1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Steph you missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. We get 4 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,639 Speaker 1: a lot of emails from publicists and authors pitching books 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: to us to feature on the show. I mean a lot, 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: a lot, very many. Until now we have mostly been 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: talking to people who are writing non fiction, but earlier 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: this summer we got a note from a publicist about 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: an author whose work has inspired three different episodes of 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: this show. Our episodes on the Year Without a Summer 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: and the Cato Street Conspiracy. We're both inspired by books 12 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: and Mary Robin at Kal's Glamorous History series, and she 13 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: was also the person who suggested that we cover the 14 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: first Russian women's Battalion of Death, which made an appearance 15 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: in the Six Impossible Episodes Soldiers, Snipers and Spies episode. 16 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: And now she has written a pair of books that 17 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: are called The Lady Astronaut Duology, and they touch on 18 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: a lot of subjects that we've covered on the show 19 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: or that we know our listeners are interested in. There's 20 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: the women Air Force Service pilots, the early days of NASA, 21 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: and the women computers who were crucial to the success 22 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: of the early space program. That last one is not 23 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: an episode of our show yet, but it is certainly 24 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: on the list. So since there is so much overlap 25 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: between the world of our podcast and the world of 26 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: Mary Robinett Coal's writing, I was very excited to have 27 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: the chance to bring her onto the show. We are 28 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: going to talk about how she incorporates history into her writing, 29 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: and then we are also going to talk about the 30 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: real history that has inspired these new books. So let's 31 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: get to it. Hi, Mary Robinett Coal, Welcome to the show. 32 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. I am a 33 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: huge fan. I am a huge fan of you. This 34 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: works out really well. We we have several episodes of 35 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: our show that have been inspired by your books, and 36 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: so when I got a note about about having you 37 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 1: on for these new books, it seemed like a very 38 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 1: natural fit. One of the reasons I wanted to talk 39 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: to you today is that your published novels all have 40 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: historical settings. So we have the Glamorous Histories, which are 41 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: Jane Austen with Magic for listeners who maybe don't know 42 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: they're set in the regency. There's Ghost Talkers, which is 43 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: set in Europe during World War One. And then there 44 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: are these new books, The Calculating Stars, which is out 45 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: now and The Faded Sky, which is coming out just 46 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: after this episode of our podcast does, and that's set 47 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: in an alternate space race starting in nineteen fifty two. 48 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: Has your research process been consistent among all of these 49 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: novels or is the setting that you're researching influencing the 50 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: research that you have to do. It's a little bit 51 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: of a mix. Um. My research process has evolved as 52 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: I've learned kind of more about my writing process. So 53 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: what I did in tually was that I would research 54 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: very well, actually know with with the very first novel 55 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: I'm Just Like I Love Jane Austin, and then there 56 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: were a lot of mistakes. But after that, what I 57 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: would do is I would research the period very very heavily, uh, 58 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: and then I would write. And what I discovered was 59 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: that I would wind up with a lot of information 60 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: that I wasn't going to use. So what I do 61 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: now is um and and have for several books as 62 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: a layered approach, which is I do kind of some 63 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: broad research to get a sense of the era that 64 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: I'm looking at, but generally I'm picking an era because 65 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: I've already come across something that has interested me, and 66 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: then that kind of begins to shape the story. And 67 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: as I work on the outline, I narrowed down and 68 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: hone my research so that it's more specific to what 69 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: I'm actually doing. The other thing that I would say 70 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: that has changed about my research process is that I 71 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: now assume that women and people of color and non 72 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: binary people are there in history and have just been 73 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: left out. So I go specifically looking for them and 74 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: you find them, Oh yeah, because they're everywhere. It's like 75 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: because they really were there, right, It's like this is 76 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: not a not a twenty one century invention. Um you know, 77 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: uh people of color, like you know there were there 78 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: were black Roman legionaries in in Scotland. I mean people, 79 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: people have been around a long time of all times. 80 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: It's it's not like we're you know, inventing things. It's 81 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: not like women suddenly appeared in nine. No. No, there 82 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: was a there was a review which I was delighted 83 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: to get but because it was in a national paper. 84 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: But it said, uh, something like if if Nasa had 85 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: had a heroine with an attitude, and I like NASA 86 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: did actually they had quite a number of them. Um 87 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: they just have maybe consumed a lot of the mass 88 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: media that presents astronauts and NASA's being, you know, all 89 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: whitened with chiseled jaws. But I mean Sally Ride, she 90 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: kind of she was good with NASA. I love Sally Ride. 91 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: I think one day we might have a podcast about her. 92 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: We don't yet. So you mentioned that when you when 93 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: you started out just by writing you Love Jane Authen, 94 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: you wrote a book that was Janausen with magic. And 95 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: then there were mistakes and it can you can you 96 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: tell me what any of the mistakes were. Oh, there's 97 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: so many. Um So, Like some of them are very 98 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: simple in a language level. For instance, I have them 99 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: I shall go out and check on the strawberries. And 100 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: the problem is that check at the time just meant stop, 101 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: So I will go out and stop on the strawberries. 