WEBVTT - Short Stuff: Benin Bronzes 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:06.800 Hey, and welcome to the short Stuff. I'm Josh, Chuck's 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:09.320 here too, Jerry's here to Dave's not, but you know 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:14.000 the jam and this is short stuff. You go, Okay, 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:18.440 I'll go. So we're talking about the Benin bronzes and 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:22.040 they are a treasure trove of artworks that came out 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.200 of Benin, which is a former kingdom. Actually it's still 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:27.479 a current kingdom in Edo State in the south of 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:33.559 Nigeria right now, but before Nigeria was Nigeria, Benin was 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:37.880 a kingdom along West Africa that was a very powerful kingdom. 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:40.199 And one of the things that they did when a 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:44.159 new king, which they called an obah oba or a 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:47.440 new queen mother, ascended to the throne, when there was 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:53.080 some sort of important event or even something that they 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:56.200 just wanted to kind of chronicle, they would make these plaques, 0:00:56.280 --> 0:01:02.280 these incredibly intricate, well made ron's plaques. And over time, 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.800 over hundreds of years of creating these things and documenting 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:09.160 the kingdom, they ended up with a lot of these things, 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:13.679 and so much so that it became essentially considered a 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:17.160 cultural legacy of the world, but in particular of Benin 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:18.440 in West Africa. 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:20.920 Yeah. Absolutely, boy, what a set up. 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.360 Thanks. I've been practicing it for like eight days. 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.440 I really know what you're doing. They also serve as 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:28.920 a historical record, of course, because like you said, they 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:31.840 came along when there were new obas and new queen mothers. 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.320 So it's art and its history all wrapped up into one. 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:39.200 And one element of the historical part of it is 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:42.399 how it figures in, and this very much figures in 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:44.920 with sort of the story. Here is their contact with 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:49.760 Europeans in Europe and these countries, the first of which 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:54.559 was the Portuguese. When they started trading and having diplomatic 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:58.640 contacts and relations with Portugal, so they were sort of 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:01.560 the first on board. They would send emissaries back and 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:06.360 forth between Portugal and Benin and they negotiated their their 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:09.440 their deal, their trade deal, their sort of how they 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:14.280 were going to work together as people, and that's where 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:17.919 Europe enters the picture basically as far as Benin is concerned. 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:20.280 Yeah, and it was just the Portuguese at first. That 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:21.440 was I don't know if you said it or not, 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.400 but starting in the fifteenth century they made contact and 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:27.799 we're trading with them, and then shortly after that this 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:31.640 is like the Age of Discovery, where people from Europe 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:34.040 just started sailing around being like, hey, hey, who wants 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:35.840 to buy our stuff? And whose stuff can we buy 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:40.440 so or take? Yeah, yeah, exactly. They were very quickly 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:43.840 followed by the French, the Dutch, the English, and Benins 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:47.720 trading with all of these European nations. And they were 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.239 already a fairly powerful kingdom from what I can tell, 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:54.920 but they became exponentially powerful because they positioned themselves as 0:02:55.040 --> 0:03:02.280 the contact between European traders and countries and kingdoms and 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.280 states in the interior. You wanted to trade with any 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.400 other groups in West Africa, you needed to go through 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:10.880 the Kingdom of Benin to do that if you were 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.520 a European. And so they became very very powerful, and 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.440 that's kind of how things went for a couple of centuries. 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:22.800 They became really involved in the West African slave trade. 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:28.919 They supplied slaves to the Europeans, They traded leopard skins, pepper, ivory, 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.240 things that were really valued in Europe. They had a 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.440 lot of stuff that the Europeans wanted, So, like I said, 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:39.880 they became powerful. But as industrializations started to really take 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:45.480 hold in Europe, particularly in the UK, Great Britain became 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:49.520 more and more powerful, and essentially eventually I should say, 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:54.360 dominated trade with West Africa and Benin in particular. But 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.000 they weren't happy with having a monopoly. They wanted to 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:58.960 get rid of Benin altogether and just be able to 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.160 trade with people in the er. Why should they have 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:03.400 a middle man, and so they started to kind of 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:06.840 antagonize Benin and things just kind of went south from there. 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:09.760 It's a little early, but I think we should take 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:11.280 a break because it's such a good cliffhanger. 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.240 Wow, thanks man, all right, we'll be right. 