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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you from House Top

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Speaker 1: Works not come hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroly, and today we're cooking with gender

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Speaker 1: in the podcast studio we are. We're talking about chefs,

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Speaker 1: not the movie Chef. Well, maybe a little bit the

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Speaker 1: movie Chef to kick things off, because first of all,

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Speaker 1: just generally speaking, this chef, gender, women, cheffing, cooking words

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Speaker 1: words topic is one that a number of stuff I've

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Speaker 1: Never Told You listeners have requested because chef is still

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Speaker 1: very much a masculine gendered now and it is epitomized

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways by the movie Chef starring

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Speaker 1: Jon Favreau, which may may I offer brief synopsis before

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Speaker 1: we give our stuff I've Never told You review Chef.

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Speaker 1: So Jon Favreau, who I like? Okay, I'll go on

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Speaker 1: the record. I like Jon Favreau. He stars as this

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Speaker 1: tempestuous chef who's very inventive, very good at what he does,

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Speaker 1: of course, but he ends up getting fired from his

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Speaker 1: chef position because, you guys, he tweets out what he

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Speaker 1: actually thinks about a rude food critic and ends up

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Speaker 1: starting a food truck. And that seems fine enough, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: But basically the movie comes off like Jon Favreau just

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Speaker 1: put together a script or a screenplay in order to

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Speaker 1: have sexy times with Sophia Vergara who plays his wife

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Speaker 1: or his ex wife wanted to wife. Uh. And Scarlett Johnson,

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Speaker 1: who is the hostess in his restaurant question Mark, who

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Speaker 1: was very attracted to him. And that was the scene

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Speaker 1: where I wanted to throw my whisk at the television screen,

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Speaker 1: was when scar Joe is really pining for him actively

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Speaker 1: and he was like, oh, I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: can do this, and I was just like, seriously, seriously

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Speaker 1: a blow to John Fabrow gets gets to turn down

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Speaker 1: Scarlet Joe Hanson like I welcome to Hollywood. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know that that movie. There's this like super long

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Speaker 1: speaking of Scarlett JR. Hanson, there's a super long grilled

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Speaker 1: cheese making like sexy montage. He's making the grilled cheese

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Speaker 1: for her. She is not a grilled cheese um. And

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Speaker 1: I just wondered, like thinking about that if the role

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Speaker 1: were reversed, if the woman, if the main character were

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Speaker 1: a woman chef, would they have made like a sexy

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Speaker 1: grilled cheese montage no caroline. It just would have been

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Speaker 1: a cutaway to her eating yogurt very sexily at every

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Speaker 1: yogurt commercial chest right and laughing with the salad. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Maybe if she were making some kind of chocolate dish

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Speaker 1: and some like fell out of the ball and onto

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Speaker 1: the counter and she was like, oh, I'll look it up.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait a minute, or she could have enacted that cover.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember what magazine it was that had Nigella

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Speaker 1: Lawson on it with the caramel it was a cheeky

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Speaker 1: or something like dripping down her face. Yeah. Then as

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Speaker 1: that's just hard to get out of the hair, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, oh yeah, I know. That's all I

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Speaker 1: could think about. It's hard enough to get like bubble

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Speaker 1: gum out of the hair, but les a whole bucket

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Speaker 1: marshmallow fluff. You know, I don't know what I'm doing,

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Speaker 1: but but for our purposes today, Chef starring Jon Favreau

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Speaker 1: is a useful jumping off point because it really does

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Speaker 1: contain so many of these gender dichotomys of men and

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Speaker 1: women in the kitchen, where you have man as revolutionary,

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Speaker 1: innovative sexy chef by virtue of his genius, whereas women

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Speaker 1: are kind of always struggling in this male dominated profession.

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Speaker 1: They have to be more sexless unless they are like

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Speaker 1: a Nigella who's cooking on television, which we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about in our next episode. Um, and are nurturing

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Speaker 1: with their food. They're feeding people rather than inventing. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I mean also, when you look at the movie Chef,

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Speaker 1: everyone in his kitchen is a dude, including John Leguizamo.

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Speaker 1: It's really the only other person I remember in that movie.

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Speaker 1: But but there are no ladies. Um, I don't even

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Speaker 1: know if there was a lady pastry chef in that movie.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at the statistics today, ladies and

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Speaker 1: gentlemen women make up the bulk of pastry chef. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: pastry chef would have been a perfect like token woman

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Speaker 1: for that. For that, here's your opportunity, and you missed it.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit though about the history

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Speaker 1: of cheffing, because as long as there have been people

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Speaker 1: wealthy enough to not cook their own food, there have

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Speaker 1: been private cooks, though it wasn't exactly an esteemed position,

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Speaker 1: because if you go back, for instance, to ancient Rome,

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Speaker 1: then cooking would have been the job of slaves. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so women at the house, they were not tasked with cooking.

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Speaker 1: You didn't have the ancient Roman why in there with

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Speaker 1: a whisk being like I've got to get dinner ready

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Speaker 1: for the guests, all these great leaves. No, none of that.

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Speaker 1: It was slaves jobs. But but don't be fooled. There

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Speaker 1: were still ancient food snobs. So like you can take

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Speaker 1: comfort and when you're rolling your eyes at food snobs today,

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Speaker 1: whether it's a food writer or just your friend who

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Speaker 1: won't stop posting pictures on Instagram, it's always been there

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Speaker 1: and it will always continue to be there. So this

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Speaker 1: is coming from Patrick Fosz, who wrote Around the Roman

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Speaker 1: Table in UH. He says that there were these cookery

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Speaker 1: writers who asserted that the art of cooking and that's

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Speaker 1: in quotes, should not be left to slaves or ordinary folks.

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Speaker 1: So there was the idea back then of like chef

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Speaker 1: or not chef, but a cook as someone who was

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Speaker 1: above the fray, that they were smarter and more artistic

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Speaker 1: than you in practicing this craft. And there are even

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Speaker 1: third century BC plays that do feature boastful commercial cooks

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Speaker 1: who had their own kitchen slaves. And when we get

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Speaker 1: to the Middle Ages, things start becoming a little more

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Speaker 1: professionalized and structured thanks to guilds and apprenticeships. But for

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Speaker 1: the origins of restaurant chefs, we have to go to France, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: Let's go to France, to France and to sup places. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love the first restaurants where essentially those like let

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Speaker 1: us suprise you restaurants which I will not go to

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Speaker 1: because the name drives me crazy. You used to love

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Speaker 1: it as a kid, because Caroline, you know I love puns.