102 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: It's like it's not um So. Some of them are 103 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: simple things like that. But other things are dinner parties. 104 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 1: I thought that the pairing up of couples and processing 105 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: into dinner parties is just how it was had always 106 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: been done. Uh. And it turns out in the regency 107 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: that's not at all the way things happen. Um, First, 108 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: the ladies lineup in order of precedence, and they go 109 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: in and they sit where they want to based on, 110 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: you know, their choice, because they're the first one in 111 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: the room. And then the gentleman line up in order 112 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: of precedence and they go in and sit down next 113 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: to who they want to. So it's you know, it's 114 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: important to understand that that at times when you're like, 115 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: oh and so and so was sitting next to the 116 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: part of the reason that was a big deal was 117 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: because the man had chosen to sit there, um, or 118 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: sometimes he had been forced to because someone else had 119 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: gotten into the room earlier. Wow, I didn't know that 120 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: at all. Right, something you said a moment ago brings 121 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: me to my next question, which is, I know that 122 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: now you're doing a lot to make sure the language 123 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: that you're using and the language that your characters are 124 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: speaking is not an achronistic. What are you doing to 125 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: make sure that there aren't a lot of anachronisms in 126 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: the language of these books? So with the Jane Austen books, 127 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: it was really simple. Um. And I say that in 128 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: the process that I'm about to describe, will sound anything 129 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: but simple UM. I created a Jane Austen spell check dictionary, 130 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: So basically I took the complete works of Jane Austen, 131 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: created it, ran it through Concordance Engine, which gave me 132 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: just a list of words that she used, and used 133 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: that as my spell checked dictionary. So it flagged anywhere 134 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: that Jane Austen did not use, which allowed me to 135 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: look it up and then see whether or not it 136 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: existed or if the usage had shifted. UM. It didn't 137 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: save me from words that she did use and the 138 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: usage had shifted, but it caught a lot. I did 139 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: a similar thing with ghost Talkers, but it was a 140 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: little bit harder because a lot of the language that 141 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: I was using in ghost Talkers was so because it 142 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: was dealing with spiritualism, UH and war, so coming up 143 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: with representative texts that covered that stuff was a little 144 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: bit harder. So coming up with the texts to serve 145 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: as as my basis was was trickier. And I did 146 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: not actually try to do this for UM for calculating stars. 147 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: What I did for that was I just paid attention 148 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: to idioms and jargon, looking for things that had shifted UM, 149 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: and then also for regionalisms one of the conversations that 150 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: my my editor and I had um with calculating stars 151 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: was about the use of the phrase oh Lord or 152 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: Lord knows. So, my main character is Southern and this 153 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: is a very common phrase, but she's also Jewish, and 154 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: so the question was, and my editor is Jewish, I'm not, 155 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:02,719 Speaker 1: and so she flagged that she's like, this is this 156 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: is a very Christian phrase. I'm like, I I feel 157 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: like I have heard my Southern Jewish friends say this, 158 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: but I'm not certain. So I went and checked, and 159 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: I stopped on it, and it turns out that it 160 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: was pretty basically, in my highly scientific survey of Twitter, 161 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: that it was pretty evenly split, and the distinction seemed 162 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: to have been kind of how long people had been 163 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: in the South, so it was an assimilation thing. Ultimately, 164 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: I wound up pulling it out because I knew that 165 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: there were going to be enough people for whom that 166 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: would feel wrong, that even if it was correct for 167 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: Elma's character, because her people had been there since the 168 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: seventeen hundreds, it would still feel wrong to a lot 169 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: of people. And so I went ahead and pulled it out. 170 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: There's one or two that I missed, but for the 171 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: most part, I replaced it with God knows. You also 172 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: do audio book narration narration, including the audio book narration 173 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: for some of your own books. Does working within a 174 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: historical setting affect how you work as an audiobook narrator? Yes, um, 175 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: a lot of it. Well. I will say that any 176 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: text affects how I approach something as an audiobook narrator. 177 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: But the way in which people speak shifts. So in 178 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: ghost Talkers, Um, Ginger has a mid Atlantic accent, which 179 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people will flag in reviews. Is that's 180 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: a terrible British accent that she's doing for Ginger? Or 181 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: why does Ginger have something of a British accent? Like 182 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: she doesn't? It's mid Atlantic. That's It's fine, um. But 183 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: also just the approach to narration. When I was narrating 184 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: somebody else's book, The House of Hawthorne, which was looking 185 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: at Hawthorne himself and and his wife and family, the 186 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: prose is different. So that's the way that that the 187 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: rhythms with which you approach it are going to be 188 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: very different than say, when I'm narrating October Day for 189 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: Shawn and McGuire. It's it's just it's baked into the pros, 190 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: and so that affects the way I narrate. The last 191 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: sort of general question that I have for you about 192 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: working in this intersection of fiction and history is when 193 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: you've been working on these books, is there