1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome everyone to the Amy and TJ Podcast. And I 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: think by now, if you all have been listening, you're 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: very well aware of our love of true crime. 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 2: How would you describe our passion for the genre. 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 3: It's become an obsession. We're storytellers by trade. We are storytellers, 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 3: and so many of these are stories that I mean, yes, 7 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 3: they end up ending tragically, but there's just sometimes some 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 3: of them are so good in how they tell these stories. 9 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 3: So we go through our so vengeance snapped, chilling relationships, 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 3: worst roommate ever, There's just we could keep going and going. 11 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 3: The problem is now we don't have a lot of 12 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 3: room in our true crime slate for more. But now 13 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 3: we got to add because we do, they're giving us 14 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 3: another show we got to keep up with. 15 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, we have like a Murder in the Morning, Rundown, 16 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: Most Warnings, and we are going to be adding a show, 17 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: a particular show. It's a podcast to the list of 18 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: our obsession with true crime. And the woman who is 19 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: front and center, well, let's say you might know her, 20 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: you might have heard of her. 21 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 2: She's probably one of the. 22 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: World's most famous prosecutors, perhaps the world's most famous prosecutor. 23 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: She is also just has has been wearing a lot 24 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: of different hats over the. 25 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 2: Past few years. 26 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: She is a journalist, she is a television producer, she's 27 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: a television host. Now, as we mentioned, she's a podcast host. 28 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: I think we should go ahead and introduce the woman 29 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 1: we are talking about, the one and only Marcia Clark Marshad. 30 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, and 31 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: congratulations on all the shows and successes you've had over 32 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: the years. They've been plentiful. 33 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. Guys. 34 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me well Marcia. 35 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 3: I said to her earlier today we were getting ready, 36 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 3: I said, let's really try to find a way has 37 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 3: she ever been? Will she ever be introduced without Ojay's 38 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 3: name being in the introduction? And there's so much you 39 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 3: have done, and I think there's so much a part 40 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 3: of your life then that people got to see, certainly 41 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 3: with the television show, but I think we miss sometimes 42 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 3: that you're a mom, you're an educator in a lot 43 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 3: of ways. Now you're a television correspondent in a lot 44 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 3: of ways. So there's just so much more to you. 45 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 3: You put into terms how full your life has been 46 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 3: post being a prosecutor. 47 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 2: That's a really so thank you so much, Number one 48 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: for the effort to talk about something else besides him. 49 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: It's a refreshing change, and I really appreciate it. After that, 50 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 2: I turned to writing, and I've written nine novels, nine 51 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: crime fiction novels, a collaborat, of course, on the book 52 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: about the trial. I just wrote a true crime non 53 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: fiction based on the story of Barbara Graant, who was 54 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: This was a story in the fifties and she was 55 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: She wound up being one of the four women who 56 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: were put to death in California for a murder she 57 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 2: did not commit. So that book will be coming out 58 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: in December. And last, but certainly not least, this podcast. 59 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 2: It's called Informants Lawyer X. And it was the craziest 60 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: story and the wildest ride I could have possibly imagine. 61 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: It blew me away. And I've seen thousands. I mean, 62 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: I'm still practicing criminal laws, so I can't tell you that. Literally, 63 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 2: I've handled thousands of cases and some are really wild. 64 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: This took the cake running away. Started with a rumor 65 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: that had this very high powered criminal lawyer who was 66 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: handling all of the most notorious drug lords and killers 67 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: was sleeping with a cop that turned out to be 68 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: the very least of the story. That was nothing compared 69 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: to the twists and turns. It was unbelievable. She wound 70 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: up becoming the most celebrated informant the police ever had 71 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: while representing these notorious killers, and then wound up helping 72 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 2: the killers with the information she got from the police. 73 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: She was a puppet mastery between this triangle that was ginormous, 74 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: wound up implicated in a double murdered homicide that was 75 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: execution style of yet another informant. I you know, it 76 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 2: bottles the mind. I mean, even when I was narrating it, 77 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 2: having written the episodes, co written the episodes with two 78 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,799 Speaker 2: of the writers on the show. Honestly, I kept saying, 79 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: I can't believe I'm saying this. I can't believe I'm 80 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: telling you guys this story. 