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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Will it never end with

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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger. In the last hours, we learned that Brian Coburger,

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Speaker 1: charged in their murders of four beautiful Idaho University students,

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Speaker 1: is now trying to stop the trial, claiming the grand

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Speaker 1: jury indictment is somehow defective, putting the skids on this

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Speaker 1: case going forward while the families all wait for justice.

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Speaker 1: Not only do we learn of the maneuvering techniques of

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Speaker 1: Brian Coberger and his defense team, but now there seems

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Speaker 1: to be unstoppable evidence proving Coburger was there the night

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Speaker 1: of the merged, not just there, but in the bedrooms

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Speaker 1: where these victims were murdered. I'm Nscy Grace, this is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at

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Speaker 1: Fox Station and Serious XM one eleven. First of all,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at crime Online.

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Speaker 2: Coberger's attorney wants the state to provide the full record

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Speaker 2: of the grand jury proceedings, and Taylor says information from

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Speaker 2: the proceedings are necessary to Coburger's defense. The court document states,

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Speaker 2: in part, a grand jury was impaneled at a time

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Speaker 2: when the small community of Moscow, Idaho, had been exposed

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Speaker 2: to six months of intense local, national, and international media coverage.

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Speaker 2: Whether a fair and impartial panel of grand jurors was

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Speaker 2: assembled to mid intense media coverage is a significant question

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Speaker 2: the defense must evaluate. Coberger's legal team is entitled to

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Speaker 2: the transcript of the grand jury, but will there be

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Speaker 2: more information such as people who were subpoena or anything

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Speaker 2: set off the record. Taylor says the move is intended

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Speaker 2: to quote preserve his right to contest the indictment.

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Speaker 1: Quote that's right, legal maneuvering to stop this trial from

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Speaker 1: going forward, just as the investigation seemingly is dang steam.

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Speaker 1: But now we hear more from our friends ak HQ.

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Speaker 3: The document filed this week is called a motion to

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Speaker 3: stay proceedings. Coburger's defense says they've requested the grand jury

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Speaker 3: evidence that led to this indictment, but say they have

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Speaker 3: not received all of it.

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Speaker 4: In other core.

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Speaker 3: Documents, prosecutors say there's a lot of evidence it'll take

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Speaker 3: time to go through, and they are fine extending timelines

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Speaker 3: for both sides to go through the information. The Coburger's

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Speaker 3: defense says they want all proceedings paused until they have

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Speaker 3: everything they can get on the Grand Jury with the

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Speaker 3: ultimate goal to challenge and they hope to overturn the indictment.

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Speaker 3: There is a hearing now set for US June twenty

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Speaker 3: seventh to discuss the timeline extension. So far, there hasn't

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Speaker 3: been any hearing set to discuss the suspension of the indictment.

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Speaker 1: So right now we understand that Brian Coberger's defense team

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Speaker 1: is trying to defeat the grand jury indictment with me

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Speaker 1: and I All Star Pound to make sense of what

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Speaker 1: we know right now. But I can tell you this delay, delay,

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Speaker 1: delay is the defense's best friend for many, many reasons.

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Speaker 1: They are going to try to fight this tooth now

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Speaker 1: and claw every way imaginable, and they're starting with attacking

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Speaker 1: the Grand jury indictment with me and All Star Pound

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Speaker 1: to make sense of what we know right now. First,

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Speaker 1: I'm want to go straight out to renowned lawyer joining

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Speaker 1: me from the Coburger Jurisdiction of Idaho, Tara Malick, partner

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Speaker 1: at Smith and Malick, former state and federal prosecutor.

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Speaker 4: Tara, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: I think what's lost in the sauce a lot of

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Speaker 1: times is that unlike a petit or regular twelve person jury.

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Speaker 1: A grand jury is often called a secret grand jury

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Speaker 1: for a reason. All right, that's simply a charging tool,

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Speaker 1: nothing more. You can put up one witness at a

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Speaker 1: grand jury this except for five minutes, and all the

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Speaker 1: grand jury has to decide is is there a question

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Speaker 1: of fact that should go to a jury.

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Speaker 4: That's really all there is.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you're exactly right.

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Speaker 6: I mean, this grand jury was a secret grand jury

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Speaker 6: that was just looking at whether or not there was

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Speaker 6: enough there to charge Brian Kerberger for these four murders.

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Speaker 6: And they have really one job to do now. The

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Speaker 6: defense wants to, as you said, delay and slow the

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Speaker 6: process down. And one way they can do that is

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Speaker 6: go back to the root of what started this case

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Speaker 6: in the legal process, which is that grand jury indictment.

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Speaker 6: So they're going to take a look at that and

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Speaker 6: start nitpicking and saying, you know, and really looking deeply

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Speaker 6: into who was a part of this grand jury. What

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Speaker 6: was the process by which they got this group of

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Speaker 6: people together to hear the evidence and to bring it

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Speaker 6: forward and forward an indictment.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately, what is it exactly that they are looking for.

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Speaker 1: Tara Mallek is joining a high profile lawyer out of

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Speaker 1: Idaho and you know, by the end of the trial,

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Speaker 1: it's exhausting, Tara, and I'm sure you've been through it many,

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Speaker 1: many times, because every single thing is challenged, and the

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Speaker 1: defense has the right to do that under the Constitution.

