1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720
Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

2
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,119
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

3
00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,160
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

4
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:13,920
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

5
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,040
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

6
00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:28,200
Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

7
00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,960
Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

8
00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:36,520
Speaker 3: super producer Paul, Mission control decand most importantly, you are you.

9
00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,240
Speaker 3: You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't

10
00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,120
Speaker 3: want you to know. Before we begin our exploration this evening.

11
00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,280
Speaker 3: If you have some time, if the spirit so moves you,

12
00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,440
Speaker 3: why not drop us a kind review on your podcast

13
00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,160
Speaker 3: platform of choice. It's a way to vote for us.

14
00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,800
Speaker 3: It's a free vote, and as we'll learn, elections are important.

15
00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,560
Speaker 4: Free and fair election in iTunes review form. Yes, thank

16
00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:04,360
Speaker 4: you for your service.

17
00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,840
Speaker 3: That's why Steve Jobs did the whole thing. I mean,

18
00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,760
Speaker 3: elections are kind of a hot topic, to say the

19
00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 3: least about it, and in some places they can be

20
00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,880
Speaker 3: downright dangerous. One of the things that human society has

21
00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,039
Speaker 3: always quarreled with is what we call the peaceful transition

22
00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,360
Speaker 3: of power. And you know, here in the United States,

23
00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:32,240
Speaker 3: it seems like we're continually in one campaign cycle or another.

24
00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,880
Speaker 3: You know, anybody listening you probably have received crazy cold

25
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:43,520
Speaker 3: call text messages proliferating in recent months that just say

26
00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:48,320
Speaker 3: something in all caps and then also donate money to us.

27
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,800
Speaker 4: I had a lovely lady knock on my door on

28
00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,000
Speaker 4: behalf of her husband who's campaigning for state senate here

29
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,120
Speaker 4: in Georgia, and I can't remember the tagline, but she left.

30
00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,240
Speaker 4: She signed off with his like campaign slogan, and I

31
00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:02,760
Speaker 4: thought it was very charming, and I, you know what,

32
00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,400
Speaker 4: I saved the handbill and I'll probably vote for him

33
00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:06,680
Speaker 4: just because she was so nice.

34
00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:07,440
Speaker 5: You know.

35
00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,799
Speaker 2: I'm into that somehow too. If there's somebody I could

36
00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,800
Speaker 2: see around town that I voted for, I feel like,

37
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:15,799
Speaker 2: I don't know, I did something for real.

38
00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,200
Speaker 3: I love that, you guys, know I without disclosing too

39
00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:23,160
Speaker 3: much personal info, I live walking distance to a library

40
00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:28,320
Speaker 3: where elections are held, and it's always cool because this

41
00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,040
Speaker 3: is just between us and the millions of us listening

42
00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:38,720
Speaker 3: along tonight. Those before and also immediately after elections, those

43
00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,919
Speaker 3: candidates just find excuses to hang out at the Library's

44
00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:46,600
Speaker 3: just so like to your point, Matt, so that they

45
00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,200
Speaker 3: can be seen as a member of the community.

46
00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,079
Speaker 4: And you know, and to be fair, some of them

47
00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:56,200
Speaker 4: very much are, especially in these local, smaller elections, Like

48
00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,639
Speaker 4: you know, they make a point of being community boosters

49
00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,040
Speaker 4: and showing face and going to those kinds of events.

50
00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,440
Speaker 3: And thanks to a fantastic message from our fellow conspiracy

51
00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,480
Speaker 3: realist Tay Gray, we have been exploring some strange stuff

52
00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,960
Speaker 3: about elections abroad. When everything works as it should, elections

53
00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,799
Speaker 3: are powerful and positive. They give the public agency. They

54
00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,600
Speaker 3: help us decide how we will be represented domestically and abroad.

55
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,040
Speaker 3: So with all this power on the table, it's not

56
00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,960
Speaker 3: really surprising that elections are always a ripe subject for conspiracies.

57
00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,720
Speaker 3: In tonight's episode, we're traveling the world to learn why

58
00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:40,160
Speaker 3: some people are convinced elections have become a tool of war.

59
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 3: Here are the facts, all right, let's put on our

60
00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 3: nerd policy walk hats. Yeah, of course I love the

61
00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:02,160
Speaker 3: term boffin. So to be a policy walk first off,

62
00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,240
Speaker 3: you have to have a garish bow tie every time

63
00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,280
Speaker 3: you're on CNN or Fox News or whatever.

64
00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,680
Speaker 4: Must I That's not really my style though, can I

65
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:12,440
Speaker 4: just I don't know where like a.

66
00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,640
Speaker 2: You can still wear the hat and you just have

67
00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,600
Speaker 2: to also wear the bow tie.

68
00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,800
Speaker 4: You could also do a bolo I do, thank you.

69
00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:21,800
Speaker 4: I was looking for alternatives. I love a bolo. I've

70
00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,200
Speaker 4: recently become a nolo bolo.

71
00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,720
Speaker 3: What would you wear, Matt as a policy walk.

72
00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,600
Speaker 2: I would just be completely naked to show.

73
00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:30,960
Speaker 5: I've got nothing to hide.

74
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,599
Speaker 3: Just don't let them stand up on the zoom call

75
00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,239
Speaker 3: or do or do? Let's really speak to the public.

76
00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:48,000
Speaker 3: Episode is about elections. Ten minutes off air that we

77
00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,600
Speaker 3: subjected our long suffering super producer to all of our

78
00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,680
Speaker 3: election jokes. But voting, though, Why is voting important?

79
00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:56,159
Speaker 5: Right?

80
00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,920
Speaker 2: Well, in democracies, the only way things done is if

81
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:02,880
Speaker 2: there's a big old vote.

82
00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,800
Speaker 3: Or the appearance thereof Hey, now, let's not be cynical here.

83
00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,440
Speaker 4: Democracy works as intended on paper every single time.

84
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,920
Speaker 3: Right, Look, we've nailed it there. It sounds like an

85
00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,120
Speaker 3: obvious question, but the answer is quite important. It's mission critical,

86
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,840
Speaker 3: especially in a functioning democracy. If imagine a world in

87
00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,719
Speaker 3: which for some reason, every eligible voter in the United

88
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,760
Speaker 3: States decided to abstain, just no one voted for president,

89
00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,960
Speaker 3: including the presidential candidates. It was zero to zero. That

90
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,960
Speaker 3: has never happened in an election. And if that did happen,

91
00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,720
Speaker 3: modern society could not move forward. There would be a

92
00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,520
Speaker 3: crisis point. It's such a weird hypothetical that the founding fathers,

93
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,120
Speaker 3: you know, found themselves in a found themselves in a

94
00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,440
Speaker 3: prisoner's dilemma. Right. People feel like they have to vote

95
00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,360
Speaker 3: even if they don't want to, because if they don't,

96
00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:03,520
Speaker 3: then someone else will.

97
00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we talked about this before. In the previous

98
00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,880
Speaker 2: presidential election in the United States, only sixty six percent

99
00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:13,920
Speaker 2: of eligible voters.

100
00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,520
Speaker 5: Voted, which is why I was so tight.

101
00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:17,919
Speaker 4: I mean, it makes sense, and that seems to be

102
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,600
Speaker 4: what's happening right now as well. Although we do have

103
00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,599
Speaker 4: the potential for maybe some folks that abstained last time

104
00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,040
Speaker 4: to maybe get out, you know, to the polls because

105
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,359
Speaker 4: of some sort of new excitement around particular candidate and

106
00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,000
Speaker 4: party or what have you. But it is interesting that

107
00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,640
Speaker 4: we're seeing these tight margins and that largely has to

108
00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,640
Speaker 4: do with folks just kind of not making time for it.

