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Speaker 1: In action has decimated America.

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Speaker 2: With the stroke of a pen, Texas Governor Greg Abbott

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Speaker 2: signed into law what the ACOU dubbs one of the

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Speaker 2: most radical anti immigrant bills ever passed by any state.

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Speaker 1: Simon Bill four is now law in the state of Texas.

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Speaker 2: S before creates a new state crime for a legal

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Speaker 2: entry into Texas, gives local police the power to arrest

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Speaker 2: and judges the power to remove violators.

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Speaker 1: But the problem is far more than just numbers.

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Speaker 3: Well, it sounds dramatic to say the strictest laws ever

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Speaker 3: passed by any state. Well, states aren't supposed to pass

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Speaker 3: laws about a federal issue like illegal immigration. But the

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Speaker 3: point is the federal government is doing nothing about it.

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Speaker 3: So I guess we'll try. And as we talked about

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Speaker 3: earlier in the show with Tim the lawyer, Tim Sandefer,

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Speaker 3: you know, this will probably get hung up in the courts,

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Speaker 3: but there is a chance that the Supreme Court says

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Speaker 3: the federal government is actually not addressing something they're supposed

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Speaker 3: to address, and so we'll let the states do it.

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Speaker 3: There's a possibility that could happen. By the way, something

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Speaker 3: back on December fifth, two weeks ago, twelve thousand migrants

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Speaker 3: were encountered at our border. I don't know who decided

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Speaker 3: to use this language. Migrants encountered, illegals crossed most of

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Speaker 3: the time, getting in and staying here. Twelve thousand. That

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Speaker 3: was the highest ever in a single day, a record.

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Speaker 3: Back on December fifth, two weeks later, yesterday, fourteen thousand

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Speaker 3: encountered at.

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Speaker 1: The border, a new record.

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Speaker 3: Everybody, nice job setting new records regularly for illegal immigration. Unbelievable.

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Speaker 3: As we often do whenever we're talking about this topic,

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Speaker 3: we turn to the Center for Immigration Studies in a

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Speaker 3: variety of people we've talked to over the years, and

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Speaker 3: today we're going to talk to Stephen Camarata, lead author

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Speaker 3: of a report saying the majority of immigrant households use welfare.

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Speaker 3: I would like to know more about that, Stephen, Welcome

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Speaker 3: to the Armstrong and Getty Show.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: So what can you tell us about who use it?

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Speaker 3: Because one of the arguments, well there are two arguments.

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Speaker 3: One of the arguments for closing down the borders so

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Speaker 3: that people come across and they drain our resources and

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Speaker 3: cost taxpayer money.

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Speaker 1: Taxpayers money.

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Speaker 3: Then colleges come out with these sophisticated studies and say, no,

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Speaker 3: they actually contribute to the economy more than they take.

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Speaker 3: So what have you found?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so okay, A lot of times people say different terminologies.

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Speaker 4: A couple of things. When we talk about immigrants overall

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Speaker 4: in this data, the first number, fifty four percent of

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Speaker 4: all immigrant households use one of the major welfare programs.

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Speaker 4: A lot of it is the non cash programs like

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Speaker 4: food stamps and public housing and the earned incomes tax

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Speaker 4: credit and all that sort of stuff. So when we're

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Speaker 4: talking about that, we look at the fiscal impact of

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Speaker 4: immigrants on the United States, all the taxes they pay

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Speaker 4: and all the services they use, that looks to be negative.

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Speaker 4: One of the things you have to decide though on that,

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Speaker 4: just methodologically, is what do you do with children. So

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Speaker 4: a person has a child who's enrolled in school, and

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Speaker 4: that child's on Medicaid, and that child is reskiving free lunches,

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Speaker 4: or is on the Wick program or what have you.

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Speaker 4: How do you count that since the child was born here.

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Speaker 4: If you want to make the immigrants not seen like

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Speaker 4: they're a fiscal burden, you just exclude all that and

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Speaker 4: you say none of that matters. Yes, the parent is

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Speaker 4: not able to provide for the child. So the child

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Speaker 4: technically is getting the food stamps. The child is on

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Speaker 4: Medicaid right, the child gets wick, but none of that

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Speaker 4: that's all counted for native expenses because the child was

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Speaker 4: born here. If you count the children of immigrants with

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Speaker 4: the young children, they're dependent children. If you will with

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Speaker 4: the immigrants themselves, you usually end up with a negative number.