81 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: And I knew the story, and I was saying that 82 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: so and that speaks volumes for someone who has spent 83 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: their entire lives in some former fashion dealing with crime 84 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: and these powerful trials, and certainly those of us who 85 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: have reported on a lot of these different trials and 86 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: murders and mysteries. Everyone I think can agree that truth 87 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: is almost always stranger than fiction. So these are fascinating, 88 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,239 Speaker 1: fascinating stories. But what do you think it is about 89 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: true crime that has so much many people like us? 90 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: And I read that you two were and are a 91 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: true crime junkie. What is it about these stories that 92 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: keeps us coming back and wanting more? 93 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 2: You know, that's a really great question. I have grappled 94 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: with it myself, because yeah, I'm a true crime junkie 95 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 2: just like you guys, so and I have been since 96 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 2: I was a child. I was I was like solving 97 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: that case when there was no case. When I was 98 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 2: six years old, there was an abandoned house at the 99 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: end of the street, and I decided a murder must 100 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: have taken place there. I mean it must have so, 101 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: and I found blood drops on the sidewalk. I mean, yeah, 102 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 2: I invented evidence. The surprising thing was I got all 103 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 2: my friends to go along with this and incredible story 104 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: that was no story, you know, looking for clues. I've 105 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: then to crack this case wide open, and I didn't, 106 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: but I thought I did. So it's been It's like 107 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 2: an abiding thing, lifelong thing. I think we're all curious people. 108 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 2: I think the true crime community, of which I am 109 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: a proud member. Our curt These are curious people. We 110 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 2: are curious. We want to solve riddle to want to 111 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 2: solve puzzles. We want answers to things. We want explanations 112 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 2: for things more than most I mean everybody does, but we, 113 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 2: I think, really want to. And it's like I can't 114 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 2: walk into a room. I can't see a box sitting 115 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: on a table in a room without going over to 116 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 2: open it. I mean, friends have like laughed, Oh, she's 117 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 2: gonna she's right there, and I can't help it. I 118 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 2: don't mean to be this person. It's convulsive. So I 119 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 2: think that's I think that's part of it. The other 120 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 2: part of it is Mark Twain said it very well. 121 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: A paraphrase him. I'm going to get it wrong, I 122 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: know I will. But the idea of it is truth 123 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 2: has to deal with possibility. I mean fiction, See, I 124 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: think it's fiction has to deal with possibilities. Truth does not, 125 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 2: And that to me is like one of the most 126 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 2: abiding things about these stories is they're so crazy that 127 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 2: you wouldn't believe them unless they were true. You wouldn't 128 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: even want to buy them as fiction. So I mean, 129 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 2: I think that's that's the other part of it is 130 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 2: that it's a wild story that happens to be true. 131 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 2: Therefore it's about all of us. So I think that's 132 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: part of it too, you know. And if you always 133 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: get into the motivations, who are these people? Why do 134 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: they do what they do? Especially when it comes to murder? Right, 135 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: the ultimate crime? Why we've been all in frustrating situations 136 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 2: in our lives. People have pissed us off, Right, we 137 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 2: didn't kill them? 138 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: Right? 139 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: What makes people take that ultimate step? The answers are 140 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: so many and so varied, and sometimes they're banal and silly, 141 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: and sometimes they're profound and really moving. There's so many answers. 142 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 3: Marsha, what do you think of how I mean, certainly 143 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 3: you were involved with the biggest trial most of us 144 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 3: will ever see. But the way we handle celebrities and 145 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 3: trials these days, in terms of media, it seems like 146 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 3: there are more places for I mean, what's what social media, 147 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 3: and there's TMD and there are things like that around, 148 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 3: but beyond just I guess so many options out there. 149 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 3: What is it we do when we see a p 150 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 3: ditty story? 151 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: What is it? 152 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 3: What troubled you about the way the media attacks some 153 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 3: of these stories. 154 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: I worry when it comes to celebrity cases. I worry 155 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 2: about too much interest paid to the silacious and the prurient, 156 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 2: and not enough attention paid to truth. I worry that 157 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 2: stories get sold because they'll sell, you know, clickbait, whether 158 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: it's true or not. And I think there's there's a 159 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 2: temptation to still to want that scoop if you will. 160 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: I mean, that's an old term, but you know what 161 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 2: I'm talking about, And everybody wants to be first out 162 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 2: there with the story when it's celebrity because this is 163 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: going to be big news. I mean, and it is 164 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 2: big news, right. You know the person's name, You've seen 165 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: them on TV. You guys, you know I'm talking about. 