109
00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,120
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, guys, I didn't realize. This is from

110
00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,559
Speaker 2: the Pew Research Center. By the way, in the twenty

111
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,440
Speaker 2: eighteen what they call midterm elections here in the US,

112
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,480
Speaker 2: where if you don't live here that's when most of

113
00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,120
Speaker 2: the time there are votes for the Senate and the

114
00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,880
Speaker 2: House of Representatives, there's only a turnout of forty nine percent.

115
00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,919
Speaker 3: Right, because most people in the United States only vote

116
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,320
Speaker 3: when it's time to vote for the US president, which

117
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,960
Speaker 3: is wild. But part of that is, we could argue

118
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,120
Speaker 3: by insidious design here in this country, and indeed in

119
00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,200
Speaker 3: many other countries, there are a lot of powerful people

120
00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,640
Speaker 3: who for some reason or another would prefer that you

121
00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,680
Speaker 3: not vote at all. And in the US it is

122
00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,680
Speaker 3: entirely legal to just not do it, to just not participate,

123
00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,520
Speaker 3: because we don't have mandatory voting. Twenty one countries do.

124
00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:31,000
Speaker 5: Though.

125
00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,320
Speaker 4: Well, it's just interesting too, how of that sixty percent

126
00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 4: issue said in the main election or in the main

127
00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,480
Speaker 4: election Excuse me, I'm adding to the problem. The presidential

128
00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,880
Speaker 4: election last cycle, it's about fifty to fifty split down

129
00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:45,800
Speaker 4: the middle in terms of like you know who those

130
00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,240
Speaker 4: people support, which.

131
00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:48,640
Speaker 5: Just makes it really, really difficult.

132
00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:50,720
Speaker 4: And you see these I'm sorry I'm repeating myself, but

133
00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 4: it's astonishing how you have like margins of thousands of

134
00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,000
Speaker 4: votes that can like make all the difference.

135
00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and sometimes those chats that's hang, that's not.

136
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,520
Speaker 5: Chad Chad loves to hang. Yeah.

137
00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,400
Speaker 3: Look, voting laws vary from country to country, but generally speaking,

138
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:10,840
Speaker 3: if you want to vote in a country, you are

139
00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:15,400
Speaker 3: required to be an adult and a citizen in good

140
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,240
Speaker 3: legal standing. You have to be registered most times, and

141
00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,600
Speaker 3: you have to have documentation to prove it. That's a

142
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,800
Speaker 3: very that's something that becomes incredibly important when we look

143
00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,239
Speaker 3: at the ideas of election interference. I mean, look, also,

144
00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,080
Speaker 3: there are a lot of people in the US who

145
00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,240
Speaker 3: can't vote, children, felons, depending on the state.

146
00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:39,720
Speaker 4: Well, and not to mention many felons quote unquote, we're

147
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:44,000
Speaker 4: not able to vote under laws that have since been changed. Right, Like,

148
00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,280
Speaker 4: so people had their their were disenfranchised for years because

149
00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,480
Speaker 4: maybe a very small margin that led to a felony

150
00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,800
Speaker 4: marijuana possession, and now those laws have been changed, but

151
00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,160
Speaker 4: those people don't really get any recompense for that time

152
00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,240
Speaker 4: that they were not allowed to vote. I'm sorry, it's

153
00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,360
Speaker 4: just very interesting to me, like how that led to

154
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,400
Speaker 4: so many people not being able to vote, so many

155
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,960
Speaker 4: people largely affected who.

156
00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,200
Speaker 5: Maybe would have voted in a particular direction.

157
00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:14,280
Speaker 3: Let's sure think back to the horrors of polling tests. Right,

158
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:17,959
Speaker 3: how on earth is somebody going to be expected to

159
00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:23,880
Speaker 3: know Mandarin In the rural South, there are insidious attempts,

160
00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:29,520
Speaker 3: conspiracies to prevent people from voting. And before this sounds

161
00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:35,960
Speaker 3: to partisan, that runs across American history, that is an inarguable,

162
00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,079
Speaker 3: inextricable piece of the American experiment and as part of

163
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:45,080
Speaker 3: why voting is so controversial. The practice of elections often

164
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,520
Speaker 3: falls short of the theory of elections sometimes honest mistakes,

165
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,760
Speaker 3: like especially back before there were more robust methods of

166
00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,360
Speaker 3: accounting for votes, people just might mess up. They might

167
00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,120
Speaker 3: carry the wrong number across the equation.

168
00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,240
Speaker 4: Can I ask you, guys real quick, how do you

169
00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,360
Speaker 4: feel about the idea of mandatory voting? I think, based

170
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,440
Speaker 4: on what we've said thus far, probably would never happen here,

171
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 4: just because by design, like you said, some folks don't want.

172
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,360
Speaker 5: People to vote. But how do you feel about that?

173
00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,000
Speaker 4: I mean, we're required to, like pay taxes, we're required

174
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,280
Speaker 4: to do certain municipal things as a result of being

175
00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,040
Speaker 4: a citizen, and yet we're not required to exercise that

176
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,040
Speaker 4: most important you know, right.

177
00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,640
Speaker 2: If you could somehow make it simple and easy and

178
00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,080
Speaker 2: secure enough, then yeah, I mean, that would be awesome.

179
00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,440
Speaker 2: There's just a button. There are two buttons you got

180
00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,079
Speaker 2: to push a couple of times, you know, every four

181
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,760
Speaker 2: years or whatever, every two years. Sure, but I don't

182
00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:44,319
Speaker 2: I don't know.

183
00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:45,839
Speaker 5: I don't think the still see it happening.

184
00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,280
Speaker 3: I have been on a record I am one hundred

185
00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:54,439
Speaker 3: percent on board with mandatory voting so long as it

186
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,800
Speaker 3: could be simple and seamless and transparent. And I think

187
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,880
Speaker 3: answering those three factors is what makes it so difficult

188
00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,920
Speaker 3: for those in power in the US to ever co

189
00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,120
Speaker 3: sign something like this. I mean, you know, it's strange because,

190
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,440
Speaker 3: especially if you're a conspiracy realist of a certain age,

191
00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,600
Speaker 3: it's strange because you can see this increasingly divisive political

192
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,200
Speaker 3: climate right to the point where not too long ago

193
00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,480
Speaker 3: people were concerned there might be a second Civil war.

194
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,440
Speaker 3: Right now, when someone's candidate, you know, their chosen person

195
00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,440
Speaker 3: doesn't win an election, whether it's for president or whether

196
00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,400
Speaker 3: it's for like local city council person or cog catcher,

197
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:44,079
Speaker 3: right right then, many people, we would say, will immediately

198
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,760
Speaker 3: allege conspiracy. It's not that the public has spoken, it's

199
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,079
Speaker 3: not that someone has been honestly outvoted. It's that the

200
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,600
Speaker 3: system is rigged. And the weirdest thing is people often

201
00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,760
Speaker 3: do have legitimate grievances here, and part of those grievances

202
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,840
Speaker 3: come from the fact that the US has a weird

203
00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,880
Speaker 3: voting system. They're actually, if you're not from the US,

204
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,719
Speaker 3: we got it to just spend a little bit of time,

205
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,240
Speaker 3: make a little bit of space for this thing. There

206
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:17,840
Speaker 3: are two types of voting in presidential elections in specific,

207
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,200
Speaker 3: there's the popular vote, that's the one Jane and John

208
00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,640
Speaker 3: Q Blue Jeans can actually participate in. And then there's

209
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:30,480
Speaker 3: the electoral college, which is its own thing, and it's

210
00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,000
Speaker 3: supposed to be informed by the popular vote, but unless

211
00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,000
Speaker 3: you are an elector for your state, you know, get

212
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:38,400
Speaker 3: to choose.

213
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:39,520
Speaker 5: Another weird thing.

