WEBVTT - Behind the Bastards' Robert Evans & The Iran-Contra Arms Dealing Scandal (Part II) 0:00:01.040 --> 0:00:04.440 Officer. I know you found that half empty forty in 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:08.240 the center console of my car, but my heart tells 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:11.280 me I haven't been drinking tonight. You know, I obeyed 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:13.760 the speed limit at all times. I wasn't going sixteen 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:15.480 to fifty, say, or. 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.079 As drunk people often do, they're going like twenty five 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:30.800 in a sixty. Hey everyone, I'm at Helms and this 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:35.639 is Snaffo, the show about history's greatest screw ups. It's 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:39.559 part chat show, part history lesson, and a big old 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:44.280 group therapy session for all of humanity. We're back for 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.360 part two of the Iran contra Affair with our incredible 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.720 guest Robert Evans. Now, if you haven't heard the previous episode, 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:55.520 I strongly suggest you jump back and listen to that episode, 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:59.120 and then jump forward again to this moment right now 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:01.960 and jump back into this episode, because we are going 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:07.720 to wrap up our incredible recounting of the Iran contra affair. 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.440 Robert Evans, of course, is the host of the incredible 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.840 podcast Behind the Bastards, which I highly recommend tons of 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.400 incredible episodes. The best two episodes are the ones on 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:20.400 which I was a guest. 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:23.720 Also on that podcast, we should certainly check out the 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:25.399 one on Curtis Jarvin that you guessed it for. 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:27.520 Yeah, that was a fun one. That was a particularly 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:30.000 interesting one. Robert, thank you so much for coming back. 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:30.840 Thanks for having me back. 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.720 I am going to give a quick recap for our audience, 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.319 just in case there's been a little gap in time. 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:42.040 So here's what went down before we move on. It's 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:44.880 the nineteen eighties. Reagan was president and quite simply, he 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:49.200 hated Commis, like he really hated them. So he funded 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:54.440 paramilitaries in Nicaragua called the Contras through the CIA in 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.800 the hopes that they would defeat the Kami government run 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:01.840 by the socialist group the Sandinies. Does Separately, the US 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.400 imposed and embargo on Iran due to their support of 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.600 the group Hezbolah, a US designated terrorist group that had 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.840 taken twenty five Americans hostage in nineteen eighty four. To 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:16.760 save those hostages, Reagan's National Security Council guys, including Lieutenant 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:21.480 Oliver North, secretly decided to trade weapons in exchange for 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:26.680 some cash and the release of said hostages. Pretty dodgy, 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:31.160 especially considering that there was once again a literal embargo 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:32.200 against Iran. 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.160 Yeah, that we applied a status to Iran that was 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.639 these guys, we absolutely shouldn't be selling missiles too. Yeah, 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:42.560 that was there, that was their legal status. 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:47.160 Yeah, you could sell this up as hey, we're never 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:49.959 ever going to sell missiles to Iran, but also Iran, 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:59.400 do you guys want some missiles? Right? Yeah, sure. Iran 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:03.440 was all so at war with Iraq and they needed 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:06.840 weapons for this war. Oh yeah, And they had in 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:09.960 fact secretly reached out to the US to ask if 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:12.840 they could buy some weapons off us, and the answer, 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:17.080 of course should have been no, we're not dealing with you. 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.080 There's an embargo going on. But Ali North and his 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.679 bosses at the National Security Council saw an opportunity here. 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.240 They wanted to win for Reagan, i e. They wanted 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:32.560 to free some hostages and to avoid another Carter esque snafu, 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:36.240 so they decided to go ahead and make a deal 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:40.000 with the Iranians. They would secretly sell weapons to the 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:44.640 Iranians on the condition that American hostages in Lebanon would 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:45.640 be released. 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:50.440 That's yeah, it's and people we don't talk enough about 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.920 the Iran Iraq war, like just so that people know 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:56.600 this is like a World War two like t kind 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.200 of conflict in terms of you've got these mass human 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.880 wave rges like particularly that like Iran is doing because 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.600 they have they lack so much else in terms of 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:09.000 military infrastructure, and these huge tank battles that very much 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.640 are like something out of the Second World War, and 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.640 hideous casualty numbers in the US. By the way, we 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:17.640 are heavily involved in both sides. We kind of helped 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.719 push Saddam in the early stages of the war. We 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.080 provided like targeting assistance and whatnot for him, and obviously 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.160 we're about to do that for Iran. This is such 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:29.120 a messy time and history for us in such a 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.560 horrible war that doesn't get covered enough. 