WEBVTT - All About Short Course Architecture 0:00:00.170 --> 0:00:03.050 Short courses are having a moment right now. They're being 0:00:03.150 --> 0:00:05.960 built at a rake neck pace and they're enjoying a 0:00:05.980 --> 0:00:09.100 kind of cultural relevancy in the golf architectural world that, 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:12.399 you know, would have been hard to imagine 30 years ago. 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:15.860 A lot of exciting up and coming architects are getting 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:19.180 a chance to work on short course designs of their own. 0:00:19.950 --> 0:00:23.410 One of those architects, Benjamin Warren, is my guest for 0:00:23.450 --> 0:00:27.990 this episode. Benjamin was behind the loop at Chaska. a 0:00:28.020 --> 0:00:31.970 very innovative short course in Minnesota, and he's currently building 0:00:32.229 --> 0:00:36.410 the Half Mile at Terra Cotta in Illinois. In this episode, 0:00:36.490 --> 0:00:40.050 Benjamin and I talk about those projects, about the unique 0:00:40.270 --> 0:00:43.909 aspects of short course architecture, and about some of our 0:00:43.990 --> 0:00:48.150 favorite short courses in the world. I'm Garrett Morrison, and 0:00:48.190 --> 0:00:59.220 this is Designing Golf. All right, Benjamin, we're going to 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:03.340 be talking about short courses today. But first, I want 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:07.040 to discuss your background a little bit because I don't 0:01:07.060 --> 0:01:10.020 believe you've been on any of the Friday podcasts before. 0:01:10.660 --> 0:01:12.360 So I just want to introduce you to our listeners. 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:16.820 I believe you're originally from Scotland. When people hear you talk, 0:01:18.580 --> 0:01:20.480 they'll know that that's the case. Where did you grow up? 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:24.480 Yeah. So I was raised in North Berwick. Um, you know, 0:01:24.500 --> 0:01:27.140 mom and dad still live there. Uh, that's, that's very 0:01:27.180 --> 0:01:31.380 much home for me still, even though I, I, I 0:01:31.459 --> 0:01:33.600 live in a, in a different country now and I spend, 0:01:33.660 --> 0:01:36.480 you know, like everyone who does what I do like 0:01:36.540 --> 0:01:38.490 eight to 10 months a year on the road. So, uh, 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:41.100 but yeah, when I, when I think about home, it's 0:01:41.140 --> 0:01:44.500 definitely North Berwick and growing up on the links there and, uh, 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:47.770 you know, everything that, that, that, that entails. But yeah, 0:01:47.910 --> 0:01:50.900 for now I'm, I'm based in Tokyo and, uh, Yeah, 0:01:50.940 --> 0:01:53.340 I've been here for a while. Coming up for almost 0:01:53.340 --> 0:01:54.540 20 years in Japan at this point. 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:57.280 I want to go back to North Berwick real quick. 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.460 I mean, there's got to be no better place in 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.800 the world for an aspiring golf architect to grow up 0:02:03.860 --> 0:02:08.660 than North Berwick. James Duncan, who you've worked with, James Duncan, 0:02:08.700 --> 0:02:11.620 who has worked with Coren Crenshaw on a few projects, 0:02:11.660 --> 0:02:16.600 including Rambles, also spent a lot of time in North Berwick. 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:19.160 Did the two of you know each other or were 0:02:19.180 --> 0:02:20.240 you there at different times? 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:23.700 We actually did not, but I'm very proud to say 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.650 that I introduced James for membership a few years ago. 0:02:26.710 --> 0:02:29.190 So very happy to help him get into the club. 0:02:29.290 --> 0:02:32.470 And yeah, he's a great advocate for the golf course 0:02:32.510 --> 0:02:35.810 and the town. And I think having folks like that 0:02:35.990 --> 0:02:39.450 around who have a global perspective on what North Berwick 0:02:39.530 --> 0:02:43.620 is and its place in the world of golf is 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:47.700 great for all involved. So yeah, I was really pleased 0:02:47.740 --> 0:02:51.310 when James approached me and asked about you know, whether 0:02:51.350 --> 0:02:52.430 or not there was a way to kind of help 0:02:52.470 --> 0:02:54.910 him into North Berwick. And I think he came with, uh, 0:02:55.430 --> 0:02:58.090 you know, a letter of support from Ben Crenshaw, which 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.639 probably helps, right. So, you know, he was, uh, he, 0:03:00.740 --> 0:03:02.380 he made it in, he made it in. Okay. 0:03:02.700 --> 0:03:04.040 Brought a gun to a knife fight. 0:03:04.060 --> 0:03:09.410 Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, it's, it's incredible town. Um, and 0:03:09.490 --> 0:03:11.690 when you grew up in North Berwick, you're just surrounded 0:03:11.750 --> 0:03:13.889 by the most incredible golf. I mean, the hardest thing 0:03:13.950 --> 0:03:16.910 is when you when you grow up a little bit 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.850 and you forge outside of North Berwick, like the golf 0:03:19.870 --> 0:03:23.510 that you find is far less inspiring than all this ancient, 0:03:23.630 --> 0:03:26.590 you know, 150 plus year old golf that we, that 0:03:26.610 --> 0:03:28.450 we grew up with in our neighborhood. And, you know, 0:03:28.470 --> 0:03:30.160 that was, that was honestly the hardest thing for me. 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:35.220 It wasn't until a kind of very fortuitous circumstance where, 0:03:35.460 --> 0:03:38.220 you know, Renaissance golf design came to North Berwick and 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:43.350 we're building Renaissance club. And, you know, that, if you 0:03:43.410 --> 0:03:45.390 hadn't been in the States in the late nineties or 0:03:45.430 --> 0:03:48.890 early two thousands, you weren't really aware of the, the, 0:03:49.250 --> 0:03:51.450 the sort of, I don't know, second golden age, whatever 0:03:51.470 --> 0:03:54.130 you want to call it, but like this, you know, the, the, 0:03:54.250 --> 0:03:57.339 the golf design trend that was emerging and the, the 0:03:57.780 --> 0:04:01.520 very much more craftsmanship, you know, oriented golf courses that were, 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:03.300 that were being put into the ground. So, you know, 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.920 renaissance club was my first chance to see that. And 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.040 to meet a few of the guys, you know, especially 0:04:08.060 --> 0:04:09.750 Don Plasek was great. He kind of took me out 0:04:09.790 --> 0:04:12.670 and showed me around the project. And just to see 0:04:12.710 --> 0:04:14.890 what they were doing, to see the level of craftsmanship 0:04:14.970 --> 0:04:18.750 on that property was a game changer for me because, frankly, 0:04:20.550 --> 0:04:22.970 having not spent that much time in the States before that, 0:04:23.390 --> 0:04:26.289 the new golf courses that I'd seen were pretty disappointing. And, 0:04:26.350 --> 0:04:28.570 you know, this is just coming from someone who grew 0:04:28.610 --> 0:04:30.670 up in North Berwick, right? So I hope that's not 0:04:30.710 --> 0:04:33.089 like a, you know, a really egregious thing to say, 0:04:33.190 --> 0:04:36.370 but it's certainly a privileged environment to grow up in. 0:04:36.710 --> 0:04:39.540 And I think if you've internalized all the lessons you 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.520 learned from North Berwick and if you've you know, taking 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:45.359 the time to, to understand the architecture out there and 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:49.240 you try and, uh, take little bits and pieces of 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:51.960 that and insert it into your work for other architects 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:53.760 or on your own projects. I think you could go, 0:04:54.260 --> 0:04:56.580 you know, you're not going to do too bad. 0:04:57.700 --> 0:05:00.739 Did you realize as a kid, how special North Berwick 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.039 was from a design perspective? 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:07.600 It's more the context. So, I mean, so growing up 0:05:07.620 --> 0:05:09.020 as a kid in North Berwick, you're playing North Berwick 0:05:09.050 --> 0:05:12.710 kids course. And, um, You know, we have these 100-year-old 0:05:12.810 --> 0:05:16.130 competitions that have been running on the kids' course. And 0:05:18.470 --> 0:05:20.450 first of all, that's a remarkable place to learn to 0:05:20.470 --> 0:05:22.770 play golf. And even what you take away from that kids' 0:05:22.810 --> 0:05:25.070 course before you even get to the big course is 0:05:25.110 --> 0:05:28.370 pretty special, right? But when you're playing the kids' course, 0:05:28.390 --> 0:05:30.950 you can kind of see over, like, the closest green 0:05:30.970 --> 0:05:33.810 to the kids' course is the Redan. So you're playing, like, 0:05:33.830 --> 0:05:35.770 this really funky, cool little kids' course, but you're kind 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:37.900 of looking over the OB line to, like, just this 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:41.789 monster and these giant hazards. And this thing that you're like, 0:05:41.810 --> 0:05:44.570 you know that somehow eventually you're going to have to 0:05:44.630 --> 0:05:48.530 step up to playing that thing, which is not daunting 0:05:48.550 --> 0:05:50.250 for a kid. I think it's probably more exciting. But 0:05:50.670 --> 0:05:53.290 I think what helped me to truly understand like North 0:05:53.310 --> 0:05:56.010 Berwick's place in the world was just caddying at North Berwick. So, 0:05:56.029 --> 0:05:59.650 you know, from the age of 12 to whatever, sometime 0:05:59.710 --> 0:06:02.790 early into college, you know, I was looping North Berwick 0:06:02.810 --> 0:06:05.589 in the summer and you just had people from all 0:06:05.650 --> 0:06:08.480 over the world, people who were so unbelievably excited to 0:06:08.540 --> 0:06:11.930 be there playing North Berwick. And, you know, if you're, 0:06:12.350 --> 0:06:15.349 if you can't infer from that, that there's something pretty 0:06:15.390 --> 0:06:19.090 special about your hometown course, you know, it's, uh, it's, um, that, that, 0:06:19.190 --> 0:06:20.570 that's a, that's a bit of a, a bit of 0:06:20.610 --> 0:06:23.640 a flag right there. So, um, yeah. Um, I think 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.839 just the, just all those people traveling to North Berwick 0:06:26.860 --> 0:06:29.300 and appreciating North Berwick and their excitement for it helped 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:31.080 to rub off on you and make you realize that 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:33.140 this is something a little, a little bit unique, a 0:06:33.140 --> 0:06:33.740 little bit special. 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:36.859 So you, you mentioned earlier that you're, you're currently based 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.080 in Japan. How did that come about? 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:42.700 Uh, so I moved here in the early two thousands 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:45.960 to go snowboarding. Um, and you know, a winter of 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:51.620 snowboarding turned into still being here, whatever, 23 years later. So, um, yeah, 0:06:51.740 --> 0:06:55.810 it's a, it's a fascinating country, engaging country, um, really 0:06:56.589 --> 0:07:00.070 unique golf culture. Like Japan's interpretation of golf is, is 0:07:00.110 --> 0:07:02.410 pretty fun. And, you know, I, I've been to a 0:07:02.410 --> 0:07:03.990 lot of different countries and seen golf in a lot 0:07:04.010 --> 0:07:05.970 of different places and, you know, Japan has its own 0:07:05.990 --> 0:07:09.250 thing going on, but it's a really cool expression of golf. Um, 0:07:09.710 --> 0:07:13.950 and yeah, wonderful country to live in. Um, yeah, Tokyo is, uh, 0:07:14.090 --> 0:07:17.130 Tokyo is one of the world's great cities in my opinion. Um, 0:07:17.990 --> 0:07:21.200 so yeah, lots to like about living here and, uh, and, uh, yeah, 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:24.080 still here and, uh, you know, building some golf locally. 0:07:24.180 --> 0:07:27.480 So I tend to be recently, I've just been splitting 0:07:27.500 --> 0:07:32.140 my time between the States and Japan for, for work. So, um, yeah. 0:07:32.170 --> 0:07:35.380 We'll get into some of what you're doing in the States. Uh, 0:07:35.470 --> 0:07:39.110 our topic today is, is short course golf. golf architecture. 0:07:40.030 --> 0:07:42.710 And the reason I'm having you on for this topic 0:07:42.770 --> 0:07:46.630 is that you yourself have designed a short course recently 0:07:46.690 --> 0:07:51.710 and are in the process of designing another. So why 0:07:52.310 --> 0:07:55.710 don't we start with those two projects? The first one 0:07:55.730 --> 0:07:59.040 I think people may have heard about because we covered 0:07:59.130 --> 0:08:01.560 it at Fried Egg and it got a fair amount 0:08:01.580 --> 0:08:05.790 of attention. This is the loop at Shaska. So what 0:08:05.810 --> 0:08:08.790 are the basics that people need to know about this 0:08:08.830 --> 0:08:09.210 golf course? 