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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema.

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Speaker 3: This is Rob Lamp and this is Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 3: today we're going to be talking about the nineteen seventy

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Speaker 3: nine Japanese fantasy drama Demon Pond, directed by Massive hero

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Speaker 3: Shinoda with music by Esau Tomida.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a film that had been on my

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Speaker 2: radar for quite a bit, and I was eager to

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Speaker 2: cover it when you brought it up, because in my

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Speaker 2: memory I had watched a good chunk of this film

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Speaker 2: on a flight maybe a year or so ago. Turns

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Speaker 2: out I realized this once I started rewatching it. Oh,

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Speaker 2: I actually watched the whole thing on the flight, but

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Speaker 2: that might have been a red eye. I don't remember.

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Speaker 2: But you know, it was one of these flights where

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Speaker 2: I'm coming in and out and watching the film. You know,

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Speaker 2: either there's some sort of distraction or I'm falling to sleep.

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Speaker 2: And this is not a dig on this movie at all,

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Speaker 2: but this is a very very easy film to fall

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Speaker 2: fall asleep too. It's a film that invites transference into

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Speaker 2: the dream realm because it has such an elegant soundtrack

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Speaker 2: that's very soothing in many of its stretches. It also

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Speaker 2: has this dreamlike visual vibe. Everything feels like the world

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Speaker 2: feels like it is in a constant state of twilight

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Speaker 2: or gloaming. So it is a sleepy film in all

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Speaker 2: the best ways.

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Speaker 3: It's a film that convinces you that you may already

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Speaker 3: be dreaming. Yeah, so it's a little bit easier to

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Speaker 3: slip into the actual state. We were talking just before

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Speaker 3: we started about it. I for a moment was trying

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Speaker 3: to make the case that, you know, it's got to

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Speaker 3: be easier to fall asleep during the first half of

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Speaker 3: the movie, before all the goblins show up and things

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Speaker 3: get really crazy, you know, when it brings in all

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Speaker 3: of the fantasy Kabooki elements, but not really even once

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Speaker 3: all of the wildness starts, I think it's still kind

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Speaker 3: of wants to pull you into dream world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think so. Now. You mentioned already that

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Speaker 2: you could classify this as fantasy romance. I've also seen

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Speaker 2: discussions of it as a work of folk horror. But

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Speaker 2: I think at the end of the day, this is

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Speaker 2: one of those films to just so much more than

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Speaker 2: any classification. We could just you know, bust out and

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Speaker 2: throw at it. Much has been written about exactly what

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Speaker 2: Demon Pond is and where it stands in the history

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Speaker 2: of Japanese cinema, but I guess in broad strokes, it's

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Speaker 2: essentially a film adaptation of a very this was what

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Speaker 2: a seventy eight film. No, seventy ninety film. It's a

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Speaker 2: seventy nine adaptation of a seventy eight staging of a

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirteen kabuki play.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which is interesting because this is also considered part

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Speaker 3: of the I guess it would be becoming at the

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Speaker 3: tail end of this but part of the Japanese New

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Speaker 3: wave cinema movement. So it's it's very old and new

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Speaker 3: at the same time, and you feel that in multiple ways,

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Speaker 3: even in the story itself, but also in the elements

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Speaker 3: that are coming together because it's taking this ancient art

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Speaker 3: form as taking kabuki theater and I think some other

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Speaker 3: older traditions as well, and wrapping it up in a

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Speaker 3: very novel cinema style.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's I think most discussions you're going to see

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Speaker 2: about this film are talking about some sort of merging

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Speaker 2: taking place generally, you know, like you said, new wave

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Speaker 2: in old school new and old traditions, like more modern,

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Speaker 2: westernized and western conscious Japan versus deeper Japanese traditions. Stage

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Speaker 2: meets the screen. Traditional Japanese stage symbolism from both kabuki

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Speaker 2: and no theater collide with the more naturalist film styles

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Speaker 2: that are summoned in many stretches of this film, and indeed,

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Speaker 2: the original play was apparently, in many ways a counter

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Speaker 2: to naturalist theater in Japan. Naturalist theater in Japan is

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Speaker 2: inspired by Western theater traditions. So modernity meets tradition, urban

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Speaker 2: meets rural politics and folklore, and the human world collides

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Speaker 2: with the natural world in ways that are both subtle

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Speaker 2: and just utterly bombastic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So, a very simple summary of the plot is

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Speaker 3: that it concerns a man who goes out wandering in

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Speaker 3: the countryside on holiday. It's a man named Gakawin, who

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Speaker 3: is a school teacher, very much a man interested in

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Speaker 3: the sciences, in rationalism. He's a school teacher, and he

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Speaker 3: goes out to the mountains and the countryside, comes to

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Speaker 3: a village that is parched with drought, and there he

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Speaker 3: encounters a couple of people, a strange, enigmatic woman and

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Speaker 3: her husband who turns out to be a long lost

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Speaker 3: friend of his, a friend who vanished three years earlier,

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Speaker 3: and reigniting his friendship with this man, and meeting and

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Speaker 3: learning about his new wife, who is a woman from

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Speaker 3: this village. The three of them sort of become wrapped

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Speaker 3: up in this legend that concerns the village, a bell

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Speaker 3: that hangs over the village, and an apocalyptic potential, you know,

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Speaker 3: a great disaster and calamity that could come and fall

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Speaker 3: upon the people of this valley here if traditions are

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Speaker 3: not kept to. And this does involve the titular demon

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Speaker 3: pond and the power that lies beneath it, And so

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Speaker 3: it ends up bringing in a lot of different themes.

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Speaker 3: When I started trying to count them up in my mind,

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Speaker 3: I was like, Wow, this movie it has it involves

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Speaker 3: more than you would think it does. I guess like

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Speaker 3: you were just saying, like urban and rural ideas things

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Speaker 3: about politics. I think, weirdly, this is a political film.

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Speaker 3: It kind of from that description doesn't sound like one,

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Speaker 3: but it is one. And yeah, ideas of tradition and

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Speaker 3: modernity and science and rationalism and promises that how important

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Speaker 3: it is to keep or pise keep promises and you know,

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Speaker 3: even when it doesn't feel like they're important. And another

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Speaker 3: thing that so interesting about it is the way that

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Speaker 3: the movie jumps between tones.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: That almost the entire first half of this movie is

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Speaker 3: a quiet, subtle, strange character drama that is entirely realistic

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Speaker 3: with no fantastical elements. It just has just has characters

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Speaker 3: kind of exploring a landscape and talking to each other

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Speaker 3: and getting weird vibes. There's a lot there is a

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Speaker 3: lot of apprehension and feelings of the uncanny in the

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Speaker 3: first half, but nothing actually supernatural happens. And then suddenly

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Speaker 3: in the middle of the movie there is a hard

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Speaker 3: shift into goblin world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the Goblin starts showing up. It's a little

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Speaker 2: jarring at first because it's because, as we'll discuss, like

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Speaker 2: they have kind of the vibe of like goofy live

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Speaker 2: action yokai characters from various Japanese jokai.

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Speaker 3: Films broad comedic performances.

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Speaker 2: And with the superior lighting in this picture, they also

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Speaker 2: reminded me a little bit of the goblins in Ridley

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Speaker 2: Scott's Legend, especially since you know they're engaging in cackling

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Speaker 2: conversations about things.

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Speaker 3: I would almost wonder if this movie inspired Legend.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very possible.

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Speaker 3: You know, it seems like it could have.

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Speaker 2: Given the sort of film they were trying to make

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Speaker 2: with Legend, I think this would be a natural thing

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Speaker 2: to look at.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And so of course all of this character

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Speaker 3: drama and the fantastical elements come together for you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to spoil too much right here at

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Speaker 3: the beginning, but just to let you know, we are

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Speaker 3: going to be talking about the plot in exquisite detail

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Speaker 3: as we go on. So if you want to see

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Speaker 3: the movie without things being spoiled, this would be a

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Speaker 3: good time to stop and you know, go watch it yourself,

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Speaker 3: because we will talk in detail. But it builds up

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Speaker 3: to a terrifying apocalyptic conclusion that really kind of had

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Speaker 3: my jaw on the floor.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I want to note too that

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Speaker 2: in addition to the you know, the lighting and the

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Speaker 2: way that you can everything looks like it's in Twilight,

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Speaker 2: everything is also really lush in this picture. And in fact,

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Speaker 2: they filmed in Hawaii and Brazil in order to capture

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Speaker 2: all of that that lushness of the of vegetation. And

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Speaker 2: then ultimately some of the torrential aquatic elements that are

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Speaker 2: going to be in play late in the picture.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the greenness of vegetation is a very important part

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Speaker 3: of this movie. Yeah, as is water.

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Speaker 2: All Right, at this point you might be wondering, well,

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Speaker 2: where can I watch Demon Pond? Well, Criterion is going

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Speaker 2: to be your main source for this film, one way

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Speaker 2: or another. I'm to understand. For a very long time,

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Speaker 2: this was not available until a four K restoration was

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Speaker 2: put together with the approval of the director and its

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Speaker 2: main star, And this is the version you're going to

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Speaker 2: find out there in the world right now. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: Criterion either via their physical release disc which I rented

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Speaker 2: from Atlanta's own videodrome, or you can on the Criterion

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Speaker 2: streaming channel, which is also a great source for this

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Speaker 2: sort of thing. But on top of that, there are

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Speaker 2: also some other streaming platforms that also allow you to

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Speaker 2: rent or buy it.

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Speaker 3: Did you happen to see the review online? Where was it?

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Speaker 3: John from Videodrome who said he spent years trying to

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Speaker 3: figure out what this movie was that he saw it

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Speaker 3: a long time ago.

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Speaker 2: I didn't read his review, but I like his reviews

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Speaker 2: in general, and so that's a strong sign from him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But anyway, while I was thinking, also, it speaks

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Speaker 3: to the idea that for a long time this was

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Speaker 3: not particularly available. I guess there had been a VHS

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Speaker 3: release a long time ago, but I think maybe a

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Speaker 3: lot of people were in that situation of like having

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Speaker 3: seen it in some way and a VHS release maybe

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Speaker 3: and then not remembering what it was or not being

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Speaker 3: able to find it on DVD or on Blu Ray

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Speaker 3: until more recently.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the version that's out now is terrific. It's

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Speaker 2: also traveled around. There has been a chance to see

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Speaker 2: it on the screen on the big screen in recent

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Speaker 2: years and probably in the future as well. I believe

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Speaker 2: Videodrome co hosted a showing of it at the Tara

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Speaker 2: Theater here in Atlanta. I've also seen that it played

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Speaker 2: at places like MoMA, So you know, it's made the rounds.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people have gotten to see this on

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Speaker 2: the big screen, and again in the quality that it deserves. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the extras on that Blue Array are really nice, by

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Speaker 2: the way, They're not a ton of them, but what

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Speaker 2: is on there is very informative. Particularly, there's a really

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Speaker 2: nice piece on the film by noted film scholar Dudley Andrew,

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Speaker 2: and I'll refer back to some of the things that

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Speaker 2: Andrew points out as we perceive.

