1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine, Hey fam Today on the bright Side. 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 2: If you've ever had a disagreement with your spouse about 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 2: who does more around the house, this is the episode 4 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 2: for you. We're joined by New York Times best selling 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 2: author Eve Rodsky, and she's out with brand new research 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 2: revealing the facts about cognitive labor in the household and 7 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 2: how you can have more effective conversations to find the 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 2: equilibrium you need. It's Wednesday, September eighteenth. I'm Simone Boyce. 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 3: I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright Side from 10 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 3: Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we come together to 11 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 3: share women's stories, laugh, learn and brighten your day. 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 2: Today's Wellness Wednesday is presented by Coliguard. 13 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 4: Listen. 14 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: I know I can speak for all of us when 15 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 2: I say we've all been in situations where the work 16 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: of running a household has felt a bit unbalanced. I 17 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 2: don't care whether you're married, whether you're living with a boyfriend, girlfriend, 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 2: even siblings and roommates. You know, conversations about sharing household 19 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 2: duties can get so tricky to navigate. Well, today we're 20 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,639 Speaker 2: getting into all of it, and we've got the best 21 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 2: voice on this topic in the house with us today. 22 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: Eve Rodsky is an organizational management expert and the New 23 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: York Times bestselling author of fair Play, as well as 24 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 2: Find Your Unicorn Space Reclaim Your Creative Life in a 25 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 2: Too Busy World. I've loved both of her books and 26 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: they've been so helpful for me in my own life 27 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 2: as a mom and a wife. And Eve is also 28 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 2: part of the Hello Sunshine fan so you know we 29 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 2: love that. 30 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: Yes she is. 31 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 3: I don't say this often, but Eve's book changed my life, 32 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 3: and we'll get into that a little bit later. But 33 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 3: in terms of equality on the home front, here's the thing. 34 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 3: Gloria Steinem has always said that women will not be 35 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 3: equal until men do equal work at home. And to me, 36 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 3: that's what Eve's book, her first book, fair Play, is 37 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 3: all about. It's geared toward women who are taking on 38 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 3: the brunt of domestic work, feeling overlooked, overwhelmed, possibly resentful 39 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 3: at their partner. And I think, just like all of 40 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 3: the best books and movements, it starts with one person 41 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: saying I've had enough, and that's how Eves started. Because 42 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 3: women do two thirds of what it takes to run 43 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 3: a home and a family, and that was pre pandemic. 44 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 3: So I know how this shows up in my life. 45 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 3: I'm not married or partnered, and when I read her book, 46 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 3: I had a lot of anxiety about eventually being partnered because. 47 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: I saw my mom do so much. 48 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 3: She worked full time, and she did almost all of 49 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,839 Speaker 3: the household tasks, and she worked out, and she took 50 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 3: care of us, and she was a friend and a wife, 51 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 3: and I never understood how she did it all, and 52 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 3: I didn't want to do it all. 53 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 1: I don't have the same energy she has. 54 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 3: And so I picked up Eve's book for the first 55 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 3: time to try to figure that out, and it really 56 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 3: helped it ease my anxiety. 57 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: It made me feel like there was a way forward. 58 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: Well, when I think about the landscape of parenting today 59 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: and marriage today, I am really encouraged by the research 60 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: that shows that millennial fathers are more involved than previous 61 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 2: generations before them. And I really think we have Eve 62 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 2: and voices like hers to thank for where we are 63 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 2: right now. And I mean, I can see this showing 64 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: up in my own home. My husband and I try 65 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: to take a pretty egalitarian approach to parenting, childcare, labor 66 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: around the house, and you know, we do try to 67 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: divide things up evenly, and we also each still have 68 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: our chores that we do. I think that we've found 69 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 2: a system that really works well for us. 70 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: Wait, I want details, Simone. 71 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 3: What do you mean, like are you in charge of 72 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 3: dishes and trash or like how do you divide this? 73 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 4: No, I draw the line at trash. 74 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: The feminist leaves my body whenever there's a full trash 75 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: can around. So Michael does trash, but I do most 76 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: of the cooking, and then he'll do laundry. And then 77 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 2: you know, I'll do stuff like organizational tasks around the house, 78 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: or I do a lot of DIY projects, building furniture, 79 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 2: et cetera. 80 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: Who makes the doctor's appointments and like the all the 81 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 3: school emails. 