WEBVTT - #87 - Marcus Hummon - Wrote God Bless The Broken Road + Cowboy Take Me Away + More 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:06.000 I Welcome to episode eight seven Bobby Cast. Thanks to 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:09.959 Express Prose for sponsoring this. Our guest is Marcus Hammond. 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:16.079 Who your songwriter? You are artist, author, a playwright, Like 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:20.080 a lot of things confused until I started digging, I 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:22.279 was like, wow, because what I had known you for 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:24.759 and we're just kind of broad stroke. This at the 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:28.240 beginning was like blessed the Broken Road, working with the 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:32.760 Dixie Chicks, and I think that's probably what most people know, 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:37.600 most people for their biggest, humongous But then once I 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:41.080 started go, wow, this dude wrote plays. Yeah, yeah, I 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:43.839 did a bunch of that for about the last ten 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:48.640 twelve years. And it is funny because sometimes, uh, I 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:50.360 find you know, it's sort of scary as you get 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:53.199 older in the business and in instead of people saying like, hey, 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:54.840 have you written something great? You know, have you written 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:56.280 a new song that you're really are you working with 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:58.760 anybody you really love? They go, hey, do you have 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:02.360 any new plays? And I'm believe it or not in Nashville, 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.720 that's not good news. But yeah, I started. I did 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:08.520 start writing after after doing records. I did a couple 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.320 of records, you know, I did a record on Columbia 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:12.880 and then I did a rock record out of London. 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:17.240 So when you say records, like you actually pursued a 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:19.080 deal like and not a deal, you actually had a 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:20.960 deal like you're gonna be an artist. No, I mean 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.080 the only reason I was here was that I didn't 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:25.880 come here to write songs for anybody, and um I 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:28.679 wanted to. I had, you know, I had like five 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:32.039 record deals signed, you know, five what they used to 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.600 call development deals. And in the in the back in 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:36.959 the day, as they say, in the late eighties and 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.440 into the nineties, of course, the whole industry was different, 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.560 was much larger. The wave of the nineties was you know, 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:45.639 there was like it was as you know, I'm as huge. 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.120 I mean, you know at one time they like twenty 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:52.000 seven labels in town. So you come to town to 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:56.560 be an artist? Yeah, and from well I was. I 0:01:56.600 --> 0:02:00.400 was born in d C. My dad, uh was a 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:02.680 foreign service He was in the Foreign Service. He worked 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:05.720 for called Agency for International Development, so it was the 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.799 economic development side of the US government, on the Embassy 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:12.920 State Department rather and so we you know, I had 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:16.880 a crazy upbring. I was. We lived in Tanzania when 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:19.840 I was a little moved to Nigeria when I was 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:22.799 eleven and twelve. We were in the Philippines right when 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:25.080 the marquess Is came into power and Ferdinand Marcus came 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.639 into power in seventy two or three. Anyway, we're there 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:31.960 three years and then we went During the Carter administration, 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:33.760 my dad switched from man i d. He was a 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:37.240 political appointment and he headed up the Joint Economic Commission 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:39.799 between the U S and Saudi Arabia. So we went 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.440 to live in the most sort of conservative and by 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:46.520 that I mean Islamics conservative part the capital of Saudi Arabia, 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:51.399 Riad And I was sixteen, I was sixteen and then 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:54.840 uh I. In fact, my oldest sister have three sisters. 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:58.520 My oldest sister went on to Colgate University in Upstate, 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.120 New York, and then they didn't want both of us 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:03.480 to go and and I was a tenth grader. And 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.959 in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, they don't allow expatriot 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.560 Americans to go to school. They didn't in the seventies. Anyway, 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:11.480 they don't allow you to go to school there. What 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.640 what ex patriot Americans? But well X an ex patriot, 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.000 but X patriot be somebody from another country living in 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.240 your country, and in this case Americans. You know, there 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:22.119 was of course there were you know, people from everywhere. 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:24.760 You know, Saudi Arabia during that time had all this wealth, 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.239 and you know, they were bringing groups like like j 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.000 Core to join Economic Commission. My dad had it up 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:33.600 where we were bringing in American know how and an 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:37.320 education and you know, really helping out with building you know, highways, 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.120 and the Saudis were you know, trying to use their 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:44.080 wealth to to create development. So that was Dad's area. 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:46.000 I mean, he'd previously been in what we used to 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:47.920 call the third World. Now they don't anymore, they called 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.480 the developing world. I wonder, as a sixteen year old 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:52.360 living in Saudi Arabia, it's gonna be so much different 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:54.600 than a sixteen year living in the States where your 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:57.280 driver's license and yeah, you couldn't drive. Yeah, there was 0:03:57.320 --> 0:03:59.240 none of that. Mr. Women couldn't drive. I mean in 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.240 the seventies, like just recently, just in fact, I believe 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:07.920 it was last week. Actually amazingly, the Saudis um finally 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.680 overturned their law and women can drive. But at that 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:12.720 time women could not drive. And I remember there was 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.520 one woman from the French embassy and she was a 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.640 really interesting woman and friends with my mom and dad. 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.040 And she was like, I don't care. You know, I 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:27.360 am going to I'm going to drive almost okay whatever. 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.680 Like I told you before, John, you can say whatever 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.479 you want. Yeah, I'll probably be a little different than him, 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:37.039 but yeah, I know. She So she drove and and 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:40.560 and she was you know, uh, she was arrested, picked 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.000 up and they arrested her even though she was working 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:44.840 for the French solutely and they got she was out 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:46.719 of the country like twenty four hours. I mean, you know, 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.080 you don't you do not fool around with stuff like that. 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.360 That is like bye bye French lady. And I admired her. 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:56.440 There's no protection, Like, there's no even though she's there 0:04:56.520 --> 0:05:02.240 and she's supposedly and France. Well there there's the protection 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:05.080 that she didn't end up in jail. You know, they 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:07.400 they the embassy was able to get in there and 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:12.560 say okay, like diplomatic immunity, yeah, that didn't happen. Well, 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.480 the only again, like I say, the diplomatic immunity aspect 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.880 of that is she didn't have to you know, sit 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:23.039 in a in a Saudi prison. Well, I I you know, 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:24.880 I don't know, this was a lot of years ago, 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.640 but I remember that I would imagine that's diplomatic privileges. 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:32.159 You get to leave and not come back, you know. Yeah, 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.880 so you're sixteen year old seeing this. Is it normal 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.800 to you or is it like whoa, this is scary 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.760 to me? Yeah. No, it's normal in the sense that 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.799 it's normal, and that I every two years. I remember 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:46.200 leaving two or three years, you know, you have a 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:49.240 post and then you'd go to another country, you know, 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.599 And that was just our life until I was seventeen. 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:54.960 And actually I didn't stay the full two years in 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:59.240 Saudi Um. The first year I tried to take courses 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.560 at school at home because we didn't want to lose 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.160 two kids of the four, you know, like jan flew 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:05.800 back to America and you know, we didn't have cell 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:07.880 phones and back in those days, like you, that's a 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.720 big separation. She was going to college anyway, but they 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.599 didn't want a sixteen year old. Like the kind of 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:15.640 families that I grew up with a lot more European, 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.600 and it was not odd at all to send your 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.560 kid off to boarding school, you know, at an early age. 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.159 Kind of a Harry Potter World, right, Americans, you know, 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:25.880 we don't do that. We don't really do that that much. 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:27.359 I mean some do in New England, you know, you 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:30.320 have the andover choked grouten kind of schools. But that 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:34.799 wasn't I mean, my parents from Midwestern like, they were clannished, 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.520 they were huggers, they were like love, you know, so 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:41.039 all about family. So we finally decided after taking some 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:44.560 courses from the Universe. University of Nebraska had these courses. 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:46.520 They'd send it to folks who were in these kinds 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:49.640 of posts around the world, you know, And I took 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.120 them and they were just by road kind of memory stuff, 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:54.080 and so there was nothing to it. So I had 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:55.640 to choose the school. And the next year I went 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:57.640 to Italy, and so I did go to boarding school. 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:01.200 When I was sixteen turning seventeen, I went to Notre 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:04.840 Dame International, which is a private school run by the 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.400 same folks that run Notre Dame University. And even though 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:10.960 when I'm not Catholic, I went to that school. Is 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.000 a big, beautiful school and it's only ten minutes out 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:16.640 of side of downtown Rome and um, and so I 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.640 spent that you know that that two semesters in it 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:22.960 in Italy. Talked me through this then, just run me 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:24.920 through all the countries that you remember living in up 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.280 until you're eighteen years old. So yeah, so it was 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:29.520 just it was, you know, the US and then Saudia. 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:35.920 Well I think we moved to Tanzania when I was three. 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:37.720 Do you remember the U S And at three? I 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:39.920 had no memories? At three, No, I don't really remember it. 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:41.600 I mean I like to think, you know, because they 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:43.640 say it's like a sign of intelligence if you remember 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:45.240 things early. So I've tried, you know, you try to 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:49.880 dredge it up, like it's like, I bare that's the case, 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:54.120 unless there's trauma. Yeah, maybe that's it. At three, you moved. 