Speaker 1: Podcast. All right, well I've done my job for the day. Wow,
Speaker 1: if you've even by our standards, that's a that's an intro,
Speaker 1: that's actually thank you. This is, of course it could
Speaker 1: happen here a show about how things aren't going so great,
Speaker 1: kind of falling apart, crumbling a bit, but also maybe
Speaker 1: things could be better. That would be nice. Let's try
Speaker 1: and do that. Today is one of the maybe things
Speaker 1: could be better episodes. And we are talking about the
Speaker 1: ongoing wave of strikes. We had strike Tober last month
Speaker 1: with John Dear strikes and and and strikes uh and
Speaker 1: like what you call it, a couple of different food companies,
Speaker 1: a bunch of strikes um. And today we would like
Speaker 1: to get an update on all the motherfucker's who are
Speaker 1: out there striking for better conditions um and and better
Speaker 1: treatment um and today, for that purpose, we've brought on
Speaker 1: the great Kim Kelly. Kim, you are a journalist who
Speaker 1: focuses a hell of a lot on labor. You've been
Speaker 1: up and down to some of the cold strikes that
Speaker 1: have been going on. You were there for the Amazon
Speaker 1: attempt to form the union in um O Gez. Was
Speaker 1: that Arizona um Alabama, Alabama. UM, and you're writing a
Speaker 1: book on the history of labor um in the United States.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to just kind of turn the floor
Speaker 1: over to you. There's a four, there's okay, there's a floor.
Speaker 1: There's the floor. It is filthy, just as it ends up.
Speaker 1: You know, we're doing our best, aren't we ye weird?
Speaker 1: Yeah you are, we are not I am. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to keep up with all this labor action, this exciting action,
Speaker 1: hot labor action, some hot labor action stories. So as
Speaker 1: you mentioned, we're just kind of coasting off of the
Speaker 1: peak of Striketober, which was such a fun thing to
Speaker 1: kind of see explode in the mainstream consciousness. Like usually,
Speaker 1: abor stories, they are a big deal to the people
Speaker 1: that are involved in them and people in the labor
Speaker 1: world who are watching and like rooting for them. But
Speaker 1: they don't necessarily end up on like, you know, the
Speaker 1: mainstream like that they end up on the TV. They
Speaker 1: don't end up with like fancy old guys talking about
Speaker 1: it on dateline or whatever. But that's something that happened,
Speaker 1: and I think there's been a real shifting consciousness that
Speaker 1: is a company that and of course you know, it's
Speaker 1: like Striketober is fun. There's all these these big strikes
Speaker 1: happening at the same time. But we of course need
Speaker 1: to remember that that didn't happen in a vacuum. There's
Speaker 1: people on strike now who have been on strike since before,
Speaker 1: since before it was cool, right, since much earlier. Like
Speaker 1: shout out to the St. Vincent nurses up in Massachusetts
Speaker 1: and to the coal miners in Brookwood, Alabama, Warrior met
Speaker 1: who have both been on strike for over eight months,
Speaker 1: and they kind of right so literally like they're like
Speaker 1: they're in the middle of their tour drives for their
Speaker 1: children because they've been on strike for so long, and
Speaker 1: they kind of got a little bit left out of
Speaker 1: the conversation around strike tober and and I think that
Speaker 1: just kind of shows that we need to be paying
Speaker 1: attention even when it's not as flashy or new or exciting.
Speaker 1: I mean strikes or was exciting. But you know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot going on, and one of the things I
Speaker 1: think is interesting and important, especially as we head into
Speaker 1: strikes giving, which I guess we're doing. Yeah, strikes giving
Speaker 1: strike Smiths, strike in time, day thank you very I
Speaker 1: guess day forth strike you Lily, Yeah, yeah, it's it
Speaker 1: gets worse Earl really until we get to labor day,
Speaker 1: and by the Striker's Day, that one works pretty well.
Speaker 1: I'm also a fan of striking Time's Day, um strike
Speaker 1: and tized Day. That's cute. Well, that's right, baby, keep
Speaker 1: this going. Yeah, strike strike. There's a missed opportunity there.
Speaker 1: Although that that frightens me, Garrison that the band Ween
Speaker 1: might go on strike, and I don't know, so we do.
