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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A gorgeous young mom just

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Speaker 1: thirty three, goes on a cross country trip. How do

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Speaker 1: you just disappear? Vanish into thin air? Her family keeping

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Speaker 1: up with her as she goes. But now the big

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Speaker 1: big question, where is Katie? But right now we have

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Speaker 1: a major clue. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: and on series XM one eleven. First of all, take

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Speaker 1: a listen to this.

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Speaker 2: During the drive, Adam Availis, Katie Ferguson, and their girls

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Speaker 2: draw the attention of Arkansas police. A slight drizzle trickles

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Speaker 2: as the family sit in a parking lot at eleven am.

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Speaker 2: A Truman, Arkansas police officer startles Katie as he approaches

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Speaker 2: the car. Katie can be seen in the body cam

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Speaker 2: footage folding baby clothes. A toddler climbs in the front

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Speaker 2: seat area between her parents. The officer asks how they

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Speaker 2: are doing. Katie Ferguson tells the officer they are a

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Speaker 2: bit tired. But when the officer asks to see some id,

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Speaker 2: Katie says hers isn't a bag in the back. Adam

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Speaker 2: Aveila starts asking questions did someone call the police on them?

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Speaker 2: Is Arkansas and ID state? Avellis bristles at being asked

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Speaker 2: for ID. He tells the officer they aren't doing anything wrong.

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Speaker 1: And here comes the clue, just before Katie seemingly vanishes.

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Speaker 1: And remember that the cop approaches them not because they

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Speaker 1: did anything wrong, but because he sees the car part

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Speaker 1: with the door open. So he walks over and there

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Speaker 1: is Katie perfectly fine, the baby in the car, folding

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Speaker 1: up baby clothes, and he's asking, Hey, what's going on?

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Speaker 1: Why is your door open? And we have the bodycam footage.

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Speaker 1: We can see her, we can hear her. I want

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Speaker 1: you to see it and hear it with me. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen.

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Speaker 3: How you guys doing.

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Speaker 4: Okay, you guys up to you.

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Speaker 3: Say it again?

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Speaker 2: Lean up and head over to Joe and Burl.

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Speaker 4: Okay, well, I was just seeing the door open and

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Speaker 4: looked suspicious, so I had to come check it out.

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Speaker 4: So you guys at a wyoming Yeah, we're going.

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Speaker 1: You want back?

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Speaker 4: Do you guys have an idea or anything?

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Speaker 3: Dark?

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Speaker 1: Dark? Yeah. I can't tell you how many times when

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Speaker 1: I was in the District Attorney's office, I'll be riding

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Speaker 1: along to find a witness or whatever, and a cop

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Speaker 1: will ask somebody for I D. And the first thing

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Speaker 1: they say is why they don't just get out of

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Speaker 1: the ID and show. And they always say why. And

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Speaker 1: of course in America you can do that. You know,

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Speaker 1: you go to Russia or China, we'll get clubbed. But

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Speaker 1: here you say, why do you want my ID? And

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Speaker 1: that's what he did. But as you can hear the

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Speaker 1: children in the car playing, everything's fine. She's sitting in

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Speaker 1: the front seat folding baby clothes. We see her, we

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Speaker 1: hear her all as well. Listen to this.

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Speaker 5: Say it again, Arkansas, I state, is it an?

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Speaker 1: I just need to verify you.

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Speaker 6: I don't think you're going.

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Speaker 3: Okay. That's why I think.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean it is a suspicious vehicle in the

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Speaker 4: parking lot, so or you go through. I was driving

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Speaker 4: right here and I see you guys.

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Speaker 3: So we have a one because's not if Arkansas isn't

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Speaker 3: a monch?

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Speaker 7: Do do you have your idea on you?

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Speaker 3: I know your in law? What's your name? Katherine?

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Speaker 4: Katherine, Catherine person Ferguson at a Wyoming.

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Speaker 1: Well, he's right, this is her boyfriend talking. He's right

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Speaker 1: joining me. Is Katie's mother? Amona Hartling and her brother

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Speaker 1: who contacted us on Facebook about his missing sister, Alan Ferguson.

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Speaker 1: But first of James shell Nutt, high profile lawyer out

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Speaker 1: of Alabama twenty seven years metro major case including SWAT

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Speaker 1: now the lead at the shell nut Law firm, James

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Speaker 1: shell Nutt. Now remember we're not in l one krim law.

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Speaker 1: Just give me a yes. Note. Under the usv. Terry,

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Speaker 1: cops can stop and ask for ID if they see

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Speaker 1: anything suspicious. And I'm telling you what, if they didn't

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Speaker 1: ask for ID, we'd all be three inches up their

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Speaker 1: tailpipe right now. Because you've got two children in the car.

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Speaker 1: You've got a guy who doesn't want to show you

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Speaker 1: his ID. You've got a woman who says, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: in the back in one of those bags. The cop

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Speaker 1: is not going to go through the diaper bag looking

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Speaker 1: for the ID. But when you have children in the car,

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Speaker 1: you have to find out why are you pulled over?