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:36.560 Amen. I find it interesting the you know, in a 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:40.880 situation like this, you know, there's clearly political motivation to 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:45.320 sort of protect Reagan from another you know, from the 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:47.760 fallout of a hostage situation. But then of course there's 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:52.040 the very human concern for these hostages and the predicament 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.720 that they're in, right, And I again, this is sort 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:56.680 of getting back to one of my earlier questions, but like, 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:00.839 is it possible to parse the motives here? You know, like, 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:06.640 is it is this more about the political machinations. Uh, 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:12.479 and and sort of protect protecting Reagan's political re election possibilities, 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:16.120 or is it we got to get these Americans home? 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:21.120 And again, it's some of both, some of both, And 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:23.240 the more cynical side of me is like, maybe it's 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:25.040 more about the political. 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:27.479 I think at the at the at the level of 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:29.760 like Alie North and certainly like people in the Reagan 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:32.440 White House, it's it's mostly politics, but you have a 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.640 lot of people involved at different levels, and including folks 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:37.200 who like know some of the people who have been 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.360 taken of course, and so there's absolutely folks who are 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:42.919 involved in this too. Who's primary or at least a 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:45.800 major concern just like, well, but my buddies captive too. 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.440 And do you think the American military has an incredible 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.880 track record of just going after our own and and 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:56.120 and like you know fighting you know this recent Uh, 0:05:56.440 --> 0:06:02.719 it's important from what's that It's I wasn't from morale, right, Well, sure, yeah, 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.400 you're right, but yeah, this extraction from Iran that just 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:10.400 happened a month or two ago was an incredible, incredible 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.320 story and does speak to it. I think is a 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:17.520 is a pretty beautiful ethos in American general disposition, but 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.719 certainly our military disposition of like we don't we leave 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:22.840 no one behind, we go back and get people. 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.960 It's this it's interesting because like the you also have 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.400 around this time, these these conspiracy theories about like soldiers 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:34.320 left behind in Vietnam that really, certainly by by seventy 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.520 nine was not accurate, Like there weren't huge numbers of 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:40.760 Americans like in captivity in Vietnam, like they would have 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.560 had nothing to benefit from just keeping those guys. But 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.760 because there is this attitude, this deeply, especially among for 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:49.200 former servicemen, that like, we don't leave people behind, the 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.120 belief that there were all these guys still trapped in 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.520 Vietnam is in this period of time a huge political 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.920 like football, right, Like it's a thing that that is 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:02.400 like massively important to a lot of people just because like, 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.160 even though it's not accurate that those guys are there, 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:07.680 because the idea that people were left behind was so 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:09.080 offensive to some right. 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:11.600 Right, all right, Well, let's jump a couple of years 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.880 later to the fall of nineteen eighty six, and we're 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:17.760 actually now we're going to go back to Nicaragua. So 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:21.240 in October of that year, a US military plane was 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:26.800 shot down in Nicaragua. The lone survivor of this plane 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:29.960 being shot down admitted to the Santinistas that he was 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:34.760 delivering weapons to the Contras for the CIA. 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:35.320 Ooops. 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:41.200 Then a month later, a Lebanese magazine Al Shira got 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:45.280 a scoop that the US had been secretly selling missiles 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:49.520 to Iran for the release of American hostages. And by 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:53.240 the way, only three hostages had actually been released. So 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:56.160 the efficacy of this whole scheme is like, what is 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:57.480 very much in question? 0:07:57.960 --> 0:07:59.840 What did I never did know the ratio of like 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.080 missiles to guys we were getting that. 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.520 I actually don't know, my head. I don't think it 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.560 was good because I'm assuming that they said a lot 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.480 of missile a lot of missiles. Anyway, this is quite 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:16.160 a one two punch, right, this down pilot confessing to 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.280 the Sandinistas that the CIA is helping the Contras, and 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:23.440 then of course this article coming out in a Lebanese 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:29.880 magazine basically exposing that that scandal. So in response, Reagan 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.800 did what he was best at. He got on TV 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:37.800 and on November thirteenth, he addressed America from the White 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:39.600 House and we actually have a little audio clip to 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:41.440 play from that press conference. Here. 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:45.600 Now, my fellow Americans, there's an old saying that nothing 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.520 spread so quickly as a rumor. So I thought it 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.040 was time to speak with you directly, to tell you 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.280 firsthand about our dealings with Iran, just. 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.400 A little little taste of it, but I'll tell you later. 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:01.560 In the video, Reagan says he wasn't doing any backdoor 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:06.920 trades with Iran. He says, we did not, repeat did 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:12.640 not trade weapons or anything else for hostages. So I 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.360 had to work in my Reagan voice, that voice you 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.840 very much. But he does say explicitly, we did not 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:22.640 trade weapons or anything else. 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:24.240 Clear. 