82 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 4: We kind of share that. 83 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 2: We share that and then to be really transparent, we 84 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 2: don't have this like perfectly ironed out system. Our way 85 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: of doing things is a lot more intuitive. So if 86 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 2: I've got free time and I'm able to step up, 87 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: you know, the school pickup and drop off that week, 88 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: I'm going to do that, and I'm gonna let Michael, you. 89 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 4: Know, rest a little bit. 90 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 2: If let's say, you know, one of us is really 91 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: tired at night, and we don't have the energy to 92 00:04:58,320 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 2: do the bedtime routine. 93 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 4: Then the other person will step in. 94 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: Brenee Brown has a really great illustration of this, where 95 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: her and her husband will just be truly candid with 96 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: one another and be like, hey, I'm at twenty percent 97 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: right now, if you're if you're anywhere above that, I 98 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 2: need you to do bed done tonight because you know 99 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: I'm on the verge. So I think we try to 100 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 2: approach it in that way, just with a lot of grace. 101 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 2: And I think a big thing too, is like anticipating needs, 102 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 2: which I can always get better at. 103 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 3: Well, I'm actually kind of shocked to hear that your 104 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 3: household has run so egalitarian, because most of my girlfriends 105 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 3: complain about this, and it's like, no matter how helpful 106 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 3: or nice their husbands are, they feel like the mental 107 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 3: load ends up falling on them, and so they'll like, 108 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 3: you know, the husband pitches in and drives kids or 109 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 3: does dishes, et cetera. But at the end of the day, 110 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 3: like my girlfriends are the ones being like, hey, did 111 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: you make the doctor appointments? 112 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: I can cross it off my list, Hey did you 113 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: do this? 114 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 3: And there's still that like cognitive load really that exists that. 115 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: I just don't know how we release that. That's what 116 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: Eve is here for. 117 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 2: I also think, though, it's on the women that you're 118 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: speaking about to make the choice to not do everything. 119 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: Like I had to make a decision when my first 120 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 2: son was like a year and a half probably, and 121 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 2: let's say I was going out of town for the 122 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 2: longest time. I would spend a ton of extra time 123 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: prepping meals for when he was gone, just really going 124 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 2: above and beyond to make sure that Michael's job was 125 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: extremely easy and seamless while I was gone. But then 126 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 2: I started to realize, wait, I don't know that I 127 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 2: need to be doing this, Like he's fully capable of 128 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 2: handling feeding the baby, dressing the baby, making sure that 129 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 2: the baby has everything it needs. So I do think 130 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: that it is partly on us to say, you know what, 131 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 2: here's where I'm going to draw my line, here's my boundary, 132 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 2: and let's have a conversation about where I feel like 133 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 2: I need more support. 134 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 3: I'm actually really excited to talk to Eve today because 135 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 3: she has new research out. 136 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 4: We love new research. 137 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 3: Let's bring her in. Eve Radsky, Welcome to the bright Side. 138 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: Hi guys, so good to see you. 139 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 2: Eve. 140 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: We've been wanting you to come on this show since it. 141 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 4: Launched, since the beginning. 142 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 5: Ah well, I've really really enjoyed listening to you and 143 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 5: your chemistry. 144 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 4: You. 145 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 5: My secret is that I and the rest of the 146 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,679 Speaker 5: guests are probably the least important piece of this because 147 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 5: actually your banter is like my favorite part. 148 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 4: Oh, Eve, thank you so much. 149 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: That's super sweet. 150 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 4: That's really nice to hear. 151 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: Okay, well, speaking of banter, we were actually just talking 152 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: about our experience of the division of labor in our 153 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: own lives and what we've observed as both daughters and 154 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,679 Speaker 2: then for me as a wife and a mother, Your books, 155 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: your card game. 156 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: It all started with a pack of blueberries. 157 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 4: Yes, did what happened with the blueberries? 