WEBVTT - True Crime Junkies with Marcia Clark 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:06.200 Welcome everyone to the Amy and TJ Podcast. And I 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:09.360 think by now, if you all have been listening, you're 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.320 very well aware of our love of true crime. 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:15.200 How would you describe our passion for the genre. 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:21.640 It's become an obsession. We're storytellers by trade. We are storytellers, 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.840 and so many of these are stories that I mean, yes, 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:27.800 they end up ending tragically, but there's just sometimes some 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:30.120 of them are so good in how they tell these stories. 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:35.720 So we go through our so vengeance snapped, chilling relationships, 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:39.720 worst roommate ever, There's just we could keep going and going. 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:41.760 The problem is now we don't have a lot of 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.640 room in our true crime slate for more. But now 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:46.640 we got to add because we do, they're giving us 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:47.839 another show we got to keep up with. 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:50.159 Yeah, we have like a Murder in the Morning, Rundown, 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:53.480 Most Warnings, and we are going to be adding a show, 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:57.200 a particular show. It's a podcast to the list of 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.880 our obsession with true crime. And the woman who is 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:04.640 front and center, well, let's say you might know her, 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:05.959 you might have heard of her. 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:07.759 She's probably one of the. 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:12.760 World's most famous prosecutors, perhaps the world's most famous prosecutor. 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:17.280 She is also just has has been wearing a lot 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:18.800 of different hats over the. 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:19.720 Past few years. 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:24.200 She is a journalist, she is a television producer, she's 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.680 a television host. Now, as we mentioned, she's a podcast host. 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:30.360 I think we should go ahead and introduce the woman 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.759 we are talking about, the one and only Marcia Clark Marshad. 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:36.280 Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, and 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:40.560 congratulations on all the shows and successes you've had over 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:42.040 the years. They've been plentiful. 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:44.920 Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. Guys. 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:46.840 Thanks for having me well Marcia. 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:50.320 I said to her earlier today we were getting ready, 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:53.720 I said, let's really try to find a way has 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:59.040 she ever been? Will she ever be introduced without Ojay's 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.440 name being in the introduction? And there's so much you 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.200 have done, and I think there's so much a part 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:07.240 of your life then that people got to see, certainly 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:11.800 with the television show, but I think we miss sometimes 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:15.560 that you're a mom, you're an educator in a lot 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.280 of ways. Now you're a television correspondent in a lot 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:20.960 of ways. So there's just so much more to you. 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:23.360 You put into terms how full your life has been 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:26.200 post being a prosecutor. 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.639 That's a really so thank you so much, Number one 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:33.040 for the effort to talk about something else besides him. 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:38.440 It's a refreshing change, and I really appreciate it. After that, 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:43.120 I turned to writing, and I've written nine novels, nine 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:47.120 crime fiction novels, a collaborat, of course, on the book 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:51.200 about the trial. I just wrote a true crime non 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:55.160 fiction based on the story of Barbara Graant, who was 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.120 This was a story in the fifties and she was 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.200 She wound up being one of the four women who 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.600 were put to death in California for a murder she 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:07.600 did not commit. So that book will be coming out 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:13.000 in December. And last, but certainly not least, this podcast. 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:17.679 It's called Informants Lawyer X. And it was the craziest 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:21.720 story and the wildest ride I could have possibly imagine. 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:24.760 It blew me away. And I've seen thousands. I mean, 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:28.880 I'm still practicing criminal laws, so I can't tell you that. Literally, 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.920 I've handled thousands of cases and some are really wild. 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:36.000 This took the cake running away. Started with a rumor 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.000 that had this very high powered criminal lawyer who was 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.960 handling all of the most notorious drug lords and killers 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:45.280 was sleeping with a cop that turned out to be 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.960 the very least of the story. That was nothing compared 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.960 to the twists and turns. It was unbelievable. She wound 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.200 up becoming the most celebrated informant the police ever had 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:59.480 while representing these notorious killers, and then wound up helping 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:01.880 the killers with the information she got from the police. 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:06.280 She was a puppet mastery between this triangle that was ginormous, 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:09.800 wound up implicated in a double murdered homicide that was 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:14.880 execution style of yet another informant. I you know, it 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.560 bottles the mind. I mean, even when I was narrating it, 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:22.200 having written the episodes, co written the episodes with two 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.799 of the writers on the show. Honestly, I kept saying, 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.520 I can't believe I'm saying this. I can't believe I'm 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:29.680 telling you guys this story. 