1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Previously on SNAFU. 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 2: We were looking for. 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,159 Speaker 3: We know, the documents proved for the first time that 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 3: the FBI undertook a program to harris and destroy new 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 3: left political organizations whose views. 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 4: We were very aware that the FBI surveillance and intimidation 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 4: were everywhere. 8 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 3: There has never been a full public accounting of FBI 9 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 3: domestic intelligence operations. Therefore, this committee has undertaken such an investigation. 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 5: It was a big deal what we did, and we 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 5: promised each other. We made promises and they were really 12 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 5: hard to keep. 13 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: Judy fine Gold had been part of the inside crew. 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: On March eighth, nineteen seventy one, she'd personally removed FBI 15 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: documents from the office at One Veteran Square. She and 16 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: her accomplices then leaked some of those files to the public. 17 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: In the weeks after, Judy was on edge, she was 18 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: nineteen years old and everyone she knew was speculating about 19 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: the burglary. 20 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 5: This was a big thing and everybody was talking about it, 21 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 5: and I didn't want to be around. 22 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: Everyone was asking who did it. Everyone had a theory, 23 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: and there were FBI agents everywhere hanging around, just waiting 24 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: for someone to slip up. 25 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 5: You know, That's what I would usually see in the 26 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 5: early morning, was them sitting in the cars on the 27 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 5: corner watching me. 28 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: So Judy left. She had a life in Philadelphia and 29 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: family on the East Coast, but she couldn't ignore her 30 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: instincts to get out of town and go west. 31 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 6: I committed a federal crime, so I wasn't taking any chances. 32 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 6: I changed fining and started my underground life. 33 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: Nobody, not her parents, not her friends, and none of 34 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: the burglars knew what had happened to Judy fine Gold. 35 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: She spent some time in New Mexico, eventually settling in Arizona. 36 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: She made friends and found loving communities, but she still 37 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: couldn't tell a soul who she was or what she'd 38 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: done in March of nineteen seventy one. 39 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 5: It's very lonely to carry a secret, and I think 40 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 5: it got to the point where I just I buried 41 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 5: it so deep I didn't even think about it. 42 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: As far as she knew, the FBI could catch up 43 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: with her at any moment and arrest her for treason, 44 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: Hiding seemed like the surest way to stay safe. 45 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 5: You get so used to living undercover that that becomes 46 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 5: the norm. 47 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: Still Judy couldn't help but check the news from time 48 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: to time. She was deeply moved when she read about 49 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: the church hearings, knowing they wouldn't have happened without her, 50 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: But she couldn't celebrate with anyone, so she danced alone 51 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: on a mountain side. As the years passed, Judy put 52 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: down roots in the Southwest. All the while, the FBI 53 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: never came knocking, but periodically Judy felt compelled to check 54 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: in and see if anyone out there was still talking 55 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: about Medburg. 56 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 5: It would occur to me now and then, and then 57 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 5: I would go to the library to see, Wow, I 58 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 5: wonder what happened with that? And so I just went 59 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 5: to the computer and looked up the website that I 60 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 5: would look up to find out, you know, just to 61 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 5: kind of check in with my past. 62 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 1: For years, Judy always got the same two search results. 63 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: One was about the Brandywine Peace Community's annual celebration of 64 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: the burglary in Philadelphia. The other was a small story 65 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: in a local paper. Until one day in twenty fourteen, 66 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: more than forty years after she went on the run, 67 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: Judy encountered a shocking headline, burglars go public. 68 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 5: When I pulled it up. Instead, I got like ten 69 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 5: page with ten articles a page or something about what 70 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 5: they were calling the burglary, and that there was a book. 71 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: A reporter named Betty Metzger had interviewed all of her 72 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: fellow burglars on the record for an upcoming book. 73 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 5: I was horrified. I mean, the earth actually moved under 74 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 5: my feet, you know, I felt emotionally, I could hardly agree. 75 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 5: I just could not believe it. I just walked around 76 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 5: by myself. 