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:27.959 Cross couldn't have been clear more clear, of course. Yeah. Well, 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.680 it turns out straight up lying doesn't put an end 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.959 to things, and soon it will be revealed that these 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:38.280 scandals actually had a lot to do with each other. 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.880 Once all of this starts leaking, Reagan's attorney general, a 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.080 man by the name of Edwin mess steps in to 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.800 figure out just what the heck is going on here. 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:53.480 Uh So, a couple of weeks after this, after this 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:57.920 presidential address, on November twenty fifth, nineteen eighty six, MEAs 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:02.360 goes on TV to the nation. And here's where things 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:07.080 get a little wild. Mees confirms that, yes, the US 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:13.200 had actually been selling weapons secretly to Iran, and yes 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:17.520 the US had been backing the contras in Nicaragua. But 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:22.720 then he drops the real bombshell. These were not separate operations. 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:30.040 They were the same operation. What Yes, because Edwin Meaes 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.760 had found what is known as the Diversion Memo in 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:38.080 Oliver North's office. Now, this memo showed that money from 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.880 those secret arm sales to Iran wasn't just sitting around, 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:46.960 It was being funneled off the books to fund the contras. 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:51.360 So suddenly what looked like two different scandals snaps into 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:56.200 focus as one tangled scheme. Attorney General Meaes also had 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.280 another very important point to make at this press conference, 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:03.720 and that was that President Reagan did not know about 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.920 any of this. Of course, he was completely in the dark, 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:11.960 totally inno set of any wrongdoing. So me press conference 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:14.680 is kind of like a confession and a cleanup all 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:15.959 at the exact same time. 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.280 Yeah, that's that's a remarkable line to try to cross 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.240 of like, well, we have to admit to breaking the 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:23.600 law that the President said that we absolutely didn't do. 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:25.920 And also these two things that we said weren't connected 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:29.880 or connected but the president didn't know. But also he's 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:33.160 still a good president. He just didn't know. Yeah exactly. 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:38.120 I mean, does does does a scandal that goes from 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.880 two bad things to one incredibly complicated, big bad thing 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:47.240 make it better or more efficient, more impressive? Yeah? Yeah, 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:49.559 it's kind of like this feels like the usual Suspects 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:55.440 moment where he's just like, oh, yes, yeah, Kobayashi, I 0:11:55.559 --> 0:12:01.000 get it. He is kaiser SoSE and we all feel 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:03.880 kind of smart and dumb at the same time. 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.360 Yeah, what we expect from a president. Like it feels 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.560 a lot like it's it's declined over the last couple 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:15.080 of decades rapidly, but also like the I guess it's 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:18.080 just shocking to me the degree to which a lot 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.880 of people, including people who really liked Reagan, were willing 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.840 to convince themselves well, he can't even though there's literally 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.440 no way this could have happened without Reagan's sign off. 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.360 He must not have really known. Like the amount of 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.120 slack that that he was given for this has always 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:35.280 really surprised me. I've never understood it. 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:39.600 Well, were we will believe what we want to believe. Yeah, right, 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.040 Like we're just so much of our what we think 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:45.760 is our rational analysis is just motivated reasoning. Yep uh. 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:47.559 And I think you're that's a prime example of it. 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:49.720 Do you remember what what Saturday Night Li was doing 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.600 at this time? They had a they had a brilliant 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:56.720 ongoing series of sketches in which Phil Hartman played Reagan, 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.199 and and they really played with this dichotomy of him 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:03.679 being perceived it just as just this sort of like, 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:09.480 you know, real friendly, just kind of cowboy who was 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.520 a nice to everybody but a little bit kind of 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.240 maybe clueless, but that's okay because he's doing the right thing. 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.199 His heart's in the right place. And so they'd have 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.720 these scenes with Phil Hartman, you know, like doing a 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.840 photo op with a girl scout troop or something cute, 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:24.520 and then he'd kind of usher them out of the 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.280 Oval office and then he'd be like get in here, everybody, 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:29.760 and he'd pull in all the everyone to sit them 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.240 down and pull down a map of Iran or wherever 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:36.360 and be like okay, barking orders and everybody, and just 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:40.760 sort of highlighting that extreme dichotomy of of like the 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.280 performance of a kind of like a guy who hey, 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.160 he got sort of taken for a ride on this 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:47.160 whole Iran. 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.160 Memory is not great, but his heart's in the right place. 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:52.319 And then this like blood soaked mad man. 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:56.640 Yeah, go back and watch these old Phil Hartman Reagan sketches. 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.000 They're incredible and they're very sort of emblematic of this moment. 