1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, welcome 5 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: back to the show. My name is Matt Noel will 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: not be joining us today, but he is here in spirit. 7 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Mission controlled dec and most importantly, 9 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: you are you. You are here and that makes this 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. Before we do 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: our usual check in, we have a special announcement. Happy birthday, Mike. Yeah, 12 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: Mr Mike Wolfe, were belated believe your birthday was Tuesday? 13 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: Was yesterday? Yeah, but hey, Mike is twenty four today. 14 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: Everybody pretty awesome, Kelly says Hi, and uh hey, let's 15 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: get on with the show. But happ your birthday, Mike, 16 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: and nice cooler. Good to be back man, long time. Yeah, 17 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: I know, it's been an entire week and sum since 18 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: I've seen you, especially since we've been in the studio together. 19 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: And you know I cherished these times. And we're we're 20 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: coming to the end of the big birthday month here 21 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: at how stuff works Slash. I heart podcast Network where 22 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: so many of us were born around this time, and 23 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: just as a check in, I just want to let 24 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 1: you know that I got to karaoke for the first 25 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: time in a long time, because yeah, because it was 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: Annie's birthday, and I did this thing that I thought 27 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: you would have been proud of, but since you were 28 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: away on an adventure, you didn't get to witness it. Um. 29 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: I attempted to do Hip to Be Square, you know, 30 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: by Huey Lewis and the News, and then there's an 31 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: instrumental section that occurs in that song, and I had 32 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: prepared essentially it's not fully a monologue, but the dialogue 33 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: from one of the characters in American Psycho where he's 34 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: discussing Huey Lewis in the News, and I was I 35 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: was going to perform it during the instrumental section. Now, 36 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: let me just also say this because Mission Control was 37 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: there too. Mission Control was rocking out to some Britney Spears, 38 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: to some classic new metal, all kinds of really great songs. 39 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: Everybody was feeling it is a pact room, and I 40 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: got up to start doing mine, and it felt like 41 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: not a single person in the room even knew what 42 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: the song was, or at least didn't care. So I 43 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: turned around at one point just to be like, all right, guys, 44 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: we do it. Does anybody understand what this song is 45 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: or where it comes from? Crickets? So it's real embarrassing. 46 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: Now you're talking about, I believe the moment in the 47 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: film adaptation of American Psycho where Christian Bale's character begins 48 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: at an increasingly manic clip, uh, sort of describing his 49 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: his his criticism of Huey Lewis in the news well, 50 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: and also about how they've evolved, about how this this album, 51 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: in particular with this song on it, it's showing this 52 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: consummate professionalism and all of these things, and about critiques 53 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: of the song itself and the meaning behind it. And 54 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: this is as he's amping himself up to commit a murder. Correct. 55 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: I think that's brilliant. Well done, Thanks man, I really 56 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: thought you would have liked it. That it's okay, But hey, 57 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: you weren't there because you were on an adventure and 58 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: also late, Happy anniversary to you, my friend. Thank you, 59 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Matt and and likewise, because you 60 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: and Annie and Noel and our own Casey Pegram Tyler 61 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: and Tyler Klang uh and and more. We're missing someone. 62 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: Chandler is like almost in the club Chandler's debate. Yeah, 63 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: but but we do have quite a few August birthdays. Uh. 64 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: Circumstances found me, you know, I hate to miss Senning 65 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: recording of this show. But circumstances found me in Japan, 66 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: place where that mission control is very familiar with. Uh. 67 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: So what do you think about meandering intros? Sorry about that? 68 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: Let us know you can reach us directly. We are 69 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: one eight three three s T d W y t K. 70 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: Leave us a message. Tell us about specifically that intro, 71 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: and and ask us about Ben's crow story when when 72 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: he was in a different place, because hopefully he'll tell 73 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: that one too. It's a great story. That's very kind that. Yeah, 74 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: I'm coming in hot. My body doesn't know what time 75 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: it is. I have a vague awareness that it is 76 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: probably a Monday here. My body is just a cage. 77 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: My friend for words, you're about to say, that's true. Uh, 78 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: Camari's right, Uh not not camaros Uh Camara c h 79 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: I M E R A. This This is an interesting, 80 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: fascinating and as we will learn today disturbing con sept Really, 81 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: the best way to approach this is to ask ourselves, 82 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: what's the line between humans and other animals? Right? Because technically, 83 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: if we cast, if we put all the metaphysical stuff 84 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: and the spirituality and the religious stuff aside, biologically speaking, 85 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: human beings are defined as animals. So what makes us different? 86 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: For a long long time we thought humans have sults, 87 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: and that's still what people will say. But again that's 88 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: that's more of a spiritual religious reasoning, not really provable 89 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: yet not really provable yet true. When we looked at 90 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: something more secular for centuries and centuries, we said, while 91 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: the big difference between humans and all other animals would 92 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: be intelligence. The problem is even now, our species has 93 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: a real difficult time defining intelligence. And the more we 94 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: examine this line between humans and other animals, the more 95 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: we see that this line fuzzes right. The demarcation is 96 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: not as stark as we would wish. Well, yeah, because 97 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 1: there are plenty of non human animals that display all 98 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: sorts of intelligence. Crows, yeah, absolutely, crow cetacetions to be 99 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: some of the most prominent ones. And elephants elephants, um, 100 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 1: what are octopus in cephalopods, cephalopods, Yeah, all, all kinds 101 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: of different animals show some form of at least and 102 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: an awareness beyond what we would usually contribute to an animal, 103 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: right right, uh sapience, sentience, wisdom. For years, you remember 104 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: this met For years, various organizations around the world have said, 105 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: you know what, some of these animals, the ones we 106 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: just named, are in fact so intelligent that they meet 107 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: the legal threshold of personhood, meaning that they're cognitive abilities 108 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: are high enough that they should be guaranteed some of 109 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,239 Speaker 1: the same rights that we our species in theory gives 110 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: to every other human being. And today's episode approaches that 111 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: that same weird border. What is the line between human 112 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: and animal? And what happens when those lines even get 113 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: even further blurred, and where does it take us? Here 114 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: are the facts. You've probably heard the word chimera before. 115 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: The definition of chimera is is pretty cool. In folklore. 116 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: It's a very strange flex in mythology, specifically Greek mythology. 117 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: The chimera is this fire breathing monster. It's female, and 118 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: it's this strange anatomical mixtape. It's mostly a lion, right 119 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: at least in the front. It is a goat in 120 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: the middle, and it has a goat head coming out 121 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: of the back to the mid spine, and then it's 122 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: a dragon in the rear. Yeah right, I know most 123 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: of my chimeras from Magic the Gathering, I mean, as 124 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: well as Greek mythology. MTG has some some pretty great ones, 125 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: and they have some divergent takes, right, Oh, yeah, definitely. 