214
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,400
Speaker 4: I mentioned this guy a lot, and he's been on

215
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,760
Speaker 4: Daily Zeitgeist before, Jason Pargin. He makes these really great

216
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,240
Speaker 4: short Instagram videos, and he pointed out that, like what's

217
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,920
Speaker 4: going on right now in the US presidential election, with

218
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,079
Speaker 4: Kamala Harris getting that kind of last minute, you know, switcheroo,

219
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,199
Speaker 4: the amount of time that she has to campaign is

220
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,920
Speaker 4: much more along the lead lines of what happens in

221
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,520
Speaker 4: other countries that the election campaigning cycle in the US

222
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,120
Speaker 4: is really really bizarrely long, and that you don't see

223
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,559
Speaker 4: that in other countries. That hadn't really occurred to me,

224
00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:12,720
Speaker 4: but apparently that's the case.

225
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, back to the electoral college, guys, do you remember

226
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,400
Speaker 2: that Key and Peel like a mini sketch basically that

227
00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,000
Speaker 2: they did where they're playing basketball and Keegan Michael Key

228
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,760
Speaker 2: is like, yeah, you gotta make sure you vote, and

229
00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 2: Jordan Peele's.

230
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:26,840
Speaker 5: Like, yeah, okay, I'll vote.

231
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:27,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

232
00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,199
Speaker 2: He's like, cause you know, we're gonna have our fake vote,

233
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,480
Speaker 2: the public vote, and then it goes to the real vote.

234
00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,280
Speaker 2: He's like, wait what And then they explained the electoral

235
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,080
Speaker 2: college somewhat, so we know.

236
00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,360
Speaker 3: That the electoral college, it's just it's a it's what

237
00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,480
Speaker 3: we would call in entertainment, a choice. And I hope

238
00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:49,960
Speaker 3: you can hear the italics there.

239
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:50,719
Speaker 5: It is.

240
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,320
Speaker 3: It is a thing that remains controversial for good reason.

241
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,439
Speaker 3: And we often forget here in the United States that

242
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,760
Speaker 3: the US is not the world entire If you travel

243
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,559
Speaker 3: across the globe and witness the many other elections and

244
00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,839
Speaker 3: the many other countries, you will find disturbing accusations of

245
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,240
Speaker 3: conspiracy and corruption on pretty much every single continent. Other

246
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,520
Speaker 3: than Antarctica. And the only reason I'm saying other than

247
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:24,000
Speaker 3: Antarctica is because we don't have transparency or visibility into

248
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,560
Speaker 3: you know, whatever those scientists are voting for that like

249
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,000
Speaker 3: they might have accusations of corruption when it comes to

250
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,720
Speaker 3: you know, voting on that month's menu, right, and someone's

251
00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,120
Speaker 3: like you are burying the mac and cheese candidate. We

252
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,360
Speaker 3: don't know possible. So as a result, there's this huge

253
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:49,040
Speaker 3: industry of people, a rotating ensemble cast, dedicated to election monitoring.

254
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,680
Speaker 3: And the idea is that with election monitoring, you send

255
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,600
Speaker 3: a group of independent, third party observers to a country

256
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:03,120
Speaker 3: to watch the vote happen, starting you know before, like

257
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,720
Speaker 3: when they're in their version of a campaign season, and

258
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,800
Speaker 3: staying afterwards. And they're supposed to ensure again in theory

259
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,120
Speaker 3: that a given election is legitimate. Votes are counted accurately,

260
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,760
Speaker 3: Voters are not intimidated, nor threatened, nor prevented from accessing

261
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:23,160
Speaker 3: the polls. They vote their conscience. This is a beautiful thing,

262
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,520
Speaker 3: it's a beautiful idea. We also know that there are

263
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,520
Speaker 3: tons of ways to influence elections that are perhaps unethical

264
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:37,240
Speaker 3: but technically legal. The great dark art of electioneering. You know,

265
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,240
Speaker 3: lobbying groups. We got super packs here, which is a

266
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,800
Speaker 3: crazy thing. And then, weirdly enough, you guys, I was

267
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:48,920
Speaker 3: thinking about this, How bonkers is it that in the

268
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 3: United States celebrity endorsements have become such a big deal.

269
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,800
Speaker 3: People who are not qualified as you know, as policy

270
00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,720
Speaker 3: wonks or experts, people who are not super read up

271
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,280
Speaker 3: you know, on geopolitical concerns, but they made your favorite

272
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,920
Speaker 3: album of the past year. So yeah, the way they

273
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:10,200
Speaker 3: say you should vote.

274
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:10,920
Speaker 5: You might.

275
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,200
Speaker 2: You might just do it because hey, if they like it,

276
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,000
Speaker 2: maybe I should. There's maybe there's something I'm not seeing,

277
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,440
Speaker 2: but are there are other ways to mess with elections too,

278
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,160
Speaker 2: And a lot of it has to do with once

279
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,960
Speaker 2: you get in power, what other influence can you have

280
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,680
Speaker 2: on the power mechanism? So the other leavers of government

281
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,800
Speaker 2: that exist in whatever country you are currently running, which

282
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:34,440
Speaker 2: is a big part of what we're going to be

283
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:35,240
Speaker 2: talking about today.

284
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:40,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, hunt the nerds, hunt the judges right, control the

285
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,840
Speaker 3: means of production voting wise, And this is our question.

286
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,640
Speaker 3: Could a country weaponize another country's voting process? If so,

287
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:50,840
Speaker 3: what does that look like, What could it mean for

288
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,479
Speaker 3: the future? What exactly are zombie monitors.

289
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,880
Speaker 4: Oh, I certainly want to know, and we're all gonna

290
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:00,880
Speaker 4: find out together when we get back from a quick break.

291
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,600
Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy, all right, let's get in

292
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,080
Speaker 3: front of it. Sadly, zombie monitors are not, in fact

293
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:15,919
Speaker 3: undead lizards boom.

294
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:16,360
Speaker 5: Yes.

295
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 2: And before we get into that, let's kind of define

296
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:24,520
Speaker 2: what zombie zombie election monitors are. According to the National

297
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:29,600
Speaker 2: Endowment for Democracy, these are monitoring organizations that look like

298
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,359
Speaker 2: they're legitimate, but they actually are not. And they're willing

299
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:39,680
Speaker 2: to quote ignore internationally accepted norms about what constitutes free

300
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,359
Speaker 2: and fair democratic elections in order to create confusion about

301
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,000
Speaker 2: the authenticity of an election.

302
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, i'd agree with that, well said, And we've got

303
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,560
Speaker 3: to dive in, and to do that we have to

304
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,280
Speaker 3: learn the larger context at play here. Right, goes back

305
00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,000
Speaker 3: to what we're talking about, the idea of election interference.

306
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,800
Speaker 3: You might not know this, folks. The founding fathers of

307
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:08,879
Speaker 3: the United States a super like, a supergroup of absolutely

308
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 3: imperfect dudes. One of their primary concerns about threats to

309
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:19,000
Speaker 3: the American experiment was that foreign countries would interfere. That

310
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,560
Speaker 3: foreign powers, and let's be honest, they were mainly worried

311
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,000
Speaker 3: about European powers. They would that those powers might interfere

312
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,040
Speaker 3: with the vote. And they were so worried about this

313
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 3: that it influenced how they wrote the constitution. That's why

314
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,520
Speaker 3: we've got that one line that sounds kind of un

315
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,560
Speaker 3: American without context. You can't be president unless you're a

316
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,600
Speaker 3: natural born citizen, like you have to be born on US.

317
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,840
Speaker 4: Soil, just to like head off at the pass any

318
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,160
Speaker 4: threat of you know, like some sleeper agents or something

319
00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:56,440
Speaker 4: like that.

320
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,640
Speaker 5: Right, it's acting on the behalf of other interests.

321
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,239
Speaker 2: Thankfully we've gone around that because you can have as

322
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,359
Speaker 2: many advisors from any other country you want to.