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Speaker 1: If there's an ID, if there's an eyewitness ID, that

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Speaker 1: ID is challenged. If a photo array, like a photographic

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Speaker 1: lineup is showed to a witness, that's challenged. Any statement

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Speaker 1: the defendant made, that's challenge the judge. Normally they try

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Speaker 1: to throw the judge off the case. At least once

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Speaker 1: or twice. They try to throw the prosecutor off the case.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe I ever had a single murder case

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Speaker 1: where the defense didn't try to throw me off the

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Speaker 1: case for whatever reason. And here we see a grand

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Speaker 1: jury challenge to put the skids on this case going forward.

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Speaker 1: What is it they hope to find, Tara? What are

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Speaker 1: they looking for? What's your best guess?

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Speaker 6: You know, I think one of our main concerns in

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Speaker 6: this case is Moscow, Idaho, where the murder has occurred,

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Speaker 6: is a very small community. It's a close knit community.

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Speaker 6: It's you know, in the northern part of Idaho. It's

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Speaker 6: a college town. It's set you know, a little bit

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Speaker 6: further away from some of the more major cities in

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Speaker 6: the state. And I think what they're looking for here

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Speaker 6: is the process by which the state went about gathering

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Speaker 6: people for and to sit on this grand jury.

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Speaker 1: Let me just digest what you're saying, so not necessarily

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Speaker 1: challenging the evidence that was put in front of the

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Speaker 1: grand jury, but challenging how the grand jury was selected.

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Speaker 4: It's usually thirty to forty ish people.

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Speaker 1: In Atlanta, in inner city Atlanta, the grand jury would meet.

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Speaker 1: They are about forty people in the grand jury. They

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Speaker 1: were taken from voter registration records, just blindly, much the

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Speaker 1: same way that juries are picked. I've been called a

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Speaker 1: grand jury and regular juries. For some reason, I was

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Speaker 1: always struck. I don't know why, but it can be

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Speaker 1: anybody that votes in that area. In New York, in Manhattan,

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Speaker 1: people were taken off the real estate tax records. If

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Speaker 1: you are living there and you own a place, you're

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Speaker 1: headed to jury duty. It can be a number of things.

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Speaker 1: But how are they selected. In Idaho, how is the

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Speaker 1: grand jury typically selected?

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Speaker 6: Well, the same way You're going to have a list

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Speaker 6: of people that are gathered from the voter registration that

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Speaker 6: are put on just like any other kind of jury roster.

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Speaker 4: How about driver's license? I forgot that one.

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Speaker 1: They can also pick it from people driver's license because

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Speaker 1: you have to puture dress on your driver's license, which

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Speaker 1: tells you the county, and this is Lata County, So

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Speaker 1: maybe they pick it through driver's license.

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Speaker 4: What about that?

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Speaker 6: Yes, I mean yes, absolutely, the issue is going to

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Speaker 6: be for this defense attorney and this defense team. I

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Speaker 6: should say not just attorney is fine. You get these

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Speaker 6: people as perspective grandeurs, But how are you needing out

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Speaker 6: the people and making sure that they're fair and unbiased

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Speaker 6: and impartial if you're pulling them. You know, from this

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Speaker 6: very small community on a case that has received a

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Speaker 6: lot of publicity, high profile murder case, everyone's hearn about it.

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Speaker 6: You know, it's likely that not only have they heard

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Speaker 6: about it, that they have some sort of connection to it.

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Speaker 6: They know someone who knows someone who is in the area.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it is really a small community here.

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Speaker 1: Well. And also, Tara, now I'm learning that even though

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Speaker 1: we had about forty people on a grand jury in

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Speaker 1: inner city Atlanta, is it true a grand jury in

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Speaker 1: Idaho is made up of sixteen or so yes, So

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Speaker 1: you know you have that issue in every trial. Do

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Speaker 1: you know anybody that's one of these witnesses and you

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Speaker 1: read out the witness list or any of you connected

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Speaker 1: to the prosecutor or the defense, or any of the

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Speaker 1: cops or anybody on the case, and invariably there's always

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Speaker 1: going to be somebody goes, oh, yeah, that's my second cousin.

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Speaker 1: When did July see them at high school graduation? You

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Speaker 1: get things like that, But that does not mean that

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Speaker 1: that grand juror cannot be fair and impartial, which is

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Speaker 1: really the issue. So right now, this is just the

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Speaker 1: beginning of many, many attacks on the state's case, and

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Speaker 1: it is going to get nasty, down and dirty by

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Speaker 1: the time this thing is over. This is just a

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Speaker 1: tiny preview of what's going to happen, the attack on

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Speaker 1: the grand jury indictment, which means the state would have

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Speaker 1: to start all over again. We're learning about this attack

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Speaker 1: on the grand jury as bombshell evidence comes forward literally

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Speaker 1: in the last three or four hours. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to our friensic KTVB court.

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Speaker 7: Documents from the Laytak County Prosecutor's office. Just release, say,

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Speaker 7: DNA from a swab of Brian Coberger's cheek is a

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Speaker 7: statistical match to DNA found on a knife sheath left

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Speaker 7: behind at the crime scene. That knife sheath, according to

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Speaker 7: the new documents and previously known information, was found next

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Speaker 7: to the bodies of Kayleigan Zalvez and Madison Mogan, who

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Speaker 7: were sleeping in the same bed the night they were killed.