126 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: I mean if you take the spell Heart chimera, that 127 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: was a big one for me back in the day. 128 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. We're not going to talk about this, 129 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: I want to hear at least there are a lot 130 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: of them, at least the card art and the way 131 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: they're described in the flavor text is very similar to 132 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: the traditional Greek mythology versions. So like three or more 133 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: usually distinct animals melded into a single creature. Sometimes it 134 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: gets down into you know, two fully separate heads. Sometimes 135 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: it's just one head with a body that's a little different, 136 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: but it's always a melding of creatures, right right, And 137 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: interestingly enough, in Greek mythology, the chimera is the child 138 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: of Typhon and Kidna, and it is also a sibling 139 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: of other multi headed creatures such as Cerebus, the three 140 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: headed canine that guards the underworld and the hydra. Oh yeah, 141 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: that's I didn't realize that it makes It doesn't make 142 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: perfect sense, but it makes better sense to have that 143 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:24,839 Speaker 1: be the mythological order of of what is it, uh, childhood, 144 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: monster birth. For those to actually have this and this, 145 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: it's strange because again we see the intersection between folklore, 146 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: mythology and modern fact. You know, a lot of our 147 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: nomenclature and terminology comes from these ancient stories, and that's 148 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: why the word chimera still exists here in these our 149 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: modern days. We have a scientific definition of chimera. Oh yeah, 150 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: So if you look to science, it's gonna say a 151 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: chimera is a single organism, one distinct thing that's come 152 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: post of two or more distinct different populations. And this 153 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: is important of cells that originated from different zygotes involved 154 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: in sexual reproduction. So this is this is highly important 155 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: for today's episode. Two very specific sets of cells from uh, 156 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: from two different zygotes. Right, yeah, this is huge, This 157 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: is crucial. So far from the lion Goat, dragon Street 158 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: hit of ancient mythology, actual chimeras are more subtle, at 159 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: least the ones that you may have met sometime in 160 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: your life. Not only have you may have met them, 161 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: but you may have never noticed anything different about them. 162 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: Chimerican occur naturally in humans. So let's say that you 163 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: or your loved one are carrying a child, and there 164 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: are two two kids, and the fetus is right, not 165 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: not quite you know, kids, but but fetuses that will 166 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: become human beings. And one of the fetuses dies or 167 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: is absorbed by its twin, leaving the surviving fetus with 168 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: two distinct sets of cells. So like identical twins maybe 169 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 1: doesn't matter as much, but fraternal twins this does matter. 170 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: Genetically they are different, and it's hard to really comprehend 171 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: what that means unless you apply it to a story 172 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: or an example exactly exactly. So usually, not only would 173 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: you not know the person you met is a chimera, 174 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: they probably don't know either, And typically people find out 175 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: about this by accident. In two thousand and two, there 176 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: was a woman named Karen Keegan. Karen Keegan needed a 177 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: kidney transplant, and so she underwent genetic testing to see 178 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: whether one of her family members could be a potential donor. 179 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: This is clear standard operating procedure. You check with the 180 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: family first, right in this situation, they did conduct the 181 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: test and what they found, Um, they found something that 182 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: completely caught them off guard, something they were not looking for. Yeah, 183 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: sometimes you'll hear no, you're not the father, but you 184 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: know what, you never hear no you are not the mother. 185 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: Uh See. The genetic testing that Karen and her family 186 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: underwent indicated that technically speaking, she could not be the 187 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: mother of her children that she birthed, that she birthed, yes, 188 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: her biological children. This through everyone for a loop. It 189 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: was like the end of usual suspects. What's going on here? 190 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: The doctors eventually learned that Karen, in fact was a 191 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: human chimera. This this is just one example, and they 192 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: probably would never have caught this unless that kidney transplant 193 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: need came up. Bone marrow transplants can also create chimera. Uh. 194 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: Bone marrow transplants, by the way, really interesting. There are 195 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: a couple of unidentified people who were more or less 196 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: cured of HIV by bone marrow transplants. In this case, 197 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: you don't need to have something freakish happen. Bone marrow 198 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: contains the cells that later develop into red blood cells. 199 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 1: Ye old stem cells, ye old stem cells, the old 200 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: stem cell. So what happens when someone has a bone 201 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: marrow transplant is that their own bone marrow is destroyed 202 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: somehow and it's replaced with marrow from this donor, and 203 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: this marrow, this stranger's marrow creates these new blood cells. 204 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: They continually are created. And that means that if you 205 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: receive a successful bone marrow transplant, for the rest of 206 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: your now trull life, you will carry genetically distinct cells 207 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: within your body that reproduce. You will become a chimera. Wow, 208 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: I've never thought of it that way. I didn't, I 209 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: had no idea. I haven't thought about it that way 210 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: because I guess you and I have been fortunate enough 211 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: in our lives to not have to delve into bone 212 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: marrow transplants. So very true, very true, We've been very fortunate. 213 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: But you know, when you're thinking about in this way, 214 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: it's in that particular example, it's a very good thing. 215 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: Like being a chimera is is great. You've got the 216 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: blood of someone else's since essentially in your body because 217 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: they helped you survive or they have to help you 218 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: continue on. Right, a chimera in this way, in a 219 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: scientific way just isn't scary at least, it's not nearly 220 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: as creepy as the Greek mythology monsters that existed because 221 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: of this word or this word was used to describe. 222 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: It's much. It's it's much. Um, it's much more inspirational. 223 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: It really look at us humans, go medicine, go science. 