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.960 Walk me through it from Yeah. So we lived for 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:59.960 a couple of years in Tanzania. Then we came home 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:03.080 to the Maryland area of the d C. You know, 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:06.400 I always everything Virginia, Maryland. Every says d C. But 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:10.480 we're living in Maryland. And then when I was twelve, 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:14.640 we left for the Philippines and then we lived but 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:18.240 we lived there more than two years, and uh, then 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:21.200 we came back for a summer and my dad got 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:24.920 this big post, this really exciting post in Saudi because 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:27.600 he had to leave the Department State Department. This was 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.640 all under the auspices of the Department of Treasury, and 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:32.559 it was a straight you know, it was a diplomat. 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:37.920 I mean, it was a um an appointment, you know, 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:40.520 from from President Carter, you know, so it was He's 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:45.479 a Democrat and he had worked under primarily Republican administration, 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:47.360 so this is kind of a big deal. And of course, 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:49.840 you know, at that time, President Carter was all about 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.000 if you remember Camp David Accords and manach and began 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:55.600 an onword sadad, and he was trying to create this 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.640 kind of you know, reproachment or whatever between in the 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.000 Middle East. He was trying to bring Middle East peace 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:05.080 and our friends then and really now are the Saudis, 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:07.680 you know, and so Dad, you know, that was a 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:09.680 big job and it was a big chance. But I 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.800 mean it was a wild place to be because you know, 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:15.640 it's it's not fun time. It's not like a party 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:21.920 in riads out here. Maybe now man I we you know, 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:24.200 we lived in you know, you'd be in your we'd 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.600 have you know, on a compound with really super high walls. 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:29.600 I mean, I remember growing up. You know, some of 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:31.200 the places we lived we had guys, you know, we'd 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:32.840 have a guy a guard at the gate with a gun, 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.920 you know, and we always lived in big compounds, you know. 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:38.200 But that was this my childhood. I mean, that's just 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:40.600 all That's what it was like. So how in the 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:42.880 world do you want to be an American music artists 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:45.000 and country? That was always fun when I had a deal, 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:47.079 Like when I was in Columbia, I'd go to the 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.040 radio stations and they'd be like and they'd start in 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.200 about you know, your up your upbringing, and and folks 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.959 would look at you like like what you know, what 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.240 the heck are you what? You know? It's as a 0:09:57.320 --> 0:09:59.360 as a joke, it's I used to say, Yeah, it's 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:01.880 you know, sort of the the perfect upbringing for a 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:05.720 country artist. You know, Um, it gets worse, you know. 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.360 I went to school in New England, and originally, like 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.120 when I started out in school, I wanted to study 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:16.760 Arabic and be it like an Islamic Islamic studies major that, 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.640 you know, And I actually ended up political so I 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.280 finished college and and it was a political science, you know, 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.240 with a with an emphasis at Islamic studies, so you 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:28.840 don't ever. So I actually got called in by the 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.240 record company. I was at Sony and the record president 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:32.880 called me. And after one of these interviews with I 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:36.079 don't know, the Chicago troupe, so there's some big interview 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:37.520 and the and the guy had got kind of in 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:39.920 depth about things, he started to read my bio you like, 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.199 really look at it. And I remember the guy and 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.000 the record president is saying, listen, you know, let's not 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.560 talk about any of that. Like it's not helping you 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.080 at radio at all. Like that's not helping you at 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:56.840 country radio. That's right, that's not helping you. I think, 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:58.679 you know, like when I was on Columbia, I think 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:02.160 the entire state of Texas never played a song of mine. 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.720 And which is funny in a way because actually a 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.920 family like from Texas like I have, I have kind 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:11.800 of a weird connection. I have roots in Texas. But 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:13.839 it meant you know, it meant nothing. I mean, I'm 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:18.240 sure there were other problems, and why because of one 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.440 you're upbringing to your education. Why do you think they were, 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.000 for lack of a better term, black balling you from radio. 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:26.880 I think I was. I think it's it's funny now 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:30.679 it's ironic now given um what again, these are all 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.840 relative terms to what people talk about, what's country and 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:34.439 what's not. I mean, you know, I got I got 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:36.800 to Nashville in eighties six, and I mean this this 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.040 the discussion we have today about broke county, broke country 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:44.600 versus pop country, versus judicial versus what I'm listen, that's 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:48.960 been going on NonStop since. I mean, I've seen generations 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:52.360 of these ideas people battling and talking about. So it's 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.640 common that people are fighting about what's country. Yeah, we 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.080 are more obsessed. I mean, I'm trying to think. The 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.520 closest thing I've ever seeing to our obsession with what 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:05.080 our identity is is like jazz, you know, you like 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.439 sometimes you talk to jazz guys and that you'll say, oh, 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.160 you know, I really like Jamie Column or something, and 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.200 they look at you like you you just spat on 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:14.480 their you know, their mom or something. I mean, people 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:18.440 get really wired about their identities in different in different genres, 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.000 but weird, weird in the country. I mean it's kind 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:22.640 of charming in a in a in a way, we're 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.480 just obsessed with it. You know, people are always people 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.960 talk about it all the time. It's funny to bring 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.000 up the jazz comparison too, because for me and I'm 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:35.120 not a huge fan of dance music, but dance, trance, house, 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.200 dark trance, they do the same thing in their world. 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.360 They fight about and it's a very small difference between 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:45.360 one and the other. But to them it's the world, 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:47.760 at least to those who have an opinion or those 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:49.640 who want to have a big boys, it's like here, 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:53.640 if I have to hear what's country and what isn't again, 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:56.679 people fight me about it. Well, and I got this 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:58.600 thing too. I got a bound to pick because I 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:01.160 live in kind of multiple camp you know. I mean, 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:04.000 I like, I'm a guitar player, and I played on 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:07.200 records on my stuff. I'm a piano player. I'm really 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.640 a roots based guy, and I played banjo. I love 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:14.640 to play banjo. I love mandolin. Um, I don't do tracks. 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:16.440 I don't know how. I wish I did, I don't 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:18.920 know how. And so and I'm kind of too old 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:20.840 a dog to, you know, to teach a new trick. 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:26.079 And I remember being told to your earlier question. I 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:28.360 think it was the perception was, well, he's not really 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.120 country enough, and that's you know, that's kind of the 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:32.559 at the end of the day that when I look 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.400 back and I think, well, you know, I had a 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:37.800 number of songs on that record that went on to 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:39.160 be one of them went on to the song of 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.520 the year in country. You're talking about Blessed Broken Road. 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.959 I mean it was the first piano recording of it. Yeah, 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:51.960 this is cut. Yeah, long lost Dream? Let me too? 0:13:52.880 --> 0:14:06.640 You that? So did you put this out as a single? 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.480 Where were you when I needed I've been slamming it. 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.760 I would have been yelling at my own people. I 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.400 got it, So you cut the song? Now we cut it. 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.680 I'll tell you. It was just the usual thing. Look, 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.480 I went in there's a there's a saying in Nashville. 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:23.960 Or maybe maybe I made it up. I don't know 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.600 if if it's good, it's probably something I heard, but 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:28.800 it was. You know, you get a record deal when 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.800 you're when your friends become record presents, and I had, 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:33.840 you know, I just kept signing. Record deal was my 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:39.040 first record deal was on Mary Tyler Moore Records, And 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:43.480 that's correct. And I was two weeks or two weeks 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:48.280 away from my first single being released and the company imploded. 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:50.520 But you gotta we gotta take a step back. Mary 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.720 Tyler Moore record like you're gonna make it after all? Right, 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.240 So there wasn't Mary Tyler Moore Records. Did she own it? Well, 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.240 her corporation did. And they had great stuf off. I 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:02.640 mean they had let me think now, they had Judy 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.640 Rodman who had been who had been um maybe was 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:11.320 the reigning and female vocalists of the year in country. 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.920 They had Paul Overstreet who subsequently went on, you know, 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.760 not only be one of the greatest writers in national history, 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:22.160 but also had a you know, really uh significant artist's career. 