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Speaker 7: Prosecutors say the DNA is five point three seven octillion

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Speaker 7: times more likely to be Brian Coberger's than anybody else.

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Speaker 1: Okay, wait just a minute, five point three seven octillion

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Speaker 1: times more likely? What take Listen to our forensiccrime online

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 8: One of the bombshell pieces of evidence is the fact

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Speaker 8: that Brian Coberger's DNA is a quote statistical match to

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Speaker 8: DNA found on a knife sheath at the scene. Investigators

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Speaker 8: found the kbar knife sheath face down and partially under

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Speaker 8: both Madison's body and the comforter on the bed. A

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Speaker 8: probable cause affidavit, unsealed in January, stated that the DNA

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Speaker 8: found had been matched to Coburger's father, the elder. Coburger's

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Speaker 8: DNA was recovered from trash outside the family home. A

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Speaker 8: short tandem repeat analysis was performed to develop a profile.

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Speaker 8: That profile was compared against material from Coburger's cheek swab.

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Speaker 8: The result of the comparison is a statistical match, meaning

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Speaker 8: the profile is at least five point thirty seven octillion

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Speaker 8: times more likely to be from Coburger rather than an

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Speaker 8: unrelated random person. The prosecutors have argued for sealing information

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Speaker 8: related to the use of investigative genetic genealogy. Court document

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Speaker 8: state that is needed to protect from disclosure. Quote the

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Speaker 8: names and personal information of the hundreds of innocent relatives

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Speaker 8: on the family tree, the names of the publicly available

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Speaker 8: genetic genealogy services used in certain other information.

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Speaker 1: Three things stand out to me from what we just

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Speaker 1: heard from our friends at crimeonline dot com. Number one,

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Speaker 1: the insane statistic of one out of five point thirty

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Speaker 1: seven octillion likelihood that this is not Brian Coberger's DNA.

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Speaker 4: We had to actually write that out because.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's one zero in the number ten two

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Speaker 1: zeros in one hundred, three zeros in one thousand, there

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Speaker 1: are twenty seven zeros five point three seven auctillion, All right,

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Speaker 1: that that insane number. Number Two, the location of the knife.

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Speaker 1: Did you hear what was written in the court documents?

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Speaker 1: The knife sheath found partially under Maddie's body, and the

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Speaker 1: comforter on the bed. Many people have wondered, how in

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Speaker 1: the h double l did this guy leave behind the

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Speaker 1: knife sheath, not the knife, the knife sheath is see

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Speaker 1: that much of an idiot, because we know he's not

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Speaker 1: an idiot, he's highly intelligent. Now we're learning it was

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Speaker 1: partially hidden. Mattie must have turned over, must have moved.

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Speaker 1: The knife sheath was left partially under her body, and

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Speaker 1: the comforter and the third thing that jumps out at me.

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Speaker 1: The prosecutors are arguing to seal the information of the

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Speaker 1: so called DNA family tree to protect relatives and distant

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Speaker 1: relatives of Brian Koberger. Please join us now on Fox

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Speaker 1: Nation for a brand new investigation, Parallels of Evil the

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Speaker 1: Bundy and Idaho killings. In this gripping special investigation, we

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Speaker 1: Breathe Thegether, an incredible panel of guests who analyze disturbing

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Speaker 1: similarities of evil between these horrible crimes. We speak with

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Speaker 1: two female Ted Bundy survivors, Karen Pryor and Cheryl Thomas,

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Speaker 1: who described their life before and after they were victims

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Speaker 1: of Ted Bundy. We also speak with the renowned private

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Speaker 1: investigator Bill Warner, who worked the cases, and Ted Bundy's

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Speaker 1: defense attorney, John Henry Brown. We traveled to Moscow, Idaho

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Speaker 1: to speak with Washington State University students and interview neighbors

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Speaker 1: of Brian Coburger. One neighbor shares exclusive insights about the

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Speaker 1: suspect in the Idaho killings, Brian Coburger. Don't miss Parallels

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Speaker 1: of Evil the Bundy and Idahoe Killings, streaming now exclusively

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Speaker 1: on Fox Nation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grease. Straight out

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Speaker 1: to doctor Michelle Dupree, forensic pathologist, medical examiner, and detective

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Speaker 1: and author literally wrote the book Homicide Investigation Field Guide,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Dupre, Thank you for being with us, doctor Dupree.

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Speaker 4: Are you always.

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Speaker 1: Amazed at idiots that seeming idiots that commit these crimes

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Speaker 1: to leave behind the knive sheet? And I got to

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Speaker 1: tell you when we went to Moscow and drove that

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Speaker 1: route from the murder scene, this circuitous long route that

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Speaker 1: could have taken him nine minutes to it make to

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Speaker 1: his apartment if you had gone the normal way. But

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Speaker 1: driving you all these back roads, doctor Dupree, it was

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Speaker 1: so dark, no street lights, nothing if a semi an

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Speaker 1: eighteen wheeler met me coming the other way. I practically

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Speaker 1: had to stop the car at night, it was that dark.