anything that 194 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: you have been surprised to learn was an anachronism or 195 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: the other way around, if that works better, it's surprised 196 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: that something wasn't an anachronism that you thought would be. 197 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: Uh So, one of the words that I cannot use, 198 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: even though it is completely historically accurate in all of 199 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:43,479 Speaker 1: my Jane Austen things is electricity. Jane Austen used electricity 200 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: and electric a couple of times, but it totally sounds 201 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: like an anachronism. So I can't use that, And that 202 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: was surprising actually that it didn't flag um and and 203 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: hitting it in her text. One of the things, like 204 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: all of the things that that catch me off guard 205 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: are are really small things like switch back going up, 206 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: the switch back on on a on the side of 207 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: a hill. Um, that's a railroad term, and so I 208 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: can't use that before there are railroads other things that 209 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: are not anachronisms, but again feel like it or that 210 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: we're surprising barn storming, which I had always thought was 211 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: a flying term, is actually turns out to be a 212 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: theater term that predates the Civil War, and it was 213 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: touring companies would storm into town, set up in a barn, 214 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: and then storm out again. I also always thought that was, uh, 215 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: an aircraft term, Like I imagine that being more about 216 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: air shows. Yeah, winging it also is a theater term. Uh. 217 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: And and what that one? And that was another one 218 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: that was like really because I also thought that that 219 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: was an air term. Uh. And what it meant was 220 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: that when you were doing shows in rep and very 221 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: very fat, you would tape your lines of theater, your 222 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: your lines of text if you had a long speech 223 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 1: to a piece of scenery. But you're rehearsing on the 224 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: set of the previous show, and so sometimes you walk 225 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: out on stage and it turns out that the piece 226 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: of furniture you would rely on being there was in 227 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: the wings to wing it. Yeah, when when you said 228 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: it was a theater term, I immediately thought, Okay, I 229 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: think it has something to do with being in the wings, 230 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: but the furniture part is totally new to me. Right. Yeah, 231 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: there's a really fantastic book that you would love. It's 232 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: out of print, but it's called The Stage Red Menaces 233 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: of Mrs Gilbert. And she was a an actor who 234 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: had a I think sixty year career that began before 235 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: the Civil War UH and went on UH into the 236 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds and um like she acted with John 237 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: Wilkes Booth and and talks about that. But it's fascinating 238 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: learning how theater has has changed over the years. What 239 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: I've generally found, also, I will say, is that the 240 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: places that I am most caught off guard are the 241 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: things that I think I know. So I I double 242 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 1: check all of the theater stuff very very closely. Now, um, 243 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: I double check all of my astronaut uh stuff, all 244 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: of my space stuff very closely, because there's a lot 245 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: of things that we think are common language that are 246 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: not anymore, that were stuff that was used either early 247 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: in the program and has shifted, or is stuff that 248 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: is used now and didn't exist in the early program. 249 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: Mary and I are going to talk about her new 250 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: books and just a moment, but first let's take a 251 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: quick break for a word from a sponsor. In this 252 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: next part of the interview, Tracy and Mary are going 253 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: to talk about the early days of the Space program 254 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: in the United States, along with the ninety nine which 255 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: is an international organization of women pilots, and the first 256 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: Lady Astronaut Trainees, which was a real program that started 257 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: out as a way to evaluate women's fitness to be 258 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: astronauts in the nineteen sixties. So let's move on to 259 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: the books about the space program. Tell us about your 260 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: Lady Astronaut duality. Sure, so this is basically me kind 261 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: of reimagining um Ray Bradberry sort of space adventures but 262 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: women centered. So it's it's said in that early early 263 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: space program, um and in my case it's in nineteen 264 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: fifty two, so before there was a space program really, 265 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: but I drop an asteroid on the planet, which kicks 266 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: off a space program fast and hard and with an 267 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: imperative to get off the planet, which means colonization, which 268 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: means that women have to be involved. And it's also 269 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: during the middle of the Civil rights era, so uh, 270 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: things progress a little different le um, a little more 271 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: inclusively in in my version of history than they do 272 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: in the real world. So at the very start of 273 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: the book, I think almost on the first page, there's 274 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: a reference to President Dewey, so obviously, that's Thomas Dewey, 275 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: nowadays most famous for having been the subject of the 276 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: Chicago Daily Tribunes wrong headline of Dewey defeats Truman. When 277 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: I first read The Calculating Stars, I sort of interpreted 278 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: this as a nod to readers, just saying, heads up, 279 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: this is a very different universe that we're looking at. 280 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: But your historical note at the end of the book 281 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: makes reference to the fact that you needed to get 282 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: the space race on a faster timeline than it really 283 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: happened in our world. So can you tell me a 284 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: little more about that? Sure, So there's two things to 285 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: know about this. One has to do with past Mary 286 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: making decisions that President Mary has to live with, and 287 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: that is that The Lady Astronaut of Mars, which is 288 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: the novella or novelette that kicked this off, was set 289 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: in an existing story universe that I had written, which 290 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: was based in a the first story, and this is 291 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: called We Interrupt this Broadcast, which contains information that none 292 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: of the characters in this universe will ever know, so 293 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: you don't have to read it. But that story depended 294 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: on punch cards and also on a programming error surrounding 295 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 1: Leap Day and a near past asteroid strike, and that 296 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: led me to nineteen fifty two. And the problem is 297 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: we have no satellites in nineteen fifty two, so I 298 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: went looking for well, why and how would we do that? 299 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: And that led me to having Dewey come into office instead. 