WEBVTT - UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres Talks Major Cuts in Peacekeeping 

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. We have an important

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<v Speaker 1>conversation to bring you now as we work our way

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<v Speaker 1>up to Anger Week in New York. My colleague David Gura,

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<v Speaker 1>the host of The Big Take podcast here on Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>sits down with Antonio good Terras, the United Nations Secretary General,

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<v Speaker 1>and a conversation you'll only hear right here on Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>TV and Radio.

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<v Speaker 2>David Joe, thank you very much, mister Secretary General. Thank

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<v Speaker 2>you very much for the time so good.

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<v Speaker 3>It's pleasure to welcome for you.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to start with the relationship between the United

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<v Speaker 2>States and the United Nations. This is a time when

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<v Speaker 2>it's being called into question. The funding commitment is being

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<v Speaker 2>called into question. So a basic question to start, can

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<v Speaker 2>the UN continue to exist without US financial support?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, first of all, it's important to say that the

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<v Speaker 4>US was essential in the phoning of the DUN and

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<v Speaker 4>it was the most important partner of DUN for most

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<v Speaker 4>of all life. And it's still an extremely important partner.

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<v Speaker 4>And I'm very grateful for all the UN has done

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<v Speaker 4>to the US. At the present moment, as you said,

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<v Speaker 4>we are having some massive cuts. The agencies have responded

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<v Speaker 4>in humanitarian aid and the Development Corporation, which means that

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<v Speaker 4>they reduce stuff, they shrunk their operations. So the UN

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<v Speaker 4>moves on, but of course the people impacted by the

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<v Speaker 4>cuts suffer, which means less food distributed, less vaccines distributed,

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<v Speaker 4>less HIVH treatment distributed. So obviously the impact is not

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<v Speaker 4>in the UN. The impact is in those that benefit

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<v Speaker 4>from the action of our humanitarian development agencies. On the

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<v Speaker 4>other hand, we have the assessed contributions, which means the

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<v Speaker 4>mandatory contributions that would reread by member states for the

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<v Speaker 4>Secretariat and for the peacekeeping operations, and there are cuts

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<v Speaker 4>announced and cuts that probably will take place in the future.

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<v Speaker 4>We have been doing enough measures in the implementation of

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<v Speaker 4>the year's budget to be able to move ahead, and

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<v Speaker 4>we are preparing, if necessary, a series of emergency measures

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<v Speaker 4>to drastically reduce our peace keeping operations, which again is

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<v Speaker 4>not a problem for the UN. We shrink, we shrink,

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<v Speaker 4>we reduce what we are doing. The problem is that

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<v Speaker 4>those peace keepers, that many of them are in places

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<v Speaker 4>where there's no piece to keep with terrorist groups, with

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<v Speaker 4>armed groups. They are sometimes the last resort for the

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<v Speaker 4>protection of civilians, and those are the ones that will suffer.

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<v Speaker 4>So the UN can move on, but the people that

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<v Speaker 4>we support will suffer as.

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<v Speaker 2>The UN, as the US rather steps back or takes

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<v Speaker 2>on this different role. Are there member states who are

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<v Speaker 2>doing more? I think of China and the work that

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<v Speaker 2>you've done to get China to participate more in this body.

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<v Speaker 2>Are they picking up the slack or are they doing

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<v Speaker 2>more now?

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<v Speaker 4>The contributions of China have not changed, and China is

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<v Speaker 4>not going to pay for what the UN doesn't pay.

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<v Speaker 4>What is clear for me is we are moving into

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<v Speaker 4>a multi polar world and that is the reality. People

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<v Speaker 4>usually talk about US and China, But I look at India,

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<v Speaker 4>I look at Indonesia, and look at the Vietnam, I

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<v Speaker 4>look at Brazil. Every single day, these emerging economies represent

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<v Speaker 4>a larger share in the global wealth.

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<v Speaker 3>Every single day.

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<v Speaker 4>They have more influence, and we need to adapt our institutions.

