as a place where a lot of important strides were 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:41.080 made in HIV, AIDS activism and community care. 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:44.040 It's this weird thing, like I grew up in the 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:46.920 Bay Area. It's super open, it's super queer. It has 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:50.520 its history. But I also grew up like in the suburbs. 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.560 The city was thirty minutes away, so it was kind 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:55.680 of this thing of like, oh, it took me a 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.880 while to kind of find people that I wanted to 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.239 have sex with. Because I like graduated from high school, 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:03.960 I went to community college. I was kind of a 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.040 fuck boy, Like I was just kind of having a 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:09.680 good time. And when I was eighteen, I traded my 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.520 virginity for HIV, and so I was like with my 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:16.080 mom in the doctor's office and my doctor's telling me 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:20.000 that I'm HIV positive and I'm sitting there like, great, 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:22.400 my mom's in the waiting room, you're telling her. 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:23.239 Well. 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:25.960 I think that was sort of the big moment of 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:29.800 like me coming out of like if you weren't sure before, Yeah, 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:33.720 this is why I have a pretty positive confirmation that 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:35.000 I am very gay. 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:38.160 I'm wondering if I can ask what your reaction to 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:40.640 that news was, especially given that your mom was in 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:43.040 the waiting room, Like what were your first thoughts and 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:46.760 how did you and your family react to the diagnosis afterward? 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:50.160 So it was terrible timing to get HIV. I mean, 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.040 is there ever really a good time? I don't know, 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:57.439 maybe like a spring, but I ended up so converting 0:08:57.520 --> 0:08:59.880 like over over the winter holiday. So I had like 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.640 graduated from high school at all this summer, and then 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.440 I was it was like fucking around during the fall 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:09.760 and I ended up getting like hospitalized. My fever was 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:11.480 so high that they had to put like an ice 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.480 blanket on me to just like get my fever to 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:19.200 come down. So that was like super intense, And because 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.480 of the holidays, I didn't even get a chance to 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:26.200 see my doctor until the new year, so I kind 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:29.640 of had this feeling of like, oh, I was just sick. 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.920 It's fine, it'll be chill. And then when I had 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.960 like this follow up appointment with my doctor, I very 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:39.080 distinctly remember like seeing all of these plaques on the 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:42.800 wall of like achievement in HIV studies. And I sat 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.600 there looking on all these like plaques and stuff, and 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:47.800 I was like, oh, he might just be giving me 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:52.000 like a stern talking too about like my behavior. And 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:55.440 he walked in and was like, you're HIV positive, and 0:09:55.480 --> 0:10:02.480 I was like, oh shit. I still very distinctly remember 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.360 that office appointment and that being in that room and 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:08.560 like my mom was freaking out, and my mom like 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:12.199 asked the doctor like you know, like through teary eyes 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.120 and like shaking breath, like you know, is he going 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.959 to die? And the doctor looked at her and said, 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:22.000 We're all gonna die. That's just really stuck with me. 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:26.959 I have this constant like monologue in my head of like, oh, 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.000 we're all going to die, Like we're all going to die. 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:33.840 And my mortality is very much like I'm very aware 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.240 of it, and for better or worse, like it leads 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.360 me to great decisions. And that's a great decisions because 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:41.840 I'm just like fuck it, yo, know, let's go. 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.800 Yeah, I kind of wish that I had had someone 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:46.959 to tell my mom that I was HIV positive. 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.840 It's really helpful. That's my advice. If you're trying to 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:53.040 be positive, get somebody else. 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:56.240 So, like I was out of the country for like 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.400 four months, like as I was zero converting, and like 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.040 it was horrendous. I'm nineteen years old, I'm on tour. 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:05.440 I'm going to have a conversation with my parents. 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:07.560 You come back from a tour and your mom's like, 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.400 what'd you bring me in? And You're like, I got 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:14.960 you told me to have a positive experience. 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.120 She came around, but it took some time. I know, 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:24.600 a lot of conversations. She watched the AIDS epidemic happen 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:28.960 and was really terrified for what that meant for me, 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.480 Like when she got more education on the science around it. 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:33.240 Like she came around and she saw me living in 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.480 like a very full and healthy life. You know, I 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:37.319 wasn't like sick ever. 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:40.679 Daniel, you have an essay about cruising and your experiences 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.600 with HIV called Cruising with the King of Sex. Can 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.160 you tell me more about the essay and where this 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:47.400 excellent nickname came from. 