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Speaker 9: Can you imagine Doctor dupre as he's done this long,

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Speaker 9: securitiest route leaving the crime scene, he goes, holy crap,

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Speaker 9: where's the knife sheet?

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Speaker 1: I love thinking about that, but he left it under

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Speaker 1: the body.

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Speaker 10: I love it when they're dumb. I absolutely love it

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Speaker 10: when they're dumb. This is priceless, but.

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Speaker 4: It's not rare, doctor Dupree.

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Speaker 1: You've seen similar circumstances many many times.

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Speaker 10: Absolutely, Nancy. They always mess up some way or another

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Speaker 10: and you think, and you're right, they're not dumb, and

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Speaker 10: he's not dumb. But this was a very grave era.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I wonder when it hit him joining me.

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Speaker 1: Also Chris mcdonah, Guys, you know Chris mcdona, director at

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Speaker 1: the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective as investigated over

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Speaker 1: three hundred homicides alone, and host of a YouTube channel.

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Speaker 1: This is where I found him, called the interview room.

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Speaker 1: Chris mcdunnet. Don't you just love I even love it

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Speaker 1: when they're super smart, Like they're always the smartest guy

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Speaker 1: in the room and they do something so stupid of course,

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Speaker 1: we don't use the S word at our home stupid,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to use it for Brian Kiberger leaving

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Speaker 1: the knife sheet behind. If we didn't have that knife sheet,

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Speaker 1: this case would be very weak.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, you know, it's remember the old movie line, so

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Speaker 11: I have a chance, Nancy. It's with when you take

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Speaker 11: those numbers and you look at that that's matched that

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Speaker 11: now infamous nice sheet, you have to think, Okay, what's

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Speaker 11: going through this guy's mind during the commission of this

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Speaker 11: horrific act here? And I think we all know that

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Speaker 11: he is so intent or his intensity that during the

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Speaker 11: stabbing of these victims that this knife sheet becomes irrelevant

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Speaker 11: to him at that moment. And then you you are

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Speaker 11: one hundred percent right, he has an aha moment at

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Speaker 11: the end of this thing, probably in that car, like

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Speaker 11: you're talking about, where he's got to be thinking, holy crap,

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Speaker 11: where is my knife sheheet?

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Speaker 4: I wonder when it hit him?

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Speaker 11: Yeah, exactly, And he's probably got to be thinking or

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Speaker 11: he's probably thinking also at the time, you know, I

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Speaker 11: got to go back there. Oh yes, maybe that's why

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Speaker 11: you know there's indication that he did come back you

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Speaker 11: know that morning.

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Speaker 4: I know for sure.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't know this for sure, but he got

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Speaker 1: rid of the knife, and I wonder if he had

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Speaker 1: not already planned at Chris McDonald, because this guy plotted

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Speaker 1: this out very carefully, a long time in advance. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I know that he had in his mind where he

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Speaker 1: was going to get rid of the knife. And I

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Speaker 1: wonder less, because we passed lakes, did you, Jackie, didn't

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Speaker 1: we talk about, oh, there's a lake out here, and

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Speaker 1: this is this bridge and that bridge.

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Speaker 4: When we were doing that long drive that night, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, it was so dark, Chris, you could practically not

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Speaker 1: see if it was water out there or the sky

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Speaker 1: blended in with the ground just pitch black. But I

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Speaker 1: guarantee you he had a certain place that he was

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Speaker 1: going to get rid of that knife, whether he threw

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Speaker 1: it into a body of water or buried it or what.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if when he got to that location to

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Speaker 1: throw the knife into the water or wherever he disposed

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Speaker 1: of it, that's when he realized he didn't have the sheet.

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Speaker 4: Can you just even imagine that?

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Speaker 11: Yeah, and then think through that right even further, Nancy,

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Speaker 11: where if he does now have that thought process, it

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Speaker 11: must have been one of these moments for him to

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Speaker 11: where he is so methodical that he you realized this

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Speaker 11: was the biggest mistake that could ever be made, which

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Speaker 11: destroyed his future and relationship to doing other crimes like this.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, that's a good point. So joining me right now.

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Speaker 1: Not only do we have a renowned DNA expert, Toby Wilson,

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Speaker 1: we also have a forensic psychologist who performs risk assessments

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Speaker 1: on violent offenders and is the author of Serial Killers.

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Speaker 1: One hundred and one questions true crime fans asked as

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Speaker 1: doctor Joni Johnston, Doctor Joni, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine at that moment when he

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Speaker 1: realized he had left that knife sheath behind.

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Speaker 12: I cannot imagine what it was like to experience that.

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Speaker 12: And also, this is somebody who's obviously in a doctoral

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Speaker 12: program of criminal justice.

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Speaker 4: He knows what that.

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Speaker 12: Means, He understands DNA, he knows what that means. And

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Speaker 12: so this is somebody who isn't just like, oh crap,

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Speaker 12: you know this happened, and so you know, they're going

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Speaker 12: to know that somebody used the knife sheef maybe to

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Speaker 12: identify the knife. This is somebody who's like my killing

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Speaker 12: career is over that.

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Speaker 4: Dawning that moment.

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Speaker 1: How does that factor endto your analysis of serial killers?