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<v Speaker 3>We need to adapt.

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<v Speaker 4>The UN, the Security Council, we need to adapt the

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<v Speaker 4>Bereton Wood's institutions. We need to adapt all the governance

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<v Speaker 4>mechodis that exist in the world to that reality. This

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<v Speaker 4>is no longer a multipower world, This is no longer

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<v Speaker 4>this is no longer a bipolar This is no longer

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<v Speaker 4>a unipolar world.

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<v Speaker 3>This is at the present.

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<v Speaker 4>Moment a chaotic world, but moving into a multipolar world.

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<v Speaker 4>And we need to build the multilateral institutions of the future.

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<v Speaker 4>That's why we are informing the UN And let's not

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<v Speaker 4>forget there was multipolarity in Europe before the First World War.

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<v Speaker 4>In the absence of multilateral institutions.

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<v Speaker 3>The result was war.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the era of a liberal international order over No.

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<v Speaker 3>No, I believe that.

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<v Speaker 4>If we manage this multipolarity in a way in which

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<v Speaker 4>we bring the emerging economies to fully participate in the

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<v Speaker 4>present bodies, we can preserve the rule of law, we

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<v Speaker 4>can preserve international law in general, and we can preserve

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<v Speaker 4>the nature of our institutions. But the question some people

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<v Speaker 4>think that the Chinese are trying to build a parallel

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<v Speaker 4>system or games. Now I mean the Chinese, the Indians,

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<v Speaker 4>the Indonesians. They want to participate in the present system.

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<v Speaker 4>They want to have their fair share in the present system.

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<v Speaker 4>And I think it's important to look into all of them,

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<v Speaker 4>not only to look into an specific country, because the

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<v Speaker 4>world is changing everywhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you going to meet with President Trump when he

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<v Speaker 2>comes here at next week, and what do you expect

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<v Speaker 2>that meeting to be like? He has had plenty of

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<v Speaker 2>criticisms about this institution and the way it operates.

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<v Speaker 3>Well.

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<v Speaker 4>I hope that this will be a good opportunity to

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<v Speaker 4>strengthen the cooperation between the US and the UN. I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>the relationship between the US and the u N has

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<v Speaker 4>always been a fundamental period of international relations, and I

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<v Speaker 4>hope that it would be possible to work in that

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<v Speaker 4>they're Should.

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<v Speaker 2>We read anything into the fact that there are world

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<v Speaker 2>leaders who didn't get visas to come here this year?

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<v Speaker 3>What does that say about that relationship?

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<v Speaker 4>This is the violation of the past country agreement. This is,

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<v Speaker 4>in my opinion, unacceptable, and I think it's a mistake

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<v Speaker 4>because it's better to have everybody here than to let

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<v Speaker 4>people out when dead people are directly involved in the

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<v Speaker 4>possible solution of the problems.

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<v Speaker 3>That's who you are having.

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<v Speaker 2>You used to be the UN High Commissioner for Refugees

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<v Speaker 2>and a meeting that the US is going to hold

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<v Speaker 2>next week centers on putting new restrictions or limitations on asylum.

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<v Speaker 3>How do you.

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<v Speaker 2>Interpret that effort here to use the UN this forum

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<v Speaker 2>to advocate for something that seems so antithetical or not

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<v Speaker 2>in keeping with what the UN's perspective has been for someone.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a UN convention, the fifture and convention.

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<v Speaker 4>That I believe is one of the most fantastic instruments

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<v Speaker 4>of human rights that was ever created. So it's logic

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<v Speaker 4>that those that want to change the convention do it.

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<v Speaker 4>In the UN, I was a commissioner for Refugees for

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<v Speaker 4>ten years. It was the most exciting work of my

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<v Speaker 4>life where I felt I could really do something directly

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<v Speaker 4>in the most remote locations where people were suffering in.

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<v Speaker 3>A terrible way, and I could take decisions to change

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<v Speaker 3>their lives.