224 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: They Yeah, these camera don't seem near as frightening. You 225 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't notice it. And here's another thing. While we're talking 226 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: about pregnancy for a time, there's a study from I 227 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: want to say years so that indicates women during pregnancy 228 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: may function as chimera for a limited amount of time 229 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: because the fetus is creating, it's it's developing its own 230 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: cells and blood and everything is being shared in that 231 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: one that goes back to fetal cells. But oh, you 232 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: know what that makes dude, That makes total sense. Um, 233 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: My wife and I had had all these discussions. She 234 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: was learning a lot during our pregnancy. But how the 235 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: hormones in her body as well as having this know, 236 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: this being existing inside of her that she's sharing fluids with, 237 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: with all these stem cells in young blood and all 238 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: this her she was so ridiculously healthy during her pregnancy 239 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: so much more so than before or after. Not to 240 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: say she's unhealthy, it's just there was like it was 241 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: like she was had superpowers or something. It's kind of evolutions. Um, 242 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: get out of jail free pass. You know. Yeah, we've 243 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: we've seen we've seen different indicators of that. Wow, we 244 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: could do it in entire series of episodes on the 245 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: stuff that we as a species don't yet fully understand 246 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: about pregnancy. Oh yeah, but what if the idea of 247 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: being a kmaro. What if camaricism doesn't stop their Camaricism 248 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: is a word that I just made up. I accept it, 249 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: thank you. What if breakthroughs in medical technology can enable 250 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: us to create real life creatures closer and closer and 251 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: closer to the monsters described in Greek mythology. What if 252 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: we could create a melding of various animals or even 253 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: some sort of human animal hybrid. Could this be possible 254 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: and if so, what would we do? Will explore this 255 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy. 256 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: The answer to the first part of the question is 257 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: emphatically yes. Not only can we as a species do this, 258 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: we are already doing this. This is already happening. Pandora's 259 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: jars twisted open and there is no twisting it back. 260 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're we're heading towards the land of the centaurs. Everybody, 261 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: Just if we take it back to mythology, yeah, because 262 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: I mean, really think about it. Humans in our storytelling, 263 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,719 Speaker 1: in our legends, we've been pretty obsessed with humans and 264 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: animals becoming one thing. If you think about think about werewolves, 265 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: think about the skin walkers, like the version of skin walker, 266 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: those a little different thing, or sulky, you know, or 267 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: mermaids mermaids perfect where jaguar there. There's so many stories 268 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: of people through one means or another. Weirdly enough, it 269 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: wasn't evil for a long time. It just became evil later, 270 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: but through one means or another, people acquiring the attributes 271 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: of different animals, if not the ability to completely become 272 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: those animals. Yeah, for either advantageous means or perhaps because 273 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: they were um cursed in some way, right, some sort 274 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: of divine interventions. Usually how it starts, this obsession carry 275 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: Dawn for thousands and thousands of years in fact, and 276 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: an earlier episode, I don't know how long ago, now, Matt, 277 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: you and I explored the strange true story of the 278 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: so called human z Do you remember that, I do. 279 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: Was this a Soviet experiment back in the day, Yes, 280 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: but it was, it was. I can't remember if we 281 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: decided it was proven or not. I know for sure 282 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: that there were a ton of rumors. I think the 283 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: big question back in the day was was this propaganda 284 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: of some sort from either side? Um? But there appeared, 285 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 1: at least on the surface, to be experiments in the 286 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: Soviet Union to create a human chimpanzee hybrid. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 287 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: it was Ilya Ivanovich Ivanov in the nineteen twenties. The 288 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: idea was that one could combine the intelligence, or at 289 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: least the potential for intelligence, of the human being with 290 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 1: the physical prowess of a primate. And they said, well, 291 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,959 Speaker 1: out of all the great apes, the chimp is the 292 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: closest that we can find to the humans. So let's 293 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: get them together. Play some R and B, you know, lights, 294 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: some candles, put on some shot a see what happens. No, no, no, no, no, no. 295 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: Solely because it was not around in the the only 296 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: part of that, okay, all right, yeah, they they just 297 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: didn't have the music right. And you got it definitelyas 298 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: a huge role put on that New Swift album. You 299 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. So, so, as far as we know, officially, 300 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: these experiments during this time did not reach success. There 301 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: was not a viable offspring, and there will be. You know, 302 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: there are other reports of there was the one ape 303 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: that had lost some of its hair and its head 304 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: that exhibited human characteristics according to its observers. But none 305 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: of those, none of none of those experiments, none those creatures, 306 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: so far as we know, created a viable a viable example. 307 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: Oh that's right. It was a chimp called Oliver. A 308 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: chimpanzee called Oliver, Yeah, brought to brought to the US, 309 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: who people said he had a humanlike appearance, ability to 310 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: walk upright, and would rather hang out with humans versus chimps. 311 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: But uh, genetic testing confirmed he was a chimpanzee. And look, 312 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: chimpanzees are incredibly intelligent, very very smart. Don't mess with them, 313 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 1: don't try to outsmart them, don't definitely don't piss them off. 314 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: In Oliver's case, this chimpanzee was probably just very highly 315 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: acclimated to humans, right, had been raised with them. And this, 316 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 1: you know, this is its own unethical, sad thing. A 317 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: long story short, unless there is a huge secret UH. 318 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: In terms of Soviet hybridization experiments, we as a species 319 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: haven't seen a successful version of this. However, that doesn't 320 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: mean we stopped trying. You see, as it turns out, 321 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realists, scientists across the planet have not only 322 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: continued these experiments, they have made striking, breath taking forays 323 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: into this world of human animal hybridization. We found several 324 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: strange and again we cannot emphasize this enough. Real genuine, 325 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: actual examples of chimera being created today. So let's just 326 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,959 Speaker 1: jump through some of these. The first one, it's an 327 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:56,959 Speaker 1: attempt to make an increasingly intelligent ape or monkey in 328 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: this case of some sort. So there are some researcher 329 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: is in both China and the United States that have 330 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: attempted to create UH, a version of a monkey that 331 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: also carries a human gene, and this particular gene plays 332 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: a role in the development of the brain. And if 333 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: there's a study as according to the study that was 334 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: published in Beijing's National Science Review, UH there this all 335 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 1: occurred when researchers from the kun Ming Institute of Zoology, 336 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: this is a Chinese academy of Sciences as and they're 337 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: working along with the University of North Carolina and some 338 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: other institutions. They reported that there were eleven transgenic that 339 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: is what they're called transgenic reesus monkeys, uh, that that 340 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: were created through the studies here. And that's pretty that's 341 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: pretty intense that we were already creating something like this 342 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: before working on this episode. Personally, I had no idea 343 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: that there was already some kind of chimeric testing done 344 00:23:54,240 --> 00:24:00,479 Speaker 1: to create an intelligent animal that had been allowed to serve, vibe, 345 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: to be born, because a lot of the experimentation that 346 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: we have read about or we have encountered occurs at 347 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: the embryo stage, embryonic stage, just and it's mostly to 348 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: see if it would be possible to then take that, 349 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: you know, creature to term, like if we were going 350 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: to we could, this would be a viable specimen, right right, 351 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: But then for insert ethical consideration A through Z here, 352 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: we are going to terminate the growth of this this 353 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: bundle of cells and do it before you know, before 354 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: organs form and like a brain stem and a nervous 355 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: system forms and so on. And that's the attempt to 356 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: to circumvent the ethical quandaries that might occur if it's 357 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: allowed to reach a later stage of development. Yes, specifically, 358 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: what they did with these eleven reciss monkeys as they 359 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: they gave them human copies of a gene called mcph 360 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: one mc p h one, As you said, Matt, plays 361 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: a plays big role in brain development. Two startling things 362 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: happened here. According to this study, this small change, this 363 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: little bit of extra cognitive gas, did make a discernible difference. 