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Speaker 1: Pope Leo engages Islam, but is he going far enough?

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Speaker 1: And a new Vatican document on the ordination of women emerges.

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Speaker 1: Will tell you about it on this edition of The

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Speaker 1: Prayerful Posse. Welcome to The Prayerful Posse. Be sure to

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Speaker 1: go subscribe to the show now. It's a wonderful way

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Speaker 1: to support our work totally free, or you can visit

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Speaker 1: Raymondarroyo dot com if you'd like to contribute. Let's convene

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Speaker 1: The Prayerful Posse. Canon lawyer and priest of the Archdiocese

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Speaker 1: of New York, Father Gerald Murray, an editor in chief

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Speaker 1: of The Catholic Thing dot org.

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Speaker 2: Robert Royal, gentlemen, thanks for being here.

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Speaker 1: We need to talk about Pope Leo's recent trip to

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Speaker 1: Turkey and Lebanon. It actually didn't get a lot of

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Speaker 1: coverage here in the United States. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about the implications of his references to Islam, which were

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Speaker 1: really only at arm's length. In Turkey, Leo said this

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Speaker 1: about religion and violence. We must strongly reject the use

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Speaker 1: of religion for justifying war, violence, or any form of.

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Speaker 2: Fundamentalism or fanaticism.

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Speaker 1: Instead, the paths to follow are those of fraternal encounter,

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Speaker 1: dialogue and cooperation. Father, given the context, okay, standing in

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Speaker 1: a Muslim dominated country with a history of Christian persecution, Turkey,

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Speaker 1: given what's happening in Syria and even Lebanon, where the

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Speaker 1: Pope visited Christians are being targeted there by Islamists, what

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Speaker 1: do you make of this statement?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the Pope is addressing that precisely to

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Speaker 3: those Islamists, those you know, radical jihadis who continue to

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Speaker 3: you know, wreak havoc throughout the world, particularly in Africa

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Speaker 3: the Middle East. So I think it's a very good message,

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Speaker 3: and it's you know, one of the goals of the

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Speaker 3: Holy See. And I think also of you know, Western

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Speaker 3: countries in general, is to encourage moderate Islamic countries to

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Speaker 3: red and suppress the violence that's being carried on by

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Speaker 3: the Islamic state and other groups. So I was encouraged

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Speaker 3: by those words. I think it's good and certainly that's

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Speaker 3: the way peaceful coexistence can exist where you do have

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Speaker 3: Christians and Muslims living together, such as in Lebanon.

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Speaker 1: Bob, speaking in terms of history, when we talk about

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Speaker 1: religious violence, shouldn't a distinction be made here between the crusades,

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Speaker 1: which were defensive war to protect Christian pilgrims and Jahad

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Speaker 1: as articulated in certain interpretations of Islamic theology.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, certainly we can all hope that there'll

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Speaker 4: be a reform within Islam and an encouragements or rather says,

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Speaker 4: of these more moderate elements. I mean, the best we

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Speaker 4: can do, and we disagree fundamentally, as we do with Muslims,

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Speaker 4: is to seek a way to live peacefully.

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Speaker 5: Alongside one But I'm a.

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Speaker 4: Little bit skeptical that this is going to work out

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Speaker 4: because it's kind of built into the nature of Islam

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Speaker 4: that it is militant. Muhammad himself was a leader. It

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Speaker 4: was a battle leader. There's something like forty plus battles

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Speaker 4: that he was involved in, and you know he justified them,

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Speaker 4: at least from what we can see in the Koran

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Speaker 4: and the Haditha, which are the stories about him. So look,

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Speaker 4: it's great to try to do this, but we have

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Speaker 4: to recognize, and I think Leo kind of intuits this,

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Speaker 4: we have to recognize that there is a fundamental difference

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Speaker 4: in the way that we look at things. Catholics think

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Speaker 4: of Jesus as the Prince of peace. I think that

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Speaker 4: the peace in the fundamental understanding in Islam is conquest.

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Speaker 4: Conquest either you know, by conversion or by military means. So, look,

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Speaker 4: we want to treat each other fairly, but I think

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Speaker 4: fairly and truthfully in this instance means recognizing that there's

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Speaker 4: a deep problem here. I don't believe the Church has

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Speaker 4: yet come to grips.

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Speaker 1: With what do you make of And there's a critique

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Speaker 1: this week from the Human and Religious Rights group in

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Speaker 1: Nigeria that's blaming the Vatican for its confusing narrative on

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Speaker 1: what's happening there to Christians in that country. Bob, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's dancing around the edges of this.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is something Pope Benedict did not do.

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Speaker 2: He was very forthright. Do you worry that this is

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Speaker 2: so nuanced that it has no teeth?

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Speaker 1: And then the Vatican just backs off or falls into

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Speaker 1: silence when they actually have to confront an ongoing Islamic

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Speaker 1: persecution of Christians, as is the case in Nigeria.

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Speaker 5: And not only in Nigeria.

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Speaker 4: By the way, the Jihadis have moved well, they're still

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Speaker 4: in the Middle East too, but they've also moved to

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Speaker 4: other countries in Africa.

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Speaker 5: And East Asia, etc.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, it's very interesting that inter society, that

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Speaker 4: group in Nigeria and also some of the bishops in

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Speaker 4: Nigeria have blamed Cardinal power Rolen for what has become

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Speaker 4: kind of a standard account in the Vatican, because Pope

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Speaker 4: Leo has said this as well, that well, there are

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Speaker 4: these conflicts between Islamic cow herders and Christian farmers for

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Speaker 4: land and the climate changes, but pressure on everybody, and

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Speaker 4: that this is a social conflict in an economic conflict.

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Speaker 4: There is an element of that in Nigeria, It's true,

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Speaker 4: but it's not the main show. The main show is

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Speaker 4: ten thousand, probably ten at least ten thousand Christians will

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Speaker 4: be killed in Nigeria in twenty twenty five. So you know,

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Speaker 4: you can talk about these other things. But especially when

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Speaker 4: Paroline made that statement that everyone is kind of up

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Speaker 4: in arms about it was at the time when Aid

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Speaker 4: of the Church you Need, had its annual review of

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Speaker 4: Christian persecution and martyrdom in the world, and it looked

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Speaker 4: as if he was trying to not exactly make light of,

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Speaker 4: but divert attention a little bit away from the fundamental problem,

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Speaker 4: which is a certain type of Islam that thinks it,

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Speaker 4: as it always has throughout history, thinks that it has

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Speaker 4: a right to military action against Christians.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Father.

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Speaker 1: On December one, at an ecumenical and interreligious meeting in

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Speaker 1: Beirut at Martyr Square, Pope Leo had this to say

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Speaker 1: about the relationship between Islam and Christianity. Dear friends, your

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Speaker 1: presence here today in this remarkable place, where minarets and

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Speaker 1: church bell towers stand side by side, he yet both

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Speaker 1: reached skyward, testifies to the enduring faith of this land

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Speaker 1: and the steadfast devotion of its.

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Speaker 2: People to the One God.