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:28.280 They had um gosh, they owned the publishing on Radney 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.840 Foster and Bill Lloyd's what became the Faster and Louder, 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:37.240 that famous record. The the receptionist was Tricia Yearwood. And no, 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:38.960 I'm not kidding, and that I remember, you know, she 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.240 was so great and you know, she was really nice 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:43.640 and beautiful. And then somebody said to me this is 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.040 you know, they said, well, you you know you ought 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:48.600 to hear you ought to hear her sing the receptionist, 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:55.400 I'm not kidding where you were signed. That's correct, yes, 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:57.640 and that's right. And the and I may tell you 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:00.280 how I got signed to because I had already you know, 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:02.600 I've gotten into town and I had my first single, 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:07.040 my first cuts. My first single was a song by 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:10.840 Michael Martin Murphy called Pilgrims on the Way and that 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:13.120 went to I don't know, it didn't go that high, 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:17.600 but it broke the top forty and and partly because 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:19.760 of that, and then I got signed. But the way 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:21.880 I got signed is the other guy that there was, 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:24.280 the guy that was ahead of an r MTM Records 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.200 MTMS what was called was a guy named Tommy West 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.320 who produced Bill Crochy who you know that was more 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.440 like the sound that I had, bad bad was listening 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:38.320 bad badly? Roy Brown, Uh, you don't um to read 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:44.240 your mind? What a oh my god? Yeah yeah, So 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.200 I mean like, and that was your sound? You feel 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:48.520 like that was more was definitely more my sound. In fact, 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:50.520 that was you know the I know that was the 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:53.680 rap on me. When I had a country deal was like, man, 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:57.040 he sees like a folk rock sort of you know, 0:16:57.520 --> 0:16:58.920 I don't know, I don't know what they thought, but 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.240 I get it. I to get it. I get it 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.720 in a way. But for Tommy, I literally had to 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:05.239 stand there I didn't play in a club. I mean 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:09.639 I was playing in clubs. But I remember to audition 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:14.080 for Tommy West and he he had a room and 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:15.640 I just came into his looking room and he sat 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.960 on a couch and he just said, you know, He's like, 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.680 go ahead, and I played ten songs. I like, played 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:23.240 an album. I just stood there right in front of 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:26.920 just played an album. And he's watching you watching because 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.119 you hear like the people that auditioned for SNL and 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.240 they're up on stage and there are three people watching 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:34.360 and they don't really make a lot of movement. That's 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.119 what it was like. Yeah, it was poker facing and 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.159 he just sat there and you know, and I'm not 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.119 saying it was creepy, because I really admire him, and 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:45.399 he was and and look he got he listened to 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:49.080 the whole thing. He goes, okay, let's do it. Let's 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.280 do it. And you know, in a way we started 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.760 to go And then it just happens that the timing 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.760 of all this was I got married right about that 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:01.679 same time to be cut and and the thing was 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.320 at the also at the same time that it was 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:06.080 so to the end of the run of Pilgrims On 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:08.800 the Way. So I remember on my honeymoon the first 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:10.840 time and the only time I ever heard Pilgrims on 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.600 the Way on the radio. We were down at like 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:15.440 you know, destoned of course, you know, because we don't 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.240 have any money, so were like destin and we're out 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.080 on the beach and the loud speakers and they're playing 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:22.199 that Pilgrims on the Way, which was a percent or two. 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.719 It was, you know, it was like some weird and 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:27.600 I was a piano and it was like the eighties, 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:29.520 so I had to have a saxophone on it. I mean, 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:31.600 it was really weird song. And when it was like 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.160 my breakthrough, that was it seemed like I thought then 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:36.119 I thought, that's it, you know, oh my god, and 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:38.119 it sounded more like a Hornsby song. And if you 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:39.920 listen to it now, if you ever check that out. 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.840 Um anyway, So that was and I remember right the 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:47.320 day I got back from my honeymoon, I went to 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.240 Mary Tyler Moore, which is where Paul Worley studios now 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:54.160 that building and uh and used to the old chapel building. 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:56.600 And I went over there and I walked in the 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:01.320 door and they said, um, there's been illegal like there 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:03.439 was a big premise. I think there was a criminal 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.000 I think there was I don't want to go into 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.880 because I don't know the specifics, but they Marry Tyler 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:11.760 and Company pulled the plug on it. And so in 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.240 a way, it's one of the saddest things for for 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:16.880 a lot of people because they got out just when 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.480 the wave hit, like one of these one of the 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.680 worst business moves ever when you think about you know nine, 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:26.800 you've got something, and they really had something going on. 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:28.879 I mean, there was an article in the Tennessee and 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.080 a few months ago talking about the guys that ran 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:34.919 that company, Henry Hurt and Tommy West and others, and 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:37.120 they're saying, man that you know, it was a stacked 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:42.199 independent label, and they um, they pulled the plug. So 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.840 you're on it. And when you did Broken Road, that 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.920 was on ANTM. Now so Broken Run comes, you know, Yes, 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.160 I mean, listen, my situation is was so bad. It's 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.919 funny that. I mean, I kept getting signed. I mean 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:58.159 I got signed Timmy Blass, Sigmy Joe Galani signed me. 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:02.000 Um U. I don't know. There was another label, an 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:03.840 e M I label that signed me to a kind 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.840 of a rock deal. Uh, Joe Glani was gonna move 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:08.720 me at one point. At one point it was set 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:10.399 up that I was going to work with the folks 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:14.280 from Mellancamps in Indiana. It sounds like people were wanting 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:18.720 to shift you over to a bit of that sound. Yeah, 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.199 they're putting you with Mellancamp and they had well, I 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:23.400 thought that was gonna be great. And then um, when 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:25.560 Glanni it was right when Glanni got moved over to 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.800 New York to take over everything for our say, and 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:30.320 then actually Josh Leo took over and he dropped me, 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:32.840 and but Glani at one point from New York was 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:34.840 going to move me to Indiana and let me do. 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:37.320 There was a song I had that became an Alabama cut, 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.560 but it was called the Cheap Seats. Yeah, so that 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:42.280 was a big I had a band called the Pretty 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:45.080 Red Wing and I was I mean, my my big 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:48.000 thing was I played live, I played on album like 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:49.600 I know that song it was a single, it was. 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:51.800 It didn't go number one or anything like that, but 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.080 it went and you know, for years they played it. 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:56.040 It was a big song in baseball because it's about 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:58.760 minor league. That's that's that was such a big baseball 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:01.200 in seven inning st atch in a lot of places. 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:03.320 For for quite a while, that was the song. I 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:07.399 mean then you know, Fogerty has you know, center field, 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:11.320 but a lot of places to be like the cheap seat. Yeah. God. 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:13.439 And we used to play that in my band and 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:15.240 we'd play the fire out of you know, we'd rock 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:18.639 it real hard. Um. And I really thankful that Alabama 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:20.560 did it because it was a significant break for me 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:23.760 in what way. Well, for one thing, it was actually 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:26.119 unequivocably even though it to me it was kind of 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:29.200 like a folky thing, but really it was a country 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:32.000 song by alab you know. And if it's one thing, 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.200 you know, if you get uh, Michael Martin Murphy, for example, 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:38.000 walk the line is his whole career. Now he just 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:41.280 cowboy songs, right, cowboy poetry and all that, but he 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:43.720 was also a pop pop singer. And one of the 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:45.800 first songs that I ever learned as a guitar player 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:48.639 was drawn Hima's Cadillac. And that's not really a country 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:51.200 song that really belongs more to the folk rock field. 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:53.439 But then he had a country career, so he was 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:55.680 like walking that line, same line that I would walk, 0:21:56.080 --> 0:22:01.640 only unsuccessfully. Alabama's Alabama. They are like that it gets 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:03.880 nor more country than Alabama. They get whatever they sing 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.480 is now the country is on. Well yeah, now it's 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:10.719 like it's like so country, you know, it's it truly 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:14.399 feels almost like another time songs like hot Cotton, you know, 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:18.120 like that's amazing stuff. So that was for me, that 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:20.360 was a little bit. I mean, that's not the breakthrough. 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:25.200 The breakthrough for me was why not not only love that? That? 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:27.520 That's where why I got to stand town. Let me 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:29.400 do it commercially. I don't even stop you, but Mike's 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:31.760 holding a commercial affair. Let me talk about Express pros. 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:34.360 So for just one corporate job, only four to six 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.080 people will get an interview for every two hundred fifty 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:40.280 resumes received. Those aren't good odds you're talking about. I mean, 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:42.919 your shot of even getting an interview aren't good, much 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:44.800 less get in the job. The fact is you need 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:47.800 a real person advocating to a real employer that this 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:49.240 is a real job, and you're a real person, you 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:51.960 do a really good job. Right. That's where Express Employment 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.520 Professionals comes in. Express is your local resource to help 0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:58.480 you get a new job. Express is more than Oh 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:00.440 the dog jump right in the middle of my Express 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:04.359 A little spot here, Dusty. Express has more than eighteen 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:06.720 thousand jobs that need to be filled right now. Find 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:09.399 your nearest office at Express pros dot com and Express 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:12.320 never charges a job secret to help find employment. Your 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:15.440 locally owned Express office can help you connect with jobs 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:17.879 in the community. Express pros dot com. How do you 0:23:17.920 --> 0:23:20.159 find jobs? If you're looking for a manufacturing job, accounting job, 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:24.080 customer service, sales distribution, I keep going on you name it. 