323
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,720
Speaker 3: Mm hmmm, you love to see it. Yeah, you can also,

324
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,800
Speaker 3: of course, be bored on a US military installation abroad.

325
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,680
Speaker 3: That still counts for people who were following these kind

326
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,600
Speaker 3: of stories earlier. You know that it sometimes comes up

327
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:27,040
Speaker 3: as an idea that people float during an election. I

328
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 3: think most notably, or one I remember was when the

329
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 3: actor and later politician Arnold Schwarzenegger not Norman Schwarzkraft. Arnold

330
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:42,200
Speaker 3: Schwarzenegger was able to serve as governor right of California,

331
00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,360
Speaker 3: and people wanted him to run for president so much

332
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,240
Speaker 3: so that they floated the idea of changing the constitution,

333
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,920
Speaker 3: which is a super ambitious concept.

334
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 5: Well, floating and getting it done are two very different things.

335
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,680
Speaker 4: I sincerely doubt that would get bipartisans isn't there Also,

336
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,359
Speaker 4: doesn't this have to do with that emolument's clause that

337
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,200
Speaker 4: we've been hearing a lot about in the news over

338
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,680
Speaker 4: the last handful of years, The idea of not being

339
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,920
Speaker 4: allowed to accept gifts and you know, kind of from

340
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 4: foreign powers. And I know it's bigger than that, but

341
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 4: isn't that the just.

342
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was one of the other things they were

343
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,560
Speaker 3: really concerned about. They were concerned that there was vulnerability

344
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 3: to bribery that are very powerful foreign hostile force would

345
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,400
Speaker 3: be able to essentially buy out the courts, or buy

346
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,679
Speaker 3: out Congress, or own a president. And it turns out

347
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,240
Speaker 3: they were prescient about at least they were prescient in

348
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:45,080
Speaker 3: their concern about foreign interference, because research has proven beyond

349
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,520
Speaker 3: a shadow of doubt that other countries have spent a

350
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,320
Speaker 3: lot of time and money attempting to influence elections in

351
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,399
Speaker 3: the United States, and not always for the reasons we

352
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 3: might assume. Because we have to realize that these countries

353
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 3: exercise this asymmetric warfare. They don't think of themselves as

354
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,960
Speaker 3: the bad guys. They think of themselves as what we

355
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,280
Speaker 3: would call solution oriented. So Russia and China both waged

356
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,719
Speaker 3: information war in previous elections, and just this year, as

357
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 3: we're recording, in the evening of August thirtieth, twenty twenty four,

358
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 3: it appears that hackers in Iran, operating under the auspice

359
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 3: of the Revolutionary Guard, targeted the Trump campaign. I gotta

360
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 3: tell you, you know, I think we can all agree people,

361
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,920
Speaker 3: especially here in the US, often tend to have a

362
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,399
Speaker 3: knee jerk reaction to this stuff. Like if you're a

363
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,120
Speaker 3: fan of the Hillary Clinton campaign, you would dismiss accusations

364
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 3: of corruption as fake news. If you're a fan of

365
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 3: her opponent, Donald Trump in that campaign, you would tend

366
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 3: to do the same. You would be like this, these

367
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 3: are the other guys trying to muddy the water. You

368
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 3: know what I mean.

369
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 5: I know what's what.

370
00:21:55,160 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 3: I'm an informed voter, and this is fertile ground for

371
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:05,440
Speaker 3: conspiracies of foreign election interference. I think it's important for

372
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 3: us to note that the countries who are doing this again,

373
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 3: they don't see themselves as the bad guys. They don't

374
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 3: have the same set of desires or interest as domestic citizens.

375
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 3: They're trying to put their finger on the scale for

376
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 3: whichever candidate might best suit their geopolitical goals. And that's

377
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,199
Speaker 3: a very different thing from let's say a voter who

378
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 3: is worried about inflation or is worried about education, things

379
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,479
Speaker 3: like that. That doesn't matter to these guys. What matters

380
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 3: to them is a much larger horizon of concerns. And

381
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 3: so if they have, you know, if they have a

382
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 3: candidate that they're kind of working against, and that candidate

383
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 3: cracks a deal with them and switches sides, then they'll

384
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 3: switch sides too, because they just want it to get done,

385
00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 3: you know what I mean.

386
00:22:59,560 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 4: They just.

387
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 3: They just want to control the microchips and so on.

388
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 4: Careful, careful, you're saying politicians don't always believe everything they

389
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 4: talk about.

390
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 3: Whoa whoa FBI here he is. It's just what you're right, though, nol.

391
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 3: I mean, we also know that countries will conspire behind

392
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 3: the scenes with each other. A great example of this

393
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 3: would be the nineteen seventeen Zimmerman Telegram, where in the

394
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 3: Foreign Minister of Germany at the time, he had his ambassador.

395
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 3: He was trying to be slick. He had his ambassador

396
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,120
Speaker 3: to Mexico send a pitch letter and they said, hey,

397
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 3: if you ally with us, with Germany against the United States,

398
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 3: then you know, we'll just we'll give you a bunch

399
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 3: of land that used to be the United States. We're

400
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 3: on your side, so help influence opinions. Right, And this

401
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 3: is I don't know, I think this is the part

402
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 3: where we also have to note, Paul, if we could

403
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 3: get a wamp wamp perfect, the US is not a

404
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 3: paragon of good behavior in this respect. The US in

405
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 3: fact skips past a lot of the tame election interference

406
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 3: methods and they just straight up have killed people and

407
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 3: overthrown governments.

408
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, search our feeds for School of the Americas if

409
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 2: you will, especially on YouTube and watch the old video

410
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 2: there really explains that stuff.

411
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 5: Yeah.

412
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 3: Democratically elected leaders too. Yeah, they just went for it.

413
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 3: There aren't really good guys in geopolitics. And yeah, the

414
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 3: Founding fathers had no idea how much of a role

415
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 3: twenty first century technology will play in elections, but they

416
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 3: were pretty on point to be worried about all the

417
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,479
Speaker 3: things that could go wrong. I mean, this is a question, right,

418
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 3: do we think that technology has empowered citizens of countries

419
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 3: to vote? Or has it made it easier for bad

420
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 3: faith actors to interfere? Or is it both?

421
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 5: I don't know.

422
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I know there's always kind of a

423
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 4: reluctance to go full online, like full technology for elections.

424
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 4: You know, at least over here, there's always some analog

425
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 4: kind of hand counted aspects, you know. To your point,

426
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 4: Matt about like how in this country it probably would

427
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 4: be difficult to have mandatory voting because I don't think

428
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 4: they're ever.

429
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 5: Going to just make it online where you don't have

430
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 5: to leave the house.

431
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 4: There always needs to be some aspect of the process

432
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 4: that is monitored by humans or at the very least

433
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 4: double checked by humans, or some paper ballot aspect.

434
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: Let's go back to that sixty six percent of American

435
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 2: citizens voted in the previous presidential election. If you know

436
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 2: that over thirty percent of voters pretty much aren't going

437
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 2: to vote, and now you're implementing technology pretty heavily and

438
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 2: gaviring as much information about that thirty percent of voters

439
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 2: that isn't going to vote couldn't you somehow, behind the scenes,

440
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 2: through some backdoor, make it look as though at least

441
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: a percentage of that thirty percent did vote, maybe in

442
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 2: favor of your candidate.

443
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 4: How so, like how I had one implement that are

444
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 4: you talking about through like hacks or through you know,

445
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 4: bad acting Like.

446
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: What I'm saying, with technology, you are gathering more and

447
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: more information on the voter.

448
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 3: So that's I'm glad you brought that up, because that's

449
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 3: going back to that question I had just asked, Right,

450
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 3: is it empowering people with information or is it empowering

451
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 3: bad faith actors with information? Would be another way to

452
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 3: phrase this. We know that cyber attacks, info war, well

453
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 3: timed leaks, shout out to WikiLeaks. All this stuff is

454
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 3: super affordable for a state actor, and when you deploy

455
00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 3: it successfully, it yields a huge bang for your buck. Right,

456
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 3: and people are also I would argue. I would argue

457
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 3: to that point, people are more vulnerable now to disinformation

458
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 3: than they are empowered.

