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Speaker 1: Today I initiated a lawsuit against the Trump administration on

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Speaker 1: behalf of the people of the state of California, asserting

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Speaker 1: that Trump does not have the unilateral authority to impose

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Speaker 1: one of the largest tax increases in US history. Impacts

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Speaker 1: of these tariffs are disproportionately being felt here in California,

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Speaker 1: the number one manufacturing state in America, state that will

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Speaker 1: be significantly impacted by this unilateral decision by the President

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Speaker 1: of the United States. I'm looking forward to talking about

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Speaker 1: that more with my next guest. We'll talk trade, we'll

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Speaker 1: talk tariffs, We'll talk about what happened in the last election.

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Speaker 1: Is this two thousand and four all over again? Are

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Speaker 1: Democrats ready for a big comeback? And what does the

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Speaker 1: future hold to My next guest, is he running for

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Speaker 1: president of the United States. This is Gavin Newsom and

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Speaker 1: this is Rob Emmanuel Ron. Thanks for coming on the show.

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Speaker 1: And before we get started, there's so many issues that

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Speaker 1: I want to get to in a relatively short period

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Speaker 1: of time. We'll talk obviously about the state of the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party, the state of our union, tariff's issues, obviously

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Speaker 1: related to your service and time in Asia. But top

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Speaker 1: of mind this week is so much of the attention

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Speaker 1: on Harvard University and their pushback, which generated a lot

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Speaker 1: of interest, including from your old boss, President Obama, who

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Speaker 1: tweeted out a very positive statement on behalf of Harvard,

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Speaker 1: asserting that it's time to assert universities to assert themselves

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Speaker 1: more aggressively as it relates to what Trump's trying to do.

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Speaker 1: I'm just curious what your thoughts were on Harvard and moreover,

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Speaker 1: what's happening with higher education and respect to the Trump administration.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm of a couple of minds on higher education,

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Speaker 2: and one is I mean, I don't think anybody's pointed

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Speaker 2: this out, but you know, Donald Trump started his kind

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Speaker 2: of introduction into public life in one way or another

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Speaker 2: with Roy who is Joe McCarthy's right hand man. And

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Speaker 2: the attack on university is infamous back in the McCarthy era,

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Speaker 2: squashing both the role of the university has played in

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Speaker 2: our book life and also academic freedom. And that's one element.

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Speaker 2: The second element is, you know, having been in Japan,

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Speaker 2: but I knew this without going to Japan. The American

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Speaker 2: university system, I mean California, you know this firsthand, and

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Speaker 2: it's role that it plays from a research and development

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Speaker 2: on cutting edge technologies, new entrepreneur not only entrepreneurs, but

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Speaker 2: new entrepreneurship, new ideas with business models. I met somebody

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Speaker 2: from Stanford the other day in the AI space who's

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Speaker 2: now got a company that's an example of what is

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Speaker 2: so unique, and people Japan, israel I can give you

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Speaker 2: all over the world in Europe all admire what we

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Speaker 2: have built year over year over year. And not only

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Speaker 2: is the political freedom happening, but we're actually now billing

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Speaker 2: the goose laid the golden egg for America's economic competitiveness.

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Speaker 2: And then, third, if you think of the future on

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Speaker 2: the international level as a battle not of a Cold

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Speaker 2: war in the sense of ideological Soviet Universus the free world,

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Speaker 2: but as a technological battle and competition between the United

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Speaker 2: States and China, we are really, you know, latterly disarmed.

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Speaker 2: And then fourth, and finally a governor, I take offense

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Speaker 2: as an American and as a Jewish American, the idea

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Speaker 2: that you're going to use anti Semitism or the what

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Speaker 2: universities had as a culture. And I think there's a

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Speaker 2: legitimate point to address that and reform that. But using

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Speaker 2: anti semitism to uh literally destroy our academic institutions in

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Speaker 2: university and the and they that's how they're getting the

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Speaker 2: goods through customs. So quote unquote dealing with anti Semitism,

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Speaker 2: and you know, you know, you and I are talking

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Speaker 2: on passover the we could pass over the idea that

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Speaker 2: the Jewish Commune would find any comfort with one person's

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Speaker 2: opinion as opposed to the rule of law. I got

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Speaker 2: two thousand years of history that tells you that doesn't

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Speaker 2: turn out well. So I said, I can go at

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Speaker 2: this like five different angles. And I'm hoping Harvard and

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Speaker 2: not just Harvard, but other universities, other law firms, other institutions.

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Speaker 2: And I would say that to the Supreme Court, you're

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Speaker 2: going to find out whether that black robe is a

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Speaker 2: Halloween costume or you actually earned it and understand it

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Speaker 2: because he's challenging you. There's nothing sacred, So everybody's gonna

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Speaker 2: have to decide, you know, and reach deep down. Harvard

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Speaker 2: has other universities are going to have to do the

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Speaker 2: same and decide that, you know what, there's something set

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Speaker 2: of principles here that are more important than accommodation.

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Speaker 1: And I appreciate the reference on the rule to law,

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Speaker 1: particularly as it relates to Supreme Court. But I'm just curious,

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Speaker 1: I mean interesting, you sort of an origin story with

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Speaker 1: roe coin with Roy that I hadn't really considered. But

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Speaker 1: what I mean is there something?

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Speaker 2: I mean?

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Speaker 1: You know, he talks often Trump, doesn't he about how

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Speaker 1: highly educated people are. He's always impressed with people's looks.

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Speaker 1: He's impressed with their education.

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Speaker 2: Well, looks has nothing to do with how educated you are.

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Speaker 1: No, no question about that. But what is I mean?

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Speaker 1: So it's an interesting thing to me, just as an

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Speaker 1: observer someone watches obviously Trump closely, this notion that higher

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Speaker 1: education some establishment plot. Is this a political agenda? Is

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Speaker 1: this a total twenty five agenda?

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Speaker 2: They're getting their goods through customs here? Look, First of all,

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Speaker 2: the whole idea of tenure for professors was built coming

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Speaker 2: out of the McCarthy are so you could not be

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Speaker 2: prosecuted for your political views. That's the orgy of it.

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Speaker 2: That's where ten years as a concept is nurtured. If

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Speaker 2: I'm reading history correctly, that's where it comes from. And

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Speaker 2: professor were given a ability to be protected professionally and

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Speaker 2: not being prosecuted for any political expression or views. And

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Speaker 2: now were there things that university's got way off track

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Speaker 2: on one hundred percent. Were there reforms that were needed

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Speaker 2: to be done, Yeah, that and there's not a university

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Speaker 2: president or a board revery. They wuldn't tell you that

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Speaker 2: was true. Destroying the academic and only freedom, but also

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Speaker 2: the research elements and trying to coerce their behavior. Now

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Speaker 2: we're going to do the worst of McCarthyism. And I

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Speaker 2: don't think it's a coincidence. I think it's actually direct.

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump's mentor in public life is Roy Cohne, who

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Speaker 2: was also Joe McCarthy's mentor and sidekick. And so we're

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Speaker 2: living in a period of time, and I don't think

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Speaker 2: I don't think I'm being dramatic or hyperbolic, but that's

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Speaker 2: the period of time. These institutions, not just Ivy League

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Speaker 2: but public university as well, have a history of them

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Speaker 2: having stood up, having their voices heard and pushed back.

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Speaker 2: And I know you want to stay in this area,

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Speaker 2: and I just so I just say this. I find

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Speaker 2: it offensive that you're using quote unquote anti semitism that

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Speaker 2: was perpetuated on the universities to really deal with your

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Speaker 2: political agenda. So let me just say this, Like the

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Speaker 2: student at Columbia. I disagree with his views on AMAS.