77 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: Judy spent the day in a haze. Later that evening, 78 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: still feeling shocked and betrayed, she finally confided in a 79 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: friend about what she'd done. She had kept the secret 80 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: of the media burglary for forty three years, and now 81 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: it was out. I'm Ed Helms, and this is Snappo, 82 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: a show about him History's greatest screw ups. This is 83 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: season two Medburg, the story of a daring heist and 84 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: the colossal FBI snaffoo it exposed. Today, the fallout from 85 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: the Church hearings, lessons learned and maybe forgotten, and finally, 86 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: the enduring legacy of Medburg. When the Church Committee hearings 87 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: concluded in nineteen seventy five, Jay Aggar Hoover's secret FBI 88 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: was no longer a secret. After the hearings exposed the 89 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: bureaus decades long abuses of power to a shocked and 90 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: horrified American public. The only remaining question was okay, so now, 91 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: what was anything actually going to change? US Attorney General 92 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: Edward Levy certainly hoped, so he pushed the new FBI Director, 93 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: Clarence Kelly, to clean up all the bullshit. This meant 94 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: reassessing thousands and thousands of domestic intelligence cases, most of 95 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 1: which had been opened under the auspices of co intel 96 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: pro not arouse. 97 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 7: Whatever committee says, come back up here with all those 98 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 7: eight thousand cases and justify it. 99 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: That's Neil Welch, the lead FBI agent in Philadelphia at 100 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: the time. Welch was a veteran agent who knew cleaning 101 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 1: up the house of Hoover would be a tall order. 102 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: The agency's old guard, Hoover's loyal army, resisted any oversight. 103 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: When congressional committees requested information, agents hid files or just 104 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: fed them false information. And as pressure mounted on Kelly, 105 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: the director apparently crumbled, and with Kelly gone, someone had 106 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: to deal with the mess at FBI headquarters. 107 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 7: This We're going to get the tough of zumb As reunify. 108 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 5: No, are you making that up? 109 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 2: At a sold together? 110 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 7: Our first CLASSSLB and here, get that guy and call 111 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 7: out we all he hates his stuff, Get him in there. 112 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: That first class SOB was Neil Welch, the one speaking here. 113 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: Welch had made a bit of a name for himself 114 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: within the halls of the FBI. He once negotiated the 115 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: surrender of a notorious killer holding five hostages for an hour. 116 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: The man held a gun to Welch's chest. When a 117 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: reporter asked how he managed to successfully negotiate the surrender, 118 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: Welch replied very carefully. Instead of going after draft dodgers, 119 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: activists and journalists, Welch went after you know, actual criminals. 120 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: He investigated mobsters and corruption. He hated co intel pro tactics, 121 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: and he kind of despised Hoover. The feeling was mutual. Apparently, 122 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: Hoover once placed Welch on probation because Welch refused to 123 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,559 Speaker 1: let his agents participate in co intel pro In other words, 124 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: Welch was the perfect de SOOB to clean up a 125 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: post Hoover FBI Welch's task was to determine which of 126 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: the thousands of FBI surveillance cases should stay open. The 127 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: new Attorney General made it clear only cases that involved 128 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: actual criminal conduct or presented evidence of clear and present 129 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: danger should remain active. All others should be shut down immediately. 130 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 7: These are cases that they're going on, and there in 131 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 7: some dark, bingy corner in the domestic Intelligence section, they 132 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 7: were carry oors from prehistoric times, really, and they were 133 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 7: still once just started these kinds of things. 134 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 2: They never saw. 135 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: What Welch means is that if anyone had been identified 136 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: as a person of interest for any reason as far 137 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: back as the Cold War, the FBI was still actively 138 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: surveilling them and maintaining files on them. 139 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 2: But no more. 140 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,599 Speaker 7: I said to the field losses, can you justify this? 141 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 7: Have they committed any criminal offenses? I gave him on 142 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 7: the outline of what they had to do to qualify, 143 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 7: and they just. 144 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: Disappeared, one by one. Thousands of cases vanished practically overnight. 145 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: Our old pal Carl Stern, who you may remember was 146 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: the first one to get the real dirt on co 147 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: Intel Pro, covered this astonishing development on NBC News. 148 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 3: Kelly brought some real news to the Committee, announcing a 149 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 3: ninety seven percent cutback in domestic security investigations. That's a 150 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 3: cutback from more than twenty thousand active investigation. 