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:39.960 Back, all right. So when we left off, Great Britain 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:41.880 was like, hey, you know what, we don't need this 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:45.000 gatekeeper anymore. We don't need a middle man. We want 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:46.920 to be able to do what we want in Africa 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:50.360 and Central Africa and not go through Benin. So in 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:54.880 eighteen ninety seven, in January of that year, they supposedly 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.520 a peaceful mission, but it was a pretty aggressive, provocative 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:02.280 thing that they did. The British Trade mission went in 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:05.960 and they were attacked when they're on their way to 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.640 Benin City, and this really changed everything. There were seven 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:14.440 British delegates who died in this attack. I think two 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.840 hundred and thirty of the African carriers died. But as 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.760 far as Britain was concerned, is it's on now because 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:25.960 seven of us are dead. And that triggered a full 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:32.640 scale a retaliatory military assault and expedition on Benin, which 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:34.840 of course was no match at all for the British 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:36.120 forces at the time. Yeah. 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.200 No, it was something that Great Britain could point to 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.520 and just be like, oh, look, we don't have any 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.920 moral quander anymore. We can go take over Benin now 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:50.120 under the guise of revenge. This is called the Punitive expedition. 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:52.360 And so they sent in a bunch of a large 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:56.200 military contingent and they just occupied Benin, killed off a 0:05:56.200 --> 0:06:00.400 lot of the chiefs, they exiled the Oba, they pilled 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:02.320 and this is really critical, This is kind of the 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:06.680 point of this short stuff. They pillaged stuff, they found treasures, 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.640 they found a Benin and one of the things they 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:14.279 pillaged was the Benin bronzes. And in addition to those 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:19.479 plaques that we talked about, the Benin bronze, that that term, 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.159 it's like an umbrella term to describe a whole group 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:25.719 of artworks that were created in the Kingdom of Benin 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:30.679 from about the at least the fifteenth century up until 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.880 the nineteenth century, although they seem to have been creating 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.080 pretty great artworks even before that fifteenth century, like in 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.800 the medieval era. But this it could be made of ivory, 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.320 it could be made of brass, it could be made 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:49.360 of bronze. All sorts of different media in making jewelry, 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:53.080 or making busts, or making altar pieces, or making those plaques, 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:56.280 all of those are encompassed by this Benin bronze term. 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.040 And all of those were pillaged. I think ten thousand 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:04.839 pieces of art and cultural artifacts were pillaged during this 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:07.200 occupation by the British of Benin. 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.360 Yeah, and a lot of that went back to the UK. 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:12.920 You know, they call that spoils of war, which is 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:15.600 a nice way to say things we stole after we 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:20.000 invaded a country, and some of it they distributed among 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:22.200 some of the people of the expedition, like here, you 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.360 take this, you take this, I'll be taking this, and 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:31.720 they basically remove Benin as that gatekeeper, and all of 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.440 a sudden, you know, Central Africa was open for all 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:38.840 of Europe to trade with, certainly England, and these artifacts 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.240 ended up you know where they always end up in 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:47.640 the hands of nobility, private collections and notably museums, where 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.120 a lot of this stuff are still in these museums today, right. 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.679 Yeah, the two largest collections are held by the British 0:07:54.720 --> 0:08:01.400 Museum and the Ethnographic Museum in Berlin. And even though 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:05.480 that that umbrella term Benine bronzes refers to a lot 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:09.040 of different artworks, typically you're also really talking about those 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:12.320 plaques that show different you know, different Obasa sending to 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:17.880 the throne, different you know, moments in benin history. And 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:21.440 they're they're considered like a again I think I said, 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:26.400 a cultural legacy of humanity. But they're also just treasure. 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.800 I mean, they're worth Chuck, I saw an estimated one 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:34.640 hundred and thirty billion dollars. They are priceless, I guess 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:36.559 not priceless. They were the one hundred and thirty billion, 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:41.920 but they're incredibly valuable, not just monetarily, but also culturally 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:45.960 and historically, and they are outside of Africa. There was 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:52.040 a French report by a restitution group that was commissioned 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:56.800 by Emanuel Macron in twenty seventeen that estimated that ninety 0:08:56.840 --> 0:09:01.280 to ninety five percent of Africa's cultural hair is held 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:06.280 by major museums outside of Africa because of something called 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:09.080 the Scramble for Africa in the late nineteenth century, when 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:12.440 all these European powers just invaded Africa and started carving 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:14.800 it up and turning it into colonies. They took all 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:16.960 the stuff that they liked and sent it back to 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.920 Europe and it's still in these museums. 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.840 Yeah. But and this is something we've talked about before 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:26.720 in some other art podcasts. Part of that twenty seventeen study. 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:31.000 The whole point of that was repatriation, was getting this 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:35.440 art back into the hands of the countries of origin, 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.400 these stolen artifacts. And Emmanuel Macron said, you know what, 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.880 over the next five years, we're gonna return the stuff 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:47.680 that we have. Germany got involved the Smithsonian, like individual museums, 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:52.559 the Smithsonian and the met all have said like, all right, 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:57.079 we need to start, you know, returning these these looted 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:00.400 art pieces, especially these were not as spac actually, but 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:04.600 for this episode, you know, notably these bronze plaques from Nigeria, 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:09.240 and so Nigeria is getting so much stuff back that 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.120 next year. I don't know if it's still on track, 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.040 but in twenty twenty five, they are opening the Edo 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.600 Museum of West African Art because they finally have art again. 