0:08:10.530 --> 0:08:13.490 Lupichesco is really cool. You know, I was there last week, um, 0:08:14.090 --> 0:08:19.190 places playing incredible. The greens are super fun. Uh, we essentially, 0:08:19.230 --> 0:08:21.660 this was, this was a fascinating project for me. Um, uh, 0:08:21.710 --> 0:08:24.210 this RFB kind of hit my, hit my inbox out 0:08:24.230 --> 0:08:27.470 of nowhere. And, uh, you know, with an invitation to, 0:08:27.570 --> 0:08:30.410 to travel to Minnesota to interview for this short course 0:08:30.450 --> 0:08:36.010 redesign project. And the, I think that the, client or 0:08:36.070 --> 0:08:38.030 the you know the the driving force behind the project 0:08:38.090 --> 0:08:40.330 is barrier free golf which is based out of minnesota 0:08:40.350 --> 0:08:43.089 uh you know funded by tim anderson who's just a 0:08:43.309 --> 0:08:45.610 like a huge figure in that kind of local uh 0:08:46.550 --> 0:08:49.590 um you know minnesota golf scene he's like a usga 0:08:49.650 --> 0:08:52.069 rules guy and in recent years he's been really big 0:08:52.090 --> 0:08:54.410 into like the adaptive golf side of things and uh 0:08:54.850 --> 0:08:59.610 you know tournaments uh sort of supervision and uh yeah 0:08:59.630 --> 0:09:03.510 so he had a vision to transform like this kind 0:09:03.550 --> 0:09:11.800 of misunderstood uh slightly dangerous, you know, pretty boggy mini 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:15.760 short course in Chaska, Minnesota, and transform it into a 0:09:15.940 --> 0:09:22.730 showcase project for golf course design, which is fun for everyone, 0:09:22.850 --> 0:09:26.050 but has specifically thought about the needs of adaptive golfers 0:09:26.110 --> 0:09:30.630 and how to make the experience more you know, more fun, 0:09:30.970 --> 0:09:34.240 more equitable for them. You know, how can, how can 0:09:34.270 --> 0:09:37.150 you create a golf course where an adaptive golfer, like 0:09:37.220 --> 0:09:39.900 let's say an amputee, let's say someone in a, you know, 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.699 a seated golfer in a wheelchair for a blind golfer, 0:09:44.020 --> 0:09:46.480 you know, that we, we brought together like a whole, 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.959 a whole cast of incredible adaptive athletes to kind of 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.880 help us on this project. But essentially what we were 0:09:53.900 --> 0:09:56.920 trying to do was to create a golf course where 0:09:57.450 --> 0:09:59.570 A seated golfer, which is like the hardest golfer to 0:09:59.610 --> 0:10:03.320 design for just because of the the sort of accessibility 0:10:03.380 --> 0:10:07.199 limitations of those vehicles and like an able-bodied golfer could 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.640 have an equitable match with you know no dropping playing 0:10:10.660 --> 0:10:13.240 off the same tees you know so on and so 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.559 forth so that was really kind of the genesis of 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.609 the idea from barrier-free golf Um, the, as to how 0:10:19.730 --> 0:10:22.910 that was to be interpreted into a design was still 0:10:22.970 --> 0:10:26.530 kind of, you know, to be, to be determined. And, um, 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.060 you know, we had a lot of super smart people 0:10:29.620 --> 0:10:32.340 help us with the thinking and, and especially the, you know, 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.120 the group of adaptive golfers that we brought together. But 0:10:35.380 --> 0:10:37.740 I mean, I guess our, our core thesis was that 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:42.190 we wanted to make the place shine on the, on 0:10:42.210 --> 0:10:46.610 the basis of greens. And we wanted to have. essentially 0:10:46.690 --> 0:10:50.010 gravity based hazards. So, you know, all kinds of short 0:10:50.030 --> 0:10:53.790 grass hazards. Uh, we decided that we would build a 0:10:53.830 --> 0:10:56.130 couple of creeks out there or specifically one Creek and 0:10:56.190 --> 0:10:59.010 one smaller Creek out there because, you know, in under 0:10:59.030 --> 0:11:01.730 the rules of golf, like an adaptive golfer and able-bodied 0:11:01.750 --> 0:11:04.270 golfer essentially treated the same way, you know, for kind 0:11:04.309 --> 0:11:08.990 of dealing with that, that Creek. Um, but so going 0:11:09.030 --> 0:11:10.890 back to the very start of the project, I mean, 0:11:10.910 --> 0:11:14.320 this was a Trent Jones senior design short course, and 0:11:14.340 --> 0:11:18.320 he built it while he was building Hazeltine. And, you know, 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.220 it was a tournament short course, you know, to all 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.910 intents and purposes. It had four greens hard on the 0:11:23.950 --> 0:11:29.070 lake edge and pretty much everyone who played it. We're 0:11:29.110 --> 0:11:32.010 talking like a very, very diverse set of golfers from 0:11:32.050 --> 0:11:34.570 like good golfers to beginner golfers. Everyone was just losing 0:11:34.590 --> 0:11:38.090 a bunch of golf balls. And, you know, it's nice 0:11:38.130 --> 0:11:40.429 to have this, you know, water feature in the middle 0:11:40.460 --> 0:11:44.319 of the property, but it didn't look good. It was shallow. 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:46.959 It was full of algae. Um, it was just an 0:11:47.020 --> 0:11:49.839 amenity lake that had been kind of hogged out of 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.600 there to, in order to push greens onto the edge 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.080 of the lake, basically. So it didn't really function very 0:11:56.120 --> 0:12:01.140 well from a golf standpoint. Uh, the, the greens by 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.060 the lake edge were just way too hard. And actually 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.710 since the golf course had been built, you know, it was, uh, uh, 0:12:07.780 --> 0:12:10.380 basically the miss shot from the golf course was all 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:12.660 kind of to the right miss shot was all to 0:12:12.700 --> 0:12:15.890 an OB. And since the golf course was built, there 0:12:15.929 --> 0:12:18.370 was now a bunch of townhomes, a bunch of offices, 0:12:18.470 --> 0:12:20.670 and just a bunch of other stuff around the golf course. 0:12:20.710 --> 0:12:23.740 And every shot that left the golf property was just 0:12:23.790 --> 0:12:26.099 clattering into houses and offices and so on and so forth. 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:29.640 So either going into the water or going into houses. 0:12:29.780 --> 0:12:32.220 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you get scared of the water, 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:37.240 you're going to hit someone's house, basically. So there was 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:41.650 a lot that could be improved, right? The sparring position 0:12:41.690 --> 0:12:47.040 was pretty low. Um, and the city was very, um, 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:50.840 open to, you know, to our ideas. I mean, obviously 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:52.700 Tim had spent a lot of time building up trust 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.680 with the city. Um, you know, Hazel teams there, like 0:12:55.730 --> 0:12:59.290 this is like Chaska is a sort of high golf 0:12:59.410 --> 0:13:02.570 IQ town for a little town in the Midwest. Like 0:13:02.790 --> 0:13:06.010 they've hosted like a Ryder cup and a bunch of PJs, 0:13:06.030 --> 0:13:07.849 a bunch of women's PJs. I mean, this is a 0:13:07.870 --> 0:13:11.790 town that is aware of like the wider world of golf. And, 0:13:11.890 --> 0:13:14.790 you know, for sure that Mayor Matt Podraski, he'd been 0:13:14.809 --> 0:13:17.189 to Ryder Cups in Scotland. He'd been to obviously the 0:13:17.250 --> 0:13:19.250 Ryder Cups in the US. And, you know, they were 0:13:19.270 --> 0:13:22.380 sort of open and amenable to doing something kind of 0:13:22.460 --> 0:13:26.900 unique and different. And, you know, fortunately, when we started 0:13:26.980 --> 0:13:29.640 thinking about the project in earnest and we proposed that 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.660 we would move the clubhouse and reroute the entire golf course, 0:13:34.070 --> 0:13:37.410 the city was open to that because fundamentally it just 0:13:37.450 --> 0:13:39.890 had to happen. Um, the golf course was hidden in 0:13:39.929 --> 0:13:41.809 quite a strange part of the property, which is now 0:13:41.850 --> 0:13:44.469 the first green and it's, it's a much better first 0:13:44.510 --> 0:13:47.429 green than a clubhouse location. And, uh, you know, we 0:13:47.490 --> 0:13:50.030 moved the clubhouse over to the street edge, you know, 0:13:50.090 --> 0:13:53.030 by this busy kind of thoroughfare, which heads into Hazeltine 0:13:53.070 --> 0:13:55.170 and there's a mall there and a bunch of apartment buildings. 0:13:55.250 --> 0:13:57.800 So like we were kind of moving the clubhouse to 0:13:57.840 --> 0:13:59.959 a spot where it was, instead of being isolated in 0:13:59.980 --> 0:14:01.920 the middle of the property, it was now connected to 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.820 like the existing community. And, uh, know it's really cool 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.860 there's now you know really nice kind of um white 0:14:08.900 --> 0:14:11.699 wooden fences around the golf course so like walkers by 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.320 can kind of see into the golf course when you 0:14:13.340 --> 0:14:15.160 pull into the parking lot you've got these views right 0:14:15.210 --> 0:14:18.790 across it and uh we were also allowed to just 0:14:18.830 --> 0:14:21.430 completely flip the routing right you know turn the routing 0:14:21.450 --> 0:14:24.630 in reverse all our missed shots went into the former 0:14:24.670 --> 0:14:27.150 lake that we converted into this beauty this beautiful wetland 0:14:27.330 --> 0:14:29.340 we beautiful restoration project. 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:35.530 So you were designing this course in collaboration with Barrier 0:14:35.550 --> 0:14:41.400 Free Golf. It was intended to be accessible to adaptive golfers. 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:46.920 So I wonder what was different about designing a course 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.680 for adaptive golfers and what was the same as just 0:14:50.730 --> 0:14:52.410 designing any golf course? 0:14:56.010 --> 0:14:59.550 I mean, there's no reason an adaptive golfer can't play 0:14:59.810 --> 0:15:02.500 golf on cool greens, right? So So, I mean, we were. 0:15:02.660 --> 0:15:03.520 That doesn't change. 0:15:03.540 --> 0:15:03.760 Yeah. 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:05.590 No matter who you're designing for, you want cool. 0:15:05.630 --> 0:15:09.229 Right. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, that was the main 0:15:09.270 --> 0:15:12.790 thing was just like, let's build cool greens out there. And, uh, 0:15:12.890 --> 0:15:14.460 you know, to that end, we were really lucky. We 0:15:14.500 --> 0:15:16.860 had help from, uh, you know, Jimmy Craig stopped by 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.840 Jonathan Reister from Renaissance golf design. Brett Hochstein came out 0:15:19.860 --> 0:15:21.880 to design some greens, build some greens for us. So, 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:24.620 you know, we had a, like a murderer's row of shapers, 0:15:24.700 --> 0:15:28.920 I guess, uh, kind of helping us, but, um, Yeah, 0:15:29.020 --> 0:15:31.190 we did our due diligence. You know, we had an 0:15:31.230 --> 0:15:36.890 amazing design consultant called Tenelle Bolt from BC. Her dad 0:15:37.010 --> 0:15:39.310 had been a superintendent. You know, she'd had an injury 0:15:39.390 --> 0:15:42.470 in her late 20s that made her, you know, she 0:15:42.490 --> 0:15:45.150 became a paraplegic after that injury. But, you know, she'd 0:15:45.170 --> 0:15:48.020 grown up around golf all her life and, you know, 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:53.060 runs a sort of nonprofit providing adaptive equipment to, you know, 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.100 folks who need it. And it's just an amazing kind 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:57.970 of powerhouse and a wealth of knowledge about this kind 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.390 of thing. So, you know, we brought Tanel out there 0:16:02.270 --> 0:16:05.630 with us during the build. And, you know, we were 0:16:05.710 --> 0:16:09.330 kind of aware of the operating abilities and the sort 0:16:09.350 --> 0:16:14.010 of safety tolerances of the adaptive equipment. But, you know, 0:16:14.030 --> 0:16:17.960 if we jumped in that stuff, we wouldn't have learned 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:19.920 a whole lot. But having Tanel out there kind of 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.920 riding the equipment around our golf course, you know, in 0:16:22.940 --> 0:16:27.630 the dirt, just kind of stress testing our contours was eyeopening. 0:16:27.690 --> 0:16:30.350 I mean, it's brilliant. Like those machines are incredibly capable. 0:16:30.770 --> 0:16:32.890 I mean, if you're looking at like those, the paragolfer 0:16:32.910 --> 0:16:35.220 setups that the seated golfers use, I mean, that thing 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:37.500 is as stable as a triplex. It can drive up 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:42.480 pretty much anything. The only limitation comes for stability when 0:16:42.500 --> 0:16:45.560 you're trying to swing on a steep bank. So what 0:16:45.620 --> 0:16:49.210 that led us to was, okay, if we can, you know, 0:16:49.370 --> 0:16:52.370 avoid scenarios where golf balls are hanging up on steep banks, 0:16:52.450 --> 0:16:55.630 then this is, you know, going to, serve the adaptive 0:16:55.650 --> 0:16:58.670 golf community much better. So, and that's music to my ears. 0:16:58.730 --> 0:17:00.890 Cause that was just like, okay, well, everything's going to 0:17:00.910 --> 0:17:04.790 be fairway. If it's no green, it's fairway. There's, there's no, 0:17:04.810 --> 0:17:08.050 I don't think there's any rough to speak of in 0:17:08.109 --> 0:17:11.429 play in the golf course. Um, there's certainly nothing where, 0:17:12.060 --> 0:17:13.340 you know, a golf ball is going to hang up 0:17:13.410 --> 0:17:16.100 on a slope. That's so steep that someone in an 0:17:16.220 --> 0:17:18.919 adaptive vehicle, we'd have to try to swing on that 0:17:18.980 --> 0:17:20.419 slope and potentially lose balance. 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:21.020 Right. 0:17:21.140 --> 0:17:21.340 Yeah. 