364 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: The monkeys that carried the human copy of this gene 365 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: exhibited better short term memory. They also had faster reaction 366 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: time when compared with a control group of wild Reesus 367 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: monkeys who had not had their skull hoods tampered with. Right. Well, 368 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: it's interesting too if you delve deep into the research 369 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: and all the documentation and that kind of thing, it 370 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: makes you wonder how much just keeping them as not 371 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: wild reesus monkeys, if that, if that had any effect. 372 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: That's a great point. Yes, that the Oliver effect, right, 373 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: since we'll just we'll just call it that. Here's the 374 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: startling thing. Though, you said there were eleven monkeys, right 375 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: who had this gene transferred to them. These eleven monkeys 376 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: were not created all in one go. Eight of these 377 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: monkeys were first generation. The other three we're second generation, 378 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: meaning that this trait transferred. Yeah, which of course is 379 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 1: how genes are supposed to work. But still knowing that 380 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: that's even possible. All you really have to do is 381 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: create one chimera and then you could have you could 382 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: have endless offspring, depending on which species are using and 383 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: how long you need is time and mate, you are 384 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: entering another dimension. Yeah, So there you have it, real 385 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: life super monkeys with some strong air quotes around there. 386 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: But the story doesn't stop there. We are had this 387 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: in our notes as piggy people question mark. I know 388 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 1: that a lot of us listening today are huge fan 389 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 1: of Animal Farm, right in the work of George Orwell, 390 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: and there is a incredibly bleak, incredibly well written part 391 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: of that book where the animals. That's well, quick spoiler 392 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: Animal Farm. If you are not familiar with the plot 393 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 1: and you don't want it spoiled for you, and you've 394 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: been waiting for a chance to read it or watch 395 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,479 Speaker 1: one of the many adaptations, please consider this your spoiler warning. 396 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: Three to one spoilers. Alright, So an animal farm, the 397 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: human owners of the farm or the human authority figures 398 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: of the farm are are kicked out of power, right, 399 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: and the animals in the farm attempt to create a 400 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: utopian society wherein individuals contribute according to their ability and 401 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: are supported according to their need. Right. Sounds great on paper, Anyway, 402 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: it turns out that the pigs on the farm supplant 403 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: the former role of the humans, and they are real pills. 404 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: They're bad, and they betray all their all their ideals. Well, 405 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: and as it turns out, genetically. It's an interesting story too, 406 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: because humans and pigs are close enough on that mammalian 407 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: scale where you know the the what is the term 408 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 1: long pig yes to describe a human in certain ways 409 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: when consumed, when consumed, Yeah, we really aren't that different. No, no, no, 410 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: And pigs themselves, outside of war, while they're quite intelligent, 411 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: there's this very bleak moving segment of animal farm. I'm 412 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: sure a lot of us have already know what I'm 413 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: gonna say, where the surviving animals on the farm are 414 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,479 Speaker 1: looking from the humans to the pigs and back and 415 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: forth and they cannot tell the difference. So this is 416 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: is a comment of course, orwell means it to be 417 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: a comment on the cycles of supplanting and replacing power 418 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: structures and uh, you know how the dangers of gaining power. Yeah, 419 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: and it's also to what you say, man, it's very 420 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: interesting comment on the biological similarities. So some people maybe 421 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: not inspired by or well maybe very much inspired by 422 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: or a well, they probably read it, almost certainly, they 423 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: read it in school. Almost certainly they had to. Uh. 424 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: They decided to see whether it was possible to leverage 425 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: the biological similarities between the pig and the human, uh, 426 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: and to create chimera for a very specific purpose. Based 427 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: on multiple interviews, the m I T Technology Review estimated 428 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: that in twenty fifteen there were about twenty pregnancies of 429 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: pig human or sheep human chimera. And again, they're not 430 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: these aren't being born out right. As far as we know, 431 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: we know that these come with a very specific goal 432 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: attached to them, a chimera of pig and human for 433 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: sign human chimera or the same product with cheap and 434 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: humans are attractive because pigs and sheep both have organs 435 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: that are about the right size for human ball park, 436 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: right size for transplantation into a human being. And if 437 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: you can get the human cells in there to grow 438 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: a human liver in particular inside one of these creatures. 439 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: Then well, there you go. You've got an organ factory, 440 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: my friend, you do. You do not a perfect organ 441 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: factory for a number of reasons. But this is again 442 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: just the beginning. Immediate questions, right skirt, immediate questions. Why 443 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: have we not seen grown up hybrids yet? Well, first, 444 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: the ratio of human to animal cells in this sort 445 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: of creature is very, very low. We're not at the 446 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: point of poor sign people yet, We're We're not we're 447 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: not reaching peak pig people, peak pig people. There we go. 448 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: We are instead seeing things that would look exactly like 449 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: a pig or a monkey or or a sheep. But 450 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: their internal ratio is what changes. So there's uh, it's 451 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: really just a few genes. It's just a few duman altars, 452 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: just a tweak, just a tweek. Matt and I are 453 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: both like holding our pointer fingers and our thumbs mere 454 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: centimeters from each other and then just sort of twisting 455 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: in the air just a little Yeah, there we go. 456 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: What could co wrong? Uh? Second, as as I think 457 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: you said earlier, Matt, in most cases these hybrids have 458 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: never been allowed to develop for more than a few 459 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: weeks they've been terminated before. We're actual organs, um nervous 460 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: systems and so on have been given the chance to form. 461 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: So when one expert put it thus lee, they said, 462 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: you know, we're essentially just creating groups of cells to 463 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: see whether they can work together, coexist, and then we're 464 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: ending them before anything gets into that murky ethical quagmire. 465 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: It's not. It's only in approaching the dark gray area, 466 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: if you know, you only get them a couple of 467 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: like a week or two further I say, further into 468 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: the darkness. You may have had your ears pricked up 469 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,959 Speaker 1: a bit when you heard the concept of organ production. 470 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: What are we talking about? We'll tell you after a 471 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor and we're back. And one of 472 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: the big things we're gonna be really postulating or or 473 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: having thought experiments about a little later in the show, 474 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: just to give your heads up, is why do these things? 