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Speaker 3: Okay, should we talk about the people who made this?

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Speaker 2: Let's do it starting at the top with a director,

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Speaker 2: Masahiro Shinoda, who lived nineteen thirty one through twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 2: Japanese director central to the Japanese New Wave movement of

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Speaker 2: the fifties, sixties, and seventies. Now, Joe I had not

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Speaker 2: seen any of his films before, so you'll have to

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Speaker 2: jump in if you have more familiarity with some of

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Speaker 2: these titles. Okay, his best known works, and clue, let's

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Speaker 2: see sixty four's Pale Flower.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's actually the other Shinoda movie I've seen. I

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Speaker 3: just watched that one the other night, and that one

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Speaker 3: is also amazing. It is a it's a realistic drama,

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Speaker 3: so there are no fantastical elements in it. But it

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Speaker 3: is a I think, I guess considered a neo noir.

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Speaker 3: It's a noir film about a yakuza gangster who just

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Speaker 3: gets out of prison and then gets involved with a

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Speaker 3: woman that he meets at a gambling parlor who is

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Speaker 3: on this thrill seeking streak. This woman is engaging in

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Speaker 3: self destructive behaviors, seeking more and more dangerous, higher risk thrills,

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Speaker 3: and this man is falling in love with her at

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Speaker 3: the same time, and then I don't know, there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of other interesting drama going on. So I thought

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Speaker 3: that movie was fantastic, and maybe we can talk some

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Speaker 3: more about it as we go on. But a really interesting, dark, complicated,

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Speaker 3: character driven noir that I greatly enjoyed.

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Speaker 2: Oh excellent. Let's see how the works include sixty nine's

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Speaker 2: Double Suicide. This one is based on a puppet play,

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Speaker 2: I believe, traditional puppet play, seventy one, Silence, seventy four's Somiko,

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Speaker 2: seventy fives Under the Blossoming Cherry Trees, and eighty one's

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Speaker 2: Island of the Evil Spirits.

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Speaker 3: I have not seen any of those other ones, but

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Speaker 3: I did want to flag I have seen Martin Scorsese's

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Speaker 3: adaptation of Silence, the adaptation of the same novel that.

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Speaker 2: Oh, of course, i'd forgotten about that connection.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that Shinoda's Silence is based on, which

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Speaker 3: is about Catholic missionaries in Japan hundreds of years ago.

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Speaker 3: And it's been a while, but I remember really liking

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Speaker 3: Scorsese Silence, so I would be very interested to see

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Speaker 3: Shinoda's take on it as well.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, I was looking into some of these titles. Again,

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Speaker 2: I have not seen any of them aside from Demon Pond,

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Speaker 2: but Cherry Trees and Evil Spirits are I think they're

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Speaker 2: generally considered to be either horror or at least whole

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Speaker 2: adjacent with Under the Blossoming Cherry Trees concerning a mountain

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Speaker 2: man who beheads his many wives to prove his love

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Speaker 2: to an alluring woman he meets in an enchanted forest.

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Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah, and I would I would absolutely watch a

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Speaker 3: Shnoda horror movie. I'm on board.

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Speaker 2: And Island of the Evil Spirits. I've seen it, I

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Speaker 2: say again, I've seen it classified as maybe horror adjacent.

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Speaker 2: But this one is this is that this is a

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Speaker 2: murder mystery, a detective story, a detective can duchy murder mystery.

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Speaker 2: And then yeah, many other works as well from Shnoda,

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Speaker 2: but Demon Pond certainly stands out as well. This is

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Speaker 2: this is I think often held up is one of

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Speaker 2: his best, and it's also one that is I think

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Speaker 2: it has been celebrated more recently via this four K restoration.

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Speaker 2: It's gotten to make the rounds. You know, a whole

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Speaker 2: new generations of people have been exposed to this picture. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so what. We'll have a lot more to say about

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Speaker 2: about his directorial as we proceed here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I will just say, as of the past

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Speaker 3: couple of days, my first exposure to his work, I'm

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Speaker 3: a new devoted fan.

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Speaker 2: Awesome now getting into the writing here. The original source

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Speaker 2: material here is an older kabuki play by Koka Izumi,

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Speaker 2: who lived eighteen seventy three through nineteen thirty nine. Japanese

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Speaker 2: pre war novelist, writer and kabuki playwright. His work is

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Speaker 2: often singled out for his romanticist supernatural tales that were

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Speaker 2: influenced by much earlier Edo period works. Multiple films have

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Speaker 2: been based on his writings a few during his lifetime,

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Speaker 2: you know, from the nineteen thirties and then Demon Pond

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Speaker 2: has been adapted more than once. I think most recently,

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Speaker 2: I think there's a two thousand and five adaptation by

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Speaker 2: Takeshi Mikhay, but I don't know. I don't know anything

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Speaker 2: about it. I love that director as well, but I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure he's varied enough in his outl but that

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Speaker 2: there's at least from my standpoint, there's no telling exactly

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Speaker 2: what that's like.

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Speaker 3: Is it a silly version or a torture version or what.

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Speaker 2: He Yeah, he contains multitudes. He's capable of so many

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Speaker 2: different things, all right. Then the writers here that have

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Speaker 2: adapted this older work, we have two names. There's so

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Speaker 2: Tomu Tamura. I couldn't find any dates in this individual,

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Speaker 2: but a Japanese screenwriter best known for The Ceremony in

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Speaker 2: seventy one, Boy in sixty nine and Death by Hanging

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Speaker 2: in sixty eight. And then also there's Horohiko Mimura nineteen

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Speaker 2: thirty seven through two thousand and eight, Japanese screenwriter also

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Speaker 2: known for sixty eight's I the Executioner.

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Speaker 3: Now, Rob, I expect that, like myself, you were impressed

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Speaker 3: with most of the cast. But I think the most

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Speaker 3: striking performance in the movie that we're gonna have to

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Speaker 3: talk about here is the double role played by Tamasaburo Bando.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, Bando plays both the wife of one of

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Speaker 2: our I don't know, expatriates of the the urban world, Yuri.

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Speaker 2: And then this actor also plays Princess Shirayuki, who is

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Speaker 2: of the supernatural realm as well.

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Speaker 3: Learn yeah, the dragon princess of the Demon Pond and

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Speaker 3: the enchanting possibly enchanted woman that Gakuin meets when he

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Speaker 3: first comes to town.

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Speaker 2: Right right, So, Bando was born nineteen fifty and remains

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Speaker 2: like pretty much a superstar of the kobuk world. And

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Speaker 2: of note, he is an on a Gata, and on

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Speaker 2: Agata is a male actor who specializes in female kobuki

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Speaker 2: stage roles. And this there's so I mean, there's so

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Speaker 2: much to say about about this. We're not even can

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Speaker 2: be able to really do more than dip our toes

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Speaker 2: in this topic. But basically, the Onagata approach originated around

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Speaker 2: sixteen twenty nine after female kabuki performers were banned by

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Speaker 2: the Tokugawa Shogunate, so male actors had to step in

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Speaker 2: and do all these roles and this and having male

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Speaker 2: actors step into play the female characters. This ended up

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Speaker 2: developing into its own highly refined performance art form, and Bando,

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Speaker 2: still active today as of this recording on stage at

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Speaker 2: any rate at the age of seventy five, has long

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Speaker 2: been considered the predominant living embodiment of Onagada, and at

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Speaker 2: the time this film was made. Was a superstar, like

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Speaker 2: we have to just like we don't tend to think

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Speaker 2: about this, I guess, you know, maybe in Western context

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Speaker 2: to imagine like somebody representing like a really old school

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Speaker 2: traditional performance style being a superstar as they are doing

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Speaker 2: modern cinema. But he was a huge name and he

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Speaker 2: had a lot of sway over the production.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm trying to think of a comparison. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if there really is one. I mean sort of

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Speaker 3: like if there was a superstar opera singer in American cinema,

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Speaker 3: but even I think that doesn't really capture it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The only thing I get like what

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Speaker 2: if you had a superstar boxer playing a boxer in

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Speaker 2: a movie. But then that's it's the difference. It's not

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Speaker 2: a performance art, not directly a performance art.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, and it doesn't have the interesting gender connotations here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, And we'll come back to the gender

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Speaker 2: comment to some of it here. But again, whole books

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Speaker 2: have been written about this, even just like the gender

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Speaker 2: studies aspect of this.

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Speaker 3: But I do just want to emphasize again that Bando

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Speaker 3: is a fascinating, spellbinding presence on camera here and you

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Speaker 3: can tell how much went into making the characters he

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Speaker 3: portrays just exude magic even when they're not speaking, and

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Speaker 3: the more so when they you know, they have these

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Speaker 3: strange monologues that are very different. They're not exactly the

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Speaker 3: same character that, like Yuri is a very apprehensive, reserved,

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Speaker 3: kind of haunted character, whereas the Dragon Princess is highly

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Speaker 3: expressive and emotional and regal fight, yeah, regal and fighting

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Speaker 3: against the constraints that are put on her. And so

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Speaker 3: there are these very different characters, but both of them

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Speaker 3: there is just enchantment pouring out of them, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of that comes down to Bando.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Dudley Andrew pointed out that many viewers outside of

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Speaker 2: Japan probably didn't and or don't realize that these two

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Speaker 2: key female roles are played by a male actor. And

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Speaker 2: I have to admit that on my first viewing that

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Speaker 2: you know, on the on the airplane a year or

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Speaker 2: so back, this was my case as well. I had

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Speaker 2: gotten into this film relatively cold, just knowing that, you know,

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Speaker 2: good things were thought about it. Yeah, And I had

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Speaker 2: no idea until I came back from my rewatch.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I knew before I went into the movie, So

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Speaker 3: I can't say what I would have known other wise.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean the characters. The characters are fully embodied.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, we'll have a lot to say about Bando,

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Speaker 2: and I'll come back to on a little more about

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Speaker 2: on Agada here in just a second, but just talking

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Speaker 2: about Bando's film career. His film roles include a supporting

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Speaker 2: role in Sijen Suzuki's ninety one film Yumiji, and the

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Speaker 2: role of none other than the writer is Zumi in

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Speaker 2: the nineteen eighty eight film Tokyo the Last Megalopolis. This

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Speaker 2: is a film adaptation of the popular Japanese fantasy epic

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Speaker 2: The Tale of the Imperial Capital by Hiroshi Atramata. This

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Speaker 2: is a movie that I haven't actually seen it, but

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Speaker 2: I've been aware of it for a long time, and

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of international fans might know of it,

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Speaker 2: especially due to a couple of factors. First of all,

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Speaker 2: hr Giger worked on a particular design for this picture,

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Speaker 2: so when you start pulling up Giger's film credentials and

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Speaker 2: credits run across this title and you may dig deeper. Also,

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Speaker 2: it makes use of a character that served as possible

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Speaker 2: partial inspiration for the Street Fighter video game character that

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Speaker 2: Western audiences know as m Bison.