158 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 5: Thank you for letting me go back, because it does 159 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 5: feel like a before and after moment in sort of 160 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 5: the arc of my life. But my husband Seth sent 161 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 5: me a text that's just said, I'm surprised you didn't 162 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 5: get blueberries. Let's picture the scene of what the context 163 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 5: was when I got this. I'm surprised you didn't get 164 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 5: Blueberry's text. I had a newborn baby at home and 165 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 5: a toddler and a toddler transition program say that five 166 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 5: times vast, and I was racing to get that toddler 167 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 5: when I got that text. Also, I had a breast 168 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:34,719 Speaker 5: pump and a diaper bag in the passenger seat in 169 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 5: my car. I gifts for a newborn baby in the 170 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 5: backseat of my car. I had a client contract in 171 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 5: my lap because I'd started my own law firm, because 172 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 5: I had just recently been forced out of the corporate 173 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 5: workforce by requesting a place of breastfeed and being told 174 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 5: that I would have to breastfeed in a supply closet 175 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 5: and bring my own battery pack if I wanted to 176 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 5: do so. 177 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 4: So I left. 178 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 5: Now I say it was forced out so the context 179 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 5: of being abandoned by my job and then feeling so 180 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 5: isolated and alone when this world of tasks which I 181 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 5: now call I call myself sort of the she fault, 182 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 5: not just the default, for all the unpaid domestic labor 183 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 5: that we do for our families to care for them, 184 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 5: like return the gifts in the backseat for the newborn 185 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 5: baby and feed up the newborn and try to maintain 186 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 5: a career. I pulled over, and I was late to 187 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 5: pick up Zach that day. Because I just started sobbing. 188 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 5: I started sobbing on the side of the road, thinking 189 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 5: to myself, you know, how had I become basically the 190 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 5: fulfiller of his smoothie needs? That's how I felt, and 191 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 5: every other domestic tasks I said for our family. And 192 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 5: so I think what I realize Simon and Danielle was 193 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 5: that I was living a statistic that I didn't even 194 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 5: know at the time, which was that women in partnerships 195 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 5: with men shoulder two thirds or more of what it 196 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 5: takes to run a home and family. And that statistic 197 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 5: gets worse as women make more money. So we know 198 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 5: it's a gender issue and not a monetary issue. And 199 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 5: I guess if I wish my feeling for back then 200 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 5: is if I had known that, I feel like that day. 201 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: Would have gone a lot differently. 202 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 5: And so I never really wanted women to feel that 203 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 5: type of isolation and blame and shame. 204 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: That I felt that day. 205 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 5: Wow, And it turned out that the thing that was 206 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 5: happening to me that day and the side of the 207 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 5: road had a name we called the second shift invisible work. 208 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 5: There's all these different terms for you know, sociologists who've 209 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 5: called this out, and I give them a big, you know, 210 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 5: shout out for recognizing that this has been an issue 211 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 5: for women since basically in the Industrial Revolution. And so 212 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 5: for me it was an idea of how could I 213 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 5: look at the home the way I did my work, 214 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 5: which was that the home was an organization. And so 215 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 5: if you look at it that way, that the home 216 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 5: is an organization, your most important organization. I know for 217 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 5: both of you that if I came into your office 218 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 5: and you hired me, and I said, Hey, Simon, what 219 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 5: should I be doing today, I'm just going to wait 220 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 5: here to tell me what to do. Hey Danielle, it's 221 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 5: day two. Thank you for hiring me. So what should 222 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 5: I be doing today? I'm just going to wait here 223 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 5: till you tell me what to do. Right, I probably 224 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 5: wouldn't be here on day three for both of you, 225 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 5: and so I just didn't understand how we laugh at that. 226 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: Right, we have. 227 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 5: Literally zero expectations of what's going to happen in our homes. 228 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 5: And so once I wrote that on a post it 229 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 5: that the home is an organization, I'm an expert in 230 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 5: organizational management, so I figured, how great is this? All 231 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 5: you have to do is connect what we've learned for 232 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 5: fifty years, put it in a book, in a card game, 233 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,319 Speaker 5: and then the problem is solved. And I don't think 234 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 5: I realized how complicated it was going to be until 235 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 5: I've launched fair Play into the world. 236 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: How so. 237 00:11:55,480 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 5: Well, I think the biggest reason is because unpaid labor, 238 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 5: domestic labor, is actually tied up in patriarchal notions of 239 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 5: what women should be doing. And we've been trying to 240 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 5: put women back into the home. Really, men have been 241 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 5: trying to put women back into the home in every 242 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 5: country since the beginning of time. 243 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: I mean, to be honest, that's what religion is. 244 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 2: Honestly, I get it, Like I get why they're threatened 245 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 2: by us. 246 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I get it. 247 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're amazing and we're powerful and strong, and so 248 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 2: like I got it safer for us to be in 249 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: the kitchen and not out here and messing stuff up. 250 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 4: For you, that's right. 