475 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: Why continue down these pathways? And as before the ad 476 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: break we talked about the organs are important. Human organs 477 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: are important. They are not enough human organs to be 478 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: transplanted for the needs of the humans on the earth 479 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: right now. And if we can make more, let's do it. 480 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: Let's find a way. I'm sorry, man, it's just I'm 481 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: smirking like that because halfway through I got this this 482 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: very vivid image of church organs. And so let's say 483 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: they're not enough church organs. We absolutely not. But but 484 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: to be clear, you're you're taught, you're making an incredibly 485 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: incredibly important point about things like hearts, lungs, livers, kidneys, eyes, Sarah, 486 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: people all over this planet right now that need a transplant, 487 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: that cannot get one, or they're on a list and 488 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: they have to just wait and hopefully they will live 489 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: long enough to see that. You know, organ transplantation is 490 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: a miracle of sorts of modern science. And uh, I 491 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 1: don't think we can downplay that, just like we spoke 492 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: about with the bone marrow transplants that we who imagined 493 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: that that could happen a couple hundred years ago, there's 494 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: no way, um, But now we are at a place 495 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: where we can do that. We just need the organs. 496 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: So let's jump to two thousand, nineteen July in particular, 497 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,879 Speaker 1: according to two places that we looked at, both the 498 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: academic journal Nature as well as the Ontario Canada paper 499 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: National Post. Apparently in July this year, a professor working 500 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: with the Institute of Medical Science with the University of 501 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 1: Tokyo and the Department of Genetics at Stanford University. This 502 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: professor received approval to begin inserting quote human stem cells 503 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: into rodents in an attempt to grow a human pancreas 504 00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: in the animal. Okay, great, we're we're moving forward to 505 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 1: do this. Right though, it is not as easy both 506 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: in practice to make it happen, and it's also not 507 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: as easy to get approval for something like this. Right. However, 508 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 1: there is precedent because earlier experiments have shown the ability 509 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: to grow to grow rat mouice chime era. Yes, so 510 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: we know that, and those some of those have been 511 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: allowed to live. Yeah, exactly. So you may think, Okay, well, 512 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: why is this news. It's July nineteen. This stuff has 513 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: already been happening. We've probably you may have seen something 514 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: in one of these magazines like Scientific Americans, Popular Sciences. 515 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: Exactly where where over the past ten years or so 516 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: these things have been discussed. Well, here's where we get 517 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: into all this stuff. Because approval for this experiment, it's 518 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: headed by a man named here Meetsu Nakauchi. Uh Approval 519 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: for the experiment came from a group of scientists who 520 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: were working directly with the Japanese government. Okay, and in 521 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: years past, the Japanese government had limited the quote creation 522 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: and experimentation of animal embryos imbued with human cells uh 523 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: to be only fourteen days, So they're only allowed to 524 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: live for fourteen days before I guess you have to 525 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: terminate them. Um. Now, in March of this year, the 526 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: Japanese government announced that that fourteen day window for testing 527 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 1: is actually going to get expanded, and they're going to 528 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: allow for within certain approved studies, for human animal hybrids 529 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: to be permitted to be brought to full term. Now 530 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: here's where it gets exciting for science, I guess, right, 531 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: Because if you can create a hybrid human rat uh 532 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: being that can grow a full pancreas, then that's great, right, 533 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: that's amazing. But you would have to go to full 534 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: term and then live and continue to live for that 535 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,439 Speaker 1: pancreas to develop big enough or long enough, are large 536 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: enough to be usable. But that's actually not the uh 537 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 1: the endgame of this study. This is just a first 538 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:14,959 Speaker 1: step towards what. Well, first it's gonna be mice. He's 539 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: and we're talking about rats. He got approved to do rats, 540 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: right right, that are quite a bit larger than rats, 541 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: especially laboratory mice. So he's starting with mice just to 542 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: make sure that it will work. Then his group is 543 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: moving onto rats, and then eventually they're moving on up 544 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: to pigs. And pigs is kind of the endgame for 545 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 1: this experiment, because that is how they're going to be 546 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: able to successfully grow um, you know, a pancreas or 547 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: whatever other organ at the correct size, right, Okay, yeah, 548 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 1: this makes sense because previously they've been able to grow 549 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: the pancreas for a mouse inside of a rat, and 550 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: they used islet cells to cure diabetes and mice. This 551 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: then becomes uh a series of steps right there, progressively 552 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: building up and hopefully learning mistakes, making errors at the 553 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 1: less damaging stages of the process. Right, yeah, exactly. But 554 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,720 Speaker 1: eventually the man pig is what they're going for. Pig person, 555 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: the big person. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. 556 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: I don't know man pig has a ring to it, though, 557 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: surely that's is that a superhero yet? No? You just 558 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: throw a bear in there, and then you've really got something. 559 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 1: That's what I'm thinking of that's what I'm thinking of 560 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: man bear pig from South South Park. Yes, I'm so 561 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: surreal man pig. Ah, Sorry, I've gett always weird images 562 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: of like what's the difference between man pig and a 563 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: pig man? Is it like man bat and batman? Is 564 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: one of them? Uh, a very wealthy dude in in 565 00:38:52,680 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 1: a strange costume and the other kill me girl man? Yeah, 566 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,720 Speaker 1: I feel highly insensitive to a lot of this stuff, 567 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: and I apologize to you, Ben, apologize to everyone, especially you. Paul. Uh. Yeah. 568 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: I think Paul back in twenties seventeen said he would 569 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: never forgive us, and I think he's holding to that. Paul, 570 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: Are you holding to that never forgive, always forget? Yeah, 571 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: he nodded solemnly. We are still in the dog house 572 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: of that guy is still in the pig man man 573 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: big dog house. This is getting complicated, but the science 574 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: here is important because one of the huge factors holding 575 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: this sort of experimentation back is not a matter of 576 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: technical expertise, nor is it a matter of um possessing 577 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: the correct technology. Instead, it is a matter of ethics exactly. 578 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 1: And one of the biggest issues here is, let's say 579 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: you're manipulating the genes and eventually a pig within this 580 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,399 Speaker 1: study we've been referencing, or a sheep or what. Yeah, 581 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: but in in another animal, and you're generally manipulating genes 582 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:09,399 Speaker 1: that are going to allow to create organs that are human. Right, 583 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: how do you prevent it from affecting the genes that 584 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: are going to affect brain development or intelligence? Because these animals, 585 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: whether you want to believe it or like it or not, 586 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: they are experiments. They are subjects of an experiment, and 587 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: they will be terminated most likely at some point. Even 588 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: if even if it's completely successful and they do grow 589 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: a pancreas, that that animal will be terminated most likely 590 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: in order to get that pancreas right, and if it's intelligent, 591 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: if it can understand what's occurring because it's been imbued 592 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: with human genes that have allowed for different brain growth. Uh, 593 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 1: that's where that's where things get really um just complicated. Father, 594 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:03,800 Speaker 1: What is my purpose? Yeah? Why? Why you big child? 