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Speaker 1: Who are these children? Are they your children? What's happening?

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Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with what the cop did.

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Speaker 5: There's absolutely nothing wrong with what he did.

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Speaker 8: They did exactly what he.

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Speaker 4: Was supposed to do.

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Speaker 5: He was investigating a suspicious situation, and he did exactly what.

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Speaker 7: Protocol is probably followed. His policy followed the law.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely nothing wrong with that, guys.

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Speaker 1: We've got more body cam footage and it's not relevant

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Speaker 1: really about their ID or why they were had the

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Speaker 1: door open. They obviously were taking a breather from driving

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Speaker 1: and folding clothes and getting the children situated. What I'm

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Speaker 1: looking at is her her, That's all I care about her, Katie.

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Speaker 1: What is her demeanor? Does she look like she's in

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Speaker 1: any danger? Is there some problem? Uh, We've got one

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Speaker 1: more little bit of body kim let's look at it.

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Speaker 1: At a hotel.

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Speaker 4: So you guys been here in German just one night,

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Speaker 4: just passing through?

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 7: An officer came to the doll. What do you guys

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Speaker 7: doing over in this area?

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Speaker 4: I'm like tramplin this way you guys, family or.

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Speaker 3: Alabama. I went with my family and then he came up,

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Speaker 3: where's your family? And Jones?

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Speaker 1: Girl?

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, it's all the way like way

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Speaker 4: down like towards Florida and stuff. And I took the

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Speaker 4: girls for a while and we separated for a while,

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Speaker 4: and then we came back together.

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Speaker 3: So he drove down to see me and we say

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Speaker 3: just get back together. And the girl so, yeah, this

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Speaker 3: is just away from Cody.

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Speaker 1: Wah o, Ben, I know, I don't worry all all right?

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Speaker 1: All right? A cop says all right and walks away.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I heard one thing. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you could hear it, but I have the transcription

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Speaker 1: so it's easier for me to hear it. And I

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Speaker 1: would always do that with jury's Whenever there's anything they're

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Speaker 1: supposed to hear, like a tape recording, and there's not

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Speaker 1: an audio visual or they can't see it, I always

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Speaker 1: do a transcription so they can read it as they're

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Speaker 1: hearing it. The cop says exactly, The boyfriend says it's

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Speaker 1: away from Cody, and Katie Ferguson says, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to be here. I find that really interesting, Okay, joining me,

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Speaker 1: Mona Hertling. This is Katie's mud who has led in

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Speaker 1: a sane, desperate search to find her daughter. Alan Ferguson

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Speaker 1: is her brother who first alerted us to her disappearance.

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Speaker 1: Miss Hartling, thank you for being with us. Did you

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Speaker 1: know that your daughter was going on this trip with

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Speaker 1: the boyfriend and the children. Did you know they were

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Speaker 1: heading across country I did. Why did they decide to

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Speaker 1: take the trip.

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Speaker 3: It's the cycle of abuse. We came down here to

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Speaker 3: start afresh, meet and the babies and Katie to get

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Speaker 3: away from Adam. We were in a safehouse in Powell, Wyoming,

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Speaker 3: which is next to Cody. Once we left the safe house,

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Speaker 3: we saw him everywhere we went in Cody, Wyoming. So

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Speaker 3: we started fresh down here in Alabama. We were down

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Speaker 3: here a few months and just the cycle of abuse

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Speaker 3: is why I believe she reached out to Adam and

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Speaker 3: a three year old at the time. She was three,

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Speaker 3: wanted to talk to daddy.

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Speaker 1: Got it. Wanted Daddy, I understand joining me an all

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Speaker 1: Star panel in addition to Katie's mother and brother, Alan Ferguson,

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Speaker 1: Katie's brother. When did she first realize Katie was missing?

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Speaker 7: You know, we hadn't talked in about maybe a month

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Speaker 7: or so, and my mom had called me basically saying,

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Speaker 7: you know, I'm worried about your sister. We haven't heard

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Speaker 7: from her, I continued, So I got on Instagram and

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Speaker 7: Snapchat and that's how we normally talk, and so I

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Speaker 7: kept messaging her over and over and over, message her

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Speaker 7: on Facebook and tried to call her a thousand times

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Speaker 7: and nothing happened. And eventually I was getting off work

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Speaker 7: and I got a text from my mom that said

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Speaker 7: I had to report Katie missing. And for some reason

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Speaker 7: in my gut, right then, I just knew because Adam

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Speaker 7: when I was over in back in Wyoming Adam and

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Speaker 7: Katie's house. I have been privy to plenty of times

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Speaker 7: where Adam had been screaming at Katie, and you know,

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Speaker 7: he's told her many of times that, you know, he

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Speaker 7: wanted to dispose of her and take the kids. And

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Speaker 7: I would be there to stand up for and my

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Speaker 7: mom would be there and it was just a cycle

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Speaker 7: of the same thing over and over and I would

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Speaker 7: tell her to leave. But during that moment when my

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Speaker 7: mom texted me that, I just knew deep down that

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Speaker 7: something was seriously wrong.