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Speaker 1: Here in this beloved land, May every bell toll, every atan,

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Speaker 1: every call to prayer blend into a single soaring hymn,

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Speaker 1: not only to glorify the merciful creator of heaven and Earth,

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Speaker 1: but also to lift the heartfelt prayer for the divine

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Speaker 1: gift of peace.

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Speaker 2: Now, Father, Pope Benedict.

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Speaker 1: Does I referenced a little while ago he had a

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Speaker 1: very different approach. He was quite clear about the theological distinctions.

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Speaker 1: What do you read into this language, particularly this mention

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Speaker 1: of one God? Is that just trying to blend things?

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Speaker 1: I mean, Islam explicitly denies the divinity of Jesus Christ

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Speaker 1: and the Trinity.

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Speaker 3: Right now, we have to recognize as the Islamic teaching

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Speaker 3: about the nature of God is that odds and contradicts

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Speaker 3: the Catholic and Orthodox and Protestant teaching, which is there's

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Speaker 3: one God in three persons. And you know, the minaret

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Speaker 3: and the church bell have two different purposes. They don't

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Speaker 3: bring blend to Him together to God. The minaret is

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Speaker 3: a call to faith in Islam, whereas the church bell

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Speaker 3: rings precisely to summon people to mass. In other words,

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Speaker 3: the bell of a parish church is meant to awaken

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Speaker 3: people in the morning or during the day to call

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Speaker 3: them to Mass. In fact, it's interesting because when the

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Speaker 3: Islamic conquer Islamic forces conquered Spain, they took all the

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Speaker 3: church bells out because they don't want that form of

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Speaker 3: annunciation of the Mass will be celebrated to happen. So

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Speaker 3: it's wishful thinking, it's poetic, it sounds good, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's kind of like we are the world, we all

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Speaker 3: sing together. But you know, and I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: criticize the idea that we want people who are Islamic

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Speaker 3: and Christian to pray to God, that there be peace,

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Speaker 3: but it's not going to be a piece based on

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Speaker 3: the false notion, in my opinion, that the goal of

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Speaker 3: an Islamic religious society is the same as the goal

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Speaker 3: of a Christian religious society. Two different goals. And our

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Speaker 3: goal is to preach the Gospel and hopefully people freely

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Speaker 3: accept it. The goal of Islam is to impose Sharia

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Speaker 3: law on the world, willingly or unwillingly. It's just a

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Speaker 3: different concept.

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Speaker 1: Well, I want to bring this in, Bob, And this

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Speaker 1: is again I called this episode the Popolio two step

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Speaker 1: on Islam, because on the one hand, you see him

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Speaker 1: kind of smudging this idea that we all believe in

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Speaker 1: the same God, which we clearly don't. And then on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, on November twenty eighth, earlier in his trip,

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Speaker 1: he visited the Blue Mosque and when he arrived he

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Speaker 1: removed his shoe as a sign of respect, but notably,

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Speaker 1: he declined to offer prayer there.

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Speaker 2: He said, that's okay. When they said do you want

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Speaker 2: to offer a prayer?

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Speaker 1: Your thoughts on the significance of that moment and how

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Speaker 1: do you think the Muslim world interpreted that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's a good sign. Actually, you know the.

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Speaker 4: I have friends who are theologians. Theologians who I respect

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Speaker 4: to think that we can say that we and the

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Speaker 4: Muslims worship the same God. I don't believe that that's true,

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Speaker 4: but there are people who think that, and I think

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Speaker 4: probably Popolio has been influenced by them, and by the

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Speaker 4: fact that he is kind of a public political figure

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Speaker 4: when he goes.

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Speaker 5: On a trip like this.

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Speaker 4: For me, though, if it were me and if he

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Speaker 4: had asked me to write some of those texts that

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Speaker 4: he read.

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Speaker 5: I would have preferred. And maybe this is.

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Speaker 4: A way that the Vatican can approach these questions that

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Speaker 4: you say, look, we and I especially encourage, he says,

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Speaker 4: is the pope, I especially encourage we Christians who believe

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Speaker 4: in Jesus as the Prince of peace, that we bring

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Speaker 4: that notion of Christian peace to bear in our own

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Speaker 4: hearts and in our relations with our neighbors. If we

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Speaker 4: were to do something like that, he would maintain the

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Speaker 4: Christian distinction and then at the same time reach out

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Speaker 4: to the other religions in the region. And the fact

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Speaker 4: that the Blue Mosque I thought this was very interesting.

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Speaker 4: He also did not go to Hagia Sophia which has

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Speaker 4: now been turned back into a mosque. It was a

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Speaker 4: museum under Audit Turke and for a long while, just

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Speaker 4: a little while ago, was turned back into a mosque.

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Speaker 4: I think that that just this mention of separation says, yes,

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Speaker 4: we can all try to live together, live alongside one

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Speaker 4: another and respect one another. But one of the ways

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Speaker 4: that we respect one another is respect that you are different.

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Speaker 5: Than we, that you don't.

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Speaker 4: Think that we're the same as Islam, and we are

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Speaker 4: going to just recognize that we are not the same

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Speaker 4: as you either. I mean, it's a small gesture that

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Speaker 4: he made, but it's big in another way.

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Speaker 2: Father, I can see you reacting. You wanted to add one.

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Speaker 3: No, I think that's precisely. Remember Hogy Sophia was the

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Speaker 3: great Christian church right Constantinople. So to go in there,

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Speaker 3: and I think it was a good idea not to

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Speaker 3: go in there, since it's been reclaimed as a mosque

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Speaker 3: out of Turk. The great unifier of Turkey after the

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Speaker 3: fall of the Ottoman Empire, he specifically wanted to have

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Speaker 3: secular society. Now, he did crimes against the Armenians to it.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to justify any of that that's completely wrong.

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Speaker 3: But in this regard, he didn't want to have that

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Speaker 3: cantinue as a mosque and what Christians would like you

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Speaker 3: to be restored as a church, but that's not going

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Speaker 3: to happen. That's why we can tell right now, but

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Speaker 3: not Bob's boy. I would say, I agree Bob's analysis

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Speaker 3: is on target.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's pick up on that at Turk question, because

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Speaker 1: Leo did go and pay respects to the tomb of

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Speaker 1: Ada Turk in Ankara, which frankly I had mixed emotions about.

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Speaker 2: At a Turk.

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Speaker 1: As you mentioned, he's a legendary figure in Turkish history.

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Speaker 1: He's considered the father of the Turks established the Republic

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Speaker 1: of Turkey in nineteen twenty three, but he also oversaw

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Speaker 1: the suppression of religious freedom, persecuted and the death of Christians,

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Speaker 1: and he oversaw the final disillusion of Christian communities in

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Speaker 1: Asia Minor. Why would pop Leo decide to honor at

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Speaker 1: a Turk by going to his tomb father, Well.