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Speaker 3: Oh interesting, Yeah, but captain, yeah, that kind of dark

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Speaker 3: general character.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so well we may have to come back to

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Speaker 2: that if we ever watch a street Fighter film, we

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Speaker 2: might there's there is, of course.

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Speaker 3: A particularly good one, maybe on a Thursday.

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Speaker 2: So Bando began acting at a very young age seven,

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Speaker 2: I believe, as part of his recovery from polio, and

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Speaker 2: rose to become, in the words of Yuko Mashima, living

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Speaker 2: proof of the vitality of kabuki, which, which again is

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Speaker 2: a may sound like a very strong credential, but it

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Speaker 2: seems to match up with this guy's celebrity and then

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Speaker 2: just how how well everyone regards him in kabuki, especially

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Speaker 2: his father.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, my understanding is he didn't just do kobuki roles,

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Speaker 3: in did mainstream cinema roles as well.

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Speaker 2: Right, But I'm to understand that his father had forbidden

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Speaker 2: him from acting in any thing besides kabuki, and it

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Speaker 2: was only after his father's death. I'm to understand that

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Speaker 2: Banda really began to break out into other forms of theater,

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Speaker 2: other types of roles, including cinematic performances. But he would

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Speaker 2: break out and portray even male characters, such as in

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Speaker 2: the ninety four film Nostagia, in which he plays both

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Speaker 2: a male and a female character. So I mentioned that

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Speaker 2: the Bando was a huge star at this point, but

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Speaker 2: also he'd never really done film before, so working for

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Speaker 2: the first time here with extended close up shots, which

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Speaker 2: of course don't really exist in live theater or certainly

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Speaker 2: in the traditional context of theater, and so he was

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Speaker 2: very particular about the way his face looked and requested

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Speaker 2: a number of extra takes on things to get everything

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Speaker 2: where he wanted it to get. So I think that

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Speaker 2: that added to some of the complexity of the shots.

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Speaker 3: But well, sometimes I think people might not realize this

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Speaker 3: if you don't have experience acting, but acting for the

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Speaker 3: stage and acting for film are actually quite different art

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Speaker 3: forms because there's so much, you know, the camera being closer.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of subtlety that can be captured on

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Speaker 3: film that doesn't really come across on stage. So this

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Speaker 3: is an oversimplification, but in a lot of ways, stage

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Speaker 3: performances have to be bigger, they have to be less subtle,

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Speaker 3: they have to be louder. Your movements have to be

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Speaker 3: you know, more projected to you know, reach people at

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Speaker 3: a distance. And yeah, film performances bring in these new

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Speaker 3: levels of kind of quiet variation and subtlety that can't

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Speaker 3: be seen from the distance of an audience in a theater,

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Speaker 3: and so they're different art forms to master. The lots

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Speaker 3: of actors do both.

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Speaker 2: Of course. Now I want to come back to the

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Speaker 2: Onagada tradition for just a second.

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Speaker 3: Here.

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Speaker 2: There are, of course, traditions of cross gender acting spread

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Speaker 2: across various cultures and throughout time. I go as so

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Speaker 2: far as to say it's an essential part of human

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Speaker 2: performance and storytelling, but Onagata is particularly fascinating in its depth.

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Speaker 2: I've read that there's like a particular like feminine energy

433
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 2: that one has to bring into your daily life according

434
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 2: to the philosophy of the Onagata way. And so naturally

435
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 2: there's a lot to unload here on a gender studies level,

436
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 2: because on one side you have the embracing of the

437
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 2: feminine energy by male identifying performers to better perform these roles.

438
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 2: And then there's the historic through contemporary exclusion of females

439
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 2: from mainstream, mainstream traditional kabuki. So again, whole books have

440
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 2: been written on this subject, and I did see one

441
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 2: that looked particularly fascinating if anyone out there wants a

442
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 2: deeper dig into all of this, and it is Onagata

443
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 2: a Labyrinth of gendering in Kabuki theater by Maki Isaka

444
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 2: looks looks like a great book. I was reading just

445
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 2: a little bit of it, but didn't have time to

446
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 2: really go deep. Yeah, and so again Deadly andrew and

447
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 2: others have pointed out you could go into this film

448
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 2: and not know anything about the only god of tradition

449
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 2: and you would be perfectly entertained, and there would be

450
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 2: plenty of other things to think about. But Deudlely Andrews

451
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,959
Speaker 2: stresses that you know, we we absolutely shouldn't overlook a

452
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 2: pretty groundbreaking kiss in the film between the character of

453
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: Yuri and the character of Akira ther her husband in

454
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: the film. So this is this is essentially, you know,

455
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 2: outside of the context of the of the film, this

456
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 2: is a same sex kiss, not the first same sex

457
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: kiss in Japanese cinema, but still a pretty important one

458
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 2: and would have been, you know, groundbreaking for the time.

459
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 3: This comes at a really pivotal moment in the film too,

460
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 3: because the character you called him Accura. I've always said

461
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 3: that name Akira. I don't know if I've been saying

462
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 3: it wrong.

463
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: I have also always said Akira is certainly thinking about

464
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 2: the anime picture Akira and Akira Krasawa and so forth.

465
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 2: Dudley Andrew was saying Akera, and I kept thinking I

466
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 2: was hearing Akera in the Japanese language of the film,

467
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 2: so I could be wrong. I may jump back into

468
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: saying Akira here as well out of habit.

469
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 3: If nothing else, well, I apologize if I'm saying it wrong.

470
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 3: Akira is going to be easier for me to say

471
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 3: because I've always said it that way, saying I will

472
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 3: probably hope the character the character Akira in this scene,

473
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 3: this is in the moment when so it happens in

474
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 3: a flashback, and it's in the moment when he is

475
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 3: explaining to his long lost friend Gaku and explaining how

476
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 3: he fell in love with the character Yuri, who gok

477
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 3: going up to this point has been very skeptical of,

478
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 3: and so it's kind of the moment where they get

479
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 3: over this disagreement about Yuri and Gacko and is kind

480
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 3: of brought over to a curras side and understands how

481
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 3: he loves her, and this kiss is like what cements

482
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 3: it in the flashback through which the story is told.

483
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 3: So it's a pivotal, dramatic moment and it's very important

484
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 3: in the film, and it's powerful when it happens.

485
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a real kiss. I was afraid on

486
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 2: my rewatch, knowing about the gender roles. I was afraid

487
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 2: they were gonna fudge it, you know. But it's a

488
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 2: legitimate kiss. Yeah, all right. Well, speaking of the character Akira,

489
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 2: Akira Hagawara is played by Go Kato, who lived nineteen

490
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: thirty eight through twenty eighteen, Japanese actor whose other credits

491
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 2: include sixty seven Samurai Rebellion and nineteen seventy two's Lone

492
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: Wolf and Cub Baby cart Ta Haites. This is the

493
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 2: third Lone Wolf in Cub movie in which he plays

494
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: a Ronan character that I think is the central antagonist

495
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: or an important antagonist in the picture. Okay, this is

496
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: not one of the Lone Wolf and Cub movies that

497
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 2: was edited together to make Shogun Assassin, which we previously

498
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 2: watched on House Cinema. This would be the yeah, the

499
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: third one after those two. Okay, but yeah, anyway, Kato

500
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: heir Award winning Japanese actor who rose to fame in

501
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 2: Samurai Rebellion sixty seven opposite Toshiro Mafuni. So he played

502
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: Mafuni's character's son, and his other credits include sixty five

503
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 2: Sort of the Beast, The Long Darkness in seventy two

504
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: Let's See, and Death of a Tea Master in eighty nine,

505
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: active until his passing. And he had a long TV

506
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 2: career as well. All right, and then we have Gakawin,

507
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: and Gokowin is really he's really our structural protagonist, even

508
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: though he doesn't have top billing here.

509
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, the movie becomes less about him as it goes on,

510
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 3: but certainly for the first third were just with him.

511
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And he is played by Sutomu Yamazaki, Award

512
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: winning Japanese actor whose credits include multiple Kurosawa films, most

513
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: notably sixty five's Redbeard in eighties Kaigamusha. Yeah, let's see,

514
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: those are some of our main characters. We're not gonna

515
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: be able to list everyone here, and certainly there are

516
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: a lot of great crab and fish actors, yes, and

517
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 2: you know, you know we can't. We can't list everybody.

518
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: There is a priest character. Priest Shikami and he's played

519
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 2: by Koji Nanbara, who of nineteen twenty seven through two

520
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 2: thousand and one. He stood out to me because Japanese

521
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 2: actor who played a crucial role in the ground breaking

522
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven sage in Suzuki Assassin film Branded to Kill.

523
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: That's a big one. That's one that I've considered doing

524
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: for weird house cinema.

525
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 3: Is this one? This is the Shinto priest. The one,

526
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 3: yeah is he's sort of one of the ones most

527
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 3: on board with the diet member. Is a plot to

528
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 3: do a human sacrifice.

529
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's yeah, he alongside yea, the diet member. Yeah.

530
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 2: There's a whole host of human characters in the village

531
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 2: and then a whole host of supernatural characters in the

532
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: underwater realm. And yeah, everybody's great in their role. Be

533
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: it something that is in The human characters tend to

534
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 2: be a lot more believable and naturalistic, and of course

535
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: the spirit characters are ranged from being somber and theatrical

536
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 2: to just like outright goofy you know, so, yeah, it

537
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: varies greatly.

538
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, also, I think the moral coding of the

539
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 3: different character groups is interesting because you might think based

540
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 3: on the structure that the Dragon Princess is like the

541
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 3: villain of the film. You know, she's the great evil

542
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 3: baddie to overcome, but not really, She's somewhere in between.

543
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 3: She's just a complex character with her own desires that

544
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 3: is neither really good nor bad. She just wants something

545
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 3: that's kind of oblique to her involvement with humans and

546
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 3: her responsibilities to them. I would say, if the movie

547
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: has a real human villain, it is the bloodthirsty diet member.