Speaker 1: We wouldn't have our we would we would be completely
Speaker 1: out of Ween, our reserves. I Ween aren't going to
Speaker 1: last long if they stop ends. Yeah, there's been a
Speaker 1: tragic shortage of Ween for years now. I don't know
Speaker 1: that we can handle the stripe. I mean, I didn't
Speaker 1: realize you were a nerd, Robert. This is kind of
Speaker 1: throw some things into question. Yeah, yeah, I mean, as
Speaker 1: a heavy metal dirt bag, I'm like contractually obligated to
Speaker 1: say things like that. But as I was pontificating a
Speaker 1: minute ago, right, So, as we go into strikes giving,
Speaker 1: there are still more big strikes on the horizon and
Speaker 1: potential big strikes in the horizon. But part of the
Speaker 1: story that I think is also very energizing and important
Speaker 1: is the organizing that's happening in the new unions that
Speaker 1: are hopefully gonna end up being formed, not necessarily as
Speaker 1: a result of this wave of attention, but they're kind
Speaker 1: of caught up in the tide. I mean, we look
Speaker 1: at the Starbucks workers in Buffalo who have scared the
Speaker 1: ship out of their doors to the point where they're
Speaker 1: flying executives in to follow them around the store and
Speaker 1: be like, please don't vote for reunion. We need all
Speaker 1: of our billions of dollars we can't share. Or you know,
Speaker 1: even workers at wire Cutter who are threatening to strike
Speaker 1: on Black Friday and their whole thing is telling people
Speaker 1: what's stuff to buy, you know, and McDonald's workers, and
Speaker 1: I think ten different these are ten different cities of
Speaker 1: ten different states, ten different locations just went out on
Speaker 1: like a one day strike over sexual harassment in the workplace.
Speaker 1: Kroger workers are taking a strike authorization vote in Texas.
Speaker 1: We have multiple Amazon organizing attempts happening in Staten Island,
Speaker 1: and a rerun of the election coming up in Bestmalabama.
Speaker 1: And there's just so much happening that, you know, I
Speaker 1: hope that the novelty idea of the strikes, tolder strikes
Speaker 1: giving I hope like that was fun. But I hope
Speaker 1: now that people are paying attention, that they stay interested
Speaker 1: and realize that, you know, labor stories. Maybe it's not
Speaker 1: necessarily always like a big strike or like a cool
Speaker 1: picket line to look at, but there's a lot going on,
Speaker 1: Like every story is a work story, every story is
Speaker 1: a labor story, and people seem like they're finally catching
Speaker 1: on the fact that you know, we're all workers and wow,
Speaker 1: cool things happen when we come together. Yeah. I hope
Speaker 1: that too, And I hope that um, you know, the
Speaker 1: the word on everybody's lips, who's I don't know, coming
Speaker 1: at this from kind of a little bit of a
Speaker 1: more uh, either radical or desperate point of view, depending
Speaker 1: on how you want to frame it. Is like general strike,
Speaker 1: general strike, and you know, there's there's been some there's
Speaker 1: been people online who keep saying like, Okay, well we're
Speaker 1: all just gonna go on on Black Friday, everybody general strike,
Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, well you don't. You don't set
Speaker 1: that up on Twitter. Like the the unions that are
Speaker 1: striking now have strike funds and put a lot of
Speaker 1: thought into it and have like had to take there's
Speaker 1: things you have to do in order to not irresponsibly
Speaker 1: like just screw over a bunch of working people. Um,
Speaker 1: but it is like, I'm a believer in the potential
Speaker 1: of something like a general strike to to forcing nificant concessions.
Speaker 1: I mean, if we did it right, Yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: I think if. I mean, it's a huge if because
Speaker 1: it's never really effectively been like there's been pieces of
Speaker 1: it done like we saw. I think the closest we've
Speaker 1: gotten in like my lifetime has been when the the
Speaker 1: airline workers threatened to go on strike over the over
Speaker 1: the budget thing, and you just saw the federal government go,
Speaker 1: oh fuck, nope, you know what, we can actually pass
Speaker 1: this thing. I mean, that's the thing like that threat
Speaker 1: that I think that was Sara Nelson said that even
Speaker 1: like hinted towards that in twenty nineteen when the government shutdown.
Speaker 1: That's sort of that was a tipping point. I think
Speaker 1: that's the first time people, well really was well the
Speaker 1: first time in many people's lifetimes that an actual labor
Speaker 1: leader with that platform had even mentioned those words. Because
Speaker 1: general like general strikes historically kind of are more situated
Speaker 1: than that late nineteenth century, early twentieth century, like labor
Speaker 1: swinging its stick around era and we've been kneecapped so
Speaker 1: much that doesn't feel it is as possible. But I
Speaker 1: mean the fact that she said, and she was part
Speaker 1: of the airline industry. If we're ever going to actually
Speaker 1: you know, bring capital to its knees, we're going to
Speaker 1: need the transportation workers. We're gonna need the dock workers.