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Speaker 12: Well, I think, you know, serial killers obviously start out

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Speaker 12: a single killers, and I think that they have this

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Speaker 12: long fantasy life where they're thinking about which turns into

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Speaker 12: plotting and planning a murder. And I think oftentimes when

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Speaker 12: that ball gets rolling, they're not just thinking about this murder,

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Speaker 12: they're thinking about future murders, and they're thinking about, Okay,

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Speaker 12: how can I improve on this murder, what's going to

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Speaker 12: make it more interesting and more exciting? And so, you know,

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Speaker 12: oftentimes there is a sense that I'm the smartest person

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Speaker 12: in the room. I can figure this out. And when

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Speaker 12: you have somebody like Brian Coberger, who, from what we hear,

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Speaker 12: is you know, don't think he's the smartest person in

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Speaker 12: the room.

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Speaker 13: This really does, you.

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Speaker 12: Know, raise some questions about how smart he really is,

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Speaker 12: or at least how savvy he really is, and lets

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Speaker 12: us know that it would surprise me for that reason

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Speaker 12: that if he has committed other or just because he

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Speaker 12: made so many mistakes.

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Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if it's possible at Chris mcdonna, and

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Speaker 1: this is one of Jackie's theories did he realize he

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Speaker 1: left the knife sheath before he left the home, but

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Speaker 1: felt there wasn't time to go back and get it

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Speaker 1: or search for it.

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Speaker 11: You know, that certainly is a possibility, Nancy. But one

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Speaker 11: of the things I think we know about him is

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Speaker 11: that intensity and relationship to how he prepared and as

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Speaker 11: the doctor said about his fantasy here, this fantasy was,

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Speaker 11: you know, now first in his mind, and you know,

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Speaker 11: Doc can go for days on that, but then it

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Speaker 11: becomes reality. He's there and this event is taking place.

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Speaker 11: He's into the intensity of.

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Speaker 4: Committing this crime in a frenzy.

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Speaker 11: In a frenzy, yeah, And so we have to ask

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Speaker 11: ourselves then, does he have this knife in the sheet

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Speaker 11: and he's wearing these gloves, do the gloves come off?

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Speaker 11: And does it become personal? And where even further where

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Speaker 11: he pulls the knife out of the sheet and during

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Speaker 11: the frenzy the sheet drops ures it's something that he's

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Speaker 11: trying to you know stage, you know, the nice sheet.

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Speaker 1: Now, hey, hey, that brought me to another thought, Chris,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that. Doctor Jennie Johnson, forensic psychologist

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Speaker 1: and author of Serial Killers one hundred one questions true

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Speaker 1: crime fans asked doctor Johnny. A lot of people have

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Speaker 1: speculated he meant to leave the sheet. That is total bs. No,

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Speaker 1: he did not mean to leave any evidence behind.

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Speaker 12: Absolutely not. I think there is such a mess that

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Speaker 12: people want to get caught when they're creating, when they're

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Speaker 12: community these kind of murders. They may make dumb mistakes,

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Speaker 12: and there's so looks like you want to get caught.

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Speaker 12: But I do not believe for one minute that this

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Speaker 12: was with planet.

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Speaker 10: I don't think it was planned to leave it either,

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Speaker 10: But I wouldn't be surprised if he was so confident

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Speaker 10: or narcissistic that he probably thought he could talk his

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Speaker 10: way out of it, if it was ever even traced

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Speaker 10: back to him.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Jackie here in the studio is giving me a

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Speaker 1: true life example, and it is true. How many times

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Speaker 1: have you lost the remote? I always lose my cell phone.

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Speaker 4: In the covers or under the.

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Speaker 1: Comforter or the bedspread, and you're digging around to try

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Speaker 1: to find it. He probably didn't see it. It was

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Speaker 1: dark in that room, was partially under Mattie's body and

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Speaker 1: partially under the comforter. That said, I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about Deoxaribo McLeay acid DNA joining me Toby Wolfen, forensic

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Speaker 1: consultant specializing in DNA erroology bloodstain and you can find

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Speaker 1: Toby at no Slow forensic dot com. Toby, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. Can you analyze this number? It's

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Speaker 1: an amazing number, five point three seven Tilly and I

410
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Speaker 1: have always had a hard time putting that in regular

411
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Speaker 1: people talk to a jury, and I would try to

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Speaker 1: say it something like this, that the chance of this

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Speaker 1: not being Brian Koberger's DNA on the murder weapon sheath

414
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Speaker 1: is one out of five point three seven octillion, And

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Speaker 1: I would absolutely go up to a whiteboard and write

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Speaker 1: out every single zero, all twenty seven of them by

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Speaker 1: the time that witness was off the stand. Break it

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Speaker 1: down for me, Toby.

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Speaker 13: Well, it's an extremely big number when you especially when

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Speaker 13: you consider it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now wait a minute, Toby, wait a minute. You're

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Speaker 1: the scientific brains here and I'm expecting a little more

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Speaker 1: than Yeah, that's a big number.

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Speaker 4: So is going.

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Speaker 13: To explain about it versus the population of the world.

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Speaker 13: We're talking about eight billion people in the world, and

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Speaker 13: over time there's never been you know, more than maybe

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Speaker 13: thirteen fourteen billion. I would have it to say eight

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Speaker 13: billion into this number is goes in several thousand times minimum.