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:27.119 Visit the nearest Express office today and speak with hiring 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:30.959 professionals connected to the available jobs in your community. Need 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:34.600 a job, Visit Express pros dot com today to find 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:37.280 the location nearest to you. Okay, So you're talking about 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:39.080 the wine on As song. Yeah all right, So tell 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:43.159 me about that and why that's your big break. Um, well, 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:47.000 it's my big break because it went it went number one, 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:49.439 and um it didn't go number one on Billboard. But 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:52.840 back in the day, you know, build b my er 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:54.680 Ask would throw you a party and give you a 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:57.560 one of those cups. You get a cup if it 0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:00.000 was on number one on either UR and R or 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:03.120 Billboard records. Yetta, Yetta, take a step back for a second. 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:05.600 So now you're writing these songs and getting breaks, but 0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:09.920 are you done pursuing the artist? No? No, no, gosh no, no, 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:13.080 the whole time I'm and in fact I got one. 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:17.919 So going back when MTM imploded, my publishing deal was 0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:20.640 then tied in. I'd come from a different group, nineteen 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:26.239 Avenue or Lorenz Creative Services, which is its own wild thing, 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:28.879 because that's kind of where Randy Travis broke out with it. 0:24:30.080 --> 0:24:32.720 You know, arguably the record which kicked off the wave, 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:36.160 the you know, the new Traditionalist movement was a lot 0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:38.800 of people have pointed to the album Storms of Life 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:42.000 by Randy Travis and it comes at the same time 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:44.640 as Steve Earle and Love It and Nancy Griffith and 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:47.240 this thing Dwight Yoakum. They call it the New Traditionalist movement. 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:49.479 So I came to town right when that was happening. 0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:52.399 The company that signed me, this is just before the 0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:57.639 MTM thing, was a primarily Christian organization called Lorenz Creative 0:24:57.640 --> 0:25:00.800 Services and had thing called nineteen nineteen Reproductions. I think 0:25:00.800 --> 0:25:04.239 it was so Charlie Monks running the Countryside and he 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:07.720 is the manager of at that time Randy Travis when 0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:10.600 that record goes down. So that was happening right where 0:25:10.680 --> 0:25:13.439 I get signed and when I when I first come 0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:16.440 to Nashville, so I get this massive education on a 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:21.520 not just country but like serious roots kind of and 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:24.120 and really I looked to it like, hey, man, if 0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:27.200 I love it, Nancy Griffith and Steve Earle have deals. 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:30.280 Someday I could have a deal because I live somewhere 0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:34.840 somewhere in that land. I'm yeah, was there you mentioned 0:25:34.920 --> 0:25:37.800 Randy Travis being the launching point because that record was 0:25:37.880 --> 0:25:40.040 so big you kind of put that sound out. Now, 0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:41.840 he probably wasn't the first to do it, but his 0:25:42.000 --> 0:25:43.840 was so big that it made the movement happen, the 0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:46.280 success of it, I think. So was there an argument 0:25:46.280 --> 0:25:49.359 it's okay, this isn't country, Like was that was Randy Travis? 0:25:49.440 --> 0:25:51.800 It was the other way around, So okay, Yeah, so 0:25:51.840 --> 0:25:53.320 it's it's you know what it's like, I'll give you 0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:57.400 the to me, I'll give you an analogy. Um, Nirvana, 0:25:57.520 --> 0:25:59.199 I know this is really weird, like what you know, 0:25:59.200 --> 0:26:01.600 how is this in ans? But like there were a 0:26:01.800 --> 0:26:07.760 lot of you know, hair bands and spandex and and exactly, 0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:12.720 and then Cobain and like to me to me overnight 0:26:12.840 --> 0:26:15.920 for people go like, well, what hell, well, that's rock 0:26:16.040 --> 0:26:18.440 listen that guy that's like like that's the end of 0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:20.840 the world. I mean he's rocking like and sure enough 0:26:21.520 --> 0:26:24.120 he killed I mean like he he had that thing 0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:26.359 and the grunge thing comes and you just go, mother 0:26:26.440 --> 0:26:31.160 of God, what okay? You know, So Randy Travis did 0:26:31.200 --> 0:26:37.880 that to or showed you what country really would bones 0:26:38.240 --> 0:26:41.919 uming things. I remember going like exhuming, but yeah, not 0:26:41.960 --> 0:26:43.720 only that, but then you've got you know, then you've 0:26:43.760 --> 0:26:46.879 got buck Owen's would span you know, like with leather 0:26:47.000 --> 0:26:51.399 pants and and punk sensibility, Dwight Yoakum which was guitars 0:26:51.520 --> 0:26:53.760 cattle it, and then you have Love at the five 0:26:53.800 --> 0:26:56.199 and dime. Nasy Griffith wrote it, but Kathy Mattea, you know, 0:26:56.280 --> 0:26:58.639 so that's happening. And then Steve Earl sounds kind of 0:26:58.680 --> 0:27:02.359 like like Springsteen. You grew up in a holler, so 0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:06.120 I don't know. It was so great and intense and 0:27:06.320 --> 0:27:08.720 like when I tell young writers, you know, if you'd 0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:12.359 been here in like right then on the wave it 0:27:12.480 --> 0:27:16.679 this is pre garth by the way, Like it was unbelievable. 0:27:16.800 --> 0:27:19.600 It was so exciting because you really felt like like 0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:22.080 the music coming out of Nashville that time, I mean 0:27:22.200 --> 0:27:26.600 everybody was fired up. You talk about Dwight Yoakom. For me, 0:27:26.880 --> 0:27:29.920 I loved Yokom, still loved k I remember watching music 0:27:29.960 --> 0:27:32.800 videos being like, I don't even know, Like I was 0:27:32.880 --> 0:27:35.080 raised with the country music part of my life with 0:27:35.119 --> 0:27:39.080 my grandma, and it was an old school country from Arkansas, Kansas. 0:27:39.240 --> 0:27:43.919 So anybody so first of all, Johnny Cash was Johnny Cash. Uh. 0:27:44.320 --> 0:27:48.199 Anybody with an Arkansas pedigree was the biggest to us. 0:27:49.160 --> 0:27:53.680 And so I would see do I Yoko my TV? 0:27:54.680 --> 0:27:58.040 And like, what is happening? Like it's a rock star 0:27:58.160 --> 0:28:02.800 with the cowboy hat who's dancing? Like yeah, none of 0:28:02.800 --> 0:28:05.120 the things matched and that's what made it so cool. 0:28:05.240 --> 0:28:07.479 And then the guitar playing like the electric you know 0:28:07.520 --> 0:28:10.880 that What was it as to why Yokam was happening? 0:28:11.200 --> 0:28:14.600 What did the industry think of him? Um? I think 0:28:14.640 --> 0:28:20.280 that they were, you know, I think they embraced you know, 0:28:20.760 --> 0:28:23.480 in the early in the late eighties and early nineties. 0:28:23.560 --> 0:28:27.000 One of the things that was so you know, particularly 0:28:27.040 --> 0:28:32.119 before deregulation, and um, I think what happened in Nashville 0:28:32.160 --> 0:28:35.200 the I think what people will write about the explosion 0:28:35.400 --> 0:28:38.000 that was Nashville and particularly in the I mean the 0:28:38.080 --> 0:28:40.320 nineties in a way if you look at it broadly speaking, 0:28:41.080 --> 0:28:44.160 when you know it goes from in the mid eighties, 0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:47.400 the perception of countries. I think it's about the size 0:28:47.400 --> 0:28:49.680 of I don't know, jazz again, would I go back 0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:52.880 to like, you know, some more niche kind of thing, right, 0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:56.959 and then you know, country music it's just taken over 0:28:57.040 --> 0:29:00.959 the world, right. And I think when thing like that happens, 0:29:01.000 --> 0:29:03.840 it's almost like a religious movement. It requires a car 0:29:04.360 --> 0:29:08.200 some charismatic elements after then explode and then it creates waves, 0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:12.960 and then concentric waves and more waves, and eventually you 0:29:13.080 --> 0:29:16.360 have the you know, things slowed down and and a 0:29:16.360 --> 0:29:19.240 lot of things that are beautiful about a movement change 0:29:19.280 --> 0:29:22.040 and then gets you know, structured and stratified. But I 0:29:22.080 --> 0:29:24.160 think what happened was that people were allowed to be 0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:28.360 many things that the diversity of country music if you look, 0:29:28.600 --> 0:29:32.240 you know, into the early nineties, is extraordinary because you 0:29:32.360 --> 0:29:35.239 have Yes, Randy Travis, you have Verned Gosden, you know, 0:29:35.280 --> 0:29:39.120 like you want to talk about you know, damn country, 0:29:39.200 --> 0:29:41.640 you know, like wow, But then you'd have. You know, 0:29:41.800 --> 0:29:44.120 you'd have Vince Skill coming up, and you know, and 0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:46.880 then the new Grass Revival and there are things that 0:29:46.920 --> 0:29:49.400 were percolating from a blue grass standpoint that were really 0:29:49.400 --> 0:29:52.960 getting really and we're really creative and moving. Then the 0:29:53.000 --> 0:29:55.920 emergence of the mega stars, the rock stars led by 0:29:56.120 --> 0:29:58.720 you know, Garth, who I don't know outsells the Beatles 0:29:58.720 --> 0:30:01.280 in eight years or whatever. Know it's will that ever, 0:30:01.360 --> 0:30:03.560 anything like that ever happened again in country music. I 0:30:03.560 --> 0:30:06.720 don't know how it'll. It'll take a massive paradigm shift. 0:30:07.800 --> 0:30:10.280 But you know, you think about all of that, and 0:30:10.280 --> 0:30:13.160 then the folkies, you had how catch him, You had 0:30:13.200 --> 0:30:16.480 Mary Chapin Carpenter winning you know female Vocus of the 0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:19.479 Year of ninety three or whatever it was. You had, uh, 0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:23.000 you know, all of these things lived and they lived 0:30:23.080 --> 0:30:28.600 together and they profited together. So and pop country then 0:30:28.600 --> 0:30:31.400 emerged too in a different way Shania Twain. You know, 0:30:31.400 --> 0:30:33.680 like that's like what happened with that, Like when it 0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:36.400 would take over, it would take over, and as the 0:30:36.520 --> 0:30:39.440 water rose, all the ships went up with it. That's yeah. 0:30:39.480 --> 0:30:41.760 I mean I think it was like the big big boat, 0:30:41.800 --> 0:30:43.760 as they say, you know, it could carry a lot 0:30:43.840 --> 0:30:47.440 of things, and it really to me, it doesn't change 0:30:47.520 --> 0:30:50.840 until the Chicks, when the when the you know, when 0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:53.360 the when it all goes down with the President and 0:30:53.440 --> 0:30:56.000 the Chicks. To me, that was the beginning of the 0:30:56.240 --> 0:30:59.000 of a of a kind of a It was sort 0:30:59.040 --> 0:31:03.080 of to me where we began to stop allowing things 0:31:03.080 --> 0:31:07.160 to sort of expand and remain extraordinarily vital and diverse, 0:31:07.200 --> 0:31:10.680 which is healthy. It's like a democracy. It's like, it's 0:31:10.720 --> 0:31:12.840 really better when we have a lot of ideas from 0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:15.960 a multiplicity of this is I mean, this is just 0:31:16.040 --> 0:31:19.080 my I'm just I'm just talking off the cuff, you know, 0:31:19.120 --> 0:31:23.960 on trying to to make music theory or music popular 0:31:24.040 --> 0:31:28.320 music theory coincide with some ideas about culture and politics. 0:31:28.360 --> 0:31:31.120 But I think you know, the many is is more 0:31:31.160 --> 0:31:34.320 powerful than the dominant few. Do you feel like now 0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:38.560 with the landscape and you have artists not even sonically 0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:48.200 but philosophically that have the brothers Marin Although they do 0:31:48.360 --> 0:31:53.040 sound slightly different than what's considered traditional, they aren't in 0:31:53.080 --> 0:31:56.080 that hey, we just fall into the mold and believe 0:31:56.080 --> 0:31:59.120 what everybody in countries starting to believe. Do you feel 0:31:59.120 --> 0:32:02.360 like that type of thing is what it was happening 0:32:02.400 --> 0:32:04.720 back then too. He started to see it again a 0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:08.560 bit with some of these again, as you're describing all 0:32:08.640 --> 0:32:12.400 these people in this multicultural movement. Yeah, and I'm right 0:32:12.440 --> 0:32:14.800 in the middle of it here. I'm starting to finally 0:32:14.840 --> 0:32:19.080 see it again with people having voices and ideas and 0:32:19.120 --> 0:32:23.720 differences and staying the same but being different, because it 0:32:23.800 --> 0:32:28.880 sounds like as you're describing events and as you're describing people, 0:32:28.960 --> 0:32:31.520 like we talked about Dwight Yoakum, he wasn't. I mean, 0:32:31.600 --> 0:32:35.520 he's started California. Yeah. But when I was an artist, 0:32:35.600 --> 0:32:38.840 I met by Collens, you know, and and he was 0:32:38.880 --> 0:32:41.200 really nice to me. Um, you know, he played my 0:32:41.240 --> 0:32:45.440 record and he was just you know, he and anyway, 0:32:45.440 --> 0:32:47.160 I did a little bit of, you know, research on 0:32:47.360 --> 0:32:49.320 just because I didn't grow up listening to about Ohens 0:32:49.320 --> 0:32:51.080 a man, I didn't. I mean I wish when I 0:32:51.120 --> 0:32:52.800 was that, believe me, when I was at a country radio, 0:32:52.800 --> 0:32:55.360 I wish I had all kinds of records in my background, 0:32:55.400 --> 0:32:58.240 But you know, it wasn't. The only country stuff that 0:32:58.320 --> 0:33:03.120 I really heard growing up. Was my dad loved Johnny Cash, 0:33:03.240 --> 0:33:04.840 and I know that there's a period of time when 0:33:04.880 --> 0:33:07.160 he wasn't considered country, and there was all that going on, 0:33:07.640 --> 0:33:10.160 which is again you talk about the cycles and now 0:33:10.280 --> 0:33:15.640 you saw like again with me and my grandma, it 0:33:15.720 --> 0:33:18.400 was the gospel stuff too. It was Johnny, but I 0:33:18.440 --> 0:33:20.720 remember her telling me that she went to see a 0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:23.080 cash show and he played a lot in Arkansas, especially early, 0:33:23.400 --> 0:33:25.960 and there are people pickinging out front because this wasn't 0:33:26.000 --> 0:33:29.160 that's not country, and like the person that we hold 0:33:29.800 --> 0:33:34.400 as the most screw yes is wasn't. They were so 0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:36.880 angry that that wasn't a country music show? So why 0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:39.680 are you calling the country music show? Like? That's the 0:33:39.720 --> 0:33:42.080 same thing when I say, brothers, everything is a cycle. 