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Speaker 2: I disagree with this what happened on obviously, what happened

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Speaker 2: on October seventh. You want to deal with him in

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Speaker 2: some way? Have him forced him to do community service

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Speaker 2: as an intern at the Holocaust Museum for a year now?

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Speaker 2: All he was expressing his views which I find at

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Speaker 2: port and I think the American people will see it.

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Speaker 2: Killing twelve hundred citizens because they were Jewish is not acceptable.

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Speaker 2: Cutting a fetus out of a woman is not only

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Speaker 2: on acceptable, it's a crime, Okay, And you want to

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Speaker 2: identify with that. We can handle that as a country

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Speaker 2: without having to destroy either Columbia University, Harvard University, or

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Speaker 2: a public university.

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Speaker 1: Well said, So, No, look, I appreciate that, of course.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm serving on the UC Regions board as a

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Speaker 1: lieutenant governor governor. No more precious system from my perspective

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Speaker 1: in terms of conveyor belt for talent for this country

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Speaker 1: and the research and development component of that. And you're

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Speaker 1: extending beyond that, I mean the NIH grants and all

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Speaker 1: the other efforts to really wreck the systems, put.

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Speaker 2: The research aside. Could you reform it? Yes? The universities

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Speaker 2: were skimning some dollars. That's an easy way to reform,

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Speaker 2: but don't throw out the goose that lays the gold

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Speaker 2: in that. The second is as it relates to academic

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Speaker 2: non academic freedoms, things that were done to Jewish students,

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Speaker 2: Jewish culture, Jewish life on universities that would never be

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Speaker 2: accepted to any other minority group, and that true had

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Speaker 2: to be dealt with, and the university is being forthcoming

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Speaker 2: about that would be helpful, But don't use anti semitism

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Speaker 2: or the attack on the Jewish community at a university

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Speaker 2: to as your way of getting your goods through customs

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Speaker 2: to actually fulfill a political agenda that was articulated in

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Speaker 2: Project twenty twenty five early before.

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Speaker 1: That's right, so let's you know, and just sort of

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Speaker 1: segue from Harvard. I mean, there are a number of

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Speaker 1: Harvard graduates that happened to be members of the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 1: and you reference the Court. And obviously another big story

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Speaker 1: in the last few days has been referenced in the

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Speaker 1: Oval Office visit with President Mukelly of El Salvador and

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Speaker 1: the conversation that was very publicly held in the Oval

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Speaker 1: Office related tissues around the Supreme Court's Nino decision and

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Speaker 1: the defiance apparently the defiance of PAM BEYONDI, the Attorney

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Speaker 1: General and obviously the president himself, including the President of

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Speaker 1: El Salvador as it relates to that ruling. I mean,

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Speaker 1: how concerned are you? People have talked about a constitutional crisis,

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Speaker 1: They talk about red lines, They talk about the foundational

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Speaker 1: principles of our founding fathers, three independent branches of government.

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Speaker 1: When you defy or apparently defy as Supreme Court ruling,

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Speaker 1: have we crossed that red line? Are we on the

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Speaker 1: other side of this? Are we being hyperbolic?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't think you'd be good. But look, I

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Speaker 2: think we're going to find out whether the black robes

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Speaker 2: that the members of the Court where are a Halloween

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Speaker 2: constitule or they represent the dignity of the Court and

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Speaker 2: its opinion as a coequal branch government. They were not

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Speaker 2: ambiguous as related to the individual and that the United

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Speaker 2: States acknowledged they wrongfully sent to the Alsa Ouvadoor prison.

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Speaker 2: Now the Court is either going to show that not

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Speaker 2: the Court's opinions are the final verdict. An opinion now

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Speaker 2: need to be executed by the executive branch and if

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Speaker 2: he defies them and they take no step in that. Uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of ways to deal with

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, individual citizens that are held in

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Speaker 2: contempt of the court. There's a lot of different ways

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Speaker 2: to deal with this. And look, I go back to

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Speaker 2: when Chief Justice Roberts was being confirmed by the Senate.

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Speaker 2: He said that judges are like umpires. That was his words,

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Speaker 2: they call balls and struts. Well you called this one. Now,

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Speaker 2: Either you're going to allow your opinion as an umpire,

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Speaker 2: which I happened. I think is a horrible metaphor, but

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Speaker 2: you used it, and you're going to let your opinion

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Speaker 2: hold the day, or basically it's a fungible opinion. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter what you said. Now, I'm not a lawyer.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you are a governor. But I

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Speaker 2: studied the Constitution and I always understood there were three

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Speaker 2: branches of co equal branches of government, not one above

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Speaker 2: all others. We're going to find out something about the court,

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Speaker 2: not just the president.

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Speaker 1: Amen. The best of Roman Republic, Greek democracy, independent co

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Speaker 1: equo branches the government, popular sovereignty, sort of fundamental principles

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Speaker 1: we've been celebrating for two hundred and forty plus years. Look,

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Speaker 1: we've also been sort of reflecting in the last few

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Speaker 1: weeks the years and years that Donald Trump himself and

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Speaker 1: back to I think the origin story, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's really interesting and insightful how you began the conversation

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Speaker 1: as relates to Roy Cohen in the history of McCarthyism

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Speaker 1: and relationship to this moment, and so much I think

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Speaker 1: about Trump goes back to sort of indelible ideological perspectives

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Speaker 1: that he's had for years and years and years, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think we give more enough credence to that,

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Speaker 1: including on the issue that connects to you in a

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Speaker 1: more modern term and your ambassadoral time in Japan, and

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Speaker 1: that's the issue of tariff's where Trump, I think, in

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Speaker 1: the eighties put out a full page add if I

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Speaker 1: recall around how unfair trade policy was and how Japan

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Speaker 1: at the time was cleaning our clock. And here we

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Speaker 1: are fast forward with all these terror policies. So are

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Speaker 1: you surprised that we're where we are? Obviously you have

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Speaker 1: strong opinions about the recklessness of it, but from an

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Speaker 1: historic perspective of that perspective of that prism, is it

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Speaker 1: surprise you he's what he's advancing.

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Speaker 2: What he's advanced. So let's deal with a couple of

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Speaker 2: things that I think are all in there. One is

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Speaker 2: it doesn't surprise me either he said he was going

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Speaker 2: to do the tariffs. What surprised me is the erraticness,

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Speaker 2: because it was the one constant thing he said in

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Speaker 2: the campaign, one constant thing, as you said, in his

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Speaker 2: public life, and it's been the most erratic, not thought

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Speaker 2: through most I mean as opposed to kind of the

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Speaker 2: Project twenty twenty five stuff that he didn't mention. That's

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Speaker 2: been unbelievably like there was a strategy. Here is what

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Speaker 2: he did mention, and it's just every day is a

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Speaker 2: new day. Look. It's the largest tax increase in American history.

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Speaker 2: Cool Stoff. Two. It's a corrupt system because whoever goes

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Speaker 2: to Marrow Lago gets a cut, gets a cut, as

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Speaker 2: you're seeing on car.

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Speaker 1: Pause on that. I think that's the most under reported

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Speaker 1: part of this. The regressive tax side is one thing.

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Speaker 1: What this means for crony capitalism is another.

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Speaker 2: This is the worst of as I said when he

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Speaker 2: first got elected but wasn't inaugurated. Here he's going to

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Speaker 2: turn the Oval Office into eBay, and it's the highest bidder,

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Speaker 2: and if it ain't nailed down, he's gonna sell it.

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Speaker 2: And it's crony capitals. Here is my another p and

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Speaker 2: it's affecting the dollar. It's affecting this your four one K.

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Speaker 2: But here's the other piece. Twenty years ago, China was

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Speaker 2: on the rise in America was seen as stagnating to climb. Right,

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Speaker 2: g does a couple of things that is the worst

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Speaker 2: economic damage anyone person to do, and he did it

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Speaker 2: to China. He busts the housing bubble, he busts the

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Speaker 2: municipal debt bubble, He cracks down on the private sector.