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:25.010 Pull like plug lies in really steep. small bunkers, that, 0:17:25.070 --> 0:17:28.440 that kind of thing you can, you can avoid, uh, in, 0:17:28.580 --> 0:17:29.240 in a course like this. 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.720 Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, fundamentally the, the no bunker, 0:17:32.740 --> 0:17:38.720 the no bunker aspect was really a no brainer to us. Um, the, 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.530 first of all, I mean, we're dealing with like a PT, 0:17:44.030 --> 0:17:48.710 like hilly sort of, you know, twin cities property, you know, 0:17:48.730 --> 0:17:50.330 a lot of context for bunkers out there. So we 0:17:50.350 --> 0:17:54.010 didn't really feel like, you know, having sand, having sand 0:17:54.050 --> 0:17:55.950 out of the loop was an essential part of the 0:17:56.430 --> 0:17:59.129 essential part of the project. And, you know, it's, it's 0:17:59.170 --> 0:18:01.340 just really, really hard for adaptive golfers to get in 0:18:01.380 --> 0:18:04.260 and out of bunkers. So there's, there's some special provisions 0:18:04.340 --> 0:18:05.979 in the, in the rules of golf. Now they sort 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:08.640 of merged the rules of golf a few years ago. And, 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:11.500 you know, adaptive golfers have special provisions for how to 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:13.020 deal with bunkers and how to drop and so on 0:18:13.060 --> 0:18:15.419 and so forth. But, you know, this goes back to 0:18:15.500 --> 0:18:20.280 our original goal where we wanted, An adaptive golfer and 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:22.159 an able-bodied golfer to just be able to have the 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.359 same golf experience without, you know, the adaptive golfer having to, 0:18:25.900 --> 0:18:28.920 you know, dive into the sort of specific like adaptive 0:18:28.940 --> 0:18:32.740 golf rules to compensate for something that they can't do 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:34.320 that an able-bodied golfer can do. 0:18:41.460 --> 0:18:44.190 This episode of Designing Golf is brought to you by 0:18:44.450 --> 0:18:49.250 Perfect Practice. Specifically the Perfect Practice putting mat and chip shot. 0:18:49.700 --> 0:18:53.340 So first of all, the Perfect Practice putting mat is 0:18:53.380 --> 0:18:57.220 the highest quality putting mat that I have encountered. It 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:02.320 really does simulate a realistic putting experience, partly because it's 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:06.760 made of this unique crystal velvet material, which creates a 0:19:07.109 --> 0:19:11.870 very smooth and precise ball movement. So that's the putting mat. 0:19:12.510 --> 0:19:16.190 Then there's the Perfect Practice chip shot, which is equally great. 0:19:16.270 --> 0:19:19.990 It's the only automatic ball return chipping net on the market, 0:19:20.470 --> 0:19:23.629 and it also includes an artificial grass mat and a 0:19:23.670 --> 0:19:25.950 target net, which lets you get in a ton of 0:19:26.010 --> 0:19:29.990 reps without chasing balls. It's great for both indoor and 0:19:30.130 --> 0:19:33.159 outdoor use. You can purchase the putting mat and the 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:36.859 chip shot at Amazon or Golf Galaxy, or you can 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:41.240 simply shop at perfectpractice.com where you can use the promo 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:43.260 code DESIGN for a discount. 0:19:43.540 --> 0:19:44.540 That's D-E-S-I-G-N. 0:19:46.770 --> 0:19:49.510 That's a special discount code for designing golf, so use 0:19:49.550 --> 0:19:52.650 that when you go to perfect practice.com, show some support 0:19:52.690 --> 0:19:55.679 for the podcast and get a great product. Perfect practice. 0:19:55.820 --> 0:20:05.540 Check it out. As I mentioned before, you're in the 0:20:05.580 --> 0:20:09.770 process of designing another short course now, This one in 0:20:09.850 --> 0:20:13.670 Prairie Grove, Illinois, which as I understand it is kind 0:20:13.690 --> 0:20:20.389 of like distant northwest suburbs of Chicago. This place is 0:20:20.470 --> 0:20:24.460 called the Half Mile at Terracotta. Tell me about this project. 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:26.840 I don't know much about it. I've seen a routing map, 0:20:26.980 --> 0:20:29.159 but I haven't heard the story behind it. So what's 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:29.640 going on there? 0:20:30.300 --> 0:20:34.790 So. the owners are the Terracotta or the family who 0:20:34.830 --> 0:20:37.810 own the Terracotta company or TC Industries and the Terracotta company, 0:20:37.850 --> 0:20:41.270 like their ownership of this stewardship, ownership of this property 0:20:41.310 --> 0:20:44.889 goes back almost a hundred years. It's really cool. So, 0:20:44.910 --> 0:20:49.320 you know, obviously we're building on a piece of family landholding, 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.240 so there's no land costs at the start. So it's 0:20:52.260 --> 0:20:54.440 really nice to be able to, you know, build a 0:20:54.460 --> 0:20:56.740 short course where you don't have land costs and you're 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:59.970 only going to be essentially passing like the construction costs 0:21:00.050 --> 0:21:04.390 onto the, onto the consumer. Right. So, um, like affordability 0:21:04.430 --> 0:21:07.530 is not necessarily like one of the key goals out there. Uh, 0:21:07.850 --> 0:21:11.170 I think we'll, we'll have some, um, some interesting, um, 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.220 you know, playing options out there, probably a little bit more, uh, 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.380 leaning into the way the Sweden's Cove operates with like 0:21:18.420 --> 0:21:21.540 day passes, like for, for us being like a 45 0:21:21.540 --> 0:21:23.800 minutes out of the metro area might be half day passes, 0:21:24.300 --> 0:21:27.340 something like that, but we'll create a, a way to get, 0:21:27.580 --> 0:21:31.030 you know, smaller, you know, pretty limited numbers of people 0:21:31.050 --> 0:21:33.290 that own that thing with a degree of freedom to, 0:21:33.310 --> 0:21:35.570 you know, play the way they want to play and 0:21:35.609 --> 0:21:38.090 just kind of, you know, hop around and play in 0:21:38.109 --> 0:21:40.170 big groups and do all the things that make Sweden's 0:21:40.190 --> 0:21:42.960 Cove like very, very fun. We started off in a, 0:21:42.950 --> 0:21:46.950 you know, a floodplain. Again, going with like the Sweden's 0:21:46.970 --> 0:21:50.719 Cove similarities, we are like 50% of our property was 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:53.699 in a floodplain. So the first move was to, you know, 0:21:53.740 --> 0:21:55.780 figure out how and where to find the dirt to 0:21:55.820 --> 0:21:59.790 kind of raise our golf features up. And fortunately, the 0:21:59.830 --> 0:22:02.409 property had been operating as a sod farm for 50 years, 0:22:02.690 --> 0:22:04.330 which was kind of cool. I mean, we turned up 0:22:04.369 --> 0:22:08.150 to break ground on the cleanest construction site you've ever seen. 0:22:08.330 --> 0:22:13.310 It was perfect. But yeah, it's simple, kind of tilty property. 0:22:13.530 --> 0:22:15.409 So we basically went up to the high side and 0:22:15.430 --> 0:22:17.390 we dug a giant quarry and played a few holes 0:22:17.430 --> 0:22:20.050 around the quarry and moved some dirt down into the 0:22:20.109 --> 0:22:22.230 low to kind of build up our greens. We built 0:22:22.270 --> 0:22:26.480 some creeks to get our you know, compensatory storage balance. 0:22:26.500 --> 0:22:31.420 So like the, you know, flood mitigation calculations, basically. And 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:35.760 the contractor DWS construction, which is Kirk Spieth and Derek Love, 0:22:35.780 --> 0:22:38.859 who are both kind of from Beverly background, went out 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.899 there with GNSS equipped bulldozers and basically did like a 0:22:42.940 --> 0:22:45.500 kind of Lido style project where they just went through 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:47.860 with my grading plan and just bulked everything into place. 0:22:48.540 --> 0:22:51.179 so uh yeah i made like one site visit kind 0:22:51.220 --> 0:22:53.080 of checked in with the guys you know we kind 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:54.960 of got oriented a little bit i went off to 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:57.060 work on something else for a month and when i 0:22:57.100 --> 0:22:59.280 came back like this landscape was just there it was 0:22:59.500 --> 0:23:02.639 it's incredibly fun so then i just basically hopped in 0:23:02.700 --> 0:23:05.199 after the guys and you know again like they did 0:23:05.260 --> 0:23:08.359 alito just kind of went through and and detailed out 0:23:08.420 --> 0:23:11.159 every green you know maybe moved some greens around it 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:13.630 just did little bits and pieces out there but by 0:23:13.690 --> 0:23:16.399 and large was just, you know, adding a layer of 0:23:16.460 --> 0:23:18.460 detail on top of the work that they'd done with 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:22.520 the big dozers and the GNSS. So like super efficient project. 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:25.520 It kind of has to be like such a short 0:23:25.540 --> 0:23:28.180 construction season in Chicago that, you know, anything you can 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:30.859 do to get a boost and get a headstart on 0:23:30.900 --> 0:23:36.220 the weather is pretty huge. So yeah, no, like really 0:23:36.270 --> 0:23:38.430 fun concept. We have a couple of bunkers out there. 0:23:38.490 --> 0:23:40.390 Like I said, it's not like really an adaptive kind 0:23:40.410 --> 0:23:44.130 of focused project by the client. Uh, Mr. Barry, um, 0:23:44.730 --> 0:23:47.659 didn't really want bunkers out there. I figured, you know, 0:23:47.700 --> 0:23:49.240 we'll throw a couple in there. We'll do like a 0:23:49.260 --> 0:23:51.119 little lion's mouth. We'll do a donut bunker in a 0:23:51.140 --> 0:23:53.740 green and just, you know, let's not, I didn't want 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:57.780 it to be sort of compared with the loop at Chaska, 0:23:58.380 --> 0:24:00.840 you know, as just trying to be the same thing 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:02.780 as the loop at Chaska. So that was important to, 0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:04.560 to push for a couple of bunkers out there and 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:07.429 those ones will be pretty fun. They'll see some action, but, uh, 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:10.970 you know, certainly not an undue, you know, maintenance overhead. 0:24:11.540 --> 0:24:15.139 So something that's really interesting about this project at Half Mile, 0:24:15.180 --> 0:24:20.250 which you mentioned, is the use of GNSS bulldozers. And 0:24:20.470 --> 0:24:23.390 if people don't know what that means, it stands for, 0:24:23.450 --> 0:24:28.510 I believe, Global Navigation Satellite System bulldozers. You know, something 0:24:28.590 --> 0:24:31.540 kind of parallel to GPS, I suppose. But basically what 0:24:31.580 --> 0:24:35.080 you have is automated bulldozers that can go out and 0:24:35.100 --> 0:24:38.060 kind of prepare the site for you in a general 0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:42.550 way so that then... the human shapers can focus on 0:24:42.670 --> 0:24:46.550 detail work and finishing and things of that nature. So 0:24:47.310 --> 0:24:51.030 what kind of difference did that process make at half mile? 0:24:51.090 --> 0:24:52.270 How did that all play out for you? 0:24:53.730 --> 0:24:58.010 Yeah, I mean, it's huge, Garrett. And there are still, 0:24:58.730 --> 0:25:01.100 even in the GNSS bulldozer, still an operator in there 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:03.060 at this point. I might get to a point where 0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:05.850 there's no operator, but Yeah, for now, someone's in there 0:25:06.190 --> 0:25:09.729 following a diagram which is kind of telling them what 0:25:09.750 --> 0:25:11.750 to do with the blade and where to cut, where 0:25:11.770 --> 0:25:12.830 to fill, and so on and so forth. 0:25:12.890 --> 0:25:15.090 Yeah, when I say automated, I don't want people to 0:25:15.130 --> 0:25:21.110 envision literal robots going out there. Yeah, it's just more 0:25:21.130 --> 0:25:24.760 that the operator has information that they're able to follow 0:25:24.890 --> 0:25:26.290 instead of kind of eyeballing it. 0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:31.200 Yeah, exactly. There's guidance there. So when we're doing the 0:25:31.240 --> 0:25:33.899 detail shaping, we're just doing it from eye. There's no... 0:25:34.619 --> 0:25:37.990 we're not really using stakes or elevations. It's just, um, yeah, 0:25:38.010 --> 0:25:40.649 just whatever looks good, whatever's going to work, whatever's going 0:25:40.670 --> 0:25:44.370 to give you the, the, the reaction of a golf 0:25:44.390 --> 0:25:46.530 ball on a green that you're looking for. But yeah, 0:25:46.609 --> 0:25:49.570 so the GNSS, you know, Kirk Spieth was out there 0:25:49.590 --> 0:25:52.030 for DWS and, and, and the D6 just kind of 0:25:52.750 --> 0:25:56.790 digging into our quarry and, uh, shifting dirt around the property. And, uh, yeah, 0:25:56.830 --> 0:25:59.070 he was, you know, he was bouncing around on some 0:25:59.109 --> 0:26:02.290 rocks and that thing. So he'll, he'll certainly remember, remember 0:26:02.310 --> 0:26:04.770 that phase of the project, but, um, Yeah, no, it 0:26:04.950 --> 0:26:08.369 was great. So for me, for my purposes, you know, I, uh, 0:26:09.790 --> 0:26:11.340 I kind of came in at the start of the project. 