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Speaker 1: Hold on just a second. I want to circle back

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Speaker 1: to that moment when the cop approached their car in

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Speaker 1: Arkansas and Truman, Arkansas, when he saw that car door open.

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Speaker 1: We see her, we hear her, and everything is seemingly fine.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace joining me right now, a

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Speaker 1: longtime colleague and who I consider a friend. Chris Adams

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Speaker 1: also known as the Turtleman. He is a survival expert,

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Speaker 1: and I believe this guy. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: I took the twins, my children down to see the Okefinoke,

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest swamps in the world, and Chris Adams,

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Speaker 1: I trusted him, and I got on the boat with

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Speaker 1: him and the children and we went through this swamp

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Speaker 1: and we hadn't been out there five minutes before we

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Speaker 1: saw forty gators coming up from the water. That's how

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Speaker 1: much I believe in this guy. Chris Adams aka Turtleman

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Speaker 1: on Facebook, Wiregrass Ecological and Cultural Project on TikTok At, Georgia. Turtleman, Chris,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us this terrain. You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this has ever happened to you,

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Speaker 1: but I've had it happen with plenty, plenty of people.

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Speaker 1: I can't even count them. They're in a car with

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Speaker 1: their loved one and they get into an argument and

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Speaker 1: children although they've changed my world. As I've told you, Chris,

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Speaker 1: you put the children in the car, you're on a

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Speaker 1: long trip. They're crying, they're playing, they're hungry. You get

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Speaker 1: into a fight with the spouse or the partner and

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Speaker 1: things escalate very often, somebody gets out and storms off.

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Speaker 1: It happens. Did it happen here? Maybe it started that way.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that. I've got a lot of theories

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Speaker 1: on what happened, but I want to talk about the terrain.

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Speaker 1: Was she pushed out of the car, was she forced

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Speaker 1: out of the car? Did she get out of the

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Speaker 1: car there? How could anyone survive at that time November

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Speaker 1: in those conditions? What can you tell me? Would you

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Speaker 1: have to be an expert like you or could a

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Speaker 1: regular civilian go out and live?

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Speaker 6: I think it all depends on the scenario itself and

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Speaker 6: where they actually got out of the car. We know

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Speaker 6: that she was last thing in Truman, Arkansas. But going

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Speaker 6: from there I believe I heard mentioned possibly to Texarkana.

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Speaker 1: They were going that way.

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Speaker 6: Yes, very really tempary, and of course you've got pine bearings,

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Speaker 6: You've got large stands of oak and oak savannah, grassland areas, hilly, rocky,

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Speaker 6: and there are rivers and creeks that go through there.

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Speaker 6: As with any environment, one has to be careful where

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Speaker 6: they actually walk through to avoid stepping in a hole,

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Speaker 6: twisting an ankle something like that. And depending on the terrain,

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Speaker 6: whether it's easy or hard to navigate, will determine whether

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Speaker 6: a person can survive their long term. And being that

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Speaker 6: they were off of a major highway at some point

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Speaker 6: or by way, normally you would be near some sort

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Speaker 6: of civilization, people living there, housing, community farms. So it's

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Speaker 6: not like we just think that she's out there in

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Speaker 6: a wilderness area. Perhaps I don't think there's enough information

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Speaker 6: circulating around for me to determine that myself.

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Speaker 1: I agree, But certainly between Truman, Arkansas and takes her Kenna,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of wide open space.

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Speaker 8: Oh absolutely, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Now it's not the swamp, of course, but the terrain

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Speaker 1: you were describing. That's what I'm thinking about. Because best

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Speaker 1: case scenario right now, she stopped by the car. Do

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Speaker 1: I think that happened? Probably not, because she would not

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Speaker 1: leave those children. If she left, she'd take them with her,

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Speaker 1: unless she got into an argument, likely started by him,

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Speaker 1: but got into an argument and she got out of

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Speaker 1: the car and he takes off before she could get

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Speaker 1: the children, or they get an argument, he puts her

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Speaker 1: out of the car, or hits her. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: There's a million ways this could have gone down. Was

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Speaker 1: she injured when she got out of the car. Was

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Speaker 1: she dumped somewhere? But how long could he survive? She

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Speaker 1: hasn't turned up in anybody's home. Average Champs, Arkansas high

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Speaker 1: forties to seventies. Could she have survived? There's been no

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Speaker 1: report of her approaching someone's home, hospital, shelter, nothing, So

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Speaker 1: for all I know, she's in the wilderness. I don't

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Speaker 1: know where she is. She could be down a ravenge,

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Speaker 1: she could be anywhere. How could she live?

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Speaker 6: Chris Adams, Well, this goes back to several cases I've

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Speaker 6: been on you with now and I always this may

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Speaker 6: sound like my go to line, but hypothermia is always

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Speaker 6: a real rich. It doesn't matter if it's eighty degrees

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Speaker 6: outside or if it dips down into just above freezing temperatures.