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Speaker 2: Foreign investment fleas, foreign entrepreneurs flee, entrepreneurs and stop, and

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Speaker 2: the economy goes into what people were referring to as

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Speaker 2: a Japanese style deflation, and youth unemployment shoots way up.

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Speaker 2: The United States is on the rocks, money is flowing in,

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Speaker 2: unemployment is down, manufacturing is coming back. And China's strategy

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Speaker 2: in that scenario is We're going to export our problems

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Speaker 2: through manufacturing all across the globe. Chile lose its only

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Speaker 2: steel plan, South Africa is about to lose their steel plan.

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Speaker 2: Countries that are aligned with China, Brazil, Mexico file wto

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Speaker 2: cases against China. We're the safe harbor. We're the adult,

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Speaker 2: that is the United States. What happens we do these

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Speaker 2: tariffs are erratic and then all of a sudden, China

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Speaker 2: looks like a place of stability, and we look like

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Speaker 2: the chaos agent. Rather than China being isolated in the world,

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Speaker 2: aligning with the United States, the United States gets isolated

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Speaker 2: and we have turned. We had China and they knew it.

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Speaker 2: They said, this doesn't require interpretation. China said, you're isolating us.

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Speaker 2: We took advantage of China's on goal they did to

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Speaker 2: themselves economically through their mercantilism, what their wolf warrior was

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Speaker 2: on the diplomatic front, and we used it strategically better

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Speaker 2: than we actually assumed we could do. And we just

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Speaker 2: committed the worst on goal and snapping the literally ripping

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Speaker 2: the victory from the jaws at the feet. And now

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Speaker 2: we're the isolated party. And what's worse. And let me

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Speaker 2: say this is a father with two children, one full

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Speaker 2: time and the other reserve enlisted in the armed forces.

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Speaker 2: Nineteen seventy nine, Governor was the first time the United

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Speaker 2: States deployed a sanctioned it was on Iran and used

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Speaker 2: its economic power and the power of the dollar, so

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Speaker 2: we didn't have to do something kinetic Milternally, we refined

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Speaker 2: this and really become experts going through the War on Terror,

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Speaker 2: and we had built up the capacity. And one of

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Speaker 2: the things that China and Russia hated was the United

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Speaker 2: States through the dollar, could economically punish you in a

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Speaker 2: way that it didn't have to require the US military

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Speaker 2: to do it, but we could use our economic power

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Speaker 2: and our power of our dollar. We have destroyed, destroyed,

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Speaker 2: not inhibited, one of the most important tools we have

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Speaker 2: developed over fifty years to punish an adversary without putting

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Speaker 2: men and women in the United States uniform at risk.

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Speaker 2: This is, as my grandfather would say, a shanda. It's

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Speaker 2: a crime committed against ourselves. It is ridiculous. Now, most

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Speaker 2: importantly the American people, I give them a lot of credit.

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Speaker 2: It took them. They didn't go to Harvard, they didn't

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Speaker 2: go to Columbia.

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Speaker 1: They didn't they didn't even get a four year degree.

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Speaker 2: Most of all, we knew that a tariff was a

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Speaker 2: taxed on day one, and they knew they were going

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Speaker 2: to get hosed right, figured it out without going to

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Speaker 2: business school, knew it up front, rejected it, and he

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Speaker 2: is showing political the political peril of his own position.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we completely betrayed them, right, I mean by definition

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Speaker 1: number one, day one bringing down prices, number one promise.

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Speaker 2: Look the one look, we have our own problem with Democrats.

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Speaker 2: Will get to that and the rest of this podcast.

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Speaker 2: But the one thing you can say about Donald Trump,

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Speaker 2: He'll portray you insteady in the back and he's doing

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Speaker 2: it all and the American people are going to punish

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Speaker 2: the Republicans for this, and you saw it in the election.

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Speaker 1: So let me and I definitely would look forward to

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Speaker 1: talking about the political implications. But let's just talk about

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Speaker 1: the practical. I mean, because you've yeah, I mean you've

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Speaker 1: you've experienced firsthand, up close, our efforts, particularly during the

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Speaker 1: Biden administration. I really applaud those eforts, particularly with Japan

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Speaker 1: and Korea, and in relationship to China. You were very vocal,

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Speaker 1: very vocal, more than any ambassador, which took some courage,

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Speaker 1: I thought. Against China, you've seen this sort of geopolitical shuffle.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what are they saying? You know, Trump's now

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Speaker 1: saying We're respected around the world. What are they saying

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Speaker 1: in the halls with our allies? I mean, how consequential

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Speaker 1: is this to trust? And how long is this wound?

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Speaker 2: Going to festiv I would say to you Governor, first

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Speaker 2: of all, in eighty days he's destroyed eighty years of

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Speaker 2: credibility in the United States, a big hit on our credibility.

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Speaker 2: You can look at into Pacific, you can look at

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Speaker 2: the Middle East. You can do in Europe, if can

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Speaker 2: look at Africa. No one reason is more outweighs another.

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Speaker 2: The most important thing post Donald Trump is somehow restoring

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Speaker 2: trust and credibility to the United States. Work. People are

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Speaker 2: ridiculing the I say, I said, if you don't just

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Speaker 2: then word. But also indeed I worked tirelessly and I

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Speaker 2: give the President and the Nationality Apparatus credit. With my

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Speaker 2: colleague in South Korea in the historic coming together at

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Speaker 2: Camp David between the President, the President of South Korea,

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Speaker 2: and the Prime Minister of Japan, we all three countries

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Speaker 2: have a complicated history. We came together saw the future

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Speaker 2: is more important than the past, and embraced it and

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Speaker 2: shaped it. Two weeks ago, China brought together the foreign

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Speaker 2: ministers of Korea and Japan. With them, they announced an

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Speaker 2: economic partnership to the ground and develop Korea that was

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Speaker 2: essential to the our export controls against the semiconductor industry

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Speaker 2: in China. Samsung, the shining corporate semi conductor company in Korea,

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Speaker 2: announced an agreement with the Chinese company. Now nobody's respecting

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Speaker 2: the United States, nobody's trusting the United States. They're looking

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Speaker 2: out for their own self interests. That meeting China, Korea

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Speaker 2: and Japan never would have happened on the kind of

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Speaker 2: level it happened with the outgrowth that happened, and we

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Speaker 2: not committed and isolated ourselves with the tariff policy that

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Speaker 2: hit ally and adversary with equal force. So it's an

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Speaker 2: end goal. It's no other way to describe.

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Speaker 1: It, would you extend? I mean, obviously there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of talk now in South Korea about the prospect of

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Speaker 1: a Korean peninsula where everyone is a nuclear power. Obviously

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Speaker 1: there's now renewed conversations, which is remarkable to me. You

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Speaker 1: would understand it better than anyone in Japan even I mean,

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Speaker 1: do you think that's an outgrowth of this moment or

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Speaker 1: is that a more complicated question that may pre date,

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Speaker 1: the recklessness of Trump's tariff announcements.

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Speaker 2: So one is everybody used to say, oh about non proliferation,

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Speaker 2: it was expensive what we did. You're about to get

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Speaker 2: sticker shock on proliferation. You're here. We spent the year

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Speaker 2: and a half. I was having more on the sidelines

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Speaker 2: than this one vincent Korea not to go nuclear, but

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Speaker 2: divide with the United States and a whole process of

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Speaker 2: that fast forward. What happens is I think Korea is

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Speaker 2: going to look at the United States as an untrusted

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Speaker 2: ally and they're going to make a decision. With North

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Speaker 2: Korea's possession of nuclear capacity, China's capacity, they're going to

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Speaker 2: go nuclear and they're not going to put their faith

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Speaker 2: in the United States anymore. And if Korea does it, Japan,

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Speaker 2: So just close your eyes. Pakistan, India, China, North Korea,

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Speaker 2: South Korea, and Japan all in that region will be nuclear.