300 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: So the thing about Dewey is that he as opposed 301 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: to Truman, is that Dewey was UM very much an 302 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: internationalist UM. He was very interested in collaboration, and he 303 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: was also really against corruption and h and very into efficiency. 304 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: And the being very into efficiency is the key twist here. 305 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: So after World War Two, what happened was that Verner 306 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: von Brown, who had been the head of the nazi 307 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: UM rocketry program, was brought back to the United States 308 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: with a bunch of his rocket scientists and they just 309 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: cooled their heels. They were just not being used at all. 310 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: And a lot of this was because hello, former Nazis, 311 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: well you know, I mean technically Nazis UM, so that 312 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 1: that had a lot to do with why they were 313 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: cooling their heels. There was a lot of effort to 314 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: get a rocket up at this point, and no one 315 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 1: was letting Von Brown and his people do it, and 316 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: everyone was trying to avoid the V Tube four launches 317 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: because because of its military history. My reasoning, and this 318 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: is the kind of reasoning that one does when one 319 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: is writing a short story, which is that it was 320 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: not very well researched, but I think it holds. My 321 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: reasoning is that Dewey would have probably said, you know what, 322 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: this is more efficient. Let's just let this guy and 323 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: his team use technology that we know how it works 324 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, and then they 325 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: can go on and and so I think that it's 326 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: plausible that that we could have gotten I know that 327 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: we could have actually gotten rockets, like with the technology 328 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: that we had available, I am certain that we could 329 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: have gotten rockets and satellites off the ground faster than 330 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: we did. I think that having Dewey in office might 331 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: have made that happen. I don't know for certain, but 332 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: that that was the chain of reasoning that got me there. 333 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: So the women Air Force Service pilots and the women 334 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: computers from the early Space program are both just a 335 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: huge part of these So where did you first learn 336 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: about these women and what made you decide to write 337 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: a book about them? So, again, I mostly assumed that 338 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: they would be there but um. But more specifically, the 339 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: reason that I knew about the women computers was because 340 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: of my dad. My dad is a programmer, UM, and 341 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: he started programming before computer science was a term, UH, 342 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: and he started with punch cards, and he would talk 343 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: about the punch card girls, which is apparently the term 344 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: for them at the time, the punch card girls and 345 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: the women computers, and and so it was just something 346 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: that I was kind of peripherally aware of. And when 347 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: I started looking at who would go into space, because 348 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: I wanted to write, you know, this lady astronaut story 349 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: about this older astronaut, older woman astronaut in an era 350 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: of punch cards, I had to think about, well, what 351 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: what qualifications would she have? Because you would have to 352 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: be extraordinary in order to be able to get up there, 353 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: and what would what would the world look like? But 354 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: specifically what qualifications would you have? And that led me 355 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: to realizing, in order to get her up there in 356 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: a punch card era, that she would have to have 357 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: already been a pilot UM, and that she would also 358 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: have to have been very good in the sciences. And 359 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: then UM mathematics was a natural thing because that was 360 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: where women were kind of dominating. When I started researching 361 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: for the book, the first thing that I hit that 362 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: was really very very useful was the Rise of the 363 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: Rocket Girls by Natalia Holt, which focuses on the women's 364 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: the early role of women in the Space program UM 365 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: and a lot of it is is pre NASA. Most 366 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: of it's focused on the women of JPL, the Jet 367 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: Propulsion Laboratory, but it it's pretty comprehensive in in how 368 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: involved they were. So with that that kind of gave 369 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: me the line into the computers UM. And then also 370 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: again I started looking for you know what, when did 371 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: women start into the space program? And I was again 372 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: aware of wasps kind of peripherally because of just sort 373 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: of some of the stuff that I had learned when 374 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: I was working on ghost Talkers, when I had been 375 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: looking at pilots UM, even though that's World War One, 376 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: the research had made me aware of the wasps while 377 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: I was working on it. But but when I started 378 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: specifically looking at this, I discovered the Mercury Thirteen, which 379 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: were a group of women, many of whom had been wasps, 380 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: who were put through the early astronaut the Mercury Training 381 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: or mercury testing, but not actually entered into the program, 382 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: so that that was kind of the roundabout way that 383 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: I found my way into learning