0:26:11.380 --> 0:26:13.239 Then I hopped away to work on something else. And, 0:26:13.460 --> 0:26:15.280 you know, by the time I came back a month later, 0:26:15.340 --> 0:26:18.240 the guys had basically roughed in the entire golf course. So, 0:26:18.800 --> 0:26:23.119 you know, 10 green pads, the clubhouse locations, the, uh, uh, 0:26:23.400 --> 0:26:25.060 a bunch of kind of creeks that we built running 0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:27.300 through the property. So then my task was just to 0:26:27.340 --> 0:26:29.540 go through kind of green by green, hole by hole, 0:26:29.640 --> 0:26:31.919 and just add a layer of detail on top of 0:26:31.960 --> 0:26:33.899 this base. I mean, it's hard to overstay. Like we 0:26:33.920 --> 0:26:36.399 started off with nothing on that property. And this is 0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:39.409 just a simple tilt kind of running down towards a 0:26:39.450 --> 0:26:42.909 river's edge. So, yep, nothing to work off of, you know, 0:26:42.970 --> 0:26:47.530 nothing worth, quote unquote, saving. So, yeah, just to get 0:26:47.590 --> 0:26:53.080 that kind of basic, you know, kind of contouring in there. 0:26:53.720 --> 0:26:55.300 And then to be able to see that and to 0:26:55.359 --> 0:26:57.760 make decisions about, well, okay, well, I'm going to raise 0:26:57.800 --> 0:26:59.600 this green up a little bit or lower this green 0:26:59.619 --> 0:27:02.080 down a little bit. But, you know, to basically have 0:27:02.140 --> 0:27:06.199 everything in place is huge. And I spent, I would say, 0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:10.270 45 to 50 days shaping out there, you know, for 0:27:10.270 --> 0:27:12.630 10 greens and a couple of teas in the Himalayas. 0:27:12.650 --> 0:27:17.690 So that's really a pretty efficient way to go about 0:27:17.710 --> 0:27:18.429 this kind of project. 0:27:25.590 --> 0:27:28.070 This episode of Designing Golf is brought to you in 0:27:28.150 --> 0:27:31.510 part by Friday Golf Club. So let me tell you 0:27:31.550 --> 0:27:35.949 about something that's going on right now in FEGC. I 0:27:35.990 --> 0:27:39.330 have started a book club. A bunch of people are 0:27:39.410 --> 0:27:44.250 reading Robert Hunter's 1926 book, The Links. This is a 0:27:44.450 --> 0:27:50.560 really entertaining, well-written introduction to golf architecture. Robert Hunter was 0:27:50.680 --> 0:27:55.850 one of Alistair McKenzie's associates and He was very responsible 0:27:55.970 --> 0:27:59.350 for a lot of the great things about Cypress Point 0:27:59.510 --> 0:28:02.650 and Meadow Club. And this book that he wrote in 0:28:02.650 --> 0:28:07.260 1926 is absolutely fantastic. We're reading it chapter by chapter 0:28:07.440 --> 0:28:11.220 in Friday Golf Club and discussing it. Recently, we just 0:28:11.320 --> 0:28:14.169 read the preface. This week, we're reading a couple of 0:28:14.210 --> 0:28:17.930 the first sort of sections of the book. And people 0:28:17.970 --> 0:28:19.750 are really getting into it. There's been a lot of 0:28:19.790 --> 0:28:23.830 good discussion already. So come join us. If you're interested 0:28:24.010 --> 0:28:26.129 in a book club of this sort, we might do 0:28:26.170 --> 0:28:29.920 it for other books in the future as well. Go 0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:34.679 to thefriedegg.com slash membership and join FEGC. 0:28:42.030 --> 0:28:42.160 So. 0:28:43.270 --> 0:28:46.570 those are two projects that you've been involved in that 0:28:46.610 --> 0:28:50.410 you've directed really the, the loop at Chaska. I, you know, 0:28:50.490 --> 0:28:53.100 Chaska is a tough one for me to pronounce for 0:28:53.130 --> 0:28:57.020 some reason or another. I say Shaska, I say Chaska, 0:28:57.160 --> 0:28:59.500 I say, you know, I never quite get it right, 0:28:59.560 --> 0:29:03.180 but I believe Chaska is the, is the, is the 0:29:03.220 --> 0:29:06.440 closest way to how I've, how I've heard people say it. 0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:10.220 In any case, the loop in Minnesota is, a half 0:29:10.280 --> 0:29:14.310 mile at Terracotta. Those are your two projects. But this 0:29:14.370 --> 0:29:18.230 is really part of a big trend in the industry 0:29:18.610 --> 0:29:24.470 that I've noticed. So before we talked, I went through, 0:29:24.490 --> 0:29:30.370 I tried to remember all the projects, short course projects 0:29:30.750 --> 0:29:33.330 that I've heard about recently, and I wrote some of 0:29:33.350 --> 0:29:36.650 them down. So this is by no means an exhaustive list, 0:29:36.730 --> 0:29:39.239 but these are some ones that I've kind of been 0:29:39.260 --> 0:29:46.040 tracking recently. You have a course called WeNip, which is 0:29:46.540 --> 0:29:50.490 pretty great, at Grand Geneva, which I believe is in Wisconsin. 0:29:51.450 --> 0:29:57.220 The architect is Matt Dusenberry. It opened in May 2026. 0:29:57.220 --> 0:30:02.080 You have the Cauldron at Sandwich Club in Connecticut. OCM 0:30:02.420 --> 0:30:05.980 is the architect on that project. It opened this season. 0:30:06.060 --> 0:30:09.390 That's a private golf club in Connecticut. You have Old 0:30:09.490 --> 0:30:14.130 Field in North Carolina. That's Smyers, Craig, and Coyne. Opened 0:30:14.270 --> 0:30:18.510 mid-year this year. Cool kind of public course, so more 0:30:18.550 --> 0:30:21.270 in the spirit of what you've been doing. You have 0:30:21.290 --> 0:30:25.170 a new short course at Wild Horse in Nebraska. Dave 0:30:25.230 --> 0:30:28.440 Axeland and Dan Proctor were run that project. I believe 0:30:28.540 --> 0:30:32.790 it opened this season. You have the Matchbox at Tobacco Road. 0:30:33.590 --> 0:30:38.530 Carlton Marshall Design is behind that one. Opened very recently. 0:30:38.730 --> 0:30:42.650 It is an artificial turf course. You have the 12-hole 0:30:42.770 --> 0:30:47.350 scurry course at Chichese Creek Club. Dave Zinkand is the architect. 0:30:47.810 --> 0:30:51.190 That just opened. You have a short course at Sweetens Cove. 0:30:51.670 --> 0:30:55.610 King Collins Dormer under construction right now. You have Sweet 0:30:55.670 --> 0:31:00.180 Tooth at Candy Root. North Carolina New Resort, Mike Kropowski 0:31:00.280 --> 0:31:04.420 and Michelle Wee West are on that project. That's under construction. 0:31:04.860 --> 0:31:08.260 You have Highside Golf Club, which has two short courses 0:31:08.540 --> 0:31:12.420 in North Carolina. Chris Spence and Katie Craig are working 0:31:12.510 --> 0:31:15.729 on that, set to open next year. And you have 0:31:15.910 --> 0:31:20.050 a new short course for First Tee Charleston. Brian Schneider 0:31:20.090 --> 0:31:23.010 and Troy Miller are working on that one. And that 0:31:23.070 --> 0:31:27.620 was just announced. Now that is... a partial, partial list 0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:32.080 of the projects kind of recently wrapping up or currently underway. 0:31:33.580 --> 0:31:39.660 If you're looking for particularly publicly accessible new build or 0:31:39.780 --> 0:31:44.220 complete redesign projects happening right now, a lot of them 0:31:44.300 --> 0:31:48.280 would be short courses as opposed to regulation 18 whole courses. 0:31:48.320 --> 0:31:53.479 Like a surprising proportion of those would be short courses. 0:31:54.420 --> 0:31:55.620 So what do you think? I mean, if you had 0:31:55.640 --> 0:31:58.090 to speculate, I know you're an architect and not a developer, 0:31:58.150 --> 0:32:00.510 not a, not a business person, but if you had 0:32:00.550 --> 0:32:03.930 to speculate, what do you think is behind this trend 0:32:03.990 --> 0:32:04.790 happening right now? 0:32:07.510 --> 0:32:12.760 Hmm. Um, I was speaking from like the architect side, 0:32:13.260 --> 0:32:16.600 these things are fun and fast to build. And I think, 0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:20.120 you know, from the developer standpoint, like that's also a 0:32:20.180 --> 0:32:27.350 desirable thing. You know, you're getting to. announce something, build it, 0:32:28.070 --> 0:32:34.990 open it pretty quick. And the examples you mentioned there 0:32:35.170 --> 0:32:38.670 are really, really diverse. I mean, that's some destination stuff. 0:32:38.730 --> 0:32:41.980 That's some urban stuff. That's some stuff, of course, is 0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:45.940 at private clubs, some resort-based things, some things in cities. 0:32:46.060 --> 0:32:52.710 I mean, there's clearly a lot of potential variety in 0:32:52.750 --> 0:32:57.120 the art form. And, uh, you know, the, the way 0:32:57.160 --> 0:33:00.800 I've heard it discussed, I think very effectively is in 0:33:00.840 --> 0:33:04.420 terms of if you really try to simplify is like 0:33:04.460 --> 0:33:10.710 revenue per yard. So you are not maintaining, you know, whatever, 0:33:11.830 --> 0:33:14.390 like 18 holes worth of fairways or 14 holes worth 0:33:14.410 --> 0:33:16.110 of fairways, whatever it is. Yeah. 0:33:16.150 --> 0:33:19.910 Regulation golf courses are highly inefficient uses of land in 0:33:19.950 --> 0:33:23.070 terms of revenue per yard. That is true. It's something 0:33:23.090 --> 0:33:26.610 you hear golf course developers talk about all the time. Yeah. 0:33:26.750 --> 0:33:29.150 So, you know, at your, at your sort of classic 0:33:29.190 --> 0:33:35.060 short course, um, you are as an operator and as a, uh, uh, 0:33:35.100 --> 0:33:37.560 you know, the, the team charged with maintaining it, you 0:33:37.600 --> 0:33:40.800 can put almost all of your focus into just making 0:33:40.820 --> 0:33:42.960 the greens perfect. I mean, I was at loop at 0:33:42.980 --> 0:33:45.880 Chaska last week. Greens are unbelievable. Like the guys are 0:33:45.900 --> 0:33:47.800 doing a beautiful job out there. Those things that like 0:33:48.340 --> 0:33:51.690 for a mini short course, first of all, I mean, 0:33:51.730 --> 0:33:54.910 those greens are super fun, but like the conditioning was wonderful. 0:33:55.030 --> 0:33:56.410 We had, we had a great, great time out there, 0:33:56.430 --> 0:33:59.350 all credit to the maintenance team at Cheska. So yeah, 0:33:59.390 --> 0:34:02.010 I just think the ability to really kind of pour your, 0:34:02.490 --> 0:34:05.530 your assets or your, your, your, your sort of maintenance 0:34:05.590 --> 0:34:10.230 resources into, into the, the part of the golf course 0:34:10.250 --> 0:34:12.160 that people spend the most time on and play the 0:34:12.200 --> 0:34:14.089 most shots on and spend the most time around is, 0:34:14.719 --> 0:34:16.960 is a, is a, is a pretty big benefit in 0:34:16.980 --> 0:34:20.989 that standpoint. But certainly just the cost to, get these 0:34:21.030 --> 0:34:23.890 things open, get them making money. It's, it's a lot 0:34:23.930 --> 0:34:27.770 lower than obviously, you know, like a, like a hundred 0:34:27.830 --> 0:34:31.590 acre or whatever, 150 acre property. Yeah. 0:34:31.650 --> 0:34:34.950 I mean, that's so true. It is, it is more 0:34:35.180 --> 0:34:41.160 efficient in terms of land use versus, you know, uh, the, 0:34:41.219 --> 0:34:46.020 the utility to the player, I guess. But traditionally we 0:34:46.080 --> 0:34:51.790 haven't seen that many standalone short courses. Often short courses 0:34:51.850 --> 0:34:56.259 have been connected to big resorts or have been in 0:34:56.420 --> 0:35:02.560 alternative playing area at clubs. It's been relatively rare that 0:35:02.600 --> 0:35:06.100 we've seen, especially par three courses, you know, these very 0:35:06.219 --> 0:35:10.830 small property golf facilities like the ones that you've worked at. 0:35:11.170 --> 0:35:15.370 It's been relatively rare to see those stood up as 0:35:15.930 --> 0:35:19.509 independent businesses. But now we're starting to see a little 0:35:19.550 --> 0:35:22.210 bit more of that. And I don't know, I guess 0:35:22.250 --> 0:35:25.129 I'm just sort of thinking out loud here. Neither you 0:35:25.170 --> 0:35:30.719 nor I really knows what is behind trying to make 0:35:30.780 --> 0:35:35.940 a standalone short course go as a business. But we 0:35:36.000 --> 0:35:38.080 have started to see more of them recently. And I 0:35:38.120 --> 0:35:40.360 wonder if that means that golfers have just started to 0:35:40.400 --> 0:35:44.640 become more open to the idea of going to a 0:35:44.719 --> 0:35:47.000 golf facility and just playing a short course. 0:35:49.260 --> 0:35:53.319 Well, Look, I think it's, if you really to, to 0:35:53.360 --> 0:35:57.380 boil it down, I think it's more about operators and 0:35:57.400 --> 0:36:01.819 developers understanding the importance of the hang. And if you, 0:36:01.880 --> 0:36:04.560 and if you want, I think it's a, it's a really, 0:36:04.620 --> 0:36:08.940 really helpful to look at the unlikeliness of like Sweden's 0:36:08.960 --> 0:36:12.460 Cove working as like a destination nine hole course in 0:36:13.160 --> 0:36:17.390 rural Tennessee. Um, I think the big takeaways from Sweden's 0:36:17.410 --> 0:36:21.620 Cove are, are the fact that, and then, you know, 0:36:21.640 --> 0:36:23.020 it took them a while to get to where they 0:36:23.060 --> 0:36:25.140 got to Sweden's Cove in terms of the operating model, 0:36:25.180 --> 0:36:28.680 but it's just a great place to go with a 0:36:28.700 --> 0:36:31.000 group of friends and hang out. And, you know, they 0:36:31.140 --> 0:36:32.900 are going out of their way to make sure that 0:36:32.920 --> 0:36:34.460 you have a good time and to make it kind 0:36:34.520 --> 0:36:37.020 of a little bit loose, a little bit fun, and 0:36:37.100 --> 0:36:39.859 just a very different experience from what you would either 0:36:39.920 --> 0:36:45.380 have at certainly like a, probably a public golf course, 0:36:45.420 --> 0:36:48.210 certainly a muni, certainly a private club. you know, there's 0:36:48.270 --> 0:36:52.839 maybe like little bits of the, you know, just the 0:36:52.880 --> 0:36:55.660 way that you can, you can kind of enjoy yourself 0:36:55.680 --> 0:36:57.960 at a private club if you're, you know, obviously part 0:36:58.000 --> 0:37:01.080 of the membership and there's, there's certain sort of some 0:37:01.160 --> 0:37:05.399 small elements of flexibility there. But like, just, I think 0:37:05.600 --> 0:37:10.070 giving a more, just a, just making a better hang, 0:37:10.110 --> 0:37:12.750 like more accessible and understanding the importance of that and 0:37:12.790 --> 0:37:18.450 how complimentary that is to fun architecture. And then, that 0:37:19.150 --> 0:37:21.330 don't get me wrong, like recreating like the magic of 0:37:21.370 --> 0:37:24.910 Sweden's covers is not an easy thing to do, but I, I, 0:37:25.200 --> 0:37:28.120 I sense that that's driving quite a lot of this, 0:37:28.200 --> 0:37:31.580 like recognizing the success of that. Yeah. 0:37:31.640 --> 0:37:37.050 Now that we have seen Sweden's cove succeed, the model 0:37:37.090 --> 0:37:39.600 exists and now other people can kind of follow it. 0:37:39.910 --> 0:37:43.250 That's a really good shout there bringing up Sweden's cove 0:37:43.370 --> 0:37:46.960 because Yeah, it took them a few years, but this 0:37:47.080 --> 0:37:52.469 idea of the nine-hole destination rural golf course did end 0:37:52.530 --> 0:37:56.150 up working quite well because people, one, discovered that it 0:37:56.190 --> 0:37:59.570 was a very fun course to play, and two, discovered 0:37:59.610 --> 0:38:01.790 that it wasn't that big of a bummer that it 0:38:01.850 --> 0:38:07.250 was just, quote-unquote, a nine-hole course, especially considering all the 0:38:07.290 --> 0:38:10.430 other things that the facility offered in terms of the, 0:38:11.390 --> 0:38:13.980 for lack of a better term, the vibe and And, 0:38:14.219 --> 0:38:16.820 you know, hanging out above the ninth green and watching 0:38:16.860 --> 0:38:19.060 other people come in, people just had a lot of fun. 0:38:19.560 --> 0:38:21.700 And so I guess that is, that is part of 0:38:21.739 --> 0:38:23.879 what these short courses are going to be trying to do. 0:38:24.000 --> 0:38:27.989 Like create a nice bar area and you go play golf, 0:38:28.050 --> 0:38:29.870 but then you also spend a good amount of time 0:38:29.910 --> 0:38:31.910 because you have a good amount of time because you 0:38:31.930 --> 0:38:34.190 haven't just played a five hour round of golf. You 0:38:34.230 --> 0:38:36.670 have a good amount of time to hang out and 0:38:36.890 --> 0:38:38.969 just kind of chill and drink a couple of beers 0:38:39.010 --> 0:38:39.390 or something. 