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Speaker 2: What could go wrong? It's insane. I want to go

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Speaker 2: double back on some of my skips, and I want

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Speaker 2: to say something about the tariffs. Heet asked if I

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Speaker 2: could governor. We're treating textiles, toys and technology as equals,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know the idea that we're going to

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Speaker 2: see technology or semiconductors, and I'm not saying they're more,

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Speaker 2: but they are slightly more valuable than a T shirt

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Speaker 2: from our economic capacity and strength. So if you're going

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Speaker 2: to have a policy making sure that America's own economy

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Speaker 2: is secure in slightly more self sufficient than where it was,

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Speaker 2: you don't treat toys manufactured in China, textiles manufactured in

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Speaker 2: Southeast Asia, and technology like semiconductors as if they're equal

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Speaker 2: economic capacity. And lastly, what's also lost in the spate.

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Speaker 2: Almost forty five percent of all imports into the United

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Speaker 2: States are things that go into our own manufacturing base.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to affect manufacturing, but not the way

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Speaker 2: that Donald Trump said. It will have an impact on manufacturing.

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Speaker 2: It will actually lead to unemployment in the manufacturing. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you know this, and I'm sure you

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Speaker 2: do because you have your own industrial base in California.

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Speaker 2: There's five hundred thousand manufacturing jobs today with the help

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Speaker 2: want it signed around it. Yep, we're short workers. You

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Speaker 2: know this and I know this is going around. I

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Speaker 2: used to have CEOs come through here. I talked to

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Speaker 2: them in this today you do too. Biggest item besides

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Speaker 2: this regulation or that, that's biggest item, a workforce that

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Speaker 2: they can't find. Right, So if we started at home,

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Speaker 2: we would be Actually, there's five hundred thousand manufacturing jobs today.

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Speaker 2: We could have done something about with it before we

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Speaker 2: hit the tear off kaas.

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Speaker 1: Look, I appreciate it. Also speaking of kids, I've got

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Speaker 1: four kids and they still love toys. I think eighty

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Speaker 1: percent of the toys under the Christmas Tree come from China.

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Speaker 1: They've doubled the cost of that. Obviously, if you're got

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Speaker 1: your four to one K as you said earlier, and

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Speaker 1: I think the focus on four to one K more

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Speaker 1: than the markets. I think even Carvo brought that up

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Speaker 1: in a recent op ed I thought was very wise

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Speaker 1: and connects with people on more a much more personal way.

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Speaker 1: But I want to highlight what you just said. California

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Speaker 1: is the biggest manufacturing state in America. People forget that.

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Speaker 1: Californiumber one and two way trade, number one and direct

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Speaker 1: foreign investment, and number one manufacturing state in America. Forty

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Speaker 1: percent of the goods movements in this country come through

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Speaker 1: two ports of entry in California, about fifty percent of

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Speaker 1: that from China itself. No state has more to lose,

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Speaker 1: more to gain as it relates to ag as it

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Speaker 1: relates to all of these industries and tech as you

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Speaker 1: noted AI, etc. So that's, by the way, why we

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Speaker 1: just filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration, and we

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Speaker 1: did it on I think very sound grounds and it's

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Speaker 1: an interesting lawsuit for many different reasons. But we've got

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Speaker 1: to push back much more aggressively on the consequences of this.

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Speaker 2: Let me say this without trying to go into a

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Speaker 2: witness protection plan, which.

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Speaker 1: By the way is hyperbole but not necessarily in this

431
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 1: day and age. So I appreciate the cabin Yeah, do

432
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: you know a lawyer before? By the way, none at

433
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: SCAT and ARBs, none at Paul Weiss, none of all

434
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: these firms that have capitulated. You brought that up at

435
00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: the top.

436
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 2: Here's the thing is the analysis that we have a

437
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: problem where America did not invest in America or Americans

438
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 2: and it led to our economic independence being adversely not

439
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 2: only affected, but it also affected our civic life because

440
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: people lost confidence in America by Americans. That is not

441
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 2: a wrong analysis going about that. Terifs are the most

442
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 2: beautiful word in the English language and hitting everything ally

443
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 2: and adversary the same, not thinking to it through strategically,

444
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,479
Speaker 2: not understanding the difference between toys and technology. From an

445
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 2: economic standpoint is actually the cure is worse than the illness,

446
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 2: and it's going to be affect people's family budgets, can

447
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: affect their employment, It's going to affect a whole host

448
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: of things and their economic security, their retirement security, their

449
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 2: education for their children. And so to me, your first

450
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 2: question kind of was I get the analysis of what

451
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 2: it ailes America or one of the things that ails America.

452
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 2: It's not wrong, but like all things Trump, he makes

453
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: the problem much more severe than address it. There you go, yep,

454
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: in every aspect. Take the academic institutions. Were there things

455
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 2: that they had done over the years that got them

456
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 2: off kilter one hundred percent? But using anti semitism to

457
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: execute a political strategy to silence universities and academics.

458
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: No, that's exactly right. And so I know I'm with

459
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: you on what you're saying is you're not an anti

460
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: tariff absolutist. Do you believe in targeted terriffs?

461
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: And along the lines of way, No, I didn't say that,

462
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 2: actual I know I want to be. I want to

463
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: speak what.

464
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 1: Are you But you've been But you've been. You haven't

465
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: been opposed to tariffs in the past. I mean you've

466
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: you know the Biden administration triple them on Chinese steel

467
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: and aluminum.

468
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: Here's my thing is, if we've got a problem, what

469
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 2: does it take to address and build an industry? Now, look,

470
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: my analysis going back then as a massive China is

471
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 2: the one that came up with self sufficiency as an

472
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: economic model. That's why there's exporting their mercantilism and crushing

473
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 2: all these countries around the world. They've decided how to

474
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: isolate themselves from the world rather than interact with the world.

475
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: And it's only on China's term. If you want to

476
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: apply a tariff, my view is, okay, what are the

477
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: things that we are going to do that tariff give

478
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 2: us a window of time. What are our investments, what's

479
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 2: our training? What are we going to do from a

480
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 2: research standpoint in semiconductors, in steel, or pick your industry.

481
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: I'm not for tariffs. They are a tool in a toolbox.

482
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: But tell me what we're doing with all the tools

483
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: in the toolbox. So you have an integrated cohesive comprehend

484
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: of strategy. If we don't train the workers for the

485
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: five hundred thousand jobs, I don't care what terrafs you do. Yeah, okay.

486
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 2: And if you're not going to fund some research, that's

487
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: take a look. You know. I'll just say this, fracking

488
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: as a technology came out of our universities. Look we're

489
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 2: now we went from a four hundred billion dollar import

490
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 2: to a forty five billion dollar export. That's a big swing.

491
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: Tell me what we're going to now. People are thinking

492
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: of using that hydraulic technology to do geothermal. Tell me

493
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: what we're doing, what the worth, the end line, and

494
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 2: what are all the pieces that fit into that. We're

495
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,959
Speaker 2: just going by gut instincts of one guy who failed

496
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: seven businesses.

497
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,959
Speaker 1: So what you're saying I mean, And to be to

498
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: be more clear than the basis of that reaction, targeted

499
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: tariffs with an industrial policy, with a policy to back

500
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,239
Speaker 1: it up, with a rationale to use it as a

501
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: tool for strategic national security issues or for legitimate questions

502
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: around imbalance of trade or unfair present People like the

503
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: Secretary of Commerce and the President who believe tariffs are

504
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: the economic toolbox, they're not.