151 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: For the first time in decades, Jay Edgar Hoover's culture 152 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: of fear, intimidation, and secrecy no longer defined the FBI. 153 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: In the wake of the Church Committee hearings, new Director 154 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: Clarence Kelly understood the old ways had to change. There 155 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: would be no more threatening congressman with sex tapes or 156 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: writing poison pen letters to ruin reputations. Moreover, it was 157 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: time for the FBI to own up. On ABC News, 158 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: Ted Copple reported on the new FBI director's historic apology. 159 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 3: FBI Director Clarence Kelly today for the first time publicly 160 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 3: apologized for past FBI and mis conduct. 161 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 8: We are truly sorry, said Kelly, and. 162 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 3: He added we recognize errors and have learned from them. 163 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: Thanks Clarence. Better late than never, I guess, but let's 164 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: be clear, serious damage had been done. 165 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 9: One of the most damaging accomplishments of Hoover's FBI, ironically, 166 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 9: was the destruction of the FBI's law enforcement capacity. 167 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: This is Betty Medsker. 168 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 9: Everything it did was outside of the law, whether you're 169 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 9: talking about surveillance without cause, physically harming individuals, and even 170 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 9: assisting in murdering dissidents, usually black people. The generation's long 171 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 9: quest by Black Americans to claim basic rights was delayed 172 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 9: for decades by an FBI director who cautioned every president 173 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 9: he served under not to support African Americans in their 174 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 9: efforts to obtain their rights, because he said those efforts 175 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 9: were promoted by communists, and that was all that needed 176 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 9: to be said to make a president refuse to support 177 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 9: civil rights. Imagine what an enormous roadblock it was for 178 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 9: the FBI director to say, don't touch these movements. They're dangerous, 179 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 9: they're supported by communist. 180 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 2: The harm it was done, the effect that that is 181 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 2: still alive today. 182 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: That's Omar Barber, a former Black panther you heard in 183 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: the last episode. 184 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: It simply was to criminize the whole black community, because 185 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 2: it was a crimination of a people, a race of people, 186 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 2: not just the organization that may be and represented those people. 187 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,239 Speaker 2: Cointelpro was a two of the ruling class to suppressed 188 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,599 Speaker 2: people who were aspiring to try to be free and 189 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 2: try to find their freedom and liberation. 190 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: Levy Welch and others also acknowledged that, in addition to 191 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: being racist, creepy, invasive, and downright or Wellian, blanket surveillance 192 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: didn't work. 193 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 9: These mesthods are easy and often mindless, but they do 194 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 9: not lead to greater safety. Instead, they lead to violations 195 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 9: of basic civil rights of countless Americans. Levy's guidelines were 196 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 9: good in that they could lead to to this kind 197 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 9: of reform that made it impossible for informants to go 198 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 9: after people without any intention of prosecution and only harm 199 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 9: in mind. 200 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: It seemed like people were actually learning some lessons from 201 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: Cointel pro To Neil Welch, the most important lesson was clear, 202 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: and the. 203 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 7: Lessons is that the government can't be trusted to do this. 204 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,719 Speaker 7: It just proves that the government will be stupid and 205 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 7: unresponsible in many instances. 206 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: And how they gather that intelligence. 207 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 8: They'll keep it going too long, It'll be a widespread 208 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 8: net rather than a narrowly focused one. They won't use 209 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 8: the least intrusive means, They'll use drag net procedures. 210 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 7: This is a very sensitive area. 211 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 4: I think the record. 212 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 7: Proves that they cannot be relied upon to do it 213 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 7: without independent monitoring. 214 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: Some accountability. 215 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 7: I shouldn't be surprising to anybody that. 216 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 2: The FBI was doing those things. 217 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 7: Yeah, you can almost guarantee that it all happened. Again, 218 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 7: the intentions of the most honorable, proper people can go astray. 