0:38:40.550 --> 0:38:42.810 Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, when you look at the, 0:38:42.950 --> 0:38:46.230 like our situation at the half mile versus Sweden's Cove, 0:38:46.250 --> 0:38:50.670 I mean, we're like 45 minutes from North Chicago. Uh, 0:38:51.610 --> 0:38:54.319 we are probably an hour from Milwaukee. So, you know, 0:38:54.360 --> 0:38:57.580 if you can convince folks from those Metro areas, if 0:38:57.620 --> 0:39:01.180 you can dangle like some cool greens and, you know, 0:39:01.260 --> 0:39:04.259 just the, just kind of good hand public golf that 0:39:04.719 --> 0:39:09.650 doesn't really necessarily exist at this point in those, in those, uh, 0:39:10.420 --> 0:39:14.240 those communities and to kind of give them a chance 0:39:14.300 --> 0:39:18.879 to to just yeah come and you know maybe come 0:39:18.920 --> 0:39:21.600 for a half day you know drive down hang out 0:39:21.600 --> 0:39:24.930 you know lap this thing a couple of times come 0:39:24.930 --> 0:39:27.739 with a group yeah sure we've got a bar. We 0:39:27.780 --> 0:39:29.700 got a couple of bars out there. We got cocktails. 0:39:29.719 --> 0:39:31.520 We got you covered. We have a food truck parking, 0:39:31.560 --> 0:39:33.520 you know, we're, it's going to be a good time. 0:39:33.600 --> 0:39:37.890 And I think there's a really big golf population in 0:39:38.050 --> 0:39:41.190 suburban Chicago anyway, but I think when you're tapping into, 0:39:41.210 --> 0:39:44.490 you make it make sense for folks in the Metro 0:39:44.530 --> 0:39:47.330 markets as well. And I think it's a, it's, It's 0:39:47.350 --> 0:39:50.110 kind of a no-brainer out there in northwestern Illinois. 0:39:51.590 --> 0:39:54.299 Okay, so I'd like to get into the architectural side 0:39:54.320 --> 0:39:58.080 of things a bit here. What is kind of distinctive 0:39:58.219 --> 0:40:03.110 about short course golf architecture? What is potentially interesting about it? 0:40:04.239 --> 0:40:08.560 Are there ways in which, for you personally, designing a 0:40:08.640 --> 0:40:13.460 short course has freed you up as an architect? Does 0:40:13.500 --> 0:40:15.140 it allow you to let go of certain things? 0:40:17.550 --> 0:40:20.989 Yeah, you can get much more aggressive with greens. You know, 0:40:21.550 --> 0:40:24.930 the variables at a short course are so much smaller. 0:40:24.950 --> 0:40:29.360 You know, essentially folks are approaching a green from one 0:40:29.440 --> 0:40:32.040 angle and one angle only. You know, maybe there's a 0:40:32.060 --> 0:40:34.239 little bit of diversity angle. You can obviously kind of, 0:40:34.480 --> 0:40:37.279 you know, get some multiple tees out there, but it 0:40:37.300 --> 0:40:40.050 doesn't have the same kind of variables as folks playing 0:40:40.150 --> 0:40:42.430 like a full scale golf course and all the different 0:40:42.450 --> 0:40:45.630 things that can happen between tee and green, right? So 0:40:45.810 --> 0:40:49.129 you're eliminating that for starters, and obviously you still need 0:40:49.150 --> 0:40:51.410 to make the recovery shots around the green work. But, 0:40:52.969 --> 0:40:55.469 you know, the way that I've typically approached these projects 0:40:55.550 --> 0:40:58.290 is just to go out and think about, you know, 0:40:58.370 --> 0:41:02.490 my favorite, what are some of the most interesting second 0:41:02.530 --> 0:41:05.739 shots that you play out there on full-size golf courses? 0:41:05.820 --> 0:41:10.360 We're not really, never really, it's rare to be influenced 0:41:10.420 --> 0:41:13.730 by a, par three on these projects. It's funny, even 0:41:13.810 --> 0:41:17.970 though they're, they're obviously par three courses. I've personally, I've 0:41:17.989 --> 0:41:22.920 been taking more inspiration from, uh, really interesting second shots on, 0:41:23.100 --> 0:41:25.460 on par fours and third shots on par fives and 0:41:25.480 --> 0:41:27.700 trying to integrate some of those shots into the golf course. 0:41:28.300 --> 0:41:31.820 So just to, to make it really, you know, so 0:41:32.340 --> 0:41:34.150 if we go to the loop at Chaska, you know, 0:41:34.190 --> 0:41:37.649 we built like a, a kind of May West, the Alps, 0:41:37.670 --> 0:41:41.469 the green, um, You know, we built a version of, 0:41:41.489 --> 0:41:45.260 a little mini version of the Cape Green and Mid-Ocean Club. 0:41:45.540 --> 0:41:49.020 We built, you know, Brett built a crazy kind of 0:41:49.060 --> 0:41:52.200 double punch bowl plateau kind of arrangement there on the second. 0:41:52.320 --> 0:41:56.799 We built a little double plateau. You know, we built 0:41:56.860 --> 0:41:59.740 a kind of just tilty, old-fashioned kind of pizza box 0:41:59.760 --> 0:42:03.379 style green. So, you know, the opportunity to just throw 0:42:03.420 --> 0:42:06.120 out like a bunch of really diverse greens, but, you know, 0:42:07.040 --> 0:42:10.820 greens that you might be you know, attacking with a 0:42:10.880 --> 0:42:13.000 second shot on a, on a full size golf course. 0:42:13.920 --> 0:42:15.640 But yeah, just, just integrating some of those, you know, 0:42:15.880 --> 0:42:19.020 half mile, we, we went deep, you know, went to 0:42:19.360 --> 0:42:22.140 the North Berwick well, and we, we got a version 0:42:22.160 --> 0:42:24.370 of the 16th green out there. We did a, you know, 0:42:24.390 --> 0:42:26.629 a hole with a stone hole with a stone wall 0:42:26.670 --> 0:42:29.330 in front of it, kind of recreating that second shot 0:42:29.370 --> 0:42:30.690 into the 13th, the North Berwick. 0:42:32.390 --> 0:42:32.670 Yeah. 0:42:32.730 --> 0:42:37.989 Just, just some really like diverse, quirky shots. like a 0:42:38.070 --> 0:42:40.569 collection of just really, really interesting greens. And I think 0:42:40.590 --> 0:42:43.319 if you can nail that and then get the overall, 0:42:43.360 --> 0:42:45.739 so like the loop, the thing that defines the loop 0:42:45.800 --> 0:42:48.239 is like this giant wetland restoration project that we did 0:42:48.280 --> 0:42:50.340 in the middle. Like that's very much the character of 0:42:50.400 --> 0:42:53.680 that property. Uh, the half mile, you know, we've built 0:42:53.860 --> 0:42:56.810 just a bunch of creeks and the interaction between these 0:42:56.890 --> 0:42:58.790 creeks and the golf holes is really going to be 0:42:59.190 --> 0:43:00.830 the kind of character on that property. But that was 0:43:00.890 --> 0:43:03.170 also a function of having to, you know, to make 0:43:03.210 --> 0:43:08.210 the kind of floods um, mitigation, alleviation, the, the compensatory 0:43:08.230 --> 0:43:11.710 storage thing work out there. So, um, yeah, so I 0:43:11.770 --> 0:43:15.879 think you can, you can add, there's just a lot 0:43:15.900 --> 0:43:18.620 of detail. Like it's quite an immersive experience. Like when you're, 0:43:18.660 --> 0:43:21.879 when you're on the half mile, there's a lot going 0:43:21.920 --> 0:43:24.020 on around you. There's a lot of greens around. There's 0:43:24.060 --> 0:43:26.819 a lot of like really kind of cool features, you know, 0:43:26.900 --> 0:43:29.370 winding through all the greens and kind of giving the 0:43:29.410 --> 0:43:32.430 holes like a little bit of, um, sort of physical separation, 0:43:32.469 --> 0:43:36.469 if not visual separation. And, um, yeah it's just kind 0:43:36.489 --> 0:43:38.730 of as you turn through that property it's just kind 0:43:38.790 --> 0:43:42.410 of cool green after cool green and you know neat 0:43:42.510 --> 0:43:45.030 kind of views that just have a lot of golf 0:43:45.090 --> 0:43:47.350 in them like you're just in a golf playground right 0:43:47.410 --> 0:43:50.110 it's a it's a very different experience to being on 0:43:50.150 --> 0:43:53.770 a full-size golf course typically and uh you know to 0:43:53.790 --> 0:43:55.489 the earlier point if you combine that with a good 0:43:55.530 --> 0:43:57.969 hang and a degree of freedom to to enjoy the 0:43:58.010 --> 0:43:59.890 golf course the way that you feel like enjoying at 0:43:59.930 --> 0:44:03.010 that particular time um these things can just be incredibly 0:44:03.050 --> 0:44:07.360 popular and you know you can not necessarily charge accordingly, 0:44:07.420 --> 0:44:11.320 but like, it's not like, uh, this is somewhere between 0:44:11.360 --> 0:44:16.100 like a premium golf product and, uh, you know, you, 0:44:16.180 --> 0:44:18.450 you can, you can price it in a way where 0:44:19.239 --> 0:44:25.730 the conditioning can be, you know, comparable to, you know, 0:44:25.770 --> 0:44:29.690 playing like a really elite condition golf course. I think 0:44:29.710 --> 0:44:32.739 you can, you can make that, Because again, you're just 0:44:32.800 --> 0:44:37.840 focusing all of your maintenance expertise and resources into a 0:44:38.580 --> 0:44:42.960 relatively small area. So with a relatively modest budget compared 0:44:42.980 --> 0:44:44.320 to a normal golf course, you can still have the 0:44:44.360 --> 0:44:47.870 thing singing. I mean, it can be very fun. Very 0:44:47.910 --> 0:44:48.950 fun playing conditions out there. 0:44:49.690 --> 0:44:54.529 Yeah, the maintenance is much more concentrated and efficient for 0:44:54.570 --> 0:44:58.430 sure because you're not maintaining a massive property. Of course, 0:44:58.469 --> 0:45:00.800 it also means that the play, the wear and tear, 0:45:01.489 --> 0:45:05.049 is more concentrated as well on, on teas and greens. And, 0:45:05.260 --> 0:45:08.230 and that does create some challenges. I've, I've talked to, uh, uh, 0:45:08.920 --> 0:45:11.140 the people at sand Valley about this before. And, and, 0:45:11.360 --> 0:45:13.640 you know, that, that is a tough job, but if 0:45:13.680 --> 0:45:16.020 you can spread out the wear and tear through different 0:45:16.040 --> 0:45:19.739 pin positions and different T positions, then, then you really, uh, 0:45:20.530 --> 0:45:22.870 help yourself there. But yeah, I mean, short courses are, 0:45:23.150 --> 0:45:27.750 are unique in terms of this concentration of everything, right? 0:45:27.890 --> 0:45:30.290 Concentration of players. When you're on a short course, you 0:45:30.350 --> 0:45:33.860 feel like, you're really social because there are other players 0:45:34.480 --> 0:45:37.279 right close to you. And you also feel like there's, 0:45:37.560 --> 0:45:41.520 there's cool golf features everywhere because they're, they're all within 0:45:42.239 --> 0:45:45.790 your site kind of right. There's the, you see more, 0:45:45.950 --> 0:45:49.790 it's more information dense, I guess. And that's, that's gotta 0:45:49.830 --> 0:45:52.049 be fun for an architect because as an architect, you're 0:45:52.070 --> 0:45:55.170 always thinking about what is the player seeing from any 0:45:55.210 --> 0:45:57.710 given point on the property. Well, when you're designing a 0:45:57.730 --> 0:46:00.580 short course, as opposed to a regulation course, you really 0:46:00.620 --> 0:46:04.319 get to do a lot with those sight lines compared to, 0:46:04.340 --> 0:46:08.219 you know, what you would do at a much bigger property, right? 