Speaker 1: We're gonna need to like actually analyze who is moving
Speaker 1: things around the country, who's making sure things work, and
Speaker 1: how can we get them to put down to down
Speaker 1: their tools and be like, Okay, we're gonna do something
Speaker 1: about this. You know, the whole general strike idea, I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean, and arguably like one of the first ones
Speaker 1: was you know, Black reconstruction. They the book, there's a uh,
Speaker 1: this argument that the first general strike was enslaved enslaved
Speaker 1: people leaving the plantations and with drawing their labor from
Speaker 1: that situation, like that was a form of striking. And
Speaker 1: I think the general strike is kind of a morphous idea,
Speaker 1: especially online as more people learn about labor and learn
Speaker 1: about it, But it's also like kind of a specific thing,
Speaker 1: like you can't just declare like, Okay, we're all not
Speaker 1: going to go to work till more. Are like cool,
Speaker 1: But there's so much planning that goes into it to
Speaker 1: make sure that people are able to do that and
Speaker 1: sustain that. And the people that are traditionally you know,
Speaker 1: already left out were the most vulnerable and marginalize like
Speaker 1: that their needs are prioritized because the people that can
Speaker 1: afford to declare general strike and not show up for
Speaker 1: a week, like that's all well and good for them,
Speaker 1: but what about everyone else who can barely afford to
Speaker 1: go to work at all? Yeah, I've had these arguments
Speaker 1: with people online, and it's often like, well, you're saying
Speaker 1: we shouldn't like if we just do it, people will
Speaker 1: figure it out, like the infrastructure will be build after
Speaker 1: the fact. And I'm like that's I'm glad that you're
Speaker 1: in a situation where you feel like you could you
Speaker 1: could handle that kind of uncertainty. But like a single
Speaker 1: mother of four who relies on her job to like
Speaker 1: keep them fed and alive, isn't going to be like
Speaker 1: someone will figure out how to feed my kids, Like, well,
Speaker 1: that's not how people work, you know. Yeah, this is
Speaker 1: we're having like a robust commitment to mutual aid and
Speaker 1: strike funds, and like an actual fabric, like having the
Speaker 1: fabric of community where you can depend on your neighbors
Speaker 1: instead of never talking to them, Like a general strike
Speaker 1: would have a huge impact, but on who, Like who
Speaker 1: would it hurt more if you didn't plan it properly,
Speaker 1: if you didn't have if you didn't have an actual
Speaker 1: grassroots network of people ready to help, if you didn't
Speaker 1: need to understanding that not everyone can just go run
Speaker 1: off in the streets. Some people like have mobility issues,
Speaker 1: some people have children, some people are older or sicker. Like,
Speaker 1: there's so much that goes into it. Yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: your car is fucked up and you know you need
Speaker 1: to take it in to get some stuff fixed, or
Speaker 1: it's eventually going to break down entirely. But that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean the right solution is just get in there and
Speaker 1: start hitting ship with a hammer, like you need there
Speaker 1: needs to be like some systemic way you approach it right,
Speaker 1: Like there's a proper way to fix an engine, right,
Speaker 1: and we can do that, Like we can start building
Speaker 1: those networks. We can start you can organize your workplace
Speaker 1: and plug into the into like the organized labor framework,
Speaker 1: which obviously as many flaws, not as radical as I
Speaker 1: would and many other people would like it to be.
Speaker 1: But they know how to do this. Ship Like, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of different pieces that can be pulled together
Speaker 1: in different organizations and populations that need to work together
Speaker 1: if we're actually going to accomplish something like this, And
Speaker 1: I don't know if people are ready to put in
Speaker 1: all that work because it's more fun to tweet. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I'm wondering, as they say in Alabama, bless their hearts,
Speaker 1: You're you're spending a tremendous mman, as you just noted,
Speaker 1: you're spending a tremendous amount of time on the ground
Speaker 1: with a lot of these people talking with them. Are
Speaker 1: you are you seeing kind of how how are you
Speaker 1: hearing them talk about the other strike efforts you know
Speaker 1: in other industries that are going on right now, because
Speaker 1: it has been more in the news than it's been
Speaker 1: at any point I can recall in the recent past.
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering how in places like Bessemer, you know,
Speaker 1: in places like um you know that coal miners strike
Speaker 1: you've been at, like, how are they being are to
Speaker 1: what extent are they talking about other strike efforts, Like
Speaker 1: is that does that seem to be something that there's
Speaker 1: a lot of kind of consciousness and discussion about or
Speaker 1: is it just kind of in the background. I mean,
Speaker 1: it really depends. I like you said, I've spent I
Speaker 1: spent most of my time with the coal miners over
Speaker 1: the past years. I've been writing a book and I
Speaker 1: spent my one my one fun thing. But I've been
Speaker 1: I mean I talked to them every single day, and
Speaker 1: I've been to Alabama lots of times, and I you know,
Speaker 1: I'm in a group chat with the wives, Like I know,
Speaker 1: I have a decent grasp what was going on. And honestly,
Speaker 1: the thing about it is that some there, there's some
Speaker 1: folks who are very engaged and who have made twitters
Speaker 1: and they have their Facebook groups, and they do pay
Speaker 1: attention what's happening, and they do think they feel that
Speaker 1: kind of excitement and that wide spread says its solidarity.
Speaker 1: But one thing that's important to remember, especially for workers
Speaker 1: who are already disadvantaged or they're dealing with low wage labor,
Speaker 1: is like it's really hard to go on strike. Like
Speaker 1: there's a lot of ship they have to figure out,
Speaker 1: Like there's kids, there's health issues, there's how am I
Speaker 1: going to pay my rent? Like, like funds are great,
Speaker 1: but they don't cover everything. Like I think that's one
Speaker 1: of the realities that maybe gets sort of glossed over
Speaker 1: because we're also on line that we like to you
Speaker 1: and me feel like, oh, everyone's fucking stoked about these strikes.