219 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: The burglary led to a profound change at the FBI, 220 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: something the burglars probably couldn't have even imagined when they 221 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: first decided to break into that office. By the late seventies, 222 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: they had reason to hope the abuses they'd uncovered would 223 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: no longer be possible. The rule of law would finally 224 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: apply to the FBI, But it wasn't long before there 225 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: was new cause for concern. 226 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 9: The concern about whether these guidelines could have lasting impact 227 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 9: was verified as soon as Reagan became president. 228 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 10: Recently, we've passed through a painful era in American history 229 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 10: when it seemed that many of our proudest values and 230 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 10: most important institutions were called into question. 231 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: During his run for president in nineteen eighty, Ronald Reagan 232 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: vowed to undo Attorney General Levy's guidelines on surveillance that 233 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: had come out of the church hearings. 234 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 9: He had campaigned in part on his wish to unleash 235 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 9: the FBI and as soon as he became president that 236 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 9: started to happen. 237 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: Reagan ordered his Attorney general to loosen controls. He lowered 238 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: the bar for launching investigations, and he diminished the Attorney 239 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: general's powers of oversight. What do you call it when 240 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: you reform a reform? I guess a return to form. Yeah, 241 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: that works. The FBI once again had an unnerving amount 242 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: of power, and it would stay that way for decades. 243 00:15:54,760 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: Then September eleventh, two thousand and one, our ability. 244 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 11: To prevent another catastrophic attack on American soil would be 245 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 11: more difficult, if not impossible, without the Patriot Act. It 246 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 11: has been the key weapon used across America in successful 247 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 11: counter terrorist operations. 248 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 9: When we come to nine to eleven, we just see 249 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 9: a very extreme version of that, where with the passage 250 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 9: of the Patriot Act and the demand from the Attorney 251 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 9: General and the President that you know, stop thinking in 252 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 9: terms of prosecutions. Your goal now is to prevent another 253 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 9: nine to eleven. And so the FBI went through this 254 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 9: radical change again that you're not aiming to prosecute, you're 255 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 9: aiming to prevent another major crime like nine to eleven 256 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 9: against the American people. 257 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: For the Bureau. Oh, it was a radical change in 258 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: the moment, but also I returned to the old way 259 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: of doing things once again. 260 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 9: Racial profiling came back with a vengeance, and Muslims became 261 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 9: what Black people had been under j Edgar Hoover, a danger. 262 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:24,719 Speaker 9: People were told that Muslims were danger to society. 263 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: And something else came back with a vengeance, blanket surveillance. 264 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 9: The FBI treated Muslims just as they had treated Black 265 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 9: people all over the country with surveillance of mosque and 266 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 9: surveillance of Arab American organizations and opera sting operations. What 267 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 9: the FBI did and other intelligence agencies too, we. 268 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: Must and did not. 269 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 9: Lead to helpful information, and great harm was done as 270 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 9: a result of that. As things went into high gear, 271 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 9: they create a massive electronic haste acts and without the 272 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 9: capacity to search those hast acts for information that might 273 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 9: have been helpful, so that the surveillance was done of 274 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 9: millions of Americans without the capacity to find out whether 275 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 9: there was valuable information. I think that fear makes it 276 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 9: possible for people to not care whether they're under surveillance 277 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 9: or whether their basic rights are being trampled, and especially 278 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 9: it makes it possible for them to not care about 279 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 9: needless harm being done to others, if in fact that 280 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 9: harm may help protect them Americans. 