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.960 Yeah, there was a sculptor from Nigeria called a Hanjazo Gleiley, 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:29.040 He's a sculptor and said that there's an artistic awakening 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:31.960 in Nigeria because of the return of these bronzes. 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:36.760 Yeah. But I think this one in particular comes with 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:41.680 a little bit of controversy, right because the the current 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:48.440 OBA is that right, Yes, his Royal Majesty Oba Uwaar 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:55.400 the second I'm going with ure the second okay, legally 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.640 speaking as the rightful owner of these bronzes. But in 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:05.000 twenty twenty three, Muhammadu Bihari, who is the outgoing president said, 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:07.760 you know, any of this looted stuff that comes back 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.720 to the Oba like belongs to the Oba and the 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:15.040 palace of the Oba, and no one can do anything 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:16.760 with it unless the Oba says so. 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.160 Yeah, and if you are in Nigeria and like Benin, 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.480 it's still it's just a department, like we said, it's 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:28.560 a not considered like an independent nation state or even kingdom. 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:32.160 I guess it's part of Nigeria. But it's like the 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:36.319 Oba has like a government advisory role to the Nigerian 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:40.800 government like they're they're viewed legitimately in similar lines to 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.600 the way the man somebody's gonna kill us for this 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.560 little bit. But the royal family is in Great Britain. 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.679 They don't actually rule Great Britain, but they still have 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.960 they're still consulted on things, they still have some sort 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:56.200 of cultural importance as well. That's the impression that I 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.560 have there. But so the Nigerian president doing that makes 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.839 total sense in Nigeria, like it was the Kingdom of 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.040 Benins to begin with, the Kingdom of Benin is still there. 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.520 Though oh Ba is the leader of the Kingdom of Benina, 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:12.480 ancestor or a descendant of these people from whom these 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.560 plaques were stolen, it makes sense that it's his. But 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.640 outside of Nigeria, if you're a museum curator, you don't 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:20.760 like the sound of that at all. 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:24.920 Yeah, I mean, there's definitely been some complaints from these 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.360 Western museums who are like, you know, I don't know 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:30.760 about returning all this stuff and having it just be 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:35.600 claimed by the palace, and you know, apparently the museum 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:40.319 director there, Philip Ihanako, is how I'm going to pronounce it. 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.000 Although I have appealing that I might be silent, said, 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:45.160 you know what, you don't really get a say in 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:49.320 this anymore. Yeah, like you can't loot this stuff over 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.959 you know, a long period of time and then a 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:55.840 expect it to be you know, handled like you want 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.680 or handled you know, perfectly in a very quick manner. 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:03.240 And so yeah, the West is like, okay, you know, 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:08.199 we agreed, like these are illegitimately taken from Benin, so 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:11.240 they need to go back to Benin, and they're just 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:13.920 going to have to deal with the fact that this 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.680 this cultural legacy of humanity is privately owned by one person, 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:19.160 the Oba of Benin. 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:21.240 I mean, is it the complaint that it's not going 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:25.000 to be or not necessarily going to be on display. 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.400 I don't know, because they built the Museum of West 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.200 African Art, so I don't know that that's it. I 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.360 think the idea is in the West, if a museum 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.800 owns something, it belongs to everybody, and the museums is 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.400 kind of the keeper of that. They protected the keeper shape. 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.079 They show you this this stuff, they put it on display. 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.520 This is like, no, these things belong to the Oba. 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:48.600 He can do whatever he wants. 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.439 Yeah, essentially, Okay, so they're afraid it's just going to 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:53.000 be like decorating the bathroom or something. 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.920 I guess I think so, I'm not sure. I just 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.719 think that they're a little skittish about the whole thing. 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.400 And I think the guy who, like Well West needs 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:02.880 to butt out of it and just give us our 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:06.080 plaques back. It's tough not to. It's tough to discount 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.520 his thoughts too. Are you got anything else? 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:11.160 I got nothing else. 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.280 If you want to know more about the Benin bronzes, 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.640 go look them up online. They're really fascinating and beautiful. 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:21.880 And since I said that short, stuff's out. 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:25.320 Stuff you should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:28.920 more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:29.600 Podcasts 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:31.560 Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.