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Speaker 1: And also I wasn't there so much for the soup

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Speaker 1: and salad, but they would always have all you can eat,

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Speaker 1: always in it for the froo and puns. What has changed, nothing,

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Speaker 1: I don't know thing. Yeah. So in the eighteenth century,

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Speaker 1: after those guilds, legal structures relax, we get the first

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Speaker 1: modern Western restaurants, and of course they're run by guys,

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Speaker 1: because the world was run by guys. So in seventeen

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Speaker 1: sixty five we get the first restaurant, which is basically

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Speaker 1: just a soup place that sold restoratives, hence the word restaurant.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting to note that that word

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Speaker 1: restaurant has been associated with restorative broths and stews since

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Speaker 1: the Middle Ages, and this is followed by the first

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Speaker 1: fancy pants place with actual menus in seventeen eighty two,

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Speaker 1: which I would love to see a menu from the

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Speaker 1: eighteenth century. I bet it's heavy on the awful. But

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until the beginning of the nineteenth century that

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Speaker 1: chefs became known as chefs short for chef e cuisine

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Speaker 1: that's right, and then still in France because it's like

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Speaker 1: the birthplace of chefery. Well of everything Caroline, all culture,

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Speaker 1: suits and tweeds and soups, poodles, yes, and soups but yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it's in France that we get the development of

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Speaker 1: different types of chefs, and it's where we start to

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Speaker 1: see higher status and more professionalization when these formerly known

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Speaker 1: as cooks chefs start making their own menus and supervising

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Speaker 1: all aspects of kitchen management. So it goes beyond making

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Speaker 1: soups kristen and into telling other people how to make

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Speaker 1: soups and take them out to people at the dinner table.

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Speaker 1: And the most famous one of the time was a

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Speaker 1: guy named Anton and Karem, who's credited with making the

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Speaker 1: position of chef what we think of it today. Karem

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Speaker 1: was the original John Fabri. He essentially worked up through

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Speaker 1: an apprentice style hierarchy himself, and then I guess once

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Speaker 1: he got to the top, he was like, and now

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Speaker 1: since I cannot be king, I shall be chef. But

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Speaker 1: it's really George Auguste Escoffier, who's often cited as the

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Speaker 1: chef who applied military like structure to the kitchen, and

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Speaker 1: he also is credited with inventing the fifth mother sauce.

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Speaker 1: And Caroline just think it's kind of funny that all

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Speaker 1: of these guys created these like five basic sauces of

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Speaker 1: French cuisine called them mother sauces, because shouldn't they just

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Speaker 1: be like father sauces instead saucy sauces, sassy sauces sauces.

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Speaker 1: I actually hate French cooking. I'm dropping a truth bomb.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm I. My boyfriend and I went to a

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Speaker 1: like super hyper fancy, expensive, overpriced French restaurant. We we

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Speaker 1: we we uh we know. It was terrible. It was

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Speaker 1: it was just like so heavy and and everything was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is so good, but let's put one weird ingredient

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Speaker 1: in here to totally throw the taste off. I just

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Speaker 1: anton and krem is rolling in his grave. I know

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Speaker 1: they both are. I'm, i'm we're gonna get letters um

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Speaker 1: from from their ghosts, from their ghosts. Yeah, but so

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Speaker 1: we've only mentioned dudes so far. I would like to

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Speaker 1: know where the ladies are. And it turns out that, uh,

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Speaker 1: no surprised. Women were basically at home. But even though

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Speaker 1: a lot of them were cooking at home from the

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Speaker 1: seventies through the nineteenth centuries for a very very long time,

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Speaker 1: that didn't mean they weren't necessarily making money off of it.

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Speaker 1: Some women would be caterers or confectioners, and as early

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Speaker 1: as the seventeenth century in England, women were instructing other

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Speaker 1: women in the art of baking, talk about a very

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Speaker 1: gendered culinary craft, so that they could earn a little

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Speaker 1: pocket change as well. Yeah, and they sometimes ran small

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Speaker 1: shops selling their own preserves and candies and ba goods,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes ran simple baking and catering operations out of

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Speaker 1: their home. And I think that it's an interesting side

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Speaker 1: note that in eighteenth century America, when you start to

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Speaker 1: see a couple of different types of cooking schools emerging,

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Speaker 1: you get the first public pastry lessons from a woman.

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Speaker 1: And this is Elizabeth Goodfellow, who opened her own pastry

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Speaker 1: shop in Philadelphia in eighteen o eight, and that's America's

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Speaker 1: first cooking school, which that's not this episode. We're not

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Speaker 1: talking about cooking schools. But I do think it's interesting

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Speaker 1: that so women have always been cooking at home, except

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Speaker 1: you know, in ancient Rome, where it was the job

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Speaker 1: of a team of slaves and not the woman of

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Speaker 1: the house. But it's always traditionally been woman, the woman's

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Speaker 1: role to cook for the family. But here, when it

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Speaker 1: comes time to leave the house and make an income,

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Speaker 1: women are basically limited to this baking realm. Baking realm,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and the I think it's notable too that

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Speaker 1: we have it acceptable for them being in the instructional

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Speaker 1: role as well, which is still distinct from being in

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Speaker 1: the professional kitchen cooking for quote unquote important mouths. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why I put that in quotes because those

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Speaker 1: are just my own words. Um, And that's something though.

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Speaker 1: That instructional angle is something that we'll talk about also

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Speaker 1: in our Celebrity Slash TV Chef episode coming up next.

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Speaker 1: But like you said, this whole women as baker's trend

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Speaker 1: never really stops. Even if we look at the James

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Speaker 1: Beard Awards for pastry, in the past ten years, seven

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Speaker 1: women have taken it home while three men have taken

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Speaker 1: it home. And then there was one husband and wife couple,

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Speaker 1: which I thought was so precious. And women, though still

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Speaker 1: make up a large majority of culinary school pastry program

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Speaker 1: and roll ees. It's the most acceptable culinary course for

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Speaker 1: women even today because ladies love baking, right, we have

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Speaker 1: the little delicate fingers that can make those intricate suites. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's basically the Industrial Revolution for food, with tiny child

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Speaker 1: fingers making making cakes. And it is that exactness that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people site as a reason for being

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Speaker 1: attracted to baking. And it's interesting to read interviews with

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Speaker 1: people who are pastry chefs and bakers and things like that,

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Speaker 1: because they always they echo these gendered ideas. UH. New

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Speaker 1: Jersey Monthly in talked to pastry chef Melissa Walknock and

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Speaker 1: she says, um, she loves the precision and science of it.

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Speaker 1: She says, if something goes wrong, I can backtrack and

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Speaker 1: figure it out. And I've always has been drawn to

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Speaker 1: the artistic element of pastry. A regular chef not to

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Speaker 1: demean what they do. They take a piece of raw

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Speaker 1: meat and cook it. I'm making a whole new creation

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Speaker 1: from scratch. Perhaps, She says, females have more patients, enjoy

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Speaker 1: working on intricate things, and are more organized, whereas she says,

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Speaker 1: guys take a monstrous animal like a three pound pig

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Speaker 1: and break it down. It brings out their manliness, I

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Speaker 1: guess and Walknock also notes that the pastry departments in

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Speaker 1: the super fancy restaurants where she's worked are all guys.