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.000 Yes, the essay is really just kind of thinking about, 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.280 like my history with sex, how HIV has impacted my 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.160 relationship to sex, how I've changed as a person. I 0:11:57.240 --> 0:11:59.440 do think that sometimes I can be a great person 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:02.079 to have sex with, and it was also thinking about 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.640 like why is that? Like why did that happen? A 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.719 lot of it was overcompensating for my HIV. I think 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.800 a lot of what my headspace was at was like, 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:13.280 if I'm a risky person that have sex with, then 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.520 I'm going to do everything I can to make the 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.439 risk worth it. And I think that's part of how 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:21.520 I kind of got this title. 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.920 I'm curious if I can ask, when you cruise, when 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.600 you use the apps, when you meet new folks, how 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:30.720 do you sort of handle the disclosure question? 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:33.800 I mean, I think what's been interesting about cruising is that, 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.120 you know, I feel like the core of it and 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:39.440 kind of what makes it fun and what makes it 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:44.040 enjoyable is the anonymity. So like, I'm not having conversations 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:48.440 about my HIV with people, and that requires a little 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:52.440 bit of personal responsibility. I wasn't always comfortable with not 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.160 being so open about it, and now I'm just kind 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:57.040 of fine with it because I think it's sort of 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.520 to the point of like education and knowing about your 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.200 body and knowing about HIV and knowing about these things. 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.439 I'm the safest person that you can have sex with. 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.319 Like somebody who is HIV positive and on meds and undetectable, 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.800 They're not going to give you HIV. I find disclosure 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.360 to be like a very intimate thing, and the situations 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.320 that I have gotten into that have been complicated have 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:24.400 been sort of the hookups that are not a one 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.640 off thing. In those moments and the times that I've 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.360 had those conversations, They've always been pleasant and they've always 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.559 been fine, And I think it's mostly because they wanted 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.160 to keep having sex with me. So I think leading 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.640 with really great sex is really helpful for disclosure. 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:44.520 The way that I disclosed today is different than the 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.960 way that I disclosed fifteen years ago. I've been positive 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:51.320 for twenty years now, and the drugs have changed. The 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.120 science around you equals you has changed, right, the information 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.520 that he has has changed. So in the beginning, every 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.160 single person I came in contact with I was disclosing. 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.720 Today I have it on my apps. If someone is 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.839 like looking at my profile, it is up there. I 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.800 talk about it. I say that I'm undetectable. I'm less 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.560 likely to have that conversation in the dark room. 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:14.880 You'll hear Chris saying things in the dark room, but 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:15.560 it won't be about that. 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.559 No, Yeah, I'm usually saying actually in the dark room, 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:19.560 I get called that first singing. 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:21.960 And if you ever hear like humming that sounds like 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:24.760 someone's humming into someone else's butt, that is. 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.320 But today, like, yeah, it's just a little bit different. 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:32.400 I'm only having that disclosure conversation if I'm meeting someone 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.040 out and we decide that we're going on a date 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.200 or something in that sense, then I'm having like the 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:42.240 disclosure conversation. But outside of that, I don't think I 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.280 need to have it unless it's going to be something 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:47.480 like I'm in a romantic situation with you, and I 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:49.040 think it's important that you should know this. 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.040 We talked a lot about how PREP hasn't fundamentally changed 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.480 the way you go about your life. But I'm wondering, 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.280 if you know, since the FDA approved PREP in twenty twelve, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:14:59.640 if you've seen a difference is in the experiences that 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.520 you're with partners, when you're hooking up, when you're cruising. 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.720 I do think that PREP has really sort of taken 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.320 away the responsibility of people having a conversation about HIV 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:13.920 and about STIs in terms of like a difference. I 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:15.680 don't even know if I would call it a difference, 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:18.880 but just something that I've noticed. The people who are 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:21.400 not going to have sex with me before PREP because 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:23.560 of my HIV are not going to have sex with 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:27.360 me after PREP because of my HIV. I'm just one person, 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.440 But anecdotally, I don't really know that PREP has really 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.880 done away with stigma as much as it has done 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:37.480 away with having an opportunity to have the conversation. And 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:39.320 you know, at the same time, like I'm not trying 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.560 to have a conversation about it either, So it is 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:44.680 kind of a thing that I just sort of had 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:45.280 to accept. 