0:46:09.260 --> 0:46:11.680 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of my favorite pictures out 0:46:11.700 --> 0:46:14.799 at the loop at Chaska is there's a stack of 0:46:14.880 --> 0:46:19.500 four greens from like right across the property that, you know, 0:46:19.520 --> 0:46:21.620 they all kind of more or less line up and 0:46:21.640 --> 0:46:23.660 you've just got kind of flag after flag after flag 0:46:23.700 --> 0:46:26.299 and really interesting diverse greens kind of coming in from 0:46:26.320 --> 0:46:28.900 different angles. Like it looks super, super cool. So as 0:46:28.920 --> 0:46:31.400 you turn around and kind of look through the property, 0:46:31.420 --> 0:46:34.520 you get all these really interesting looks of like very, 0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:39.009 very dense golf. And, you know, to your earlier point, 0:46:40.330 --> 0:46:45.710 the size of those features is, I would say that 0:46:45.750 --> 0:46:48.190 what we've done at the Half Mile is like pretty 0:46:48.770 --> 0:46:53.680 whimsical golf architecture. Like we have our square footage of 0:46:53.739 --> 0:46:56.510 our greens out there for 10 greens is, you know, 0:46:56.550 --> 0:46:58.610 probably bigger than it would be on an 18 hole 0:46:58.630 --> 0:47:01.910 golf course. The square footage of the teas out there is, 0:47:02.190 --> 0:47:04.670 you know, bigger than the greens. So it's, it's essentially 0:47:04.810 --> 0:47:07.690 just the way we looked at it was that the 0:47:07.810 --> 0:47:09.910 areas that when you look at, you know, a drone 0:47:09.930 --> 0:47:12.049 shot of the half mile, the areas that would appear 0:47:12.070 --> 0:47:14.430 to be fairways are essentially all just treated as teas 0:47:14.510 --> 0:47:17.490 and drained and constructed as teas. So, I mean, you're, 0:47:17.590 --> 0:47:22.070 you can essentially tee up anywhere and, uh, And yeah, 0:47:22.150 --> 0:47:24.830 the greens are enormous. You know, one of the things 0:47:24.890 --> 0:47:27.170 I think we wanted to do was to potentially support 0:47:27.210 --> 0:47:29.469 like two flag setups. Again, same as we do at 0:47:29.489 --> 0:47:32.910 Sweden's Cove. I'm not sure that would necessarily be like 0:47:32.930 --> 0:47:37.250 a day-to-day setup thing. But I think having the opportunity 0:47:37.290 --> 0:47:40.590 to do that for specific groups, I think is a 0:47:40.610 --> 0:47:44.049 very cool thing and just helps to let people, you know, 0:47:44.850 --> 0:47:47.489 get off the 10th hole and immediately think about going 0:47:47.530 --> 0:47:49.450 back to the first hole and like, let's, let's play 0:47:49.489 --> 0:47:51.990 this thing differently or let's play cross country or whatever 0:47:52.030 --> 0:47:55.509 it is. Just, you know, shouldn't be too hard to 0:47:55.550 --> 0:47:56.739 have fun out there. Let's put it that way. 0:47:57.890 --> 0:47:59.779 So to go back to one of your earlier points, 0:47:59.840 --> 0:48:02.219 I want to make sure I understood you correctly when 0:48:02.239 --> 0:48:04.719 you're talking about why you could be a little more 0:48:04.800 --> 0:48:08.600 bold with short course greens. Does that have something to 0:48:08.640 --> 0:48:10.540 do with the fact that players are playing them from 0:48:10.700 --> 0:48:13.700 only one direction and you don't need to be quite 0:48:13.760 --> 0:48:18.299 as conservative? with the contours as you would if you're 0:48:18.320 --> 0:48:21.760 trying to accommodate, you know, a number of different approach 0:48:21.780 --> 0:48:24.049 shots that they might be hitting into the green? Is 0:48:24.070 --> 0:48:26.210 that kind of what your argument would be? 0:48:27.730 --> 0:48:31.569 So I, like the way I look at golf architecture 0:48:31.610 --> 0:48:34.710 and the way I play golf as someone who grew 0:48:34.750 --> 0:48:38.989 up in Scotland, I'm looking at so I think we'll 0:48:39.010 --> 0:48:40.570 come back to like, you're the main part of your question, 0:48:40.610 --> 0:48:43.700 but like, I'm looking at like aerial approaches to running 0:48:43.739 --> 0:48:46.680 approaches to like hitting a putter on all, basically all 0:48:46.700 --> 0:48:49.020 of these holes, the trajectory that a golf ball is, 0:48:49.239 --> 0:48:52.940 is coming in towards these greens is, is, you know, there, 0:48:53.000 --> 0:48:56.450 there's a lot of variability. There's a lot of, uh, 0:48:56.510 --> 0:48:59.770 you know, option to play different trajectory shots into these 0:48:59.830 --> 0:49:05.049 things and to use little contours to bank into certain pins. But, um, yeah, it, 0:49:05.780 --> 0:49:11.580 To your main point, like there's a far smaller spread of, 0:49:11.630 --> 0:49:13.790 you know, where golf balls could potentially be coming into 0:49:13.810 --> 0:49:16.210 the green from. So, you know, you can afford to 0:49:16.230 --> 0:49:18.100 be like a little a little bit more aggressive than 0:49:18.140 --> 0:49:20.719 you would in an 18 hole setting. Like, absolutely. I mean, 0:49:21.239 --> 0:49:29.220 it's just all about those variables and the, um, you know, relatively, 0:49:29.239 --> 0:49:34.839 you know, similar, um, you know, playing lines into each green. But, 0:49:34.989 --> 0:49:36.989 you know, we, we obviously, the way we were thinking 0:49:37.030 --> 0:49:39.690 about the half mile was to, to, to create some 0:49:39.730 --> 0:49:42.250 kind of cross country options out there. So, you know, 0:49:42.310 --> 0:49:44.630 there's some greens that would be, you know, if you, 0:49:45.610 --> 0:49:47.350 I mean, there's certain greens like on a, on an 0:49:47.350 --> 0:49:48.790 18 year old golf course, like if you were trying 0:49:48.810 --> 0:49:51.350 to play into a Redan from the wrong sides, like, right, 0:49:51.450 --> 0:49:54.130 good luck. Right. So, you know, they're, they're not necessarily 0:49:54.170 --> 0:49:57.469 going to work from every angle, but I think, you know, 0:49:57.489 --> 0:49:59.470 that's up to golfers to figure that out for themselves. 0:49:59.510 --> 0:50:01.569 You know, there'll be some extremely hard shots out there. 0:50:01.630 --> 0:50:04.190 You might have to, to use a little contour somewhere 0:50:04.230 --> 0:50:06.529 over there to kind of bank, stun it and kind 0:50:06.570 --> 0:50:08.190 of bank it around and get it to the green. 0:50:08.250 --> 0:50:10.790 But yeah, there'll be a, there'll be lots of fun 0:50:10.810 --> 0:50:12.850 to be had on those greens. Yeah. 0:50:12.950 --> 0:50:16.109 I think another factor here is that golfers are just 0:50:16.469 --> 0:50:19.640 taking themselves a little bit less seriously on a short 0:50:19.680 --> 0:50:23.919 course than they are on a regulation course. You know, the, the, 0:50:24.040 --> 0:50:27.040 the score, the, the, the handicap is, is not as 0:50:27.100 --> 0:50:29.640 much a part of the picture for them when, when 0:50:29.660 --> 0:50:32.990 they're playing these courses and, And so they can loosen 0:50:33.050 --> 0:50:36.570 up a little bit and maybe accept really bold green 0:50:36.630 --> 0:50:40.050 features in a way that they might not normally. I 0:50:40.640 --> 0:50:43.000 know I sort of find myself reacting that way to 0:50:43.040 --> 0:50:47.440 short courses myself, even though I'm fine with big, bold 0:50:47.480 --> 0:50:50.719 greens at normal regulation courses. But when I'm playing a 0:50:50.760 --> 0:50:54.969 short course, it's not even something that's in consideration for me, 0:50:55.030 --> 0:50:58.750 whether I find this green to be too severe or 0:50:59.130 --> 0:51:02.549 gimmicky or whatever else. I'm just not I'm not in 0:51:02.590 --> 0:51:05.250 that frame of mind, right. When I'm playing a short course. 0:51:05.290 --> 0:51:08.230 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I, like, I think with a 0:51:08.270 --> 0:51:10.270 short course, just like with a full golf course, it's 0:51:10.330 --> 0:51:13.109 important to have some rhythm and cadence to the run, right. 0:51:13.150 --> 0:51:16.989 You don't want to just have, you know, it's not 0:51:17.090 --> 0:51:20.370 kind of full accelerator or like full throttle on every hole. 0:51:20.570 --> 0:51:23.129 You know, you're looking for some, some more, some more 0:51:23.170 --> 0:51:26.210 subtle greens. You're looking for some, you know, just to, 0:51:26.310 --> 0:51:30.120 just to set up like different shots, uh, just to, 0:51:30.200 --> 0:51:33.359 to give people, um, you know, chance to, you know, 0:51:33.420 --> 0:51:36.140 have sort of high points and, and, you know, quieter 0:51:36.200 --> 0:51:37.680 points in the round and so on and so forth. 0:51:37.719 --> 0:51:40.600 I mean, that's, that's important in short course architecture, full 0:51:40.620 --> 0:51:42.279 size architecture. Yeah. 0:51:43.410 --> 0:51:47.089 Now to, to address the other side of this, there 0:51:47.170 --> 0:51:49.790 are a lot of fun opportunities for architecture at short 0:51:49.830 --> 0:51:52.930 course at short courses. You know, it, it, it does 0:51:53.570 --> 0:51:55.509 you know, we've, we've, we've talked about that. I can 0:51:55.550 --> 0:51:58.310 see how a golf architect might find this kind of architecture, 0:51:58.370 --> 0:52:02.989 very fun and, and kind of, Like the governor is 0:52:03.130 --> 0:52:06.740 off in a lot of ways. At the same time, 0:52:06.760 --> 0:52:11.000 I have heard some golfers say that after a while, 0:52:11.800 --> 0:52:16.900 they find short courses maybe a little bit boring or 0:52:17.460 --> 0:52:21.360 repetitive to a degree, right? And I think that the 0:52:21.380 --> 0:52:25.259 reason for that is very simple, and that's that regulation 0:52:25.340 --> 0:52:30.490 courses have a key advantage in terms of hole-to-hole variety. 0:52:31.560 --> 0:52:34.920 they get to use a few par threes, a bunch 0:52:34.960 --> 0:52:38.310 of par fours, and a few par fives. And so 0:52:38.390 --> 0:52:41.469 just in terms of length of hole and the number 0:52:41.510 --> 0:52:44.950 of shots that you hit on a certain hole, regulation 0:52:45.010 --> 0:52:49.680 courses can differentiate their holes from each other much more effectively. 0:52:50.360 --> 0:52:54.360 At short courses, generally your tool is just par threes. 0:52:54.900 --> 0:52:56.980 Now there are some short courses being built right now 0:52:57.040 --> 0:53:02.310 that interestingly incorporate par fours or even par fives with, 0:53:02.710 --> 0:53:05.110 you know, a concentration of par threes. I'm thinking of 0:53:05.170 --> 0:53:08.759 the commons at sand Valley or, uh, Dave Zinkan's course at, 0:53:08.960 --> 0:53:11.799 at to Chessie Creek there, there are some longer holes 0:53:11.880 --> 0:53:14.219 on those horse, uh, on those courses while at the 0:53:14.260 --> 0:53:18.259 same time, they are clearly short courses, but most short 0:53:18.320 --> 0:53:20.690 courses and the ones that you've built are all par threes. 0:53:21.530 --> 0:53:25.989 So how do you deal with that limitation? Like how 0:53:26.010 --> 0:53:28.450 do you create whole to whole variety of, When the 0:53:28.530 --> 0:53:30.290 only tool at your disposal is the par three. 0:53:31.810 --> 0:53:34.969 So, well, the loop actually has one par four and 0:53:35.730 --> 0:53:37.250 the par four that we snuck in there. We just 0:53:37.290 --> 0:53:39.430 had like one part of the property that was suitable 0:53:39.469 --> 0:53:41.920 for hitting for like a, an elite player to hit 0:53:41.960 --> 0:53:44.359 driver in. Right. So we're like, okay, well, let's take 0:53:44.380 --> 0:53:46.620 advantage of this one part of the property. And essentially 0:53:46.640 --> 0:53:48.880 this is like a par five for kids, right. Or 0:53:48.940 --> 0:53:50.739 par six for kids, probably par five from kids for 0:53:50.760 --> 0:53:53.620 the front T. But yeah, it was just, we just 0:53:53.660 --> 0:53:56.170 had one part of the property that was you know, 0:53:56.250 --> 0:53:59.989 between a railway line, property line and the wetland that 0:54:00.030 --> 0:54:01.790 was kind of wide enough to just let people have 0:54:01.830 --> 0:54:04.630 like a big old swing out there. So we were like, okay, cool. 0:54:04.690 --> 0:54:09.870 Let's keep that one long hole, our long hole out there. But, 0:54:10.250 --> 0:54:13.510 you know, more so than like the variety of like 0:54:13.640 --> 0:54:15.540 length of shots, it's like the type of shots that 0:54:15.560 --> 0:54:17.900 we're encouraging people to hit. And like, you're talking to 0:54:17.920 --> 0:54:22.120 like a Scottish Lynx kid here, right? So, I mean, 0:54:22.280 --> 0:54:25.470 I would hope that you know, folks at the half mile, 0:54:25.750 --> 0:54:30.310 certainly when I'm playing the half mile from hole to hole, 0:54:30.330 --> 0:54:33.130 I might be pulling, and these holes are all, you know, 0:54:33.150 --> 0:54:35.770 a hundred and a hundred yards of change there, thereabouts. 0:54:36.450 --> 0:54:38.820 I'll be pulling anything from six iron to nine iron 0:54:38.840 --> 0:54:42.060 to wedge to putter on these golf holes, just to, 0:54:42.360 --> 0:54:47.360 you know, so that the, the, the proposition is, is 0:54:47.460 --> 0:54:50.340 quite diverse. And, you know, I think depending on the 0:54:50.380 --> 0:54:53.250 pin positions they're using out there, There's some pin positions 0:54:53.310 --> 0:54:55.850 which are very conducive to a running approach. You know, 0:54:55.890 --> 0:54:58.710 others are aerial, others might be, well, it makes it 0:54:58.730 --> 0:55:00.870 a no-brainer to pull a putter on that thing. I mean, 0:55:00.890 --> 0:55:04.680 I was playing the Commons last week. I mean, I 0:55:04.739 --> 0:55:07.319 was pulling putter on some par threes of the Commons, right? 0:55:07.400 --> 0:55:10.160 I mean, especially there where it's fescue, like to me, 0:55:10.200 --> 0:55:13.120 that's a no-brainer. I mean, I'm almost happier just like 0:55:13.200 --> 0:55:17.770 bunting a putter up there than pulling wedge. But no, 0:55:17.790 --> 0:55:19.870 I think it's the variety of shots that we're encouraging 0:55:19.910 --> 0:55:23.860 people to hit. And, you know, I'm not, expecting everyone 0:55:23.880 --> 0:55:26.160 to necessarily see the same shots that I see because 0:55:26.200 --> 0:55:28.140 I grew up in North Berwick and that's just the 0:55:28.180 --> 0:55:31.339 shots that you kind of have to hit. But yeah, 0:55:31.400 --> 0:55:34.439 I would like to think that over time people will 0:55:34.460 --> 0:55:36.799 start to see some of those shots and find sort 0:55:36.820 --> 0:55:39.549 of ways to play the half mile without just kind 0:55:39.590 --> 0:55:42.790 of default pulling wedge on every hole. Yeah. 0:55:43.610 --> 0:55:45.650 Do you think there's such a thing as a strategic 0:55:45.710 --> 0:55:49.900 par three? I've had this discussion before. I kind of like... 0:55:50.340 --> 0:55:54.580 Because usually the way we think about strategic design has 0:55:54.600 --> 0:55:58.290 to do with the interaction between two full shots, right? 0:55:58.710 --> 0:56:03.610 And the relationship between where you place your drive and 0:56:03.670 --> 0:56:06.170 what the resulting approach shot is. And so when it 0:56:06.210 --> 0:56:08.250 comes to a par three, it's a little hard to 0:56:08.710 --> 0:56:10.410 sort out what strategy is there. 0:56:11.430 --> 0:56:15.020 Well, I think the main thing is just knowing where 0:56:15.060 --> 0:56:20.130 to miss. Knowing if you... Depending on the situation in 0:56:20.170 --> 0:56:23.250 your match or depending on what number you need to get, 0:56:23.310 --> 0:56:26.719 if you have a scorecard in your hand, you're just 0:56:26.760 --> 0:56:29.940 trying to eliminate some. There should be some risks on 0:56:29.980 --> 0:56:31.920 a par three. If you think about the great par threes, 0:56:31.980 --> 0:56:35.540 like there's ways to hang yourself, right? So I think 0:56:35.580 --> 0:56:40.129 when you have some really sort of severe features, take 0:56:40.170 --> 0:56:44.020 a Calamity, take a Redan, you know, the devil's divot 0:56:44.060 --> 0:56:46.890 at Girono or something like that, right? Some of these 0:56:47.130 --> 0:56:51.310 classic par threes where, you know, if you hit like 0:56:52.070 --> 0:56:55.190 the shot that you should never, never hit, you could 0:56:55.210 --> 0:56:59.009 be having like a really big number. And then, you know, 0:56:59.030 --> 0:57:02.300 I think the strategy in that is if you have to, 0:57:02.600 --> 0:57:04.600 you have to understand what the miss is. And if it's, 0:57:04.800 --> 0:57:07.160 let's just take North Berger Dan, if you need a 0:57:07.200 --> 0:57:09.839 number there, you're hitting it long left every time. And 0:57:09.860 --> 0:57:11.839 like hitting it long left is not bailout. Like you 0:57:11.880 --> 0:57:15.620 need to, pool more club you need to think about 0:57:15.640 --> 0:57:18.180 the fact that like okay i'm you know best case 0:57:18.200 --> 0:57:19.830 scenario i want this to land kind of middle of 0:57:19.870 --> 0:57:21.810 the green roll out through the back left and then 0:57:21.850 --> 0:57:25.110 i've got you know a relatively straightforward putter chip back 0:57:25.170 --> 0:57:26.510 up the green i've got a really good chance of 0:57:26.530 --> 0:57:28.990 making three you know if you need a two that's 0:57:29.010 --> 0:57:31.360 a different story altogether but um i i think if 0:57:31.380 --> 0:57:33.480 you want to talk strategy par threes it's just about 0:57:34.460 --> 0:57:36.180 where you miss it when you need to make a 0:57:36.200 --> 0:57:36.920 certain number. 