about these folks. Well, 384 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: I had the first lady Astronaut trainees also on my 385 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: list of things to talk to you about, So obviously 386 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to give away too much 387 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: of the plot of your book. But obviously, since it's 388 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: called a Lady Astronaut book, there are lady astronauts, and 389 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: as you might imagine with women in the nineteen fifties, 390 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: some of the things that they're made to do as 391 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: astronaut trainees are kind of degrading. But this was something 392 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: that also happened to the first lady astronaut trainees in 393 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: our world, right, Yeah, so a lot of the things 394 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: that I have the Lady Astronauts go through are things 395 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: that happened in the real world. The incident with the 396 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: Dilbert Dunker in the bikinis is something that I completely fabricated. However, 397 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: there are enough incidences that are parallel to that that 398 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: I am absolutely certain that that's pretty much how it 399 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: would have gone down. The the things that I did 400 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: not make up were things like calling them all astro 401 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: nets UM focusing on their beauty and attractiveness and and 402 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: listing their measurements in newspaper articles. So what ultimately happens 403 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: to these first lady astronaut trainees. So this is a 404 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: this is a really complicated and and and ultimately tragic story. 405 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: Most of them were fine, like they would really have 406 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: enjoyed doing this, but um, but went on with their lives. 407 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: There were two UM, Jackie Cochrane and Jerry Cobb, who 408 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: were very much a team when kind of everything began. 409 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: So Jackie Cochrane established the ninety nine UM well she 410 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: was influential in establishing the ninety nine and and but 411 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: she established the wasps and she was like I had 412 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 1: won all kinds of awards, set multiple record as a pilot, 413 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: as a woman pilot. She was. She was very very 414 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: good and very driven and very ambitious. Jerry Cobb was 415 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: also a really phenomenal pilot, but uh, not so good 416 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: at public speaking. Um. She was literally tongue tied. Her 417 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: Her tongue had um had a connections that had to 418 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: be severed surgically so that she could speak. So she 419 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: was always very shy. But the idea of going into 420 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: space captivated her, and when she was brought in to 421 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 1: do these these tests, she started obsessing about it. So 422 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: what happens is that the women are doing the tests, 423 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: um there comes a test at which they have to 424 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,719 Speaker 1: be sent to a NASA facility, and Jerry Cobb had 425 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: been sent to do it, and they wanted to send 426 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: the rest of the women, and someone asked for permission, 427 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: and it at this point begins to get shut down. 428 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 1: There's a draft of a letter that Lyndon Johnson never 429 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: sent that said let's shut this down, and he never 430 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: sent it. He said, instead, let's let NASA make those decisions, 431 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: but it's very clear from all of the surrounding communication 432 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 1: that he had expressed his displeasure. And the let's let 433 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: NASA decide was you guys are going to decide, but 434 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: you know what answer I want. So then there was 435 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: a protest, They go to Congress, they ultimately get a hearing, 436 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 1: and in this hearing, Jackie Cochrane, who had been pushing 437 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: for women to go into space, completely undercuts the program 438 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: by saying, yet NASA shouldn't invest in this because the 439 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: nation will spend all of this money training these women 440 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: who are just going to leave and go get married. Wow. Right, 441 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: And this was an argument that she had faced, and 442 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: this is what makes it so astonishing. This is an 443 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: argument that she had faced when she was trying to 444 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: establish the WASPS, that people said, there's no point in 445 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: doing this because if you do, these women are just 446 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: going to go and leave and get married. And she 447 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: had argued that that was not fair and prejudicial, and 448 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: and that married men continued doing their jobs and that 449 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: married women should be allowed to as well. So for 450 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: her to turn around them and use that same argument 451 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: to undercut the program, and basically what it came down 452 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: to was that she wanted to be in charge and 453 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: didn't like the way Jerry was kind of getting out 454 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: of control, and and Jackie Cochrane also had very specific 455 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: ideas about propriety and image, and she felt like the 456 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: current crop was, particularly with Jerry cobbs involvement, were beginning 457 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: to be ridiculed, and that if they shut it down 458 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: and then came back later that with her in charge, 459 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: that that things would be different. But it basically just 460 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: ended the program any in any chance of women being 461 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: in chard in the program at that time, and she 462 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,719 Speaker 1: was not the only voice saying things like that, but 463 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 1: there were there were other people who were involved, and 464 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: at this point NASA introduced to the requirement right in 465 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: this era area that that in order to be an 466 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: astronaut you had to have been a test pilot. Now, 467 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: what's interesting about this is that at the same time 468 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: and during the hearings, when they were talking to John 469 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,719 Speaker 1: Glenn about requirements, UM, the women were saying, you know, 470 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 1: the rules have been such that we can't have been 471 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: test pilots, so we should look at equivalent experience because 472 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: most of these women, or many of them, had like 473 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: four times the flight time as any of the existing astronauts. 