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:32.480 And I knew the story, and I was saying that 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:36.440 so and that speaks volumes for someone who has spent 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:40.920 their entire lives in some former fashion dealing with crime 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.640 and these powerful trials, and certainly those of us who 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:47.880 have reported on a lot of these different trials and 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:52.320 murders and mysteries. Everyone I think can agree that truth 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:55.760 is almost always stranger than fiction. So these are fascinating, 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.239 fascinating stories. But what do you think it is about 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:01.360 true crime that has so much many people like us? 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:03.920 And I read that you two were and are a 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.760 true crime junkie. What is it about these stories that 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:08.480 keeps us coming back and wanting more? 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.200 You know, that's a really great question. I have grappled 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.400 with it myself, because yeah, I'm a true crime junkie 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:15.479 just like you guys, so and I have been since 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.000 I was a child. I was I was like solving 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:20.960 that case when there was no case. When I was 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.560 six years old, there was an abandoned house at the 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:25.800 end of the street, and I decided a murder must 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:27.760 have taken place there. I mean it must have so, 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:32.080 and I found blood drops on the sidewalk. I mean, yeah, 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:35.600 I invented evidence. The surprising thing was I got all 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:38.599 my friends to go along with this and incredible story 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:42.040 that was no story, you know, looking for clues. I've 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.800 then to crack this case wide open, and I didn't, 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.320 but I thought I did. So it's been It's like 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:53.800 an abiding thing, lifelong thing. I think we're all curious people. 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.800 I think the true crime community, of which I am 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:01.120 a proud member. Our curt These are curious people. We 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.360 are curious. We want to solve riddle to want to 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.920 solve puzzles. We want answers to things. We want explanations 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.080 for things more than most I mean everybody does, but we, 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.279 I think, really want to. And it's like I can't 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:15.839 walk into a room. I can't see a box sitting 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:17.960 on a table in a room without going over to 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.920 open it. I mean, friends have like laughed, Oh, she's 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.039 gonna she's right there, and I can't help it. I 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.880 don't mean to be this person. It's convulsive. So I 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:29.360 think that's I think that's part of it. The other 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:32.320 part of it is Mark Twain said it very well. 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.200 A paraphrase him. I'm going to get it wrong, I 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:36.960 know I will. But the idea of it is truth 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.600 has to deal with possibility. I mean fiction, See, I 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:43.760 think it's fiction has to deal with possibilities. Truth does not, 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.080 And that to me is like one of the most 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:51.200 abiding things about these stories is they're so crazy that 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.120 you wouldn't believe them unless they were true. You wouldn't 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.240 even want to buy them as fiction. So I mean, 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.280 I think that's that's the other part of it is 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.920 that it's a wild story that happens to be true. 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:05.719 Therefore it's about all of us. So I think that's 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.400 part of it too, you know. And if you always 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:10.840 get into the motivations, who are these people? Why do 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.760 they do what they do? Especially when it comes to murder? Right, 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:19.360 the ultimate crime? Why we've been all in frustrating situations 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.520 in our lives. People have pissed us off, Right, we 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:23.240 didn't kill them? 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:23.920 Right? 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:28.600 What makes people take that ultimate step? The answers are 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.000 so many and so varied, and sometimes they're banal and silly, 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:38.800 and sometimes they're profound and really moving. There's so many answers. 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:41.960 Marsha, what do you think of how I mean, certainly 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.640 you were involved with the biggest trial most of us 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:49.000 will ever see. But the way we handle celebrities and 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:53.400 trials these days, in terms of media, it seems like 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:57.680 there are more places for I mean, what's what social media, 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:00.400 and there's TMD and there are things like that around, 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.320 but beyond just I guess so many options out there. 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:05.680 What is it we do when we see a p 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:06.480 ditty story? 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:06.920 What is it? 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.320 What troubled you about the way the media attacks some 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:11.000 of these stories. 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:15.360 I worry when it comes to celebrity cases. I worry 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:21.880 about too much interest paid to the silacious and the prurient, 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:26.320 and not enough attention paid to truth. I worry that 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:30.920 stories get sold because they'll sell, you know, clickbait, whether 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.080 it's true or not. And I think there's there's a 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:37.160 temptation to still to want that scoop if you will. 