281 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: If it was so incredibly easy the FBI to trample 282 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: on fundamental American rights back in the days of rotary 283 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: phones and eight track cassettes, then what about today? These days, 284 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: surveillance technology that would have been unimaginable to hoover is everywhere, 285 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: and governments, corporations, even individuals can use predictive algorithms, facial recognition, 286 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of other frankly terrifying technologies to 287 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: create staggeringly detailed profiles on all of us. In twenty thirteen, 288 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: Edward Snowden exposed that the NSA was gathering massive amounts 289 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: of personal data on Americans without warrants. During the twenty 290 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: sixteen election, a private firm called Cambridge Analytica acquired in 291 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: depth data from tens of millions of Facebook users without 292 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: their knowledge or consent, and used it to covertly manipulate 293 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: public opinion. And during the Black Lives Matter protests in 294 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, the New York City Police Department used facial 295 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: recognition software to surveil and track down demonstrators back In 296 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: the Hoover era, the FBI weaponized information they dug up 297 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: on activists. Today, our own personal data can also be 298 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: easily weaponized to intimidate, so misinformation, create deep fakes, even 299 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: incite civil unrest. There's a lot more to be said 300 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: about technology, surveillance and the need for oversight, which is 301 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: why we went and recorded an entire bonus episode about it. 302 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: You might remember Locke Johnson from our last episode. He 303 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: was Frank Church's special assistant. He and I had a 304 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: pretty good chat. Look for that bonus episode soon. For now, 305 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: suffice to say, it's more important than ever to learn 306 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: as much as we can from the story of Hoover, co, 307 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: Intel pro and the courageous burglars of Media Pennsylvania. 308 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 9: The most important thing is that the law enforcement agency 309 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 9: should obey the law and not have as a motivation 310 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 9: going after people because of their religious or their political beliefs. 311 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 9: The opening page of the FBI's website announces we protect 312 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 9: the American people and uphold the US Constitution throughout Jangar 313 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 9: Hoover's half century as director of the Bureau. Too often 314 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 9: since then, the Bureau has protected some types of people 315 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 9: much more than its protected others. One of the lessons 316 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 9: learned from revelations of that history were for transparency and accountability. 317 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 9: That's essential for the FBI to continue to operate as 318 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 9: it should. The Bureer should have a deep respect for 319 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 9: the expression of dissent, a basic right that is crucial 320 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 9: to keeping democracy alive. 321 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: On March eighth, nineteen seventy six, the statute of limitations 322 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: on the burglary expired. This would have been a great 323 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: moment for the burglars to get together and pop some champagne, 324 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: but none of them knew about it. For all they knew, 325 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: the g men were still waiting behind the next mailbox 326 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: to arrest them. Three days later, Special Agent Neil Welch 327 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: filed a memo to FBI Director Clarence Kelly on the 328 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: subject of Medburg. Quote, all logical investigation in this matter 329 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: has been conducted, Welch wrote, accordingly, this case is being 330 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: placed in a closed status, and that was it. After 331 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: five years, Medburg was closed. The FBI was never even 332 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,959 Speaker 1: close to catching the burglar. At one point they had 333 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: four hundred suspects. That group included all of our media 334 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: burglars except Bonnie Rains. But after subsequent rounds of elimination 335 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: based on interviews. Seven suspects remained and only one was 336 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: an actual media burglar, Bob Williamson, and there was never 337 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: enough evidence to charge any of them. The partial palm 338 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: print found in the FBI office was never matched to 339 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: Sarah Schumer. Investigators never found her. Glove agents had interviewed 340 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: burglar number nine and placed him under twenty four hour surveillance, 341 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: but they ultimately decided he knew nothing, and despite Bill 342 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: Davidon's role as the unofficial spokesperson for the media burglars, 343 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: he was cleared in nineteen seventy two, just a year 344 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: in change after the burglary. The following headline appeared in 345 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 1: the Philadelphia Evening Bulletin Three Air Force jets are sabotaged 346 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: at Willow Grove. It seemed on Memorial Day that the 347 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: crew at Willow Grove Naval Air Station had discovered that 348 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: three of its cargo planes had been rendered inoperable. Some 349 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: no good nick had tampered with them just before they 350 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: were scheduled to fly missiles over to Vietnam. On the 351 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: exterior of one of the planes, someone had painted a 352 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: peace symbol as well as the words bred not bombs 353 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: in big red letters the vandals who took credit the 354 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: Citizens Commission to Interdict War material. In another incident around 355 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: the same time, reporters received envelopes full of bomb casings 356 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: and caps. An accompanying letter was signed the Citizens Commission 357 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: to Demilitarize Industry. Our old friend Bill Davidan, the mastermind 358 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: of the original Citizens Commission to Investigate the FBI, was 359 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: up to his usual tricks. 