505
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: They are a tool in the toolbox, But you tell

506
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: me each sector, what is the strategy. What are we

507
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 2: going to do for training? What are we going to

508
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 2: do for infrastructure? What are we doing for research and development?

509
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: How are we going to take certain US companies and

510
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 2: build them up or invite foreign investors to build those up?

511
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: And I'll give you example. Take the shipbuilding industry Japan

512
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 2: and Korea unbelievably capable of coming in and investing in

513
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 2: helping build that domestic industry in the United States. Are

514
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: they banned? Are they part of that? Are they allies

515
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: that we're going to invite in to help us jump

516
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: start something that we've lost our muscle memory on. That's

517
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 2: a strategy. I want to I just what it is

518
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: we're going to do. What's the roadmap here? So everybody

519
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: knows how to contribute and knows what the goal line

520
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 2: is or what the end point is.

521
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: This is an opportun unity to pivot a little bit,

522
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: but pivot with a little bit of self reflection. And

523
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: one of the things I really appreciated.

524
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 2: It that's going to be hard for an e manual.

525
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: That's well, I don't know, you've been pretty I was

526
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: about to compliment you as an emmanual.

527
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: Self reflection on the podcast too. Yeah.

528
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: No, I mean, well, you know we could we could

529
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: get in a deeper conversation. Yeah, all two of your

530
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: two other brothers. Yeah, we could talk about as well.

531
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: You already think you brought up the family in the

532
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: context of what was the word you used, wasn't misschi gosh?

533
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: What was it?

534
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: Shonda? It's a it's a. It's an embarrassment. It's a shonda.

535
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: I like it. I'm going to steal that.

536
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 2: It's it's half sin, half comparison.

537
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: It's good. It's the moment. But let me talk about

538
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: a different moment. I mean you and you were part

539
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: of it, and frankly, I think all of us where

540
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: a lot of us were parroting it to be Canada,

541
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: you know, as I sort of a Clinton Democrat back

542
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: in the day nafta the WTO. You know, people talk

543
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: a lot about the WTO sort of as a point

544
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: of emphasis that sort of led to this point, not

545
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: just an op ed in the nineteen eighties or add

546
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: by Trump as it relates to his positions on trade.

547
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: You know, what do you make of the Democratic Party

548
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,719
Speaker 1: and our culpability for this moment and the hollowing out

549
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: of our industrial base and the need to jump start.

550
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: I mean what, Just take their arguments, the ban and arguments.

551
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: Take the arguments of Trump and the accolytes around him

552
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: that it's time to reindustrialize, it's time to bring those

553
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: supply chains home, it's time to really start focusing. Yes,

554
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: dare I say it on America first?

555
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 2: Rom Look, I don't so I agree with that on

556
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: both America and Americans first, as a person who first

557
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,959
Speaker 2: city to ever create free community college and make sure

558
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: high school isn't the endpoint of a public commitment to education.

559
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 2: And so, Governor, here's what I would say, And I'll

560
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: talk to both both NAFTIN and WT and WTO meaning

561
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: China into WTO, and they're slightly different, but of single spirit.

562
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 2: The mistake, it's a mistake, and we own a polity

563
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: American people, is we allowed Lacrosse, Wisconsin, Peoria, Illinois, Youngstown, Ohio, Saginaw, Michigan,

564
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: or Battle Creek, Michigan, or Terre Hoo, Indiana, to navigate

565
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,239
Speaker 2: the world market on their own against China and much

566
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 2: bigger forces. We didn't. We didn't. If you go back

567
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 2: to NAFTA, President Clinton had proposed a billions and billions

568
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 2: of dollars of investment that was turned down by Congress,

569
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: ended up with like a job training program, like about you,

570
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 2: and basically said here, you're on your own. And the

571
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: truth is you and I and our kids we're going

572
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 2: to get the rewards of the system that we built.

573
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 2: That's not true for everybody. The American dream is not

574
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 2: has been unaffordable and inaccessible every year after every year,

575
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: and it's down now to about temper sent the children

576
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: of American families have access. All American people want is

577
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 2: a simple thing, a shot in the American dream, and

578
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: they got the shaft. And he left communities unprotected against China.

579
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,239
Speaker 2: Peoria is not set up, and the people who live

580
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: in Burea to fight China on their own. And that's

581
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 2: just an observation. That's just a fact. And while trade

582
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 2: had benefits, the benefits were not equally shared and the

583
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 2: risk was not equally shared. And that's a fact. And

584
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 2: for too long it was ignored as a scream and

585
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: a yell. And you can explain something of Donald Trump

586
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: in that now on wto I same analysis, except for

587
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 2: I would say one coveyat when China was brought in.

588
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 2: It was part of in the same way that Russia

589
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: was brought into NATO and Russia was brought into the

590
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 2: G seven. It was a theory of the case. And

591
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,439
Speaker 2: it's a kind of a sixty forty issue. It's better

592
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 2: to have him in the tent pissing out than outside

593
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 2: the ten person And to use an LBJ term not

594
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 2: it's not you know this as governor. I know as

595
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: a mayor's chief staff. Nothing's one hundred zero. That's what

596
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 2: you have AI for. These are judgment calls. It was

597
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 2: better to think that you can make China had invested

598
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 2: in the system we had. By twenty twelve, when she

599
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 2: becomes president of China, it's very clear they go from

600
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: strategic competitor to strategic adversaries much different. And it was

601
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 2: actually also very clear, and I say this as Congressmant

602
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: represented many companies as chief of staff, dealing with CEOs China.

603
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 2: Intellectual property theft and economic espionage is core to the

604
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 2: business model in a way that patents and rule of

605
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 2: law are core to ours. And in twenty twelve we

606
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 2: held out strategic competitor, ignoring things that we knew were happening,

607
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 2: and they went to strategic adversary and core to their idea.

608
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 2: You have Google based in California. Only one country was

609
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 2: stealing AI secrets from them. It's called China. They do

610
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 2: it all over our universities, they do it all over

611
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: our companies. It's core to them, and we ignored it.

612
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 2: Now twenty twelve, we should have blown the whistle, called

613
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 2: the game and said this is a different game. And

614
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 2: the only thing I would say is that we woke

615
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 2: up on Wolf Warrior the economic coersion ten years earlier

616
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 2: than trying to expected us, and we started making use

617
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 2: of that kind So was it a mistake in nineteen

618
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: ninety nine? I got to be honest, if it was

619
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 2: a sixty forty sixty five thirty five call, do you

620
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 2: let them stay out or you bring them in? And

621
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: when they started changing and not playing by the rules

622
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 2: they agreed to, they should have gotten called out earlier

623
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 2: and not just called out. The whistle should have been

624
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 2: blown and they should have been forfeited the game and

625
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: being dealt with differently. They're not a developing economy. They

626
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 2: were cheating and stealing their way to economic secrets. And

627
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 2: not only cheating and stealing, we permitted American companies to

628
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 2: give away research and development to get access to a market. Well,

629
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, taxpayers pay for that research and development. We

630
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 2: own that as much as anyone company owns that R

631
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 2: and D. When we give you a tax credit, we're

632
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 2: an equity investor. We gave away our family jewels because

633
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: a bunch of company CEOs, all of us did. D

634
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: are most side of Pennsylvania, avenue governors everywhere, because what

635
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: they wanted access to the market. And the biggest mistake,

636
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 2: we commercialized our forms and national security policy. We commercialized it.

637
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: The business community had way too big a vote, a

638
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 2: big mistake, and now we have to make up for

639
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 2: that lost time. We were in the process of doing that.

640
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 2: And I think what we're doing treating allies is if

641
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 2: their adversaries adversaries, is the one day they become allies.

642
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,479
Speaker 2: And as a total mistake, because we don't know friend

643
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 2: from foe.