595 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: You are my replacement liver because I'll be damned devised 596 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: up drinking. Well. Yeah, then you get into the ethical 597 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:17,240 Speaker 1: issues of does does this creature deserve rights of some 598 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: sort or are we dealing with human experimentation. That point, 599 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: how what percentage of human experimentation is occurring? Right now? 600 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 1: Right right right? Where is the tipping point genetically? Does 601 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 1: it need to be defined? Is an animal still for 602 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 1: legal purposes? An animal not deserving of rights if it 603 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,879 Speaker 1: is only human? Right? And then it hits fifty one, 604 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: and it's like, oh now you can vote your conscience. Yeah, 605 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,479 Speaker 1: I mean this is clearly that's a that's a made 606 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: up experiment there, but it is. It is intensely problematic, 607 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 1: and it does lead into stuff they don't want you 608 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: to know. They being private institutions fundy this research. They 609 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 1: be state actors that are playing fast and loose with 610 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:10,760 Speaker 1: international conventions on how how to conduct experiments. Right, there's 611 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: there's a very interesting point that you raised off airmat 612 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: that we should explore before we we continue here, and 613 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:23,760 Speaker 1: that is, let's say these things do happen, more creatures 614 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 1: get drawn into these experiments, what will they be used for? First? 615 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: Obviously organs? Right, Oh yeah, that's what we keep talking about. 616 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: It's just it's the thing we've been attempting to do 617 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: um as humans for quite a while now. Yeah, it's 618 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,959 Speaker 1: a huge business. Does on both sides of the law. 619 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 1: Imagine how many people if we want to assume the 620 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: the utopian vision of the future, if we want to 621 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: be super optimistic about this, just imagine how many millions 622 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: of people could have their lives saved if medical researchers 623 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: are able to grow bespoke or custom replacement organs. Why 624 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: would you languish for years on a recipient waiting list 625 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 1: when a creature with the perfect liver for you could 626 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: be grown and mature and then harvested and have that 627 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: liver transplanted within a matter of months. It seems pretty compelling, 628 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 1: but you you get into the the questions that arise 629 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 1: when you're talking about cloning right, right, because technically speaking, 630 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: in theory, it is possible for you and for Paul 631 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: and I and all of us listening to have a 632 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: clone of ourselves grown. Right, do some uh do some 633 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,319 Speaker 1: sort of very Dr Frankenstein asks stuff to prevent a 634 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: brain from forming or coming into the equation and then 635 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:04,000 Speaker 1: just have your spare set or organs? Right expensive to maintain, 636 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: but at what price? At what price immortality? You know? 637 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 1: And what you know? Does that clone deserve any kind 638 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: of rights? Uh? So, the aim here would ultimately be 639 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 1: the ability to grow replacement organs for almost every single 640 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,919 Speaker 1: original organ in a human body, minus, of course, one 641 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:31,319 Speaker 1: would assume the brain. I don't you know, I don't know. 642 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: I was thinking about this too, like if if it 643 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,440 Speaker 1: were possible, or if it would ever be possible for 644 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 1: certain parts of the brain to be replaced, which gets 645 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,280 Speaker 1: us into that ship of thesis, experiment and problem very quickly. 646 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, obviously, and our pal Damian Williams 647 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: love this. Obviously, we're already reaching a point where we 648 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 1: have to redefine what is considered consciousness in general. Um. 649 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: And I wondered when we were looking at this matter, 650 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 1: I wondered if there would ever be someone who just 651 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,240 Speaker 1: to be edgy, you know, fifty years in the future 652 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,239 Speaker 1: or something, says, my body is fine, but I want 653 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,759 Speaker 1: a brain transplant. Just grow a new brain and put 654 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,439 Speaker 1: it in this thing, and then, you know, just make 655 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: sure that's me. That's insane. I don't think it would. 656 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't see it working unless we had 657 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 1: some way to sounds insane just to say it, Unless 658 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:41,360 Speaker 1: we had some way to replicate the synaptic actions and 659 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:46,399 Speaker 1: the neurochemical processes that function as the fingerprint of consciousness 660 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: if I mean, if that is truly what yo, Yes, yes, 661 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,759 Speaker 1: you're right, you're absolutely right. But I do think at 662 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,759 Speaker 1: some point we'll be able to have some kind of 663 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,920 Speaker 1: technology that maps up rain so fully at such a 664 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,440 Speaker 1: such a minute level that we can at least print 665 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,400 Speaker 1: physically what what that thing looks like. But whether or 666 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:18,560 Speaker 1: not it contains memories and experience and knowledge. Yeah, that's 667 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 1: that's one thing that's fascinating, right because now we were 668 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:24,840 Speaker 1: at the top of the show said we would brack 669 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 1: at the conversation about the soul, But it inevitably creeps in, 670 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:33,000 Speaker 1: doesn't it, Because now we're we're saying that, um, if 671 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,759 Speaker 1: consciousness or essentience for each individual is something more than 672 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,680 Speaker 1: what can be mapped in that one specific organ in 673 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: the human body, than just foxing around with that one organ. Uh, 674 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 1: It's it's a lot like, yeah, I mean, you're just 675 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:55,240 Speaker 1: fixing part of the system. It's it's kind of like saying, um, okay, 676 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: let's say let's say the brain is just hardware right 677 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,480 Speaker 1: where the processes electricity like a computer, and so you 678 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:08,720 Speaker 1: can you can take apart the hardware. You can replace 679 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:13,080 Speaker 1: the motherboard or the graphics process or something. But if 680 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 1: you don't have anything to plug it in to, that 681 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 1: change does not matter. It is nil. Is the difference 682 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: is nil. The problem is moot. So maybe you gotta 683 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: get nos in there, man, Right, Yeah, I knows sure. 684 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,359 Speaker 1: Perhaps that is Perhaps that is something approaching you know, 685 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,719 Speaker 1: the seed of God, or you know the electricity that 686 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,880 Speaker 1: comes when you plug it into an outlet or the 687 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,880 Speaker 1: matrix or the matrix or the matrix. Yes, maybe that 688 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:44,400 Speaker 1: is what volume four is about, right, That's what it is, 689 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:53,160 Speaker 1: matrix volume for the hard intelligence problem. Perhaps perhaps perhaps uh, 690 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 1: there's there's another experiment too. While we're talking about the brain. 