459
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 5: Like if you read if you read.

460
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 3: Arguments from US citizens going back decades, just decades, then

461
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 3: you'll see that the average person seemed to at least

462
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 3: appear to give in depth answers about public policy stuff

463
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 3: that no offense. I certainly couldn't answer if someone had

464
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 3: a man on the street interview with me and they

465
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 3: were like, what do you find to be the most

466
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 3: troubling and or promising things about the new idea of

467
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 3: stepping away from the gold standard?

468
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 4: I mean, of course knowledge is power in theory, but

469
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 4: when you know you have access to so much, yeah,

470
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 4: admittedly good information, there almost is this like pushback of

471
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 4: flooding that good information with bad information and misleading information.

472
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 4: So it's almost like a zero sum game in a way,

473
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 4: where like, yes, we do have access to all this

474
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 4: great stuff, but it's also so muddied by all these

475
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 4: bad actors flooding it so that it's almost like finding

476
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 4: a needle in a haystack sometimes to get the good

477
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 4: information guys.

478
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 2: I would argue that with the technology, and as that

479
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 2: is increased, the usage of different forms of technology, as

480
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: that's increased, we've seen an increase in the set of

481
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 2: talking points that is simply aimed at the other candidate,

482
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: rather than on those actual policies that we're talking about

483
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: the things that could be changed or that a populace

484
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 2: may want to have changed By having a new person

485
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 2: in office, it's altered now to just oh, well, you

486
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: can't vote for that person because of X. Right, And

487
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 2: at least those are the conversations that I've been engaged

488
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: in where I'm just meeting somebody new and the subject

489
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: comes up and it's all about, well, don't vote for

490
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: that person because of whatever thing.

491
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, because they're a crooked comptroller. The idea the idea too,

492
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 3: and I love that we're pointing this out. The idea

493
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 3: is weaponization of headlines, right, and the discourse becomes a

494
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 3: lot more bread and circuses, a lot more theatrical. Let

495
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 3: me you know, I have taught you this phrase, and

496
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: this phrase is now going to be used as a

497
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 3: thought terminating cliche. So when I say this phrase, you

498
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 3: will respond, as programmed right, to either go yay or

499
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 3: to go boo.

500
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: No more new taxes, read my lips.

501
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 3: And what he meant. Of course, as we said a

502
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 3: previous episode was no comma more taxes, So because you

503
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 3: sure put them in. But I think we're on the

504
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 3: same page. There's no reason to assume that these technological

505
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 3: trends will do anything but continue you as time goes on,

506
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 3: and by this point, it's more or less common knowledge.

507
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 3: But before we go to our next break, there is

508
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 3: another aspect of election interference that does not get as

509
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 3: much attention in the West, and it really should. What

510
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 3: if you could pretend to monitor elections in other countries

511
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 3: throughout the world as a cover for downright evil things.

512
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: That's what a zombie monitor does.

513
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll take a quick break here away from our

514
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 4: sponsor and then jump right into that.

515
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 3: All right, let's go to the Africa Center for Strategic Studies.

516
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 3: And of course you're gonna hear a lot of fancy,

517
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 3: innocuous names here, so please check into all the controlling

518
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 3: powers of the institutions we mentioned. There was an excellent

519
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 3: article by a guy named Joseph Siegel that references a

520
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 3: book by a guy named Samuel run Manny and Romani

521
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 3: writes about Russia in Africa Resurgent great power or bellicos pretender.

522
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 3: And I want to point out I love the word bellicos.

523
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 3: You don't see it used often outside of you know,

524
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 3: United Nations diplomacy stuff, But if you're ever in an

525
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 3: argument with one of your friends, accuse them of being bellicos.

526
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: It just means like it's like belligerent, inflammatory in the

527
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 2: pot right, ready to fight.

528
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, belligerent agro. You could also say provocative.

529
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 3: It's basically warlike and it's just a fancy word that

530
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: that people in the international set prefer to use over hater. Yeah.

531
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 2: Man, these bars in Buckhead are feeling really bellicos around

532
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: two am.

533
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 3: There it is there, it is. So what what's brilliant

534
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 3: about this argument is that they depict how desperation puts

535
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 3: Russia as a foreign power to pursue unorthodox methods of

536
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 3: influencing the African continent. And I don't know about you guys,

537
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 3: but I learned a lot about this. I think we

538
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 3: had together been doing more and more research when we

539
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 3: were learning about the Wagner group and their adventurism on

540
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 3: that continent.

541
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: But uh oh yeah, and.

542
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 4: I love that term, right, It's like, yeah, it's like

543
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 4: conquest basically, is what it means.

544
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: Well, we were also learning a lot about the influence

545
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 2: that China was exerting in many countries on the African continent,

546
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 2: and you know, for different purposes, but utilizing some of

547
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: the same methods to make sure they've got people in

548
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 2: the right positions to say, Okay.

549
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 3: Mm hm exactly. We'd love for you to have a

550
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 3: base of operations here. And you know what, that's a

551
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 3: great point. We don't need to take this to the

552
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 3: UN I mean yeah, like I don't. I don't need

553
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 3: to call my senator just because someone's crashing my house.

554
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 3: Let's came out, bro.

555
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 2: But in China is one of the countries that, at

556
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: least for my money, I would say, is a big

557
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 2: financial player in many countries on the African continent. What

558
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 2: is Russia's role there? How is it different?

559
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 3: It's interesting because Russia as a state power is not

560
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 3: a big financial player in the region in comparison to

561
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 3: you know, your US or your colonial European powers or

562
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 3: China of course, which is actually China is kind of

563
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 3: winning if you're talking about foreign influence. And check out

564
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 3: our earlier episode on that a few years ago, which

565
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 3: unfortunately remains relevant. Russia was in a pickle. They have

566
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 3: a ton of trade prospects. It was interesting to learn

567
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 3: that this country is the source of less than one

568
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 3: percent of what we call foreign direct investment in Africa overall.

569
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 3: So while Russia has a very big shadow militarily and

570
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 3: a very big political shadow, a very big energy production shadow.

571
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 3: They don't have a big financial shadow in Africa, at

572
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 3: least not officially. So what they decided to do they

573
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 3: were thinking, all right, we got to pitch these these leaders,

574
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 3: these king makers in this collection of countries. We got

575
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 3: to pitch them on being friends with us and letting

576
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 3: us explore their resources quote unquote, letting us also base

577
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 3: our military there for more force projection. We're going to

578
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 3: do a different We're going to take a different path.

579
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 3: We're going to be the disruptors. We're going to stick

580
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 3: up for any African dictator, and we're going to legitimize

581
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 3: whatever the hell they're doing.

582
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 2: Dude, well, what does that mean. That means that if

583
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: you ever see, let's say, a coup that occurs on

584
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,919
Speaker 2: the African content in any country, pick your country, because

585
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: there have been so many over the past decade, Russia

586
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 2: puts its hand up and says, hey, we got your back,

587
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 2: no problem. What do you need, what do you need?

588
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: You guys need some help, We're there for you, exactly.

589
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 2: It does make you wonder a little bit, at least

590
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 2: it makes me wonder when you hear a former president,

591
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 2: you know, in an official capacity, just making off andder

592
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 2: remarks about, oh well, I actually think you know that

593
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 2: one leader of this dictatorship is a strong leader or

594
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 2: something like that, and that leader is being propped up

595
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 2: by Russia in this way. And then there are also

596
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: accusations that that same president is being in some way

597
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: meddled with right by Russia. It's just it makes you think.

598
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean it's true necessarily, it just feels.