548
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, let's skip ahead behind the

549
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: camera for just a couple of credits here. This is

550
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: definitely a visual effects picture, and there's actually a feature

551
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: rite about the visual effects on the Criterion collection disc.

552
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: I ended up not really diving into that one because,

553
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: weirdly enough, despite this being a film with great special effects,

554
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: I feel like the special effects are almost the least

555
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 2: notable part about it. There's so much else to talk about. Yeah,

556
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: but they're really well done. And it's a high budget affair.

557
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, some great other world underwater sets where you

558
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 3: can't even identify exactly what this is supposed to be.

559
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: Are they in a cave under the pond? What is it?

560
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 2: I don't know, and then we have that great water

561
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: spout laid in the picture. You know, we'll come back

562
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: to that. But the visual effects are credited to Minora Nakano,

563
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: who of nineteen thirty nine through twenty twenty one. Lots

564
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: of great Japanese SI special effects credits for this guy,

565
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: beginning with mathra Versus Godzilla in sixty four. Oh, okay,

566
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 2: which we've talked about. That's one of our selections.

567
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 3: Clearly, there is a lot of great miniature work in

568
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: this so you can see the interface with giant monster movies.

569
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think particularly he did optical effects

570
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 2: in animations in mathra Versus Godzilla, and then his subsequent

571
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: films include the nineteen seventy four Thai co production Hanaman

572
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: versus seven Ultraman, which we also watched perfect yep. Seventy

573
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: seven is the Last Dinosaur. Seventy eight's the Bermuda Depths. Oh,

574
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 2: that's one we've talked that we've talked maybe talked about it.

575
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 3: It's not good, it's kind of jawsy, but it's I

576
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 3: think that's the one with a killer sea turtle.

577
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Is that the one with Carl weathers? Oh?

578
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 3: Wait, that sounds right, Okay, maybe we'll put a question

579
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 3: mark wearing very very short short.

580
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: And then oh, this guy also worked on seventy eight's

581
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 2: Message from Space, which was another early Weird House Cinema selection,

582
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: and then after that he did Demon Pond and his

583
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: other credits include eighty eight's Doomed Megalopolis. The last one

584
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: Megalopolis Akira kurosaw was Dreams in nineteen ninety, which we

585
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 2: also covered.

586
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: On Weird House.

587
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, the Cat in nineteen ninety one, and then

588
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 2: a film from ninety seven titled Cat's Eye that has

589
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 2: no relation to the Stephen King adapticians Japanese film.

590
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 3: So completely without our knowledge, we have been running a

591
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 3: Minoro Nakano fan podcast. Yeah, like we're just doing his

592
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 3: whole catalog.

593
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all those films have great special effects, all right.

594
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: Then finally, this film famously features a score by he

595
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: Saw Tomita, who lived nineteen thirty two through twenty sixteen.

596
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: This is actually our second to meta score. We previously

597
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 2: discussed him in our episode on the sixty eight film

598
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: Black Lizard, which is a great, beautiful weird picture, but

599
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 2: the music on that one is on the for the

600
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 2: most part, I think non electronic and as we discussed,

601
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 2: like the story goes concerning Tamita, is that around nineteen

602
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: sixty eight or shortly thereafter, he heard the Windy Carlos

603
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 2: album Switched on Bach And is.

604
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 3: This the one famously featured in Clockwork Orange or related

605
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 3: to it? Well, related to it, yeah, because of the

606
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 3: Beethoven in that.

607
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and with the Moge synthesizer work. So the story

608
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 2: goes that to me, to heard this work and almost

609
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: immediately flies to the US to bring a Moge synthesizer

610
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: back with him. I don't know how immediate it is,

611
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 2: but like in my mind of imagining, he hears the

612
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: album and just head straight to the airport. Yeah, doesn't pack,

613
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: just brings back the synth, but love it. However it

614
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,720
Speaker 2: actually went down. Yeah, Tomita gets into it and becomes

615
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 2: a pioneer in his own right of electronic music and

616
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: space music. Like I've read that with tomto Like one

617
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 2: of the things is that he he kind of like

618
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 2: Wendy Carlos is a legend and and and her work

619
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 2: is you know, absolutely undeniable, but like to meet is

620
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 2: one of those who like kind of takes it then

621
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: and goes to like another level with it as well,

622
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: like ends up going into this spaceier zone, like certainly

623
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: doing his his spin on the classics as well, but

624
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 2: then finding this like sort of sci fi space zone

625
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: in which to explore as well.

626
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 3: And you get both in Demon Pond. You get electronic

627
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,760
Speaker 3: adaptations of classical symphonic works and then you also get

628
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 3: just weird wacky space music.

629
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it gets funny at times. There's a couple

630
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 2: there are a couple of moments where the music is

631
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 2: really goofy, in that moge synth goofy way. Like. There

632
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 2: are a number of like electronic pioneers would get into

633
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 2: this sound a little bit, and sometimes I don't know,

634
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,399
Speaker 2: for my own part, it's a little harder to listen

635
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: to those, because I, you know, I just want to

636
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 2: hear like the really like serene samples of early synth work.

637
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 2: But early synth work can get really goofy as well,

638
00:35:58,360 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 2: and it's it's great in its own way.

639
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 3: There were this is gonna sound like a horrible comparison,

640
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 3: and I don't mean it this way because I love

641
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 3: to meet us score here. But there were a couple

642
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 3: of parts in the movie where the like the funny

643
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 3: music when the goblins were doing their antics. Reminded me

644
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 3: of the synth the synth score in the Star Wars

645
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 3: Holiday Special when you've got you know, when there's like

646
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 3: I think it's acrobatics or something are happening, that kind

647
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: of thing. There was a bit of that.

648
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: The synth world is going to have to come back

649
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: to that sound, I think, And then you know, ten

650
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 2: years down the road, that's all anybody's going to be

651
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 2: talking about.

652
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 3: I can't wait.

653
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 2: But yeah, the Jen Alpha style, but to me of course,

654
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 2: and goes on to become a legend in his own right,

655
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: known for such works as Let's See Electronics, Electric Samurai,

656
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 2: Switched on Rock, seventy six is the Planets, and seventy

657
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 2: eight's Cosmos You'll.

658
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 3: Find the Planets. Sorry, is that Holst? Do you know?

659
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 2: I'm not sure off the top of my head. Maybe

660
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 2: I'd have to look up that work. Okay, But because

661
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: he again, he did do a certain amount of taking

662
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: older works and then giving them the synth treatment, and

663
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 2: you'll find loads of his work wherever you get your music.

664
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: I don't think this particular score has ever received proper release. However,

665
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 2: I was looking around for it. It looks like there's

666
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: there's some sort of collaboration that he did with Bando

667
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: around seventy eight, but I don't think it's direct. It's

668
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 2: not the score, it's not the soundtrack or anything, but

669
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: they should put it out. I'd love to listen to this. Yeah, yeah,

670
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: so yeah again. This score is great. It has these

671
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: spacier segments, but then he also makes use of contemporary

672
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 2: European motifs from music from the period the film takes

673
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 2: place in, so in particular Mazorski and WSA music. You'll

674
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: hear that multiple times.

675
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 3: The Mussorgski that's going to be Night on Bald Mountain.

676
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 3: So that comes in in fact in a particularly hilarious

677
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 3: musical moment where we're watching some of the goblins go

678
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 3: about their business and we're first getting the comedic dup

679
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 3: to dupe music and then for it with no warning,

680
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 3: hard shift into electronic Night on Bald Mountain.

681
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 2: It's great. I would totally listen to most of the

682
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 2: score if it was released properly, but you know, when

683
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 2: in the context of the film, it's a pretty great

684
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: way to listen to it as well, because then you

685
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 2: get the sonic experience and these fabulous.

686
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 3: Visuals Another thing I want to point out about to

687
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 3: me to score that's so wonderful in this movie is

688
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 3: that it sounds like the visual and conceptual themes. The

689
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 3: movie is about a demon pond and a creature that

690
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 3: in many ways embodies water. Water is a core texture

691
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 3: of the film. About the lack of water or an

692
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 3: excess of water is so much of what the story

693
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,439
Speaker 3: is about. And the music sounds like like water. There

694
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 3: are these musical motifs that sound like whirlpools that have

695
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 3: a swirling quality. There are musical motifs that sound like

696
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 3: bubbles rising through water. It's amazing how watery the sound is.

697
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then obviously there is the added element of

698
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: this being like the bleeding edge of modern technological music

699
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 2: combined with these elements of much more deeply rooted performance tradition.

700
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, are you ready to talk about the plot?

701
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's board the train, let's walk the bridge, let's

702
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 2: do it.

703
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 3: Okay, And warning once again, folks, this we're going to

704
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 3: talk about the plot in a lot of detail. So

705
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 3: if you want to go in without spoilers, go without.

706
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 3: You know, the spoilers we've already done. Go now, go go,

707
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 3: you come back later. So we begin with a text

708
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 3: legend and this bubbling effervescent electronic score, and the text

709
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 3: in translation reads on the border between Fukui and Gifu,

710
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 3: there is a pond called Demon pond. According to an

711
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 3: ancient legend, a dragon dwells at the bottom of this pond.

712
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 3: And then we open on a scene which is this

713
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 3: large pond surrounded by forested mountain sides with lush green

714
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 3: trees all around, and the slopes on either side framing

715
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 3: this u shaped horizon that shows just the sky beyond.

716
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 3: And then on the bank on the nearest side of

717
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 3: the pond, there is a single lone architectural feature. It's

718
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,320
Speaker 3: a Japanese tory e. You've probably seen these at Shinto

719
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 3: shrines and other places in Japan. This is a little

720
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 3: structure that looks like a doorway leading from nothing to nothing.

721
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 3: It's made of two vertical posts a few feet apart,

722
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 3: and then a couple of cross posts joining at the top.

723
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 3: And these can be simple like this one is, or

724
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 3: it can be more complex with kind of a flaring

725
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,919
Speaker 3: of the posts or shingles or other decorations. But it's

726
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 3: like a doorway standing in the middle of nature and

727
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 3: these are symbolic gateways that indicate the transition from a

728
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 3: mundane space to a sacred space.

729
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 2: And that's pretty much what this whole first for opening

730
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: moments of this film is about where we're venturing into

731
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: the sacred.

732
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 3: So the text on screen continues, it says the time

733
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 3: was the summer of nineteen thirteen, and then we get

734
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 3: a title and the credits come in, and the music

735
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 3: swells and becomes really huge and regal, with these heavy

736
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 3: hollow bells ringing and a climbing theme that sounds like

737
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 3: voices and adulation. So it's a very powerful musical moment

738
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 3: at the beginning. But the action resumes in a train car.