0:33:42.200 --> 0:33:44.959 Everything's how we are. That's literally, that's just we like 0:33:45.000 --> 0:33:47.120 we're like eating or young or something, you know, like 0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:50.640 we're really we're funny. It's funny. It's vibrant and powerful 0:33:50.840 --> 0:33:52.920 and funny and then kind of sad sometimes all the 0:33:53.240 --> 0:33:54.680 like I did a show. I won't say who was 0:33:54.720 --> 0:33:58.120 the other night, but I did a show and you know, um, 0:33:58.160 --> 0:34:01.080 I mean ironically when I play now, I sound like 0:34:01.800 --> 0:34:07.720 I think people think I'm as you know, I've literally 0:34:07.720 --> 0:34:09.520 had people come up to me and say, hey man, 0:34:09.560 --> 0:34:11.719 thanks a lot for keeping a country thank you. And 0:34:11.760 --> 0:34:13.960 I think that's you know, because I play Cowboy, Take 0:34:14.000 --> 0:34:16.400 Me Away, and then the way I play Born to 0:34:16.480 --> 0:34:19.880 Fly and stuff like that, you know, now that's really 0:34:19.960 --> 0:34:23.279 country sounding. And then um, and then I always had 0:34:23.280 --> 0:34:26.000 a gospel thing in me anyway. That's just that that 0:34:26.120 --> 0:34:28.560 actually helped me stay in Nashville because you know, that 0:34:28.640 --> 0:34:30.880 was sort of genuine. I did grow up singing in church, 0:34:31.239 --> 0:34:33.160 even though it wasn't evangelical or this or that. But 0:34:33.200 --> 0:34:35.239 I mean, like I still I sang in church my 0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:38.680 whole life, and I like to sing in churches to this. 0:34:38.800 --> 0:34:41.040 You know, it's a big part of my life too. Um. 0:34:41.080 --> 0:34:42.799 Even that though was sort of on the wrong side 0:34:42.800 --> 0:34:46.600 of it culturally, but nonetheless I did have that. Um. 0:34:47.520 --> 0:34:50.560 But oh God, whilst the trying of thought, I got 0:34:50.600 --> 0:34:53.160 thinking about the gospel and you were playing with somebody, 0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:58.280 and I think this person you being country, you sounding country, 0:34:58.520 --> 0:35:00.879 that was your thing that people are like, hey, yeah, yeah, 0:35:00.960 --> 0:35:02.880 that's right, I do remember now. Yet so I'm playing 0:35:02.880 --> 0:35:04.680 with this guy, we're like we're down in like a 0:35:05.760 --> 0:35:08.239 like it was during one of the like a cmf 0:35:08.360 --> 0:35:12.520 cmafest thing. And I play so many writers things now 0:35:12.520 --> 0:35:14.319 that I can't even remember while, but I remember this 0:35:14.440 --> 0:35:17.600 night because it was recent. Um it's like truth, I 0:35:17.600 --> 0:35:19.560 don't know three or four months ago. In anyway, this 0:35:19.600 --> 0:35:25.200 particular writer is very successful writer, and he's very country. 0:35:25.400 --> 0:35:27.480 And he got up there and he said, and he 0:35:27.520 --> 0:35:30.120 says to the audience and audience he's like, I'm just 0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:31.960 glad he said that, says, I tell you what, I'm 0:35:32.000 --> 0:35:35.160 not gonna play any goddamn Sam Hunt record. He says, 0:35:35.200 --> 0:35:37.440 I'd like anything, as long as not a goddamn in 0:35:37.520 --> 0:35:41.840 pardon me for like Sam Hunt. And I'm like, I'm thinking, 0:35:42.560 --> 0:35:45.960 what the hell do you care? First of all, Sam 0:35:46.080 --> 0:35:50.240 Hunt is unless unless you're just deaf, dumb and blind 0:35:50.400 --> 0:35:54.000 like that guy has lots of talent. I'm honestly, I 0:35:54.040 --> 0:35:57.640 mean I can't. I can't write that stuff. I mean 0:35:57.960 --> 0:35:59.640 i'd like to. I mean, I'd love to sit in 0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:01.160 the room with I've heard, by the way, from other 0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:04.360 writers that he's just an outstanding writer. And he's and 0:36:04.400 --> 0:36:06.600 he's even kind of old school, meaning he doesn't everything 0:36:06.600 --> 0:36:08.359 doesn't have to be done in two hours. Oh he's 0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:14.279 notoriously slow on purpose. Yeah, we'll see. That's the generation. Look, 0:36:14.320 --> 0:36:17.359 I came up in the generation where you know, you 0:36:17.080 --> 0:36:19.040 you would sit around and talk about where to put 0:36:19.040 --> 0:36:21.600 a comma so that the page would look right, you know, 0:36:21.640 --> 0:36:24.440 like it wasn't. So there's there's so many things that 0:36:24.480 --> 0:36:29.480 have changed, But the larger point for me was, Okay, 0:36:29.880 --> 0:36:32.640 let's talk authenticity. If you if everybody wants to talk 0:36:32.680 --> 0:36:36.040 about authenticity, let's take a moment and just step back 0:36:36.080 --> 0:36:39.960 for a second. Imagine you grow up in your you 0:36:40.080 --> 0:36:43.800 grow up in America, in your in in the nineties, 0:36:43.920 --> 0:36:47.319 your teens, your early teens are in the nineties. Let's 0:36:47.400 --> 0:36:50.120 just imagined that. And so that was that's like almost 0:36:50.200 --> 0:36:53.160 everybody that were who's sort of listening to all of this. 0:36:54.280 --> 0:36:56.279 If you grow up at that time and you fall 0:36:56.320 --> 0:36:58.719 in love with some country acts, and why wouldn't you? 0:36:58.800 --> 0:37:05.320 They were it was amazing time, right, and amazing writing community, vibrant, vibrant, vibrant. 0:37:05.680 --> 0:37:09.040 But you live in America, so what's even you know. 0:37:09.200 --> 0:37:12.480 The the other thing that's incredible and emerging and and 0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:16.239 really muscular is urban music and rap. Right, So as 0:37:16.239 --> 0:37:18.480 you move into the early two thousands, if you're not 0:37:18.520 --> 0:37:22.239 listening to rap at all and mixed in with your 0:37:22.280 --> 0:37:25.719 gumbo that has some country acts, right, then I just 0:37:25.760 --> 0:37:27.960 don't know what country you're in, because that's how it is, 0:37:28.160 --> 0:37:30.680 That's what it was. I mean, you aren't going home 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:33.360 to Mary maybe RFD and sitting and just only listening 0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:36.440 to a few little records and you're not gonna know 0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:41.239 that's that's not culture. So of course, Sam, like a 0:37:41.280 --> 0:37:44.080 lot of people you know, like including my son, who 0:37:44.080 --> 0:37:48.560 has this real pop country sound, as artists, they naturally 0:37:49.080 --> 0:37:54.600 integrated these sounds, and that is by definition, honest to me. 0:37:54.719 --> 0:37:58.680 That's always been my biggest argument is it's no one 0:37:58.960 --> 0:38:02.319 kicking at country regoing I'm going to change it. It's 0:38:02.360 --> 0:38:07.280 everyone using the tools they've grown up with. And again, 0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:08.680 I was born in the eighties, so I was in 0:38:08.840 --> 0:38:11.960 nineties teenage kid. And it was also when Napster happened, 0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:14.080 and I then realized I could have every song that 0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:15.560 started with L. All I had to do was hit 0:38:15.600 --> 0:38:18.239 it and and I had every kind of no. I 0:38:18.280 --> 0:38:21.160 grew up in Arkansas, so if it wasn't Glenn Campbell 0:38:21.280 --> 0:38:23.840 or Andy Grafs Gospel Records, or Johnny Cash or Ray Charles, 0:38:24.200 --> 0:38:26.840 then it started to be mcgrawl and Garth. Then it 0:38:26.920 --> 0:38:29.440 started to be Nirvana and Pearl Jam. Then it was 0:38:29.520 --> 0:38:34.120 hip hop, and so at my core I'm a country 0:38:34.200 --> 0:38:36.320 music fan. But if I acted like I wasn't a 0:38:36.400 --> 0:38:39.680 hip hop guy or an alternative guy, it would be 0:38:39.719 --> 0:38:42.759 a lie. You be, we want and to your point 0:38:42.760 --> 0:38:45.759 of authenticity, do we want people lying? Isn't that the 0:38:45.800 --> 0:38:49.000 purpose of this entire format is that it's supposed to 0:38:49.000 --> 0:38:52.120 be real. And if you look with the people Sam 0:38:52.160 --> 0:38:56.040 reach like there's a reason that he sells out amphitheaters 0:38:56.520 --> 0:39:00.880 every single time instantly because he's actually reaching human. Yeah, 0:39:01.080 --> 0:39:02.320 and isn't at the point and here's the thing of 0:39:02.360 --> 0:39:04.319 twenty years, people are gonna go a man, I wish 0:39:04.360 --> 0:39:06.480 it was like the little Sam Hunt days. Yeah, It'll 0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:09.359 be like, boy that was country, that was country back then. 0:39:09.960 --> 0:39:13.440 This guy over here with the bike horn. You know 0:39:13.920 --> 0:39:17.560 this is not country. So look I make i'd be. 0:39:17.640 --> 0:39:19.560 At the same time, I gotta say it's I'm not 0:39:19.600 --> 0:39:21.239 talking about both sides of my mouth. But you know, 0:39:21.280 --> 0:39:24.840 like as a musician, I mean like when I do demos, 0:39:24.880 --> 0:39:26.600 now I get a couple other guys like me who 0:39:26.600 --> 0:39:29.760 play a bunch of instruments. There's no money for demos anymore. 0:39:30.239 --> 0:39:31.719 You know. People don't do like they used to. It 0:39:31.800 --> 0:39:33.239 was like you know, he used to it was every 0:39:33.320 --> 0:39:35.400 every six weeks we just do a big old session 0:39:35.440 --> 0:39:37.560 and just put it on the card, and everybody was 0:39:37.960 --> 0:39:40.040 those days are not that's not where we're at right now. 0:39:41.280 --> 0:39:45.840 But because I mean, I'm really a roots guy, I 0:39:45.880 --> 0:39:48.240 really am, you know, and I mean what I really 0:39:48.280 --> 0:39:52.080 love to listen to is still I mean, I still 0:39:52.120 --> 0:39:56.040 love a Patty Loveless record like crazy, you know. I 0:39:56.120 --> 0:40:00.560 still love New Grass Revival, I still love you know, 0:40:01.120 --> 0:40:05.040 I love Jimmy Webb's song sung by Glenn Campbell because 0:40:05.880 --> 0:40:09.000 I'm I'm a piano player and I just the harmonic 0:40:09.560 --> 0:40:13.480 ideas and those songs that really was as much as 0:40:13.520 --> 0:40:15.920 anything that kind of brought me to the genre. I love, 0:40:17.000 --> 0:40:19.080 you know, the way you know, the people that are 0:40:19.080 --> 0:40:23.520 really who play acoustic guitar beautifully. I try, you know, 0:40:23.560 --> 0:40:26.640 my whole life. I'm always trying to stretch as a musician, 0:40:26.680 --> 0:40:30.120 but I don't really I don't really dig a lot 0:40:30.160 --> 0:40:33.200 of digital information in terms of my aesthetic, in terms 0:40:33.200 --> 0:40:35.399 of you know, I'm I'm an old dog, if you will, 0:40:35.600 --> 0:40:40.200 and happily so. At the same time, I really feel 0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:42.640 like as long as I've been in this industry, I've 0:40:42.680 --> 0:40:46.080 been hearing this stick since the day I got here, 0:40:46.560 --> 0:40:49.359 and I'm tired of damn, honest to god, I mean, 0:40:49.600 --> 0:40:55.120 I'm sick of people. You know. It's just it's so 0:40:55.840 --> 0:40:59.840 it's so nonproductive, you know, because yes, thank God for 0:41:00.080 --> 0:41:04.400 Zach Brown and you know, and and the earthy whatever, 0:41:04.480 --> 0:41:07.080 the roots side of things that still and I definitely 0:41:07.480 --> 0:41:09.839 hope that it makes a comeback also because if it does, 0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:11.920 I might have a job as I get older, you know, 0:41:12.560 --> 0:41:14.600 you know, because more and more I find the stuff 0:41:14.640 --> 0:41:17.319 that I'm doing. It. Yeah, it just sounds like it's 0:41:17.760 --> 0:41:21.400 hopelessly in another world. But these things do tend to 0:41:21.400 --> 0:41:23.719 work in cycles. And the song is at the end 0:41:23.760 --> 0:41:26.880 of the day, it is the king, the queen, it is, 0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:30.680 you know, the court. Eventually everything does return to the song. 0:41:30.760 --> 0:41:35.680 I know that. And eventually everyone has to be able 0:41:35.719 --> 0:41:38.680 to play such a song like that somewhere with a 0:41:38.680 --> 0:41:41.799 guitar or a piano in a room. And that's the 0:41:41.840 --> 0:41:45.239 classic thing. And that and most songwriters and artists, you know, 0:41:45.360 --> 0:41:47.600 that's really what they want. They want to have a 0:41:47.640 --> 0:41:52.120 song that you can play and it just immediately is 0:41:52.160 --> 0:41:54.839 transformative that you know, that's what they refer to as 0:41:54.880 --> 0:41:58.120 a copyright and it's not just money, you know, it isn't. 0:41:58.920 --> 0:42:01.480 It isn't. I'm not not the same, you know, pure 0:42:01.480 --> 0:42:03.960 as a driven snow or anything. But for those of 0:42:04.040 --> 0:42:07.360 us who are crazy songwriter musician types, we are. We 0:42:07.440 --> 0:42:12.640 are like like odd religious devotees and and pilgrim souls. 0:42:12.640 --> 0:42:14.239 I mean, we really are. You know, It's it's a 0:42:14.280 --> 0:42:17.200 strange bunch. You know. I think you might be the 0:42:17.239 --> 0:42:23.279 smartest person I've ever talked to. I'm sure. I'm like, 0:42:23.320 --> 0:42:26.040 I'm I'm listening and I'm understanding everything you're saying, and 0:42:26.040 --> 0:42:29.600 I'm just like wow, And it's crazy that, you know, 0:42:29.640 --> 0:42:30.920 there have been a couple of people I brought in 0:42:31.200 --> 0:42:34.440 you talked to and you go, okay, there it's a 0:42:34.520 --> 0:42:36.680 familiar level level they're thinking out with me. Not that 0:42:36.719 --> 0:42:40.160 I'm right, but it's a familiar level and you're talking 0:42:40.239 --> 0:42:44.480 on a familiar level that I thinking, but so much smarter. 0:42:44.800 --> 0:42:46.000 Like I want to go back and listen to this, 0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:47.440 go this is watched the same next time I get 0:42:47.480 --> 0:42:49.879 to argue because I have the same like to me, 0:42:51.160 --> 0:42:56.400 there's room for everything. Is there's room for everything, and 0:42:56.480 --> 0:42:59.680 there's no definition inside of art. As soon as you 0:42:59.680 --> 0:43:03.400 start to put walls around art, then it's not what 0:43:03.520 --> 0:43:06.239 you wanted to know. And what do you want out 0:43:06.239 --> 0:43:09.080 of people? You know, you say you want artists, you 0:43:09.120 --> 0:43:12.560 say you even know what that means. And then you 0:43:12.560 --> 0:43:14.719 you know the nature of those kinds of people is 0:43:14.760 --> 0:43:18.319 they're sort of explosive. They they move in directions, they 0:43:18.360 --> 0:43:20.440 go to the river, moves in a way that you 0:43:20.680 --> 0:43:22.880 didn't see it coming. You know. I'm like, that's what 0:43:23.000 --> 0:43:25.960 that looks like. And like my son, for example, is 0:43:26.239 --> 0:43:30.720 so Levi is you know, making his way in music 0:43:30.840 --> 0:43:33.560 right now, and his sound is more pop country, but 0:43:33.600 --> 0:43:35.560 then he has two or three different gears and I'm 0:43:35.560 --> 0:43:37.440 always telling him maybe he gets sick of hearing it. 0:43:37.480 --> 0:43:39.319 We just literally got off the road from two weeks 0:43:39.360 --> 0:43:41.360 together and we shared a room, which I'll tell you what. 0:43:42.000 --> 0:43:44.319 That's something, you know, because he's twenty six and got 0:43:44.480 --> 0:43:47.320 a poor guy. You know, we're in like Amsterdam, he's 0:43:47.320 --> 0:43:49.160 he's sharing a room with his dad. Think about that 0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:52.840 for a moment, just let that settle in. But we 0:43:52.920 --> 0:43:54.279 had a great time, you know, and we're out and 0:43:54.280 --> 0:43:56.520 we're playing with a lot of people and and uh, 0:43:56.600 --> 0:43:58.360 you know, we're doing you know, a country week in 0:43:58.400 --> 0:44:00.560 the UK, and and I've been playing in and out 0:44:00.600 --> 0:44:02.279 of the UK for years. I mean that it's just 0:44:02.640 --> 0:44:05.319 give a following there. I wouldn't say I have a 0:44:05.400 --> 0:44:09.600 following um in the UK. I mean that when I 0:44:09.640 --> 0:44:12.640 was on Columbia the one great tour, I had one 0:44:13.760 --> 0:44:17.720 just unforgettable tour well, and then I was signed my 0:44:17.480 --> 0:44:19.680 my rock deal was was out of London, So I 0:44:19.680 --> 0:44:24.000 guess I have all kinds of UK connections. But um, 0:44:24.040 --> 0:44:26.560 I got to open for Alison Kraus and Union Station 0:44:27.360 --> 0:44:31.640 and they did like the Royal you know, um, oh 0:44:31.840 --> 0:44:36.439 what's right there in the Times, the Thames, the Royal 0:44:36.520 --> 0:44:38.640 Festival Hall or whatever. When we did like Ulster Hall, 0:44:38.680 --> 0:44:42.600 in the Gaiety Theater and double like the best places, 0:44:43.120 --> 0:44:45.160 and I could take one musician with me. I was 0:44:45.200 --> 0:44:48.080 allowed one side man. I took Darryl Scott, who I 0:44:48.080 --> 0:44:50.080 had just met, and we septs to be k He's 0:44:50.120 --> 0:44:51.520 one of my best friends in the world. It's like 0:44:51.520 --> 0:44:53.960 a brother to me and he's my longest to this day, 0:44:54.040 --> 0:44:57.160 longest running co writer. Do you know Darryl at I don't, 0:44:57.560 --> 0:44:59.120 Oh you know, do you know who he is? Though 0:44:59.239 --> 0:45:01.399 I know who he is? People talking about him. Yeah, 0:45:01.480 --> 0:45:03.480 I've never met him. Yeah, well, he's one of the 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:06.440 best ever. And he's taught me more about what is 0:45:06.520 --> 0:45:09.360 country what isn't than probably anybody, because I don't know 0:45:09.400 --> 0:45:13.160 anybody who knows country music the history of it more. 0:45:13.280 --> 0:45:15.960 And can do you know, you can do anything, you know. 0:45:16.000 --> 0:45:18.960 It's a guy can play literally everything. But anyway, he's 0:45:19.000 --> 0:45:21.799 my sideman, you know. Uh. And we would go into 0:45:21.800 --> 0:45:24.560 these places and and I would do my forty minutes 0:45:25.880 --> 0:45:29.359 and with Darryll, you know, and then we would sit 0:45:29.560 --> 0:45:32.840 and we would watch this greatest, you know, one of 0:45:32.840 --> 0:45:37.239 the greatest of all American musical forms, you know, like 0:45:38.040 --> 0:45:42.239 just her, you know, just Alison, you know, and then 0:45:42.400 --> 0:45:45.480 to Minsky and you know the band, you know, Jerry Douglas. 