644
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: Here here and you say we start and this is

645
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: segue then to the Biden years, And you know, I've

646
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 1: been very vocal. I thought it was a master class

647
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: of policy making. I thought it was extraordinary legislative accomplishments.

648
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 1: Three hundred and sixty nine billion dollars in the IRA

649
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: fifty two to three. In the chips and science hack

650
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: one point two trillion, I think five hundred and fifty

651
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: billion more that new in the infrastructure, I mean the

652
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 1: punchline aside of Trump, I mean literally three hundred weeks

653
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: of infrastructure bloviation, and the Biden administration delivered seemed to

654
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: me an industrial policy that was worker centered to begin

655
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: to substantively address these trend lines and address these headlines

656
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: of today. Do you agree with that? And I'm not

657
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: looking you as as a former ambassador of the administration,

658
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: it's difficult to know. I'm not looking to get it

659
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 1: create any wedges, but it seemed to me a pretty

660
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: robust response to the concerns around the working class, to

661
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: the concerns around what's happening in the heartland. By the way,

662
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: the heartland includes California, which again the largest manufacturing state.

663
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: That is more hunting jobs, more fishing jobs, and more

664
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: forestry jobs, not just ag jobs than any other state.

665
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 2: So I would say to you, look, it started dealing

666
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 2: with the fact that both of the industrial policy and

667
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 2: key sectors of the economy that were going to produce

668
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 2: both jobs and economic independence. We started to make investments

669
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 2: in America making up for we just the other question,

670
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 2: which is things that we didn't invest in, and we

671
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 2: allowed the the freedom of the market to take place,

672
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: and it affected both our competitiveness and most importantly, the

673
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 2: American people and their confidence in America because we lost

674
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 2: face with them. I do think there's you know, it

675
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: was robust, but what was one of the principal things

676
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: that undermined the president was inflation. And that was an

677
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: outgrowth of the robustness of the first Act, which is

678
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:45,959
Speaker 2: and how big it was and you were.

679
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: Which I neglected to reference. I referenced three of.

680
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 2: The helpline point was the infrastructure.

681
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 1: And not exclusively that, I mean it was partially. I mean,

682
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: to be fair, you had international.

683
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 2: Out of COVID, there's a lot coming out.

684
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: Of COVID, supply chains, the WORL in Ukraine issues, and

685
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: obviously international inflation that impacted the globe. But yes, partially

686
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 1: impacted America more than.

687
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 2: The first bill. Everybody was, oh, it's big and bold,

688
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 2: and look I can say this, and a lot of

689
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 2: it was we were going to show president you know

690
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: about the competitiveness. We were going to show President Obama

691
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 2: the right way to do this.

692
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 1: You think, meaning that Obama's bill wasn't big enough, your bill,

693
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: and we needed to show we could go bolder and bigger.

694
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 2: I always now you're going to deal with talk about

695
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: self awareness. Nobody ever offered an amendment to make it bigger.

696
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 2: Everybody that's rewriting history, you know, some of us were there.

697
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 2: Nobody for a trillion dollars. It wasn't going to pass. Okay,

698
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 2: so nobody offered it. Everybody that's walking around all it

699
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: was too small, too timid. Okay, where was your amendment?

700
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:56,439
Speaker 2: Call you for a trillion dollars? Okay, nobody did. Number two.

701
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 2: It was big. It was bold because we were having

702
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: a problem. Part of it was all there was a

703
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 2: political piece to this, and we should just be honest.

704
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: It was to show that, oh, we were different than

705
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 2: the timidness, which I don't think was timid. President Obama

706
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 2: dealt with on the heels of having this dealt with

707
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 2: TARP of what President Bush passed and signed, implementing that,

708
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: but also the Recovery Act, that was what the political

709
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,919
Speaker 2: system could bear. Now, the inflation that kicks off under

710
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 2: President Biden is one of the pieces, not the only,

711
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: but is a result that big and bold came with

712
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: a price, not just economic, it came with a political price,

713
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 2: because inflation kicked off and it was known at the

714
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:41,959
Speaker 2: time it would warned. But there was something considerations done

715
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 2: where politics was to be honest, more valuable. And I

716
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 2: think sometimes also if I could in the rewrite less

717
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 2: is more, it became a giant appropriation bill rather than

718
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,439
Speaker 2: a strategically thought through and you can that criticism also

719
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 2: applies to certain things we did under President Obama's first bill,

720
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 2: also the recovery bill, which is became too big of

721
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 2: an funding bill rather than a strategic approach to either

722
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 2: the recession and or post COVID A present bien so.

723
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: Rom is your point then that it then clouded over

724
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 1: some of the accomplishments on those other bills. There's sort

725
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: of three legged stool that I was arguing, we're not

726
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: insignificant the chips and Science ACKed and the Infrastructure bill,

727
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: and in making those investments intentionally in the IRA that

728
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: have benefited disproportionately rural and read parts of this country.

729
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 2: There's no look, look, you got three or four. In

730
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 2: my view, there's telling people that the economy is great

731
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: when they're feeling stressed as if you're like tone deaf.

732
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 2: That's wrong.

733
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 1: Two, that's on the politics.

734
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,919
Speaker 2: Okay. Ye Second, people ready breaking news, people like order

735
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 2: versus disorder. You're talking to the guy in clinton White

736
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 2: House who put together Operation Gatekeeper on San Diego and

737
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 2: the border looked totally out of control. I think American

738
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: people are actually more receptive on immigration, but they don't

739
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 2: like the law being broken and being so flavingly disregarded.

740
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 2: And we allowed it to happen. And then Third our party,

741
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 2: and I've spoken about this, got into a cultural cul

742
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 2: de sact. You know, Look, we weren't good on the

743
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 2: kitchen table issues. We weren't really good in the family room.

744
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 2: The only room we really did well in the house

745
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: was a bathroom. And I don't know if you know this, Governor,

746
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 2: but the bathroom is the smallest room in the house,

747
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: and that's the only place we were good. Okay. And

748
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: my view is we not only looked like we were

749
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 2: on the cultural purphery, we looked like that's what was

750
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 2: front and center for us. And I'm sorry, I've written

751
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: about this, I've talked about it. Stop the bathroom in

752
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 2: the locker room. It's not more important than the classroom

753
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 2: and the kitchen table. A lot of things get discussed

754
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 2: at that kitchen table. What's going on in the neighborhood,

755
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 2: who are the kids hanging with? How does technology affect

756
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 2: our children's isolation. They're in the basement. I can't get

757
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: them off off the telephone. There's a whole host of

758
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: issues that happened that happened in your kitchen table. They

759
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 2: happened at my kidchen table, and they go from the

760
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 2: kitchen table to the family room to night when you

761
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 2: have five minutes to talk to your loved one and

762
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,240
Speaker 2: your partner about what we're going to do. So we

763
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 2: actually got totally sidetracked into a discussion. Now, as a party,

764
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 2: we're an accepting party, but we started becoming advocates. And

765
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 2: I'm sorry when two thirds of our kids can't read

766
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 2: at grade level the worst than thirty years, two curiods

767
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 2: that our kids can't do math at the worst level

768
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 2: in thirty years, that's the priority. You make it for

769
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: your own children, and we didn't make it for the

770
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 2: American children. And this really like, Yes, I was in Japan,

771
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: I couldn't have been a happier, but I was like

772
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: I was watching America from did I say, what do

773
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 2: you guys? And we lost our mind. This is a

774
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 2: p The Democratic Party is about the American dream, owning

775
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 2: a home, save you for your retirement, save you for

776
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 2: your kids' education, and making sure that grandma wasn't one

777
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: mills away from the chapter eleven and moving into the

778
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: house you wanted her blocks away. Okay, And the American

779
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 2: dream is not accessible, it's not affordable. That's the That

780
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 2: is what should motivate us as Democrats to speak to

781
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 2: now the opportunity for us, if I can go on

782
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 2: in a tirade here, By the.