251 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 5: And so we see this rhetoric, right, lack of access 252 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 5: to birth control and other things that make it harder 253 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 5: for women to compete. So I don't think I understood 254 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 5: that fair Play would be the torch bearer of that 255 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 5: piece of the patriarchy. And I think the hardest part 256 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 5: Danielle was that we have to come to a reckoning 257 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 5: about all of us and how we've been conditioned before 258 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 5: we can even go to the beautiful tools of fair play. 259 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 5: The bottom line reckoning is that in a patriarchal society, 260 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 5: women's time is viewed as infinite like sand, and men's 261 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 5: time is viewed as finite like diamonds. And there's some 262 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 5: listeners out there that don't believe me. Just watch what 263 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 5: happens when women enter a male profession. What happens is 264 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 5: that the salaries automatically come down. What happens when health systems, 265 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 5: even in twenty twenty four, have brochures that say things 266 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 5: like breastfeeding is free even though it's eighteen hundred hours 267 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 5: of a women's time. So what happens when you've conditioned 268 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 5: women to believe that there are time's infinite, women start 269 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 5: to say things that are complicit in their own oppression. 270 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: That was the most revolutionary part of the book for me. 271 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 3: I didn't realize how much of this I had internalized, 272 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 3: and it's messed up. 273 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 5: And this is why this is relevant to people. Even 274 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 5: if you're not in caregiving relationships at the moment, or 275 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 5: you don't have children, because we all, whether it's in 276 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 5: our workplace, whether we're the eldest daughter, we've been conditioned 277 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 5: to believe our time is infinite. So here's a spoiler alert. 278 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 5: We can't find time. We're not Albert Einstein. We can't 279 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 5: fuck with the space time continuum. When we start to 280 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 5: say things like that, well, I'll just do it. It's 281 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 5: easier for me to do it. I'll find the time. 282 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 5: What happens is that we continue to be in a 283 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 5: place where we devalue our own time. That's why it's 284 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 5: a movement. Because to even get people to the tools 285 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 5: which work, and we'll talk about that the studies that 286 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 5: we've done to show that fair play works, we need 287 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 5: to look at ourselves first and say, how are we 288 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 5: going to protect our own time and really truly believe, 289 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 5: without guilt and shame that our time is diamonds. 290 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 4: This is huge. 291 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: I told Danielle this earlier that I had to make 292 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: a shift in how I handled going out of town 293 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: and in trusting my husband with the kids. When I 294 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: was earlier on in my motherhood journey, I would pull. 295 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 4: Out all the stops. 296 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: I'd be puring the baby food, it in the silicone 297 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: mold in the freezer. I'd be labeling stuff, I'd be 298 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 2: picking out outfits everything. I'd run myself ragged just so 299 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 2: that I could make his job easier. And then I realized, 300 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 2: like you're saying, I had to look at myself and say, 301 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 2: how is my behavior facilitating this like lack of equality 302 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 2: in my home? And once I stopped handholding him, he 303 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 2: got it. He's fine, He's fully capable. 304 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 5: First of all, thank you for having that realization. It 305 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 5: still makes me tear up because it's a painful realization 306 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 5: to realize that we are, you know, people, actors in 307 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 5: a system that may not benefit us. 308 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: I think it's incredibly painful. 309 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 5: And again, I think it leads us down these wrong paths, 310 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 5: right having like conversations about what's better to be a 311 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 5: working mom as at oh mom, what's better to do this? 312 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 5: Or that we just go down these paths that actually 313 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 5: don't serve us. And so I think if we can 314 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 5: always just come back to this core notion that we're 315 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 5: human and that our time as diamonds, it really does 316 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 5: change everything. But that's why I need you, Danielle and 317 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 5: Simone and platforms like this to be talking openly and 318 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 5: honestly about how hard these issues are, because otherwise women 319 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 5: internalize quote unquote their failures for not being able to 320 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 5: do it all as internal individualistic problem, when ultimately the 321 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 5: fair play movement is understanding that, yes, we can change 322 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 5: things in our home, and I can give you. 323 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: Those tools to do that, and you'll be a cultural 324 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: warrior if you do. 325 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 5: But also what we're doing is we're going to have 326 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 5: to also go out there and fight people and the 327 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 5: policies that want us to stay in the home. 328 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 4: It's time for a quick break, but don't go anywhere. 