474 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: And one of the arguments that they put forth was that, 475 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: you know, John Glenn would not have qualified with the 476 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: current or with the existing astronaut requirements because he didn't 477 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: have an advanced degree when he applied. He didn't have 478 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: an advanced degree when he went into space, but that 479 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: had become a requirement, and so they said, you know, 480 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: if you could relax it and look at equivalent experience 481 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: for him, why are you not able to do that 482 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: for women? And Glenn's response was, no, I would not 483 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: have qualified initially. UM. And if if we can find 484 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: any women who are as qualified as the men, you know, 485 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: the brave men who are going into space. Uh, then 486 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: I would welcome them with open arms, but you're not 487 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: going to find them, which again kind of shut things down. 488 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: And then he also said, I'd like to have that 489 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: stricken from the record because I have to go home 490 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: and talk to my wife tonight. Oh so he knew. Yeah, Uh, well, 491 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: I was a bit of an infuriating note to pause on. 492 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: When we come back from the break, we're going to 493 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: continue on with that being for just a bit with 494 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: a discussion of the racial segregation of the Women's Air 495 00:29:54,080 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: Force Service pilots during World War Two. Like we talked 496 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: about earlier in in these books, the Women Air Force 497 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: Service pilots are a huge part of the books. And 498 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: something that comes up that has come up when we've 499 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: talked about the WASP on this podcast before is that 500 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: almost all of the WASP were white. And one of 501 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: the actual historical stories that comes up in these novels 502 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: is that the only black woman who applied was asked 503 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: to withdraw her application because of her race. And that's 504 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: something that comes up in your book. So can you 505 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: talk about that a little as well. So that was 506 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: something that I had run across when I was reading 507 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,719 Speaker 1: about the history of the wasps um and again, knowing 508 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: that people of color, and specifically women of color, get 509 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: just completely erased from history, I very deliberately went looking 510 00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: for them. There was one Native American pilot, two Chinese pilots, 511 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: and UH. And then, as you mentioned the UH, the 512 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: woman who applied and then wasn't allowed it was asked 513 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: to withdraw her application. Jackie Cochrane was the one who 514 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: asked her where to withdraw the application because she felt 515 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: that with and and this is horrifying, but she felt 516 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: that with the UH segregation issues in the United States, 517 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: that if they had a black pilot, that would call 518 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: the entire operation into program. Now that was the UM 519 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: that was the rationale she used. But if you look 520 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: at it, a lot of the other things that she 521 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: said and she was actually just bigoted um and and 522 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: it was just straight up racism couched in the but 523 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: it's the best for the program. You found the name 524 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,239 Speaker 1: of the pilot, which I had gone looking for and 525 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: had not been able to find. UH, So that was 526 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: super exciting. Mildred him Carter. Yeah, her husband was a 527 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: Tuskegee airman. Yeah, yeah, when I was so after you. 528 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,479 Speaker 1: Since that to me, I went and look at and 529 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: was like reading about her and the fact that they 530 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: would they would fly, they would be flying and they 531 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: would do I Love you messages while in flight over field. 532 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: I was just like, that is the sweetest, most romantic 533 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: thing I think I've ever read. Yeah, that's um. I 534 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: I think had you written this book a couple of 535 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: years later, it might have been easier to find her name, 536 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: because it's been in the like the much more recent 537 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: past that she has been recognized as the the woman 538 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: who applied to be a WASP. Um. But yeah, she 539 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: was a pilot. Her husband was a pilot, was a 540 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: Tuskegee airman. I think he is still living or was 541 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: as of a couple of years ago. And it seems 542 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: like they have just together such a beautiful, sweet love story. Um. 543 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: And I don't think there's a quite enough public information 544 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: about her at this point to do a whole podcast 545 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: on her, but the fact that she has sort of 546 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: a little nod uh in the book. Uh. And I 547 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: don't think we've got a two part podcast on the 548 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: WASP on this show. Before we interviewed Dr Katherine Sharp 549 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: Landeck who has done a lot of research on them. 550 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: And we talked about the fact that the WASP were 551 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: all segregated, but I don't think it came up that 552 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: there had been an applicant who was asked to withdraw 553 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,959 Speaker 1: her application. Yeah, it is definitely worth uh reading more 554 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: about that and and that and and the other women 555 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: in the wasps. And I'll also say that reading about 556 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: the early African Americans in aviations and in space history 557 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: is is really interesting. The because I couldn't find, Um, 558 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: Mildred Henman's carter's name, I made up a character to 559 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: be that person and based her surname in the book 560 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: is Coleman, which is a nod to Bessie Coleman. Um, 561 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: do you know about Bessie Coleman. I do you know 562 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: about Bessie Coleman. We have a podcast about her in 563 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: the archive. Excellent. Everyone should go read all about Bessie Coleman, 564 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: because but in short form for our listen all about 565 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: Bessie Coleman. But in short form for for people who 566 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: are listening right now. Uh. She was like, I would 567 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: like to be a pilot, and everyone in the United 568 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,439 Speaker 1: States said, you can't because you're black, and you're a woman, 569 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: and so she said, I will go to France where 570 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: they will teach me to be a pilot, and I 571 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: will teach myself French so that I can go do 572 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: this thing, which is what she did, which is so 573 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: kick ass that I just I love her so much. 574 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 1: Had she been of the right age and still alive, 575 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: I totally would have had her be an astronaut. She 576 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: has some, uh, some parallels to the story of Eugene Bullard, 577 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: who is on the list for an episode of this 578 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: show at some point, and who also has a character 579 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: named after him in your novel. Yes, indeed, thank you 580 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: for catching that. Uh my last question, that my my 581 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: last thing that surprised me to learn it was a 582 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: real thing. When I was reading these books. Again, without 583 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 1: giving away too much plot, uh, there is a prescription 584 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,240 Speaker 1: anti anxiety drug that plays a part in these books. 