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Speaker 3: I think one would be a protocol thing that he's

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Speaker 3: honoring the Turkish government by honoring the founder of the

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Speaker 3: modern Turkish state. And then you can secondly say, yeah,

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Speaker 3: the cruelty and the murderous aspect of added Turk's rule

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Speaker 3: has to be seen also that he wanted to develop

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Speaker 3: a secularized society where Christians and Mosms could live in

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Speaker 3: a secular so side, Now, that's a big debate, and

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Speaker 3: that's I'll leave that aside, right, But yeah, I mean

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Speaker 3: it's debatable. If you hadn't gone, nobody would have been

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Speaker 3: upset on our side, maybe the Turks had been upset.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what Bob thinks of all that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, your reaction and as father reference, a Turkey

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Speaker 1: still denies the Armenian genocide, which you know, slaughtered untold

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Speaker 1: numbers of Christians in the early twentieth century, an event,

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Speaker 1: by the way, that drove a wedge between the two

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Speaker 1: nations ever since Pope Francis called it a genocide in

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Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. Should Popolio have taken the opportunity to do

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Speaker 1: the same.

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Speaker 4: I think Popolio actually did mention. My memory is a

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Speaker 4: little hazy about this, but I think he did mention

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Speaker 4: the Armenians, and I think the Armenian Orthodox were together

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Speaker 4: with him during one of the curse services. Yeah, I mean, look,

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Speaker 4: Turkey tried this this experiment of secularism. They've become more

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Speaker 4: more explicitly Islamist in recent years under the current regime there.

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Speaker 4: But the secularization is, you know, it's imperfect. There are

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Speaker 4: Christian churches and Christian activities around Turkey. I was in

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Speaker 4: Turkey some years ago in a Korea itself though. I

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Speaker 4: was in the Nunschatur in Ancora, and the only mass

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Speaker 4: available in Ancora was in our actual Vatican embassy in Ankorea,

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Speaker 4: in the.

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Speaker 5: Capital of Turkey.

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Speaker 4: And you know, some of the people there said, well,

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Speaker 4: you know, we love to try to have a mass outside,

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Speaker 4: but it was just impossible under the circumstances at the time.

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Speaker 4: So it's a it's a Turkey is a very interesting country.

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Speaker 4: I like the Turks. When I was there, I was

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Speaker 4: very impressed with them. They tried to reach out to

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Speaker 4: us as Christians. They were, uh, they're very respectful and

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Speaker 4: hospitable and whatnot. So look, there could be some progress

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Speaker 4: made there. Turkey is a very important, powerful country in

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Speaker 4: the Islamic world, and you know, whatever advances we can

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Speaker 4: make will really only help things. But there are limits

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Speaker 4: to what you can do with any Islamic state.

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Speaker 1: It seems to be well, and what papal visit would

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Speaker 1: be a papal visit without the plain.

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Speaker 2: Press conference on the way home.

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Speaker 1: France has made these kind of you know, standing events

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Speaker 1: that everyone anticipated. So Pope Leo has once again continued

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Speaker 1: that tradition. He touched on the subject of migration, saying

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Speaker 1: that oftentimes fears about the spread of Islam here it

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Speaker 1: comes again outside the Middle East are generated quote by

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Speaker 1: people who are against immigration and trying to keep people

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Speaker 1: out who may be from.

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Speaker 2: Another country, another religion, another race.

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Speaker 1: Father, is it fair for Leo to dismiss legitimate concerns

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Speaker 1: of citizens of country who are experiencing problems like here

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Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. We just had this Afghan national

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Speaker 1: cap two National guardsmen, killing one and hospitalizing the other.

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Speaker 3: No, and you remember in France we had the Bataclon massacre,

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Speaker 3: We had the Charlie Hebdo attack. We had the guy

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Speaker 3: who stole a big, you know, eighteen wheeler and ran

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Speaker 3: down the road along the shore in Nice, running people over. No,

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Speaker 3: there's a history here. Now, since it's religiously based violence,

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Speaker 3: it's particularly heenus because what we're facing here is a

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Speaker 3: challenge that we're not used to in the modern era,

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Speaker 3: which is a group of people claiming to represent the

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Speaker 3: faith of Islam by killing Christians, because that's the clear

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Speaker 3: goal of what they're doing. They view France as a

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Speaker 3: Christian country. They're not attacking as they're secular, as they're attackers.

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Speaker 3: They're Christian, and they want to kill Christians as a

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Speaker 3: way to force them into submission. And this is a

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Speaker 3: big problem. So the idea, for instance, Hungary and other

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Speaker 3: countries want to control access to immigration to non Christians.

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Speaker 3: This is a legitimate approach that a political entity, it's

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Speaker 3: a government representing the people. They can adopt that because

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Speaker 3: there's no right to mass immigration in Catholic teaching. And

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Speaker 3: it's quite clear if let's say Italy announced today forty

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Speaker 3: there will be placed for forty million Muslims to come

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Speaker 3: into Italy and we're going to facilitate port and airport facilities.

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Speaker 3: You can come on in now at times. Never going

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Speaker 3: to do that, so that's not But if people coming

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Speaker 3: in illegally and they stop them, well that's just another

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Speaker 3: way of them enforcing the will of the people. So

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Speaker 3: there's no problem with that. In my opinion. I wish

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Speaker 3: the poet would make a few more distinctions, because it's

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Speaker 3: when you say people are acting out of fear, what

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Speaker 3: you merely mean is they're acting irrationally. And I would say, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's not irrational, Yeah, it's facts.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Bob, we're seeing this all across Europe.

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Speaker 1: In Brussels at Christmas Market, you saw those demonstrations over

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Speaker 1: the weekend, these Muslim activists, you know, shooting off fireworks

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Speaker 1: and pushing people down there weredentivity scenes stolen from that marketplace.

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Speaker 1: I mean, even the European bishops are experiencing churches being

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Speaker 1: burned in Christians attack. So why do you think the

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Speaker 1: pope is so reluctant to speak out clearly on who

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Speaker 1: is perpetrating these attacks on his own flock.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he has it exactly backward. I don't

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Speaker 4: think that people are using Islam as an excuse to

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Speaker 4: oppose immigration. I think that they're opposing immigration because of Islam, right,

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Speaker 4: And I have to say that I think in larger

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Speaker 4: geopolitical terms, this is a loser for the Church to

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Speaker 4: continue this. I mean, certainly, we want to be humane

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Speaker 4: towards every person that we encounter. As I keep saying

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Speaker 4: that the fact that we want to respect human dignity

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Speaker 4: is not a political policy.

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Speaker 5: What it is is.

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Speaker 4: An orientation toward persons, and all that other political stuff

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Speaker 4: has to be has to be taken into account. Look

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Speaker 4: in that example of Brussels that you just mentioned, Raymond,

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Speaker 4: the Brussels City Council, as I understand it, had already

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Speaker 4: in the name of to be more inclusive, decided not

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Speaker 4: to call it a Christmas market. They decided to call

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Speaker 4: it Winter Wonderlanders say it was Winter is something or

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 2: Well, then they also created the.

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Speaker 1: New Nativity scene with no faces to try to bring

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Speaker 1: things down a notch according to the mayor.