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<v Speaker 4>So that was a fantastic job, and I considered the

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<v Speaker 4>protection of refugees something fundamental and I am completely against

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<v Speaker 4>the idea that we should build a different convention. I

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<v Speaker 4>think the fifty one Convention is one of the most

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<v Speaker 4>important instruments of human rights in the world.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a frustration about the way this institution operates,

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<v Speaker 2>and when I think of the conflict in Ukraine, the

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<v Speaker 2>conflict in Gaza, the Security Council at this moment in

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<v Speaker 2>time is deadlocked. There is vehement disagreement among many of

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<v Speaker 2>the prominent members of that body. How does the broader

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<v Speaker 2>institution continue to operate when you have that part of

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<v Speaker 2>this unable to do its job effectively.

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<v Speaker 3>D N is much more than the scur Council.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, we are by far the main distributors mitarian

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<v Speaker 4>aid in the world. We are in the front line

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<v Speaker 4>of climate tection. I mean, I believe it needs to

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<v Speaker 4>be recognized that the UN has played a very important

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<v Speaker 4>role at the present moment to accelerate climate tection and

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<v Speaker 4>to defeat climate change. We are bringing into the UN

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<v Speaker 4>a very important discussion. We will have the first high

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<v Speaker 4>level debate on artificial intelligence. We are going to create

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<v Speaker 4>an international scientifical panel, independent panel on artificial intelligence that

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<v Speaker 4>will present reports regularly to the whole community. So we

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<v Speaker 4>are involved in lots of activities of all kinds to

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<v Speaker 4>the benefit of the people around the world. We have

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<v Speaker 4>a problem, yes, in the core area of our activity,

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<v Speaker 4>which is peace and security. We depend on a security

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<v Speaker 4>Council that today as a problem with legitimacy because it

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<v Speaker 4>doesn't correspond anymore to the world of today. When we

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<v Speaker 4>were talking about multipolarity, where is the multipolarity in.

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<v Speaker 3>The Security Council? Clearly not and it has a problem

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<v Speaker 3>of efficiency, and that.

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<v Speaker 4>Is a serious restriction for our activity. But I usually say,

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<v Speaker 4>when we do not have a dog, we hunt with

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<v Speaker 4>a cat, but we hunt.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me ask you a couple of questions about the

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<v Speaker 2>conflict in the Middle East. The first is, a number

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<v Speaker 2>of states are coming here intending to recognize a Palestinian state.

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<v Speaker 2>Help me understand in concrete terms what that will do

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<v Speaker 2>if you have a wider number of countries recognizing that,

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<v Speaker 2>what does it mean in concrete.

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<v Speaker 4>I think it's a very important pressure on Israel to

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<v Speaker 4>understand that they cannot move on with the annexation West Bank,

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<v Speaker 4>and that they cannot go move on without accepting the

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<v Speaker 4>idea that we need an immediate cease fire in Gaza,

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<v Speaker 4>with the immediate release of and then conditional release of

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<v Speaker 4>all hostages, and with free humanitarian access in Gaza. And

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<v Speaker 4>especially to say this that for me is very important.

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<v Speaker 4>People say, oh, but the two stage solution is very difficult. Yes,

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<v Speaker 4>but what's alternative a one state solution in which millions

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<v Speaker 4>of Palestdians either will be expelled or will be under

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<v Speaker 4>the system of subjugation discrimination without rights. Is that acceptable

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<v Speaker 4>in the twenty first century? I think it is not.

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<v Speaker 4>If we would move into that one state solution with

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<v Speaker 4>this kind of subjugation, there would be no peace in

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<v Speaker 4>the Middle East and extremism.

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<v Speaker 3>Would rise everywhere in the world.

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<v Speaker 4>We must stop that possibility, and the only chance is

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<v Speaker 4>to convince It will be difficult time, it will be complex,

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<v Speaker 4>but we need to convince these two peoples that share

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<v Speaker 4>the same lens that they need to have two states

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<v Speaker 4>living in peace and security with each other.