360 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 12: I think not just the media, but I think a 361 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 12: lot of these kinds of actions were important to me 362 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 12: in just building that that sense that the struggle isn't futile. 363 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 1: Bill david On never stopped acting out against the war. 364 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: He wanted the public to know that despite the government's power, 365 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: Goliath was vulnerable to david especially if a lot of 366 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: David's banded together. His activist spirit stayed with him until 367 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: he passed away in twenty thirteen. 368 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 12: I think this was this quote of cameu of. 369 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 13: To keep alive the living society within Michelle of the 370 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 13: dying On when you sort of generally feel that not 371 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 13: only in the case of the prosecution of the Vietnam War, 372 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 13: but other things are involved forces that are so huge 373 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 13: in comparison to what we can actually influence, how do 374 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 13: you keep alive? And the struggle to influence them media, No, 375 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 13: I think we accomplished more than we had reason to 376 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 13: expect to go into a small field office. 377 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: The following year, Betty finally published her book, The Burglary, 378 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: The Discovery of j Edgar Hoover's Secret FBI. Every living 379 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: member of the burglary crew spoke to Betty except Judy. 380 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: Neither Betty nor the other burglars could figure out what 381 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: had happened to her. When Judy read that her accomplices 382 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: had come forward and confessed to the burglary, she was 383 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: stunned and hurt. 384 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 5: We promised each other. That was the devastation, we promised 385 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 5: each other. 386 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: It took a while for her to forgive the others 387 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: and come to grips with the story getting out. 388 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 5: You get so used to living undercover that that becomes 389 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 5: the norm. 390 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 2: And so. 391 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 5: I can tell you that I still carry trauma with me. 392 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 5: I mean, I just kept going, That's all I mean, 393 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 5: that's all we're doing. We just keep going. You go 394 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 5: through experiences you don't think you're going to live through, 395 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 5: and you live through them. So you have to figure 396 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 5: out how to keep going. I mean, I don't know. 397 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 5: I can't think of anything to regret. 398 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: As Judy recovered, she reconnected with her past life for 399 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: the first time. She met up with Keith in Philadelphia, 400 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: and she reunited with Bob, who was just one stayed 401 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: over in New Mexico. It felt like no time had passed. 402 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 5: It all like three years was like forty three minutes. 403 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: Bob fell in love with New Mexico around the time 404 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: of the Camden trial, and after the acquittal he moved 405 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: there for good. I was not interested in being an activist. 406 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: I wanted to figure out what I wanted to do 407 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: with the rest of my life. Today, Bob's feelings about 408 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: the burglary are complicated. On the one hand, he felt 409 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: his actions had sown distrust, maybe even and contributed to 410 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: the paranoia the FBI had set out to foster in 411 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: the first place. 412 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,479 Speaker 14: On the other hand, I feel privileged to have been 413 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 14: a part of it, because I know it was significant. 414 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: But I wouldn't ever presume. 415 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 14: To tell a generation of people that this is some 416 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 14: kind of model for how they should behave I have 417 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 14: two granddaughters. 418 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: My granddaughters know my story. 419 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 14: They think it's kind of cool. 420 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 15: You know, the last time we needed to change the 421 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 15: key on my front door, I did it myself. 422 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: Keith forsythe stayed busy. He ended up suing the Attorney 423 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: General over Medburgh. 424 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 15: I sued John Mitchell Forsyth v. Mitchell for illegally recording 425 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 15: my conversation without a search warrant. 426 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: Keith's case went all the way to the Supreme Court 427 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: and he won, but it left him underwhelmed. 428 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 15: The court said that we were right, but nothing's going 429 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 15: to happen to anybody at the Justice Department. 430 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: So after Camden, Keith Forsyth put away his lock picking 431 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: tools for good. He stayed in the Philadelphia area, got 432 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: married and raised two sons. Today, Keith plays guitar and 433 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: a few jazz bands, one called the jazz Heads populated 434 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: with other seventy year olds, but they're looking for a 435 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: new name after losing a founding member. I suggested the 436 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: hip replacements. 