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Speaker 5: There, Ben.

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Speaker 4: Look, this massive immigration problem also is there's a problem

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Speaker 4: here and the Church is really trying to impose what

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Speaker 4: is a populist uprising in many countries now, I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's even the case in places in Africa where immigration

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Speaker 4: becomes an internal problem and it's only going to get

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Speaker 4: worse because ESPEC. Actually, in the case of Islam. Fortunately

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Speaker 4: in America, most of our immigrants are illegals have been

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Speaker 4: a Christian, either Protestant, Evangelical or Catholic. But this clash

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Speaker 4: with islaw that we talked about earlier, this is really difficult.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you can land based country is all you want.

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Speaker 4: Was saying that they haven't integrated people. But a lot

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Speaker 4: of times these people don't want to be integrated. They

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Speaker 4: want to look live under Sharia law in their own

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Speaker 4: little enclaves, which they have a right to do in

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Speaker 4: other places, but not where the rule of law, Western

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Speaker 4: law is going to run. And by the way, just

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Speaker 4: as an assite, I also think the Church is twenty

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Speaker 4: years behind the curve on climate questions. I mean, the

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Speaker 4: Pope and others have been talking about climate driving illegal immigration.

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Speaker 5: I don't believe that that's the case now.

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Speaker 4: And even in terms of what climate people who are

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Speaker 4: studying climate questions are now saying. I mean, there's just

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Speaker 4: been a study that came out in Nature magazine which

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Speaker 4: has really turned to a very it's very authoritative, but

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Speaker 4: it's a very left wing magazine. They're saying that the

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Speaker 4: economic disruption they had previously predicted owing climate change is

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Speaker 4: not going to happen. Bill Gates is saying, look, the

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Speaker 4: human race is not going to disappear because of climate change.

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Speaker 4: So the Church, I think, has got to get with

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Speaker 4: where the realities are at this moment on both immigration

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Speaker 4: and on climate and to keep repeating these things that

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Speaker 4: were okay maybe ten or fifteen or twenty years ago.

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Speaker 4: They're a non starter, and they make the church look

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Speaker 4: like it's not engaging in snatal conversations with people that

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Speaker 4: they are allegedly supposed to be speaking.

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Speaker 2: Well, it also makes the church look foolish.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Jesus Christ came out and he pointed the

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Speaker 1: finger at Herod, he pointed the finger at the sand

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Speaker 1: Hadrian because he saw what was happening clearly, and he

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Speaker 1: articulated that for the flock. My concern is not even

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Speaker 1: that they're not keeping up with science or politics. They're

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Speaker 1: not protecting their own flock and willing to go out

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Speaker 1: and stand in the breach and say no more of this.

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Speaker 1: You are the ones attacking our people, and the world

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Speaker 1: is not going to put up with that. We certainly aren't.

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Speaker 1: But it's like there's a reticin, Oh, we're all going

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Speaker 1: to get along in the minaret and the bells are

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Speaker 1: going to ring.

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Speaker 2: I don't think so. Anyway.

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Speaker 1: Moving on some big news out of the Vatican today.

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Speaker 1: Father that study group initiated by Pope Francis back in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one to study a female Deaconate ordaining women

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Speaker 1: to the deaconate to be deacons has released its report.

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Speaker 1: It rejects the possibility. Here's what they determine. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to read this quote. The commission writes, the status question

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Speaker 1: is of historical research and theological investigation, as well as

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Speaker 1: the mutual implications, excludes the possibility of proceeding in the

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Speaker 1: direction of admitting women to the diaconate. Understood is a

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Speaker 1: degree of the sacrament of Holy Orders. In light of

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Speaker 1: sacred scripture, tradition, and ecclesiastical magisterium. This assessment is strong,

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Speaker 1: although it does not allow for a definitive judgment to

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Speaker 1: be formulated at this time, as in the case of

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Speaker 1: priestly ordination. Now, Father, does this decide the matter?

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Speaker 2: Does this end it?

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Speaker 3: It should end it, because what they're saying is that

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Speaker 3: there is no basis in history or theology for the

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Speaker 3: assertion that the Church has the ability to ordain a

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Speaker 3: woman a deacon. And it's interesting because the paragraphy quote

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Speaker 3: also has a footnote, and in the footnote it says,

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Speaker 3: we cannot see how if you ordained a woman a deacon,

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Speaker 3: you could then deny them to be ordained to the

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Speaker 3: priesthood and that is because there's only one sacrament of

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Speaker 3: Holy orders. There are not three. We have seven sacraments,

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Speaker 3: and Holy orders is one of them. So if you

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Speaker 3: ordain a woman to the diaconate, you're saying they are

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Speaker 3: capable of receiving sacred ordination and that the priesthood and

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Speaker 3: the episcope, in which are second and third degrees of

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Speaker 3: that would then be open to them. But yeah, the

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Speaker 3: reality is, and this is something I'm always insisting on.

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Speaker 3: What the Church does is based on what the Church

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Speaker 3: believes it can do, and it's never ordained women deacons.

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Speaker 3: The document also recognizes that there had been the phenomenon

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Speaker 3: of deaconesses, which were minor orders so to speak, and accommodation.

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Speaker 3: Minor orders are not sacred orders in the sense of

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Speaker 3: sacramental orders, but they were groups of women who helped

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Speaker 3: in sacramental baptisms and the like for different reasons. But

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Speaker 3: it recognized they existed, but it says they are not

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Speaker 3: the same thing historically demonstrated to be what male deacons are,

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Speaker 3: and the male deacons are the only deacons. So this

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Speaker 3: I think this document is a big success. On the

436
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 3: other hand, I have to ask a question, why are

437
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 3: we getting this now, this document there was a first

438
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 3: Deacon Female Deacon Commission, and they never reported on their

439
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 3: activities submitted to Pope Francis. People complained about it also

440
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 3: at the Second Commission. This is the work of the

441
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 3: Second Commission. Now we also know that the Senate on

442
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 3: Senidelity posed the idea that we should look at women deacons,

443
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 3: and that is one of the controversial questions given to

444
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 3: the Emerging Questions Group. Now it's called so you know,

445
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 3: maybe Bob has some insight in this, but this why

446
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 3: are we getting this now? What is this document telling us?

447
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: Well, Bob.

448
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 1: In the report, the Commission says they received because of

449
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: the sonodyl open door policy that suggested, hey, if you're

450
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 1: concerned about female diaconate or you want it right in,

451
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: submit papers to US.

452
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 2: Twenty three groups worldwide.

453
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 1: Apparently submitted documents making the case for female ordination. Despite that,

454
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: the Commission says it needs more study. But they've kind

455
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: of pronounced on this already. Does this issue really need

456
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 1: more study?

457
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 4: Well, I say only semi facetiously, that we've had two

458
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 4: thousand and two millennia of non deaconesses and maybe by

459
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 4: thirty twenty five fellows defendantly be able to pronounce on this.