166 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: You're famous. And so people have even a greater desire, 167 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: a greater curiosity, and they in order to feed that curiosity, 168 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 2: there's a desire to get out there first, grab it 169 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 2: and not verify, not corroborate, you know, don't bother with 170 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: and don't bother with context either. I want they there's 171 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: a desire to want to grab the most explosive headline possible. 172 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: And that's what worries me because you know, you want 173 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: the truth and you want context. You want people to 174 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 2: put this in in its place. You know. I think 175 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 2: Ben Dreyfus actually has a substack. It's called Calm Down, 176 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 2: and I think words it's a very good title about 177 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: Let's remember to consider the nuance, consider all of context, 178 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 2: consider what the situation is, and put it in its 179 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: place in perspective. Let's not just blow it up and 180 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: make it big because these people are famous, and I 181 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: worry that all of that gets forgotten. Yeah, the worry 182 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: is a real concern. 183 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: I mean, I think we know, having been on both 184 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: sides of that equation in the media and then being 185 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: being people who also yes, we're clickbait, So that absolutely 186 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: is true. And I'm curious, as TJ pointed out, you 187 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: were the prosecutor in the Trial of the Century because 188 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:14,599 Speaker 1: of the celebrity of O. J. 189 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: Simpson. 190 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: How much more difficult is it as a prosecutor to 191 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: prosecute a celebrity. 192 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 2: It is way more difficult. Of course, it does depend 193 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 2: on the celebrity the perception. For example, if mister Simpson 194 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 2: was as this affable, genial, wonderful guy, phenomenal athlete, you know, 195 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 2: and people saw him in context like Naked Gun and 196 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: the Hurts commercials that made him much more than even 197 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 2: just a sports star and saying just ae sports star. 198 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 2: You know, people love sports figures and especially Steller ones 199 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 2: like him who achieved the unachievable. So you're battling that 200 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: persona even though it's not who the person is. So 201 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 2: whoever the celebrity, if it is the positive persona, then 202 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 2: you're going to be dealing with a perception that has 203 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 2: been fixed and they can't square that circle. They can't 204 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: look at that celebrity and say that matches the crime. No, 205 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 2: it can't be. Can't be. So even if it were 206 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: not a million other things in the wake of the 207 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: Rodney King riots and all the other things that came 208 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: in to complicate it, far far more exponentially, one hundred 209 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 2: thousand times more, you would have that aspect of celebrity 210 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: where you're overcoming a perception that may have nothing to 211 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: really do with the person, certainly not the situation, and 212 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: it becomes harder for people to imagine than doing what 213 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 2: they're accused of doing. Conversely, the worry is that if 214 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 2: somebody is famous and yet not belooked, you worry that 215 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 2: the jury's going to punish them for that and not 216 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 2: look at the evidence and be too forgiving of the prosecution, 217 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: and that's a worry too, and not hold the prosecution, 218 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 2: speak to the fire and demand proof beyond a reasonable 219 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 2: doubt because you want to thump this person. So you know, 220 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: celebrity can skew things either way, and that's it. That's 221 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 2: a it's a problem, no question. 222 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 3: How do you think social media would have made that 223 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 3: trial different? 224 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 2: Do you know how many times I thought, thank god 225 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 2: there was no Twitter? 226 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: Oh man. 227 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 2: All we had in the office at that time was 228 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 2: a giant fax machine, you know, huge clunking things, and 229 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 2: they blew it up. It was blowing up every day. 230 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 2: It fell apart every day because people were bounding us 231 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 2: with facts. Is about do this? Think of that? What 232 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 2: about this? Give you craziness? So all I can say 233 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 2: is God bless that there was no social media during 234 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 2: that trial. It would have been a nightmare. Yeah. 235 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: I cannot even get my head around what that would 236 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: have been like. It was already a media circus as 237 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: it was what happened. I know you are obviously you 238 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 1: still practice law, as you point out, but your life 239 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: completely pivoted after that verdict and after that trial. And 240 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: I'm curious if you look back now and say it 241 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: all happened the way it was supposed to, because you 242 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: probably wouldn't have made the decisions you made with your 243 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: career in your life had you had a different verdict. 244 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 2: That's really true. That is very, very true. And this 245 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 2: is one of those things where I had a plan 246 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: and you know what they say, man plans and God laughs. Well, same. 247 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 2: So my plan was to be a prosecutor forever and 248 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 2: ever and ever and let them carry me out of 249 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: the courtroom in a pine box. Did not happen that way. 250 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: And I think, you know, after the trial, I couldn't 251 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 2: face the idea for reading one second of going back 252 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 2: into the courtroom. It was so horrible. The experience was traumatic, 253 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: beyond traumatic, and it shredded my feeling, my sense of belief, 254 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: my belief and my faith in the justice system, and 255 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 2: so many things. So I left and was kind of reddless. 