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Speaker 6: If the body has moisture on it, if the air

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Speaker 6: has moisture in it and temperatures drop or your body

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Speaker 6: temperature drops, one can suffer from hypothermia. And as far

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Speaker 6: as foraging foods and things, most of the woodland trees

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Speaker 6: or have dropped their masks this time of year. There's

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Speaker 6: no acorns, there's nothing you can forage like that, And

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Speaker 6: most people who don't have that experience don't know to

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Speaker 6: look for those things. And that's just the reality of

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Speaker 6: the situation here.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at her in the car the last time

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Speaker 1: she was seen a lot, and she's got on shorts

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Speaker 1: and a T shirt.

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Speaker 6: Not conducive for this type of terrain at all.

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Speaker 1: And I think she's got on socks, socks, shorts and

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Speaker 1: a T shirt. And like you know, everybody that's got

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Speaker 1: children in the car, the car is a jumble. Nobody

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Speaker 1: knows where anything is. It's a big confusion. They're in

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Speaker 1: the back seat, playing and crying and trying to get

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Speaker 1: into the front seat, like everybody's car when you have

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Speaker 1: children in the back seat. I'm just trying to figure out,

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Speaker 1: Chris Adams, how she could make it again to Mota Heartling.

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Speaker 1: This is Katie Catherine Ferguson aka Katie's mother. When was

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Speaker 1: the last time you actually spoke to her verbally?

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Speaker 3: It was like the fifth, sixth of September.

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Speaker 1: We know that Katie is alive and well. October five,

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Speaker 1: October five, they're in Truman, Arkansas. We see her, she's fine,

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Speaker 1: she's speaking to cops. How did we get here? How

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Speaker 1: are these two who obviously have a very volatile relationship.

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Speaker 1: How are they in the car with children going across country?

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut four.

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Speaker 2: For eight years, Katie Ferguson and Adam Avelas had an

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Speaker 2: on again, off again relationship living in Wyomi. This year,

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Speaker 2: two daughters, both under five years old, Katie and Adam separate.

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Speaker 2: Adam stays in Cody, Wyoming. Katie and the girls move

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Speaker 2: in with Ferguson's mother, Mana Hartling and Dothan, Alabama. After

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Speaker 2: spending the summer with her mother, Katie Ferguson wants the

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Speaker 2: girls to have time with her dad. Katie Ferguson tells

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Speaker 2: her family Adam has really grown up. During their four

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Speaker 2: month separation, Adam starts the round trip drive from Wyomi

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Speaker 2: to pick up Katie.

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Speaker 1: And the girls. That is how these two end up

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Speaker 1: in the car together. He Adam Avilis, decides to go

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Speaker 1: at her request to get Katie and the girls, and

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Speaker 1: he starts to round trip drive from Wyoming to pick

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Speaker 1: them up. That is how they end up in the

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Speaker 1: car together. It's eerily reminiscent of another case. I thank

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Speaker 1: you all are familiar with the case of Gabby Bettito.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut twenty one.

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Speaker 9: Let's going all right, good, Hey, we got a call

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Speaker 9: about a male hitting a female and the two of

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Speaker 9: them getting this vehicle and take it off, all right.

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Speaker 1: I just I don't want to trying to find myself

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Speaker 1: by saying here.

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Speaker 3: But I pushed her away, so she gets really worked up,

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Speaker 3: and when she does, she swings and shut herself on

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Speaker 3: her hand.

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Speaker 7: So I was just trying to make her away.

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Speaker 3: But talking about gus.

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Speaker 1: Ah and more and twenty four, I wanted to.

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Speaker 9: Exc yeah, is there something on your cheek here? Looks

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Speaker 9: like did you get did you get hit in the face?

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Speaker 9: Kind of looks like something like hitting you in the face?

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Speaker 3: All right?

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Speaker 9: Then over on your arm, your shoulder right here, there's

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Speaker 9: that's new on have a new mark?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 9: I see the other side of your face.

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Speaker 6: So what happened here? And here?

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure this is.

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Speaker 1: Trying to get her back on the car.

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Speaker 9: So the backpack gotcha.

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Speaker 1: I just wonder if that Truman, Arkansas cop suspected abuse.

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Speaker 1: He spoke to both of them. He looked in the car,

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Speaker 1: He asked for ID, He asked her, is everything okay?

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Speaker 1: What's happening where you're from? Where you're going, But there

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Speaker 1: was nothing he could hang his hat on. And Gabby

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Speaker 1: Petito there was two witnesses had seen Brian Laundry beating

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Speaker 1: her in the face. You heard earlier our friend Chris

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Speaker 1: Adams Turtleman talking about other cases we've worked on together.

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Speaker 1: That's one of them. He was seen beating her in

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Speaker 1: the face. Yet they told him he had done nothing wrong.

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Speaker 1: Within ours Gabby was dead. Did this cop and Truman,

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Speaker 1: Arkansas have a sixth sense? You'll see what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Takeolis nowur cuts seven crime online Rachel Wania.