599
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 3: Off to me, right, And a big part of this,

600
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 3: a big part of these conspiracies does depend on feeling right.

601
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 3: What appears to be the case, How does this seem?

602
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 3: And this is where Russia went into deep narrative war. Essentially,

603
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 3: their argument was any time someone might criticize Russia or

604
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 3: co signing of corrupt government functions, Russia would pop back

605
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 3: in and they would clap back really and they would say, hey,

606
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 3: you know what, though the West shouldn't run everything, we're

607
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 3: here to help. We support African solutions to African problems.

608
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 3: And guess what, you guys, we're not old school colonial

609
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 3: powers on this continent. Remember Belgium, remember France, And then

610
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 3: you know you can't blame it. Like obviously, that message

611
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 3: resonates deeply with many people in these countries who survived colonialism, right,

612
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 3: that wasn't too long ago, and it's scary, scary stuff.

613
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 3: So that, I think is a point well made. And

614
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 3: if we're exercising empathy, I could totally understand being someone

615
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 3: in a postcolonial African country and saying, hey, yeah, I

616
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 3: know Russia doesn't get everything right, but at least they're

617
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 3: not letting themselves be trod upon by the expansionist West,

618
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 3: or yeah.

619
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 2: Or it doesn't appear as though they're trying to control

620
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 2: us outright.

621
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 3: Right, right, unless you check out things like the Russia

622
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 3: Sphere network, or to be fair, things like Voice of America.

623
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 2: Well it's that, no, just look it up.

624
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 3: Let's leave those coughs in that silence in yeah, look

625
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 3: it up. So now we get to zombie election monitoring.

626
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 3: The emergent tool that's become quite popular is the idea

627
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 3: of sending in what are sometimes euphemistically called low quality

628
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 3: election monitors, or more controversially, zombie monitors. And we have

629
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 3: a great quote about this from a paper that's free

630
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 3: to read online.

631
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 4: That's right in their article Zombies Ahead, explaining the rise

632
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 4: of low quality election monitoring. The authors Sarah soun Bush,

633
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 4: Christina Catcierro and Laura Praether make the argument that this

634
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 4: is in their words, the number of organizations engaged in

635
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 4: high quality election monitoring has plateaued, but the number of

636
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 4: low quality monitors, commonly known as zombie monitors, has continued

637
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 4: to grow.

638
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 2: And again, these are monitors that just kind they appear

639
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 2: to have the same function as what would be a

640
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 2: legitimate election monitoring group, but really they've got ulterior motives.

641
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 3: M Yeah, And in full disclosure, we are friends with

642
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 3: people who work or have worked in Western election monitoring,

643
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 3: folks from the Carter Center, which is based here in

644
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 3: the United States, and I was personally surprised when I

645
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 3: was talking with some of those folks about it, and

646
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 3: I said, well, do you think this is another one

647
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 3: of our crazy conspiracy things, And they said, no, it

648
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 3: is absolutely true. Those people are getting sent on the ground.

649
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 3: And as we'll find, there is a cold and brutal

650
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 3: logic to doing this. These authoritarian regimes will they're sometimes

651
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 3: called the Big Five, These countries will send a group

652
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 3: like we're describing into another country to look at their

653
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 3: voting process and claim it is legitimate no matter what happens.

654
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 3: So someone gets you know, one hundred and ten percent

655
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 3: of the votes, and then these people are literally paid

656
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 3: to go. This is amazing, guys, democracy, This is what

657
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 3: the people want. You can see examples of this in

658
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 3: a lot of places that are sometimes described as vassal

659
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 3: states like Southeast Asia and Central Asia are struggling with this.

660
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, they really are, and there is I think we

661
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 2: just have to point out here there is still space

662
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 2: here for election monitoring groups to have influence. Even the

663
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 2: ones that are super above board or appear that way,

664
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: there is space for them to have some kind of

665
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 2: minor meddling where it is that same deal makes something

666
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: look legitimate. I think of it like a fixer, right,

667
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: like the wolf, like sending in the wolf to make

668
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 2: sure this election goes the way we want it or

669
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 2: need it to go.

670
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 3: Right.

671
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 2: But I'm not saying that's what they do every time.

672
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 2: I'm saying there's space for that, because anytime you have

673
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 2: a third party entering in, like a new challenger, approaching

674
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 2: kind of deal, you have to be at least moderately

675
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 2: skeptical of their intentions.

676
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent, and there's nothing wrong with that.

677
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 3: Dare I say trust but verify?

678
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 5: Hmm?

679
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 3: About that old quote because it is I think it

680
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 3: is applicable here. It's apropos. We see that countries like

681
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 3: Cambodia and Myanmar, or obviously Venezuela, and a lot of

682
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 3: the stands Uzbekistan as are by John Tajikistan, they're vulnerable

683
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 3: to this kind of stuff. And I love that you're

684
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 3: pointing out that we should also question the motives of

685
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,839
Speaker 3: the generally accepted election monitors. Sometimes they have a horse

686
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 3: in the race too. It's weird because, and said with

687
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 3: great affection, the nerds have been trying to warn the

688
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 3: public about this for quite some time. We mentioned the

689
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 3: National Endowment for Democracy a little bit earlier, they published

690
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 3: basically a banger mixtape, like an academic version of a

691
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 3: mixtape about this problem.

692
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they did, Yeah they did. And I'm just

693
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:41,720
Speaker 2: going to point here before we get to that mixtape.

694
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 2: It's an argument that we've made on this show many

695
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 2: a time. In any of these situations, when one of

696
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 2: these election monitoring groups is being deployed, you have to

697
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 2: keep in mind, no matter who's deploying it, that person

698
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 2: believes that they are fighting in some way for the

699
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 2: greater good. Yes, it might be the greater good is

700
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: if our team is running things or if our team

701
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 2: make sure the other team doesn't get into power, and

702
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 2: it's gonna be that way every time, in every situation.

703
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 5: Can we just say too that?

704
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 4: Then the mixtape in question also has a banger of

705
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 4: a mixtape esque name. It's called Authoritarianism Goes Global subtitle

706
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 4: the Challenge to Democracy. But no doubt I could see

707
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 4: that as actually being the name of a mixtape. But

708
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 4: the authors argue that the Big Five we mentioned, China, Russia,

709
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 4: around Saudi Arabia and Venezuela are all united by this

710
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 4: desire to contain the global advance of democracy, which.

711
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 3: Just side note, folks, this has nothing to do with

712
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 3: domestic US politics. This has nothing to do with the

713
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 3: name of political parties like Republicans or Democrats. This is

714
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 3: the concept of a remember of the public being able

715
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 3: to vote.

716
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 2: Dude, it's Cold war stuff.

717
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 3: It is very much the Cold War. Also never ended.

718
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 5: No, that's why it's cold.

719
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 3: That's why it's the cold.

720
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 5: Steal in the fridge might be heated up though.

721
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 3: I mean this. I love that we're mentioning this because

722
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 3: there are other things that are unfamiliar to the public.

723
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 3: Something I propose we call our term of the evening Gongs.

724
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 4: That could be the name of the rap group that

725
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 4: releases the mixtape there it is, yeah, kind of like migos.

726
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 4: I don't know, gong Goos just sounds like a really

727
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 4: sick like like like a group. You know, everyone's got

728
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 4: their own style and this those we don't have enough

729
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 4: of those, and we need more of those.

730
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 3: We need more of those.

731
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: It's like multiple gone girls, but they're a group.

732
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they go and uh.

733
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 3: Or it could be a set of bongos you order

734
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 3: from Timu.

735
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 2: Never never gets a stolen set of bongos Anti bongos.

736
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 3: So these are this lovely little portman comes to us

737
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 3: from the idea of NGOs non governmental organizations things like

738
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 3: the Red Cross or things like you know, Greenpeace. It's

739
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 3: supposed to be an institution centered on some aspect of

740
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 3: humanitarian activity. Right, we want to give people medical treatment.