460
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 4: I mean, don't I don't know what else is going

461
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 4: to change in the meantime that is supposedly you're going

462
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 4: to move in a different direction. Look, the people who

463
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 4: want deaconesses also want female priests.

464
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 2: Correct, that's never going to happen.

465
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 4: And so to keep holding out this possibility, you know,

466
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 4: further study, you know, it just invites ongoing controversy that

467
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 4: is never going to be resolved because they're not going

468
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 4: to get what they want. And I think that that

469
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 4: the people who are doing this think that somehow that

470
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 4: this is kind of a semi political way to deal

471
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 4: with it and say, you know, we're still talking with

472
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 4: people about this, but it's it only is going to

473
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 4: continue to exacerbate the people who are out there and

474
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 4: give them more trouble. It's not going to solve the

475
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 4: problem that they're obviously trying to avoid in a certain way.

476
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 4: My guess is at some point some pope is going

477
00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 4: to decide that there's some deaconess you know, status that

478
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 4: it's not going to be ordained, but it's going to

479
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 4: be a kind of a parallel to what we have

480
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 4: now with permanent deacons and that itself is not going

481
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 4: to be satisfying because it's going to be your second rate.

482
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 4: You're not actually ordained into the So look they might

483
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 4: as well just they might as well just take the

484
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 4: hit now and say, look, this has been decided.

485
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 5: It's never going to change. Sorry.

486
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 4: You know, if this really is so bad that you

487
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 4: can't remain a Catholic because of it, there's always the Anglicans.

488
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 5: Yeah.

489
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, look, there's a reason Orthodoxy and Catholicism

490
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: has never ordained a woman because you can't do it

491
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 1: historically scripturally. And I love that the document does explain

492
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 1: it that way. They also underscore Father the masculinity of Christ,

493
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: and they say this is not arbitrary, this was intentional,

494
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: and that there's something uniquely linked here between Holy Orders

495
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: and the Catholic Church and the masculinity and sex of

496
00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ.

497
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 3: No, there's no doubt, and that's actually the reality contradicts

498
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 3: ideologies that are based on you know, fanciful recreation. I mean,

499
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 3: people say, if only we could have been there at

500
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 3: the creation, we would have told God, you know, don't

501
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 3: make two sexes, make one then everybody's equal. God didn't

502
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 3: do that, and we could say, well, when you're going

503
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 3: to send your son into the world, maybe it could

504
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: be a man for fifteen years and then a female

505
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 3: for another fifteen You know, I mean, these are crazy things.

506
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 3: This is not what happened. This is not what God did.

507
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 3: This reminds me of that children's thing. This is the

508
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 3: song that never ends. It just goes on and on.

509
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 3: My friends, you know, all we hear about is we

510
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 3: got to do more study about female deacons. The reality

511
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 3: is this is all about female priests. But it's a

512
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: wedgeway to get into it. If the Pope said tomorrow

513
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 3: ordain a woman deacon, and some bishop did it, that

514
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 3: woman winn stand up and say I'm ready to be

515
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 3: a priest and no you're not. Oh yeah, well wait

516
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 3: a minute. Every other deacon become a priest. What's wrong

517
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 3: with me? This is a non starter. By the way,

518
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 3: why are we arguing about this? Really, it's about who

519
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 3: gets to run things. It's about power.

520
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: Right.

521
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 3: Is the the church essentially an organization with power? No,

522
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 3: it's an organization representing Jesus Christ and salvation. Now that's

523
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 3: the ultimate power. But it's not about who gets to

524
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 3: tell people where they can act and what they can do.

525
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 3: I'm tired of this politicization of religions. If Catholicism is

526
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 3: deficient because not everybody's happy with the arrangements. No, get

527
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 3: with the program. Jesus is the one who set this up.

528
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, take it up with God. The Lituraguy.

529
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, this is what we need, a study of the liturgy.

530
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: Wars continuing in parts of the United States despite the

531
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: passionate pleads the members of his flock. Bishop Mark Beckman

532
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: of Knoxville, Tennessee is doubling down on his decision to

533
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: ban the TLM in all parishes of his diocese, once

534
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: again relegating it to a single, non parish location, in

535
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: the case of Knoxville, a retreat center, and it's only

536
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: off once a month. Bishop Beckman father cites instructions from

537
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: the Doctrine of Faith Office in Rome, as well as

538
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: recent discussions with the Apostolic Nuncio, Cardinal Christophe Pierre, as

539
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: justification to halt the TLM.

540
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: Your thoughts on this.

541
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, this is why we hope and pray

542
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 3: that Pope Leo will deal with this. And you know,

543
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 3: I'm not in favor of these interviews all the time

544
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 3: at Castle Gandolfo. But it would be nice if someone

545
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 3: came up and said, do the people in Tennessee who

546
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 3: can't get the Latin Mass have less rights than the

547
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 3: people in England who can get it? I mean, why

548
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 3: is it that we're dealing with the situation which is

549
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 3: the ultimate clericalist dream, which is the people come with

550
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 3: supplications to their bishop and the bishop says, you can't

551
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 3: have this. And then they said, well, what the pope allowed, No,

552
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 3: you can't have it. Wait a minute, what's going on?

553
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 3: And the Pope said, the people in England they can

554
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 3: have That's what the nuncio said. So this has to

555
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 3: be dealt with, I mean at route this is again

556
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 3: part of this rebellion against Catholic history, that somehow everything

557
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: up to the New Mass is so bad that you

558
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 3: can't allow it. That is a big error has to

559
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 3: be done away with.

560
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, one hopes and praise that this extraordinary Synod

561
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: of Cardinals that the Pope has called for at the

562
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: top of the year, that this will no doubt be

563
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: part of the discussion.

564
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: I open pray it is anyway.

565
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a major issue in the church, as

566
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: is the Christian persecution and the inability I think to

567
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: voice clearly where it's coming from and what it is.

568
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: In Charlotte, Bob, the ongoing assault on the Latin mask continues.

569
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: Bishop Martin there has asked parishes to voluntarily remove the

570
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: kneelers and the option of kneeling for communion, but one

571
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: parish is taking a stand.

572
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 6: After receiving multiple petitions from parishioners regarding the removal of

573
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 6: the kneelers, we are suspending the removal until after a

574
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 6: decision is made by authority.

575
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: That's Saint Mark's Catholic Church in Charlotte, Bob. Your thoughts

576
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: on this pastor's decision. He goes on to explain the

577
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: norms for receiving communion and the option to kneel still

578
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: being in effect all over the world.

579
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 4: Well, look, it just just seems to me that Popo

580
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 4: Leo is going to have to deal with this at

581
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 4: some point because that one particular parish. It's very interesting

582
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 4: that the rule gets made that they're not going to kneel.

583
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 4: And then obviously the pastor hears from people who say,

584
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 4: wait a minute, you know, I really feel I have

585
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 4: to kneel to receive, you know, the body and Blood

586
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 4: of our Lord and rightly so as a pastor, he says, well, okay,

587
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 4: we'll we'll bring these back, but we're going to have

588
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 4: this constant you know, thresh and back and forth about

589
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 4: this unless there is some decision made about these things.