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:39.880 I mean, that's an old term, but you know what 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.480 I'm talking about, And everybody wants to be first out 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:45.080 there with the story when it's celebrity because this is 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:46.880 going to be big news. I mean, and it is 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:49.960 big news, right. You know the person's name, You've seen 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.640 them on TV. You guys, you know I'm talking about. 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:57.800 You're famous. And so people have even a greater desire, 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:01.640 a greater curiosity, and they in order to feed that curiosity, 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:04.080 there's a desire to get out there first, grab it 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.440 and not verify, not corroborate, you know, don't bother with 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.360 and don't bother with context either. I want they there's 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:14.280 a desire to want to grab the most explosive headline possible. 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.800 And that's what worries me because you know, you want 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:20.120 the truth and you want context. You want people to 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.280 put this in in its place. You know. I think 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:29.080 Ben Dreyfus actually has a substack. It's called Calm Down, 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.640 and I think words it's a very good title about 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:37.400 Let's remember to consider the nuance, consider all of context, 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.679 consider what the situation is, and put it in its 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:43.400 place in perspective. Let's not just blow it up and 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:45.880 make it big because these people are famous, and I 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:48.680 worry that all of that gets forgotten. Yeah, the worry 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:49.520 is a real concern. 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:51.839 I mean, I think we know, having been on both 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:55.040 sides of that equation in the media and then being 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.760 being people who also yes, we're clickbait, So that absolutely 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:10.440 is true. And I'm curious, as TJ pointed out, you 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.559 were the prosecutor in the Trial of the Century because 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:14.599 of the celebrity of O. J. 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:15.120 Simpson. 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:19.880 How much more difficult is it as a prosecutor to 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:21.679 prosecute a celebrity. 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:25.280 It is way more difficult. Of course, it does depend 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:30.520 on the celebrity the perception. For example, if mister Simpson 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:36.240 was as this affable, genial, wonderful guy, phenomenal athlete, you know, 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.880 and people saw him in context like Naked Gun and 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.920 the Hurts commercials that made him much more than even 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.240 just a sports star and saying just ae sports star. 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:49.720 You know, people love sports figures and especially Steller ones 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:54.439 like him who achieved the unachievable. So you're battling that 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:58.600 persona even though it's not who the person is. So 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:02.720 whoever the celebrity, if it is the positive persona, then 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.679 you're going to be dealing with a perception that has 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:10.480 been fixed and they can't square that circle. They can't 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:15.040 look at that celebrity and say that matches the crime. No, 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:18.040 it can't be. Can't be. So even if it were 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.120 not a million other things in the wake of the 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:22.760 Rodney King riots and all the other things that came 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:26.240 in to complicate it, far far more exponentially, one hundred 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.560 thousand times more, you would have that aspect of celebrity 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.640 where you're overcoming a perception that may have nothing to 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.800 really do with the person, certainly not the situation, and 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.400 it becomes harder for people to imagine than doing what 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:43.360 they're accused of doing. Conversely, the worry is that if 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:47.320 somebody is famous and yet not belooked, you worry that 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:49.679 the jury's going to punish them for that and not 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.760 look at the evidence and be too forgiving of the prosecution, 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.120 and that's a worry too, and not hold the prosecution, 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.320 speak to the fire and demand proof beyond a reasonable 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:02.120 doubt because you want to thump this person. So you know, 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:06.360 celebrity can skew things either way, and that's it. That's 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:08.000 a it's a problem, no question. 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.560 How do you think social media would have made that 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:12.720 trial different? 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:20.360 Do you know how many times I thought, thank god 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:21.360 there was no Twitter? 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:22.200 Oh man. 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:25.440 All we had in the office at that time was 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:30.559 a giant fax machine, you know, huge clunking things, and 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.559 they blew it up. It was blowing up every day. 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.360 It fell apart every day because people were bounding us 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.240 with facts. Is about do this? Think of that? What 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:43.480 about this? Give you craziness? So all I can say 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:49.000 is God bless that there was no social media during 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.560 that trial. It would have been a nightmare. Yeah. 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.760 I cannot even get my head around what that would 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.120 have been like. It was already a media circus as 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:00.800 it was what happened. I know you are obviously you 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.199 still practice law, as you point out, but your life 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:07.520 completely pivoted after that verdict and after that trial. And 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.079 I'm curious if you look back now and say it 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.040 all happened the way it was supposed to, because you 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:15.480 probably wouldn't have made the decisions you made with your 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:17.720 career in your life had you had a different verdict. 