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Speaker 4: That doesn't mean that the children will not grow up

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Speaker 4: and be at least average. That doesn't mean that, but

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Speaker 4: it means right now and for the foreseeable future, the

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Speaker 4: immigrants and their kids are net fiscal drain. Now. One

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Speaker 4: other point, if you want to go a little deeper

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Speaker 4: all just play is because we live in a society

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Speaker 4: that's unwilling to tax itself for all the things that

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Speaker 4: we want, and that we borrow so much money. That's

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Speaker 4: also another factor that consider is that the average person

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Speaker 4: is basically in fiscal deficits because we're not willing to

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Speaker 4: raise taxes to pay for all this stuff we want

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Speaker 4: to give out at the federal level, at the state

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Speaker 4: level where you have to have balanced budgets. Whenever we

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Speaker 4: do a calculation, immigrants are unambiguously a fiscal drain, paying

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Speaker 4: less than taxes than they use in services if you

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Speaker 4: count the kids. Now on the final point, the economics,

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Speaker 4: which I won't go much into, there's no question that

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Speaker 4: the US economy is hundreds of billions of dollars, actually

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Speaker 4: well more than a trillion dollars larger than it otherwise

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Speaker 4: would be because we have so many more people in

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Speaker 4: the country. Whether that is a benefit to the native

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Speaker 4: born that increases the per capita GDP in the United

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Speaker 4: States totally different questions. But there's no question more people

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Speaker 4: means a bigger economy, more economic activity, more labors, more consumers.

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Speaker 4: That doesn't mean you're richer, because if all that mattered

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Speaker 4: was the aggregate size of the economy, well then people

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Speaker 4: would say that Bangladesh is much richer than New Zealand

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Speaker 4: because it is its economy is much larger. Right, of course,

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Speaker 4: what matters is per capita. When we look at per

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Speaker 4: capita GDP or to capita income, it doesn't seem that

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Speaker 4: the native born population benefits very much from the immigrants. Ah,

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Speaker 4: but the immigrants do benefit in that sure consider.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting.

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Speaker 3: You know that was a great lesson the last few

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Speaker 3: minutes in the great Mark Twain quote of the three

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Speaker 3: kinds of lies, lies, damned lies, and statistics. I mean,

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Speaker 3: because obviously you can use a lot of those statistics

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Speaker 3: to make arguments whatever direction you want to make. But

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Speaker 3: that that's really interesting stuff, well done.

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Speaker 1: And I also think.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how much of it is when you

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Speaker 3: when you see people's reaction to immigration, And I don't

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Speaker 3: know how much you want to differentiate between legal immigration

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Speaker 3: and illegal immigration. Obviously we've got a ton of illegal

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Speaker 3: immigration going on right now. But I think people see,

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Speaker 3: you know, in their schools, you got a bunch of

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Speaker 3: people that don't speak English and their schools struggling to

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Speaker 3: deal with it. Your er is the regular hospital for

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Speaker 3: a lot of people who are here who don't have

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Speaker 3: any sort of healthcare or insurance anything like that. And clogs,

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Speaker 3: I mean, there's a lot of guming up the works

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Speaker 3: of systems that weren't designed for this. Isn't that where

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Speaker 3: a lot of people's attitudes come from? Do you think?

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Speaker 1: Sure? Sure?

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Speaker 4: I mean, people don't know the statistics. Here's what you

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Speaker 4: get again. You get fifty four percent from the Survey

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Speaker 4: of Income and Program Participation shows of immigrant households using

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Speaker 4: one or more welfare programs we estimate that it's fifty

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Speaker 4: nine percent for illegals percent for legal immigrants. Yeah, both

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Speaker 4: are very high. And the illegals can receive more receive

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Speaker 4: use more programs, but the legals can use programs to

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Speaker 4: get more benefits. So it's a little bit complicated, but

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Speaker 4: the short answer is they're both really high. Let me

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Speaker 4: tell your listeners this though, so they don't have to

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Speaker 4: leave with that. The rate for the native born is

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Speaker 4: thirty nine percent. Yes, that's right. It's extremely common in

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Speaker 4: America for the native born population. And you don't want

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Speaker 4: to know what it is in California. I mean in

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Speaker 4: California it's it's even higher. It's forty one percent for

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Speaker 4: native born households use one or more of the welfare programs.