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Speaker 1: So even though she says that, yeah, there's this total

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Speaker 1: gender division, like women maybe are more drawn to pastry

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Speaker 1: and men are more drawn to classic cheffery. Uh, even

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Speaker 1: when you get up in those higher echelons, it's still

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Speaker 1: dude driven, and which is something kind of echoed in

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Speaker 1: our teaching podcast where it's like the higher up the

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Speaker 1: rank of what we consider a feminized profession you go,

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Speaker 1: you do tend to see more guys at the top.

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Speaker 1: But she also wasn't the only pastry chef that New

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Speaker 1: Jersey Monthly talked to who mentioned just like this assumption

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Speaker 1: that oh, yeah, women are just innately drawn to pastry.

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Speaker 1: One person said, yeah, there's just you know, less testosterone

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Speaker 1: involved in making pastry, but perhaps it's not so much

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Speaker 1: hormones attracting women to pastry chefing as earlier and more

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Speaker 1: regular hours. That was something that The New Jersey Monthly

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Speaker 1: Reporter mentioned that pretty much every woman they talked to

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Speaker 1: sided in terms of it just being something that they

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Speaker 1: could do and also have a family. Yeah. One woman

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Speaker 1: they interviewed said that, I'm the pastry chef, so I

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Speaker 1: have my kids at night. My husband's the classic chef

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Speaker 1: in the restaurant. He works nights and has the kids

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Speaker 1: in the morning. Yeah. Oh, and and they also noted

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Speaker 1: like cooler temperatures in the kitchen. It's just let you

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Speaker 1: go in at like six am, five am, and it's

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Speaker 1: a quieter, it's cooler, and then you leave probably when

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Speaker 1: things are really heating up for dinner service. Well, and

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Speaker 1: that that can sound a little flip, but I mean,

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Speaker 1: we'll we'll touch on some issues, some more issues later

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Speaker 1: in the podcast about why women might feel unwelcome in

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Speaker 1: a kitchen if they're not a pastry chef. But sweets aside.

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Speaker 1: If we go back to our women in Restaurants timeline

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Speaker 1: in the early twentieth century, there there weren't restaurants run

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Speaker 1: by women, but rather tea rooms and cafeterias which were

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Speaker 1: considered appropriate for women, that women usually staffed in terms

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Speaker 1: of like top down, every single position. Yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: coming from Jan Whittaker and an article for the Boston

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Speaker 1: Hospitality Review. I thought it was really interesting that it's

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Speaker 1: not that these things were these places were literally only

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Speaker 1: for women, but it had a lot more to do,

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Speaker 1: she wrote, with the fact that men didn't want to

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Speaker 1: eat at a feminine woman's staffed establishment, especially more like

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Speaker 1: a cafeteria where it's like it's run by women and

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Speaker 1: I have to pick up my own tray of food,

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Speaker 1: Like this is ridiculous, This is not what a restaurant

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Speaker 1: is um And I thought it was interesting too that

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Speaker 1: here in Atlanta we've got Marry Max tea Room and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't started in the early twentieth century, was started

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Speaker 1: in the forties. It's one of Atlanta's only remaining tea rooms.

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Speaker 1: But it was started by a woman. And in the

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Speaker 1: history of the restaurant on the website, it talks about how, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, a woman couldn't just walk in and start

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Speaker 1: a restaurant, so the owner started it as a tea room.

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Speaker 1: So when then did we get the first professional chef

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Speaker 1: who was a woman in a restaurant. I don't know

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Speaker 1: that she was necessarily the first, but she was certainly

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Speaker 1: the first famous one. In World War One, we have

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Speaker 1: an attack Meyer who was appointed as chef at E. M.

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Speaker 1: Statler's hotel Pennsylvania. Yeah, and this is all a bunch

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Speaker 1: of the information is also coming from Jan Whittaker, but

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Speaker 1: also a fabulous profile of tach Meyer and Woman's Home companion.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, tack Meyer got her start making sandwiches and

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Speaker 1: other lunch goodies to sell to employees at the Public

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Speaker 1: Library on Fifth Avenue in New York, and they liked

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Speaker 1: her so much and liked her food so much that

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Speaker 1: they ended up giving her a space for a lunch room.

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Speaker 1: She switched things up a little bit by working as

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Speaker 1: a traveling saleswoman for the General Chemical Company. But she

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Speaker 1: apparently took this opportunity in all of her travels of

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Speaker 1: staying at hotels to note how bland and boring much

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Speaker 1: hotel food was, and so she she basically approached E. M.

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Speaker 1: Statler and told him, what's what like, dude, you're cooking

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Speaker 1: is like so dull? So he ends up hiring her

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Speaker 1: for his hotel, but it's a separate woman only home

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Speaker 1: cooking kitchen, as is appropriate and should be Caroline Um

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Speaker 1: So in that women's home companion profile, though, it raves

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Speaker 1: that tack Meyer has quote pointed the way to a

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Speaker 1: new field of woman's endeavor and one which women can

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Speaker 1: make peculiarly their own. And the whole angle of it

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Speaker 1: was like, well, you know what, I'm just I'm just

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Speaker 1: doing this home cooking. We're gonna make lots of fried

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Speaker 1: chicken and gravy and offer weary travelers a kind of

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Speaker 1: food that their wife might be serving them at home instead.

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Speaker 1: So we still have that woman as nurturer, replacing like

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Speaker 1: the domestic role. Yeah, and as um Whittaker points out,

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Speaker 1: this ties in with both tea rooms and cafeterias, and

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Speaker 1: with tack Meyer's role that for most of the twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: she writes, women's cooking was directly related to what was

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Speaker 1: going on at home. Women weren't coming in and taking

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Speaker 1: apart those three hundred pound pigs and cooking massive dinners

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Speaker 1: of meat and potatoes for an entire hotel of guests.

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Speaker 1: There was just a lot of boiling baking, pan, frying,

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Speaker 1: and stewing, because, as Whitaker says, the drama of big

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Speaker 1: knives and high flames was absent. A kitchen run by

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Speaker 1: a woman was likely to be staffed by women, also

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Speaker 1: as men disliked taking orders from the opposite sex. And

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Speaker 1: they even asked in this profile, this woman's companion profile,

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Speaker 1: they asked tack Meyer what the male chefs thought of her,

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Speaker 1: which I thought was great because I was like, this

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Speaker 1: is exactly what would be asked in an interview in

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Speaker 1: what do your male colleagues think of you? And apparently

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Speaker 1: she gave the reporter a knowing smile and said, they

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Speaker 1: have nothing to say, but I know that they are

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Speaker 1: keeping up a powerful lot of thinking. We do not

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Speaker 1: attempt to compete with them in any way. We are

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Speaker 1: specializing in a sort of cooking which they do not do.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that when they get used to us, they'll

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Speaker 1: see the matter in the right light. And she she

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Speaker 1: made it made it a point to emphasize like we're

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Speaker 1: not trying to compete with the men. We're not taking

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Speaker 1: their jobs. We're not doing any so of man cooking.