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.480 That's really true. That is very, very true. And this 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.240 is one of those things where I had a plan 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:29.120 and you know what they say, man plans and God laughs. Well, same. 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.480 So my plan was to be a prosecutor forever and 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:34.040 ever and ever and let them carry me out of 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:37.120 the courtroom in a pine box. Did not happen that way. 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.720 And I think, you know, after the trial, I couldn't 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.720 face the idea for reading one second of going back 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:48.839 into the courtroom. It was so horrible. The experience was traumatic, 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:55.000 beyond traumatic, and it shredded my feeling, my sense of belief, 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.040 my belief and my faith in the justice system, and 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:03.559 so many things. So I left and was kind of reddless. 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:05.920 You know, I did have to go ahead and write 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:08.320 the book, and I thought, I want to write this 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:12.360 book because I want to make sure while it's fresh, 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.480 that I remember to put everything in it so that 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:18.760 people will know then what well O our opportunities came in, 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:23.440 you know, for hosting or commenting, for writing, and yeah, 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.680 my life took a completely different turn, and it was 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.280 necessary to kind of go with the flow and let 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.680 things happen the way they did because I knew what 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.480 I couldn't do, so I had to find out what 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:37.520 I could do, and so it led to a lot 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:42.040 of reinvention, which I think you know in hindsight that 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:43.280 there was no other choice. 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.120 And if you will allow me the word closure, was it? 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:49.880 And you can put it in different terms if you want, 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:51.760 But was there some point you talked about just how 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:54.040 much that trial did to you and beat you down? 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.840 But coming out of that and getting healthy again, how long? 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.320 And maybe it is a life long process for you, 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.520 But was there ever a point that you got some 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.280 kind of closure or turning up the page you felt 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:07.680 not really? 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.080 Not really, you know? Yeah, I mean I think that 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:14.480 the wound healed to a point as much as it's 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:19.480 going to the sadness over to innocent people being brutally 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:25.200 murdered that way, that's that's really hard. I don't expect 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:29.440 to get over that, not completely, I don't. I don't 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.040 think that it's as fresh as it was, thank goodness. 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.160 But you know that's not going to go away. It's 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:39.800 just it can't any any any kind of injustice, I 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.040 think kind of I can't let go of that. And 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:46.480 it doesn't matter whether it's injustice because someone was wrongly 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:49.720 convicted or wrongly acquitted. For me, it's the same thing. 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:54.040 You know, justice wasn't served. That's the most important thing 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:58.480 to me. Truth, justice was it served. And so in 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:02.800 some respects, I think there's no getting over something like that. 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.200 If if that makes sense, you do get past it 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:07.800 to a certain degree, and you have to. 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:11.920 You know, you said, you said, and that all makes sense. 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:14.800 By the way, Marcia, you said when you were talking 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:22.000 earlier that you absolutely questioned the validity of our justice system. 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:22.960 Where do you stand on that? 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:26.720 Now? I think we're getting better, to be honest with you. 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.360 It's it's interesting now. I live in California, so we've 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:35.520 recently gone through reforms in our laws and particularly reliability 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:39.480 in terms of felony murder. That is a good adjustment, 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.400 which we knew this was coming. It's really funny you 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:44.440 should mention this. I was thinking about it. The other day. 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:49.000 We enacted what was called the three strikes law. These 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.720 it was meant to punish more severely recidibous, that is, 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:58.720 career criminals who repeat offenders. Good idea, that's fine, you 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:00.880 certainly do want to do that, But it was also 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:03.960 an effort to strip away discretion from the judges and 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.919 to enforce certain laws to a point and ensure that 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.159 at least this amount of time will be required to 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:14.399 be imposed as a sentence in kind of cases. But 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:17.199 the problem, of course with that is that once you 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.800 strip away discretion, then you lose the ability to place 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:24.760 a defendant context, a defendant who has maybe not been 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.440 the prime mover in a case, who's a fringe player, 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.600 who's the getaway driver, that sort of thing, and you 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.640 lump everybody into the same boat. That's not good either. 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:38.080 So we keep bouncing between too much discretion not enough discretion. 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.359 We're trying to get it right, and I think the 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.840 effort is an important one, but I think it's necessary 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:48.359 to get into what really is what each defendant did. 