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Speaker 2: Four days after the police encounter in Truman, Arkansas, the

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Speaker 2: Dodge Durango with Adam of Valis behind the wheel is

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Speaker 2: captured by a Texas DPS patrol camera. Two things are

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Speaker 2: noticeably different from the previous police encounter. Kati Ferguson is

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Speaker 2: not in the vehicle, and there's a projectile hole in

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Speaker 2: the front passenger side door concealed with tape. Bodycam footage

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Speaker 2: from Arkansas clearly shows there is no hole in the

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Speaker 2: passenger's side door. The front passenger seat of the car

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Speaker 2: has a pile of clothes on it. Two days later,

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Speaker 2: Avellis is stopped again, this time by Colorado State Police.

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Speaker 2: And just as in Texas, Adam of Vealis and the

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Speaker 2: two girls are present, but Katie Ferguson is missing.

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Speaker 1: Back to you, Chris Adams, it reminds me so much

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Speaker 1: of the Gabby Potato case. Remember Brian Laundry crosses the

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Speaker 1: country in Gabby's vehicle using her credit card and her

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Speaker 1: cell phone. I gets all the way back to Florida

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Speaker 1: to his mommy's house and then they go on a

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Speaker 1: camping trip with mommy, daddy, and sister. Or what nobody

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Speaker 1: knows is Gabby's not there. Everything's there, but Gabby. Is

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Speaker 1: that ringing a bell? Chris Adams. Remember when we just

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Speaker 1: went through the whole thing with Gabby.

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Speaker 6: The answers we need aren't coming forth. And what we

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Speaker 6: assume is that she went missing somewhere between Truman, Arkansas

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Speaker 6: and somewhere near the Texas line.

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Speaker 1: So my question to you between Truman, Arkansas and the

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Speaker 1: Texas line, what's the terrain.

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Speaker 6: The terrain, like I said, is very hilly. But what

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Speaker 6: I just was thinking about deer season is in in

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Speaker 6: the southern Arkansas's homes there are plenty of outdoorsmen out

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Speaker 6: of the woods. Any sign of something different. Any person

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Speaker 6: walking through the woods in those places near those major

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Speaker 6: highways would be on some sort of betrayal camera. There

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Speaker 6: will be some evidence left behind. There are thousands of

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Speaker 6: people in the woods right now in Arkansas, Texas, Oklahoma,

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Speaker 6: whole area. There's something amiss would be spotted very quickly.

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Speaker 1: I think you're right about that. Chris Adams Nicole parton

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Speaker 1: joining me Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Nicole, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. I got to make sense

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Speaker 1: of what I have just heard, what Chris has told me,

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Speaker 1: but also what Rachel Bania is reporting. Four days after

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Speaker 1: the police encounter in Truman, Arkansas, Adam's Dodge Durango is

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Speaker 1: captured by the Texas Patrol camera. Two things very different. Now,

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Speaker 1: that could be a toll booth. That could be a

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Speaker 1: red light cam. It could be any number of cameras.

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Speaker 1: Two things very different. Number One, Katie is not in

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Speaker 1: the vehicle. The bodycam footage in Arkansas shows a very

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Speaker 1: different scenario. The front passenger seat has a pile of

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Speaker 1: clothes on it. The next time he's stopped in Colorado,

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Speaker 1: just like Texas, Adam, Avelis and the two girls are present,

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Speaker 1: but no Katie. So she's not present in Texas on cam,

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Speaker 1: she's not present in Colorado. So somewhere between Truman, Arkansas

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Speaker 1: and Texas she goes missing. Also important, what am I

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Speaker 1: hearing Nicole parton about a projectile hole in the front

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Speaker 1: passenger door concealed with tape?

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Speaker 5: Right, So we know in that October footage you've seen it,

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Speaker 5: I've seen it. There's no hole in the door. We

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Speaker 5: can see the door. And then the next time we

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Speaker 5: have any footage whatsoever, we can see there's a hole

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Speaker 5: in the passenger door and it's taped up.

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Speaker 3: Now we're being.

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Speaker 7: Told, so here's a hole.

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Speaker 5: Someone trying to conceal the hole and tape it up.

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Speaker 5: And then we also interesting, there's a large heap of

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Speaker 5: clothing covering the passenger seat. So now we know there's clothing,

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Speaker 5: we see that in the first footage, but now the

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Speaker 5: whole seat is piled high a heap, a pile of

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Speaker 5: clothing in that passenger seat. Is that to hide something

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Speaker 5: in the seat?

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't know how many children do you have

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Speaker 1: in Okay, there's any number of reason that all the

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Speaker 1: children's clothes are piled in the front seat. Oh true,

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Speaker 1: If you look to my mini van. Right now, you

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Speaker 1: would see the entire front passenger floor is full of

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Speaker 1: children's clothing. But there's more. I want you to hear this,

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Speaker 1: and this is knocking me off my feet. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen again to Rachel Bonia.

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Speaker 2: Adam Avelas and his two daughters arrive in Wyoming. They

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Speaker 2: move into his father's house. He has his two girls,

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Speaker 2: but Katie Ferguson is not with them. After several days

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Speaker 2: of not hearing from Katie, her mother calls the Parks

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Speaker 2: County Sheriff Office in Wyoming and reports her daughter missing.