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Speaker 1: We're doing very specific home cooking. And so that woman's

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Speaker 1: companion piece encourages women like, look, you two can maybe

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Speaker 1: run your own segregated woman's gravy cooking kitchen one day

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Speaker 1: if you're lucky. Listen and all ladies gravy kitchen sounds

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Speaker 1: amazing to me. I'm going to open a bar and

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Speaker 1: name it that gravy kitchen, as long as there's like

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Speaker 1: a little nap room in the side, because gravy just

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Speaker 1: sounds like a real recipe for sleepy time. But if

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Speaker 1: we fast forward to three, three hotels reported that they

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Speaker 1: had female chefs, but that number didn't really last. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't like the trajectory just went up, up, up, and

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Speaker 1: now we have parody in the kitchen. No, if we

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Speaker 1: look at the modern lady chef landscape today, we're still

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Speaker 1: asking the same questions that tack Meyer would have been

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Speaker 1: asked in the World War One era. And we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about that when we come right back from a

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Speaker 1: quick break. So, like Christian was saying before the break,

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Speaker 1: the lady chef landscape today is really not that much better.

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Speaker 1: According to Bloomberg, there are more women's CEOs than there

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Speaker 1: are head chefs. What is going on? First, Let's look

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Speaker 1: at a couple of numbers. According to the Bureau of

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Speaker 1: Labor Statistics, fifty four point seven percent of food prep

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Speaker 1: and serving related occupations are filled by women, but that

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Speaker 1: drops to for chefs and head cooks, which itself ladies

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Speaker 1: and gentlemen, is down from the two thousand six pre

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Speaker 1: recession number of twenty three point nine. So if we

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Speaker 1: back up, though and look at cooking school, what's going

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Speaker 1: on UM of International Culinary Center Classic i e. Non

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Speaker 1: pastry graduate, it's our women. So that's a healthy percentage,

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Speaker 1: I mean, but it's still again we have more men

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Speaker 1: pursuing culinary arts than women. Uh even fewer enrolled in

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Speaker 1: the New York Culinary Institute of America's Culinary Arts Associate program,

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Speaker 1: thirty of them being women. In then, if you look

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Speaker 1: at Johnson and Wales, female graduates actually doubled from nine

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Speaker 1: to two thousand twelve UM and there were two more

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Speaker 1: women than men who graduated in that year. And so

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Speaker 1: we're starting to see at least more women filling the

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Speaker 1: second and third tier jobs like sush chef, but breaking

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Speaker 1: that culinary ceiling and getting getting that head chef hat on,

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Speaker 1: because I'm just imagining that once you are promoted to chef,

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Speaker 1: they give you a really fancy chef hat, that's still

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Speaker 1: a big question mark. I think that's a thing though,

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Speaker 1: Like your hat does designate who you are the height

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Speaker 1: of it. I mean, I would if I make it

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Speaker 1: to chef, I would want to really, really like a

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Speaker 1: gallant chef hat. Yeah. I started to accidentally off ramp

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Speaker 1: in the research of this because I started reading about

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Speaker 1: the hats and what they mean, and it's all a

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Speaker 1: bunch of like mythology. Whoy It's nobody can really pinpoint when,

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Speaker 1: where and why all of these hat traditions originated. Who

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Speaker 1: I bet there are stuff I ever told you listeners

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Speaker 1: to who can give us chef hat insight. I bet

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Speaker 1: that you know. Anytime I'm at a restaurant and I

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Speaker 1: see a chef come out of the kitchen with the

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Speaker 1: big top on his head, I'm always like, how do

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Speaker 1: you keep that on your head? It's not win resistant.

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Speaker 1: Maybe do they have like a chinche strap, maybe like

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Speaker 1: a marching band hat that they should And also they

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Speaker 1: should play marching band instruments or they should just wear

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Speaker 1: marching band hats. Well, yeah, we we are really solving

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Speaker 1: a lot of problems. We're solving all the problems, but

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Speaker 1: looking at all of those relatively positive culinary school stats,

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Speaker 1: it led me to wonder if there's just a leaky

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Speaker 1: pipeline like there is any time we talk about STEM

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Speaker 1: women in pursuing science to chnology, engineering and math careers.

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Speaker 1: And the answer is basically, yeah, it's not that women

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Speaker 1: are dropping out of culinary school. There are plenty of

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Speaker 1: women who are going. There are more women than ever

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Speaker 1: who are pursuing these careers. But so, what then is

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Speaker 1: stuck in the pipe that is making women sort of

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Speaker 1: fall back instead of pursue a longer career in cheffery. Well,

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Speaker 1: some people think that women just don't want the job.

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Speaker 1: They don't want to have to pursue and go through

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Speaker 1: all of the trouble, the literal kitchen trouble that you

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Speaker 1: have to go through to prove yourself in order to

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Speaker 1: achieve the rank of chef. And this is something that

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Speaker 1: Katie Grico, who is head of human resources at Craft

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Speaker 1: Group and Craft for Top Chef Fans is Tom Colichio's group.

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Speaker 1: She said, quote, there just aren't as many women who

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Speaker 1: want to do the jobs as men, and I think

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Speaker 1: that executive chefing might be one of them. So are like,

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Speaker 1: why why wouldn't women esp are to these kinds of jobs.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, babies, family, the whole structure of working in

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Speaker 1: a professional kitchen, especially if you are a chef, that

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Speaker 1: means that you are working at night and really like

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Speaker 1: all day. It doesn't really leave much time at all

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Speaker 1: if you want to be a parent as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this is something that Mary Blair Lloyd in her

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Speaker 1: book calls the family devotion schema. Basically, they're more societal

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Speaker 1: expectations on women to have a family raised, that family,

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Speaker 1: be home with the family, and rather than dedicating themselves

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Speaker 1: to high power, high stress careers that take them away

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Speaker 1: from the home. Um. So yeah. Within within the restaurant industry,

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Speaker 1: of course, it's not surprising that maternity and paternity leave

428
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,719
Speaker 1: are super rare. Those long hours end up really requiring

429
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: creative childcare options. Like that couple we mentioned earlier where

430
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: the wife is the pastry chef, she works early hours,

431
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: the husband is the classic chef, he works at night.

432
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,239
Speaker 1: They basically switch off. I wonder when they see each other. Now,

433
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: I'm worried about this couple that I don't know. I

434
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: thought the same thing, Caroline when I was reading about

435
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 1: them like, but where's their couple times? You know they

436
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: have date nights? What if they're one night off a

437
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: week doesn't overlap? Um? But so any who? Uh. The

438
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: delightful chef Jean George von Richton, who runs twenty four

439
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: restaurants in North America, basically laid it out that hey,

440
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: by the time that it becomes Sioux chefs and they're

441
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: hitting almost thirty, they want to have a family and

442
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 1: it changes everything. He says, the ticking clock makes a difference.