739
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 3: We see passengers watching out the windows as the train

740
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 3: rolls through the country, and there is a bespectacled man

741
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,919
Speaker 3: in a linen suit and a hat that looks sort

742
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 3: of like a pith helmet. It's got a very Safari

743
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 3: looking hat, and he is closely inspecting a topographic map

744
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 3: with a magnifying glass. He kind of zooms in on

745
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 3: a place on the map that shows a body of

746
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 3: water called Demon Pond, and then later we see him

747
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 3: looking through a reference book of drawings of various plant species.

748
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 3: So the feeling we get about this guy is that

749
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 3: he's a man of the sciences and he's interested in

750
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 3: plant life.

751
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a naturalist.

752
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 3: So we will learn that this man is named gaku

753
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 3: and Yamasawa. He is a school teacher, an amateur botanist,

754
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 3: or maybe a professional botanist, I'm not quite sure. A

755
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 3: school teacher and a botanist from the big city. He's

756
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 3: out rambling in the countryside for his summer vacation. At

757
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 3: a remote stop, he gets off the train with this

758
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 3: big backpack and he begins hiking further up into the

759
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 3: mountains on a footpath. There's this feeling of leaving civilization

760
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 3: further and further behind. This is actually a something I

761
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 3: really associate with Japanese fantastical films in general, kind of

762
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 3: step wise retreat from the world of the city and modernity,

763
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 3: where you see multiple stages of becoming less and less

764
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 3: connected to the city world, with like first you're on

765
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 3: the train, then you get off the train, and then

766
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 3: you go into a more isolated place, and then from there,

767
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 3: like the first place he goes to on this footpath

768
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 3: is this big rope bridge spanning a ravine, This long

769
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 3: bouncy rope bridge and we see him walking over it

770
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 3: and see the water rushing below. But then after this

771
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 3: there's even less kind of human infrastructure, Like he emerges

772
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 3: into this swamp or marsh and he's looking at specimens

773
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 3: under a microscope, and then we see him crossing some

774
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 3: kind of desert with this scrubby vegetation and parched white earth,

775
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 3: with these mirages of heat rising from the ground. So

776
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 3: it's like at each step he's just getting more and

777
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 3: more into a different world.

778
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

779
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 3: There's a part in the middle of when he's in

780
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 3: the desert here where he drains the last of the

781
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 3: water from his canteen and he happens to notice nearby

782
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 3: a porcelain baby doll discarded and lying on the ground.

783
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 3: And so he hikes on from this desert into another

784
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 3: forested highland and eventually comes to a mountain village that

785
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 3: seems almost as dry as the desert below. There's vegetation

786
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 3: all around, but there's a kind of camera filter that

787
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 3: creates a CPA tone, so everything looks dead. All the

788
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 3: vegetation is dead and dry, so the plants are desiccated,

789
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 3: and the field crops or these gray husks, and at

790
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 3: one point Goaquin collapses on the road, but he manages

791
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 3: to pick himself up and keep going. And there are weird,

792
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 3: eerie soundscapes here, like in one place extremely loud bugs

793
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 3: like cicadas screaming, and in another place a sound. It's

794
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 3: uncanny because there is a sound like howling wind, but

795
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 3: we see on the screen that nothing is moving like

796
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 3: visually the air looks still. And in this howling but

797
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 3: still place, Gokuin encounters a lone cow just wandering and

798
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,919
Speaker 3: lowing on the road. It seems almost like a cow

799
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 3: that is suffering or in pain, maybe for need of water.

800
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 3: But it's very disconcerting atmosphere. And then he wanders further

801
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 3: into the village. The whole time he's there he sees

802
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 3: no one the houses. All around there are houses, but

803
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,720
Speaker 3: nobody's coming in and out of them, and the streets

804
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,280
Speaker 3: are empty. Eventually he finds a well and he runs

805
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 3: to the well with excitement. He's eager for water. But

806
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 3: when he gets there, he drops a rock in waiting

807
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 3: to hear the splash, and there is none, as just

808
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 3: a dry clack when it hits the bottom. So disappointed,

809
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 3: he walks further into the village past a banner that

810
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,760
Speaker 3: says prayer for rain, until finally he crosses paths with people.

811
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,479
Speaker 3: The people seem to be in a funeral procession. They're

812
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 3: marching past in a column, wearing kimono with faces painted white,

813
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 3: and they're holding huge, tall bouquets of fake flowers and

814
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 3: other plants I think made out of paper or some

815
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 3: of the craft. And with them is a two wheeled

816
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 3: cart bearing an open coffin with a dead man inside,

817
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 3: surrounded by a kind of silver tinsel looking substance. And

818
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 3: the procession stops briefly when a bon show bell sounds

819
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 3: from a perch on a hill above the rest of

820
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 3: the village, and we get a kind of cutaway. We

821
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 3: see the belfry up above the village. It's you know,

822
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,879
Speaker 3: it's within visual distance, but it's a good ways up

823
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 3: and somebody, an old man, appears to be ringing the

824
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 3: bell with this big log that's on a rope, and

825
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 3: Gakuin checks his pocket watch it is six o'clock. And

826
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 3: then the procession moves on and here the wind begins

827
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 3: to blow and it kicks up dust. They get stuck

828
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 3: in Gakuwin's eyes, so he's holding a handkerchief to his

829
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,280
Speaker 3: face and he runs inside a nearby building for shelter.

830
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 3: Once inside the building, he sees a group of men

831
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 3: sitting in a circle talking and they're talking about the bell.

832
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 3: One is like, not that bell again, there's no need

833
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 3: to ring it, and then another one says, but the

834
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 3: demon pond will overflow, a flood will come, and then

835
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 3: another says that's just superstition, but whether it's true or not,

836
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 3: at this point of flood would be welcome. And then

837
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 3: the people in the house finally notice Gochowin in their

838
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 3: entry way. He explains that he's got dust in his

839
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 3: eye and he asks for water to wash it out,

840
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 3: and the men are like, what you want water? Are

841
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 3: you kidding? And then a woman comes out from the

842
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 3: other room and kindly offers to help him. She's like, here,

843
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 3: let me help you. And her solution is she offers

844
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 3: to express breast milk into his eyes. Yes, and Gogowin

845
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 3: is disturbed. He tries to be polite like he thanks her,

846
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 3: but he quickly leaves. So something has gone horribly wrong

847
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 3: at this village related to water.

848
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is such an awkward and largely uneerrotic

849
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 2: interaction here, Like, clearly Gagawin is just completely thrown off

850
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: guard here.

851
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, So he leaves the village and wanders into the

852
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 3: woods further up the mountain side. He's still holding the

853
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 3: handkerchief to his eye. But these woods do not appear

854
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 3: parched like the village below. Here, it's shady green under

855
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 3: the tree canopy, and there are all these ferns and

856
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 3: small plants on the forest floor. And then Gakawin hears

857
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 3: the sound of trickling water, so he hunts it down

858
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 3: and he finds a little stream, washes his face, removes

859
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 3: the dust from his eye, fills his canteen, and takes

860
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 3: a drink, and we see him kind of stand up

861
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 3: and his face is just covered in water. He's like

862
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,320
Speaker 3: he has been infused with essence of wetness and feels

863
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 3: very revived. So if it's this green just up the

864
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,280
Speaker 3: hill from the village, why is the village so parched.

865
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 2: It's a mystery one we'll have to to investigate.

866
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 3: So he feels very revived, and he ventures further up

867
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 3: the mountain as the sun is setting, and he comes

868
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 3: across a little hut and a shrine. This is the

869
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 3: house where somebody was ringing the bon schow bell earlier

870
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 3: at six o'clock when he saw the funeral. So there's

871
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 3: the belfry there on the side, and the area around

872
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 3: this little house is very wet. There's like a small

873
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,240
Speaker 3: pond and a trickling brook with lush water grasses all around.

874
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 3: So the drought has not reached this place that's just

875
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 3: a little bit away from the rest of the village.

876
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 2: And this is definitely a scene where we get an

877
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 2: overwhelming sense of that sunset, twilight gloaming vibe. And in fact,

878
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 2: at this point I also actually felt a little bit

879
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 2: of anxiety because this reminded me very strongly of the

880
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 2: sky and the lighting in house in that scene where

881
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 2: where the head comes up from the well. So I

882
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 2: was like, oh, man, something weird is about to happen,

883
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 2: and something is weird is about to happen in some ways,

884
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 2: but not on the level of cackling bottom biting head

885
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 2: from the bottom of the well.

886
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, the

887
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 3: light becomes tremendously orange and it's the silhouette of the

888
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 3: mountain is ominous. But anyway, so behind the house on

889
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 3: the hill there's a woman kneeling in the grass at

890
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 3: the water's edge. I think she's washing produce or washing food,

891
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 3: and she begins speaking to Gacawan without turning around. She

892
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 3: tells him the bell he heard ringing earlier is rung

893
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 3: only three times a day, at dawn, at dusk, and

894
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 3: late at night, and it may not be struck any

895
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 3: other time. She says, if you are walking by, please

896
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 3: do not strike it with that stick in fun, do

897
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 3: not be mischievous. So it's interesting she knows he has

898
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 3: a stick, even though she has not turned around to

899
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 3: look at him. And there's a slow zoom on Gakawan.

900
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 3: Very quiet, eerie music starts to play. He becomes curious,

901
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 3: like there's drought in the village below, but up here

902
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 3: at the house there's plenty of water, and he asks

903
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 3: the woman about this, and she explains that it gushes

904
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 3: from a spring. And then they have this moment where

905
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 3: they talk about how when the water, when the flowing

906
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,120
Speaker 3: water hits a rock, it tinkles, and the way they

907
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 3: say it, the way they say it in Japanese has

908
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,919
Speaker 3: a little automatopoia. They say like it's ding ding ding ding,

909
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,879
Speaker 3: like a ringing bell or like a harp, and then

910
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 3: they talk about how the valley that they're in I

911
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 3: think is the valley that plays a harp or the

912
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 3: valley of harp music. But then she goes on to

913
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,720
Speaker 3: explain that the real source of the water that's around

914
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 3: their house, that's coming out of the spring is Demon Pond.

915
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,919
Speaker 3: The water comes from Demon Pond, and Gakuwin takes interest here.

916
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 3: He tells her that he saw Demon Pond on the

917
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 3: map and he came here in part because he wanted

918
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 3: to see it. And she tells him that there is

919
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 3: a legend that a dragon sleeps at the bottom of

920
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 3: the pond. Quote it carries poison. The villagers say that fearfully.