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<v Speaker 2>I asked you, if you're going to meet with President Trump,

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<v Speaker 2>will you be meeting with Prime Minister in net Yahoo

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<v Speaker 2>when he comes to New York.

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<v Speaker 4>I am ready to accept any request by Prime Minister

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<v Speaker 4>Nitania to meet the fact that we have different opinions

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<v Speaker 4>doesn't mean that our discussion cannot be very useful.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to ask you about the conclusions of this

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<v Speaker 2>independent commission here at the UN that Israel is committing

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<v Speaker 2>genocide and Gaza, and I expect that you'll say in reply,

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<v Speaker 2>this is an issue of semantics. It's a determination that's

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<v Speaker 2>best left to the international courts. It's not for you.

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<v Speaker 2>But I assume you've looked at that seventy two page

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<v Speaker 2>report in which those findings are laid out and that

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<v Speaker 2>assessment is made, how does it shape your understanding or

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<v Speaker 2>the way that you look at this conflict that's still unfolding.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I mean, first of all, we all condemned in

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<v Speaker 4>clearly and in a very strong way.

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<v Speaker 2>But you will not vollagenously.

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<v Speaker 3>The horrific attacks by Hamas. Let's not forget that that happened.

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<v Speaker 4>But we also consider that it is totally illegitimate, a

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<v Speaker 4>collective punishment of the Palestinian people. And indeed, the situation

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<v Speaker 4>Gaza is horrendous. We have the highest level of death

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<v Speaker 4>and destruction that I've witnessed in my time as Secretary General,

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<v Speaker 4>and we are seeing now in Gaza City the total

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<v Speaker 4>destruction of the city, with people having to move in

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<v Speaker 4>the most desperate circumstances, we have famine.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, it couldn't be worst.

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<v Speaker 4>The legal attribution of genocide, I have not.

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<v Speaker 3>The power to do so.

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<v Speaker 4>It's for the courts and in the United Nations, it's

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<v Speaker 4>the bodies of the United Nations that can decide that,

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<v Speaker 4>the sud de Council or the General Assembly. What I

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<v Speaker 4>can do, and I do, is of course, to denounce what,

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<v Speaker 4>in my opinion is absolutely intolerable from the moral, political

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<v Speaker 4>and legal situation in Gaza, and at the same time

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<v Speaker 4>to mobilize as much as we can in very difficult circumstances,

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<v Speaker 4>all the possible aids to the Policidian people that is

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<v Speaker 4>suffering horrendously.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me ask you lastly about your future. You have

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<v Speaker 2>about a year and a half left in your tenure.

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<v Speaker 2>Research is going to be underway for your successor, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm curious what is a quality you think is essential

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<v Speaker 2>for the person who helms this organization going forward? What

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<v Speaker 2>makes an effective leader of the United Nations at this

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<v Speaker 2>moment when so much we have understood about the international

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<v Speaker 2>order is, if not in doubt changing.

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<v Speaker 4>I think the most import ORDENTI is whoever comes to

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<v Speaker 4>be himself for herself and to fully assume that and

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<v Speaker 4>not to be an instrument of any kind of pressure

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<v Speaker 4>or any kind of negative influence.

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<v Speaker 3>It's to be authentic. I think it's the most important

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<v Speaker 3>in the exercise of this function.

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<v Speaker 2>Mister Secretary General, thank you very much, and Joe and

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<v Speaker 2>Cratill sent it back to you. The Secretary General has

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred and fifty bilateral meetings here over the course

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<v Speaker 2>of the next few weeks. Are very glad you could

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<v Speaker 2>add another one to your agenda here in this conversation

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<v Speaker 2>with us back to you in Washington.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a pleasure fascinating, David GA, thank you so much,

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg's correspondent, host of The Big Take podcast, in conversation

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<v Speaker 1>with the Secretary General of the UN. Of course, David

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<v Speaker 1>and our full team in New York will be bringing

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<v Speaker 1>us extensive coverage of the United Nations General Assembly next

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<v Speaker 1>week from New York