443
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: Thanks Jean George for your perspective. Well, we should also

444
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 1: note though, to Carolina. In the same interview, Jean George

445
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 1: commented that his sole female sex chef, she's very talented. Yes, yes,

446
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 1: but she's also so attractive she should be a model instead.

447
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: Ha ha ha. Well, I'm glad he has so many opinions. Well,

448
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: and in that interview too, was cited in a number

449
00:26:55,200 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: of our sources we were reading as a snapshot of

450
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: sexism in professional kitchens. Well, and people might be wondering, well,

451
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 1: where's the sexism in in women, you know, wanting to

452
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: have children at or whatever. And it's like, well, no, no, no, no,

453
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: that's not sexist. You can want to have kids whenever,

454
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: never want them to happen at all. It's more of

455
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: the assumption from people like this guy that oh, well,

456
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: you're just gonna leave, You're gonna I'm gonna hire you

457
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: as a Sioux chef, but you're never going to really

458
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: rise up the ranks because you're gonna want to start

459
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: popping out babies. And he even continued on in his

460
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,199
Speaker 1: thoughts to say something like women just want more of

461
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: a life. No, yeah, I mean no. Um. Nicole Brisson,

462
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: who's the executive chef at Mario Batali's Las Vegas restaurant, UM,

463
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: has talked about how she often works nineteen hour days.

464
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: She's so tired of people assuming that she's the pastry

465
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: chef because gender again, and said that if she ever

466
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: wanted to have kids, she'd probably have to quitter job. Yeah,

467
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: because if you don't have the type of partner at

468
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: home who can fill in that gap, or you don't

469
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: have those child care options, no matter who you are,

470
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: that's gonna make you, know, man or woman, that's gonna

471
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: make having kids and having a family pretty pretty tough.

472
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: Not to mention, the money for the hours you work

473
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: is not great, and this is also coming from the

474
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: Beer of Labor statistics, the average for US chefs and

475
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: head cooks in general is just over forty six thousand,

476
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: five hundred a year, but women's median income is eighty

477
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: three and a half percent that of men's. But the

478
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: thing is, when you think about that, it gets even

479
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: worse because so restaurant industry jobs are already pretty tough,

480
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: but women are concentrated at the lower ends. So when

481
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: people talk about why does women's representation at higher rungs

482
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: of their industries matter, it's things like this. This is where,

483
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: if this is your passion, this is where you make

484
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: the most money. But not as many women are rising

485
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: through those ranks as then are cracking that culinary ceiling.

486
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: But also when they do, they're still making slightly less. Yeah,

487
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: and not to mention the scarce health benefits or insurance vacations,

488
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: sick time, et cetera. I mean this, this puts our

489
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: maternity leave episode um in a different light where it's

490
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: just like it just seems impossible. You know, you are

491
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: either going to be a chef and that is it,

492
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: or you're going to be something else. You figure out

493
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: another way to make it work and try to have

494
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: a life around that um and if you want to

495
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: be a chef, if you really want to try to

496
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: bust through that culinary ceiling, then there's a very good

497
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: chance that you're going to have to deal with some

498
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: hostility in general, and possibly sexual harassment. This is something

499
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: that a lot of women in very important kitchens around

500
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: the world have talked about, and some women who don't

501
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: want to talk about it at all. There was an

502
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: interview in Fortune magazine with the chef whose name I'm

503
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: forget at the moment. She um At the time, though,

504
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: was became the third woman in the US to receive

505
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: two Michelin stars, and the interviewer asked her if she

506
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: had ever experienced sexual harassment, and she said, well, of

507
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: course I have, but I don't want to talk about it. Yeah,

508
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: and and it's something that dep Tran, who's the chef

509
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: owner of the Good Girl Dinet in Los Angeles, talked

510
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: about that she basically did not let stuff like that

511
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: dissuade her, but she says that she has watched other

512
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: women stay away because of it, which she says, quote,

513
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: they shouldn't have to do, that these are unacceptable conditions,

514
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: and that she makes sure that in her restaurant. Uh,

515
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: people are outright fired if they won't cut out the

516
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: not only is sexual harassment behavior, but really any sort

517
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: of racist, sexist, any type of phobic behavior or language.

518
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: She just doesn't tolerate it. Well, I wonder if that

519
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: generally hostile which someone just call my show environment and

520
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: a lot of these kitchens goes back to a scopier

521
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: and the militarization of the kitchen hierarchy and the entire

522
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: way that kitchens are run. And I'm also thinking about

523
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: just watching episodes of Gordon Ramsey's Hell's Kitchen where he's

524
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: just screaming at people, and the assumption that if you

525
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: are going to work in a kitchen, then you need

526
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: to be ready to be cursed that continually and hear

527
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: all sorts of awful things and to just be sweating constantly.

528
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: I mean, it just seems like a very unpleasant place.

529
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: I mean, but that just makes me think of so

530
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: many other career type topics that you and I have

531
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: talked about where it's like it doesn't have to be

532
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: like that. You know, people are like, well, women can't

533
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: stand the pressure, so they just shouldn't even bother, you know,

534
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: women obviously aren't cut out for this environment because this

535
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: is the environment that kitchens have. And it's like, well,

536
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously not all kitchens function like that. Obviously

537
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: there are restaurant owners who don't tolerate is crap. So

538
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: why don't we just agree to change the environment. Yeah,

539
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: I mean, you can influence the you can build whatever

540
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: kind of workplace culture you probably want to have, even

541
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: if you are in a high pressure environment. But I

542
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: wonder too if there's that almost locker room esque resistance

543
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: embedded within an institutionalized within this industry to not want

544
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: that many women in the kitchen, and certainly not wanting

545
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: them to call the shots, because if you have women

546
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: in there, then you're gonna have to watch what you say.

547
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to watch who you might smack from

548
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: time to take the same thing we talked about in

549
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: our pin up episode about like, well, we can't fart

550
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: in front of people anymore, we can't have our kel,

551
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: our dirty calendars in front of people anymore. What is

552
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: the world coming to? But it's that idea that we

553
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: need to change the people instead of the culture that

554
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: has a lot of women feeling like they have to

555
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: walk this fine line in terms of fitting in. Sociologist

556
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: Debra Harris and Patty Jeffrey, Uh, we're writing a guest

557
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: post over the Aminist Kitchen, and these are two women

558
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: whose names you'll see a lot when you start reading

559
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: about issues of gender and cooking. Um. But they talked

560
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: about the fact that the women they have interviewed really

561
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: report this pressure to conform to that macho environment. They

562
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: end up feeling like invaders and have to constantly fight

563
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: against managers and higher ups ideas that women cannot physically

564
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: or emotionally handle higher pressure and higher status jobs. But

565
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: then on the flip side, you act to masculine and

566
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: you'll get labeled a bit or someone who is undermining authority.