585 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: It's called Milltown. And I thought that it was just 586 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 1: a thing that you had created for these books until 587 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: my spouse, who is a librarian, did what librarians do 588 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: and looked into it, and I learned that this was, uh, 589 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: this was a real anti anxiety medication, and it was 590 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: as much of a household name in the fifties as 591 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 1: Prozac is has been in more recent years. So can 592 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: you talk about that. Yeah, So Milltown was really kind 593 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: of the first widely prescribed um anxiety drug, and it 594 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: was so popular that, like Milton Borrow joked about changing 595 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: his name to Milltown Burrow. And one of the things 596 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: that I have in the books is saying that you know, 597 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: you you saw the advertisements for Milltown everywhere, including one 598 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: that said we have ice cream and Milltown and that 599 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: was like an actual ad at a real drug store. 600 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: You can find those images. Um, it was just it 601 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: was everywhere, and it was called Mother's Little Helper. Um. 602 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: This was called the the Age of Anxiety is what 603 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: sometimes people called the era which I refer to in 604 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: the books. H And that was already in existence. So 605 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 1: Milltown kind of one of the things that was interesting 606 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 1: about it is that it was the first time, as 607 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: I said that, that there was a widely prescribed drug, 608 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: and it was also the first time that anxiety was 609 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: sort of treated like, um, oh you have a cold, 610 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: you have anxiety, here, take this medication. So Milltown was 611 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: not so much an anti anxiety medication as it was 612 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: a tranquilizer. And what kind of happened to it over 613 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: the course of history is that because it was so 614 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: successful and popular, a lot of other people began trying 615 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: to create their own drugs and and take it over, uh, 616 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,919 Speaker 1: and take over the marketplace, and they did things with 617 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,359 Speaker 1: things that were actually more effective at treating anxiety and 618 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: actually looking at anxiety. But by nineteen fifty six, like 619 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: one in twenty Americans had tried Milltown, it was just 620 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: seen as completely innocuous and totally harmless. And again it 621 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,959 Speaker 1: was the first time that that we had kind of said, 622 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, it's okay to treat this. The flip side 623 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: of this is that because it was so popular and 624 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: because people started using it recreationally and because it was addictive, 625 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: that's when we started to get the pushback that happened 626 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: later of oh, no, you don't want to take any 627 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: medication for your illnesses, for your for your mental health, 628 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,399 Speaker 1: because because it's going to mess you up, it'll make 629 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: you a different person. Uh. And so that's there's this 630 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: this unfortunate pushback that comes later. But at the time 631 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: of the book, Milltown was the thing, and it was 632 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: and it did help people who had anxiety, but it 633 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: was also something that was very easy to be misused. 634 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: So how did you go about researching how this there 635 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: a drug was prescribed and what it was like to 636 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 1: be on it. Uh. Fortunately, there's a really good book 637 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: that's basically just looking at that. Um, I've reade on 638 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 1: the coattails of other people's research. Uh. So the first 639 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: thing that I found was a it was actually a 640 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:45,919 Speaker 1: CBC radio thing on Milltown. Milltown, a game changing drug 641 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: you've probably never heard of, which is is a great 642 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 1: half hour episode that's just looking at Milltown. So in 643 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,839 Speaker 1: addition to the CBC program, there's also this fantastic book 644 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 1: called The Age of Anxiety. A history of America is 645 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: turbulent Affair with Tranquilizers by Andrea Tone And it looks 646 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:11,319 Speaker 1: at the search for the best ones. Uh, it looks 647 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: at the rise of the America's prescription drug culture. Um, 648 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: it looks at, you know, a really complicated relationship with 649 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,720 Speaker 1: tranquilizers and and the fact that it became this billion 650 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: dollar industry. Um. And and actually Milltown was also an 651 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:32,360 Speaker 1: accidental discovery. The guy was looking for another form of penicillin. Oh, 652 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: that's not the same thing at all. No, No, it 653 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,359 Speaker 1: was really one of those whoops. Um. Yeah. And and 654 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: also you know someone else who had fled the nazis um, 655 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: so he was he was looking actually, I guess he 656 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: was looking for a way to to preserve penicillin um. 657 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 1: And then he stumbled on this chemical which was a 658 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: relaxant that eventually led to the drug Milltown Um. But 659 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: he had he had wanted the drug to be classified 660 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 1: as a sedative, but someone had said, um, what's his name. 661 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: His name is Burger, Um, Frank Burger. So he had 662 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 1: wanted to be classified as a sedative, but a friend 663 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 1: convinced him that there were so many sedatives on the 664 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: market and what the world really wanted was tranquility. So 665 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 1: he advertised it as a tranquilizer. That's fascinating. It's also 666 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: very it's very different from how I imagine tranquilizers in 667 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,479 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties working like it seems like in sort 668 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: of sitcom depictions from later on, tranquilizers are things that 669 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: leave you on the couch immobile. Uh. But that's not 670 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 1: what happens at all with the characters in your book, 671 00:40:54,440 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: or regular people going about their days on and whatever 672 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:06,280 Speaker 1: prescription is needed for their their mental health. Yeah. Functionality yeah, 673 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: and and really it was like it was so widely embraced. 