590
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 4: I don't know how you can have a bishop in

591
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 4: North Carolina who disfavors a Latin Mass, and we know

592
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 4: that the Pope just appointed a a bishop down in

593
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 4: Texas who favors the traditional Latin Mass. So are we

594
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,959
Speaker 4: going to have patchwork liturgies around places like the United States?

595
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 4: And I think even I know Father has said this

596
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 4: in the past that even allowing bishops to apply for permission,

597
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 4: that the Pope makes it clear that if you want

598
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 4: to apply for permission you can get it, that doesn't

599
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 4: solve the problem because then again, we're a church that

600
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 4: is strict about not having a Latin Mass in one

601
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 4: place and maybe is liberal about having Mass in another place.

602
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 4: I mean, you can't have a better solution for this

603
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 4: than the one that Pope Benedict gave us. That people

604
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 4: can petition, they can do it, priests can do it,

605
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 4: lay people can ask for it.

606
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 5: No one is required to do it.

607
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 4: This is it seems to me that this belongs to

608
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 4: Christian liberty, and at a time when people are struggling

609
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 4: to find a way into a deeper spirituality, why in

610
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 4: the world prevent people from doing this who are not

611
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 4: arming anyone else.

612
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 2: Well, Father, you know I harp on this almost every week.

613
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 2: Practice is doctrine.

614
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 1: And if you believe that this is the body, blood,

615
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: soul and divinity of Jesus Christ, that that's.

616
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 2: What the Eucharist is.

617
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: I mean, we all kneel as a congregation during the consecration.

618
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 2: You kneel at the lamb of God. Why wouldn't you

619
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 2: kneel to receive him?

620
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: It's a rupture in my mind with the reverence that

621
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 1: you present throughout the Mass, and that is not optional

622
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: but mandatory.

623
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 3: Well, you know, when the surveys show that more than

624
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 3: fifty percent of Catholics don't believe in transubstantiation, they don't

625
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 3: believe that the body and blood of Christ is truly present,

626
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,919
Speaker 3: you have to say to yourself, how do we remedy that? Well,

627
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 3: the traditional at Mass has a built in remedy three things.

628
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 3: Communion on the tongue, communion, kneeling, mass facing east. If

629
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 3: you did all of those three things. In the novisorder,

630
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 3: you would be teaching the people the same message that's

631
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 3: taught in the Tredentine Mass, which is that God is

632
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 3: the one who is the center of the liturgical action.

633
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 3: That's why we're turned east because Christ will consent in

634
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 3: comings from the east. We're looking forward to that. But

635
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 3: in the meantime we live on the bread of pilgrims,

636
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 3: the manna, which is the body and blood of Christ.

637
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 3: We receive it kneeling, because that's the appropriate awe. When

638
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 3: you're awed by God, you kneel. You don't want to

639
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 3: stand is there and say I'm your equal? No, I'm not.

640
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 3: And then on the tongue, because the body in blood

641
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,479
Speaker 3: of Christ is not ordinary food. Now it's the church

642
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 3: authorized re union in hand. I'm not saying it's irreverent

643
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 3: per se, but in my opinion, it's more reverent to

644
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 3: receive on the tongue because it avoids accidents. I mean,

645
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 3: we have people. This is really horrendous, and I hope

646
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 3: the bishops in the US will do something about this.

647
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 3: We have ignorant people walking away with Holy Communion at

648
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: Mass all the time, and this what does this lead to?

649
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 3: Profanation by people don't know what they're doing, who knows

650
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 3: what worse things are happening by others who have evil intent.

651
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 3: We don't need this problem. If communion is on the tongue,

652
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 3: we don't have people stealing the hosts. So I mean

653
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 3: this walking away with unawares. Yeah, the Eucharistic revival was

654
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 3: a great idea and I'm glad they did it, But

655
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 3: now we have to go the next step. How does

656
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 3: this become effective in our parishes?

657
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 5: Yeah?

658
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, and look, I agree with you.

659
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: I think it's great getting people together, getting them focused

660
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 1: in adoration and having you know, inspiring talks. But it's

661
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: the lived experience every day that tells you what it is.

662
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: If you walk in the door and your mother's in

663
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: the house and you curse at her and you come

664
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: in dressed like a slob, you're telling your mother what

665
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: you think of her.

666
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 2: I feel the same way about the eucharists.

667
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: You can't show up in your pajamas, and you can't

668
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: just grab it any way you want, or.

669
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 2: Approach the sacrament anywhere you want. It's silly.

670
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 1: A recording of a Vatican official Bob discussing an FBI

671
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: probe was leaked to the press recently. It involved Monsignor

672
00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: Jordie Bertome and he's a DDF official, a Doctrine of

673
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: Faith official, and the Vatican's commissioner overseeing the suppression of

674
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: a group. And it seems to show that the Vatican

675
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: was aware of an ongoing FBI investigation into suspected money

676
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: laundering by the group. Bob, what are we to make

677
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: of this? Is this yet another financial scandal, another mechanic

678
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: style situation where everyone knew but didn't act.

679
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 5: Well.

680
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 4: Look, it's this occurred in Latin America. We don't have

681
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 4: a great deal of detail about what actually happened there,

682
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 4: but what it looks like is that old protection of

683
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 4: bishops and people in positions of power. The Church is

684
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 4: going to handle as quietly, you know, there's no need

685
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 4: for public scandal. They talk about making financial restitution to

686
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 4: some of the people who.

687
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 5: Were harmed by the.

688
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 4: If it was money laundering, it's just at this point

689
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 4: in the history of the Church, it's just not a

690
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 4: good look at all, especially when we're talking about openness, transparency, accountability.

691
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 4: You know, it's everything that we at least in the

692
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 4: United States, we largely have moved past, and it looks

693
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:12,720
Speaker 4: like because of some of the things that are happening

694
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 4: actually in Rome in terms of tracking financial activities, it's

695
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 4: just an anomaly.

696
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 5: And you know, it's.

697
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:21,800
Speaker 4: Going to be the case that certain parts of the

698
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 4: world are not going to be up to speed about this.

699
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 4: But it's a very bad look.

700
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 1: Father, when the secular press has to break these stories.

701
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: What does it say about the Vatican's ability to police

702
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: itself and the promise transparency.

703
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, this is a very important question, transparency

704
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 3: in the administration of justice. The reason that Monsignor was

705
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 3: sent over to Peru was to investigate claims against the Sodolitzio,

706
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 3: which is a group that Pope Frances subsequently suppressed. But

707
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 3: part of the reason for the suppression with the accusation

708
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 3: that X members were making that they were doing shady

709
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 3: financial deals. And according to the story, and it's accurate

710
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 3: as far as I know, and it hasn't been denied,

711
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 3: the FBI came and interviewed somebody, I think this Monseignor

712
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 3: Jordi at the Nunciature in Lima. And then suddenly this

713
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 3: thing gets leaked. Well, who leaked it, why was it leaked?