567
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: So it does become a bit of this catch twenty two.

568
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: It seems like, yeah, you've either got to like fit

569
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: into the sexual harassment joking culture basically and be like, yeah,

570
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make all of these jokes to whether it

571
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: makes me uncomfortable or not, or I'm just gonna like

572
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: be cut and dry. I'm just gonna give orders, and

573
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: when I do, people are gonna, you know, ask me

574
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: where my sense of humor is. Like have to desect

575
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: your self almost um. But as Laura to Staino, who

576
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: is a well known chef de cuisine, told The New

577
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: York Times, it all depends on the kitchen, she says,

578
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 1: in a good kitchen, male and female really doesn't matter anymore.

579
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: You get the work done, you handle yourself professionally, because

580
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: kitchens can still be crazy places, and you go home.

581
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: And a lot of people say that us. I've seen

582
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: a lot of quotes about like, gender doesn't matter. Male

583
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: versus female doesn't matter. It's your passion for the cooking,

584
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: it's your passion for the craft. And yeah, sure, I

585
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: agree with that genders shouldn't matter, but it obviously does,

586
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: and it even affects well in a cyclical way. It

587
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: affects how women chefs are then covered in the media,

588
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: which then affects the trajectories of a lot of people's careers. Yeah.

589
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: There there's a lot of concern and conversation within the

590
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: culinary industry over the ghetto wising of female chefs, of

591
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: whether it is useful at this point to spotlight female

592
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: chefs and whether that's just again continuing this cycle of oh,

593
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 1: look it's a woman who can cook. Yeah. The editors

594
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 1: in chief of both gourmet and food and wine magazines

595
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: who are both women. Basically we're saying no, no way,

596
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: because once you start doing those like top women lists,

597
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: that's just another way of pointing out differences or emphasizing

598
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: that male and female are inherently different. When they're saying no.

599
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: Once you're holding the knife, you're holding the knife. It

600
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman. But

601
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: then you have the issue of what happened with Time

602
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: magazine a couple of years ago when they put together

603
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: this Gods of Foods spread, you know, showcasing whom they

604
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: selected to be the most influential chefs and literal tastemakers

605
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: in the US, and I don't know, it might have

606
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: also been around the world and people who were not

607
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: too pleased with it because the Gods of food, as odds, implies,

608
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: we're all dudes. It was like that Vanity Fair photo

609
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: not too long ago that came out where it was

610
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: like the new face of late night TV and it

611
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: was just all dudes and suits, mostly white dudes. Yeah,

612
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: it was Trevor Noah in that picture. Yes, Okay, well

613
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: there we go. There we go, Trevor Noah diversity, Here

614
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: we go. Um and a lot of people of course,

615
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,959
Speaker 1: then called for well, if you're going to only feature dudes,

616
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: we need to have a goddess is a food thing

617
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: And then that again was like you said, Kristen criticized

618
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: his just ghetto izing female chefs. It would be like saying, oh, well, yeah,

619
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: these are good for girls, like good for them. But

620
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: Amanda Cohen, who's the chef owner of Dirt Candy, which

621
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: is a vegetarian restaurant, which I was like dirt Candy, vegetables.

622
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: I get it. I know I had the same moment

623
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 1: at the exact same moment like Dirt Candy. All right,

624
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,959
Speaker 1: she said on Twitter, as long as women are under

625
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: recognized by most mainstream awards, they need their own awards

626
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: hashtag necessary evil. She went on to blog that press

627
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: gives disproportionate attention to men, which means quote deadline oppressed,

628
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: nomination committees and food writers focus on just those people,

629
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: creating a cycle of recognition, reward, and fame. Well, speaking

630
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: of Twitter and this whole question, Anthony Bourdain tweeted out

631
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: something in response to the teen S. Pellegrino Award for

632
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: World's Best Female Chef, whom that year was Italian chef

633
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: Nadia Santini, and when it was announced, he tweeted out

634
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: something along the lines of do we seriously need a

635
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: female chef category? Isn't that kind of demeaning hashtag? Which

636
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that he hashtag that, um and it

637
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: sparked a lot of conversation yet again, but it was

638
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 1: also kind of funny because initially it was a lot

639
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: of prominent male chefs like tagging all of their other

640
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: dudes have friends, trying to have this conversation about whether

641
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: female chef categories are helpful or hurtful designations, to which

642
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: a lot of female chefs were like, seriously, this, this

643
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: is it. This is what we're talking about, guys. And

644
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: I mean, and it is a good question to raise,

645
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: Like does and this has come up in in so

646
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: many of our podcasts, a question of whether you know

647
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 1: female director or female doctor, which kind of just makes

648
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: it sound like a kind of collegist is progressing anything

649
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: at all? Yeah, No, I absolutely get the idea. I

650
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,800
Speaker 1: get the gist you need to be like, hey, no, seriously, guys,

651
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: there are women who are chefs and they're amazing, and

652
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: they're at these wonderful restaurants, and you need to go

653
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: eat their food and recognize them and give them awards

654
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: just the same as you do men. And I mean,

655
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: I think Cohen was right in saying that, like, hey,

656
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: some media people are not going to dig down deep

657
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: enough to get these names. We need to put them

658
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: out there. But yeah, it's that it's that idea of

659
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: inserting differences between male and female chefs, because of course,

660
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: there is no gender difference when it comes to how

661
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 1: you cook or how you taste, although some would say

662
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: that there is a difference in how men and women

663
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: cook at least when you look at how the media

664
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: does cover male and versus female chefs, because even when

665
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: female chefs get great attention, which is critical for their careers.

666
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: Of course, if you look at how men are covered,

667
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: they're usually given credit for intellectual and technical work in

668
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: producing dishes, their masters who dominate the food, their rule breakers.

669
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,240
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of David Chang and Anthony Bourdain now, um,

670
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 1: and they're usually seen as these like culinary empire builders,

671
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 1: whereas women usually get little mention of technical skill, and

672
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: they're likelier to be praised for being hard workers following

673
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: tradition and cooking from the heart, you know, they just

674
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 1: want to feed people. They just want to nourish as

675
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: women do. Yeah, and like we'll talk about in our

676
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: next episode, they're frequently portrayed as either mothers or sex objects.

677
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:17,280
Speaker 1: So comfort food. But Harris and Geoffrey, those sociologists mentioned earlier,

678
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: wrote that our research on media definitions of great chefs

679
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: tends to reaffirm the cooking and career choices made by men,

680
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: even though our interviews with women chefs show that they

681
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 1: face stereotypes, sometimes even hostility and family demands that make

682
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: it very hard for them to reach the same levels

683
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: as their male colleagues. And so basically looking at art,

684
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,399
Speaker 1: they looked at a bunch of articles and how men

685
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: and women are written about and how we define success,

686
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: and it's so often from the male point of view,

687
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: talking about those empires. Why haven't you built an empire yet?