437 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 16: So I had a party this weekend and one of 438 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 16: my friends said referred to us as amateur burglars, and 439 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 16: I said we weren't amateur. 440 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 5: I said, we were really were studied how to do it. 441 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: After his days as a well, let's call him a 442 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: pro burglar, Ralph still kept his past under wraps. In 443 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: Betty's book, he went by the pseudonym Ron Durst, but 444 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one Ralph Daniel came clean and admitted 445 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: his role in the burglary. 446 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 16: I certainly hope that the example that we set will 447 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 16: encourage other people to take calculated risks for the things 448 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 16: that they think are really important, and that there are 449 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 16: things people won't take risks and perhaps make themselves uncomfortable 450 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 16: in the service of something that they believe is really valuable. 451 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 16: I think that it's a really good lesson in the 452 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 16: value of civil disobedience for the benefit of people. 453 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 17: The nation, our culture, political participation, and genuine and healthy 454 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 17: democracy goes way beyond something like voting. 455 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: In the nineteen sixties, Sarah Schumer had risked her life 456 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: during the Freedom Summer in Mississippi, but she calls the 457 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: act of resistance in media the most difficult, not because 458 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: of the night of the burglary itself, but the years after. 459 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: Sarah was never able to remember where she left that 460 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: glove or convince herself that she hadn't left fingerprints in 461 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: the FBI office, and she's been looking over her shoulder 462 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: ever since. When Betty approached her about doing the book, 463 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: Sarah agreed to tell her story, but only under a pseudonym. 464 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: This podcast is the first time she's speaking under her 465 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: own name. Our producer, Sarah Joyner asked her how it felt. 466 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 4: I wonder what it means to you now to be 467 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 4: able to say, yes, I am Sarah Schumer, and I 468 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 4: did that. 469 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 17: Who knows may turn on that I shouldn't be doing this, 470 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 17: shouldn't be using my name. 471 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: Turns out, committing a major federal crime has life altering 472 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: consequence winces even if you don't get caught. After the burglary, 473 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: Bonnie Rains had recurring nightmares of the FBI surrounding her 474 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: house because the personal toll was so heavy. Bonnie and 475 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: John swore off illegal acts of resistance. They viewed the 476 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: burglary as an aberration in an otherwise normal, law abiding life, 477 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: but they never lost their sense of urgency about injustice. 478 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: Bonnie and John hid in plain sight as parents then grandparents. 479 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: In twenty fourteen, when Betty's book revealed their secret for 480 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: the first time, they appeared on the front page of 481 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: the New York Times, John, looking solemn and professorial Bonnie 482 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: beaming with pride and a grand kid on either side 483 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: of them, both looking at screens. John Rains, Bonnie's partner 484 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: in crime, passed away in twenty seventeen. 485 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 4: Regular people can confront the abuse of power that that 486 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 4: really could happened. 487 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 5: You can't just be a passive citizen. 488 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 4: I was convinced about that, and what it meant was 489 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 4: that I was determined that as my life evolved, I 490 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 4: was going to find ways to continue to be vigilant. 491 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 4: And there have been a lot of reasons to do 492 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 4: that in our history. 493 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: Okay, so. 494 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 4: I'm going to ninety five from here, and then basically 495 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 4: we're going to West Front Street, right Veterans Square. 496 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: I guess you remember the address fairly well, well, I 497 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: think so. Last fall, our producer Stephen Wood took a 498 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: little field trip to the scene of the crime Bonnie 499 00:33:58,560 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: sat shotgun. 500 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 5: Turn right after Wells Fargo Bank on the right onto 501 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 5: South Orange Street. I see the courthouse right there, Wells 502 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 5: Fargo Bank. This is the main drags return turn right 503 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 5: onto West Front Street. Then you will arrive at your destination. 504 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 5: There's Keith. 505 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 2: There. 