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Speaker 4: And even if you say now, you might say, well

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Speaker 4: which programs can you exclude some and get a difference. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: you can exclude the free school lunches and breakfasts, but

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Speaker 4: you still get thirty five percent, and in California you

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Speaker 4: still get fifty three percent. For the immigrants, you still

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Speaker 4: get for the illegal immigrants you get fifty six percent,

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Speaker 4: and for the lead immigrants in California, excluding the free

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Speaker 4: school lunch program, you still get fifty three percent. No

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Speaker 4: one program drives the numbers. They're just using a lot

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Speaker 4: of programs across the board. And again, Native welfare use

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Speaker 4: is very high, and immigrants is higher still, and California

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Speaker 4: kind of is the tops. They're the most one of

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Speaker 4: the most generous states.

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Speaker 1: Now generous, I like the word generous.

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Speaker 4: Yes, they're generous.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad I'm being so generous. I didn't realize

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Speaker 1: I had a choice.

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Speaker 4: That's right, you're being generous. The other thing tor members

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Speaker 4: people said, well give but wait, how can the illegal

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Speaker 4: immigrants get so much? The short answer is, I can

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Speaker 4: run through it quick. It's the usborn children. They can

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Speaker 4: receive anything. Also, not all programs are barred, like free

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Speaker 4: school lunch and WICK. Anyone can receive those programs. Also

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Speaker 4: a number of states, including California, provide medicaid even to

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Speaker 4: illegal adults, and of course all their usborn children could

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Speaker 4: get it. And there are other states that provide the

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Speaker 4: food stamps. Also, because we give out I know this

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Speaker 4: sounds shocking to people, we could explain it. We give

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Speaker 4: out work authorization to illegal immigrants, so they're technically illegally

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Speaker 4: in the United States. They're called inadmissible aliens if you

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Speaker 4: want to know the term. But we've given them social

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Speaker 4: Security numbers so they can work. But this allows them

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Speaker 4: to access cash benefits from the earned income tax credit.

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Speaker 4: You don't pay any federal income tax if your incomes

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Speaker 4: low enough, and you get sometimes a check for four

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Speaker 4: or five thousand dollars from the government. And yes, illegal

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Speaker 4: immigrants can and you get that check because they have

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Speaker 4: the work authorization. They're just so you understand that that happens. Now,

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Speaker 4: that's not all illegal immigrants. Don't get me wrong, Sure,

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Speaker 4: that's what happens.

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Speaker 3: Well, And just to make it clear, I mean we

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Speaker 3: always say this. I don't begrudge anybody doing this. Man,

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Speaker 3: if you knew you could get in and have a

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Speaker 3: kid in the United States and what the path that's

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Speaker 3: going to set them on, Hell yeah, I would do that,

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Speaker 3: right And look.

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Speaker 4: The other that's right. Look, we have no evidence that's

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Speaker 4: probably happening, but that's not what drives the numbers. No evidence.

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Speaker 4: This is fraud. And let me tell you something else.

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Speaker 4: Eighty three percent of immigrant households have at least one worker.

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Speaker 4: Ninety four percent of illegal immigrant of illegal immigrants, it's

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Speaker 4: eighty three for all immigrant households, and it's ninety four

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Speaker 4: percent for illegal immigrant households have at least one worker.

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Speaker 4: The comparison with the native borns is seventy three percent.

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Speaker 4: But work, Yeah, work and welfare go together just fine.

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Speaker 4: All the programs we've been discussing. You couldn't get the

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Speaker 4: Well the Earn Income Task Credit is for workers, but

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Speaker 4: you can get wick and free school lunch, and live

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Speaker 4: in public housing and be on Medicaid and many other

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Speaker 4: things even if you work. If your income is low enough,

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Speaker 4: So if you're like a family of four and you

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Speaker 4: make less than forty thousand a year, most welfare programs

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Speaker 4: are open to you. And in California and specific the

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Speaker 4: income thresholds tend to be high, so they tend to

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Speaker 4: give you a lot and you're eligible for just about everything.

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Speaker 4: Other states like Texas or Florida more restrictive, but still

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Speaker 4: you can get lots of programs. Work does not in

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Speaker 4: any way preclude welfare use. If you had to put

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Speaker 4: this whole phenomenon in a bumper sticker, when it comes

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Speaker 4: to immigrant workers, it's there's a high cost to cheap labor,

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Speaker 4: but it's born by taxpayers. The costs are diffuse. They're

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Speaker 4: born by everyone. Whereas the employer and maybe the consumer

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Speaker 4: who's using the services, they get the benefit, but everyone

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Speaker 4: has to pay got.