Speaker 1: But for someone in rural Alabama who is just hoping
Speaker 1: this strike is over soon so they can go back
Speaker 1: to work and have some financial stability, they're not necessarily
Speaker 1: reading your tweets or like signing up for webinars or
Speaker 1: even paying attention to like cool other strike efforts. I'm
Speaker 1: sure some some folks are aware and they find have
Speaker 1: that time to plug in, but most people are just
Speaker 1: trying to get by. And these are folks who have
Speaker 1: spend like eight hours a day on the picket lines
Speaker 1: and there's no cell phone service out where their picket
Speaker 1: lines are, Like, there's only so much that a normal
Speaker 1: regular worker on the picket line can do to keep up.
Speaker 1: And um, you came into this, I think, unlike a
Speaker 1: lot of the people who are who are actually striking,
Speaker 1: you came into this with a lifelong history of the
Speaker 1: like of interest in kind of uh, labor justice movements
Speaker 1: and whatnot, which I don't think most people who are
Speaker 1: in unions necessarily spend a ton of time studying the
Speaker 1: last hundred years of labor relations Um, what has surprised you? Like?
Speaker 1: What what have what? What has like been a new
Speaker 1: realization that you've gotten since you started covering the stuff
Speaker 1: on the ground in this most recent period. So the
Speaker 1: thing that's really sticks with me and I'm going back
Speaker 1: to my minors again because that's, you know, my where
Speaker 1: the most familiarity, but something that I think has so
Speaker 1: much potential and I'm not going to entirely sure how
Speaker 1: to articulate what that potential is. But so something I
Speaker 1: have seen is when this strike began, most not all,
Speaker 1: but the majority of the folks involved in this particular strike,
Speaker 1: or conservative Christian people who were a lot of voted
Speaker 1: for trial, but a lot of them were like just
Speaker 1: in that world, maybe not like you know, wild mega people,
Speaker 1: but that's just what was the norm where they are
Speaker 1: in their community. And then we'll think about that much.
Speaker 1: But there are some people that I've seen, especially those
Speaker 1: were involved in the mutual aid efforts or have been
Speaker 1: who have seen Birmingham DSA come out who have kind
Speaker 1: of taken this kind of like wider review of what's happening,
Speaker 1: how they fit, and I've seen their politics and their
Speaker 1: perspective shift, Like there are some people who are like
Speaker 1: straight up socialists now that seven months ago would have
Speaker 1: probably spit in your face or at least given you
Speaker 1: a hell of a look if you wouldn't even suggested
Speaker 1: such a thing. And this is a small sample size,
Speaker 1: and this is a unique situation, but I think it
Speaker 1: really speaks to the potential there to like reach people
Speaker 1: who are very ideologically politically different from what we maybe
Speaker 1: think of as labor people, as progressive, radical whatever people
Speaker 1: on our team, right, But the power of the strike
Speaker 1: and the power of labor is that there is so
Speaker 1: much there. There's kind of an inherent common ground because
Speaker 1: so many people, most people, a lot of people, most
Speaker 1: people have a job, a lot of people hate their boss.
Speaker 1: You can kind of build from that very very low
Speaker 1: baseline and find more common ground, and kind of you
Speaker 1: can you can work towards a better understanding, Like maybe
Speaker 1: you're not going to be best friends, but you can
Speaker 1: potentially shift someone's harmful worldview by exposing them to new
Speaker 1: ideas once they trust that you're not just there to
Speaker 1: tell them they're wrong and stupid and bad. Really, look,
Speaker 1: we were coming at this like I'm going to talk
Speaker 1: to you like a person. I understand we see the
Speaker 1: world differently, but like you know, I'm here to support you.
Speaker 1: I'm here listening to you. Maybe you could listen to
Speaker 1: what I have to say too, Maybe it might change
Speaker 1: how you see things. And sometimes it works. Yeah, yeah, um,
Speaker 1: you know what else works? Kim blowing shut up? Well okay,
Speaker 1: alleged allegedly um minecraft. Yeah, I was gonna say cap ads,
Speaker 1: cap ads, m ads and services. Um, but I like
Speaker 1: your answer better. So let's just let's just let's just
Speaker 1: roll out with that material support, right. Like another concrete
Speaker 1: example there, the Birmingham DSA has been very active in
Speaker 1: fundraising and showing up and just providing support for the
Speaker 1: miners and and the people on strike. And this is
Speaker 1: not necessarily a population of people that like the idea
Speaker 1: of socialism, whatever idea of it is that they hold,
Speaker 1: because Fox News and rusal In Barre are big cultural
Speaker 1: stand bias there like whatever they think socialism is, and
Speaker 1: then have a bunch of socialists show up and just
Speaker 1: practice solidarity and mutual aiding practice socialism, and they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: these guys are great, thank you for coming out and
Speaker 1: things like that, where it's like, I feel like so
Speaker 1: much of a radical politics in various you know, various tendencies.