0:45:45.640 --> 0:45:47.759 And we literally would sit night after night and then 0:45:47.840 --> 0:45:49.480 we then we'd get in our car because they had 0:45:49.480 --> 0:45:50.719 a bus we had to follow on a car. We 0:45:50.800 --> 0:45:53.080 drive in through Ireland, you can imagine. And it was 0:45:53.239 --> 0:45:55.160 it was just as romantic as it should be. It 0:45:55.239 --> 0:45:59.200 was a great thing. It was extraordinary, you know, And 0:45:59.239 --> 0:46:01.160 that was like the greyest thing I ever got to do. 0:46:01.239 --> 0:46:03.839 And I remember I even when I flew back from 0:46:03.880 --> 0:46:06.640 the UK um I literally had to get off the 0:46:06.680 --> 0:46:08.960 plane and went right to playing like a holiday in 0:46:09.760 --> 0:46:11.400 you know, on my radio tour. And I think I 0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:14.799 got drunk, you know, and and like the record President game, 0:46:14.800 --> 0:46:17.200 and like he got drunk too, and and I felt 0:46:17.239 --> 0:46:18.919 sick the next day, and I thought, oh my god, 0:46:19.040 --> 0:46:22.640 you know, I mean, it's kind of a great thing 0:46:22.680 --> 0:46:24.319 to do. It's a great American thing to do. But 0:46:24.360 --> 0:46:26.520 now my son, you know, like our son, not mine, 0:46:26.560 --> 0:46:29.439 but our son, aren't We have three sons. The oldest boy, 0:46:29.560 --> 0:46:34.479 Levi's out there and he's already had like great sort 0:46:34.480 --> 0:46:37.440 of ups and downs and and uh, and he is 0:46:37.640 --> 0:46:40.200 teaching me about a new paradigm which is occurring. And 0:46:40.400 --> 0:46:43.120 you know, there's always a new paradise, something's always coming, 0:46:43.160 --> 0:46:47.040 of course. And it was interesting because this past year 0:46:47.520 --> 0:46:50.200 I helped co produce a movie called The Last Songwriter. 0:46:51.200 --> 0:46:54.920 And in this movie, with the directors director Mark Barsor Elliott, 0:46:55.640 --> 0:46:59.480 we looked at what has happened with streaming and the 0:47:00.200 --> 0:47:04.279 like severe attrition in the songwriting community in Nashville, like 0:47:04.360 --> 0:47:08.319 the Wall Street Journal says, of our uh, making a 0:47:08.360 --> 0:47:11.160 living population is lost. You know, there's only like it 0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:14.680 went from four thousand or four d eight years and so, 0:47:15.280 --> 0:47:17.440 and my job and it was to score it, but 0:47:17.520 --> 0:47:19.799 also my job is to pick songwriters to talk about 0:47:19.840 --> 0:47:21.680 it and to talk about what, you know, like what 0:47:21.800 --> 0:47:24.439 the art form is really like. So we got some 0:47:24.680 --> 0:47:28.320 major stars. Garth Brooks was agreed to do it. Jason Isabel, 0:47:28.520 --> 0:47:30.640 you know who's just extraordinary he did at Emma Lou 0:47:30.680 --> 0:47:34.760 Harris and then the the and yet the main event 0:47:34.800 --> 0:47:38.520 in a way is I picked Matresa Berg, Tony Rata, 0:47:38.640 --> 0:47:41.960 Tom Douglas down Shamblin to be this sort of internal 0:47:42.000 --> 0:47:44.359 dialogue in the movie. It's just an hour long movie 0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:47.600 and it it premiered at the Nashville Film Festival and 0:47:47.719 --> 0:47:50.439 got in a you know, like Appreciation Award or whatever 0:47:51.080 --> 0:47:55.840 whatever they have there. And it's a beautiful movie, um, 0:47:55.920 --> 0:47:57.640 but a lot of what it says in it, you know, 0:47:57.640 --> 0:48:00.720 it's sort of talking about streaming, so you know, streaming 0:48:00.719 --> 0:48:04.960 comes along, and it doesn't really include writers and publishers 0:48:04.960 --> 0:48:07.600 as we know, and the deals are really made the 0:48:08.960 --> 0:48:11.040 with the people that own the sound recording, which is 0:48:11.120 --> 0:48:13.160 usually the record company unless you're Taylor Swift or your 0:48:13.200 --> 0:48:15.160 Kanye or whatever, and you own your own sound recording. 0:48:15.880 --> 0:48:18.680 And so we know the reality and the course the 0:48:19.200 --> 0:48:22.840 growth of streaming is off is off the chart, and 0:48:23.320 --> 0:48:27.240 so consequently, you know, Lomana tone Poll is a songwriter. 0:48:28.040 --> 0:48:31.200 So that's all true, Like that's all just happening. And 0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:35.480 in the midst of that, I see my son Um. 0:48:35.640 --> 0:48:38.080 He's on you know, Big Machine, and they have a 0:48:38.080 --> 0:48:41.239 really amicable parting of the ways. And he's got this 0:48:41.280 --> 0:48:44.319 great management company, Iconic, which is really a label, and 0:48:44.360 --> 0:48:48.759 they just start putting out you know, songs, singles as 0:48:48.800 --> 0:48:53.120 streaming singles, and he kind of has showed me that 0:48:53.320 --> 0:48:55.480 how great really streaming is in a lot of ways, 0:48:55.520 --> 0:48:59.160 and it's it's entire it's really bringing about this kind 0:48:59.160 --> 0:49:03.200 of democratization of the form because people who aren't just 0:49:03.280 --> 0:49:06.040 the four or five labels that's all that's left now, right, 0:49:06.640 --> 0:49:09.600 who get their little corporate push. You've got people like 0:49:09.680 --> 0:49:11.760 you know, he's got the first song that Don't Waste Tonight. 0:49:11.800 --> 0:49:13.920 You know, he's got you get two million streams from 0:49:13.920 --> 0:49:18.040 somebody that nobody knows and next single, the song called Stupid. 0:49:18.120 --> 0:49:20.320 In a week, it was like a hundred and something thousand, 0:49:20.840 --> 0:49:24.720 and he's explaining to me, you know, Dad, this is great. 0:49:25.080 --> 0:49:27.759 Do you see that it's great. And what I'm realizing 0:49:27.880 --> 0:49:32.760 is that it is great. It's great. The problem isn't streaming. 0:49:33.440 --> 0:49:35.480 I mean, yes, it would be wonderful if the folks 0:49:35.520 --> 0:49:38.880 that created the form, the Pandora's, the apples, the Spotify's, 0:49:39.480 --> 0:49:42.640 if they had just gone like, well, you know, it's 0:49:42.680 --> 0:49:45.480 just morally wrong to to cut out. But the thing 0:49:45.560 --> 0:49:49.040 is that because the nature of the laws that govern 0:49:49.360 --> 0:49:54.040 intellectual property in America, we are held under compulsory licenses, 0:49:54.080 --> 0:49:57.920 which means that we can't negotiate in this you know, 0:49:58.600 --> 0:50:02.680 in this society, this capital society, we cannot negotiate for 0:50:02.800 --> 0:50:07.000 you know, for our worth in business, songwriters. So we're 0:50:07.040 --> 0:50:12.240 we're screwed unless Congress has to go ahead and say, hey, 0:50:12.560 --> 0:50:16.320 these are laws, there are kick. This digital revolution is 0:50:16.400 --> 0:50:19.600 upon us. Music is being played more than ever. Let's 0:50:19.640 --> 0:50:22.040 find some way to you know, to in a fair 0:50:22.080 --> 0:50:26.200 way to monetize it. And before we lose this one 0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:29.680 of you know, one of America's greatest assets is it's songwriters. 0:50:30.520 --> 0:50:32.960 But it's really been interesting with LEVI because I've you know, 0:50:33.120 --> 0:50:35.000 when I was doing the movie, I kept thinking, you, oh, 0:50:35.160 --> 0:50:38.960 you know, streaming bad evil, you know, And I've come 0:50:39.000 --> 0:50:42.279 to realize it. Really, that's not where the fight is. 0:50:42.840 --> 0:50:46.520 The fight needs to be fought in laws need to change. 0:50:47.360 --> 0:50:52.680 But but streaming itself is just you know, who doesn't 0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:55.240 want to have access to all these songs? I've always 0:50:55.239 --> 0:50:58.520 felt with streaming and right now it's the wild West 0:50:58.560 --> 0:51:02.000 as far as laws, meaning no one's breaking it. There 0:51:02.080 --> 0:51:06.480 just aren't them yet. And just like the wild Wit, 0:51:06.640 --> 0:51:11.840 eventually there's there'll be a sheriff it comes into town 0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:16.200 that actually regulates what's happening in the town. And until 0:51:16.239 --> 0:51:18.520 then you a lot of people running crazy. There are 0:51:18.560 --> 0:51:22.279 no the rules are so old school. Yeah that they're 0:51:22.360 --> 0:51:24.880 not they're not real time. They're not real time. But 0:51:25.000 --> 0:51:27.800 what's happening with with a lot of my friends and songwriters, 0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:32.480 A lot of my friends will testify and talk to Yeah, 0:51:32.520 --> 0:51:34.720 and when you're now new friends and now another friend 0:51:34.760 --> 0:51:36.400 that goes up. We go up to N S. We 0:51:36.440 --> 0:51:38.000 do the N S A I thing and you know, 0:51:38.120 --> 0:51:41.320 thank God for Bart and Krista and and those folks. 0:51:41.320 --> 0:51:43.080 You know, it's funny when you do them because you 0:51:43.280 --> 0:51:46.240 realize that you're really there to play a couple of songs, 0:51:46.280 --> 0:51:49.799 and you know it's something's gonna have to happen, and 0:51:49.840 --> 0:51:52.160 I don't know, Uh, I just don't know when I 0:51:52.160 --> 0:51:54.080 believe it will. I mean, I know that it will happen, 0:51:54.120 --> 0:51:56.880 but I know that the laws will change eventually. I 0:51:56.960 --> 0:51:59.520 just hope they do, you know, before too long. But 0:52:00.000 --> 0:52:01.600 and a lot of that is because I feel for 0:52:01.719 --> 0:52:05.680 younger songwriters that you know, it's just it's really good 0:52:05.719 --> 0:52:07.160 to be able to make a little bit of money. 0:52:07.160 --> 0:52:10.040 You're not talking baseball money here. We're not talking about hey, 0:52:10.080 --> 0:52:13.640 you know, let's you know, like we're talking about just 0:52:13.920 --> 0:52:17.319 make enough money that you can do what it is 0:52:17.360 --> 0:52:19.600 that God meant you to do, which is to write 0:52:20.440 --> 0:52:25.000 this poetry, to try and become Jimmy Webb, to try 0:52:25.800 --> 0:52:28.880 try and write Galveston. That's what you want to do. 0:52:29.320 --> 0:52:31.319 You want to write American Pie. I mean, you want 0:52:31.320 --> 0:52:34.560 to write fire and Ring, you want to write damn 0:52:34.560 --> 0:52:37.200 You're anything Carol King wrote. You know, like, that's what 0:52:37.280 --> 0:52:39.440 you want to do. And and but to do that, 0:52:39.480 --> 0:52:42.080 you've got to be able to apply your trade all 0:52:42.080 --> 0:52:45.320 the time. And it it, you know, will will great 0:52:45.320 --> 0:52:48.799 writers emerge that One of the interesting statistics that we found, 0:52:48.840 --> 0:52:52.600 I mean this is is that even though less people 0:52:52.640 --> 0:52:56.200 are making a living, at songwriting that it's still kind 0:52:56.200 --> 0:52:58.920 of like the same general number of songwriters are floating 0:52:58.920 --> 0:53:05.640 around this town. So the true hearts, the real believers, 0:53:06.080 --> 0:53:08.960 they're all out there. They're all out there. And frankly, 0:53:09.000 --> 0:53:12.000 if streaming gives people a chance to be unique and exciting, 0:53:12.640 --> 0:53:16.120 and you know, maybe John Marcus the gate keeper, you know, 0:53:16.640 --> 0:53:19.400 if he is, he's he's pretty groovy as far as 0:53:19.440 --> 0:53:21.400 I can tell, you know, I mean, I know, at 0:53:21.480 --> 0:53:24.080 least maybe I'm speaking as a father, as a dad, 0:53:24.320 --> 0:53:25.880 you know, like he's been good. You know, he he 0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:29.120 digs leavey stuff, and and it's not just the it's 0:53:29.160 --> 0:53:32.520 its own thing, right, And I just think you have 0:53:32.600 --> 0:53:34.759 to be thankful for folks like that too, that are 0:53:34.800 --> 0:53:36.600 you know, that want to hear something new, that are 0:53:36.640 --> 0:53:39.279 willing to take some chances. You know, I think you're 0:53:39.280 --> 0:53:45.280 speaking as a dad. Okay, really, okay's got their own opinion. 0:53:45.880 --> 0:53:59.879 Um here's there because I like LEVI yeah, I feel 0:53:59.920 --> 0:54:01.680 like this has been a college course and now I 0:54:01.719 --> 0:54:03.480 want to shift it a second. I want to here's 0:54:03.560 --> 0:54:06.600 my here's my theory on streaming and why it's all 0:54:06.680 --> 0:54:09.000 something's also gonna happen to it because it's becoming out 0:54:09.000 --> 0:54:12.319 of control to where these streams are so inflated, to 0:54:12.360 --> 0:54:14.520 where if somebody's gotta have friends that have songs have 0:54:14.520 --> 0:54:17.840 been stream ten million times, yea, they can't sell it 0:54:17.880 --> 0:54:20.239 a bar. You're gonna tell me ten million people have 0:54:20.400 --> 0:54:23.439 listened to this song, but you can't get to people 0:54:23.440 --> 0:54:25.359 to buy tickets. But I can tell but I can 0:54:25.360 --> 0:54:27.080 show you the opposite side of that, the other side 0:54:27.080 --> 0:54:29.040 to that. And again, I'm again it sounds like I'm 0:54:29.040 --> 0:54:31.160 just sitting around your pitching my son, But I mean, 0:54:31.160 --> 0:54:34.480 I just I'm telling you, like he goes out and 0:54:34.520 --> 0:54:37.920 he plays, He's three days away from going out with 0:54:38.000 --> 0:54:40.640 eighteen Days with l a young band, and he gets 0:54:40.680 --> 0:54:43.120 goes out with you know, I mean, you know, Kip 0:54:43.160 --> 0:54:45.359 takes him out, and Dan and Shaye take him out, 0:54:45.360 --> 0:54:48.560 and Kelsey takes him out, and he goes to Chicago 0:54:48.680 --> 0:54:52.319 and he hard tickets clubs. Now he's put almost two 0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:56.120 years in and he's got followings in pockets, and I 0:54:56.200 --> 0:54:58.440 even know, I couldn't believe it. I'm in London right 0:54:58.960 --> 0:55:02.399 with my kid in the same room. What we're going 0:55:02.440 --> 0:55:04.680 to do in shows, right, And I'm playing the show 0:55:04.719 --> 0:55:06.839 and I'm watching the audience and he's up there, you know, 0:55:07.600 --> 0:55:10.840 and he's singing, uh, what's the first one? Um, not 0:55:11.040 --> 0:55:14.160 stupid the uh, don't waste the night, don't wasten night, 0:55:14.320 --> 0:55:16.880 Come on, come over. I'm looking at the audience and 0:55:16.920 --> 0:55:21.279 they're singing it, and I'm thinking, well, okay, I mean, 0:55:22.960 --> 0:55:25.480 you know, that's that's trippy to me. You know, let 0:55:25.480 --> 0:55:27.359 me not be a dad for a second and talk 0:55:27.440 --> 0:55:29.160 on the other side. And I do believe that it's 0:55:29.160 --> 0:55:33.359 reaching more people than anything since Napster. It's we're back 0:55:33.400 --> 0:55:36.239 to that where people. First of all we need is 0:55:36.239 --> 0:55:39.600 people to pay for the premium services. That's a thing. 0:55:40.360 --> 0:55:45.200 So that will in the end trickle down to the 0:55:45.239 --> 0:55:47.880 songwriters at least for a bit until we're able to 0:55:48.040 --> 0:55:51.080 change the laws. But paying for the premium services is 0:55:51.120 --> 0:55:53.360 actually a big deal, So we need more people to 0:55:53.360 --> 0:55:55.560 buy the premium services. I don't care if it's Spotify, 0:55:55.760 --> 0:56:02.480 Apple Music. I heart radio, Spotify with it's no commercials, Pandora. 0:56:02.640 --> 0:56:05.799 You know, everybody now is doing on demand music, and 0:56:05.880 --> 0:56:08.920 there's no doubt that people are hearing these songs and 0:56:09.000 --> 0:56:10.799 if someone's coming to town, they're able to check them 0:56:10.840 --> 0:56:13.080 out easily because they have access on their phone to 0:56:14.760 --> 0:56:17.160 um or. People can develop a fan basis too, with 0:56:17.200 --> 0:56:20.000 social media also a big part of this. I'll give 0:56:20.040 --> 0:56:21.960 you an example. I took Laura Lane out and she 0:56:22.040 --> 0:56:26.680 opened for us for ten shows from my band UH 0:56:26.800 --> 0:56:30.480 and Lauren was like, I'm fifty million strange and I'm 0:56:30.520 --> 0:56:32.640 opening for you, And I'm like, you're right, that's crazy 0:56:32.680 --> 0:56:36.880 because you're so much better than I know. And it 0:56:37.080 --> 0:56:40.359 is reaching the mass more so. But what's happening is 0:56:40.560 --> 0:56:43.879 people are seeing these inflated numbers and going that's not real. 0:56:43.920 --> 0:56:46.879 So it's ruining it for everyone. And so when someone 0:56:46.920 --> 0:56:48.680 comes up and they go, now, I'll just give you 0:56:48.800 --> 0:56:52.920 a normal conversation inside of because for me, everything is 0:56:53.000 --> 0:56:56.440 digital like that the days of transmitters going into cars. 0:56:56.880 --> 0:56:59.680 There's probably three to five years of that being really strong, 0:56:59.800 --> 0:57:01.560 and that's going to start go away. So I've already 0:57:01.600 --> 0:57:04.560 shifted how I do my job. I'm playing to the phone. 