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Speaker 3: So you get your lawn mode for what you feel

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Speaker 3: like is a really great price, or house cleaned or whatever,

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Speaker 3: but your taxes are so high.

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Speaker 4: Right, And I think that's the way to think about it, exactly.

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Speaker 4: And so the short entw is okay, but maybe we

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Speaker 4: need these workers. But I would add one other thing,

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Speaker 4: and that is that one of the things that's happening

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Speaker 4: in America, one of the most troubling trends is all

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Speaker 4: the US born people of all races, black, Hispanic, and white.

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Speaker 4: We've seen this phenomenon sitting on them sidelines. That is,

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Speaker 4: they neither work nor do they look for work, which

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Speaker 4: means every unemployment number you see does not include So

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Speaker 4: let me give you just one exgo. If you look

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Speaker 4: at men who have only a high school education or

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Speaker 4: less in nineteen sixty, only seven of them. We're entirely

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Speaker 4: out of the labor market, neither working nor looking for

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Speaker 4: men looking for work today it's twenty five percent. So

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Speaker 4: we have no millions of less educated Americans sitting on

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Speaker 4: the sidelines. So if we really do need workers, my

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Speaker 4: solution is that it would make more sense to let

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Speaker 4: wages rise and help the working for and this would

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Speaker 4: help attract Americans who are sitting on the sidelines back.

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Speaker 4: But you'd probably need to reform the welfare system and

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Speaker 4: especially the disability system. Yeah, a long explanation. A lot

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Speaker 4: of these numbers reflect what happened, is we reformed welfare

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Speaker 4: and everyone just went on disability.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean.

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Speaker 4: That's a gross oversimplification.

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Speaker 1: Hey, this is talk radio, that's what we do.

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Speaker 3: I got to interrupt you just because you hit us

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Speaker 3: with the blizzard of stuff there. All of it really

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Speaker 3: really good man, you're speaking our language. We cover those

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Speaker 3: topics so often. And the number of healthy men who

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Speaker 3: are who can choose not to work. I mean, when

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Speaker 3: in world history have you ever been able to choose

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Speaker 3: not to work as a healthy man, you can choose

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Speaker 3: not to work. On our current society, you might have

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Speaker 3: to change based on all those stats. Change it from

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Speaker 3: the Center for Immigration Studies to the Center of We're

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Speaker 3: already a socialist country studies.

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Speaker 4: Right, I mean, people have that misconception. There's really not

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Speaker 4: the extensive nature of America's welfare system is not that

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Speaker 4: different than many Western European countries. I mean, the European

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Speaker 4: countries differ. But that's one reason why if you have

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Speaker 4: a relatively laxed immigration system, which our legal system is

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Speaker 4: mostly based on family relationships, not skills, and of course

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Speaker 4: illegal immigration is not very selective at all. And so

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Speaker 4: what the administration is doing by releasing so many people

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Speaker 4: in the United States, that's the part I think the

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Speaker 4: public still doesn't quite get. It's not that people people

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Speaker 4: are doing this in enormous numbers, slipping past the border patrol,

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Speaker 4: but that's not mostly what's happening. They're being caught and

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Speaker 4: then released, or they're presenting themselves at the border and

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Speaker 4: being presented and being released under a variety of what

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Speaker 4: I would argue is abuse of the lag using parole

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Speaker 4: and asylum and such. But the point is that's what's happening.

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Speaker 4: So if you had a wall that no one could

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Speaker 4: ever get past between the ports of entry, it might

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Speaker 4: not make that much difference.

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Speaker 3: Right, I see your point, because it is being released. Right, Hey,

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Speaker 3: we gotta take a break. I really enjoyed your time.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad we could get you on. We're gonna talk

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Speaker 3: to you again, Stephen Camarada with the Center for Immigration Studies.

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Speaker 1: That was great stuff.

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Speaker 4: Thank you very much, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, man, he was good. We gotta have him on

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Speaker 3: again when Joe's here. Love that stuff so interesting, looking

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Speaker 3: at statistics from a number of different ways, which people

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Speaker 3: rarely do. Anyway, we got to introduce Katie Green to

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Speaker 3: one of the worst Christmas songs we've been playing for years.

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Speaker 3: I bet she hasn't heard this.

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Speaker 1: Coming up next, Armstrong and Getty