329 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 2: We'll be right back with Ev Rodsky. And we're back 330 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 2: with New York Times bestselling author Eve Rodsky. We have 331 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: seen over the course of the past couple of years 332 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 2: this culture were emerging on social media that pits working 333 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 2: mothers against tradwives. And I'm really interested to hear your 334 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 2: take on the resurgence of tradwives in this whole movement. 335 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 2: And I want to do this delicately because I never 336 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 2: want to add to that animosity that exists between those 337 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 2: two groups. I want all of us to embrace our 338 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 2: choices as mothers and wives and support each other in 339 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 2: those choices. But I also am curious, like, do you 340 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 2: feel like the tradwife movement is antithetical to the work 341 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 2: that you're doing and have done over the past five years. 342 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 5: Okay, so ultimately fair plays. We've now interviewed tens of 343 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 5: thousands of people for our data. But what we found 344 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 5: in the beginning, when I was really digging deep into 345 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 5: making this more than just an observation about blueberries and 346 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 5: into what's actually happening to me, was that there were 347 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 5: a couple of different personality types. There was the intentional traditionalist. 348 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 5: So what an intentional traditionalist is what I would describe 349 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 5: as a trad wife or a trad relationship. Those are 350 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 5: people who are often governed by some version of God 351 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 5: who tells them you're the helpmate, He's the leader. It's 352 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 5: often relationships between men and women that you don't see 353 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 5: a lot of a talk and discourse about, like say 354 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 5: polyamorous relationships or LGBTQIA couples. We found over time that 355 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 5: those relationships are actually more stable than the relationships for 356 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 5: the accidental traditionalists. So I was an accidental traditionalist. I 357 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 5: was somebody who told Elizabeth Warren And at Harvard Law 358 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 5: School when she was a professor there before she was 359 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 5: a senator that I was going to be simone president 360 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 5: of the United States and a senator from New York 361 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 5: and a Ni City dancer all at the same time. 362 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 5: I genuinely said that that was the enthusiasm that I said, 363 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 5: that's what I was going to do with my law degree. 364 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 5: So that was me at twenty four. I was smashing 365 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 5: all these glass ceilings right one after one. And if 366 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 5: you cut to my life ten years later, what you 367 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 5: saw that, as I described, the only thing I was 368 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 5: really smashing, you know, was like peace from my toddler, 369 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 5: Zach understand, you know, trying to say what happened to 370 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 5: my career? Who did I marry? This is not the 371 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 5: life that I thought I would have. I'm a parent, 372 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 5: I'm a partner, I'm a professional and repeat, but I 373 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 5: don't even know who I am anymore. I wear my 374 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 5: kids fucking initials around my neck. I wear Zach on 375 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 5: my neck like I'm Eve, Like I don't even know 376 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 5: how to even put on my own jewelry with my 377 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 5: name on it. But we see over time that those 378 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 5: are the relationships that are at least stable, where women 379 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 5: do not get what they expected, where they say to me, 380 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 5: I had a very feminist husband who supported my career, 381 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 5: and then he's texting me that I'm the fulfiller of 382 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 5: his smoothie needs, so seth and my relationship is considered 383 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 5: the most unstable. When a woman will say I'm an 384 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 5: accidental traditionalist and I gave up my career unintentionally because 385 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 5: day care was too expensive or because my partner's career 386 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 5: we had to move, those women end up reporting in 387 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 5: our studies the most unhappiness. And then there's the people 388 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 5: who are trying that, the collaborators who really do care, 389 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 5: and who men who believe, Look, your time is diamonds, 390 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 5: and I care about that. I'm just sorry. I thought 391 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 5: asking you for a list was the way you wanted 392 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 5: me to help. But now I know I can do 393 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 5: it on my own, which is similar to how you 394 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 5: reflected your partnership. 395 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 4: A little bit earlier. 