691 00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 1: This is another use um possible you for hybrids. There 692 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:08,600 Speaker 1: are many, many experiments, especially experiments evolving cognition, that we 693 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 1: cannot legally and officially conduct because we would have to 694 00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 1: be humans experimenting on other humans. So Alzheimer's research, right, 695 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,759 Speaker 1: is a huge field, and there's a lot of potential 696 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: for improvement in Alzheimer's is as anyone can attest a 697 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:36,400 Speaker 1: debilitating tragic condition. When we make models of the decay 698 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:42,760 Speaker 1: involved in Alzheimer's we could potentially make much more robust, 699 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,400 Speaker 1: much more helpful models. If we used the brains of 700 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:53,360 Speaker 1: human monkey hybrids, but we would have to allow them 701 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:59,560 Speaker 1: to decay so many times, with so many you know, 702 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,920 Speaker 1: sub to get that robust model, right, we could create 703 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,400 Speaker 1: other brain disease models where it's possible to allow a 704 00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:12,480 Speaker 1: condition to progress beyond what would be ethical or legal 705 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,680 Speaker 1: to do with a full human being. And even there, 706 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,000 Speaker 1: isn't that sticky? Isn't that already? Doesn't that already make 707 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,399 Speaker 1: you feel kind of gross? The fact that we had 708 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 1: to say full human because what everything we have learned 709 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,560 Speaker 1: about our species throughout the span of recorded history, everything 710 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:35,080 Speaker 1: we have learned indicates that we're really starting to screw 711 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,960 Speaker 1: up when we start referring to any part of a 712 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,719 Speaker 1: population as full human versus something else, you know what 713 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,760 Speaker 1: I mean? So maybe we as a species simply don't 714 00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:50,319 Speaker 1: have the philosophical or ethical chops to address this, and 715 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,680 Speaker 1: that goes to our concerns, right. James McDonald, writing for 716 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,880 Speaker 1: j Store Daily, phrases this in a in a succinct fashion. 717 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,440 Speaker 1: He says, in men ways, the ethical concerns are thornier 718 00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 1: than the technical aspects. Direct transfer of tissue between animals 719 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 1: and humans raises concerns about animal diseases crossing over to humans, 720 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,480 Speaker 1: potentially threatening a large population. I can see that absolutely. 721 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,280 Speaker 1: Another concern, he says, is that animals developing with human 722 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:25,279 Speaker 1: cells might somehow develop human physical or mental characteristics. The 723 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,640 Speaker 1: idea of, say, a pig with a human mind being 724 00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:34,560 Speaker 1: used as an organ donor, is horrifying. Agreed. Luckily, so 725 00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,160 Speaker 1: far as we know this, human mind development probably would 726 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:41,200 Speaker 1: not happen by accident. Emphasis I'm probably which bothers me. 727 00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:45,120 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but certainly, But McDonald says, 728 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,520 Speaker 1: even if human tissues somehow migrated to an animal's developing brain, 729 00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,480 Speaker 1: it would still probably develop his animal brain tissue. But 730 00:50:54,680 --> 00:51:01,719 Speaker 1: is probably enough. Yeah, it's you think so, But your 731 00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,840 Speaker 1: kidneys are fine. I know exactly. I don't. I don't 732 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,440 Speaker 1: have a pressing. Well, I that's not true. I have. 733 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,439 Speaker 1: There are members in my family that right now need 734 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,759 Speaker 1: a heart I have I have. I'm thinking of a 735 00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:18,840 Speaker 1: person in particular that needs a heart transplant or his 736 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,920 Speaker 1: you know, his life will be cut short almost certainly 737 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,759 Speaker 1: so having this. If we had access to this, I 738 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:30,400 Speaker 1: would have to I I would have to advocate for it. 739 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,640 Speaker 1: It's sort of like at various times in the course 740 00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,480 Speaker 1: of stem cell research. Politicians who are very much against 741 00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:42,640 Speaker 1: it for usually for a re election or election purposes, 742 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:47,160 Speaker 1: for anything. Yeah, they they pull to one eight when 743 00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,520 Speaker 1: they realized they could help a loved one. Yeah, or 744 00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,880 Speaker 1: just they have that one degree of separation with somebody 745 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,359 Speaker 1: who it is fully impacting. Right, We've seen that over 746 00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:01,319 Speaker 1: and over and over with again with any issue. You absolutely, 747 00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:05,640 Speaker 1: and so now we end in media arrests. We end 748 00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,680 Speaker 1: in the middle of the story, and we have to 749 00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:11,400 Speaker 1: ask ourselves and ask you as well, what next. Again, 750 00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:18,280 Speaker 1: here is the situation as it stands. Barring some global catastrophe, 751 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:23,400 Speaker 1: experimentation in this field will continue because the possible potential 752 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:28,160 Speaker 1: benefits are just too impressive. They're too uh, too much 753 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:33,120 Speaker 1: of a beneficial paradigm shift. And you know, we haven't 754 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:36,279 Speaker 1: even gotten into some of the other really out their 755 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:39,400 Speaker 1: ideas about what this could be or mean barely touched it. 756 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:44,400 Speaker 1: Super soldiers possibly, yeah, super soldiers or superspies, because imagine 757 00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:47,080 Speaker 1: if if you could have a cat human hybrid that 758 00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,560 Speaker 1: looks just like a cat, but has the intelligence of 759 00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:52,399 Speaker 1: a human and can communicate in some way and it's 760 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:56,120 Speaker 1: just spying on you know whatever, housing Maybe it's in 761 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,640 Speaker 1: your house, you know what I mean. I mean, think 762 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:00,359 Speaker 1: about that. I don't I have cat, so I don't 763 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,560 Speaker 1: trust them anybody as everybody who as a cat as 764 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,359 Speaker 1: a companion, don't trust them. I love them, just don't 765 00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,879 Speaker 1: trust them. I think that's the most prejudice thing I've 766 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,960 Speaker 1: ever said, and stand behind it. I love the animals 767 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,160 Speaker 1: that live with me, I do not trust them. That's 768 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,520 Speaker 1: what dogs are for. They're already too smart. I mean, 769 00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:23,520 Speaker 1: if we're if we're gonna make a hybrid, it's that's dangerous. 770 00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,680 Speaker 1: You know, didn't we talk about how U S intelligence 771 00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:31,239 Speaker 1: agencies tried to make cyber cats before. Yeah, and then also, uh, 772 00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:36,000 Speaker 1: cats domesticated themselves, right, and they you know, you ever 773 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,319 Speaker 1: look at a pug and you think tang could have 774 00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:43,680 Speaker 1: been a wolf. Cats did not undergo that same sort 775 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:48,960 Speaker 1: of eugenic practice. They just showed up there. You'll have food, 776 00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,600 Speaker 1: Give me more of that food. Yeah. They said they 777 00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,120 Speaker 1: solved the rat problem, and they kind of did in 778 00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:57,719 Speaker 1: a lot of cases, but then they didn't leave. You 779 00:53:57,800 --> 00:53:59,680 Speaker 1: know what I mean, they solved the hard rat problem. 780 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:03,799 Speaker 1: It's on the hard rap problems. But uh, speaking of 781 00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:08,879 Speaker 1: solving hard problems, we're faced with a geopolitical dilemma here too, 782 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:13,960 Speaker 1: because countries and institutions that enforce ethical conventions in this 783 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:18,840 Speaker 1: regard may end up falling behind. We're already seeing this 784 00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:24,480 Speaker 1: sort of splintering of of experimental heft and uh and 785 00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:30,000 Speaker 1: location of the pioneering research because these experiments are happening, 786 00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,800 Speaker 1: you know, the more extreme ones are happening in countries 787 00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:38,359 Speaker 1: where it's a little easier to bend certain regulations. Well, 788 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,880 Speaker 1: we're talking about Japan, and you know that one in particular, 789 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,400 Speaker 1: You're not necessary. It doesn't strike me as a country 790 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,759 Speaker 1: that would bend these rules too much, unless, of course 791 00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,640 Speaker 1: you go back to World War two and Unite and 792 00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:53,960 Speaker 1: some of that kind of experimentation. But it's such a 793 00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,680 Speaker 1: different Yeah, absolutely right, Matt I was. I was specifically 794 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:05,359 Speaker 1: thinking of China, but already the different scientific communities of 795 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:10,000 Speaker 1: the country of trying to places based there are raising 796 00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:14,280 Speaker 1: hell with objections to what they see as lacks ethical 797 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,960 Speaker 1: regulations and so on. There have been a number of 798 00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,520 Speaker 1: notable experiments in the past years that have pushed the 799 00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:25,799 Speaker 1: envelope there to various extreme degrees. The thing, the thing 800 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:30,880 Speaker 1: that we'll run into here is that private entities that 801 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:35,919 Speaker 1: are state sponsored can make enormous progress on this, and 802 00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:42,480 Speaker 1: it becomes scary when we realize that right now there's 803 00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:48,360 Speaker 1: very strong potential for this right, but there's not provable 804 00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:53,960 