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.120 So Edwin Mess's press conference turned out to be one 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:05.040 of those classic moments of trying to put out a 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:09.679 fire by throwing gasoline on it. He sent Congress completely 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.440 spinning out. They're like, wait, wait, wait, what this was 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:15.000 one giant conspiracy. We got to get to the bottom 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.880 of this. This is way worse. Yeah. Also worth noting 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:22.880 that Mes and Reagan were old pals, So it's pretty 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:25.280 crazy to think that an attorney general appointed by a 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:31.440 president could do a thorough job of investigating his boss, right, Yeah, Naturally, 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:37.080 everyone in Washington immediately spun into investigative overdrive. The House 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:41.560 launched an investigation, the Senate launched an investigation. Reagan, not 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:44.760 to be outdone, also appointed a commission led by ex 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.640 Senator John Tower, to investigate, and just for good measure, 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:54.080 he brought in independent special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh to investigate 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:59.840 and bring charges. Now, Robert, when everyone is investigating everyone 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.360 else this hard? Is that due diligence or just like 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:07.000 a kind of Shakespearean level of thou dost protest too much? 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:11.840 Yeah, that's that's like ass covering on a grand scale. Especially, 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.040 I mean, it's I guess it's I'm sure because like 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:18.440 you do want some of those investigations seem like they're appropriate, right, 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:22.000 Like Congress investigating the president seems like it's something that's 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.400 Congress ought to be doing. The President having his own 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:28.360 investigation into like what his guys were doing is a 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.800 lot of like we're gonna make sure the Foxes really 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:32.960 get a good line on what's happening in this hen house, 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:36.200 you know, like that that that strikes me as fucky 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:37.600 just this year volume. 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:41.680 I mean, it starts to feel like, uh, like layers 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:46.520 upon layers of nothing to see here, right, right, Yeah, 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:50.120 it's just it we're all investigating so hard that you 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:51.880 can no longer see through the. 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.400 Mess, right, And and it's also like you don't need 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:57.280 to look like nobody else needs to be looking like 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:58.720 we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna. 0:15:58.560 --> 0:15:59.120 Keep an eye on this. 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.160 Don't worry, like the truth will come out for sure. 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:02.440 We've got it there. 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:02.920 We got this. 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.560 All right. So a few months later, in February of 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.840 nineteen eighty seven, the Tower Commission released the report, confirming 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.880 what the Diversion Memo said and stating that the National 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:24.600 Security Council needed reforms after acting far too independently of Congress. Okay, 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.440 the level of criminal law breaking in the NSC had 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:32.120 become so undeniable that Reagan gave his follow up to 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:36.120 his earlier statement. And I'll forego my Reagan imitation this time, 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.080 just to get this language across. He said. A few 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:41.560 months ago, I told the American people I did not 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:46.400 trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.120 still tell me that's true, But the facts and the 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:51.800 evidence tell me it is not. 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.720 Amazing amazing sentence. 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.680 How incredible is that language? 0:16:57.760 --> 0:16:59.960 I mean, you've been in more than a few writers room. 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.080 Can you imagine how long it took to break that line? 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.600 Because Reagan wasn't writing that himself. Like, there was a 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.359 room full of guys up until like four in the morning, 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.280 being like, how do we put all this in a sentence? 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:13.919 Yeah, this is not just a word salad. This is 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.919 like a word salad bar. It is a full on 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:21.960 buffet of words scrambled up into some what's supposed to 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:26.040 be delicious, but it's still kind of leaving a terrible 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:28.080 taste in your mouth. I just want to go back 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.920 to this. My heart and my best intentions still tell 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.719 me that's true. But still tell me this thing that 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:38.840 I said to you, it's not true. But the facts 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.640 and the evidence. In other words, he's externalizing this. He's 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:46.240 not saying like my own analysis of what I said 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.320 is revealing that I lied to you. He's saying that 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:53.359 these other things, these facts, and this evidence, are telling 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:56.159 me that what I told you before it's not true. Yeah. 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.560 Yeah, an officer, I know you found that half empty 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:03.359 four in the center console of my car, But my 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.320 heart tells me I haven't been drinking tonight. 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:10.720 You know, And my best intentions tell me that that 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:15.240 doesn't even exist, that he's not even there slashing around 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:16.000 in the back seat. 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.119 Yeah, and I obeyed. I obeyed the speed limit at 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.240 all times. I wasn't going sixteen to fifteen exactly. 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:24.719 Or as drunk people often do. They're going like twenty 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:30.000 five in a sixties two all right. In July of 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:33.240 this year, Oliver North and other members involved in the 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:38.200 Iran Contra affair testified before Congress in live televised hearings 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:42.320 as part of both the Senate and House led investigations. 