396 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: That's how I'll look at it from the data. 397 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 5: The data is that a lot of it's about expectations, 398 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 5: and a lot of what happens with the traadwise is 399 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 5: that it looked so nice on social media to be 400 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 5: able to focus on the home. 401 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: And what I. 402 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 5: See from these women is that they tell me later on, 403 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 5: especially when as they get older, that the scariest thing 404 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 5: for them was how much they lost control, because they 405 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 5: lost control of any sort of monetary power in their relationship, 406 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 5: and it can get abusive. So, you know, if you 407 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 5: take this back to sort of fair play, why it 408 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 5: felt so subversive for a lot of people was how 409 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 5: SEF describe. People will say to him, well, how did 410 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 5: you get to a fair division of labor in your home? 411 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 5: And he just says to these other men, we'll just 412 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 5: have you know, your wife write a book about you 413 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 5: and betray you in a terrible light. It's very hard 414 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 5: to talk realistically about your relationship, even if you're not 415 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 5: in a tread wife situation. So even the women who 416 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 5: I felt were really into fair play, and men too, 417 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 5: we're always like, I'm using fair play, but I didn't 418 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 5: really need it. 419 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: You know. 420 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 5: My husband's wonderful, he's a great guy, you know, but 421 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 5: we needed a little tweak. I mean, over and over 422 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 5: again for ten years, and so I would say, tell 423 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 5: me about your experience with fair play, but I don't 424 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 5: need to hear how great your husband has. 425 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: Just tell me your experience. 426 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 5: So I think the shame of talking about any realistic thing. 427 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,959 Speaker 5: We've been able to normalize it in many different ways. 428 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 5: We normalize it and work for women. We've normalized it 429 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 5: with periods, we're doing with menopause. But actually the one 430 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 5: area where I don't think we do it very well 431 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 5: is actually talking realistically about the labor in our homes 432 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 5: and so when you don't acknowledge the reality of what 433 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 5: life is like to actually care for children and TLDR. 434 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 5: It's fucking hard, so fucking hard take care of a parent, 435 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 5: a child, a dog. Caretaking is meaningful, but incredibly incredibly difficult. 436 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 5: The more we get away from that and show these 437 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 5: people frollicking in fields, the more harm we're doing to women. 438 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 3: It's time for another short break, but we'll be right 439 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 3: back with more from Eve Rodsky. 440 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: And we're back with Eve Rodsky. 441 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 3: Your work pairs qualitative and quantitative research together, which I love. 442 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 3: And in one of your recent studies you decided to 443 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 3: go beyond informal surveys and to measure quantitative. 444 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 5: Yay, Yes, I'm a nerd. This is my favorite thing 445 00:22:59,560 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 5: in the world. 446 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 2: I know. 447 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 3: I can tell well, there's this graph that stuck out 448 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 3: to me, and it lists the gender division. Of the 449 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 3: thirty tasks that you studied, what were the top tasks 450 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 3: for women versus men? 451 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 5: Okay, it's very exciting what happened. So I'll just back 452 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 5: up and say what fair play is. If people are 453 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 5: still like, what are you actually talking about? What I'm 454 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 5: talking about is that I designed a system for the 455 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,239 Speaker 5: home based on organizational management. What if we treated our 456 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 5: homes as the most important organization. If you do that, 457 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 5: you would use organizational management principles, which basically state you 458 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,479 Speaker 5: don't manage what you don't measure. So my first task 459 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 5: after the blueberry is like, what was the first thing 460 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 5: I did? I created this should I do? Spreadsheet that 461 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 5: sort of went viral before we had social media. It 462 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 5: was like early Facebook back then, because this was like 463 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 5: what twenty eleven, we just were getting iPads. 464 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: I love that you called it that. 465 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, And so the should I do spreadsheet was an 466 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 5: Excel sheet that had ninety eight tabs on the bottom 467 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 5: of it and about two thousand items total of invisible 468 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 5: work because you know, you can do a subtab, so 469 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 5: it would be like medical and healthy living, and then 470 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 5: you'd have like brushing your teeth under the subtab of it, 471 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 5: and what that did for me was actually one of 472 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 5: the most important things. It was the first time in 473 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 5: my life, actually since I had kids, that I didn't 474 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 5: feel alone because when I had started the spreadsheet and 475 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 5: started to tell women about the spreadsheet, they started to 476 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 5: give me more should I do, and so. 477 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: It became like, oh, yeah, I forgot I do that. Yes. 478 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 5: It was like the most wonderful communal exercise that I 479 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 5: ever did in my life. 480 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: It was over nine months. 