921
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 3: The rocks change color in the water to purple and

922
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 3: green rouge granules seen at times. It's very beautiful. The

923
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 3: villagers say the dragon's scales have been shed. They say

924
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 3: it is fishy, dirty, uncanny, and that the water is poisoned.

925
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 3: I like the ambiguity of the description here. I don't

926
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 3: know exactly what's causal from one statement to the next,

927
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 3: but it's a little bit hair raising, especially since he

928
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 3: already drank the water. He becomes very concerned. He's like, well,

929
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 3: I drank the water from the stream, I washed my

930
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 3: eyes in. It is something going to happen to me.

931
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 2: I do love the idea of the dragon scales. The

932
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 2: shed scales are in the water. Yeah.

933
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:27,399
Speaker 3: Yeah. And the woman, you know, he's concerned, but she says,

934
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 3: you know, the villagers are suspicious, but we drink the water,

935
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,240
Speaker 3: meaning her and the people who live at this house.

936
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 3: We haven't met anybody else there yet, but we drink

937
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 3: the water and nothing happens to us. So that makes

938
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 3: the villager suspicious of them, Like, you know, if the

939
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 3: water is poisoned, but they drink it and they're fine.

940
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 3: Maybe they're witches or something. That's the implication. And Gakuin

941
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 3: drops his compass into the water by accident. The woman

942
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 3: retrieves it for him, and then finally, here we get

943
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 3: a revelation of the woman's face as she uncovers her

944
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,879
Speaker 3: hair turns to look at Gakawin. This is the woman

945
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 3: played by Tamasaburobando, and the film suggests that something strange

946
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 3: is happening. We don't again, it's not clear exactly what

947
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 3: it is, but upon seeing this woman, Goquin is shaken

948
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 3: and the music is again bubbling swirling, effervescent and magical,

949
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 3: and this is one of the parts where Tomita really

950
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 3: manages to make the music sound like water. So they

951
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 3: have this strange, enchanted form of eye contact, and Gakowin

952
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 3: asks if he can stay for a cup of tea.

953
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,280
Speaker 3: The woman says yes, she's trying to be a good host,

954
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,360
Speaker 3: and so she goes inside the house. And then Gakawin

955
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 3: looks down at the compass of his that fell into

956
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,280
Speaker 3: the water, and it's spinning all around like in Bermuda

957
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 3: Triangle movies. I bet there's a scene like this in

958
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 3: the Bermuda depths.

959
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all but smoking here.

960
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. So inside, the woman who we learn is named Yuri,

961
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 3: talks with her husband Akira or Akira, the handsome young

962
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 3: man with silver hair, and Akira asks Yuri to ask

963
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 3: the traveler if he has a good story to tell,

964
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 3: and we see that Akira is working over a text

965
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 3: called Collection of Old Legends, so this is a narrative guy.

966
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 3: He's looking for legends. All through these scenes, Rob, I

967
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 3: wonder what you think about this. I feel like there

968
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 3: is consistently something strange about Uri, not something bad, like

969
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 3: she is portrayed as polite and a good host. There's

970
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 3: nothing nefarious about her, but there is an uncanny distance

971
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 3: and hesitation in her behavior, like she is out of

972
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 3: place or living in the wrong world, but also with

973
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 3: these dimensions of anxiety, like she's living in fear of

974
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 3: something that cannot be spoken of. Do you know what

975
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 3: I'm saying here?

976
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that's a good point. This is also

977
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,919
Speaker 2: the scene though, is there's a lot to unpack here

978
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 2: because she's also behaving and she's she's treating a wanderer

979
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 2: who has come up and is asking for aid, and

980
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 2: so like she's navigating certain social norms here. But then

981
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 2: we quickly see that there is the white haired gentleman

982
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 2: is is remaining hidden, and she's somehow navigating this as well.

983
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 2: So yeah, all of these elements make for a scene

984
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 2: that is on one level, like very straightforward, like a

985
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 2: wanderer is being greeted with tea and then later some fruit,

986
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 2: But then there's also something else going on, perhaps on

987
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 2: multiple levels.

988
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, so she's she is displaying kindness and hospitality,

989
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 3: but there's also this level of apprehension. Yeah yeah, yeah,

990
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,720
Speaker 3: So Gakuwin sits with your EA outside on the veranda

991
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 3: and they have tea and chilled pairs while they talk.

992
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, we see him eat one, but it later sounds

993
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:54,280
Speaker 2: like maybe he ate like six pairs.

994
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like maybe he's had a lot of

995
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 3: fair Also, Gaquin is a skilled peeler of pairs. Do

996
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 3: you see he takes the entire skin off in the

997
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 3: one the one long strip? Yeah.

998
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:06,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been trying to lick my apples that way

999
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,760
Speaker 2: these days, but I still end up making a mess

1000
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 2: that I guess I haven't refined it.

1001
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 3: I like to eat the apple peels. I'm a big

1002
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 3: peel fan.

1003
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, well I've been Yeah, I still eat

1004
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 2: the peels, but I've been trying to do the whole.

1005
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 2: Like I'm gonna sit here and like use a knife

1006
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 2: to like cut off little slivers of the apple and

1007
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 2: eat it.

1008
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 3: Oh I do do that. Yeah, I'm not a bite

1009
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:28,240
Speaker 3: into the apple person. I like to cut off pieces.

1010
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've largely been a bite into the apple person.

1011
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:32,760
Speaker 2: But then sometimes like I'm ot at the computer I'm working,

1012
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 2: I'm biting into apple, sprays apple juice on the screen.

1013
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 2: I gotta clean that up. But now I'm trying to

1014
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 2: cut the apple and I'm still slinging juice around the room.

1015
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 2: So I don't know. I've got to work on my form.

1016
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 3: So actually what I'm doing recently is we've gotten my

1017
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 3: daughter likes apple, but only the inside doesn't want the peels.

1018
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 3: So I'm trying to cut it in a way that

1019
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 3: creates peel pieces and non peel pieces and equal measures

1020
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 3: so that I can, you know, do one and then

1021
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 3: the other and I eat the peel pieces.

1022
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 2: As she's seen one of those the apple peelers, where

1023
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:03,319
Speaker 2: you like lock it into the device, and.

1024
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 3: We've actually got one of those, we just haven't used it.

1025
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 3: It's like it takes some setting up.

1026
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 2: I remember from the past. It only makes sense if

1027
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,359
Speaker 2: you're doing like large scale apple peeling for some sort

1028
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 2: of a culinary project.

1029
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 3: Wow, this has been peel talk, Yeah, Robin Joe. So

1030
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 3: back to the movie. So we learned that we learned

1031
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 3: from the conversation between Gacawin and Uri that this house

1032
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 3: used to be a temple storehouse, but the temple burned

1033
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 3: down long ago, and that's why there is a sacred

1034
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 3: bell here because it used to be a temple. I

1035
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 3: feel like this detail it's only mentioned in Passing and

1036
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 3: doesn't come up again. There's something about the idea of

1037
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 3: the temple burning down long ago and this Belfrey being

1038
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 3: a remnant that kind of ties in with themes that

1039
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 3: will become more important later on about what really is tradition,

1040
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 3: what types of tradition are worth honoring, and you know,

1041
00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 3: do we does do the obligations of the past still

1042
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 3: linger and things like that. But again, uh, Gakuin is thankful.

1043
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 3: He tries to be a good, you know, a good

1044
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 3: guest and tries to pay for the hospitality. At one

1045
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 3: point he says something about this being a tea house.

1046
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 3: So I don't know if he if there is confusion

1047
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 3: about whether this is just somebody's house that he's being

1048
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 3: offered tea at, or if it is a tea house

1049
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 3: that serves customers.

1050
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he says something of the effective like, oh,

1051
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,439
Speaker 2: it's a temple. I knew it wasn't just a tea

1052
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 2: house or something.

1053
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, maybe that's what it was. Yeah, But he

1054
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 3: tries to pay for the hospitality. Uri says that she

1055
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 3: will not accept payment in the form of money, only

1056
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 3: in the form of him telling her a great story

1057
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 3: of the strange from his travels, and this seems to

1058
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 3: raise Gakuwain's suspicions. We will learn why in a bit,

1059
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 3: But he starts to tell a story from etches In

1060
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 3: Province about a dumpling that was transformed into something that

1061
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 3: gets interrupted by the next big plot beat. Though I

1062
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 3: wanted to hear the dumpling.

1063
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 2: Stone, I know I was. I felt the same way,

1064
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 2: like what does it transform into? Because I've I've read

1065
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 2: some stories from I can't remember offhand off it was

1066
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 2: of Japanese origin or Chinese origin, but of dumplings coming

1067
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 2: to life and essentially running around as little people.

1068
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 3: So he says something about it going under the veranda

1069
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 3: or something. But yeah, it doesn't finish the story because

1070
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 3: as Gakuwin speaks inside, Akira is listening and he hears

1071
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 3: his voice and he's he freezes. Akira is deeply troubled

1072
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 3: because he recognizes Gakuwin's voice, and at one point he

1073
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 3: peeks out through the door and Gakawin sees him. Gaquin

1074
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 3: seems to recognize him as well. So here I'm gonna

1075
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 3: shift a bit from the more moment to moment narration

1076
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 3: into some summary of what follows. So it turns out

1077
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 3: Akira and Gakuin are long lost friends. They were once

1078
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 3: like brothers. But three years ago Akira disappeared without a trace,

1079
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 3: not a single word to his friends or family. Gakuin

1080
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 3: knew that a Kira a disliked city life and thought

1081
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 3: he may have fled to live in the country, but

1082
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 3: nobody knew for sure, and many were afraid that he

1083
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 3: had died. It turns out, in reality, what happened is

1084
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 3: that Akira went traveling north from Tokyo to collect strange

1085
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 3: local tales and legends for a book he was writing

1086
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 3: because he's some sort of folklore scholar. And then, just

1087
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,880
Speaker 3: like Gakawin, Akira had been drawn to this village because

1088
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 3: he saw the demon pond on a map and wanted

1089
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 3: to see it in person. Except when he arrived. At

1090
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:34,439
Speaker 3: this point, all we learn is that he met Uri,

1091
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 3: They fell in love, and they got married, and they

1092
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 3: have been living here together ever since. But why didn't

1093
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 3: Akira let his friends and family know there is something

1094
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 3: strange going on here again, an unspoken tension or reticence.

1095
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 3: For example, Akira's he's got silver hair when we first

1096
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 3: see him, and he later reveals to Gaqawain that it's

1097
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 3: a wig, Like, why is he in disguise in his

1098
01:00:57,920 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 3: own house.

1099
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, out in the such a rural setting. Yeah, who's

1100
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 2: gonna see him? Who's he hiding from?