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.480 What came out led to wave after wave of indictments 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:50.920 from Lawrence Walsh against Oliver North, John Poindexter, and others 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.240 who had clearly been involved. One of the most insane 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.840 reveals was that while Meese had claimed to be investigating 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:02.200 the NSC's activities, he had actually given Oliver North and 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.600 John Poindexter a heads up that he would be coming by, 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.919 and this gave Oliver North enough time to host a 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:16.480 quote paper shredding party and destroy or alter thousands of 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:21.240 pages of documents before Meese and his team could collect them. Now, 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.960 this that is the actual language that had a party 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:29.320 shredding party. What does calling it a shredding party due 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.440 to the way we hear something like that, because it's 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:36.199 very different from destroying evidence. It is a it is 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:37.439 a shredding party. 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.280 I think it sounds worse because that just sounds like 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:45.320 you're deliberately, like you are thumbing your nose at any 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.680 idea of accountability right as opposed to like, well, we 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:50.680 had a crime party, and I'd be like, well, yeah, 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:52.720 you did commit some crimes, but at least you're saying. 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.320 It right, I think it. But I do think in 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:59.200 this way that like language is powerful and it sort 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:01.600 of sets us sets a tone that this was sort 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.840 of a casual thing and not that big a deal, 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.760 but it was such a big deal a deal. North's 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:13.159 shredding spree didn't erase the scandal, of course, but it 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.080 erased enough of the paper trail to keep the full 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:20.800 story just out of reach. The diversion mimo exposed the 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:25.359 basic scheme, but anything that might have clearly implicated higher ups, 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:29.920 like for example, Ronald Reagan, well that stuff was gone. 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.919 So all of this came out in the congressional investigations. 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:38.040 North and Poindexter got their come upances, and justice was 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:40.160 served right right. 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:43.080 In the same way that like, if the mafia appoints 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.800 a fall guy to take the pin for like a crime, 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:49.080 then like was justice several Yeah, that guy did something right, 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.320 but there's other guys that aren't getting Well. 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.720 Here's the best part, because it's even like the accountability 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:56.440 is even worse than you think. I mean, that's part 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:58.960 of the that's part of the beauty of snafu is 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.840 that is that ability is just this ephemeral co word. 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:06.480 It doesn't actually apply to anything. Remember, there are multiple 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:10.320 simultaneous investigations going on here. In a way, they unintentionally 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:14.639 undermined each other, which all became sort of its own snafoo. So, 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:19.560 despite the fact that Walsh brought charges against Oliver North 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:23.679 and Poindexter and other members of the National Security Council, 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:30.040 Congress had already offered North and Poindexter immunity from charges 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:33.320 in exchange for their testimony. So that meant that eleven 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:37.399 individuals were found guilty in either carrying out the plot 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:41.280 or in trying to slow down the investigations, but not 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:45.080 Oliver North or Poindexter, or whether or not they were 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:49.880 found guilty, they were they got off complete lyst got 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:53.080 free due to their immunity. Make this make sense to me? 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:53.960 It seems fair to me. 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:58.040 I mean the senses that, like, the people running the 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:00.920 government really wanted to do this and they didn't want 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:03.840 their their friends to get in trouble for breaking the law, 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:06.560 right Like, that's that's the sense. I mean, it's not 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:09.840 so different than the way things work now. Like, it's 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:12.639 the it's the problem with investing people with power like 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:17.760 this and then having the accountability also be them, right, Like, ideally, 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:19.920 I get what we were the founding fathers. We're trying 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:21.879 to do with a separation of powers, and there's a 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:23.320 you know, there's a lot of wisdom in there. It 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:25.480 worked out in some ways for a while, but maybe 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:29.000 we need like another separate power, like a guy who 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:32.520 like doesn't have any other power, but if the president's 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:35.679 like fucking up, he can like sprits him with like 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:37.840 like you know, a little pepper water, right, like you 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:40.479 would with like a like a misbehaving cat or something 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:46.000 like that. Right, Yeah, Like the guy whose job is 0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:49.520 to like hold the president to account, some dude who 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:53.840 can Who's Who's Who's like an appointed law enforcement type 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.399 thing representing the people whose job is to make sure 0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:58.880 that shit like this doesn't happen. But we'll never do that, right, 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:02.000 Like yeah, because nobody in power would want that to happen. 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:05.280 I don't know. I'm not a legal theorist, but I 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:09.920 would love to kind of hear from a legal expert 0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:14.960 some of the theory behind offering immunity to people for 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:18.680