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Speaker 2: The last known time Ferguson was seen was October fifth

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Speaker 2: in Arkansas. That was the same day the couple was

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Speaker 2: approached in the parking lot by police.

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Speaker 1: The mona Heartling. This is Katie's mother and Alan Ferguson,

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Speaker 1: her brother, who is beside. They're both beside themselves. In

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Speaker 1: contacted me on Facebook. Tell me what led you to

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Speaker 1: call police? What happened that made you contact them and

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Speaker 1: report her missing? I mean he shows up, he moves

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Speaker 1: into his dad's house with the children without her. Nobody

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Speaker 1: noticed she was gone.

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Speaker 3: No nobody, He didn't tell anybody that she was missing.

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Speaker 3: He didn't contact the police. He didn't contact both her

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Speaker 3: sisters lived there in Cody, where he's at. He contacted

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Speaker 3: nobody Alan, so.

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Speaker 7: He didn't even report his The one year old spurns.

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Speaker 7: She had second and third degree burns on her and

436
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 7: he kept those heads so though he didn't have to

437
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 7: take her to the hospital or report it to the police.

438
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 3: When was that he kept the burn kid? When he

439
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 3: got back from his mother Stacey, she has the grand babies.

440
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 3: They are safe. She's a wonderful grandmother. But when I

441
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 3: called and had the police involved right away, I also

442
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 3: said those kids need to be took away from him,

443
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 3: and they did within two days. They took the babies away.

444
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 7: Poor baby had burns all over her body.

445
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 3: And the grandmother saw the burns right away. He had

446
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 3: kept them hidden from her with a coat.

447
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: How did the baby get burns?

448
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 3: They asked the four year old and Harlowe, and she

449
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 3: said that every fell in the campfire.

450
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: Campfire.

451
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: Yes, they've been camping along the way.

452
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: Okay, that's telling me a lot. And the baby, Everly

453
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: fell into the campfire. Everly is one daughter, Harlow is four.

454
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: Is my understanding, Okay? That is changing things. Chris Adams

455
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: with me, survival expert that tells me as I suspected

456
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 1: that they actually camped out on this trip. I don't

457
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: know that that was intended. But the one year old

458
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: falls into the campfire, so they she is out there there.

459
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 6: Again, with lack of details, we don't know where out

460
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 6: there is. We can assume that it is somewhere off

461
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 6: of a major highway, but a national park, historic site,

462
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 6: state park, but we don't know which one, We don't

463
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 6: know what the terrain there was, and we simply don't

464
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 6: even begin to know where to look for them unless

465
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 6: anybody has an idea of where they stayed at Mona Hartlin.

466
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: You've just heard from police and they tell you they've

467
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: got the phone records, right, Yes, that should tell us

468
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: where her phone last pinged. Have they told you that yet?

469
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 3: No. The detective was going over it with the.

470
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: FBI also joining me. Renowned in his feel a former

471
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: detective Justin Boardman, Utah West Valley PD Special Victims Unit,

472
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: now Boardman training and Consulting. You know what I don't

473
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: like Justin so many things, but the fact that he

474
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: shows up and doesn't tell Mona or Alan or anyone

475
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: in Katie's family. Hey, Katie didn't make the trip back nothing,

476
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: he just shows up and moves in to his dad's house.

477
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's that's absolutely correct that that bothers me as well.

478
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 8: But also what bothers me is a one year old

479
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 8: that has burned, especially if the one year old's not

480
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 8: able to walk yet. How did it end up in

481
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 8: a campfire? Was there a struggle?

482
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 3: Was there?

483
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 8: You know that sort of thing?

484
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: Well along that line, justin, boardman, And you should know,

485
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: with all the cases you've handled, if a child gets

486
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: burned at a campfire, you go at least to a

487
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: doc in the box, at the very least, you know,

488
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: a little emergency clinic. So why would you choose not

489
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: to go to the er or the dock in a box?

490
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: Why because you're hiding something exactly? Justin, Yeah, scientist, I'm

491
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: just thinking, and justin, please jump in whenever you have

492
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: a thought. You've seen these scenarios so many times. Also

493
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: joining me. Doctor Sherry Schwartz forensic psychologists specializing in victim advocacy.

494
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: She's at panthermitigation dot com and on Twitter. She's at

495
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: trial doc at trial dot author of Criminal Behavior and

496
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: where Law in Psychology intersect doctor Sherry. I want you

497
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: to hear this. Take a listen to investigative reporter Jackie Howard.

498
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 10: Katie Ferguson missed her youngest daughter's first birthday. Family members

499
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 10: say she is not one to hide, and she wouldn't

500
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 10: willingly stop talking to family. But that's not what Adam

501
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 10: Avelez is telling police. Speaking to cops November eighth, he

502
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 10: reportedly told officers that Katie was not missing, but she

503
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 10: just does not want contact with her mother. And there's

504
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 10: more being said. The Cowboys. State Daily reports during an

505
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 10: interview with the children, one of the girls tells investigators

506
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 10: that the father accidentally hurt her mother.

507
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: You know, that's reminding me of doctor Sherry Schwartz, and

508
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: we've discussed this together before. The case of Susan Powell.