688
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: How many restaurants do you own? Where are they? Whereas

689
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: women who don't get the same type of media attention

690
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: and who then don't end up winning the same types

691
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: of awards, they don't get the same platform that a

692
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: lot of these famous mail chefs do in terms of

693
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: people even knowing who they are. So that they can

694
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: go buy their branded cookwear, or watch their television show,

695
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: or eat at one of their fifteen restaurants. Well, and

696
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: a couple of examples of how this works if we

697
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: look at Lydia Bostonic. She's the owner of four restaurants

698
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: and a partner in a number of others. She's a

699
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: cookbook author, she's a TV host. Um. I was personally

700
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: introduced to Lydia, not on PBS, as I probably should

701
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: have been, which I believe she got her start TV

702
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 1: wise on on PBS, but rather as the mother of

703
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: Joe Bostonic, who was a former Master Chef judge. Um.

704
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: But because she is an Italian cook, partially because she's

705
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: an Italian cook, I think, and also because she's a woman,

706
00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: she's often framed as cooking, comforting, nurturing food. The food

707
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: is always being linked to her family, to her grandmother,

708
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: even though I mean, this woman is a winner of

709
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: multiple James Beard Awards, means she's a legit chef, but

710
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: it's usually always she's always framed as mother, wife, nurturer. Yeah,

711
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: and and same thing kind of with Alice Water. So

712
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: she's a self taught chef who was at the forefront

713
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: of the organic food movement in California. She started the

714
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,399
Speaker 1: restaurant Cha Pennice and Berkeley in the seventies. Gourmet named

715
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: it America's best restaurant two thousand one. It earned a

716
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: Michelin star in two thousand six through two thousand nine.

717
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: But still she's typically portrayed as this nurturer, educator, caretaker,

718
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: you know, adorable small businesswoman rather than the culinary powerhouse

719
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: that she really is. Well, it's probably because with her

720
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: and a lot of others, I think this is particular

721
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: two women chefs on the West Coast, which some of

722
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 1: the I think it was Gastronomica was suggesting, is friendlier

723
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: in general to women chefs versus the East Coast. A

724
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: lot of those female West Coast chefs, like Waters, are

725
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: more interested in having this one amazing restaurant that they

726
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 1: cultivate and have a strong hand and rather than building

727
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: out a franchise. Yeah, we did read, uh several different

728
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: sources that said that that women tend to be thriving

729
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: today in the smaller standalone restaurants scene rather than those

730
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: empires like your gravy kitchen, Caroline, Exactly what kind of

731
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: gravy do you want today, it's just just bacon, meat gravy,

732
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: feminist gravy. It would not be bacon pour it on everything.

733
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: It wouldn't be no. What would it be? Uh? I

734
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: don't know, unicorn, something, menstruli lord. Uh? Well, so what

735
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 1: can help us get over this hump of not being

736
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: able to recognize more women as the incredible chefs that

737
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: they are. One commenter on that feminist kitchen post that

738
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: we referenced was talking about how when you just continue

739
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: to talk about how bleak the landscape is for lady chefs,

740
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: it's not really going to help us. She said that

741
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 1: what I'd like to see is less focus on how

742
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: awful and hard kitchens are for women and more focused

743
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: on building networks of female cooks and chefs who can

744
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: support each other in material ways. Now, if you're talking

745
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: about separating women out from men, I think this is

746
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: an actual smart, productive way to do it. Maybe not

747
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: having the fifty best chefs lists and then the fifty

748
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: best women chefs like that sucks. But to have women

749
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: forming their own networks, whether they're huge corporate things or

750
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 1: more grassroots efforts, that is a great, I think way

751
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: to to spend your energies in whatever industry you're in. Yeah,

752
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: And that's something that's happening with the Toklast Society, which

753
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: is a networking group for women in the restaurant industry,

754
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: which was founded by Momofuko Group brand director Sue chan

755
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: Um And I love it. It's it's named for Alice

756
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 1: by Tokliss, who was Gertrude Stein's partner who would stay

757
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: home and take care of the house and cook the

758
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: meals while Stein was out being you know, being Gertrud. Yeah.

759
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: And there's also mentorship programs available when the Women Chefs

760
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:23,760
Speaker 1: and Restaurants Network and the group she Chef and slowly,

761
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,280
Speaker 1: very slowly, so slowly that there are a handful of examples. Um.

762
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: Restaurant groups are seeing the need for better insurance and

763
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: vacation policies and better maternity and paternity leave options because

764
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 1: I'm sure that we're, you know, at a point in

765
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: history maybe where I don't know, men also want to

766
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: take time off for their families, and so I think

767
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: people are starting to realize the need for better policies.

768
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: For instance, in that moment Fuku group that you just mentioned,

769
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: Kristen employees were with the company for a year. Get

770
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: free health insurance, paid vacations, and maternity and paternity leave.

771
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: The Altimira Group offers medical, dental, and vision insurance plus

772
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: paid holidays. And I knew people are like, what's the

773
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 1: big deal. That's a huge deal for the restaurant industry

774
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,760
Speaker 1: and Alice Water. Speaking of Alice Waters, she pioneer job

775
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: sharing programs between parents, instituted a six months off furlough

776
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: system for head chefs, and developed this roster of impressive

777
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,240
Speaker 1: cooks and chefs which allowed all of this allowed chefs

778
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: to have that flex time to spend with family as needed,

779
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: to take time off if you're sick. Can you imagine,

780
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: oh my god, someone working in a kitchen gets to

781
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 1: take sick time as it should be thinking of a

782
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: sick person making food. There was just an article the

783
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 1: other day that I saw online that was talking about

784
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 1: how nobody in the restaurant industry takes enough time off

785
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 1: for for sick time because because you could lose your

786
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: job so easily. You know the job of a chef.

787
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: I know we're talking about chefs specifically, but if you

788
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: can't show up for your shift from multiple nights, like

789
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: they still need to cook the food and beyond that too.

790
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,479
Speaker 1: One thing that Alexandra Grarna Shelley, who's the executive chef

791
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: in New York City's Butter restaurant, said was quote, when

792
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: women chefs get media attention, it's for bucking the norm.

793
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 1: How about we just become part of the norm. Can

794
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: we qualify for norm status? And that's an excellent point.