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Speaker 13: It's that large a number, so it's an extremely probative number.

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Speaker 13: Prosecutors tend to present it the way you just did that.

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Speaker 13: It's you know, the chances of it being somebody other

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Speaker 13: than him are non existent. The reality is is that

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Speaker 13: we basically presented as here's the probabilities of seeing this

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00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 13: profile a second time.

436
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 4: Okay, wait, did you say that very slowly?

437
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 3: For me?

438
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: We're drinking on the far eygeant with you, Toby, it's

439
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: too much too fast. Say that very slowly. How a

440
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 1: scientist would say it on the stand? What would you say?

441
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 13: Well, basically I would say that the DNA profile obtained

442
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 13: from Brian Kohlberger matches the DNA profile obtained from the

443
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 13: knife sheep, and that the possibility of this being from

444
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 13: him versus a random, unrelated man in the population it's

445
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 13: five point three seven twillion times more likely.

446
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: Okay, so yeah, that's like pea soup to me. I

447
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: heard you, but it's not plain.

448
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 13: It is an extremely confusing explanation for any lay person.

449
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: Okay, is it correct, Toby? Is it correct to say

450
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 1: the chance of that DNA on the murder scene on

451
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: the knife sheath being anybody other than Brian Coberger is

452
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: one in five point three seven octillion.

453
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 4: Is that correct?

454
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 13: It's one way of looking at it.

455
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, I'm glad I did not mislaid all

456
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: those juries.

457
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 4: Okay, because that's what I said.

458
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 13: It's basically saying that it's him. But we don't in

459
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 13: forensic biology ever say that it's absolutely done, because we

460
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 13: know statistically there's always that chance. And granted it's a

461
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 13: ridiculous thought in something with a number like this that

462
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 13: there's another person out there that matches, so we always

463
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 13: take a conservative approach to explaining it. But the end

464
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 13: result is the jury is going to understand his profile

465
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 13: regardless of the numbers are not his profile is a

466
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 13: match to evidence obtained from the scene. These are CODIS

467
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 13: core low side, which means that there are a minimum

468
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 13: of twenty required lo SI to go into codis.

469
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 4: What are you saying, man, what what's a low side?

470
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 11: Okay?

471
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 13: Lo SI? Are the addresses on each fragment.

472
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: Of DNA that we say, Okay, that's what I would

473
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: have to stop you on the stand right there. Of course,

474
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: we would go through this, meaning many many times before

475
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: I put you on the stand to make sure you

476
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: didn't come out with that, because that's so far beyond

477
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: beyond most regular people like myself comprehension. Could you dumb

478
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: me down for me? What are you saying about twenty

479
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: seven Losai?

480
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 13: Okay, there's twenty seven fragments of DNA that you know,

481
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 13: twenty plus that we look at and at each low

482
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 13: side you either have one fragment or two fragments, and

483
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 13: that we con pare those across with the same analysis

484
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 13: to the evidence and to the standards, and either they

485
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 13: match or they don't match.

486
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 4: Can I just say it's a match?

487
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 13: Yeah?

488
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 4: Am I? Okay?

489
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: Okay, good now, Jackie, you just had a great point earlier,

490
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: Toby Wilson, for is it consultant specializing in DNA?

491
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 4: Can I see it again?

492
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: You were talking about the population of the world. Octilian

493
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: is many many times larger than the current world population.

494
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: So this number five point two seven octilian rules out

495
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: anybody else in the world. That's more people than are

496
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: in the world. Toby, Yes, there's more people than have

497
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: ever lived.

498
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 4: That's even better.

499
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: So as I would with a jury would not get

500
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: so deep into it that nobody even understands what we're

501
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: talking about anymore. And I actually think that that was

502
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: anybody can jump in with this, please. Was one of

503
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: the problems that happened with the Top Mom Casey Anthony

504
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: prosecution dealing with the air in the Top Mom's trunk.

505
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: Do you remember that the air samples in her trunk

506
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: actually revealed that a dead body had been in there. Like,

507
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: let's just say, if you cook, what's something that smells

508
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: really good, Jackie? That okay, just say chili. If you're

509
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: cooking chili and then you go over the pot of

510
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: chili and you grab the air in that air, they're

511
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: going to be particles of what you're cooking. That's an

512
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: air sample, right, all right. They've taken them for years

513
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: and years and years in our country to test the

514
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: air quality under the Clean Air Act.

515
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 4: That's what that is.

516
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: But it got so confusing trying to explain it in

517
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: scientific terms that nobody understood.

518
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 4: It got lost in the sauce.

519
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: And I don't want that to happen with this DNA

520
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: of Brian Coberger's.

521
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 13: It really shouldn't get lost, Nancy, because when we when

522
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 13: we when we're testify, we never the prosecutors don't normally

523
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 13: walk you through the entire process and the discussion of

524
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 13: what we're doing and how we're doing it anymore, because

525
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 13: people have become so comfortable and familiar with DNA analysis

526
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 13: through all these ancestry kids and through television and all that. Basically,

527
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 13: you get on the witness stand and you say, well,

528
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 13: I analyze the following samples to get obtained. A DNA

529
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 13: profile profile was attained, and it matched the DNA profile

530
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 13: attained from such and such, and here's the number that's

531
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 13: associated with that.