714
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 3: And then he's talking about telling the FBI that it's

715
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 3: handled internally and the guy and we're going to make

716
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 3: some restitution. But he also we have to protect bishops

717
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 3: so no one gets harmed. It's all a cover up.

718
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 3: Now what happens in this post Francis administered justice in

719
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 3: an unusual way. Rather than using regular channels. He appointed

720
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 3: people he had confidence in, and they did these investigations

721
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 3: which weren't really according to canonical proper form. The right

722
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 3: of defense was denied members of the Solitia before it

723
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 3: was suppressed, about ten members were thrown out. They had

724
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 3: no real chance to defend themselves in the canonical forum,

725
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 3: and there was no appeal granted. You know, if you

726
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 3: give a penalty to someone, particularly in a religious matter,

727
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 3: and you don't allow them a right to appeal based

728
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 3: on maybe a faulty judgment or lack of evidence being heard,

729
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 3: that's an injustice. So and it's also troubling. I'll just

730
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 3: conclude by saying, why is it that this story's broken

731
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 3: and the Vatican has not commented on it, Because this

732
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 3: is a serious matter. If they were trying to obstruct

733
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 3: an FBI investigation in order to protect bishops in the country.

734
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 3: Why would those bishops need protection.

735
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: The Vatican just release new regulations regarding the administrative use

736
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: of Latin. Now, I think this ties into the Latin Mass,

737
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 1: but I know we have some disagreement on the panel

738
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 1: about this. But Latin is now optional in drafting official

739
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: Vatican documents. Father, what are the implications of making the

740
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: use of Latin optional and official church communications, particularly given

741
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: the assault we're.

742
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 2: Seeing on the Latin mass in parts of the church.

743
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: They did bring back something called the Latin Language Office,

744
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 1: but what does that mean?

745
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, the reality is that most business done in

746
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 3: the Vatican is done in Italian. It's not done in Latin. Now,

747
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 3: official documents, the Code of Canon Law, for instance, the

748
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 3: Catechism of the Catholic Church, the official law is in Latin.

749
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 3: The official version of the Catechism is in Latin. Similarly

750
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 3: applies to other documents. But Pope Francis was in the

751
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 3: habit of putting into the Acta, which is the register

752
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 3: or bulletin of the Vatican documents in modern languages. No

753
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,919
Speaker 3: Latin was produced. So the result is I think it's

754
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 3: just confirming a reality that's historically inevitable, which is that

755
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 3: as less and less people know Latin, it's not really

756
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 3: useful for the Holy See to continue to use it

757
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 3: on a regular basis, and therefore we should get away

758
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 3: from I think using simply Italian as the working language.

759
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 3: English should be. This is an English speaking pope, more

760
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 3: chance of that, Bob.

761
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: They're fine with Latin in administrative and official documents, but

762
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: not the liturgy. And even then it's now an option.

763
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: You know, the Latin remains the Vatican's official language. Why

764
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: is this not a good thing?

765
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 5: Well, look, I agree with Fathers with a certain extent.

766
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 4: I mean, it is clear that the working language in

767
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 4: the Vatican is Italian. Basically, I think there's going to

768
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 4: be more and more English. When the Pope went to

769
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 4: the Middle East, every presentation he made was in English

770
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 4: because it's the lingua franca. Ironically, you used to be French, right,

771
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 4: I believe that.

772
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 5: I don't know.

773
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 4: It would be actually interesting if someone would take a

774
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 4: deep dive into how documents are composed in the Vatican,

775
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 4: to begin with, because I know a guy who was

776
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 4: involved in the one that was written about capital punishment,

777
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 4: for example, and they had to look for language that

778
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 4: would allow them to say that it was inadmissible without

779
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 4: contradictoring previous ways of formulating it in the Catechism and whatnot. So,

780
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 4: you know, there are various questions about how Latin is used.

781
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 4: I actually believe, however, that important documents like encyclicals, apostolic letters, etc.

782
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 4: Need to be written, need to have an official version,

783
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 4: because we've noticed in the past the translations of the

784
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 4: documents that came out of Vatican Two, or translations of

785
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 4: encyclicals sometimes get very creative translations into modern languages. And

786
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 4: so to have an official text, and I think it

787
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,800
Speaker 4: has to be in Latin. It's the only neutral corner,

788
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 4: so to speak, to have an official text by which

789
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 4: we can measure other versions, even if they're written initially

790
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,399
Speaker 4: in French or Italian or English, whoever is the case.

791
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know that there are many texts

792
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 4: that have come out in other languages with that out

793
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 4: there being a Latin official text.

794
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 5: You know.

795
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 4: One of the things that comes to mind is during

796
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 4: World War two, Pious the Eleventh roat Brennan Deer Saga,

797
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 4: which was about the rise of Nazism in Germany in

798
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 4: German and published it in German, and it had an

799
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 4: enormous impact. It was good that he did that at

800
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 4: the time, and we need to have the modern languages,

801
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 4: but look to know what we're doing. To be Catholics

802
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 4: who understand some of the technicalities they're going to come

803
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 4: out in official church documents. There has to be an

804
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 4: official text, and I don't think that that can be

805
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 4: an English or in Italian. I think it has to

806
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 4: be in the universal language of the Church, which is Latin.

807
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 5: Yeah.

808
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: I also think when you separate father the administrative language

809
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: from the from the liturgical language, to me, it's diminishing

810
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 1: the liturgical Latin as a practice because you've taken it

811
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: out of practice in official dem at the Vatican and

812
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: it's a dead language.

813
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 3: I'll just say in response to it, Latin was taken

814
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 3: out with the Mass in England or a Mass in

815
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,439
Speaker 3: the vernacular. I remember one priest when saying, the only

816
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 3: reason you compel seminarians to learn Latin is they'd need

817
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 3: to use it to celebrate the Mass. Most of them

818
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 3: are going Tory Thomas aquinas in the original Latin, Saint

819
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 3: Augustine so and then the holy say it's a similar thing.

820
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 3: I mean, you may remember Bob in the History and

821
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 3: Brainmen of thescenods before in Pope John Paul the Second

822
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 3: and bendedict they would have a Latin language circle and

823
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 3: there was primarily bishops from the Middle East and places

824
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 3: like that because they were all trained in Latin. Once

825
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 3: they die. Remember Cardinal Ratzinger's first homily to when he

826
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 3: was elected Pope to the bishops to cardinals was in Latin.

827
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 2: Was in Latin.

828
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 5: Yeah.

829
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was his resignation which most.

830
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 3: And they couldn't understand it. So for me, the I agree.

831
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 3: I'm a complete agreement. There has to be an official

832
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 3: language which is the reference point for all translations. But

833
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 3: as a lawyer, I'm just going to say the ability

834
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 3: for people to read that is so limited now in

835
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 3: Latin that it'd be much better to be in English

836
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 3: and establish style books starting now what words are used

837
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 3: to mean what based on the Latin heritage and etc.