256 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: You know, I did have to go ahead and write 257 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 2: the book, and I thought, I want to write this 258 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: book because I want to make sure while it's fresh, 259 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: that I remember to put everything in it so that 260 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 2: people will know then what well O our opportunities came in, 261 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 2: you know, for hosting or commenting, for writing, and yeah, 262 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 2: my life took a completely different turn, and it was 263 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: necessary to kind of go with the flow and let 264 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 2: things happen the way they did because I knew what 265 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 2: I couldn't do, so I had to find out what 266 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: I could do, and so it led to a lot 267 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 2: of reinvention, which I think you know in hindsight that 268 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 2: there was no other choice. 269 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 3: And if you will allow me the word closure, was it? 270 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 3: And you can put it in different terms if you want, 271 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 3: But was there some point you talked about just how 272 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 3: much that trial did to you and beat you down? 273 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 3: But coming out of that and getting healthy again, how long? 274 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 3: And maybe it is a life long process for you, 275 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 3: But was there ever a point that you got some 276 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 3: kind of closure or turning up the page you felt 277 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 3: not really? 278 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 2: Not really, you know? Yeah, I mean I think that 279 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 2: the wound healed to a point as much as it's 280 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 2: going to the sadness over to innocent people being brutally 281 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 2: murdered that way, that's that's really hard. I don't expect 282 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 2: to get over that, not completely, I don't. I don't 283 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 2: think that it's as fresh as it was, thank goodness. 284 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: But you know that's not going to go away. It's 285 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: just it can't any any any kind of injustice, I 286 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 2: think kind of I can't let go of that. And 287 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter whether it's injustice because someone was wrongly 288 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 2: convicted or wrongly acquitted. For me, it's the same thing. 289 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: You know, justice wasn't served. That's the most important thing 290 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: to me. Truth, justice was it served. And so in 291 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: some respects, I think there's no getting over something like that. 292 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: If if that makes sense, you do get past it 293 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: to a certain degree, and you have to. 294 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: You know, you said, you said, and that all makes sense. 295 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: By the way, Marcia, you said when you were talking 296 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: earlier that you absolutely questioned the validity of our justice system. 297 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: Where do you stand on that? 298 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: Now? I think we're getting better, to be honest with you. 299 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 2: It's it's interesting now. I live in California, so we've 300 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: recently gone through reforms in our laws and particularly reliability 301 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 2: in terms of felony murder. That is a good adjustment, 302 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: which we knew this was coming. It's really funny you 303 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: should mention this. I was thinking about it. The other day. 304 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 2: We enacted what was called the three strikes law. These 305 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 2: it was meant to punish more severely recidibous, that is, 306 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: career criminals who repeat offenders. Good idea, that's fine, you 307 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: certainly do want to do that, But it was also 308 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 2: an effort to strip away discretion from the judges and 309 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 2: to enforce certain laws to a point and ensure that 310 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 2: at least this amount of time will be required to 311 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 2: be imposed as a sentence in kind of cases. But 312 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 2: the problem, of course with that is that once you 313 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 2: strip away discretion, then you lose the ability to place 314 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: a defendant context, a defendant who has maybe not been 315 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 2: the prime mover in a case, who's a fringe player, 316 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 2: who's the getaway driver, that sort of thing, and you 317 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 2: lump everybody into the same boat. That's not good either. 318 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 2: So we keep bouncing between too much discretion not enough discretion. 319 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 2: We're trying to get it right, and I think the 320 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 2: effort is an important one, but I think it's necessary 321 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 2: to get into what really is what each defendant did. 322 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 2: The punishment must fit the crime. It can't just be 323 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 2: a one size fits all, And that's a really important 324 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,479 Speaker 2: thing because motivation does matter. It matters what a defendant 325 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: intended to do, It matters how things went out, So 326 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm all for context and nuance. And by 327 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: the way, that's kind of what got me so intrigued 328 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: by Lawyer X was why would a woman so at 329 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: the top of her game, so celebrated, so successful, Why 330 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 2: would she now put herself in so much jeopardy. She's 331 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 2: still inviting because she's in jeopardy from the clients that 332 