783
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: Way, you sound very much like I have lately. So

784
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: keep going wrong, keep going.

785
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: Well, the Democratic Party. Look between now in twenty twenty six,

786
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 2: this is gonna be a referendum on Donald Trump, and

787
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: there's gonna be a lot of energy. It's not gonna

788
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 2: be about us. It's gonna be about him.

789
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: But you're not arguing for that. You're arguing for something

790
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: bolder and bigger, beyond me.

791
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,240
Speaker 2: Here's what I'm arguing because with the day twenty twenty

792
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:54,919
Speaker 2: six is over.

793
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, got to turn that page.

794
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 2: But and if you want the American people to give

795
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 2: you the keys to the car, you got to know

796
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 2: how to drive. Yep, you got to know that you

797
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: have more. You have a Google map to the American

798
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 2: dream that you know how to share that car, not

799
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 2: get it off onto the shoulder of the road, and

800
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 2: you know how to take it. So not just new

801
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 2: some children and the emmanual children can one day own

802
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 2: a home. You have kids graduating college with thirty five

803
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: thousand dollars in debt and they're living in the basement

804
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 2: till the thirty five. This is not how you and

805
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: I grew up. Then you got grandma living upstairs and

806
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,240
Speaker 2: where the kids used to live because she can't afford

807
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 2: to live on Social Security and Medicare, and she's skipping

808
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 2: medication and you're skipping doctor visits. This is insane. And

809
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 2: if we're gonna get the keys to the car between

810
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six and twenty twenty eight, we got to

811
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 2: tell people you're not going to get the shaft anymore.

812
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 2: And I may not solve this problem, and I may

813
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 2: have my tongue hanging out of my mouth at the

814
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 2: end like a dog racer, but I am going to

815
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 2: work every day to make sure that more and more

816
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 2: American children and more American families have access to that dream,

817
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 2: and it has been and the reason our politics are

818
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 2: where they are and the reason we have Donald Trump

819
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 2: is that trust between the American people, the American dream,

820
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 2: and those of us who are stewards of it has

821
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: been broken, and we need to repair it. And that's

822
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: our number one goal.

823
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate everything you said, and I also appreciated

824
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: your courage of saying which I was right there with

825
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: you calling our party brand, which was not very well received,

826
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: at least with my inbox. When I called our party

827
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 1: brand a toxic, I mean when you're twenty seven percent

828
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: and that you know we have a high water market

829
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,879
Speaker 1: twenty nine percent on a CNN poll, only to see

830
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,439
Speaker 1: twenty seven percent a few days later at NBC poll.

831
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 1: Where people don't trust us, they don't think we're we

832
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: have their backs on issues that are core to them,

833
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: which are these kitchen table issues.

834
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 2: It is both the kitchen table issue and the family issues.

835
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: And you mean family brought broadly defined in what in

836
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: what contexts done when we.

837
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 2: Say, let me say a couple of things. Now, I'm

838
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 2: a product my experiences. President Clinton is infamous in the

839
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 2: ninety two election for the economy stupid, But there were

840
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 2: a set of issues coming on the heels of both

841
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 2: Jimmy Carter, Walter Mondale and then Dacaucus where he talked

842
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 2: about ending welfare as we know it, a shorthand in

843
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: your state. Coming out of the Rodney King Sister Soldier moment,

844
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: that he was centered on a set of values that

845
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 2: all of us collectively had a consensus around, so that

846
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 2: the economic message about the middle class first could be heard.

847
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,839
Speaker 2: And for President Obama it became deal with Father Wright,

848
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:43,760
Speaker 2: his pastor who's made some very ugly comments. For President Kennedy,

849
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: it was going to Texas to give a speech and

850
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 2: say I'll be a president who's Catholic, but not a

851
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 2: Catholic president. There were threshold issues that were important on

852
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 2: the cultural front that allowed the rest of what we

853
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 2: had to say a permission slip to get hurt. That's

854
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 2: a political analysis. And I would say to you the

855
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 2: kitchen cable and the family room are of one piece,

856
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: and we got stuck as a party in the bathroom,

857
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: which I say jokingly but as serious it is the

858
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 2: smallest room in the house, and we're not going to

859
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 2: be heard on a set of issues. And you say

860
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 2: twenty seven percent. We earned that twenty seven percent the

861
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 2: old fashioned way. We turned our back on the American

862
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 2: people and they had they had hope in us, they

863
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 2: put their confidence in us, and we walked away from

864
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 2: that contract with them.

865
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,760
Speaker 1: Ron, what you just said, I think is really powerful

866
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 1: and important, and because in order for people to hear

867
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: the other message, they had to hear that what you

868
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: I mean, they had to hear that we were connected

869
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 1: on some of those other issues, meaning it's not just

870
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: an economic message. I mean, that was I think Biden's frustration.

871
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 1: He was talking about Bill back better. He was talking

872
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: about an ECONO message. He was talking about his worker

873
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: centered industrial policy. But it wasn't necessarily breaking through because

874
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: we couldn't break out, as you point, of the bathroom debates,

875
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: the pronoun debates, and all these other debates.

876
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 2: I've said this before, so I'll say it here in

877
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 2: his Last State of the Union, if my theory of

878
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,280
Speaker 2: the case is right. In the Last State of the Union,

879
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 2: when he was not reading off script, he said, when

880
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 2: he went off script, he said illegal immigrants people. All

881
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 2: of Washington's immigration groups started yelling at the white number

882
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 2: and they went to undocumented. Now, to me, that was

883
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:39,280
Speaker 2: the slowest pitch over the center plate.

884
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 1: He just said, look, no one's illegal. I remember it.

885
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: I remember it well, right, yeah.

886
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:52,240
Speaker 2: And he switched to the voices on K Street of Washington.

887
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 2: And to me, that was the easiest way of showing,

888
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: as I showed Kennedy, Clinton and Obama head different footprints

889
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: on this area of what I call a cultural landscape,

890
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 2: where he could have said, look, uh h, I said

891
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 2: what I said. I'm sticking by what I said. If

892
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 2: you don't like it, you can use whatever term you want.

893
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 2: And this is I find ironic from a bunch of

894
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,760
Speaker 2: people yelling at you when you say, don't say defund

895
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 2: the police. They say it doesn't mean what it says. Well,

896
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,399
Speaker 2: don't use English language. Set okay. If it doesn't mean,

897
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 2: I use English ariage convey what I mean, not what

898
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 2: I don't mean. So to me, we put ourselves in

899
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 2: a position where we're not seen or heard by the

900
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 2: American people because we disappointed them.

901
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: So you're and I look, I appreciate the specific example

902
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: as it relates to Biden in that particular moment, as

903
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: relates to legal immigration versus undocumented, but broadly, how do

904
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: you sort of reflect there's a lot of dialectic within

905
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 1: the party or not within the party, within punditry. More

906
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 1: broadly than that, it's the weaponization of grievance the other

907
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 1: side so much more effective, making CRT D I E S,

908
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: G I R S, you know, DOJ anything with three

909
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: letters the issue of the day, and that they're able

910
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: to surround sound Sinclair Media, not just Fox Newsmax, not

911
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 1: just One American News, not just the Bogga sphere and

912
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 1: the manisphere, but their ability to shape shift and constantly

913
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: we're on the defensive in that respect, and they color

914
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: things in and even if we're trying to run away

915
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: from those issues, we don't even want to adult indulge

916
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: in those issues. We have an almost impossible time in

917
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 1: that media landscape of breaking out and getting back on

918
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: our message. How do you reflect on that? Is that

919
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,800
Speaker 1: a component part or is it still we're not victims

920
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: and we need to take more accountability.