Speaker 1: precedent yet. As soon as provable precedent exists something that 805 00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:59,680 Speaker 1: can be reproduced with let's say, gosh, even a seventy 806 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:06,879 Speaker 1: eight chance of success, then people and institutions will rethink 807 00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:11,280 Speaker 1: whatever existing ethical considerations they have, because then it becomes 808 00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:16,319 Speaker 1: a question of what do you place what what? What 809 00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:21,160 Speaker 1: is higher on your list of important things, your moral 810 00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:26,320 Speaker 1: code or your ability to live to see tomorrow, ability 811 00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,319 Speaker 1: to live to see tomorrow, as well as creating a 812 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:33,400 Speaker 1: viable business plan true, oh my gosh, even worse. Yes, 813 00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:39,399 Speaker 1: So what what we'll see is going to be going 814 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:44,160 Speaker 1: to be darkly fascinating. The There will either be a 815 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:49,120 Speaker 1: see change in the way we approach ethical concerns of 816 00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:54,160 Speaker 1: the past or why possibly there will be very well 817 00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,600 Speaker 1: funded secret programs. I don't know how long they would 818 00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,080 Speaker 1: be able to remain secret. Well, we've already kind of 819 00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,680 Speaker 1: covered this before, especially when we were talking with Josh 820 00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,840 Speaker 1: Clark about his show The End of the World. The 821 00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:10,920 Speaker 1: experimentation that's going on in small labs that are just 822 00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,279 Speaker 1: you know, you pay for the time, nobody asked any 823 00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:17,120 Speaker 1: questions you do your experimentation. That's occurring across the world, 824 00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,080 Speaker 1: especially in the United States. True, if you have an 825 00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,840 Speaker 1: outfit that is working on something and you're being successful 826 00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,920 Speaker 1: at it and nobody is checking or approving your experiments, 827 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:36,800 Speaker 1: especially in this environment where uh, certain things are certain 828 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:42,360 Speaker 1: things like genes or the technology applying genes is allowed 829 00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:48,800 Speaker 1: to be patented. That comes troublingly close to a private 830 00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:52,760 Speaker 1: entity being able to own, for lack of a better word, 831 00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:58,320 Speaker 1: an entire form of life. Yeah, so imagine, you know, 832 00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,640 Speaker 1: imagine it's not just uh pig people or man pig, 833 00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:08,440 Speaker 1: it's uh Comcast pig people. Pig people powered by Comcast, 834 00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:14,040 Speaker 1: and they represent X number of viewers every week, they subscribers. 835 00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,680 Speaker 1: You know, I just picked Comcast because they have a 836 00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:19,520 Speaker 1: monopoly in certain parts of the US. I don't think 837 00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:24,320 Speaker 1: they're in the camary game yet. Dude, gosh, I just 838 00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,920 Speaker 1: had a really dark vision of web bots, you know, 839 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:29,960 Speaker 1: and and all that kind of thing. But in this case, 840 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:35,320 Speaker 1: it's some some company that has patented a certain human 841 00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,440 Speaker 1: type or a huge diversion of a human where they 842 00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:41,840 Speaker 1: just mass produced them and put them in housing somewhere 843 00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,120 Speaker 1: and then attached them to the television so they can 844 00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:48,240 Speaker 1: have a certain number of viewers for every episode of 845 00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,040 Speaker 1: whatever thing it is. Yeah, wow, that would not make 846 00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:54,280 Speaker 1: any sense. But did their their rights count? I don't know. Well, 847 00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,600 Speaker 1: let us let us know what you think. So long 848 00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,600 Speaker 1: and short of it is that something like this is 849 00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:04,800 Speaker 1: never doable because again, the potential benefits are just too 850 00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:08,160 Speaker 1: good for anyone to really walk away. But will this 851 00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:12,080 Speaker 1: end up being a dystopian nightmare? Will this end up 852 00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:16,880 Speaker 1: being the utopian answer to uh so many problems today? 853 00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:20,000 Speaker 1: Where is the answer, as it so often is, somewhere 854 00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:23,480 Speaker 1: disappointingly in between those two goal posts, where it ends 855 00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:26,720 Speaker 1: up being a great opportunity for anyone with a lot 856 00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:29,080 Speaker 1: of money to get a great organ, but for everybody 857 00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:32,920 Speaker 1: else or even worse, Look at the way medicine works 858 00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:36,560 Speaker 1: in many countries, especially in the US. Now, imagine that 859 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:40,120 Speaker 1: you are able to buy let's say, of a replacement 860 00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:43,840 Speaker 1: uh kidney or something that that you need to live, 861 00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:50,120 Speaker 1: but because it is privatized, you are required to you know, 862 00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:54,000 Speaker 1: you're essentially renting or making you have an organ mortgage. 863 00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:59,400 Speaker 1: That's gonna happen organ mortgages, I know, and it sounds 864 00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:02,560 Speaker 1: like if you didn't speak English. Organ mortgage sounds like 865 01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,560 Speaker 1: a pretty cool phrase. It really does. But in the end, 866 01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:07,400 Speaker 1: it just means a lot of money coming out of 867 01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:09,440 Speaker 1: your paycheck every month. And then what happens if you 868 01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:13,800 Speaker 1: can't pay The bank buys your organ, right or it 869 01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,600 Speaker 1: just gets your organ And then do they decide how 870 01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:21,640 Speaker 1: you're how you concentrate your labor to pay them back? Tricky, tricky, 871 01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:25,320 Speaker 1: tricky stuff. Let us know you can. You can contact 872 01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,120 Speaker 1: us directly. We're on Facebook, We're on Instagram, We're on Twitter. 873 01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:33,160 Speaker 1: Please do check out our group page. Here's where it 874 01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,760 Speaker 1: gets crazy. Say hi to our favorite part of the show, 875 01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:39,240 Speaker 1: you and your fellow listeners, as well as our super moods. 876 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:41,000 Speaker 1: All you have to do to join is no who 877 01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:44,320 Speaker 1: hosts this show? Remember my name is Matt. That guy's 878 01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:48,440 Speaker 1: usually know they call him Ben. You're you, so remember 879 01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,280 Speaker 1: you kind of host the show too. That's Mission Control. Yeah, 880 01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:55,240 Speaker 1: that's Mission Control. And any other superproducer that rules our way. 881 01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:57,360 Speaker 1: Name them come on in. You know you only have 882 01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:00,680 Speaker 1: to name one or two or whatever. Honestly, just just 883 01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:03,640 Speaker 1: between us, I mean don't tell anyone else I said this, 884 01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,240 Speaker 1: but if you could make us laugh, you're probably in 885 01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:10,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, please, Well, welcome to you of good you 886 01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:13,920 Speaker 1: of good humor. Hey, Matt, what if people hate the 887 01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:17,360 Speaker 1: social means, if people hate the social needs, well then 888 01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:21,200 Speaker 1: I applaud you and uh join me somewhere on the 889 01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:25,080 Speaker 1: streets of Atlanta and we will will chat uh and 890 01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:28,000 Speaker 1: be ben too. Obviously. Just head on over to a 891 01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:31,400 Speaker 1: dive bar near Pont City Market. You'll find us. You 892 01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:34,000 Speaker 1: can also call us. We have a phone number where 893 01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:38,000 Speaker 1: you have three minutes to say whatever is on your mind. 894 01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,840 Speaker 1: All we ask is that if you do not want 895 01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:44,840 Speaker 1: this message to be air, let us know in the message, 896 01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:47,160 Speaker 1: or if you want your voice to be you want 897 01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:48,280 Speaker 1: to be it on the air, but you want your 898 01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:49,640 Speaker 1: voice to be changed in the name not to be 899 01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:53,640 Speaker 1: use blah blah blah blah. Uh one eight three three 900 01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:57,840 Speaker 1: st d w y t K. That's the number. If 901 01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:00,280 Speaker 1: you don't want to do any of that stuff, you 902 01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,640 Speaker 1: can write to us a good old fashion email. We 903 01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:26,080 Speaker 1: are conspiracy at I heart radio dot com. Stuff they 904 01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:27,720 Speaker 1: don't want you to know is a production of I 905 01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,560 Speaker 1: Heeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my 906 01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:33,600 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, 907 01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:35,520 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.