481 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 5: Anywhere I went, I'd have this like small moleskin and 482 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 5: a pen in my pocket because if I'd be on 483 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 5: the costco line, I'd ask women like what unpaid labor 484 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 5: they do? 485 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: What invisible work they do? 486 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 5: And it kept on growing, like I'll give you an example, 487 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 5: like again under Medical and Healthy Living that tab I 488 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 5: was telling you. One woman said to me, you know, Eve, 489 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 5: I noticed you put the application of sunscreen to your 490 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 5: kids on there, and you wrote two minutes, But what 491 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 5: about the thirty minutes for the chase. I was like, oh, yeah, 492 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,479 Speaker 5: thirty minutes for the chase, right, okay, So I added, oh, 493 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 5: it's actually thirty two minutes to get sunscreen out here, 494 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 5: fucking child, or it would be like, oh, I see 495 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 5: that you have a tab called extracurricular nonsports for your children. 496 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 5: I see all these things like arts and crafts, but 497 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 5: where's girl Scout cookies? Ordering in sales? So from that, 498 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 5: should I do spreadsheet? Ultimately what evolved was a fair 499 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 5: play system. So this should I do spreadsheet involved into 500 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 5: one hundred cards. Okay, so why I bring this up 501 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 5: for the study? We couldn't ask people about all hundred 502 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 5: tasks and a quantitative study because they'd probably like walk 503 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 5: out the door by the time we sort of grab them. 504 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 5: So we asked them about thirty and the thirty we 505 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 5: decided to choose were the ones that women were reporting 506 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 5: that women do tasks like they can't do it their 507 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 5: own timetable. 508 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: So men will, for example, mow the. 509 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 5: Lawn or repair a garage door, but women are the 510 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 5: ones picking up a child from school if they're sick. 511 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 5: So if something interrupts your life, women do it. Some 512 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 5: men could do on their own timetable they were handling. 513 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 5: So we decided to look at the thirty tasks that 514 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 5: we call daily grinds, things that have to be done 515 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 5: at a certain time aka picking up your child from school. 516 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 5: You can't feel like it at seven pm, so you know, 517 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 5: you have to pick up your kids at a certain time. 518 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 5: You have to take them to a dentist visit every 519 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 5: six months, you have to someone's sick, Someone has to 520 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 5: interrupt their job to come caretake for somebody. So those 521 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 5: types of things were very gender specific. So we decided 522 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 5: to look at those and I think what was so 523 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 5: surprising to us was that what wasn't surprising, right, is 524 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 5: that women's shoulder every single one of these tasks, these 525 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 5: daily grind tasks, except for garbage. 526 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: But this is the sad part. It was actually shared 527 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: for garbage. 528 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 5: It wasn't even like a full male task because women 529 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 5: would still be the one nudging them to put the 530 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 5: garbage liner back in the garbage. So that was a 531 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 5: little depressing. But I think this is the core finding 532 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 5: that I want to explain to you guys, because this 533 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 5: gets to the fun part of where this is. And 534 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 5: you're the first to hear about it, by the way, 535 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 5: so I'm so excited to take it sort of off embargo. 536 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 5: We did it with USC with amazing in their Department 537 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 5: of psychology, and what we were able to find was 538 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 5: that there was a certain fair play concept that was 539 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 5: missing from most other studies, So that fair play concept 540 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 5: we call the life changing magic of mustard. So what 541 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 5: that means is early on in the should I do 542 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 5: spreadsheet life, I started to ask women because I wasn't 543 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 5: getting the right data and should I do spreadsheet land? 544 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 5: When I'd ask women who pick up the kids from school, 545 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 5: like women married to men, the chiming in would be 546 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 5: we both do, or like who gets groceries? 547 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: We both do? And I was like, what is this 548 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: Pollyannish like life for everybody? 