509
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: Josh Powell wakes up his little boys, I think, ages

510
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: two and four, and takes the whole family on a

511
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: camping trip at midnight in the snow. When they were

512
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: later asked about where's mommy, one of them draws a

513
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: picture with mommy in the car trunk, and the other

514
00:31:53,560 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: tells investigators Mommy's in the crystal minds. Okay, now we've

515
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: got a child stating Daddy accidentally hurt mommy. So how

516
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: does child know how to say accidentally hurt? I'm just

517
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: very curious, Doctor Sherry Schwartz, Right.

518
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 5: Well, my educated guess is that daddy said it was

519
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 5: an accident, and if anybody asked, it was an accident,

520
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 5: Daddy didn't mean to do it right, And at four

521
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 5: years old, you are completely at the mercy of the

522
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 5: adults around you, particularly if daddy is scary and does

523
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 5: scary things. Right, So, if daddy says this is what happened,

524
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 5: that's what you're going to say, happen. I don't think

525
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 5: the child's lying. I think the child believes daddy because

526
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 5: this is her daddy, and why would he lie to her?

527
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: Just like daddy Josh Powell said, Mommy's in the crystal minds,

528
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: you know. I just want to be very clear from

529
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: everything I know about this family and about Katie, there's

530
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: no way she would have left her children. No way.

531
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: She's left her children before, one time for a couple

532
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: of weeks with her mother. Her mother and joining me

533
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: right now is Katie's mother and brother, and they are

534
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: asking and I am asking for your help in finding Katie.

535
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: The tip line is three zero seven five two seven

536
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: eight seven one zero repeat three zero seven five two

537
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: seven eight seven one zero. And I want to go

538
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: back to Katie's mother, Mona Hartling and her brother Alan Ferguson. Mona,

539
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: has she ever missed the children's birthdays?

540
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 3: No? Never, and everly this was her first birthday. She

541
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 3: would never miss a birthday. She would never walk away

542
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 3: like this.

543
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: That was her first birthday.

544
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 3: Yes.

545
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: Has she ever abandoned the children before? Ever?

546
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,239
Speaker 3: No, she does not. She's a good mom. All she

547
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 3: ever wanted to be was a mother. That's all she

548
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 3: ever wanted to be. Those babies are her heart.

549
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: I want to hear about how all she wanted to

550
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: be was a mother.

551
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 3: That's all she wanted to be. She looked forward to it.

552
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: Is that why she got back with Avila? Because the

553
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: babies wanted daddy. They want to talk to daddy.

554
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 3: I believe so. The youngest never even met her father.

555
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 3: We had the baby since Katie was with me, and

556
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 3: we were in the safe house when the baby was born.

557
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: Why were you in a safe house because of him?

558
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 1: Why what did he do to make you go into

559
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: hiding in a safe house with Katie?

560
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 3: The abuse got too bad.

561
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: What abuse?

562
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 3: It was physical and mental.

563
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: When you say physical, what exactly do you mean?

564
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 3: He had jumped on her, choked her out when she

565
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 3: was pregnant, left marks on her arms, big big bruises.

566
00:34:58,200 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 3: She would never report it?

567
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:00,760
Speaker 1: Why did you not reported?

568
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 3: I believe fear.

569
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: The abuse cycle where you want it to be like

570
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: the Hallmark card, and you believe it to be and

571
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: you want the man, and typically it is the man

572
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: to be the person you thought you married or you

573
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: thought you had children with, and you believe it so

574
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: much you're ready to stake everything on it, including your life.

575
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: You mean that cycle?

576
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 7: It takes up to seven times for an abuse victim

577
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 7: to finally leave their abuser, and sometimes that doesn't even happen.

578
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace, Doctor Sherry Schwartz.

579
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 3: How is it?

580
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: And I've not only prosecuted domestic homicides and aggravated assaults

581
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: more than I can count. I worked at the Batter

582
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: Women's Center for nine years on the hotline, Doctor Sherry Schwartz,

583
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: How is it that we particularly women, have this in

584
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: our heads so strongly and we want that nuclear family

585
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: to be perfect that we are willing to suspend disbelief

586
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: and continue in an abusive relationship. How does this happen?

587
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 5: Well, there's a number of reasons. I mean, there's a

588
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 5: very complex concept that I'll make very simple called the

589
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 5: trauma bond. And basically, when it's really good the relationship,

590
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 5: it's the best ever, right, and all of your positive

591
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 5: emotions and positive hormones are flowing. And when it's really bad,

592
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 5: it's bad, but you know that that is followed up

593
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 5: by the really good, and so the really good positively

594
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 5: reinforces the bad because you know the good is coming.

595
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 5: But there's other factors as well. I mean, one of

596
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 5: the most basic is you love this person, You want

597
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 5: to leave the best of them. You want your children

598
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 5: to have their father, their other parent in their life.

599
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 5: You may have money issues, so you can't leave that person.