674 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,760 Speaker 1: Apparently in Hollywood at some of the big celebrity parties, 675 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,399 Speaker 1: Milltown would be passed around the way you would pass 676 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: around peanuts. And there were there were also miltinis, which 677 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: were Martini's inspired by not just inspired by actually but 678 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: actually combining alcohol and Milltown, which sounds like a really 679 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 1: terrible idea. Yeah, that doesn't sound like a good plan 680 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:43,320 Speaker 1: at all. No, No, that's fascinating. So is there anything 681 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: else that you want to make sure that listeners either 682 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 1: know about your books or no about this world that 683 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: the books have been set in, or even the real 684 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: world analogs to the world that it's that they're set in. 685 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: I would say that one thing when you're reading the 686 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 1: book is that I start every chapter with headline and 687 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: a short news article. And the vast majority of those 688 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: new news articles are completely real. I say completely real. Um, 689 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 1: I have tweaked them to be appropriate for the timeline, 690 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: but the vast majority of them are actually from that era. 691 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: So when I'm talking about riots, those were actually riots 692 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 1: that were occurring in the real world. When I'm talking 693 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: about women's involvement, those were articles from the real world, 694 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: but they they just get left out. And I guess 695 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: that's the thing that the big kind of takeaway but 696 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: I would want people to to take from this is 697 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: that so many people just get left out, which is 698 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 1: you know, the kind of the point of your entire podcast. 699 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 1: But just a reminder, especially for people who are writers, 700 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:57,240 Speaker 1: to to go looking um and to not not get 701 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,720 Speaker 1: stuck in in regurgitating what media has given you, because 702 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: that just reinforces stuff that's wrong. Right. Thank you so 703 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 1: much for being on the show today, Mary, Yeah, my pleasure. 704 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for inviting me. I really enjoy 705 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: your books, and I think a lot of our listeners, 706 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:20,840 Speaker 1: if they are not already familiar, will as well. Thank 707 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,560 Speaker 1: you again to Mary robinettoal for being on the show today. 708 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,359 Speaker 1: Her new books are The Calculating Stars and The Faded Sky. 709 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,279 Speaker 1: The Calculating Stars is already out and The Faded Sky 710 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: is coming out in August one, which is just after 711 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,720 Speaker 1: this episode of our show will publish. These are both 712 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: prequels to her earlier novelette called The Lady Astronaut of Mars, 713 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 1: which won Hugo Award for Best Novelette. Do You have 714 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,640 Speaker 1: a Little listener mail for US Tracy I do. It 715 00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 1: is from Elizabeth and it is about I to be Wells. 716 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: Elizabeth says, I'm a little behind in my podcast, but 717 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 1: was listening to your podcast on I T B Wells 718 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 1: today and just yesterday she was highlighted in the New 719 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: US here in Chicago Land. There's a movement to build 720 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,359 Speaker 1: a monument here in Chicago to be placed in Bronzeville, 721 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,600 Speaker 1: where she lived. As so many women don't have monuments 722 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: dedicated to them, she should be so honored. She has 723 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,760 Speaker 1: a link to an article and then says a quote 724 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: set out to me that I thought the podcast would 725 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,320 Speaker 1: find interesting. Quote. Throughout the country, there are hundreds of 726 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: monuments to the Confederacy. There are fewer than twenty monuments 727 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 1: to black women, said Duster, a writer and lecturer at 728 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: Columbia College in Chicago. She hopes that this will be 729 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 1: the start of a movement toward better representation. It's the 730 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,359 Speaker 1: end of the quote. Elizabeth goes on to say this 731 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,280 Speaker 1: movement is crowdfunded. Although the article says they have the funds, 732 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 1: the website says they do not. Perhaps you can read 733 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 1: this on the podcast and get more people to contribute 734 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:46,840 Speaker 1: the u r L for I to b Wells Monument 735 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 1: dot org based on everything I can find out about 736 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: this project. The primary funding for the initial statue is complete, 737 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,719 Speaker 1: but they're currently working on a round two, which will 738 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: involve some other smaller pieces of artwork near the main 739 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: monument that has been funded. So thank you so much, Elizabeth. 740 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: We got several tweets and emails and Facebook comments about 741 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 1: this over the last couple of weeks, so thank you. 742 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:15,319 Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us about this 743 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,920 Speaker 1: or any other podcast, we're at History Podcasts at how 744 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. We are also on Facebook and 745 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 1: Pinterest and Instagram and Twitter all as missed in History. 746 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,440 Speaker 1: You can come to our website, which is missed in 747 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: History dot com and find a searchable archive of all 748 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:32,880 Speaker 1: the episodes that we have done on the show and 749 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 1: show notes for the episodes Holly and I have done together. 750 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,799 Speaker 1: And you can subscribe to our show on Apple podcasts, 751 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: Google podcasts, and wherever else you get your podcasts. For 752 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how 753 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com.