838
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 3: But you know right now it's a mishmash and you

839
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 3: can see it. I mean, we had these discussions with

840
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 3: different documents that came out. The French and the Italian

841
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 3: didn't match the English. In the Latin. You said, no, no, no,

842
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:21,320
Speaker 3: let's just for me. I'm an American, but I think English

843
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 3: at the working Every pilot who gets in a plane

844
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 3: has to know English. And I think basically it's getting

845
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 3: down to the point where everybody wants to participate in

846
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 3: the ongoing world dialogue that's forced it on the internet,

847
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 3: they have to know English.

848
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: Okay, well we have a disagreement. Still, I thought I

849
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: could reconcile bring healing on the way to Christmas. And

850
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: speaking of Christmas, you see the buying orgy underway, you know,

851
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 1: the merchandising and all of the heavy sales going on.

852
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: Father tell us for a moment, what advent is. There's

853
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: so many people that just rush into Christmas. What is

854
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: advent in the church? Why does the church observed the

855
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: four weeks of that event?

856
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 2: What does it mean?

857
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 3: Yeah? No, Advent gets down to the reality that the

858
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 3: Church's calendar is organized around divine intervention in history, and

859
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 3: divine intervention has occurred in the Old Testament, of course

860
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 3: with the people of Judea. But in the fullness of

861
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 3: time God sent his only son, we read in the scriptures.

862
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 3: So that's Christmas. But there's that. We just can't start

863
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 3: at Christmas. We have to prepare it. So four Sundays

864
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 3: are set aside and there's a double theme to Advent.

865
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 3: The first theme is the Second Coming. Ironically, it's the

866
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 3: same theme at the end of the year. We think

867
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 3: about the Second Coming. But because the Church is always

868
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 3: the Church is always looking east, so to speak, we're

869
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 3: always looking for when Christ returns. So we think about that.

870
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 3: And then the second half, most closer, is to celebrate

871
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 3: the birth of Christ in Bethlehem. But again for us,

872
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 3: that's the beginning really of the salvation and the dispensation

873
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 3: of the New Testament, so we prepare for it. It

874
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 3: should be a time of pen you know, I love

875
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 3: Santa Claus, the Elves, you know, Rudolph, I love the

876
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 3: you know, Candy Canes. I was a kid, a still

877
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 3: a kid at heart, but now was a priest. I realized, no,

878
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 3: we got to tell people look east, look to the Savior.

879
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 3: And when you do that, you say, Lord, I want

880
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 3: to be ready for you spiritually.

881
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 1: Bob, you've written extensively about Catholic tradition and culture.

882
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 2: What does Advent.

883
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 1: Teach us that we desperately need now, not only as Catholics,

884
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:29,959
Speaker 1: but really as as a nation.

885
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, what it teaches us is that

886
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 4: there is a there is a preparation. I mean, an

887
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 4: awful lot of people think you just jump into God's

888
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 4: arms and.

889
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 5: You know that, and that's that.

890
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 4: I mean, some of my children grew up with people

891
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 4: who are evangelicals who would tell them that, you know,

892
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 4: once you accept Jesus as your savior, that's it. You

893
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 4: can't go to hell, you go to heaven and presumably

894
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 4: everything you do is saintly after that. I actually have

895
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 4: a discipline in my house that I struggle with. I

896
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,359
Speaker 4: don't I don't allowed the tree to be put up

897
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,720
Speaker 4: and ornaments to be put up in the house until

898
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 4: Christmas Eve, which drives my wife crazy. My children cannot

899
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 4: enforce this with their grand with my grandchildren, no, they're

900
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 4: part of, you know, the culture that we're in. But

901
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 4: I like to think of us as you know, we're

902
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 4: we know that a celebration is coming, but that in

903
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 4: between time we're reflecting on what is you know, this

904
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 4: great thing that is going to happen, the greatest thing

905
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 4: that's happened in the history of the world is about

906
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 4: to take place when God comes into our world, tells

907
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 4: us about himself, and redeems us from the sin and

908
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 4: error that we've been in since the beginning of the

909
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 4: human race. So you know, if you approach Advent in

910
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 4: the right way, it's not just like a little land.

911
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 5: It actually is. I find it illuminating every year.

912
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: You know, Bob, I was going to ask everybody what

913
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: practically they could do. You would suggest, but we have

914
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 1: your suggestion. Keep the tree in storage until Christmas Eve,

915
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: if you can. Now, we had a tradition with our

916
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: family on the Feast of Saint Nicholas, which is at

917
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: the top of December, the children would put their shoes

918
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: out and they'd be a little treat there, which was

919
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: kind of a promise of what was coming, but it

920
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 1: was a way of weaving Saint Nicholas, the real Saint Nicholas,

921
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,959
Speaker 1: into the secular celebrations with Santa Claus and everything else.

922
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: And then of course after Christmas, we celebrated all the

923
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: way to Candlemas and into the You know, we're lucky

924
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: because in New Orleans we have the Carnival season, which

925
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: is on the twelfth night of Christmas, so twelfth night

926
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 1: after Christmas, so it's a big you know, it's another celebration.

927
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 1: The celebrations just keep rolling, Father, what should people do practically?

928
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 2: I'll give you the.

929
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 3: Last word, aside from moving New Orleans, which is a

930
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:47,320
Speaker 3: good idea.

931
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 1: Sometimes now that the National Guard is coming, yes, yeah,

932
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: well meet people legal legal residents.

933
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 3: But no, I would say, advent, it's a great time

934
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 3: to make a good confession. I mean, there are a

935
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:03,280
Speaker 3: lot of people out there who love Jesus, they love Catholicism,

936
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 3: but they feel that ill at ease and going to

937
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 3: confession that they don't do it that often. So I

938
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 3: would say, you know, you know, dust off your shoulders

939
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 3: and say, okay, here we go. I'm going to do

940
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 3: something I haven't done a long time. Go down there

941
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 3: and believe me, if the one thing priests like to

942
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 3: do is to help people come closer to God through

943
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 3: here in their confession, so don't she Some people say,

944
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,839
Speaker 3: oh foa, I want to impose on you. Forget that

945
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 3: you know right there. You know, if you need to

946
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 3: go to confession, that's not an imposition, that's a liberation.

947
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 3: We're happy to do it.

948
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 1: Mother Angelica used to say, you have to think early,

949
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:39,919
Speaker 1: what are you going to give the christ Child this year?

950
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 2: And her first.

951
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: Answer was always maybe you should give him your sins

952
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,919
Speaker 1: this Christmas time, So she was right in line with you,

953
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 1: go to confession.

954
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 2: We will leave it there.

955
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 1: Posse grateful to you all as always, well check in

956
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: with you again next week. If you want more of

957
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to the Arroyo Grande

958
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: Show on YouTube or the podcast wherever you get yours

959
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: on behalf of Father Gerald Murray Robert Royal. Until the

960
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,839
Speaker 1: Posse rides again, Stay the course, follow the light.

961
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 2: It's Christmas light. I'm raiming to Arroyo.

962
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 5: We'll see you next time by now.

963
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and

964
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 1: d P Studios and is available on the iHeartRadio, Apple

965
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.