0:57:04.800 --> 0:57:07.480 Like everything I do place to the phone, because everybody's 0:57:07.520 --> 0:57:10.080 got there's all the time I do my radio show, 0:57:10.120 --> 0:57:12.080 and I got three to five years of really strong 0:57:12.160 --> 0:57:14.120 that really strong, especially in country, which is a couple 0:57:14.120 --> 0:57:17.080 of years behind. But I'm playing to the phone already 0:57:17.440 --> 0:57:20.200 I have five million that listen on normal radio and 0:57:20.200 --> 0:57:22.760 another five million that download my podcast. So I'm looking 0:57:22.800 --> 0:57:25.800 at pretty much at split and who's taking my content. 0:57:26.880 --> 0:57:28.880 But I can tell you sitting in these meeting from 0:57:28.920 --> 0:57:30.320 people come and go, I have this artist and he's 0:57:30.360 --> 0:57:32.440 got three million streams, and I go, somebody just playlist? 0:57:32.440 --> 0:57:35.560 Did you? And they're not showing us the algorithm and 0:57:35.560 --> 0:57:37.960 how these things are getting tracked, Like, let's have a 0:57:38.000 --> 0:57:41.800 little bit of transparency here on. At least with sound scan, 0:57:41.920 --> 0:57:44.240 when albums were bought, there was some transparency, and know 0:57:44.280 --> 0:57:46.360 when this many records came from this store, it was deep. 0:57:46.840 --> 0:57:49.080 There's not that in the digital landscape. So it makes 0:57:49.120 --> 0:57:51.400 everyone seemed full of crap because you have people that 0:57:51.440 --> 0:57:55.120 are just putting songs on playlists and nobody knows it. 0:57:55.160 --> 0:57:57.160 And because you bought the guy at dinner or took, 0:57:57.320 --> 0:57:59.520 you know, took a nap at his house, you all 0:57:59.560 --> 0:58:02.160 of a sudden get playlisted. And it doesn't happen with everybody, 0:58:02.200 --> 0:58:05.640 but it is happening like that. But at the same time, 0:58:06.160 --> 0:58:11.080 radio has its problems, streaming has its problems. Everywhere has 0:58:11.120 --> 0:58:14.720 a weakness, Satellite has its weakness. Higher end they don't 0:58:14.720 --> 0:58:17.880 know how people are listening either, much smaller audience. Everybody's 0:58:17.880 --> 0:58:20.160 got its weakness, but everybody has its strength too, And 0:58:20.200 --> 0:58:21.600 so I could sit here and I often do it, 0:58:21.680 --> 0:58:23.480 pick radio apart, and boy do I get in trouble 0:58:23.520 --> 0:58:26.360 for that, because I mean, that's who pays me when 0:58:26.400 --> 0:58:28.080 I go on the radio and talk about how radio 0:58:28.200 --> 0:58:31.120 is failing me. It's dying how and not even that 0:58:31.200 --> 0:58:35.320 it's done. It's shifting, its shifting. But I go, hey, 0:58:35.320 --> 0:58:38.560 why aren't we working on some of these new initiatives 0:58:38.560 --> 0:58:41.200 that we know? Regardless, I yell at my own people, 0:58:41.440 --> 0:58:43.640 and I get in trouble, so I feel safe and 0:58:43.720 --> 0:58:46.080 yelling at everybody else too. I did tell everybody, but 0:58:46.160 --> 0:58:49.080 I think that's my When it comes to streaming, that's 0:58:49.080 --> 0:58:51.920 the issue. These inflated numbers are making everyone look at 0:58:51.960 --> 0:58:54.040 and go, well, this is absurd. None of it's true 0:58:54.040 --> 0:58:56.680 because you can buy You can buy ten thousand streams 0:58:56.720 --> 0:58:58.880 very easily, and people are doing it. Labels are buying 0:58:58.920 --> 0:59:03.640 streams like crazy. And it's like YouTube views. You can 0:59:03.680 --> 0:59:07.320 buy YouTube views, no problem, that still happens, but that 0:59:07.360 --> 0:59:09.439 was a two years ago. A thing really where you're 0:59:09.440 --> 0:59:13.160 buying YouTube views now people are buying streaming numbers as well. Right, 0:59:13.440 --> 0:59:15.680 so I'm gonna pay and I'm gonna get fifty streams 0:59:15.720 --> 0:59:17.480 and I'm gonna look that much cooler. Okay, Well, you 0:59:17.480 --> 0:59:18.960 pay ten thousand dollars, all of a sudden you got 0:59:18.960 --> 0:59:21.360 a million streams, and it helps you go, well, I 0:59:21.360 --> 0:59:22.919 got now I got a million streams. This guy should 0:59:22.960 --> 0:59:25.520 come play here. Too many people are doing that. The 0:59:25.560 --> 0:59:28.200 oversaturation of the person with ten million streams is happening, 0:59:28.480 --> 0:59:30.320 and people are starting to roll their eyes at it. Yeah, 0:59:30.680 --> 0:59:32.600 does all that make sense? It does make sense, I 0:59:33.040 --> 0:59:36.440 mean it does. And yet I'm I have to admit, 0:59:36.480 --> 0:59:41.080 I mean I'm not. I don't feel like you know, 0:59:41.120 --> 0:59:44.520 I'm in my fifties and I think I resemble my 0:59:44.520 --> 0:59:46.440 own generation. You know, a lot of this stuff is 0:59:46.520 --> 0:59:50.280 kind of it's like mystifying to me. What's not mystifying 0:59:50.360 --> 0:59:53.920 is the idea once something starts to take streaming, and 0:59:53.960 --> 0:59:57.120 it's always it's funny because it's always happened. Something will 0:59:57.120 --> 0:59:58.919 take and then you find some way to pay for it. 0:59:59.080 --> 1:00:01.080 But I have to say that I think that where 1:00:01.080 --> 1:00:04.240 the rubber meets the road a little bit is any 1:00:04.320 --> 1:00:07.720 form of if you get any kind of saturation or 1:00:07.760 --> 1:00:09.480 any kind of that may not be the I don't 1:00:09.480 --> 1:00:11.920 even know if I know the term the terms any 1:00:12.000 --> 1:00:17.919 traction and you and if you play live, if they're 1:00:18.040 --> 1:00:21.840 if you notice a relationship, if there relays a relationship 1:00:21.880 --> 1:00:26.960 between being a really vital live musician where you go 1:00:27.240 --> 1:00:30.040 and you know you're you're really building something, you have 1:00:30.160 --> 1:00:33.200 a sound, then I think you've at least got some 1:00:33.280 --> 1:00:36.400 building blocks to work with in this very strange time, 1:00:36.440 --> 1:00:40.080 which it feels like an interim time to me, it's 1:00:40.120 --> 1:00:43.800 an it's a niche time. This this is what I'm seeing, 1:00:43.880 --> 1:00:46.720 is I can for me, technology is huge and getting 1:00:46.720 --> 1:00:48.520 all my messages out. See now you seem like the 1:00:48.560 --> 1:00:52.439 smartest guy I've ever met. But I have to eat, 1:00:52.880 --> 1:00:54.760 so I have to pay the bills. So I've got 1:00:54.760 --> 1:00:56.960 to figure out how to use all of these areas 1:00:57.040 --> 1:00:59.120 and you get my message out whatever it is. Everybody 1:00:59.120 --> 1:01:00.840 has a message, So I've got to learn how to 1:01:00.920 --> 1:01:02.600 use my Twitter in the in the correct way, my 1:01:02.640 --> 1:01:04.960 Instagram in the right way, what music I put up, 1:01:05.160 --> 1:01:08.120 what music I promote to put So there are all 1:01:08.200 --> 1:01:11.400 these things, and what I've determined is that we're becoming 1:01:12.000 --> 1:01:17.400 a niche celebrity society, meaning the days of just having 1:01:17.440 --> 1:01:21.320 three channels and Mash gets twenty million viewers is over. 1:01:21.560 --> 1:01:22.760 By the way, I wasn't even I don't even know 1:01:22.760 --> 1:01:24.080 how's a live one match was on. But that's my 1:01:24.120 --> 1:01:27.440 example of everybody watched the finale and match. There's a 1:01:27.480 --> 1:01:32.919 reason it has the record. So there are so many 1:01:32.960 --> 1:01:35.280 options out there. It's like a high It's like the 1:01:35.280 --> 1:01:39.439 interstate and all these cars are going by, and so 1:01:39.920 --> 1:01:42.080 you gotta quickly catch one because there comes another, here 1:01:42.120 --> 1:01:45.000 comes another. If you build your niche and you find 1:01:45.080 --> 1:01:49.160 your small audience and you super serve the crap out 1:01:49.160 --> 1:01:51.840 of them, that's where the success is going to start 1:01:51.840 --> 1:01:53.640 coming from. Because there are a thousand different things to do. 1:01:53.760 --> 1:01:55.439 That's why people are putting out songs so quick, because 1:01:55.440 --> 1:01:56.440 it goes from one of the other one or the 1:01:56.480 --> 1:01:58.920 other one or the other. If you find your little 1:01:58.960 --> 1:02:02.280 group of people in you serve them. It's Thanksgiving dinner 1:02:02.320 --> 1:02:05.120 to them every single night. You give them cranberry sauce 1:02:05.280 --> 1:02:08.480 and turkey, and you serve them like crazy, and you 1:02:08.520 --> 1:02:11.480 build that niche out instead of throwing the big blanket 1:02:11.560 --> 1:02:14.000 up and hoping you catch as many as possible. That's 1:02:14.040 --> 1:02:18.680 not working anymore. It's about zeroing in and spreading instead 1:02:18.680 --> 1:02:22.919 of going hey, everyone, I hope you like me. Boom. 1:02:22.960 --> 1:02:26.440 And I've seen the change happen even in my dam 1:02:26.440 --> 1:02:28.480 I mean I started as a teenager in the late 1:02:28.560 --> 1:02:32.440 nineties doing radio. It's changed dramatically since then. When you 1:02:32.440 --> 1:02:36.520 would just put out a record and go, everybody love it, 1:02:36.800 --> 1:02:38.960 that's just not what happens. Even in country music now 1:02:38.960 --> 1:02:41.720 it's not. It's starting to be niche on the major 1:02:42.240 --> 1:02:45.120 side of things, even with how you know, I want 1:02:45.120 --> 1:02:48.520 to hear traditional country. We have radio stations that are 1:02:48.560 --> 1:02:52.000 now breaking apart inside our format. Yeah, which they always 1:02:52.080 --> 1:02:55.000 used to talk about remember the nineties. In the late nineties, 1:02:55.000 --> 1:02:58.960 people started talking that. Now they do it because so 1:02:59.000 --> 1:03:01.680 it's a very niche. If you super serve your small group, 1:03:01.840 --> 1:03:04.480 that small group gets a little bit, bigger gets. This 1:03:04.480 --> 1:03:07.560 podcast started with one thousand people listening. It's like a million. 1:03:07.640 --> 1:03:09.200 I never thought any able to listen to this crap. 1:03:09.960 --> 1:03:11.760 I love it. I'm I'm counting. This is a big 1:03:11.800 --> 1:03:14.080 I'm counting on my career. Pick up. Sure you can 1:03:14.760 --> 1:03:16.360 we talk about hard tickets. You'll be able to go 1:03:16.440 --> 1:03:19.440 anywhere and just talk but yeah, this has turned into 1:03:19.440 --> 1:03:21.840 an entire music theory. You have wrote so many so 1:03:21.960 --> 1:03:26.440 we didn't even get the song. Let's we have like 1:03:26.520 --> 1:03:29.000 a few minutes, let's talk some stuff here because and 1:03:29.040 --> 1:03:31.880 let's just get right down to it, because I feel 1:03:31.920 --> 1:03:34.000 like I just got a degree from Home University all 1:03:34.080 --> 1:03:36.480 right now. I feel like I just learned something, although 1:03:37.240 --> 1:03:39.640 it's so hard for me to follow. And again, I 1:03:39.760 --> 1:03:41.840 see you. I'm seeing a lot of what you're talking 1:03:41.880 --> 1:03:44.760 about really through kind of through my son's eyes. And 1:03:44.880 --> 1:03:48.720 I know Fletcher Fosters manager and like, um, we're really 1:03:49.000 --> 1:03:52.960 you know, really close family friends and um and then 1:03:53.080 --> 1:03:55.120 and you know, and we and and actually the guy 1:03:55.160 --> 1:03:58.400 that you know helps finance Iconic is lair back within me. 1:03:58.840 --> 1:04:00.800 And I love to talk to him, you know, because 1:04:00.640 --> 1:04:03.160 they you know, and they care. They care about their Yes, 1:04:03.200 --> 1:04:05.120 they care about their artists. Is only you know, three 1:04:05.160 --> 1:04:08.440 of them, but they and they're thinking about this stuff 1:04:08.480 --> 1:04:12.240 all the time, you know. Um, and then it's just 1:04:12.320 --> 1:04:15.160 very it's an extraordinary time. And again, as a dad, 1:04:15.200 --> 1:04:18.040 you know, it's not just that I have a I 1:04:18.040 --> 1:04:19.640 have two dogs in the game, if you would, you know, 1:04:19.640 --> 1:04:24.960 like I'm trying to kind of stay vital or involved 1:04:24.960 --> 1:04:27.440 in the business. Vital is a separate issue, by the way, 1:04:27.480 --> 1:04:30.280 in my opinion, you know. But the other thing I'm 1:04:30.280 --> 1:04:33.440 trying to do is I'm also watching you know, my 1:04:33.560 --> 1:04:36.720 son and who I you know, make music with sometimes, 1:04:36.720 --> 1:04:39.120 but also you know who I just love and he's 1:04:39.160 --> 1:04:41.840 trying to you know, I see him going into these waters, 1:04:41.880 --> 1:04:45.000 the very thing that you're talking about, and I'm excited 1:04:45.000 --> 1:04:47.960 for him. But sometimes I also feel like, oh gosh, 1:04:48.160 --> 1:04:50.280 it's so tough for artists today. I mean, I think 1:04:50.280 --> 1:04:52.120 when I was an artist in the nineties, like when 1:04:52.120 --> 1:04:54.720 I had a couple of record deals I had, and 1:04:54.760 --> 1:04:56.480 you know, you would think about, oh wow, I get 1:04:56.480 --> 1:04:58.720 to do an interview. That six great, and I'm gonna 1:04:58.880 --> 1:05:01.080 you know, I'll reach a lot of people. And I 1:05:01.560 --> 1:05:04.240 see artists today and you know, if they don't do 1:05:05.160 --> 1:05:08.520 three four selfies a day and and do you know, 1:05:08.600 --> 1:05:12.360 you're you're you know, Twitter feeds and all this other stuff. 1:05:13.320 --> 1:05:15.680 You know, you're you're trained to do that, and of 1:05:15.680 --> 1:05:17.880 course it makes perfect sense you you kind of have 1:05:17.960 --> 1:05:20.080 to do that. But think about the generation before you 1:05:20.080 --> 1:05:22.440 They said that about you, like, I can't believe what 1:05:22.440 --> 1:05:25.080 they have to do now. Again, we talked about cycles 1:05:25.560 --> 1:05:28.600 that people were saying the same thing about from the sixties. 1:05:28.880 --> 1:05:30.840 I really didn't we really didn't have to do anything 1:05:30.880 --> 1:05:33.000 too much during the day. I'm like, I just think 1:05:33.040 --> 1:05:34.680 you have to be on a you gotta be on 1:05:34.680 --> 1:05:39.000 your phone. It's just you know, if to compete. And 1:05:39.000 --> 1:05:40.600 and then the Twitter thing, you know, you're like, we 1:05:40.680 --> 1:05:44.080 got a president who's commenting seven eight times a day. 1:05:44.320 --> 1:05:46.800 I don't even have Twitter, you know, Like I had 1:05:46.880 --> 1:05:49.920 Twitter briefly, and I was like, I can't believe I'm 1:05:49.960 --> 1:05:53.000 commenting on my own life. I can't believe it. Like 1:05:53.120 --> 1:05:58.440 that's something is separate from President Trump, because I just 1:05:58.800 --> 1:06:03.480 talking about me in that way. I just I find 1:06:03.480 --> 1:06:08.640 it that's a separate issue. But the the this generation 1:06:08.720 --> 1:06:12.480 that is filming itself and commenting on itself as they 1:06:12.520 --> 1:06:14.800 live their lives, you know. And I've done, you know, 1:06:14.800 --> 1:06:17.160 and I was just just two. I did two weeks 1:06:17.160 --> 1:06:18.960 in Europe with a c m A right into the 1:06:18.960 --> 1:06:24.880 Songwriter series, and I've you know, I've took pictures and 1:06:25.040 --> 1:06:28.360 you know, Stockholm and you know, two funky places and 1:06:28.400 --> 1:06:31.560 sculptures and and uh and Leavi. You know, like we 1:06:31.560 --> 1:06:33.760 would be we'd be at summer and he'd go, Dad, Okay, 1:06:34.280 --> 1:06:36.080 you know, take a picture. It's I gotta do a 1:06:36.080 --> 1:06:38.440 shot for you know, get this out. And I'd be like, okay. 1:06:38.480 --> 1:06:40.400 So then I'm the cameraman, you know, so I'm like 1:06:40.440 --> 1:06:41.680 part of the team. All of a sudden, I'm like 1:06:41.720 --> 1:06:43.440 doing the shot and then we're checking out and he's 1:06:43.480 --> 1:06:45.080 like I like that when I'm like, okay, we'll use 1:06:45.120 --> 1:06:47.600 that one, and I'm thinking wow. So so that's sort 1:06:47.640 --> 1:06:49.720 of the amicable, positive way of looking at But the 1:06:49.760 --> 1:06:52.120 other side, it's just the pressure for these young people, 1:06:52.240 --> 1:06:56.520 you know, like, oh my god, it's trained. It's it's 1:06:56.560 --> 1:06:59.880 the only thing that I know. Yeah. So to me, 1:07:00.400 --> 1:07:02.440 it's like if I never had a television, what I 1:07:02.480 --> 1:07:06.040 missed television. I've never not known that I had to 1:07:06.080 --> 1:07:10.680 digitally be on the forefront. Yeah, that's always been a constant. 1:07:11.200 --> 1:07:14.640 So to me, it's not weird. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and 1:07:14.680 --> 1:07:16.360 I hear what you're saying, and I mean and I 1:07:16.400 --> 1:07:18.880 get it, and I know, I don't think leeve I 1:07:18.920 --> 1:07:21.480 think it's weird, you know. And and and it's funny too, 1:07:21.480 --> 1:07:24.080 because there's a kind of a there's a fellowship too 1:07:24.160 --> 1:07:27.320 within there, like the way that you like other people's things, 1:07:27.360 --> 1:07:31.040 you know, And I do have Facebook, and I'm you know, 1:07:32.000 --> 1:07:35.440 I definitely liked. I mean, I want to like if 1:07:35.480 --> 1:07:37.520 I'll see something, you know, people who put out a 1:07:37.560 --> 1:07:40.000 record or they've done something, or they're playing and their 1:07:40.120 --> 1:07:44.600 picture or their their dog or somebody. You know. I 1:07:44.720 --> 1:07:46.040 you know, I'm enough a part of it. I'm not 1:07:46.200 --> 1:07:48.760 completely out of it, but I'm I feel a little 1:07:48.800 --> 1:07:53.080 bit out of it. You know, you feel generationally a 1:07:53.120 --> 1:07:56.240 little bit out of it. I think at some point 1:07:56.320 --> 1:07:58.560 we all should start to feel generationally a little bit 1:07:58.560 --> 1:08:01.120 out of it. That's probably an actual, isn't it. It is? 1:08:01.280 --> 1:08:04.000 It is because I remember, like with my mom and dad, 1:08:04.040 --> 1:08:06.600 you know that when they would listen to my music, 1:08:06.840 --> 1:08:09.440 and they were huge fans and they were so supportive, 1:08:09.440 --> 1:08:12.200 and when they could travel, they came to everything, you know, 1:08:12.720 --> 1:08:15.200 and they love music so much, and they've made music, 1:08:15.280 --> 1:08:17.840 you know, and and but they you know, what they 1:08:17.840 --> 1:08:21.840 like was the ballads. And I could play Born Fly, 1:08:22.000 --> 1:08:24.320 Ready to Run or you know or whatever, and and 1:08:24.360 --> 1:08:27.360 they would go, that's cool, you know, like yeah, that's yeah, yeah, 1:08:27.360 --> 1:08:29.040 And I could tell they were like kind of getting it. 1:08:29.360 --> 1:08:31.200 And then you'd sit down at the piano, and if 1:08:31.240 --> 1:08:33.240 I get the piano and I'd played Blessed the Broken 1:08:33.320 --> 1:08:36.960 Road or um or over my Shoulder or something, you know, 1:08:37.080 --> 1:08:42.679 and they would go, yeah, that's it because they came 1:08:42.760 --> 1:08:45.240 from an age of ballads, you know, where the ballot, 1:08:45.520 --> 1:08:48.200 you know, and all the singers you'd have a song, 1:08:48.479 --> 1:08:50.840 and the song you'd have a song, and like you'd 1:08:50.880 --> 1:08:53.800 have a Burt backrock song for example, you know, well, 1:08:53.880 --> 1:08:55.960 I do know that's what I'm thinking of a Karen, 1:08:57.000 --> 1:09:00.760 But there's what's a good Burt Back correct song? Is 1:09:00.760 --> 1:09:04.720 he saying rain drops keep falling? But let's say that. 1:09:04.800 --> 1:09:07.080 Let's take that song, okay, rain drops keep falling on 1:09:07.200 --> 1:09:12.839 my head, and you'll have um ten different pop singers 1:09:12.880 --> 1:09:15.920 like Sinatral do a version, and then you know, Karen 1:09:15.960 --> 1:09:18.839 Carpenter will do version, and they do have you know whomever, 1:09:19.320 --> 1:09:21.600 and the songs you'd have songs like that. They just 1:09:21.640 --> 1:09:24.840 had this breadth and and I just think that was 1:09:24.880 --> 1:09:27.120 a generation that looked at you know, you might call 1:09:27.160 --> 1:09:31.479 it crooning or um and so certain kinds of things 1:09:31.479 --> 1:09:35.400 like rhythmic ideas that were real specific to a particular 1:09:35.400 --> 1:09:38.360 period of time that I think, my think for my 1:09:38.400 --> 1:09:39.840 folks a lot of that, which is sort of they 1:09:39.880 --> 1:09:42.280 just wouldn't catch it. I've never done this before. But 1:09:42.320 --> 1:09:44.920 what I want to do in a few months I 1:09:44.920 --> 1:09:47.439 want to have I've never anything back again. I want 1:09:47.439 --> 1:09:49.360 to have you back, and I will have to come 1:09:49.360 --> 1:09:52.000 back because for me, this has been it. I never 1:09:52.040 --> 1:09:55.800 know where he was going, but I feel like philosophically, 1:09:55.880 --> 1:09:58.040 we've talked about a lot of things. Yeah, I just 1:09:58.040 --> 1:09:59.559 want to run these songs real quick and we'll get 1:09:59.560 --> 1:10:01.280 to all this at a later points. So you wrote, 1:10:01.560 --> 1:10:06.200 first of all, you put out Bless the Broken Road yourself. Yeah, 1:10:06.280 --> 1:10:07.519 well I didn't put it out. I put it out 1:10:07.520 --> 1:10:09.360 on an album and that album also had one of 1:10:09.400 --> 1:10:11.360 these days, which but you put the album out. I 1:10:11.360 --> 1:10:14.240 mean it was out there people, Yeah, they could consume it. 1:10:14.600 --> 1:10:24.240 How did the flats get it? I just to this day. 1:10:24.240 --> 1:10:26.519 I mean that that and the song moving On or 1:10:27.000 --> 1:10:30.280 like two of my absolute favorite. The simplicity of the 1:10:30.320 --> 1:10:32.600 way they did that song, it was just killed me. 1:10:33.120 --> 1:10:34.800 You know a lot of people did the song. You know, 1:10:34.840 --> 1:10:38.519 Melody Crittenden did it on her asylum and she actually 1:10:38.560 --> 1:10:40.559 put out as a single. And I died in the 1:10:40.600 --> 1:10:42.200 forties and I thought that was the end of it. 1:10:42.240 --> 1:10:44.720 And Jeff Hannah and I, you know, well, you keep 1:10:44.720 --> 1:10:47.559 pitching it. It got pitched by a lot of people. 1:10:47.600 --> 1:10:50.479 Tracy Gershawn and a woman be the name of Michelle 1:10:50.479 --> 1:10:53.160 Berlin at BMG kept put pitching it and and then 1:10:53.240 --> 1:10:55.160 Jeff and I would pitch the song all the time 1:10:55.160 --> 1:10:57.800 to different people, and I think, I think, you know, 1:10:58.120 --> 1:11:00.000 Brooks and Donne took a stab at it. I believe 1:11:00.040 --> 1:11:02.160 one own it took a look at it. A lot 1:11:02.160 --> 1:11:04.559 of people looked at it. And the you know, in 1:11:04.760 --> 1:11:07.920 early on, I used to write a lot with Flats, 1:11:08.200 --> 1:11:10.600 the guys when their first three records, you know, and 1:11:10.640 --> 1:11:13.760 I had a number of songs on their albums um 1:11:13.800 --> 1:11:15.519 and they used to always say to me, Okay, we 1:11:15.600 --> 1:11:17.240 love that Blessed the Broken Road, because the thing about 1:11:17.240 --> 1:11:19.360 Blessed the Broken Road is it. And this is when 1:11:19.360 --> 1:11:21.960 I suddenly realized that it was it was going to 1:11:22.040 --> 1:11:24.720 have a life of its own. Was that, you know, 1:11:24.800 --> 1:11:29.519 my wife's a minister, okay, and then and I, you know, 1:11:29.880 --> 1:11:31.880 and pretty well known, and she does lots of really 1:11:31.880 --> 1:11:34.920 interesting stuff. She's the founder of Thistle Farms, and and 1:11:35.240 --> 1:11:36.960 she actually does more touring than any of us now 1:11:37.000 --> 1:11:39.639 by the way, she's far more involved, she's going far 1:11:39.640 --> 1:11:43.080 more national than anyone in the family. But um, you know, 1:11:43.120 --> 1:11:44.960 for years and years I was I was playing weddings. 1:11:45.200 --> 1:11:47.680 I realized, I mean, she would do weddings, but I was. 1:11:47.800 --> 1:11:49.559 I can't tell you how many weddings I was doing. 1:11:49.920 --> 1:11:52.840 And I got an award in the mail for like 1:11:52.960 --> 1:11:57.000 sheet Music Song of the Year, and I realized that 1:11:57.280 --> 1:12:00.080 we hadn't without meaning to we pop. We dropped it 1:12:00.120 --> 1:12:04.400 into a nerve people getting married later and you're going 1:12:04.439 --> 1:12:06.880 through a second marriage, third marriage, you know, or even 1:12:07.120 --> 1:12:09.800 you know, I got married. I was twenty seven years old, 1:12:10.000 --> 1:12:13.640 you know, I'd had relationships, She'd had relationships, you know, 1:12:14.120 --> 1:12:18.960 and reclaiming love what that is is is something of 1:12:19.000 --> 1:12:21.840 our time. It's different. It's not what my parents are, 1:12:21.880 --> 1:12:24.479 you know, as we all know folks, would you know, 1:12:24.520 --> 1:12:26.600 get married out of high school, certainly get married right 1:12:26.640 --> 1:12:30.120 out of college, and and that I didn't mean to 1:12:30.160 --> 1:12:35.120 write that song in that sense, but I realized, oh damn, 1:12:35.400 --> 1:12:39.360 we've really hit a vein, you know. Um, and the 1:12:39.720 --> 1:12:43.840 that song kept getting pitched. And my understanding is the 1:12:43.960 --> 1:12:47.519 Flats Guys on their last record with the Management production 1:12:47.520 --> 1:12:50.240 team that they had. They did an album called Feels 1:12:50.280 --> 1:12:53.160 Like Today, which I believe, I don't know if it's not, 1:12:53.200 --> 1:12:56.360 it's close. It's probably now there biggest selling record. I 1:12:56.400 --> 1:12:59.920 would think they were. The first song went out a 1:13:00.040 --> 1:13:04.320 fantastics on Fields Like Today that whatever. But and that 1:13:04.360 --> 1:13:07.280 song didn't go like number one or top five even 1:13:07.280 --> 1:13:10.200 and it was considered a massive, you know, setback. And 1:13:10.280 --> 1:13:12.960 I understand um because I was out of the country 1:13:13.000 --> 1:13:15.800 at the time that summer that that that the label 1:13:15.880 --> 1:13:18.000 was thinking of maybe trash and the record. That's what 1:13:18.040 --> 1:13:19.600 I've been told. I don't know if that's true. It 1:13:19.640 --> 1:13:22.400 might be apocryphal. I'm not sure. And I believe the 1:13:22.479 --> 1:13:26.000 label said, let's let's cut two more songs, Let's try that, 1:13:26.240 --> 1:13:28.200 Let's try that Blessed the Broken Road. You guys said 1:13:28.240 --> 1:13:30.160 you like oh, because they used always say, oh man, 1:13:30.160 --> 1:13:31.920 we're gonna do that song. And they would never do 1:13:32.000 --> 1:13:33.880 that song. And I would, you know, I'd be like, 1:13:33.920 --> 1:13:35.840 come on, guys, you know, and they would never do 1:13:35.880 --> 1:13:38.400 the song. And I remember I got back revisiting my 1:13:38.439 --> 1:13:41.599 family was living in uh my parents at that time 1:13:41.640 --> 1:13:43.599 living in Botswana where they worked for a long time, 1:13:43.600 --> 1:13:46.080 and so we remember getting back, and I remember Michelle 1:13:46.120 --> 1:13:48.400 Berlin running out of the doors of BMG and she says, 1:13:48.640 --> 1:13:50.639 they did it. And I'm like, they did what? Who's 1:13:50.680 --> 1:13:53.439 they and what do they do? She said, they did it, 1:13:53.640 --> 1:13:55.519 and they're gonna put it out as a single, and 1:13:55.520 --> 1:13:57.799 I'm like, what. Blessed the Broken Road? And I remember 1:13:57.800 --> 1:13:59.479 the first time I heard it. I mean I literally 1:13:59.479 --> 1:14:01.240 hair went up my arms, you know, and you don't 1:14:01.840 --> 1:14:04.240 you don't always feel that at all, but it was 1:14:04.320 --> 1:14:08.519 so pure and beautiful. It just was outstanding. But that's, 1:14:08.720 --> 1:14:11.320 you know, that's the story that I heard about it. 1:14:13.080 --> 1:14:24.760 So the Dixie Chicks to that one? How about this one? 1:14:25.120 --> 1:14:27.040 How did you get with the chicks? As you called them, 1:14:27.040 --> 1:14:29.760 I wouldn't call chicks the chicks the Dixie Chicks. They 1:14:29.880 --> 1:14:32.400 I mean, I was I was kind of being let go. 1:14:32.800 --> 1:14:36.080 I was being let go by Sony and then they 1:14:36.080 --> 1:14:38.559 were coming in. So one of my guys, I have 1:14:38.600 --> 1:14:41.400 to two guys that during that period of my life, 1:14:41.400 --> 1:14:43.080 I had two guys that were really my champions, one 1:14:43.120 --> 1:14:46.000 with Scott Simon and the other was Paul Whorley. So 1:14:46.160 --> 1:14:49.920 one time Scott and Paul ran Sony and that's when 1:14:49.960 --> 1:14:52.639 I got signed. They you know, when my friends became 1:14:52.720 --> 1:14:55.760 record president. So Scott was a great publisher. Of course 1:14:55.760 --> 1:14:58.759 he subsequently was a great manager, has is a manager RPM, 1:14:58.800 --> 1:15:01.679 you know, Tim mcgrawn, um. And then of course Paul 1:15:01.680 --> 1:15:04.800 really is one of the greatest producers that ever worked 1:15:04.800 --> 1:15:08.439 in this town. And while I was being flushed out, 1:15:08.760 --> 1:15:10.640 they had moved on and someone else had come in 1:15:10.640 --> 1:15:13.800 to take over Sony. But they're still my friends. And 1:15:13.960 --> 1:15:18.400 so when the Chicks, the Dixie Chicks got signed, um, 1:15:18.880 --> 1:15:22.719 they that's really how I got set up to write 1:15:22.760 --> 1:15:25.719 with them, because the Dixie Chicks told me they knew 1:15:25.760 --> 1:15:29.960 my record, which although it didn't sell very well, um 1:15:30.000 --> 1:15:32.519 it did. We did a weird campaign where instead of 1:15:32.560 --> 1:15:34.519 putting a single out and then following it with press, 1:15:34.800 --> 1:15:36.920 we did six months of press, giving the album to 1:15:37.040 --> 1:15:40.720 people and then we did so it was really kind 1:15:40.720 --> 1:15:43.080 of an ask backwards kind of approach. But what it 1:15:43.120 --> 1:15:44.880 did do is it was like it got me a 1:15:44.920 --> 1:15:47.439 lot of publicity and promotion for the songs, many of 1:15:47.439 --> 1:15:51.280 which subsequently went on to get cut and um. And 1:15:51.360 --> 1:15:53.040 so I really look at it like it was like 1:15:53.080 --> 1:15:55.240 the most expensive publishing demo ever, you know, in a 1:15:55.280 --> 1:15:57.800 weird way, because That's why I got I got to 1:15:57.840 --> 1:15:59.680 play with them, because if you listen to songs, some 1:15:59.720 --> 1:16:01.679 of the songs on the record all in good time 1:16:02.479 --> 1:16:08.599 um their real roots, banjo grooves, folk meets soul meets 1:16:08.680 --> 1:16:12.559 you know, and that really is what the Dixie Chicks did, 1:16:12.600 --> 1:16:15.559 only they did it much better and in a way 1:16:15.600 --> 1:16:18.439 that was about to be eaten up by the country, 1:16:18.439 --> 1:16:20.200 and nobody saw it coming like I never caught a 1:16:20.200 --> 1:16:23.240 way before. And the first time I wrote with them, 1:16:23.280 --> 1:16:25.680 I wrote with Marty and I met her at Fido's 1:16:25.840 --> 1:16:28.240 in the village and she had a few hours in 1:16:28.320 --> 1:16:30.200 their back and their first single was out the cost 1:16:30.240 --> 1:16:33.599 of song of I Can love You Better than that 1:16:34.120 --> 1:16:37.960 I can love you Baby, I love you better. And 1:16:38.040 --> 1:16:39.800 that was when I and I. The thing is, I 1:16:39.920 --> 1:16:42.880 knew the dix Chicks because my cousin was a comptroller 1:16:42.920 --> 1:16:45.720 and Irvine and she had used to hire them when 1:16:45.760 --> 1:16:47.519 they were more of a writer's in the sky, you know, 1:16:47.680 --> 1:16:50.120 frills and cowboy hats, and they had that other singer, 1:16:50.400 --> 1:16:53.200 So I actually knew who they were, right And when 1:16:53.200 --> 1:16:55.559 I wrote with Marty, we were the first time we wrote, 1:16:55.600 --> 1:16:57.760 we wrote ready to run the first day, and I 1:16:57.840 --> 1:16:59.559 by the way. I eventually wrote with all of them, 1:16:59.560 --> 1:17:03.160 but Marty and I wrote many songs they only recorded too. 1:17:03.520 --> 1:17:06.040 But I wrote a lot of songs with her and 1:17:06.360 --> 1:17:08.960 uh and play it on the record. I played guitar 1:17:09.000 --> 1:17:13.240 and Ready to Run like that. It's a fine guitar 1:17:13.240 --> 1:17:15.680 playing up. I do say so myself. I wish I 1:17:15.720 --> 1:17:17.400 could say I played the band on that because that's 1:17:17.439 --> 1:17:23.760 a really killing Now from and this is a we'll 1:17:23.800 --> 1:17:25.360 do another hour in a few months. What's you come 1:17:25.360 --> 1:17:28.200 back over to the house if you don't mind something. Um, 1:17:28.240 --> 1:17:31.479 what we've learned from this is if you go hang 1:17:31.560 --> 1:17:35.599 out with enough satellite streaming a radio people and take 1:17:35.680 --> 1:17:38.479 them wine and give them massages, they'll play your songs. 1:17:39.560 --> 1:17:41.720 And that's running all And that's what you taught us. Yeah, 1:17:41.760 --> 1:17:45.120 that's yeah, but that's you know what that's been happening. 1:17:45.120 --> 1:17:49.320 It's like you know, they just they still do it 1:17:49.400 --> 1:17:53.080 just has to be. It's just different. Everything, everything's always 1:17:53.520 --> 1:17:56.679 there's always a thing. I really appreciate the time. Yeah, 1:17:56.720 --> 1:18:00.720 thank you, Bobby, thank you, congratulations on everything and um 1:18:00.720 --> 1:18:03.920 that you've done. And it's sometime when we do if 1:18:03.960 --> 1:18:06.200 we do get to talk again, I want to ask 1:18:06.240 --> 1:18:08.639 you some questions. I think that'd be a fantastic because 1:18:08.640 --> 1:18:09.800 I want to the answer. I want sign you're a 1:18:09.800 --> 1:18:12.000 smart as you. But I love to answer questions that way. 1:18:12.000 --> 1:18:14.639 I don't I don't even think of the question you're 1:18:14.880 --> 1:18:17.040 you're good though. Yeah, next time we'll do that. That's 1:18:17.080 --> 1:18:19.400 been interesting. Let me interview you a little bit. I 1:18:19.479 --> 1:18:20.960 just got a couple of things that I was doing 1:18:20.960 --> 1:18:23.920 some reading about you, and you've got some pretty there's 1:18:23.960 --> 1:18:26.120 some pretty interesting stuff. I just want to ask some questions. 1:18:26.120 --> 1:18:29.280 But I think that's that's fair. All right, Hey, thank 1:18:29.280 --> 1:18:32.120 you very much, thank you. There there is wow. I 1:18:32.160 --> 1:18:35.280 look at this guy here episode eighty seven. That is 1:18:35.320 --> 1:18:37.800 Marcus Humming And uh, I just flew in from Europe 1:18:37.840 --> 1:18:39.840 and hopped off planned and came over to the house. 1:18:39.880 --> 1:18:42.200 So uh LEVI for us in the shout out, buddy, 1:18:42.200 --> 1:18:44.759 I'll see around. We'll see you guys next time. About