532
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: Oh man, I would have a field day with that number.

533
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,479
Speaker 1: How many times could I say the likelihood that the

534
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: DNA on that knife sheet is.

535
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 4: Anybody in the world?

536
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: But Brian Coburger is one and five point two seven

537
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: on tillion, and I point out every one of those

538
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: twenty seven zeros. Well, something else is happening. In addition

539
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: to the defense trying to put the skids on the

540
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: entire trial by challenging the grand jury's indictment, claiming that

541
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: somehow there were people that were out to get Brian

542
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: Coberger on the grand jury and the fact that we

543
00:32:54,320 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: get this incredible, almost unfathomable DNA match. We're finding out

544
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: that Brian Coburger is set to announce he had an

545
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: alibi at the time of the murders while he was

546
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: spying on his female colleague with her Wi Fi security

547
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: camp at the time. Guys, take a listen to our

548
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: cut four nine one our friends at crime Online.

549
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: Brian Coberger's attorney is asking a judge for more time

550
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: to decide whether to offer a formal alibi for Coburger

551
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: in this case, and Taylor Coberger's public defender said in

552
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: emotion that the defense team had not had sufficient time

553
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 2: to fully review evidence provided by the prosecution. Thousands of

554
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 2: pages of discovery, thousands of photographs, and hundreds of hours

555
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 2: of recordings have been provided to the defense. Idaho law

556
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: lays out ten days for a criminal defendant to reveal

557
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 2: whether an alibi will be offered. Showing the defendant was

558
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: not at the offense scene when a crime took place,

559
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: a judge can extend that deadline an alibi.

560
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: I always think is dangerous to lock yourself into an

561
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: alibi prior to trial. Gives a state plenty of time

562
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: to go question your alibi witnesses to make sure they're

563
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 1: lying crime stories with Nancy Grace joining me right now

564
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: is a well known body language expert, the author of

565
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: How Did You Take Lie's Fraud? And Identity Theft. You

566
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: can find Tracy Brown at body languagetrainer dot com. Tracy Brown,

567
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. If he

568
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: brings up this alibi, he will have to come into

569
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: court to talk about it or his defense lawyers will.

570
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: And now we see a huge shift and how he

571
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: is appearing in court. Did you see him in the

572
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: past days coming into court now wearing uh designer suit

573
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: and tie, looking straight out of the pages of GQ.

574
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 4: Did you see that, Tracy?

575
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 10: I saw that?

576
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 5: What a different guy walked into court is It's the

577
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 5: perception that the public has of you just based on

578
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 5: what you're wearing. Is is amazing. There's so many studies

579
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 5: on how we're perceived that way. But yeah, I cannot

580
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 5: show up in the orange jumpsuit.

581
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 13: Wow?

582
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 5: What like he was thinking about how he's going to

583
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 5: present himself now. He didn't say a word during the

584
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 5: during the proceedings, but his to the untrained eye, it

585
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 5: didn't look like much happened at all. But I started

586
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 5: looking at Okay, how stress is this guy. Really even

587
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 5: though he's looking he's looking really great. And I started

588
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 5: looking at his blank rate the best I could tell,

589
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 5: because there weren't too many close ups on him, but

590
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 5: I count, and his blink rate was at twenty four,

591
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 5: which also matched the judge's blink rate. Now, our normal

592
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 5: blink rate is between twelve and about eighteen per minute,

593
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 5: and so he's more blinks, need more stress, right, because

594
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 5: here's the thing, we never become aware of our blink rate,

595
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 5: and so it's a very reliable like you can't you

596
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 5: can't think your way out of it, right, It was

597
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 5: a very reliable indicator of stress. The judge said he

598
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 5: was a little bit nervous and a little bit stressed

599
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 5: like himself having to deal with this case. And for

600
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 5: someone who's in such a grave situation, he the coburger's

601
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 5: level of stress was very, very low, just slightly elevated,

602
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 5: which makes it kind of interesting. Now here's the other

603
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 5: thing that he did that he did we've seen from

604
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 5: him before when he was in court in the orange jumpsuit,

605
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 5: is people always ask me, like, what's with this je wow,

606
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 5: Like he keeps crunching his jawn muscle and it's very protrusive.

607
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 5: You can you can see it that says hidden aggression.

608
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 5: So he's trying to tamp down anger and aggression in there.

609
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 5: And it's almost to the point that it's an adapter

610
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 5: or a pacifier, like almost that he's trying to let

611
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 5: off some stress in there, but he's barely stressed it all.

612
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 5: So this is how we see it come out so

613
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 5: pretty interesting. Then here's what he did. He did this

614
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 5: three times. He'd to his team of attorneys, whoever was

615
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 5: around him. He'd look at him and do a really

616
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 5: quick fake smile. And we know it was fake for

617
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 5: a couple of reasons. One is that the smile just stops,

618
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 5: and it doesn't it doesn't say it out right. So

619
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 5: you've got two ways that smile can end. One is

620
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 5: that you stop it meaning you meaning you're thinking about it,

621
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 5: and the other is that it stayed, meaning like the

622
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 5: half life of the chemicals that created that genuine happiness

623
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 5: slowly fade out three to five seconds. So they call

624
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 5: this a pan Am smile, and we see it when

625
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 5: someone has put themselves subservient to someone else, just like

626
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 5: a stewardess would like back in the sixties, like a

627
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 5: pan Am smile when they're serving you a drink. So

628
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 5: we saw him trying to put on a good face,

629
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 5: yet all these signs of stress and anger are leaking

630
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 5: out there. So he's not as calm and cool as

631
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 5: what he's trying to put on in that GQ suit look,

632
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 5: but not definitely to the level that we'd see someone

633
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 5: who's actually concerned about their future.