Speaker 1: There's just like a branding problem, and there's a propaganda
Speaker 1: problem on the right wing, and the main sture media
Speaker 1: doesn't tell anybody what anything means. Like, yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: broader conversation, right, But yeah, I felt for a while
Speaker 1: like one of the things that leftist organized just need
Speaker 1: to get better at doing is being willing to like
Speaker 1: drop names when they're not productive. Like, Okay, maybe these people,
Speaker 1: because of the media environment, they've grown up and are
Speaker 1: never gonna want to consider themselves socialists, But if they
Speaker 1: are willing to organize together and support the efforts of
Speaker 1: other working people to organize together against the capital holding class,
Speaker 1: like then okay, Like what is it? Why do you
Speaker 1: need them to like start quoting Carl Marx or is
Speaker 1: it just cool that you've you've got them doing what
Speaker 1: they like? Yeah? I that makes a lot of sense
Speaker 1: to me that, like, yes, some that you can get
Speaker 1: a lot of these people on board with again, pretty
Speaker 1: radical things if you're if you're kind of approaching it
Speaker 1: from within their world, from within, like I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to talk to you about burning down the system. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to talk to you about how you get what
Speaker 1: you need. And it just so happens that how you
Speaker 1: get what you need um is taking the system on
Speaker 1: in a very direct way. I mean, so many ideas
Speaker 1: that are painted as radical just like aren't like that's
Speaker 1: normal people caring for him, like it is like community
Speaker 1: care and common sense. It's just been politicized to this
Speaker 1: insane extent, and even it's like, oh sorry, I'm just
Speaker 1: like even like a lot a lot of the tenants
Speaker 1: of mutual aid you can even see pop up in
Speaker 1: a lot of like church communities as well, at least
Speaker 1: like at least like smaller you know, closer knit like
Speaker 1: communities that are actually based around helping each other at
Speaker 1: least I was. I've observed that and a lot of
Speaker 1: my time traveling across the States. Yeah, absolutely, that's a
Speaker 1: huge part of it. Like the church is the only
Speaker 1: mutual aid option in so many like smaller and more
Speaker 1: ice li rural communities or just communities where the church
Speaker 1: is a big deal, Like there's always ways to chip
Speaker 1: away these institutions and eventually hopefully burned them down right
Speaker 1: without alienating people and making them feel like you're coming
Speaker 1: in and telling them everything you believe is wrong and
Speaker 1: actually and making the mistakes. And of these folks, I'm
Speaker 1: sure they believe things that are absolute garbage, and I
Speaker 1: would never everybody, you know, like there's you know, but
Speaker 1: there's there's just covering This strike in particular has really
Speaker 1: just taught me a lot about the gray areas in between,
Speaker 1: not in like I wish you watched a liberal way,
Speaker 1: but just in a way of like, how do you
Speaker 1: relate to normal fucking people who see the world differently
Speaker 1: but are in ultimately the same struggle as you, Like,
Speaker 1: maybe I could, I mean going down there. The only
Speaker 1: time I've been around that many Trump supporters was like
Speaker 1: at protests where I was yelling at them, or like
Speaker 1: at my family dinners. So I wasn't, you know, I
Speaker 1: wasn't expecting to make friends, But then I did, And
Speaker 1: I think hopefully we've we've shifted each other's perspectives a
Speaker 1: little bit in a way that's beneficial. I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's been, it's been interesting. Yes, talking to people really
Speaker 1: is a lot different than tweeting at them. Yeah, as
Speaker 1: a rule, don't tweet would be my recommendation to people.
Speaker 1: Never never talk to your neighbors and be nice to
Speaker 1: people when you buy coffee or food from them, and
Speaker 1: amazed what happens, and yeah, tell your neighbors. Hey, I'm
Speaker 1: taking my phone down to the river to throw it in.
Speaker 1: Can I take your phone with me? Can we just
Speaker 1: all throw our phones in the river? Um, yeah, if
Speaker 1: you want to. If you're gonna start at being the
Speaker 1: weird neighbor, it's a strong start. Look, we've already killed
Speaker 1: the water system, so it's fine, like just right in
Speaker 1: the river with the car batteries, you know, they're The
Speaker 1: thing I love about our show is just the hope,
Speaker 1: is the incredibly hope injected optimism that we start an
Speaker 1: end every episode with. But no, I mean, like me, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: the more people you know in your community, especially people
Speaker 1: who are like working class, you know, when bad stuff
Speaker 1: starts happening, the more people you know the better, Because
Speaker 1: that's I'm guessing a lot of a lot of these
Speaker 1: people who are like you know, like like like like
Speaker 1: old like old union workers. They have a lot of
Speaker 1: like physical skills, like like they know how to do
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of stuff, and it might be worth
Speaker 1: getting to know some of those people, even if you
Speaker 1: know where you live, Like, yeah, they'll probably say something
Speaker 1: not great at least for you know, the first bit.