1101
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 3: Also, Uri in particular seems to be afraid of Gakuwin

1102
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 3: finding out Akira's identity. Yuri says, you know, with this,

1103
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 3: with this kind of pitiful fear. She says, if you

1104
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 3: go away with him, I'd be and then she just

1105
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 3: trails off in fright, like something terrible will happen to

1106
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 3: her if he's not there with her. H And at

1107
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 3: first Yuri manages to talk Akira out of revealing himself

1108
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 3: to Gakawin, but eventually Akia can't stand it. This is

1109
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 3: like after Gakuwin has already left and it starts raining.

1110
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 3: Akira goes after him, finds him in the woods and

1111
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 3: admits who he is, So he invites his old friend

1112
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 3: to stay the night at their house, and they spend

1113
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 3: a long time that evening catching up. Gakuwin has a

1114
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,440
Speaker 3: lot of questions about Uri, rob I wonder what you

1115
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 3: make of like what is the source of initially of

1116
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 3: Gakuwin's suspicion about her, because she's been nothing but nice

1117
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 3: to him, and and in fact, even in the first

1118
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 3: time they meet. He seems rather taken with her, like

1119
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 3: he's kind of entranced by her, but also a little

1120
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:13,240
Speaker 3: bit unsettled. So is it just that she's just giving

1121
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 3: off vibes? Is it magical kind of frightening energy or

1122
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:17,960
Speaker 3: is there something specific?

1123
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it is a general thing like that,

1124
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 2: you know, she has a kind not like a straight

1125
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 2: up spooky vibe, but there is an ethereal nature to her.

1126
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 2: There's the whole disappearance of Akira, and then maybe there's

1127
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 2: also a bit playing with the folkloric elements that the

1128
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 2: trope that we see in at least some Japanese folk

1129
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 2: tales of some sort of a spirit bride that comes

1130
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 2: into someone's life and changes that life one way or another.

1131
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, there will be other character elements that come in

1132
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 3: later that I think may explain part of this, and

1133
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:52,919
Speaker 3: we'll talk about that when it comes up. But yeah,

1134
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 3: at this point I wonder to what degree he really

1135
01:02:57,040 --> 01:02:59,320
Speaker 3: is afraid of her being magical in some way because

1136
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 3: he asks a He's like, is she a sorceress? And

1137
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 3: Akira is like no, what makes you say so? But anyway,

1138
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,400
Speaker 3: they talk and they decide that since Gachowin came here

1139
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:12,240
Speaker 3: to see the demon pond. They are going to go

1140
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 3: out tonight and see it together. So it's a five

1141
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 3: kilometer walk through the woods, and then there is a

1142
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 3: there's a very gun on the mantelpiece, you know, Chekhov's gun.

1143
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 3: You kind of seen where they're like, there may be

1144
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 3: bamboo and vines to cut through on the way to

1145
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 3: demon pond. So we must take our sickles and oh no,

1146
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 3: the sickles are dull, Yuri, would you please sharpen our sickles?

1147
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 3: So like Uri working the sickles on the wet stone

1148
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 3: in the spring while the two men put on their shoes.

1149
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 3: There's it's an eerie moment.

1150
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, we know it's going to pop up back up

1151
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 2: again for sure.

1152
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 3: One of them says it looks really sharp now. So

1153
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 3: also in the scene, Gakuin makes little comments to Akira

1154
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 3: about escaping, and Yuri is frightened about them leaving. She

1155
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:01,040
Speaker 3: says that she's going to feel so lonely. She actually

1156
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 3: clutches a doll. It's a pitiful thing, like, you know,

1157
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:07,200
Speaker 3: clutches a doll, Like there's a kind of return to

1158
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:08,880
Speaker 3: childhood and her fear here.

1159
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, already there's so many you could begin

1160
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:14,439
Speaker 2: just taking little bits of string and mapping them out

1161
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 2: different elements of the plot. Because we have this doll here,

1162
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 2: we have that doll in the desert that we saw.

1163
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 2: The doll in the desert looked very European, and this

1164
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:27,080
Speaker 2: doll looks more authentically Japanese, at least in my eye.

1165
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 2: There's also this like this escape element.

1166
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 3: Right.

1167
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 2: We have characters that we've discussed as escaping the urban

1168
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 2: world to venture into the rural, escaping the modern to

1169
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 2: go into the traditional, and now the reverse is being discussed.

1170
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 3: So we should note. On the night that our main

1171
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 3: characters meet, there is a brief rainstorm, but it's so brief.

1172
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:00,200
Speaker 3: By the time the villagers are able to get out

1173
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 3: their buckets and pails to catch the rain, it's over,

1174
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 3: so it's like the weather is taunting them a lot

1175
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 3: of disappointment. Then there is also a very important scene

1176
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 3: here where the politician shows up, the local member representing

1177
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 3: the village in the Diet. The character's name is Koso

1178
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 3: and a Kuma, but I think I'm just going to

1179
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 3: call him the Diet member. The politician arrives by car

1180
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:24,440
Speaker 3: with bags of rice for the villagers and there is

1181
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:28,440
Speaker 3: much rejoicing because of the rice. So he comes in

1182
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 3: and you know, the people take the rice out there.

1183
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 3: There's like one guy in the village who's the big

1184
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 3: tough wrestler guys. I think he's helping them move the

1185
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,440
Speaker 3: rice in. Uh, and they like spill the rice all

1186
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 3: over the floor of the house they're moving them into,

1187
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 3: and the villagers are just scooping it up by by

1188
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:44,680
Speaker 3: with their hands in a frenzy.

1189
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so there's almost all there's a lack of decorum,

1190
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 2: even such as their excitement for the rice.

1191
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 3: There is also a scene where a man is out

1192
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,960
Speaker 3: hunting a fish that flops in the shallow mud of

1193
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:00,960
Speaker 3: a pond under a sign that says no fishing aloud,

1194
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,520
Speaker 3: and he's singing a great song. This is the translated

1195
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:07,960
Speaker 3: lyrics of the song are there's no lack of goblins,

1196
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 3: which is just like, I want that to be a

1197
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 3: book title, album title.

1198
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 2: Great. I was thinking this could be straight up a

1199
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 2: rocky ericson song right here.

1200
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 3: Just yeah, there's no lack of goblin. Yeah, there's no

1201
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 3: lack of goblins. They come in many shapes, one eyed monster,

1202
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 3: water imp goblin, cat, bucking echo, goblin, cat Goblin of

1203
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 3: the sea. Then there's that one with an egg like face,

1204
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:34,560
Speaker 3: and I think we see that one, think we do. Yeah,

1205
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 3: he's spooky.

1206
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:35,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1207
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:37,680
Speaker 3: So the fisherman, I don't know if he's actually a

1208
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 3: fisherman or just in this moment opportunistically has caught a

1209
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:43,840
Speaker 3: fish in his hat. I'm gonna call him the fisherman.

1210
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 3: He catches a fish in his hat and decides he's

1211
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:49,400
Speaker 3: gonna sell it to the assemblyman and get a good price.

1212
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 3: On the way back to the village, though, he's carrying

1213
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 3: this fish in his hat, and he stops to peek

1214
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 3: in the window of Yuri and Akira's house, and he

1215
01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:02,440
Speaker 3: sees Yuri by herself, and then she slowly turns to

1216
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 3: look at him through the window, and then suddenly he

1217
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:09,400
Speaker 3: is frozen with fear and then shouts in pain because

1218
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:13,280
Speaker 3: a crab has crawled onto his foot and pinched him.

1219
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 3: So he, I think, takes this as some kind of

1220
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 3: horrible sign. He drops the fish into the little pond

1221
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 3: beside the house, and then we see the crab crawling

1222
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 3: down a rock into the pond as well, and then

1223
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:30,760
Speaker 3: he's gone. He takes off in terror, and we're about

1224
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:33,200
Speaker 3: fifty minutes into the movie at this point, and then

1225
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 3: it takes a turn because now we get our first

1226
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 3: encounter with supernatural creatures. Clear like whatever's going on with

1227
01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:44,560
Speaker 3: Uri she it could just be weird energy. Up to

1228
01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 3: the you know, there's nothing explicitly magical, but now we

1229
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 3: get our first explicitly supernatural creatures. The music becomes strange

1230
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 3: and whimsical, and we zoom down into the magic of

1231
01:07:57,320 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 3: pond World and meet the humanoid spirit embodiment of the

1232
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 3: fish that was caught. Is this the carp spirit, the

1233
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 3: one they call car plators? Oh yeah, yeah, the of

1234
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 3: the carp and the crab that saved him. And so

1235
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:16,680
Speaker 3: the fish spirit is a inhumanoid form, is a gleaming,

1236
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:20,800
Speaker 3: slime covered black mass in the moonlight who looks like

1237
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:24,559
Speaker 3: he's got this giant, soggy bloom of hair around his head.

1238
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 3: And the crab spirit is very crabby. He's painted bright red.

1239
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:32,559
Speaker 3: He has these huge claw hands, prosthetic claw hands, and

1240
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:35,639
Speaker 3: he walks with a hunched posture. He is more aggressive,

1241
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 3: the more aggressive of the two rob I don't know

1242
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 3: if you have any other notes on on our first

1243
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:42,800
Speaker 3: goblins here, but they're wonderful.

1244
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:48,000
Speaker 2: They are wonderful, there's a death. These are not necessary.

1245
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 2: There's not really yokai. But again they remind me a

1246
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 2: lot of yokai movies, live action yokai movies from Japan.

1247
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 2: There is, they look great, but there is not an

1248
01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 2: attempt here to make the crab man look more than

1249
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 2: like twenty five percent crab. I don't know, right, you know,

1250
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:08,639
Speaker 2: Like he's it's very obviously a man with crab arms.

1251
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,840
Speaker 2: And then the fish spirit is looks mostly like a

1252
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:16,639
Speaker 2: grimy human. But they have the essence of these animals

1253
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 2: that they are portraying, and it would works, but it's

1254
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 2: very well, it strikes a very comedic cord for sure.

1255
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 3: The crab guy is, he's just like a wild guy

1256
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:31,720
Speaker 3: with crab claws painted red. And the fish is the

1257
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:34,360
Speaker 3: fish could be like a member of the band corn

1258
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:39,719
Speaker 3: covered in like crude oil. Yeah yeah, yeah, so yeah.

1259
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:44,360
Speaker 3: And they have spirit banter too, like they're they're buffoonish characters.

1260
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 3: They get angry at the discarded sedge hat that the

1261
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 3: fishermen had used to catch the fish in, so they

1262
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 3: stomp on it, and then they decide that it's not

1263
01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:56,679
Speaker 3: actually the hat's fault that the fish was caught Also

1264
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 3: the hat starts talking, the hats like, not my fault.