506 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: You are, right, ma'am, Yeah, thank you. 507 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 4: No, I'm meeting somebody, thanks a lot, Thank you, so 508 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 4: fancy meeting you here. 509 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 5: Stevens looking for a parking place. 510 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 9: Good, good, good, trying to stay upright. 511 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 15: Yeah, it's a good goal. Who had ever thought it 512 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 15: would come to this? 513 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 2: I know. 514 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: The State of Pennsylvania commemorated the fiftieth anniversary of the 515 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,479 Speaker 1: burglary with the unveiling of an historical marker that sits 516 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: just outside the building where it all went down. 517 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 4: I mean, the building looks exactly the same. 518 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 15: I don't see any any new construction or you know, 519 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 15: anything torn down. I don't think the courthouse has changed 520 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 15: at all. 521 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 4: No, and there are law offices now in the space 522 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 4: was the FBI off upstairs? 523 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 5: If you can that, because. 524 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 15: I won't swear it's the same carpets for. 525 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 7: Fifty years, though. 526 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 15: I don't think I'd be surprised, but you could be 527 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 15: right now, maybe it's a very durable carpet. 528 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: Fifty two years ago, the Media burglar has just walked 529 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,399 Speaker 1: through the front doors of one veteran Square in Media, Pennsylvania, 530 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: without anyone stopping them. They walked out carrying bulging suitcases, 531 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: not knowing that their actions were about to change the 532 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: country they loved democracy enough that they felt a sense 533 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: of duty to protect it. They valued their fellow citizens' 534 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: freedom so much that they risked their own. 535 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 9: The eight Burglars, what they did was just enormously important 536 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 9: in opening people's eyes. It's important to realize that even 537 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 9: when movements are successful, even when great success happens and 538 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 9: reforms come out of them, that it's very likely that 539 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 9: there's also going to be defeat, not far behind success. 540 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 9: But even more important, we should understand that must keep 541 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 9: going back and trying to defeat those forces that suppress democracy, 542 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 9: and that this is something that never ends. 543 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: Still, it shouldn't have been that goddamn easy for them 544 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: to just walk into the office of the greatest law 545 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: enforcement agency in the land and steal its secrets. As 546 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: it turns out fifty two years later, Yeah, it was 547 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: a little harder for Bonnie and Keith help you guys. Well, yeah, 548 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 1: we are you familiar with the history of this building, Ben, 549 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:35,399 Speaker 1: I mean I read here. 550 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:37,879 Speaker 2: Oh I'm not a master in the history. 551 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: We're doing a documentary about the event that's commemorated on 552 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: that historical marker, so we were hoping to actually get it. 553 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 1: But thank you, thank you so much. I appreciate it. 554 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 2: Maybe into the office where happened. 555 00:37:54,840 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: We've been there before, probably should have brought those laws picks. 556 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: Snafoo is a production of iHeartRadio, Film, Nation Entertainment, and 557 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 1: Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with Gilded Audio. This 558 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: season of Snafoo is based on the book The Burglary 559 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: The Discovery of Jay Edgar Hoover's Secret FBI, written by 560 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: Betty Metzger. It's executive produced by me Ed Helms, Milan Papelka, 561 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: Mike Valbo, Whitney Donaldson, Andy Chugg, Dylan Fagan, and Betty Metzger. 562 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: Our lead producers are Sarah Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Producer 563 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: is Stephen Wood. This episode was written by Albert Chen, 564 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,879 Speaker 1: Sarah Joyner, and Stephen Wood, with additional writing and story 565 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: editing from Alissa Martino and Ed Helms. Tory Smith is 566 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: our associate producer. Nevin Calla Poly is our production assistant. 567 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Charles Richter. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. 568 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: Sensitivity consult from Oloa Kemi Ala de Sui, editing, sound 569 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: design and original music by Ben Chubg, Engineering and technical 570 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: direction by Nick Dooley. Additional editing from Kelsey Albright, Olivia 571 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: Canny and Jimma Castelli. Foley theme music by Dan Rosatto. 572 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Alison Cohen, Daniel Welsh and Ben Rizak. 573 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: Additional thanks to director Joanna Hamilton for letting us use 574 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: some of the original interviews from her incredible documentary nineteen 575 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: seventy one. Finally, our deepest gratitude to the courageous Citizens 576 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: Commission to Investigate the FBI, Bill Davidon, Ralph Daniel, Judy Finegold, 577 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: Keith Forsyth, Bonnie Rains, John Rains, Sarah Schumer, and Bob Williamson.