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.520 I think I have to agree with you on that one, actually, 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:49.240 and I hadn't really thought about it that way until 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:51.280 you said it. But it's true, like I don't think 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:53.960 there are people who are like now that PREP exists, 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.280 or like banging down my door to fuck. 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:59.240 You know, the drug treatment is not going to magically 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.080 dissolve some stigma. If people have grown up with years 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.680 and years and years of these like incorrect, inappropriate, like 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.880 stigmatized ideas ingrained in their head, that's like community work 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:11.000 that you have to undo. 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:12.640 Right, I do want to like give space to the 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:16.640 folks who are like learning. Hey, I understand that science 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.600 is different, right, I understand that, Like the way that 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:21.840 I showed up before was really stupid. Like if they 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:24.280 approach it that way, then like I might give them 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:24.920 a pass. 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.200 It's also it's so interesting that your experiences are so 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:29.360 different than folks are on PREP. Because a lot of 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:32.200 people online, right, you hear this every now and then 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.840 it's like, oh, we're ultimately on the same drugs. It's 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.760 like we're all doing the same thing. And it's like, no, no, 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:39.520 the experiences are different. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:39.880 Right. 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.840 It's like I might be taking a certain drug for 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.000 PREP that somebody else is taking to you. 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:45.920 Know, save their lives. 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:49.280 Yeah, exactly, but that our experiences are not the same. 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:51.320 It's not that the community is not the same, even 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:52.800 though we might be taking the same drugs. 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.400 Yeah for sure. I mean the stakes are incredibly different, 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.120 you know. I think especially now, like in this moment, 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:02.360 the things that are being attacked right now are prevention methods. 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.520 So this is really sort of a negative people problem 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:06.760 that they need to kind of deal with. 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:07.240 You know. 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:09.600 I think sometimes I get this question of like, you know, 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.119 what what should we do? Like how do we approach this? 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:13.800 And it's kind of one of those things where it's 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:17.320 like I actually don't know because at this present moment, 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.080 my care is not under attack. And I think the 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.639 stakes are different too, because you know, for HIV negative people, 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:27.000 like what happens if PREP goes away? You stop having 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:30.359 sex with HIV positive people. Maybe I don't know what 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.080 happens if the care for HIV positive people goes away. 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.080 It can be a life or death situation. And so 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:40.480 even those situations, like the stakes are different. It's been 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.000 an interesting dynamic to be in this position to realize 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:47.680 that like right now, people who are on PREP, they're 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.399 the ones that are most at risk in terms of 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:53.880 getting their care taken away. And so I'm curious what 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:56.320 you guys are doing, you know, I'm curious about like 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.280 how you guys are motivating each other and what your 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:07.080 community is doing. 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.800 I'm curson about your group. What would an HIV doula do? 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:12.720 Can you talk a little bit about the group, How 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:14.560 did you get started? What work do you do? 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:16.879 So I'm in a group called What we Can HIV 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.160 Doula Do. It's a community of people joined in respond 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.520 to the ongoing AIG crisis. We really understand adula as 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.720 someone who holds space during time to the transition. We 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:29.640 really think about how HIV is a series of transitions 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:33.000 that begin long before getting tested and that continue after 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:35.960 treatment and beyond. We realized that like no one gets 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.160 HIV alone, no one should have to live with HIV alone. 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:42.080 And so that's really sort of where the group came together, 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.800 foundational to sort of what we do is really just 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:49.600 asking questions. We've made sines that we've done, exhibitions, we've 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.679 done public engagement work. It's been a great kind of 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.560 group to be a part of, and it's been honestly 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.479 kind of a mind fuck in the best way. It 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:02.280 was a very rare experience of being in a room 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:07.000 full of people and having the realization that the people 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:11.080 that I was talking to were like directly responsible for 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:13.360