741
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 4: On their surface, pretty non controversial because they're not they're

742
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 4: not governmental.

743
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 2: They are not a part of the government. But what

744
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,720
Speaker 2: happens when a government makes an NGO.

745
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 3: Right, So in geo, let's remember the end term there

746
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 3: and then where's the GEO come from? Gongo is a

747
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 3: term meaning government organized non governmental organizations.

748
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 2: Surrealism there, Dudengo has already had such problems, and now

749
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:52,879
Speaker 2: now we're just reverse engineering them again.

750
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 3: Oh no, yeah, and you'll love to see it, right.

751
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 3: Zombie election monitors are part of this toolbox. Sometimes they

752
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 3: are from GONGOs themselves, and it can be quit pretty

753
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 3: difficult for the average person to suss out the ultimate

754
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 3: providence of these GONGOs, who actually controls something like, you know,

755
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 3: the Organization for Health and Safety and Elections. We may

756
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 3: we freestyled that name, but as like, what's an example

757
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 3: of one, just so people can see how innocuous these outen.

758
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 2: Oh, here's a real one, the i f EES or

759
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: International Foundation for Electoral Systems.

760
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 3: Oh type all right, above board, I'm sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

761
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 3: yeah yeah. So we also know that and in the

762
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 3: same step that you would, you would create GONGOs and

763
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 3: deploy them, and deployment is the right word. At the

764
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 3: same time, you might target actual in geos as foreign agents,

765
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 3: which is you know, going back to the great debate

766
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 3: of things like the Peace Corps and the CIA, You

767
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 3: know what I mean.

768
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 2: Dude, two, yes, I'm going to read this to you guys.

769
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 2: This is directly from the International Foundation for Electoral Systems

770
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 2: website and it's just to back up that point you

771
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 2: made Ben. Here it says about IFES advances democracy for

772
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 2: a better future. We collaborate with civil society, public institutions,

773
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 2: and the private sector to build resilient democracies that deliver

774
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 2: for everyone. This is the part as a global leader

775
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 2: in the promotion and protection of democracy. Our technical assistance

776
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: and applied research develop trusted electoral bodies capable of conducting

777
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 2: credible elections, effective and accountable governing stakeholders. And it just

778
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 2: goes on and on, and which they could be great,

779
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 2: and you're probably man. You might work for them, and

780
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 2: you might be an amazing human being and do a

781
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 2: good work. It just feels it feels.

782
00:46:58,800 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 5: Like that thing.

783
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, And we should also remember to that brilliant point.

784
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 3: A lot of times folks might not know the ultimate

785
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 3: you know, the ultimate boardroom as it were, for an

786
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 3: organization that employs them or has them. Do you know

787
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:20,399
Speaker 3: their volunteer gap year or whatever. These these groups when

788
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 3: they arrive, the weird thing is often they seem to

789
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 3: have little or no track record of election monitoring, at

790
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 3: least in the beginning, sort of like in the Terminator franchise,

791
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,760
Speaker 3: the original androids were very easy to differentiate from humans,

792
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 3: and they just got better and better and better. They're

793
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 3: legitimizing corrupt elections. That's the conspiracy. And the tricky part

794
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 3: is we're talking about this a little bit off air.

795
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 3: I always say, if podcasting doesn't work out for us,

796
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 3: maybe this could be our new gig. They will straight

797
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 3: up higher Western like West folks as operatives. And this

798
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 3: is where we go to a great quote from The

799
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 3: Diplomat written by Casey Michelle.

800
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 4: Right Westerners brought credence supposedly hailing from democratic nations themselves.

801
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 4: It didn't matter whether or not they actually had any

802
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 4: experience observing elections. All that mattered was their citizenship. If

803
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 4: they had prior political background, all the better. Elections served

804
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 4: as one more avenue for these governments to utilize their

805
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 4: methods of caviar diplomacy, to whine and dine current and

806
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 4: former Western politicians into overlooking the electoral shortcomings and cite

807
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 4: the progress and transition apparent Caviard diplomacy. Guys, this seems

808
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 4: to fit in with that emolument's clause A little bit

809
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 4: done then I mean, isn't it interesting though, how it

810
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 4: doesn't apply to some people that definitely should, Like we know,

811
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 4: Supreme Court justices who arguably or even more powerful than

812
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 4: the president. I mean, the president puts them there, but

813
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 4: then they really guide the you know, the course of

814
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 4: policy and laws at least in this country. And yet

815
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 4: they are able to take all kinds of crazy gifts

816
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,720
Speaker 4: that aren't referred to as bribes.

817
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 3: Right, and the guy at publics can't even take a tip,

818
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 3: you know, no tips.

819
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's definitely. It's definitely a concept that has this

820
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 2: like pleasant saltiness, but ultimately it tastes fishy to me.

821
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 5: Like caviar, Like caviar. You ever had cavard, Guys, it's

822
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 5: pretty good. Yeah, it's okay, it's not for everybody.

823
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 4: It is overrated, but I had some black caviar once

824
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 4: and then actually it's it's nice on a on a

825
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:35,919
Speaker 4: cracker with a little crimp.

826
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 2: Fre dude, did you have it on a cutting board?

827
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 2: I'm just joking.

828
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 4: Sorry, Yeah, Okay, i'm cutting board, rich, guys, I'm cutting

829
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 4: How many do you have?

830
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 5: Well, I've got I've got.

831
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 4: Two really nice wooden ones, one quite bespoke that I

832
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 4: bought at an art market and then I have, you know,

833
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 4: a bunch of plastic ones that I use for my

834
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 4: day to day cutting, my daily cutter.

835
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 2: Sorry, no, this is too late, Matt.

836
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 5: We're down. We're already down the yellbrig road here.

837
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 3: Over the guys. Also, just so you know, a lot

838
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 3: of the h a lot of the idea of caviar is,

839
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 3: oh gosh, we should do an episode on caviar. Quite honestly,

840
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:21,879
Speaker 3: the the idea of caviar diplomacy is it's a real thing,

841
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 3: and it's something that to our earlier point kind of

842
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 3: skirt skirts around the idea of these these clauses preventing

843
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 3: the gift giving right or the potential for bribery, especially

844
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 3: when we're talking about a former Western politician, because then

845
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 3: you get back into the revolving door private and public industry.

846
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 3: And also, yeah, people in the West objected to this,

847
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 3: and they were saying, rightly, I don't know, man, I

848
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 3: think this election's rigged. There's not any real election where

849
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 3: one person gets ninety eight percent of the vote or whatever.

850
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 3: But the country trees doing this, both in the country

851
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 3: sending the zombie monitors and the countries that are engaging

852
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 3: in that farce. They don't give a tinker's damn about

853
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 3: what the West thinks. This is not this is a performance.

854
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 3: It is not a performance meant for you in the

855
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 3: global West. It is meant instead to further oppress the

856
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 3: people living under these authoritarian regimes. This way you can say, hey,

857
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 3: citizens of this country, that I'm the strong man over

858
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 3: for you know, insert this number of years. Look, we're legit,

859
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 3: We're what the people want. Everybody voted this way, you know,

860
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 3: because we listen to you. And just for one case here,

861
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 3: let's look at the twenty fifteen election in Kazakhstan. The

862
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 3: zombie monitors there, the president at the time, claimed he

863
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 3: did get literally ninety eight percent of the vote, and

864
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 3: he did this while he threw all of his opponents

865
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 3: in jail and crushed any independent media except for a

866
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 3: couple Western journalists who happened to monitor the election, and

867
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 3: they said it was aces.

868
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 5: Cool. Case closed.

869
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 3: Go Nur Sultan Nazerbayev. That's the guy who won the election.

870
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 3: I'm just mentioning his name because I think he has

871
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 3: a really fun name.