0:57:37.880 --> 0:57:41.660 It makes me think of this yardage guide that the 0:57:41.740 --> 0:57:46.110 architect Mike Kaprowski made for Broom Sedge in South Carolina. 0:57:46.650 --> 0:57:51.010 Really cool kind of hand-drawn yardage guide that Mike made. 0:57:51.910 --> 0:57:56.570 But the funniest part of it is how he labeled 0:57:56.590 --> 0:58:01.630 the surrounds of each green, where some parts he would 0:58:01.670 --> 0:58:07.120 write good, Other parts he would write bad, other parts 0:58:07.220 --> 0:58:08.460 he would write horrible. 0:58:08.820 --> 0:58:08.960 Yeah. 0:58:10.180 --> 0:58:12.240 And so it's, it's kind of, but that's, it's such 0:58:12.260 --> 0:58:14.780 a great way to think about what the strategy of 0:58:14.940 --> 0:58:17.080 an approach shot or the strategy of a tee shot 0:58:17.140 --> 0:58:20.280 on a par three might be. You have your good, 0:58:20.320 --> 0:58:24.400 your bad and your horrible misses. And if the pin 0:58:24.460 --> 0:58:27.540 happens to be near a horrible miss, then this, then 0:58:27.580 --> 0:58:30.820 the risk reward question is how much do you go 0:58:30.860 --> 0:58:36.170 at that pin? And on a Redan, the pin is 0:58:36.190 --> 0:58:39.660 going to usually be in the back there, and that 0:58:39.720 --> 0:58:44.480 is an interesting strategic scenario, because where do you miss 0:58:44.560 --> 0:58:46.780 around there? You really don't want to be short, you 0:58:46.820 --> 0:58:49.060 really don't want to be long right, but long left 0:58:49.140 --> 0:58:49.860 is kind of okay. 0:58:50.880 --> 0:58:54.060 Yeah, I think it's the essence of a great par 3. 0:58:54.060 --> 0:58:56.300 If you have to attack it, it is gettable, but 0:58:56.500 --> 0:58:58.840 if you have to make a score, you can try 0:58:58.880 --> 0:59:01.380 and mitigate some risk. Yeah. 0:59:01.770 --> 0:59:04.360 Yeah, and if you can work those options out really 0:59:04.360 --> 0:59:06.770 clearly in the design of a short course par three, 0:59:06.810 --> 0:59:09.820 then you start to have something that's, that's pretty dynamic, 0:59:09.880 --> 0:59:14.100 you know, depending on, uh, on pin position. Um, so 0:59:14.240 --> 0:59:16.180 I want to, uh, uh, talk with you a little 0:59:16.220 --> 0:59:19.320 bit about just short courses that you've seen. What, what, 0:59:19.400 --> 0:59:23.620 what does a successful short course look like, uh, aside 0:59:23.660 --> 0:59:29.680 from the Do you have, are there short courses that 0:59:29.720 --> 0:59:33.730 come to mind for you as, as inspirations or, or 0:59:33.850 --> 0:59:36.110 ones that, that really stand out above the rest as, 0:59:36.710 --> 0:59:38.170 as kind of classics of the genre? 0:59:40.870 --> 0:59:43.070 So we obviously have to start with North Barrett kids course. 0:59:43.260 --> 0:59:44.720 I mean, which was originally. 0:59:45.280 --> 0:59:49.760 For people unfamiliar, kids course at North Barrett, like where 0:59:49.860 --> 0:59:50.840 is it? What is it like? 0:59:51.500 --> 0:59:54.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So nine hole course actually opened in 0:59:54.980 --> 0:59:58.180 the 1880s there, thereabouts. It was originally the ladies golf course. 0:59:59.400 --> 1:00:02.740 I think the ladies for maybe five or 10 years, 1:00:03.520 --> 1:00:05.580 you know, played there and then they were like, yeah, 1:00:05.800 --> 1:00:08.920 we're just going to play the big course. So, so yeah, 1:00:08.980 --> 1:00:12.960 it's been a dedicated kids course for over a hundred years. And, 1:00:13.020 --> 1:00:17.340 you know, it just like, it's, it has a remarkable 1:00:17.440 --> 1:00:22.480 variety and, and really stand out memorability on the golf holes. So, 1:00:22.500 --> 1:00:25.200 you know, you have a punch bowl green, you have 1:00:25.220 --> 1:00:27.820 an uphill hole, you have a downhill hole, you have 1:00:27.840 --> 1:00:30.580 a kind of Dell-style hole, you have a hole that 1:00:30.600 --> 1:00:35.840 just plays over a bunch of diagonal ripples. They're very, like, 1:00:36.360 --> 1:00:40.510 just memorable and easily identifiable golf holes for even, like, 1:00:40.550 --> 1:00:43.470 the most beginner of golfers, right? So I think North 1:00:43.490 --> 1:00:46.470 Berwick kids' course, and there's obviously stone walls and whatever, 1:00:46.670 --> 1:00:48.510 just cool kind of North Berwick contours out there. I mean, 1:00:48.530 --> 1:00:50.730 it's a great place to start, right? I think in 1:00:50.750 --> 1:00:52.970 the modern era, like the cradle to me is an 1:00:53.070 --> 1:01:02.460 iconic project. Um, and probably primarily just because Pinehurst Resort 1:01:02.580 --> 1:01:06.000 understood the importance of location. Um, like if you build 1:01:06.020 --> 1:01:08.120 the cradle off in like a little corner of the 1:01:08.140 --> 1:01:10.600 resort somewhere, this is different animal, right? 1:01:10.620 --> 1:01:11.180 That's so true. 1:01:11.240 --> 1:01:13.900 If you get, if you give that thing center stage, 1:01:14.160 --> 1:01:17.070 if you understand the fact that, you know, what you, 1:01:17.700 --> 1:01:19.280 what you want to do. So what, what used to, 1:01:19.420 --> 1:01:21.290 what did they used to have in front of, you know, 1:01:21.330 --> 1:01:24.270 the Pinehurst resort clubhouse there, I guess a driving range 1:01:24.330 --> 1:01:26.070 and maybe the first hole of course, one in the 1:01:26.110 --> 1:01:29.090 first of course, three, I can't remember exactly something like that. 1:01:29.530 --> 1:01:32.510 Either way, it's not very engaging. There's not a whole 1:01:32.530 --> 1:01:35.780 lot of action out there. The vibe is not great. Um, 1:01:36.060 --> 1:01:39.820 but if you move that stuff elsewhere, put in a 1:01:39.840 --> 1:01:42.460 killer short course, put in a bar, put in a Himalayas, 1:01:43.160 --> 1:01:45.470 all of a sudden, um, You just have this kind 1:01:45.510 --> 1:01:48.190 of focal point for golf activity, like right in front 1:01:48.230 --> 1:01:51.090 of the clubhouse with food and beverage right there. Um, 1:01:51.330 --> 1:01:55.010 you know, that's, that to me is just people and, 1:01:55.130 --> 1:01:56.490 you know, how much of that was Gail and how 1:01:56.530 --> 1:01:58.490 much was the resort? I don't know, but that is 1:01:58.890 --> 1:02:03.950 folks just understanding how short courses with all that kind 1:02:03.990 --> 1:02:06.680 of compactness and all those people together in this relatively 1:02:06.720 --> 1:02:10.860 small space creates like a really, a really good vibe. Yeah. 1:02:10.980 --> 1:02:14.850 It has totally changed the character of that place. And 1:02:14.930 --> 1:02:21.740 it reinforces this notion that architecture is in part placemaking, right? 1:02:21.800 --> 1:02:26.700 You can, through architecture, change what a place feels like. 1:02:27.520 --> 1:02:30.060 And the Cradle is the perfect example of that because 1:02:30.180 --> 1:02:33.480 of its location right there. All of a sudden, that 1:02:33.540 --> 1:02:36.550 whole area is such a fun place to be. And 1:02:36.590 --> 1:02:38.690 it was always a pretty fun place to be because, 1:02:38.790 --> 1:02:41.370 you know, you had the 18th Green at Pinehurst No. 1:02:41.370 --> 1:02:43.010 2 right there and the First Tee and you had 1:02:43.030 --> 1:02:45.260 the little patio and And all of that stuff has 1:02:45.280 --> 1:02:47.540 been in place for a while, but now you add 1:02:47.560 --> 1:02:50.919 in the cradle and it's just like a theme park there, 1:02:51.220 --> 1:02:54.860 you know, it's, it's really fun. And it's, there's so 1:02:54.900 --> 1:02:57.440 many people there and it, and you get that, you 1:02:57.480 --> 1:02:59.290 get that energy out of, out of that course. 1:02:59.330 --> 1:03:02.350 Right. Yeah. I know they had to, obviously had to 1:03:02.430 --> 1:03:04.650 move a lot of things around to make that happen. But, 1:03:05.170 --> 1:03:08.470 you know, I think, I don't think anyone would argue 1:03:08.490 --> 1:03:11.070 that that you know, the expense and the effort that 1:03:11.110 --> 1:03:13.160 they went to, to, to make the cradle work. Like 1:03:13.200 --> 1:03:16.520 that's completely justified. I mean, that is just such an incredible, 1:03:17.340 --> 1:03:20.140 incredible addition to the resort. And from what I understand, 1:03:20.180 --> 1:03:22.760 like the food and beverage out there is, you know, 1:03:22.780 --> 1:03:23.990 it does pretty well. Right. 1:03:24.750 --> 1:03:28.010 I would imagine. I would imagine that like makes a 1:03:28.030 --> 1:03:33.030 little money for, uh, for the resort. Um, recently you were, 1:03:33.210 --> 1:03:36.410 and you have, by the way, just gotten back to Japan. 1:03:36.490 --> 1:03:38.780 So I want to thank you publicly for, uh, for 1:03:38.820 --> 1:03:41.660 coming on the podcast so quickly after you've done so 1:03:41.740 --> 1:03:44.920 much travel, but you were, you were recently traveling a 1:03:45.340 --> 1:03:49.440 little bit around, uh, uh, around the States and you 1:03:49.480 --> 1:03:52.700 found yourself at one point at sand Valley. You, you've 1:03:52.740 --> 1:03:55.640 mentioned that, that you had gone to the commons. Uh, 1:03:55.910 --> 1:03:57.410 did you also play the sandbox while. 1:03:57.350 --> 1:04:00.500 You were there? I actually didn't this time, but I, 1:04:00.820 --> 1:04:03.830 because the, the, the half mile that we've been building, 1:04:03.890 --> 1:04:06.750 the project in Chicago is only like a two or 1:04:06.850 --> 1:04:08.790 two and a half, three hour drive from sand Valley. 1:04:08.810 --> 1:04:10.750 I've been up a bunch of this summer. So I 1:04:10.790 --> 1:04:13.250 was up there with Akbar from Seamus, uh, like a 1:04:13.310 --> 1:04:18.980 month ago. And, uh, yeah, we did some, we did, uh, some, some, uh, some, 1:04:19.100 --> 1:04:21.440 some short course funds, some, oh man, I'm blanking on 1:04:21.460 --> 1:04:24.500 the name right now. Uh, sandbox. We did a, we did, 1:04:24.540 --> 1:04:26.420 we did a couple of sandbox runs. Yeah. It's a 1:04:26.440 --> 1:04:28.830 fantastic place. Jimmy Craig did a beautiful job out there. 1:04:29.410 --> 1:04:32.970 And it's, it's, I think it's really interesting, like trying 1:04:32.990 --> 1:04:36.630 to get like the right amount of golf in that property. Right. 1:04:36.730 --> 1:04:43.940 And how, how defined the boundaries of that property were 1:04:43.980 --> 1:04:45.960 when Jimmy started. And I know, you know, Bill and 1:04:46.060 --> 1:04:47.520 Bill and Ben were obviously working on it with him 1:04:47.560 --> 1:04:53.840 as well. But, Yeah, just to create like the perfect 1:04:54.560 --> 1:04:57.600 amount of golf is quite a hard thing to do. 1:04:57.680 --> 1:05:00.900 And I think the, you know, the sandbox does it 1:05:00.940 --> 1:05:03.430 very well. It's obviously a neat little property and there's 1:05:03.550 --> 1:05:05.470 a lot of kind of twisting and turning and you 1:05:05.510 --> 1:05:08.150 kind of, it gets compressed and you get kind of 1:05:08.190 --> 1:05:09.990 back to the clubhouse and then it kind of opens 1:05:10.090 --> 1:05:12.370 up on the last few holes. You know, you've got 1:05:12.410 --> 1:05:14.169 your kind of long range views out into the rest 1:05:14.190 --> 1:05:17.930 of the property. You know, it's beautiful. I mean, everything, 1:05:18.510 --> 1:05:21.340 every technique that you employ to make you know, a 1:05:21.360 --> 1:05:24.840 full size golf course, like dramatic and memorable can also 1:05:24.880 --> 1:05:26.590 be deployed on a short course, right? I mean, they're 1:05:26.680 --> 1:05:30.010 none of the, like the, the, the writing lessons from 1:05:30.070 --> 1:05:33.850 full size golf can all be sort of adapted and, and, 1:05:34.450 --> 1:05:37.230 and kind of repurposed for, for short course golf experience. 1:05:37.250 --> 1:05:40.250 I mean, it should still be a story with a start, 1:05:40.310 --> 1:05:42.790 a middle and an end and, you know, cadence and 1:05:42.830 --> 1:05:45.910 high points and low points and all those good things. Yeah. 1:05:45.930 --> 1:05:48.780 That's such a good point about the sandbox. Cause I, I've, 1:05:49.530 --> 1:05:51.450 When I think of the best short course I've played, 1:05:51.470 --> 1:05:55.770 I think of The Sandbox. I like it even more 1:05:55.810 --> 1:05:59.380 than Bandon Preserve, which is the short course that maybe 1:05:59.410 --> 1:06:02.620 most people would say is the best they've played. And 1:06:03.180 --> 1:06:05.600 for good reason, like Bandon Preserve is in an absolutely 1:06:05.640 --> 1:06:08.240 spectacular location. It's on a piece of land that really 1:06:08.300 --> 1:06:12.020 couldn't have been used for anything else, but it's perfect 1:06:12.060 --> 1:06:16.620 for a short course. But what makes The Sandbox so 1:06:16.820 --> 1:06:19.630 impressive to me is what you're talking about, the kind 1:06:19.670 --> 1:06:24.450 of journey across the property. And that property was nothing, right? 1:06:24.910 --> 1:06:30.070 There was nothing there that was useful for a golf 1:06:30.110 --> 1:06:36.520 architect like Bill Kaur. But they created some really interesting topography. 1:06:37.340 --> 1:06:41.640 And then they created a routing that explores that topography 1:06:43.160 --> 1:06:45.080 in a way that feels like a Kaur and Crenshaw 1:06:45.120 --> 1:06:48.460 golf course. there's a sense of discovery as you go 1:06:48.540 --> 1:06:52.280 around through those little kind of humps and hollows. It's 1:06:52.320 --> 1:06:55.130 kind of roughly maybe a figure eight routing or kind 1:06:55.190 --> 1:06:59.610 of there, there's some looping that happens. And as you 1:06:59.650 --> 1:07:01.770 get to the latter parts of the golf course, you 1:07:01.810 --> 1:07:04.970 realize where you're going and there's sort of this realization, Oh, 1:07:05.010 --> 1:07:08.820 this is, this is how it works. And that's really pleasurable, right? 