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: she betrayed, and she's in jeopardy because of the cops 333 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: whose cases are now getting overturned left and right, because 334 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 2: of the violation of the conflicts, ethical conflicts as well 335 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: as legal errors that occurred as a result of what 336 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 2: she did. Why would someone do this? Why would you 337 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 2: want to destroy your career, your life this way? That 338 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 2: kind of stuff really matters, And you know, and I, 339 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: by the way, that comes full circle to your question 340 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 2: about what intrigues us about true crime? The why of 341 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 2: it all? I think is the ultimate question that gets 342 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 2: us going. And I really can't come to a final 343 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 2: conclusion about why Lawyer X did what she did. I'm 344 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 2: really hoping I get to talk to some of the 345 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 2: people who hear the podcast and see what they think 346 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 2: is the why of it all. 347 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 3: Marsha listening to you talk with so much passion about 348 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 3: certainly the case on lawyer adicts, but also just the 349 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 3: justice system. You sound like someone who would be a 350 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 3: benefit to us all if you were in the justice system. 351 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 3: Have you thought about I know you don't want to 352 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 3: go back into a courtroom, but have you thought about 353 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 3: any other way to serve even that's running for office 354 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 3: of some kind? Has that crossed your mind? 355 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 2: Never? Never come on? I mean, should let me tell 356 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 2: you how this goes? Because I can't lie. I don't lie. 357 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 2: I might not say something. You know, I might withhold 358 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: what I think at a given time to try and 359 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,719 Speaker 2: not just spare people's feelings, but I would be direct. 360 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 2: So you know, somebody asked, what do you think of 361 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 2: this policy? What do you think of this law? I 362 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 2: won't tell them, And you know what that means. The 363 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 2: shortest campaign you ever saw. 364 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: Can I say, though you have been completely vetted because 365 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: you went through the Ringer. I mean, you know, just 366 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: that public scrutiny that you had. I mean, I don't 367 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: know if if we had seen that really before, because 368 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: you were a pioneer. 369 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: In a lot of ways. 370 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: To see a woman in charge of this massive legal team, 371 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: and how many other women. Did we even see at 372 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: that point in our lives in positions of power, where 373 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 1: you would have and your looks, what you were wearing, 374 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: your perm your everything, What was your mental health like that? 375 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: Because really, I don't know that you had anyone to 376 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: turn to to say what should I do? 377 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 2: How can I stop this? You know what? I did 378 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 2: turn to our media people in the DA's office, but 379 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 2: they didn't know either because this had never happened before. 380 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 2: What do you do? I mean, this is something that 381 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 2: it's really hard to imagine this today in today's world 382 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 2: with social media, Twitter, etc. Excuse me x, Instagram, you know, 383 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 2: the whole line yards. We've lived with this now for 384 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: so many years that it's hard to imagine what life 385 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 2: was like back then. But back in ninety four when 386 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 2: I got the case, a high profile case meant maybe 387 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 2: they'll spell my name right, Probably they won't even mention 388 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 2: my name. That's it. Picture of me, no way, only 389 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: if I'm in the background, because they're taking a picture 390 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: of the defend and I happen to be standing over there. 391 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 2: So there's no there's no way to account for what happened. 392 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 2: It was It wasn't supposed to be like that and 393 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 2: a high profile case. Back then, if they the media 394 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: showed up at the time of the arraignment, that's all 395 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 2: you would see of them. They disappear and they'd maybe 396 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 2: come back in time for the verdict, maybe not. They 397 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 2: just report on it without having been in the court room. 398 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 2: Things changed when Simpson happened, and suddenly we had a 399 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 2: twenty four news hour cycle and cable stations that could 400 00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 2: broadcast around the country constantly. And then you know, we 401 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 2: had the cameras in the courtroom, which we shouldn't have 402 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 2: had to the degree we did. That was a mistake. 403 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 2: And you know, this is one of those things you 404 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 2: need a judge who really knows how to manage things. 405 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: In other words, let the cameras in when the jurors there, 406 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 2: jury is there, and keep the cameras out when the 407 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:18,959 Speaker 2: jury is not there. That's the only way you can 408 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 2: be sure that stuff that is not supposed to be 409 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 2: presented to the jury is not presented to the world. 