795
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 1: I mean, male chef is normative at this point. Female

796
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: chef is the other. She's in the gravy kitchen. When

797
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,320
Speaker 1: you heard about the movie Chef, I bet you didn't

798
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,280
Speaker 1: picture a lady chef. No. And you know what, speaking

799
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: of chef movies, I don't know if it's his next role,

800
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: but an upcoming role for Mr Bradley Cooper who just

801
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: made waves on the Internet and the media cycle in

802
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: general for UM saying that he would be sharing his

803
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: salary infoe with female co stars to make sure they're

804
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 1: getting equitable pay in Hollywood for all of his upcoming films.

805
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: And he will be doing that, I hope on his

806
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: upcoming film Burned, where he plays a chef. But you know,

807
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: if he is UM making grilled cheese sensually, I might

808
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: tune in. And with that, we got to close out

809
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 1: this podcast, because I think it just got hot in here,

810
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: all that MELTI cheese. Well, so we have, We've talked

811
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: about a lot. We we started talking about ancient soups

812
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: and now and now we're talking about ancient be coops.

813
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 1: Not so ancient, No, no, handsome, handsome though, hot and fresh. Okay. So,

814
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 1: so I would like to hear, because I know you're

815
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: out there chefs, lady chefs and and and gent chefs,

816
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: to like, what's it like working in the kitchen? Does

817
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: any of us resonate with you? Are you sick of

818
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: hearing about the gender division in the kitchen or do

819
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: you think this is still a conversation worth having. I

820
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: hope so, because we just had it, and I think

821
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: it's worth remembering too, Especially if you're listening to this

822
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: as someone who works in a kitchen, you're like, that's

823
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 1: not the way it is at all. What we're pulling

824
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: from is media portrayals of what's going on in kitchen.

825
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: So I'm really curious to know how this where are

826
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 1: the women chefs angle headline that's repeated over and over

827
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: and over again, how that does compare to the day

828
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: to day So mom sebitt house stuffworks, Dot com is

829
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: our email address for letters. You can also tweet us

830
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcasts, or messages on Facebook. And I've

831
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you right now. Well,

832
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 1: we've got a couple of letters here from our Couple

833
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: Speak episode, and this one from Brianna not only references

834
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: couple Speak but also friends speak, which I love, and

835
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 1: so I wanted to read it. She says, Oh my gosh,

836
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: I have never related to an episode more. My whole

837
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: life feels like it's centered on speaking to people I

838
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: love in baby talk. My husband and I who also

839
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: called each other boyfriend and girlfriend when we dated Caroline

840
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: and do husband and wife now, but not boyfriend and

841
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: girlfriend dog, which is way too adorable, thanks, she says.

842
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 1: We talk in high baby voices at home constantly. Words

843
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: are mushed together and mispronounced. We throw around sweetie and

844
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:03,800
Speaker 1: baby and the like all the time, and it's definitely

845
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: nauseating for anyone around us. We've done it pretty much

846
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,439
Speaker 1: since we started dating. The weirdest part is we often

847
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 1: communicate and baby speak through our dog, speaking as if

848
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: we were announcing the thoughts of our Boston Terrier Luna.

849
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 1: Love Good. We refer to each other as mommy and daddy.

850
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: When we were talking for her and mentioned us both,

851
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: It's always mommy daddy, never mommy and daddy, but it's

852
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: usually things like Mommy, I love you, but also I

853
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 1: love daddy, or when she's snuggling between us, I love

854
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,439
Speaker 1: cuddling Mommy Daddy. Who are we talking to? It has

855
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: me very very concerned about our future children and what

856
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: voices and terms will use, But after the podcast it

857
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 1: made me feel pretty good about our relationship. I also

858
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 1: use this with my best girlfriends from elementary and high school.

859
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: My friend Ashley has always been my little red haired

860
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: girl because I called her a little red haired girl

861
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 1: in second grade before I learned her name. My friend

862
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: Danielle is my kindred because when we met, we felt

863
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: very much alike. My friend Abby, who unfortunately passed away

864
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,879
Speaker 1: in April twenty eleven, was always Abigail last syllable said

865
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: with emphasis or bad abs, a nickname of her own

866
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 1: choosing and junior high, and she always told us you're

867
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 1: my best brand or best friend. In texting and Facebook messages.

868
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 1: All of us called each other visps or very important

869
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 1: sexy people. From the summer after high school to today.

870
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: It is so serious that our holidays are visp must

871
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: VISP giving, and the like, Boyfriends are visus and husbands

872
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,800
Speaker 1: are visions. I used to think all of this stuff

873
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: is just goofy names and patterns of speech left over

874
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 1: from our younger years, but after your podcast, I realize

875
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 1: how it's bonded us. People I've run into from high

876
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: school and said, oh, I love seeing you girls hang

877
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: out on Facebook through photos. It's so great to see

878
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: you all together. I mean, of course we do, why

879
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: wouldn't we, But I wonder how our pet group naming

880
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 1: is played into that. It's certainly worked as a way

881
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,240
Speaker 1: to strengthen our bond and help us cope while grieving

882
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 1: Abby's stuff, for sure, and that has only made our

883
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: friendship deeper. I don't care if people think we're ridiculous,

884
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: because I wouldn't have my visps any other way. So

885
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,439
Speaker 1: thank you, Brianna. I love all of that so much,

886
00:51:56,719 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 1: um as much as I love this letter from Haitie,

887
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,800
Speaker 1: who wrote, I just finished listening to your most recent podcast,

888
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: Couples Speak, and it made me smile to hear Caroline

889
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: say she and her boyfriend call each other girlfriend and

890
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: boyfriend because an X and I used to call each

891
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 1: other girlfriend and girlfriend. Also, because same sex couples are

892
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 1: often referred to as partners and we both found that

893
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,399
Speaker 1: a bit iroll inducing, we began to refer to each

894
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 1: other as partners in different law firms as a way

895
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: to poke fun at the terminology. She became girlfriend of girlfriend,

896
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: girlfriend and girlfriend, and I was girlfriend of girlfriend and associates.

897
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: When we called each other, we would often play out

898
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: a kind of long winded salutation, thank you for calling

899
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 1: girlfriend and associates. This is girlfriend speaking. How many I

900
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: used to see with your girlfriend needs. It all sounds

901
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 1: so silly and a bit iroll inducing, but it's something

902
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: that makes me smile so to think about, and I

903
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: thought you two might also get a kick out of it.

904
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 1: In the end, our two firms never did merge, but

905
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 1: we've remained the best of friends and still maintain a

906
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: unique way of speaking to each other and so many

907
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: inside jokes that others often feel we are speaking a

908
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: different language. So thanks so much, Katie and listeners. I

909
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: have to tell you that a couple speak letters have

910
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: been so fun to get um and if you would

911
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: like to send us your letter, you can do that. Mom,

912
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 1: stuff at how stup works dot com and links to

913
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of

914
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this one with links

915
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 1: to our sources so you can learn more about gender

916
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: and chefs. Head on over to stuff mom Never told

917
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thousands of

918
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:45,399
Speaker 1: other topics because it house stuff works dot com