Speaker 1: But once you know, I have a lot of family
Speaker 1: and like a rural area of Alberta, and like, yeah,
Speaker 1: my my family is like pretty gay. Um So you know,
Speaker 1: once you're in close to the people, yeah, they're they're
Speaker 1: gonna say something that's maybe not great. But once they
Speaker 1: get to like know you and really be like, oh,
Speaker 1: like you're another person. They like people. Actually, you know,
Speaker 1: people want to be around other people, and they'll even
Speaker 1: change the way they talk to be like oh yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe this isn't the best way to hang out around
Speaker 1: people because it's going to drive people away. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll change the way I say some things because like
Speaker 1: it turns out people actually, like a lot of a
Speaker 1: lot of folks just kind of want to make their
Speaker 1: lives a bit better and that's really their main focus. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's hard to not to do that, and it's it's
Speaker 1: it's just this matter of like so much of what
Speaker 1: um so much of what kind of the way that
Speaker 1: discourse happens online has poisoned aspects of active is M
Speaker 1: is in like making it difficult for people to relate
Speaker 1: in that way without feeling like, well, okay, but if
Speaker 1: I can't get them on board with all of these
Speaker 1: other things, like I can't talk with them or whatever,
Speaker 1: like because they're because they don't agree with you like
Speaker 1: this and this, like we can't organize like the purity
Speaker 1: of ideology. Yeah, Like I feel like most people who
Speaker 1: aren't terminally online don't even necessarily have like a specific
Speaker 1: ideology not yeah yeah right, Like there's just stuff that
Speaker 1: they have learned or they have decided that is true
Speaker 1: about the world. They just kind of go with it
Speaker 1: and they'll interrogated all the time, and you can like
Speaker 1: those are people you can talk to and maybe ship,
Speaker 1: like I've done it with my dad, Like I've seen
Speaker 1: it happen with some of these conservative coal minor folks.
Speaker 1: Like something as small as being able to humanize, like like, okay,
Speaker 1: if you're talking about something, oh like, well, the thing
Speaker 1: you said like that really upset Joey and you like Joey,
Speaker 1: so like maybe think about that, and they'll probably be
Speaker 1: chiller because like, oh, well that's you know, it's Joey.
Speaker 1: I can't don't want to be a dick to them.
Speaker 1: If we can just find a way to enact that
Speaker 1: on a pray broad scale, life would be a lot
Speaker 1: better for a lot of people. Yeah, it's this. It's
Speaker 1: this dichotomy between a lot people want to own the
Speaker 1: folks they see as like being against them or being
Speaker 1: on the other side. But also people don't want to
Speaker 1: be a dick to people that like they like, you
Speaker 1: don't want to feel like you're a dick. So if
Speaker 1: you if you lean more into the weird in opposition,
Speaker 1: then you're going to trigger the well I want to
Speaker 1: I want to make the person who disagrees with me
Speaker 1: angry side of the brain. But if you can lean
Speaker 1: into the like, hey, like we can get along like
Speaker 1: and I and and maybe you don't want to feel
Speaker 1: like an asshole if we get along, then I don't know,
Speaker 1: that's a productive place to to continue conversations from and
Speaker 1: a good way to shift people. I think. And then
Speaker 1: when you're and then when your area floods because of
Speaker 1: severe rain and storms, that we have people that can help. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the importance of interacting with people in person like offline,
Speaker 1: which is like obviously more difficult to do because we're
Speaker 1: still trying to depend Yeah, like their caveat, caveat, caveat,
Speaker 1: but like it's so much easier to talk to someone
Speaker 1: and kind of like see the world you shift, or
Speaker 1: even to humanize yourself to someone who is inclined to
Speaker 1: not thinking of you as someone worth talking to, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: as long as it's not you're not putting yourself in danger,
Speaker 1: like there's yeah, obviously I'm a blond lady, you know.
Speaker 1: But yeah, still we're not talking about like, oh, you
Speaker 1: have to go be friendly to people who want to
Speaker 1: murder you because your trance. No, it's about No, we're
Speaker 1: not saying that. But most of these people don't think
Speaker 1: that maybe they have some regressive attitude or or they'll
Speaker 1: use the word gay to mean something, you know, not cool,
Speaker 1: and you'd be like, hey, you don't have to to
Speaker 1: be like, hey, you know, I'm you know, I'm actually
Speaker 1: gay jan or maybe don't hope that maybe you do
Speaker 1: depending on the situation, to be like yeah, maybe maybe
Speaker 1: there's other words that we can use for this, because whatever, yeah,
Speaker 1: and and you can shift people into a your alliance, um,
Speaker 1: just by becoming a human in their eyes and also
Speaker 1: letting them become a human in your eyes, um, which
Speaker 1: is necessary. The other option is not a pleasant one.