1:07:08.840 --> 1:07:11.520 When you figure out, Oh, this is, this is how 1:07:11.560 --> 1:07:15.120 they made this all work from, from beginning to end. 1:07:15.670 --> 1:07:17.510 So that's something that's so cool about it. And then 1:07:17.550 --> 1:07:22.320 the greens are just absolutely brilliant, like such cool greens, 1:07:22.480 --> 1:07:27.540 each one very memorable. It's an achievement to design that 1:07:27.600 --> 1:07:32.030 many greens and have each be instantly memorable. But yeah, 1:07:32.050 --> 1:07:35.030 the sandbox always comes to mind as a real achievement 1:07:35.090 --> 1:07:38.670 because you had a property that wasn't offering much in 1:07:38.730 --> 1:07:42.910 terms of terrain. but you created just enough terrain and 1:07:42.930 --> 1:07:46.190 then a routing through it that, yeah, it's like you're 1:07:46.210 --> 1:07:49.580 playing a miniature version of Sand Valley or something where 1:07:49.600 --> 1:07:52.160 you're discovering each piece of the course as you go 1:07:52.240 --> 1:07:55.560 along and it creates that excitement. I can't think of 1:07:55.580 --> 1:07:57.840 many short courses that do that, right? 1:07:58.860 --> 1:08:02.260 Yeah, it's really, really good. And I think to your 1:08:02.280 --> 1:08:04.450 other point with the recent addition of the commons, I 1:08:04.490 --> 1:08:07.390 think just having the ability to move from that kind 1:08:07.430 --> 1:08:11.920 of pure kind of par three style you know, short 1:08:11.960 --> 1:08:14.300 course experience to like the 12 holder that you can 1:08:14.320 --> 1:08:17.980 play in two hours. It's just like all these really 1:08:18.000 --> 1:08:24.150 kind of lovely packages, you know, like servings of golf 1:08:24.210 --> 1:08:27.150 that are just, you know, perfect for, you know, however 1:08:27.210 --> 1:08:30.630 you feel in a certain day, you know, certainly we 1:08:30.670 --> 1:08:33.269 had a, we had a crew up at Lido last 1:08:33.330 --> 1:08:36.230 week and you know, for our final morning before everyone 1:08:36.270 --> 1:08:38.189 took off, no brainer. Okay. We're all going to go 1:08:38.210 --> 1:08:42.410 out to the commons couple hours, Just, again, super fun greens. 1:08:42.470 --> 1:08:47.680 Another very fascinating routing, very dramatic features on the commons. 1:08:47.740 --> 1:08:52.300 It's a different animal to the sandbox for sure. But again, 1:08:52.380 --> 1:08:56.960 just a beautifully precise serving of golf for a bunch 1:08:56.960 --> 1:08:59.330 of people who are about to you know, drive a 1:08:59.350 --> 1:09:01.750 bunch of hours and hop on planes to get wherever. Right. 1:09:02.830 --> 1:09:08.599 Yeah. Well, the commons is a slightly different genre, of course, 1:09:08.680 --> 1:09:12.120 obviously still a short course. So, so very much within 1:09:12.140 --> 1:09:14.260 the realm of what we're talking about in this episode, 1:09:14.320 --> 1:09:19.200 but Michael Kaiser refers to the commons as an afternoon course. 1:09:20.110 --> 1:09:22.629 It has a mixture of par fours and par threes. 1:09:22.689 --> 1:09:26.150 It's 12 holes. It's a little more of an in-depth 1:09:26.220 --> 1:09:31.620 experience of golf, not quite as casual, but still a 1:09:31.700 --> 1:09:33.920 great thing to kind of tack on to the end 1:09:34.660 --> 1:09:37.920 of a long day, a very manageable golf experience. And 1:09:38.000 --> 1:09:43.500 Kaiser's inspiration in this, as well as Jim Craig's inspiration, 1:09:43.540 --> 1:09:47.590 et cetera, are these kind of second courses that a 1:09:47.650 --> 1:09:52.660 lot of clubs in england scotland and ireland have one 1:09:52.680 --> 1:09:55.620 that i just saw that sort of blew my mind 1:09:56.020 --> 1:09:59.160 and i wonder if you've been to it cruden bay 1:09:59.840 --> 1:10:05.099 the saint olaf course that place is amazing now i 1:10:05.430 --> 1:10:07.990 i was at cruden bay on a trip for friday 1:10:08.030 --> 1:10:10.650 golf club we're we're going around the highlands playing a 1:10:10.689 --> 1:10:13.650 bunch of different courses i did not plan to go 1:10:13.729 --> 1:10:17.670 to saint olaf until brian schneider told me that i 1:10:17.729 --> 1:10:21.990 needed to And so after I played the main championship 1:10:22.030 --> 1:10:26.309 course at Cruden Bay, I just walked around the nine 1:10:26.380 --> 1:10:30.860 hole St. Olaf course. It has five par fours and 1:10:30.920 --> 1:10:36.020 four par threes. And it is absolutely delightful. It uses 1:10:36.100 --> 1:10:38.600 sort of the leftover land for the most part, you know, 1:10:38.640 --> 1:10:41.679 kind of the most subtle land at Cruden Bay, whereas 1:10:41.720 --> 1:10:44.280 the championship course really goes into the big dunes and 1:10:44.560 --> 1:10:48.930 adheres to the big dunes. But That land in the 1:10:49.010 --> 1:10:53.710 middle of the valley that's less dramatic is still so interesting. 1:10:53.830 --> 1:10:57.590 It's just smaller contour, but it's really chaotic and fun. 1:10:58.110 --> 1:11:00.160 And then the course kind of wraps around and then 1:11:00.660 --> 1:11:03.820 visits the dunes for a couple of holes, uh, on 1:11:03.840 --> 1:11:07.120 the sixth and seventh holes. And then, and then comes 1:11:07.200 --> 1:11:12.050 back and the greens are Tom Simpson, Herbert Fowler greens. 1:11:12.270 --> 1:11:15.810 Like they're probably even better than the greens on the, 1:11:16.090 --> 1:11:19.400 on the main course. And I was just like, man, 1:11:19.439 --> 1:11:21.240 this would be a great thing to have as a 1:11:21.260 --> 1:11:24.360 club member. Like this is, this is where I would play. 1:11:25.020 --> 1:11:26.950 If I were coming home from a day at work, 1:11:27.370 --> 1:11:29.700 I wouldn't play the championship course. I mean, that's a, 1:11:29.729 --> 1:11:31.910 that's a heavy lift. It's a great golf course, but 1:11:32.550 --> 1:11:35.849 I need a day to do that. Come home after work. 1:11:36.090 --> 1:11:38.610 I can play St. Olaf for sure in like an 1:11:38.650 --> 1:11:41.509 hour and a half. And that, and that would be great. 1:11:41.570 --> 1:11:44.740 And that's a satisfying golf experience where I'm hitting some drivers, 1:11:44.780 --> 1:11:49.840 playing some strategic par fours, but, It's, it's a quick experience. 1:11:50.280 --> 1:11:51.080 So I was, I was. 1:11:51.020 --> 1:11:52.469 Blown away that by that place. I don't know if 1:11:52.479 --> 1:11:53.160 you've been there at all. 1:11:53.550 --> 1:11:55.670 Yeah, it's super cool. And you know, there's examples like 1:11:55.729 --> 1:12:00.190 that all across the UK really. It's almost like you 1:12:00.210 --> 1:12:02.470 have the championship course over here and the holiday course 1:12:02.510 --> 1:12:04.170 over there or whatever the term for it is, but 1:12:04.189 --> 1:12:08.910 holiday course was used like fairly used quite a lot. Um, yeah, they're, 1:12:08.990 --> 1:12:11.080 they're amazing. And, uh, I think a lot of that 1:12:11.140 --> 1:12:13.320 is just leaning into the fact that it's light. So 1:12:13.360 --> 1:12:15.979 late in Scotland and you know, there's a culture of 1:12:16.020 --> 1:12:19.979 playing golf like after work. Right. So, um, yeah, I 1:12:20.030 --> 1:12:23.580 think being able to head out there almost like after dinner, 1:12:23.620 --> 1:12:26.140 it was almost like an after dinner golf course in Scotland. Right. 1:12:26.180 --> 1:12:28.980 I mean, you might be heading out there like 7 PM. Yeah. 1:12:29.080 --> 1:12:32.230 When sunset is like 10, 30 or 11, you know, 1:12:32.770 --> 1:12:35.010 that's kind of like when you, you can, you can 1:12:35.050 --> 1:12:36.920 do it. That's a summer, a summer treat sort of, 1:12:36.950 --> 1:12:37.230 I guess. 1:12:37.770 --> 1:12:40.210 Yeah. So, I mean, I would imagine that that played 1:12:40.229 --> 1:12:42.370 a big part in the, in the original development of 1:12:42.430 --> 1:12:46.360 those facilities in Scotland, uh, Scotland and England. Um, yeah. 1:12:46.600 --> 1:12:49.460 A hundred percent. I mean, like just people want to 1:12:49.500 --> 1:12:51.400 play golf. You just give them something that kind of 1:12:51.470 --> 1:12:54.310 fits their lifestyle and the time they have available and 1:12:54.630 --> 1:12:57.330 it's going to be popular. Yeah. Yeah. 1:12:57.570 --> 1:13:00.150 And one last thing I want to mention about, about 1:13:00.189 --> 1:13:03.309 short courses and, and the good ones that I've seen, 1:13:04.430 --> 1:13:07.320 not many people have been out to Sylvie's Valley Ranch 1:13:07.780 --> 1:13:12.060 in Eastern Oregon. I'm assuming you haven't been out there before. 1:13:12.080 --> 1:13:15.660 I have not. I'm familiar with it. I have not. Yeah. Fascinating. 1:13:16.240 --> 1:13:19.040 Dan Hickson designed golf courses out there. He did a 1:13:19.100 --> 1:13:21.460 reversible course. That's, that's really cool. That's kind of the 1:13:21.520 --> 1:13:25.840 main course at Sylvie's Valley ranch. But the craziest one 1:13:26.060 --> 1:13:29.700 is this little short course called McVeigh's gauntlet. And it's 1:13:29.920 --> 1:13:33.760 on the most severe piece of land that I've ever 1:13:33.880 --> 1:13:39.150 seen adapted to golf. Like it is a hike you, 1:13:39.360 --> 1:13:42.689 but it's, and it's walking only, but, but you really 1:13:42.750 --> 1:13:46.950 need to hike up some mountains, but, It's so cool 1:13:46.979 --> 1:13:49.560 because you could not have put a normal golf course there. 1:13:49.580 --> 1:13:52.620 You could not have laid out regulation golf holes on 1:13:52.660 --> 1:13:56.240 this terrain. But you can create a few small greens 1:13:56.600 --> 1:14:00.730 on the peaks of these choppy hills that the golf 1:14:00.770 --> 1:14:04.530 course occupies. And it's incredible that you can play golf 1:14:04.570 --> 1:14:09.550 across this landscape. It's really a unique experience. And as 1:14:09.670 --> 1:14:11.930 I was playing that course, I thought to myself, well, 1:14:13.130 --> 1:14:15.150 This is what short courses can do. It can give 1:14:15.189 --> 1:14:19.290 you access to landscapes that might not normally be accessible. 1:14:19.450 --> 1:14:22.870 And I think band and preserve fits that category as well. 1:14:22.890 --> 1:14:25.030 And so that, that is also something I feel that 1:14:25.050 --> 1:14:27.630 it's exciting about short courses. You can, you can find 1:14:27.670 --> 1:14:28.690 these little pieces of land. 1:14:29.710 --> 1:14:32.690 It's probably the, the, I think it's the little bad nine. 1:14:33.140 --> 1:14:34.740 That Scottsdale national as well is going. 1:14:34.660 --> 1:14:35.719 To be the bad little nine. 1:14:35.920 --> 1:14:38.460 Yeah. Jackson nine. There you go. There you go. There 1:14:38.479 --> 1:14:38.700 you go. 1:14:38.740 --> 1:14:39.139 Crazy. 1:14:39.160 --> 1:14:42.140 I mean, just there's just wild little pieces of property that, 1:14:42.200 --> 1:14:44.839 as you say, just unsuitable for full size golf, because 1:14:45.140 --> 1:14:48.040 you know, too many variables in full size golf. So 1:14:48.080 --> 1:14:50.580 you eliminate some of those things. You have people playing 1:14:50.620 --> 1:14:53.230 from reduced set of angles. Yeah. You can, you can 1:14:53.270 --> 1:14:55.950 make use of some very, very funky land that otherwise 1:14:56.030 --> 1:14:57.830 is just sadly going to be sitting over there and 1:14:57.870 --> 1:14:58.790 not part of your golf course. 1:14:59.490 --> 1:15:03.140 And it kind of fits with minimalist principles because If 1:15:03.200 --> 1:15:06.519 you were to put a regulation golf course or try 1:15:06.560 --> 1:15:09.420 to put one on the land of McVeigh's Gauntlet at 1:15:09.840 --> 1:15:13.660 Sylvie's Valley Ranch, you'd have to knock down a lot 1:15:13.680 --> 1:15:18.700 of topography. You'd have to really carve out the golf features. 1:15:19.140 --> 1:15:21.300 And that would be a bummer because you'd be disrupting 1:15:21.340 --> 1:15:25.439 this very cool piece of land. So instead, you put 1:15:25.460 --> 1:15:27.400 a short course on there. You can keep the land 1:15:27.880 --> 1:15:31.610 intact and still play golf on it. And again, this 1:15:31.670 --> 1:15:34.570 is exactly, it was exactly the logic behind band and preserve. 1:15:34.590 --> 1:15:36.410 And it's why people like that golf course so much. 1:15:36.430 --> 1:15:38.950 You're gaining access to a piece of land that, that 1:15:38.970 --> 1:15:39.950 you wouldn't normally otherwise. 1:15:40.750 --> 1:15:43.990 The same. There's the Mulligan course at Ballyneal as well. 1:15:44.030 --> 1:15:46.830 I forget what exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Same thing again, just 1:15:46.870 --> 1:15:49.330 a really gnarly little piece of property. You're not going 1:15:49.350 --> 1:15:51.070 to get any full size golf holes in there, but 1:15:51.610 --> 1:15:53.930 I mean, that is a fun short course. Yeah. 1:15:54.470 --> 1:15:57.050 Very fun. Very fun. I had forgotten that one. That's a, 1:15:57.310 --> 1:16:01.240 but yeah, that's, that's absolutely a good, a good pick too. Okay, 1:16:01.320 --> 1:16:04.820 I think we've probably done enough remembering some golf courses. 1:16:04.900 --> 1:16:09.820 Like remembering some guys who used to play baseball in 1:16:09.850 --> 1:16:12.689 the 1990s. We've done a little bit of that. But 1:16:12.710 --> 1:16:15.910 that was very interesting. Thank you so much for coming 1:16:15.950 --> 1:16:20.050 on the podcast, Benjamin. Appreciate it. And good luck with 1:16:20.150 --> 1:16:22.970 the project at Half Mile. I hope it turns out well. 1:16:24.270 --> 1:16:25.920 Thank you, Garrett. Great to be on the pod. Thanks 1:16:25.939 --> 1:16:28.880 for the invitation. And yeah, good stuff. Good to talk 1:16:28.920 --> 1:16:29.900 about short courses. Thank you. 1:16:30.490 --> 1:16:41.680 Absolutely. This episode of designing golf was produced by Will Balsam. 1:16:42.040 --> 1:16:45.800 Thank you, Will. If you've been enjoying the podcast, then 1:16:45.979 --> 1:16:49.720 go to Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you might 1:16:49.740 --> 1:16:52.840 be listening to us and leave a rating and review. 1:16:53.080 --> 1:16:55.960 We do like hearing from listeners. If you have ideas 1:16:56.000 --> 1:16:59.160 for future episodes, I always take note of those. So 1:16:59.189 --> 1:17:01.450 let me know what you're thinking. Thank you for listening, 1:17:01.870 --> 1:17:04.790 and we'll be back again soon with another episode.