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.600 The punishment must fit the crime. It can't just be 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.280 a one size fits all, And that's a really important 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.479 thing because motivation does matter. It matters what a defendant 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.800 intended to do, It matters how things went out, So 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.440 I mean, I'm all for context and nuance. And by 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.840 the way, that's kind of what got me so intrigued 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:10.320 by Lawyer X was why would a woman so at 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:15.000 the top of her game, so celebrated, so successful, Why 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.439 would she now put herself in so much jeopardy. She's 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.320 still inviting because she's in jeopardy from the clients that 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.280 she betrayed, and she's in jeopardy because of the cops 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.000 whose cases are now getting overturned left and right, because 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:30.679 of the violation of the conflicts, ethical conflicts as well 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.080 as legal errors that occurred as a result of what 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:38.040 she did. Why would someone do this? Why would you 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.160 want to destroy your career, your life this way? That 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.320 kind of stuff really matters, And you know, and I, 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:47.240 by the way, that comes full circle to your question 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.879 about what intrigues us about true crime? The why of 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:52.119 it all? I think is the ultimate question that gets 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.840 us going. And I really can't come to a final 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:58.760 conclusion about why Lawyer X did what she did. I'm 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:00.199 really hoping I get to talk to some of the 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:02.280 people who hear the podcast and see what they think 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:12.480 is the why of it all. 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.919 Marsha listening to you talk with so much passion about 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.440 certainly the case on lawyer adicts, but also just the 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:23.119 justice system. You sound like someone who would be a 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:25.439 benefit to us all if you were in the justice system. 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:27.440 Have you thought about I know you don't want to 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:29.439 go back into a courtroom, but have you thought about 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.240 any other way to serve even that's running for office 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.280 of some kind? Has that crossed your mind? 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:42.240 Never? Never come on? I mean, should let me tell 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.160 you how this goes? Because I can't lie. I don't lie. 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:48.000 I might not say something. You know, I might withhold 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:50.000 what I think at a given time to try and 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.719 not just spare people's feelings, but I would be direct. 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.320 So you know, somebody asked, what do you think of 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:57.119 this policy? What do you think of this law? I 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:03.800 won't tell them, And you know what that means. The 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:05.520 shortest campaign you ever saw. 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:09.040 Can I say, though you have been completely vetted because 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.399 you went through the Ringer. I mean, you know, just 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.160 that public scrutiny that you had. I mean, I don't 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.679 know if if we had seen that really before, because 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:20.640 you were a pioneer. 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:20.960 In a lot of ways. 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:25.160 To see a woman in charge of this massive legal team, 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:28.120 and how many other women. Did we even see at 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:31.280 that point in our lives in positions of power, where 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:33.880 you would have and your looks, what you were wearing, 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:39.320 your perm your everything, What was your mental health like that? 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:41.240 Because really, I don't know that you had anyone to 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:42.720 turn to to say what should I do? 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.400 How can I stop this? You know what? I did 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:50.439 turn to our media people in the DA's office, but 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:53.080 they didn't know either because this had never happened before. 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.600 What do you do? I mean, this is something that 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.120 it's really hard to imagine this today in today's world 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:04.399 with social media, Twitter, etc. Excuse me x, Instagram, you know, 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:07.359 the whole line yards. We've lived with this now for 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.240 so many years that it's hard to imagine what life 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.680 was like back then. But back in ninety four when 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:16.719 I got the case, a high profile case meant maybe 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:20.200 they'll spell my name right, Probably they won't even mention 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:23.920 my name. That's it. Picture of me, no way, only 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:25.800 if I'm in the background, because they're taking a picture 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:27.560 of the defend and I happen to be standing over there. 0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:31.360 So there's no there's no way to account for what happened. 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:34.159 It was It wasn't supposed to be like that and 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:36.840 a high profile case. Back then, if they the media 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:39.080 showed up at the time of the arraignment, that's all 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:41.879 you would see of them. They disappear and they'd maybe 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.280 come back in time for the verdict, maybe not. They 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:46.720 just report on it without having been in the court room. 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:52.199 Things changed when Simpson happened, and suddenly we had a 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:55.680 twenty four news hour cycle and cable stations that could 0:21:55.800 --> 0:22:00.359 broadcast around the country constantly. And then you know, we 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:02.480