Speaker 1: So I would prefer the option where more people grow
Speaker 1: to see each other as human and worth supporting. Right,
Speaker 1: I know there's better tactic to me. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: There's this argument where like, no one is like I
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to educate you, I shouldn't have to put
Speaker 1: the time into to shift you, and like that is valid,
Speaker 1: that's fair, Like you shouldn't have to but ideally know, yeah,
Speaker 1: but if you want to that change to happen, it's
Speaker 1: probably not going to happen unless she puts an effort
Speaker 1: in because they're probably not gone. They think they're fine.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, there's a bunch of ship that
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have to do that we're also all gonna
Speaker 1: have to do Like I shouldn't we I shouldn't have
Speaker 1: to say, hey, guys, maybe we don't kill the ocean.
Speaker 1: Maybe killing the ocean is a bad idea, Like I
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to no one should have to say that,
Speaker 1: but we do not top not please the fact that
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have to do something. Also doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: like the thing doesn't need to be done. And obviously
Speaker 1: I don't think that the primary onus on speaking to
Speaker 1: let's say, the kind of increasingly radicalized white, lower middle
Speaker 1: and middle class. I don't think that falls primarily on
Speaker 1: on people of color, on on the LGBT community. It
Speaker 1: falls on people like you and make Kim. You know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's still has to be done. Like it's a
Speaker 1: thing that needs to be done. And I'm not saying, hey,
Speaker 1: you out there, who you know, left where you grew
Speaker 1: up in rural Alabama because someone was going to fucking
Speaker 1: murder you and you had to get to a place
Speaker 1: where you could not deal with that. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: you need to go rolling back to Alabama. Um, but
Speaker 1: it's good that people are talking and working with and
Speaker 1: trying to build connections with folks out there and change
Speaker 1: the nature of kind of aspects of the culture and
Speaker 1: make things better, because that needs to be done. We
Speaker 1: can't just be like, well fuck some of those people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we get that. That is definitely easier if you
Speaker 1: are like one of the bros. If you are you know,
Speaker 1: a bigger sis adjacent dude, that is that is of
Speaker 1: course going to make things easier. Yeah, I mean when
Speaker 1: you think about like that's kind of the text, that's
Speaker 1: the right word. But the fact that you do feel
Speaker 1: comfortable and you're you're safe and you're not under a
Speaker 1: threat in those spaces because of who you are, like
Speaker 1: as like a white sister or even a white says
Speaker 1: lady like you like the price you pay for that
Speaker 1: is making it easier for everyone else to feel that too,
Speaker 1: like exactly, like that's your job, other people's jobs to survive,
Speaker 1: and you can be the one that pushes the boundaries
Speaker 1: on these things. So when someone says something not great,
Speaker 1: you can kind of call them out in like a
Speaker 1: browish way, and they can respond to that a lot
Speaker 1: better than, you know than a lot of other people
Speaker 1: who they don't know, you know, screaming at them in
Speaker 1: a no context scenario. We're like, oh, like, oh, you don't.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm a pretty lady. You don't want to
Speaker 1: make me upset by being wooed that exactly, yeah, Like
Speaker 1: you shouldn't. You should see this thing as rude and
Speaker 1: not okay. Like the amount of men who have apologized
Speaker 1: me down there for swearing it's so funny. Yeah, man,
Speaker 1: my dude, I live in Philadelphia. But that's cute. But
Speaker 1: if I could dis harness any of that like chivalrous
Speaker 1: whatever rose patriarchal viewpoint, like hey, apply this to being
Speaker 1: cool to my trans friends are like not being rude
Speaker 1: to anyone else, Like sure, I'm down. Yeah, we don't
Speaker 1: take collingly to miss gendering around these parts. Yeah, for
Speaker 1: a lot of people at least, like you know, when
Speaker 1: I worked at like smaller workplaces, you know, where it's
Speaker 1: like a small business where I know the owner. Even
Speaker 1: if I mean if some other employees want to unionize,
Speaker 1: the prospect is always kind of more weird or challenging
Speaker 1: because you know, it's a smaller business. Maybe it's like
Speaker 1: connected to like a larger, you know, larger overall industry.
Speaker 1: You know, like when I was like when I when
Speaker 1: I was like a park or instructor, right, I had
Speaker 1: discussions with other with other like employees about doing you know,
Speaker 1: like a Parker instructors union type thing. But but it's
Speaker 1: it's it's hard when there's there's like not many of
Speaker 1: you or like you know the owner. What would you
Speaker 1: say is like good good ways to at least get
Speaker 1: get that conversation going among other employees and then you know,
Speaker 1: like similar similar examples from other stuff for people who
Speaker 1: deal with like smaller workplaces that aren't you know, like
Speaker 1: a co worker. They're not working for the Amazon or anything.