600
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 5: So there are so many factors, and Alan is absolutely

601
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 5: correct it takes five to seven times. And when a

602
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 5: victim is trying to leave their abuser, as you know

603
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 5: Nancy as a prosecutor, that is the most dangerous time

604
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 5: for them.

605
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: And I heard Mona Hartlaning her mother say that he

606
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 1: quote choked her out when she was pregnant. The number

607
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: one cause of death of pregnant women, and I couldn't

608
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: believe this when I heard it. I had to look

609
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: it up. In New England Journal of Medicine is homicide.

610
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: Number one cause of death of pregnant women is homicide.

611
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: I thought it would be a stroke or a heart attack,

612
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: or something to do with the pregnancy itself. No, it's not,

613
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 1: and I couldn't believe it until I looked it up myself. Well,

614
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: the very best of the relationship and the very worst

615
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: of the relationship. Take ust an hour cut eleven, Sydney's

616
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 1: Summer Crime Online.

617
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 11: On November fourth, someone reports Adam Avila's Dodge Durango as

618
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 11: abandoned in Park County. Deputies investigate and find not only

619
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 11: has the front passenger seat been removed, there is a

620
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 11: projectile hole through the passenger door. Officers find a loaded glock,

621
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 11: forty five pistol magazine, and Clorox wipes. They say the

622
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 11: car smells.

623
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: Of putrefied blood.

624
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 11: As deputies are still investigating, adam Avila's walks up to

625
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 11: the car with a gas can, telling deputies the Durango

626
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 11: ran out of gas and was inoperable.

627
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: Nicole parton Do I understand this correctly? A projectile hole

628
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 1: through the passenger door, a loaded glot, forty five pistol

629
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: mag and Clorox wipes, and the car smells, according to police,

630
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: like putrified blood.

631
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 5: Right, that's correct. And the front passenger seat is missing.

632
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 5: The seat's not even in the truck anymore.

633
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 7: It's missing.

634
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 5: Also, it's reported that there were clothes and rags that

635
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 5: were covered in blood and a lot of cleaning supplies

636
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 5: in the back of the truck.

637
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: It is hearkening back. It harkens me back to the

638
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: case of missing mom of five from Connecticut, Jennifer Dulos,

639
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: when cops finally get a hold of the car that

640
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: her husband, Photus Dulos had borrowed, the back seat had

641
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: been removed and replaced with a different type of back seat.

642
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: Let me go now to mom Mona Hartling and brother

643
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: Alan Ferguson. Alan, what do you think has happened?

644
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 7: I want to go first, Mommer, doin me to help

645
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 7: you go ahead. I truly believe that he has done

646
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 7: something to her. With the evidence they have so far,

647
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 7: and we know the blood it's came back as human blood.

648
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 7: We don't have the DNA test back, but we do

649
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 7: know it's human blood. I just me and my sister

650
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 7: were very close. We me and Katie were raised by

651
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,879
Speaker 7: my mother and my other two sisters were raised by

652
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 7: my father, and so we were just always very very close.

653
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 7: And I heard about it. I just knew that she

654
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 7: wasn't with us. It's not that I don't want to

655
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 7: give up hope or anything like that. It's just something

656
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 7: that you can feel. And then when the evidence came

657
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 7: out more and more, I do believe that he did

658
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 7: something with her. I believe the fire has something to

659
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 7: do with it. I believe that he possibly disposed of

660
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 7: her in some way.

661
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 3: I believe it was he disposed of her and water.

662
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: Why do you think that.

663
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 3: Mother's got instincts and my son also is. And we've

664
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 3: had dreams. I know that sounds kind of ridiculous.

665
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound ridiculous to me at all.

666
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 3: Dreams of her coming up out of a river bank,

667
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 3: not a sandy spot, a river bank and walking on

668
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 3: a dirt path and there's a campfire and she her

669
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: arms are open and she's just coming to me over

670
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 3: and over, Mom, Mom, and she's deceased, and there's like

671
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 3: moss in her hair, And yeah, I believe he did something.

672
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 3: My son has also had dreams. I don't. She's not

673
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 3: with us any her.

674
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, he's definitely she's I truly believe she's no longer

675
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 7: with us. I also want people just to know how

676
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 7: much of a beautiful person she was, and how goofy

677
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 7: she was, and how amazing and sweet and kind. Yes,

678
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 7: but you know, she's not just another domestic violence victim.

679
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 7: She was a real person, and she was such a beautiful,

680
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 7: kind person and just a just a really really amazing sister.

681
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 3: She was a mother, she was a sister, she was

682
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 3: a daughter, she was an auntie. There's a hole inside

683
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 3: that will never be replaced. I want women to know

684
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 3: they can get out of it. I've been through it.

685
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 3: You they can do out. There is hope. You just

686
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 3: have to make the step forward and leave.

687
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: You are hearing Katie's mother, Mona Hartling and her brother

688
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: Alan Ferguson, and I agree with them. I think that

689
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: as they put it, Katie is no longer with us.

690
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: But what we can do for them now is seek

691
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: justice by God. The tip line is three zero seven

692
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: five two seven eight seven one zero. Please help us

693
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: bring Katie home. Goodbye friend,