410 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 2: They didn't do that. I mean, print reporters will always 411 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 2: be allowed in. But if you don't control the video, 412 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: because that's what people are most likely to see and 413 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: care about, then you have lost control of the whole 414 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: nine yards. So it was crazy because there was no 415 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 2: there was no experience of this. There was no This 416 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: was an experiment of one at the time who knew 417 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 2: what to do about this. There was no stopping it. 418 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 2: So no, there was no way, no one to talk 419 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 2: to because no one knew how to anticipate what this 420 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 2: was going to be. 421 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 3: That's a good point. This was new to everybody. Seems 422 00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 3: like we have these celebrity trials all the time now 423 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 3: and one with cameras, but at the time, you all 424 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 3: were a first for us. I do have to ask 425 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 3: because we had we saw the news several months ago 426 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 3: on the passing the death of OJ Simpson and saw 427 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 3: a statement you put out simply saying my condolences to 428 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 3: the family of OJ Simpson. Did you have more you 429 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 3: wanted to say and have wanted to say? And just 430 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 3: what was your reaction in that moment when you heard 431 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 3: that he had passed? 432 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 2: Was my reaction? I mean, I wasn't kidding TJ when 433 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 2: I said I can't be a politician. I said exactly 434 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 2: what I thought. You know, his family doesn't deserve any 435 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: of this. His family loved him, I'm sure, and felt 436 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 2: the lost keenly. I didn't know at the time he 437 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 2: had been ill, so there it was probably not as 438 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: big a shock to them, but still probably fairly painful. 439 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: And so that's all I thought was, I send my 440 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 2: condolences to the family. 441 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 3: You tell me what you'd always tell us what you think. 442 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 3: Did you feel anything? 443 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 2: That's what I felt, sorry for the family, I mean, 444 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: you know what I mean that that was it. There 445 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 2: was nothing. I I said exactly what I think of 446 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 2: mister Simpson many times and on camera, and so there's 447 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 2: nothing to add. How much of. 448 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: What you went through and experience with that trial fuels 449 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: what you do now? 450 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 2: You said, you know you love the truth searching for 451 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 2: the truth. 452 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: Does the outcome that happened then back then fuel your 453 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: passion today? 454 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 2: I think it's unchanged. I think the passion I had 455 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 2: for truth and justice back then is the same as 456 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 2: I have now. I had it then, have it now? 457 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: You know? 458 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 2: It's always mattered to me. I don't think that's any different. 459 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 2: But I found different outlets for it, and some are 460 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 2: more fun than others. But I when I first published 461 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: my first crime fiction book, Publishers Weekly put out the 462 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 2: banner saying, Clark turns to fiction to control the outcome. 463 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 2: I thought that was right on yeah, truth. But also 464 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 2: I'm handling criminal appeals for the indigen These are court 465 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 2: appointed cases. After someone in California, I think this is 466 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: throughout the country, it gets convicted of a felony, they're 467 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: entitled to an appeal, a direct appeal to the Court 468 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 2: of Appeals by the time they've gone through a trial, 469 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 2: if they even had money at that time, which many don't, 470 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 2: but even if they did, they're tapped out by the 471 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: time it's time for an appeal, and so the Court 472 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 2: of Appeal will point lawyers to represent them. And this 473 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 2: is all in writing. This is all research and writing. 474 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 2: We're error catchers, is what we are, and I'm doing 475 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 2: that as well, so I am still able to seek 476 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 2: the truth and seek justice, you know, in the field 477 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 2: of criminal law in a serious way, not just with 478 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 2: crime fiction. But that's fun too. 479 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: It's so impressive to hear all that you've done and 480 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: all that you've accomplished and all that you're still doing, 481 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: and it's just remarkable. And I have to say, you know, 482 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: you think you know someone, but that when you sit 483 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: down and you talk with them, this is it's been such. 484 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 2: A pleasure you. 485 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: We love real people and real people who've been through 486 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: real ship and uh and are still kicking ass. And 487 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 1: that's exactly what you're doing, so we really it's it's 488 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: inspiring to see you and to hear you, and I 489 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: want you to remind everyone if you wouldn't mind, where 490 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: they can catch this podcast and just let them know 491 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: how they can find it. 492 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 2: You can watch Informants Lawyer X on Apple, Spotify Where 493 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 2: and Wondery Plus. If you subscribe to one Wondery Plus 494 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 2: you'll get it ad free, which is cool, and also 495 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 2: some extras as well, So anywhere you find your podcast, 496 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 2: especially Wondering Plus. Thank you so much, guys, it's been 497 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 2: a real pleasure. 498 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: Marcia, Thank you so much. 499 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 2: Take care