872
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 2: And to ninety eight percent of the voters there voted

873
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:32,720
Speaker 2: for him, so he must be popular.

874
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 3: I just like. Okay, there was a journalist from Latvia

875
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 3: a journalist from the United Kingdom. They both hailed the

876
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 3: election as legitimate. And here's the kicker. Actual members of

877
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 3: US Congress also participated in this grift, Steve Stockman and

878
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 3: Robert Wexler particularly in this election, and Wexler himself had

879
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 3: some pretty rich quotes. He said, the election is impressive

880
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 3: and that the love and affection that people have for

881
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 3: this president is most remarkable. And then he could have

882
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 3: stopped there, but he didn't.

883
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. He also said, we export ninety eight percent of

884
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,479
Speaker 2: the world's potassium. Oh wait, no, that's something else.

885
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 3: He said, I don't know of anywhere else in the

886
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 3: world today where there is such diversity, and yet there

887
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 3: seems to be such harmony, no offense Kazakhstan. But that

888
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 3: is not an entirely accurate statement. It sounds nice, though,

889
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 3: it sounds great. You know, sell me a bridge while

890
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 3: you're at it.

891
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 5: Okay, I don't understand that reference, man, I saw it

892
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 5: in the outline. I just made you off by what

893
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 5: do you mean? I don't. I think I just want

894
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 5: to know because it sounds clever, but.

895
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 3: I feel it's referencing the old con artist move of

896
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 3: finding someone like There are multiple real versions of this,

897
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 3: but the American folk tale version would be someone arrives

898
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 3: in a big city for the first time and they

899
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 3: want to make their fortune and they run into a

900
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 3: guy who says something like, oh, you like this Brooklyn Bridge,

901
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 3: I happen to own it. I'll sell it to you

902
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 3: right now, gotcha.

903
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 5: It's sort of a magic Beans kind of argument.

904
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 4: Like yeah, yeah, so I think we believe all that

905
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 4: in because maybe other people have questions about this too

906
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:27,280
Speaker 4: and quickly.

907
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 2: So we're talking about using these very specific ways of

908
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,959
Speaker 2: election monitoring to legitimize elections that are not above board

909
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 2: and ways for essentially authoritarian powers to either stay in

910
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 2: power or to grasp power. Right, But it's usually a

911
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 2: staying in power thing. When you're using these election monitors,

912
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 2: a lot of it goes back to intimidation, either through

913
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 2: like warnings if my party loses, there's going to be

914
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 2: a blood bath, which is something that Venezuelan president that

915
00:54:56,239 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 2: was just re elected Maduro said basically warned everybody, you

916
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 2: better reelect me or there's gonna be trouble. You can

917
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 2: quell dissent by putting people in jail as the way

918
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 2: we saw Russia do it right with navalny and who

919
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 2: ended up passing away while while incarcerated. In Syria, you

920
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 2: can do it by quelling dissent through basically state sponsored

921
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 2: violence against people who would vote against you or who

922
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 2: would try and get you out of power.

923
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 5: But yeah, I mean, we're seeing those kinds of threats

924
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 5: over here.

925
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 4: I mean just in terms of if I don't win

926
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 4: the election, then it was rigged and there's gonna be

927
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 4: a blood bath. Just saying that's that's something that was

928
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 4: literally said in political discourse.

929
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 3: That's true. Paul Dekin did say that early he's a

930
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 3: monster in an email he sent to the entire company.

931
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 5: Mm hmmm. Still wait to see how that one pans out.

932
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 4: But I'm just saying it's like, you know, what we

933
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 4: have seen in the past has something that only happens

934
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 4: in other countries. We're starting to see over here as well.

935
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 4: So I mean, I'm just saying we're not special in

936
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:01,919
Speaker 4: some way.

937
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 3: No, for sure.

938
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 2: You can read in the New York Times. It's an

939
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 2: article titled how authoritarian government's rig elections to stay in

940
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 2: power and if you go through it you will find

941
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 2: that there are all these little ways to manipulate. It

942
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be just a threat, right. You can

943
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 2: do things like Paraguay, who actually goes and finds indigenous

944
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 2: peoples that generally wouldn't just go out and vote on

945
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:29,240
Speaker 2: their own, and they will attempt to make large numbers

946
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 2: of them vote for a particular person.

947
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 3: It's essentially cooping exactly when you used to conscript people

948
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 3: in places like Chicago to vote.

949
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:40,760
Speaker 2: Well, exactly, think about some of the stuff that happens

950
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 2: in our country.

951
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 3: That's why I yeah, I think is one of the

952
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,759
Speaker 3: big things for us to take away from this exploration

953
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 3: of a very real series of conspiracies. We're not talking

954
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 3: about a glasshouse, a glasshouse environment. We're talking about a

955
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 3: glass planet. These things are rigged in ways that the

956
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:03,280
Speaker 3: public is not meant to understand.

957
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 4: Ben I propose a new not portmanteau, but as squishing

958
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,800
Speaker 4: together of two aphorisms. Let's call it a glass house

959
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 4: half full or glass house half empty scenario.

960
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 5: Love it, yes, don't know what it means, Write in

961
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 5: and let us know what you think.

962
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 3: We also know that it's crucial to understand the importance

963
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 3: of this bait and switch. It may sound academic, yes,

964
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 3: it may sound like talking about something over the horizon

965
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 3: that does not touch you, but it very much does

966
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 3: no matter where you find yourself in this wide world.

967
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 3: Because of this. This is one key thing. When zombie

968
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 3: election monitors come out and say an election was legitimate,

969
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 3: and then legitimate election monitors come out and say there

970
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 3: was something screwy afoot right, something's rotten in the state

971
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 3: of Denmark, then the public is far less likely to protest.

972
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 3: The public is going to tend to assume that there

973
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 3: is respectability. That patina of legitimacy is dangerous in a

974
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 3: very real way. This is gaslighting a nation entire right.

975
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 3: And that's something that should keep.

976
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 5: You up at night.

977
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 3: And it does, and it does, and it does. We're

978
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 3: so fun at parties. We know this is still going

979
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 3: to continue in the future. It's just such a cost

980
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 3: effective tool of public control. It's such a successful conspiracy.

981
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 3: And maybe we end on this. When you see those

982
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 3: declarations about elections, this sound a little bit too good

983
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 3: to be true. Oh, this guy's been in power for

984
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 3: ten plus years and ninety plus percent of the people

985
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 3: keep voting for him. Who told us that? Who was

986
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 3: saying that, and why is there some stuff they don't

987
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 3: want you to know? The answer candidly is usually going

988
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 3: to be yes, unless, of course, you are an authoritarian

989
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 3: dictator who would like to contact us with your firsthand experience.

990
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 5: Have your people call our people. You can do that.

991
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 4: You can find this first of all, on the Internet

992
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 4: and all the usual social media places of note at

993
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 4: the handlic conspiracy stuff where we exist on Facebook with

994
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 4: our Facebook group here is where it gets crazy, on YouTube,

995
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 4: where we have video content galore for you to enjoy,

996
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 4: and on x FKA, Twitter, on Instagram and TikTok. However,

997
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 4: we are conspiracy stuff show.

998
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 2: We have a phone number. Call it and tell us

999
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 2: what you think. One eight three three std WYTK. When

1000
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 2: you call in, give yourself a cool nickname and let

1001
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 2: us know if we can use your name and message

1002
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 2: on the air. If you've got more to say and

1003
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 2: can fit in that message one instead, send us a

1004
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 2: good old fashioned email.

1005
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence

1006
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 3: we receive, thanks to Big Shucks, in particular thanks to Darcy,

1007
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 3: thanks to everybody takes the time to write in. Be aware,

1008
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 3: yet unafraid. Sometimes the void writes back play a game

1009
00:59:57,520 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 3: with us conspiracy at iHeartRadio.

1010
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

1011
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1012
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.