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's more like small local stuff, right, So,
Speaker 1: like the most important basic building block of of all
Speaker 1: this is one on one conversation that's organizing. Right, And
Speaker 1: even if you just work with like three or four
Speaker 1: other people and maybe unionizing and a formal structure doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily make sense or it seems like it might be
Speaker 1: too much of a headache, you're still you know, like
Speaker 1: a group of workers coming together is still a union.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what the n l r B has
Speaker 1: to say about it. And you you have shared interests
Speaker 1: and share challenges, and there's things that work you probably
Speaker 1: want to change. So even coming together and discussing that
Speaker 1: through coworkers, Like, there's no law that says you have
Speaker 1: to be in a union. If you want to get
Speaker 1: some ship done, you can march on your boss at
Speaker 1: WW style and make them and demand a meeting. You
Speaker 1: can make a petition, you can do public pressure campaigns,
Speaker 1: like all of the things when all of them, but
Speaker 1: a lot of the tools that we see organized labor
Speaker 1: engaging in and union is engaging in those are those
Speaker 1: are available to everyone else too. It's easier if you're
Speaker 1: within that framework because you have that firepower behind you
Speaker 1: and you have maybe some legal protections, but just as workers,
Speaker 1: you know, I guess it's more like the IWW solidarity
Speaker 1: uneuse a multiply where like we didn't like we don't
Speaker 1: need to do no stinking badges like we're a union
Speaker 1: because we say we're a union. We're going to take
Speaker 1: control of things in our own way. Like you see
Speaker 1: this in UM. I'm trying to say, I think what's
Speaker 1: it called diversity threast there's a there's a threast shop
Speaker 1: and I think Richmond, Virginia where workers just like they
Speaker 1: weren't being treated properly. I think it was like a
Speaker 1: like a queer community space that wasn't living up to
Speaker 1: its values due to actions by management, and so they
Speaker 1: just put a letter on the doors that we're not
Speaker 1: coming to work until you fix this. Here are clear demands,
Speaker 1: here's what we need. Here you go figure it out.
Speaker 1: Like I don't think they're in a formal union, but
Speaker 1: they're acting collectively and that's something that is totally available
Speaker 1: that to everyone as long as you're in a workplace.
Speaker 1: If you're independent contractor like me and probably some of you,
Speaker 1: that sucks and it's harder, but you can always find
Speaker 1: your people and you can always there's always options, right,
Speaker 1: Like you don't have to just join at union. You
Speaker 1: don't have to be a teamster to get shipped done. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think you know when you were saying that, I
Speaker 1: was going through my past experience as a place like that,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah, we we kind of did do
Speaker 1: some of that stuff to varying degrees of success. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it works out well, sometimes it doesn't work out so well. Um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean there was definitely a while where
Speaker 1: we did that did definitely make them make some decent
Speaker 1: changes kind of based on on that model. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: kind of a shift of perception where like you were
Speaker 1: just doing this because this is because you're a worker,
Speaker 1: and like we need to do this. But if you
Speaker 1: just take a step back and think about it's like
Speaker 1: this is a labor at s and we're a union
Speaker 1: of workers. Like even just that little shift where it's
Speaker 1: like it's it's always us against them, but look as
Speaker 1: us as a little as a group, as a collective
Speaker 1: against this manager, against this exploitative practice. I think that
Speaker 1: has a little bit of power and a little bit
Speaker 1: of energy because your religion now and I'm still I
Speaker 1: think maybe it makes you feel a little less alone
Speaker 1: and also like and like you know, concerned activity is
Speaker 1: a legally protective yard too, so like there are some
Speaker 1: bits and pieces of labor law that are useful in
Speaker 1: these situations too, if you have a nerdy friend who
Speaker 1: would like to read about them for you. All right, well,
Speaker 1: I think that's going to do it for us here
Speaker 1: and it could happen here. Um until next time, remember,
Speaker 1: um you fuck it organized? And where can people find
Speaker 1: Kim Kelly online if we want to send angry tweets?
Speaker 1: Oh well just try me, buddy, um grim Kim because
Speaker 1: my college radio DJ name will never die. And uh
Speaker 1: you can if you are thus inclined, you can pre
Speaker 1: order my book. But like hell, the Untold History of
Speaker 1: American Labor on the internet hopefully not Amazon, hopefully not. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you do like, thank you, but there's
Speaker 1: other places that are better. You do you want people
Speaker 1: to send you a bunch of random knives, Kim knives.
Speaker 1: I mean I wouldn't. We've had a lot of luck
Speaker 1: with that in the past. I like nice that, like skincare.
Speaker 1: I like loose leaf tea. I contain multitudes. Really, send
Speaker 1: Kim a loose leaf T skincare knife, one of those,
Speaker 1: one of those exfoliating knives with a with a T
Speaker 1: infuser in the in the hilt. Somebody make that great.
Speaker 1: Somebody that sounds like that sounds like the next behind
Speaker 1: the bastards merch. Yeah, the T knife. Yeah, well, we'll
Speaker 1: put that out after we get finished where We've got
Speaker 1: a very exciting Black Friday product this year, which is
Speaker 1: a male to male uh let's adapter. People say you
Speaker 1: shouldn't do it. They say it causes electrocution and fires
Speaker 1: and death. And I think those people are cuts um
Speaker 1: by our mail to mail adapter show the woke establishment
Speaker 1: that you won't be you won't be chained. It could
Speaker 1: happen here as a production of pool Zone Media. Well
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool
Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
Speaker 1: to podcasts you can find sources for It could happen here,
Speaker 1: Updated monthly at cool Zone media dot com slash sources.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.