921
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 2: Look, they do have a very powerful ecosystem, but you know,

922
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 2: even with the ecosystem, they lost Wisconsin. They lost they

923
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 2: lost over every special lection. So I mean one of

924
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 2: the things that you and I both know this, don't

925
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 2: over don't overinflate your opponent's power, and don't underestimate it either.

926
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 2: That have a powerful ecosystem? Yes do we sometimes? Are

927
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 2: we our worst marketers? Latin x one hundred thousand? You know,

928
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 2: defund the police? I can give you chapter in versu

929
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 2: of terminology. We you know, I'm not. I actually appreciate

930
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 2: the spirit. Okay, So don't get me. I appreciate the

931
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:23,359
Speaker 2: spirit of those that are going around on protest calling oligarchs.

932
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 2: You're all over California. How many people in your you've

933
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 2: been to lieutenant governor, governor? How many times did somebody

934
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,879
Speaker 2: come up to use that oligarch rather than or big, big,

935
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,399
Speaker 2: big fat special interests? Okay? Why don't we use terms that.

936
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 1: People diners understand?

937
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 2: Okay, well I didn't know we were applying for our

938
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 2: ten year position. Okay, give me a break. So are

939
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 2: we our worst? Are we our worst victims? Yes? Do

940
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 2: they have a more sophisticated ecosystem? Yes? Do people like

941
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 2: his tariffs? No? Did we win in Wisconsin? Yes? Did

942
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 2: they lose a Scambia county where Pensacola is and it's

943
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: fourteen percent veterans, double the national average. The first time

944
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 2: since five decades a Democrat won that in a national election.

945
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 2: Trump wanted by nineteen, we wanted by three. Yeah, So

946
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 2: I don't overestimate the power of it. I think I

947
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 2: like to have that ecosystem, and I like to be

948
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 2: more strategic and more sophisticated about how we talk about

949
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 2: what's cord us. I wouldn't want to be a better

950
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 2: talker about the locker room in the bathroom. I'd rather

951
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 2: be a better talker and have a good ecosystem about

952
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 2: this is what we're going to do to improve readings course,

953
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 2: Here's how we're going to make sure that kids can

954
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,320
Speaker 2: do math at math level. Here's how we're going to

955
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 2: do with the chronic apps and teism rate. So I'd

956
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 2: like to have that ecosystem if I was focused on

957
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,919
Speaker 2: the right things, if I was saying, you know, there's

958
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,720
Speaker 2: not to tout it, but you know, we created universal

959
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 2: pre king in Chicago. Never had it, universal kindergarten never

960
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 2: had it. Free community college for Bee students never had it.

961
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 2: So I like to have the ecosystem that tells that

962
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 2: story and why it's important that two thirds of the

963
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 2: twenty thousand kids that went to college for community college

964
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 2: for free for the first in the family ever went

965
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 2: that passport, that education. That's your visa and your passport

966
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 2: to the future. I think there's other ways you So

967
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 2: I want the ecosystem and I want the way to

968
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 2: talk about what we're doing in a strategically focused way.

969
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 2: Not that makes me feel better about me, but makes

970
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 2: them feel better that I'm actually in their sleeves, rolled

971
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 2: up like a beaten dog. Worker for.

972
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: Rob are you. We'll segue a little bit off that

973
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 1: you you had deep experience with all things tactical in

974
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 1: political particularly not and you've had a remarkable career in

975
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 1: so many remarkable roles, working for three presidents too, in

976
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 1: sort of more lead and established stablished status. What but

977
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 1: the Congressional Committee what you were running that what nineteen

978
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 1: two thousand and six? Right, Yeah, And I bring up

979
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: two thousand and six in this context because after two

980
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: thousand and four, I remember everybody we got slacked. They

981
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: won the popular vote, the electoral vote. Democratic Party was toast.

982
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: Everyone was running saying we got to go to Applebee's

983
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 1: read you know what's wrong with Kansas. This is before

984
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 1: hillbilly elegy, the whole thing. And you know, we're too elite,

985
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: we're two out of touch and then all of a sudden,

986
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: two years later, you successfully went back the House, overwhelming

987
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: someone by Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the House. And in

988
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, you guys went with the biggest

989
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 1: landslide since nineteen sixty four or fifty three percent of

990
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 1: the vote, And all of a sudden, you're on transition

991
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 1: team and chief of staff of some guy named Obama.

992
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 1: Is this two thousand and four all over again? If

993
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: we do it right? Or are we in a deeper,

994
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: darker wilderness at this moment from your perspective?

995
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 2: So on an anecdote. So the day after we win

996
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 2: O six, you'll appreciate this. This is the day of

997
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:03,320
Speaker 2: President Trump. A President Bush rather given that press conference,

998
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:04,280
Speaker 2: said we took a thumping.

999
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1000
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 2: I'm in my uh teat Democratic Congressional campaign community. I

1001
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 2: love this story. Uh. And it's President Bush. And he

1002
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 2: called to say, I want to congratulate you on a

1003
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 2: great rate. You know, the racer ran etcetera, etcetera. And

1004
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 2: I said, uh, I said, uh, mister President, I said

1005
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 2: I want to thank you, and he goes, what do

1006
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 2: you hear? I said, you did We did everything we

1007
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 2: needed to do, and you did everything we wanted you

1008
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 2: to do. That was he wouldn't fire Rumhall. It was

1009
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 2: also that, you know, he goes, you know what, You're

1010
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 2: as big a prick as they see. We started to

1011
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 2: laughing our asses off. I said, here to serve, mister President,

1012
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 2: and we were actually we're very respectful because I you know,

1013
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 2: two years later, as you said, I'm chief of staff, etcetera.

1014
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 2: I think this gets back to what I said to you.

1015
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 2: Between now and two twenty twenty six, it's all about

1016
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 2: Trump and it's a referendum him and the Republicans. But

1017
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 2: we better do the intellectual work right now on that

1018
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 2: window of time between twenty twenty six and twenty twenty

1019
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 2: eight is going to come fast and furious, and we're

1020
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 2: not going to be living off the fumes of Donald Trump.

1021
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 2: We got to be livinged. We're not going to just

1022
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 2: fight Donald Trump. We're going to fight for America. And

1023
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 2: I'm spending my time intellectually. What is that fight for America?

1024
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 1: I love it so rob. So there's a simple question.

1025
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: It's the last question. And I don't want any bullshit

1026
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 1: from politician.

1027
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 2: I don't like this.

1028
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 1: Oh are you or are you not running for president

1029
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 1: of the United States? Rom I want to know right now,

1030
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 1: noneother bs the American people decide what is the answer.

1031
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 2: Here's here's the answer, which is if I think I

1032
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 2: know the answer to that question, which is the question

1033
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 2: I said, which is what is the fight for America?

1034
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 2: And I haven't I have something to contribute to that,

1035
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 2: I'll throw I'll deal with that. But if I don't

1036
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 2: think I have something that over yourself, governor, my governor,

1037
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:57,360
Speaker 2: here are other governors that I think they're doing what

1038
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 2: I would do and enunciating that because being Trump ain't

1039
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 2: gonna get you squat in twenty twenty seven. If I

1040
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 2: have something to say and I've never been shy about

1041
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 2: saying it, and I don't think anybody else is saying it,

1042
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 2: and I thought through my head how to do it,

1043
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 2: I'll deal with that. I got a thought for something

1044
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 2: first that I think the American people need to hear.

1045
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 1: Well, we heard a lot today and I really appreciate it.

1046
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 2: Like the record of show Comnor you were the first

1047
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 2: to swear on this show, not me.

1048
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 1: I don't Bullshit's not even a swear word. Jesus.

1049
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 2: I mean, come on, I love you said, see you

1050
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 2: brother back