549 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 5: When you're telling me you want to divorce your partner, 550 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 5: but now you're telling me you both do everything like 551 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 5: It was so confusing to get to the right data set. 552 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 5: And this actually happened in LGBTQIA couples too, a lot 553 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 5: of this both we're both doing everything. So to get 554 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 5: to the actual finding, I started to ask a question 555 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 5: that changed my life and actually was thank god captured 556 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 5: in the research and the question was how does mustard 557 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 5: get in your refrigerator? We found were again women married 558 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 5: to men were the ones saying that they were the 559 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 5: ones noticing that their second son, Johnny, likes yellow mustard 560 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 5: with his protein. Otherwise you won't need it now In 561 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 5: the organizational management world, we call that conception. People get 562 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 5: paid big bucks to conceive of things. Then we noticed 563 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 5: that women were reporting they were the ones monitoring that 564 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 5: mustard for when it ran low, and they were also 565 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 5: the ones getting stakeholder buying from their families for what 566 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 5: they needed on the grocery list. So we were able 567 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 5: to break out another organizational phase called planning. And then 568 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 5: the reason why people were saying both ding ding ding 569 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 5: was because the partner was going to the store to 570 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 5: pick up the yellow mustard, but he was bringing home 571 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 5: spicy djon every fucking time. And so then what happened 572 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 5: was these women were then according to me, well, Eve, 573 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 5: you want me to trust my partner with my living will, 574 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 5: this dude can't even bring home the right type of mustard. 575 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 5: So what we were realizing is that when you break 576 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 5: up the conception, planning, and execution, that's actually leading to 577 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 5: an erosion of the organizational foundations, which are accountability and trust, 578 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 5: and that's become the core concept of fair play. So 579 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 5: that's what I was trying to test. Is it true 580 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 5: that women hold and shoulder they cp of the e 581 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,719 Speaker 5: And sadly or happily, it tracked exactly what we found 582 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 5: ten years ago. Women shoulder the cognitive labor, the conception 583 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 5: and planning for every single task that we measured, except for, 584 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 5: like I said, maybe garbage in the home. And that 585 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 5: is why I believe we are incredibly exhausted because we 586 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 5: do this as eldest daughters. 587 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: You don't have to have kids to do this. We 588 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: do this in the workplace. 589 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 5: We are shouldering the cognitive labor for these emotional tasks, 590 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 5: for these physical tasks for our kids, and it's too much. 591 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 5: That's why this mental load that may have been a 592 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 5: little bit easier in the past is now unsustainable because 593 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 5: you're not just getting the one form that says bring 594 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 5: your kids to school for back to School Day. You're 595 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 5: getting a seventeen different apps with one hundred different forms 596 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 5: and a million different things and logging in here and 597 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 5: checking in here. And that's just for one of the cards, 598 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 5: which is transporting your kids to school. There's ninety nine 599 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,239 Speaker 5: other cards that you have to contend with. Life has 600 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 5: just gotten too overwhelming and women are shouldering too much 601 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 5: cognitive labor. 602 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 4: The schools need to chill out with the inmail house. 603 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, any school administrators listening. 604 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 4: One email a day is plenty. 605 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: It's too much, just too much. 606 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 4: Eve, thank you so much for coming on the bright side. 607 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: Oh thank you for your vulnerability and for letting me turn. 608 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 3: The tables and let you answer questions, and for bringing 609 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 3: all that heart. 610 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: Thank you, big hugs. 611 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 3: Eve Rodsky is the New York Times best selling author 612 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 3: of fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space. 613 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're joined by Hollywood 614 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 2: legend halle Berry. She joins us to talk about her 615 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 2: new horror film Never Let Go, how her menopause symptoms 616 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 2: got misdiagnosed as herpies, and how she feels about all 617 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 2: those halle Berry shout outs in popular music. 618 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 3: Thank you to our partners at Coligard, the one of 619 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 3: a kind way to screen for colon cancer in the 620 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 3: privacy and comfort of your own home. Talk to your 621 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 3: doctor or healthcare provider, or go to coliguard dot com 622 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 3: slash podcast to see if you are eligible to order online. 623 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 3: If you're forty five or older and at average risk, 624 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 3: ask your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with Coligard. 625 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 3: You can also request a coli Guard prescription today at 626 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 3: coligard dot com slash podcast. Listen and follow The bright 627 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 3: Side on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 628 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 3: get your podcasts. Join the conversation using hashtag the bright 629 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 3: Side and connect with us on social media at Hello 630 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 3: Sunshine on Instagram and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok, 631 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 3: and feel free to tag us Simone Boys and Danielle 632 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 3: Robe 633 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 2: See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.