634
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 13: You know.

635
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: The look that he sported in court was very different.

636
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: Many outlets referred to it as a smirk in the

637
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: courtroom with me high profile lawyer out of the Coburger

638
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: jurisdiction of Idaho, Tara Malik Tara. It brings to mind,

639
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: for instance, the Menindez brothers. The defense lawyer had them

640
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: dressed up like preppy college students in court, which is

641
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: hardly what they look like the night that they murdered

642
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: their mother and father. Or top mom Casey Anthony, how

643
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: she would look so demure in court and then in

644
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: my mind, I don't know that the jury saw this,

645
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: the photos of her in a mini dress and a

646
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: pushup bra on a stripper pole a few weeks before

647
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: while her daughter killing Anthony was quote missing I E murdered.

648
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: What we're seeing in court now is very very different

649
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,720
Speaker 1: than the figure that was described by the surviving roommate

650
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: Dylan Mortenson. A guy menacing demeanor, all dressed in black

651
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: with the bushy eyebrows there at the murder scene the

652
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 1: night of the murders.

653
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 4: Very different appearance. What's happening, Tara.

654
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I think part of the his job

655
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 6: here is going to be rehabbing his image. You know,

656
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 6: we're all very familiar with him in the orange jumpsuit,

657
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 6: kind of the cold stare forward, not showing a lot

658
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 6: of emotion. So you know, Nancy, you know, when you're

659
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 6: presenting a case to jurors in front of a jury,

660
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 6: they're going to be watching his every move from the

661
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 6: minute he walks in that door of the courtroom for

662
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 6: the minute he walks out. Every break, every gesture, his

663
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 6: clothing will be judged. So, you know, the defense has

664
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 6: a really big hill to climb here and to kind

665
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 6: of distance themselves from what, you know, how he's been

666
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 6: portrayed so far in the media and what we're used

667
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 6: to seeing. You know, they're going to clean him up.

668
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 13: They're going to make him look you know, like a

669
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 13: straight laced, you.

670
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 6: Know, law abiding citizens, someone.

671
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 12: Who is a student PhD student, you.

672
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 6: Know, and trying to distance away from this image of

673
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 6: him as you know, this incarcerated alleged murderer instead, so

674
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 6: putting him in a suit is part of that process,

675
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 6: is showing him in a different light.

676
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 5: Now, you know, does it work?

677
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 13: Not really?

678
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 5: I don't think so, but especially in a case like

679
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 5: this with so much publicity.

680
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 6: But you know, they've got to make those efforts as well.

681
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 5: That is part of their job.

682
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: Dave Matt with US Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave.

683
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: A hearing has been set down for the twenty seventh.

684
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: Is that for the challenge on the grand jury indictment

685
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: or is that related to them putting forth an alibi?

686
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: And also we're still waiting for the prosecution to announce

687
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: whether they're going to seek the death penalty.

688
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 14: Actually, Nancy, the hearing this coming up is going to

689
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 14: deal with several of the things you just mentioned. The

690
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 14: judge has yet to rule and said he will rule

691
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 14: in the future on what he's going to grant in

692
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 14: terms of the grand jury. You know, they are argument

693
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 14: has been that defense is claiming that they haven't gotten

694
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 14: everything they were supposed to have gotten from the prosecution.

695
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 14: They need that so that they can craft an alibi,

696
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 14: and without all that documentation, they're not going to come

697
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 14: up with one.

698
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 4: Oh, I love what you just said.

699
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: They're going to try to craft an alibi, create an alibi. Yeah,

700
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: you know what. You're so right about that. So we're

701
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 1: going to be back in court on the twenty seven.

702
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 15: Is that right, Dave Matt That's exactly right. We wait,

703
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 15: I think the alibi you're going this is Tory Wilson.

704
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 15: The alibi I think you're going to see in this

705
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 15: case now is going to be kind of like in

706
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 15: the OJ case, that the evidence was planted and that

707
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 15: he wasn't there unless they find more DNA either on

708
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 15: him that connects into the crime scene or him at

709
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 15: the crime scene other than this knife sheath. The argument's

710
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,760
Speaker 15: going to be for the defense that the real killer

711
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 15: had his knife and left it there, and they're going

712
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 15: to are it's going to be just like the gloves

713
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 15: and the OJ case that they were planning that do

714
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 15: make him look guilty.

715
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: And there's gonna be all sorts of challenges on the

716
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: DNA because it was wrapped underneath one victim's body, and

717
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: the comforter and somehow they may try to use that

718
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: comforter as a transfer of the DNA. How they're going

719
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: to do that, I don't know, but they're going to

720
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 1: try it all. As I told you earlier, this case

721
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 1: will be contested and fought tooth, nail and claw. We

722
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds with one eye on the courtroom.

723
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 4: Goodbye friend,