1265
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:02,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you just saw this sequence, you would have

1266
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 2: a totally different idea of what Demon Pond would be about.

1267
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:10,360
Speaker 3: You would not at all get the strange, quiet, haunted

1268
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:14,800
Speaker 3: feeling of everything that's happened up to this point. But yeah,

1269
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 3: so it becomes very goofy and funny. The hat says,

1270
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:19,880
Speaker 3: it's not my fault, and then they throw the hat

1271
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:22,600
Speaker 3: in the air and lands on the head of a

1272
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:25,920
Speaker 3: shrine statue. They say, look how it flies, just like

1273
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 3: a man's head, suggesting that sometimes they behead people and

1274
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:33,120
Speaker 3: throw their heads. So, I guess these are I don't know, dangerous,

1275
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 3: dangerous crab and fish spirits.

1276
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're they're not overly kind concerning humanity, and we'll

1277
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 2: see more of them a bit.

1278
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:45,559
Speaker 3: No, they don't like humans. And they so they say

1279
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:47,800
Speaker 3: they're going to travel to the fish's parental home, which

1280
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:50,519
Speaker 3: we assume is Demon Pond. They're going to Demon Pond,

1281
01:10:51,240 --> 01:10:53,679
Speaker 3: and they talk about the Princess of the Pond. They say,

1282
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:56,160
Speaker 3: does she have any intention to let it rain? And

1283
01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 3: they say, ah, the drought, it's none of her business,

1284
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,479
Speaker 3: it doesn't concern her. And then they start talking about

1285
01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 3: something that will become important dragon princess lore. They say,

1286
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:09,040
Speaker 3: she loves the young man of Singja Pond at King Gamine.

1287
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:12,720
Speaker 3: She thinks of him constantly. They say, why can't she

1288
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:15,120
Speaker 3: just spread her sleeves and fly to go see him,

1289
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:18,759
Speaker 3: Because she can't do that because if she leaves Demon Pond,

1290
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:21,519
Speaker 3: there will be a terrible flood and the whole valley

1291
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 3: will be submerged. But then the crab says, oh, what

1292
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:27,360
Speaker 3: of it, that would expand my habitation. Let the village

1293
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:28,639
Speaker 3: become a muddy marsh.

1294
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:29,920
Speaker 2: Gotta love crab.

1295
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:34,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, And they also passed the bell. They talk about

1296
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:37,000
Speaker 3: how if the bell is not wrung, the flood will

1297
01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:39,720
Speaker 3: be unleashed and the world will become a paradise for them.

1298
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:42,400
Speaker 3: So they're kind of looking forward to this, And this

1299
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 3: is the moment when the music they're like regarding the bell,

1300
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:48,880
Speaker 3: and suddenly the music goes from this whimsical boot dey

1301
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 3: boop stuff into the night on bald Mountain.

1302
01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:54,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're switched on Mazorski at this point, I guess.

1303
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:57,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. So they're cavorting in the moonlight and they sing

1304
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:00,559
Speaker 3: a song, actually a kind of eerie song called turn

1305
01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:04,839
Speaker 3: the mountain into a river. Later, we see them encounter

1306
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:08,040
Speaker 3: another animal water spirit on a journey to the Demon Pond.

1307
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 3: This is an old man hobbling through the woods with

1308
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:14,800
Speaker 3: these catfish barbles hanging from his face. We learn that

1309
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:18,600
Speaker 3: he is called Black Catfish Priest, a catfish who was

1310
01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:22,280
Speaker 3: turned into a monk. And he's got a letter from

1311
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 3: the gentleman of Sinja Pond to deliver to the princess

1312
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 3: of Demon Pond.

1313
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:30,200
Speaker 2: Uh oh, yeah, and I love Black Catfish Priest. He's tremendous.

1314
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:31,880
Speaker 2: He's great, great makeup here.

1315
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:35,800
Speaker 3: So Also at this point, Akira and Gakowin are on

1316
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:38,920
Speaker 3: their journey to the Demon Pond, and Akira recounts the

1317
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 3: legend of the pond to Gakuwin. It goes like this

1318
01:12:43,120 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 3: quote men fought the water. The village seemed doomed at

1319
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:50,080
Speaker 3: that time. A holy man can find the Dragon God

1320
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:54,080
Speaker 3: to that pond. The dragon the dragon God said, my

1321
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:57,240
Speaker 3: freedom is lost, as I pledged to save men from drowning.

1322
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:00,720
Speaker 3: Cast a huge bell, ring it thrice each day to

1323
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 3: awaken me and remind me of my promise. I long

1324
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 3: for freedom to move around, to have my own way,

1325
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:11,000
Speaker 3: to forget the pledge making the water of this pond overflow.

1326
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 3: In gaining freedom, I care not how many men and

1327
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:17,479
Speaker 3: beasts perish. And yet the pledge will be kept. But

1328
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:19,960
Speaker 3: I must be reminded of it lest I forget. Do

1329
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:24,599
Speaker 3: not neglect to ring the bell. Okay, So the story

1330
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:28,200
Speaker 3: again is, Yeah, the dragon god is confined against its

1331
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:32,639
Speaker 3: will to the demon Pond and I, and it wants

1332
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 3: to get out, and if you let it get out,

1333
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 3: it is going to cause a flood. But it has

1334
01:13:36,360 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 3: promised it will not leave, and you've got to remind

1335
01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:40,559
Speaker 3: it of its promise three times a day with the bell.

1336
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:46,360
Speaker 2: So an ancient, an ancient pact, an ancient promise preventing cataclysm,

1337
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:50,599
Speaker 2: and tradition is essential to secure the pact.

1338
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:54,360
Speaker 3: That's right. Also, we get some flashback here where Akira

1339
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 3: tells the story of how he came to take over

1340
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 3: the bell. So he says that an old man tended

1341
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:03,960
Speaker 3: to the bell for fifty years before he arrived, and

1342
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 3: when Akira first came three years ago, he stayed with

1343
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 3: the man in his house. This is the house Akira

1344
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:12,639
Speaker 3: now lives in. But one night, upon returning from ringing

1345
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 3: the bell, the old man collapsed and the dying man

1346
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:18,639
Speaker 3: begged a Kira. He's like, take over my duties. If

1347
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 3: no one rings the bell, everyone will die. And at

1348
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:24,439
Speaker 3: first Akira he agrees to this promise, and he does

1349
01:14:24,479 --> 01:14:27,559
Speaker 3: it just to placate a dying man. He intends to

1350
01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:30,120
Speaker 3: ring it only once and then convince someone from the

1351
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:33,640
Speaker 3: village below to take over for him. But when he

1352
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:36,600
Speaker 3: explains the legend to the villagers, the villagers are not

1353
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 3: bought in on this. They just laugh in his face.

1354
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:42,120
Speaker 3: No one believes the story, and so nobody's willing to

1355
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:45,000
Speaker 3: do it. So it falls to Akira. He has to

1356
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:47,360
Speaker 3: go back and keep ringing the bell because nobody else

1357
01:14:47,360 --> 01:14:50,679
Speaker 3: will take over. A few other scenes in here, there's

1358
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,880
Speaker 3: a scene where we get to see the villagers feasting.

1359
01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:58,080
Speaker 3: They're going and gorging themselves on the polished rice that

1360
01:14:58,120 --> 01:15:01,200
Speaker 3: the politician brought. But I was wondering what did they

1361
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 3: cook it with? They don't have any water, Like, did

1362
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:05,519
Speaker 3: they have to use breast milk to make their rice?

1363
01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:08,960
Speaker 2: Maybe they were able to get just enough rain water

1364
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:09,320
Speaker 2: for this.

1365
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:13,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the fishermen who got pinched by the crab

1366
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:16,559
Speaker 3: spirit is here and we learn in this scene that

1367
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:19,439
Speaker 3: he has a reputation about town as a scoundrel, like

1368
01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:21,680
Speaker 3: the men mock him for always hanging out by the

1369
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 3: belfry hoping to see Uri. And then also at this time,

1370
01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:29,559
Speaker 3: we see Yuri at home having a weird communion with

1371
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,760
Speaker 3: the moon and with her doll. She talks about how

1372
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:35,559
Speaker 3: the night is so long and she is alone, and

1373
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:39,479
Speaker 3: then she repeats the song she heard the spirits singing

1374
01:15:39,520 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 3: through the wall. She starts singing, turn the mountain into

1375
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:47,240
Speaker 3: a river, which is a little bit frightening, and it

1376
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:51,559
Speaker 3: implies that there is some connection between the spirit world

1377
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:53,320
Speaker 3: and the physical world. I mean, I guess we already

1378
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:56,839
Speaker 3: saw that in that the crab spirit did pinch the fishermen,

1379
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:00,639
Speaker 3: and also Yuri has been hearing their songs sings it too.

1380
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:07,200
Speaker 3: So Crab Karp and Black Catfish Priest make their way

1381
01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:11,200
Speaker 3: down into the layer of the Dragon Princess under Demon Pond,

1382
01:16:11,680 --> 01:16:15,479
Speaker 3: and they pass through this wonderfully bizarre cave set that

1383
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:18,439
Speaker 3: is kind of hard to describe, but it's full of

1384
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:22,400
Speaker 3: these roots and mud, and it's populated with all sorts

1385
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:27,560
Speaker 3: of humanoid spirit creatures where you've got various fish, turtles, frogs,

1386
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:32,160
Speaker 3: crab and then other less watery demons, just assorted demons

1387
01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:34,760
Speaker 3: and goblins of muck that I can't really see an

1388
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:36,080
Speaker 3: animal comparison for.

1389
01:16:36,160 --> 01:16:38,280
Speaker 2: That, kind of like egg face dude is here.

1390
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:41,280
Speaker 3: He's kind of Cyclopean with a cone head or an

1391
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:44,160
Speaker 3: egg head, and he's making like a vulcan salute with

1392
01:16:44,240 --> 01:16:49,639
Speaker 3: his fingers. And the catfish priest here before he meets

1393
01:16:49,680 --> 01:16:52,760
Speaker 3: the dragon princess he makes he becomes anxious about the

1394
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:56,040
Speaker 3: contents of his letter. He's like, what if it tells

1395
01:16:56,040 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 3: the dragon princess to cut him up and eat him?

1396
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 3: And then he remembers a story of a time when

1397
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:04,920
Speaker 3: he got in trouble with his own pond lord because

1398
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:07,599
Speaker 3: he was watching a beautiful woman bathe naked in the water,

1399
01:17:08,080 --> 01:17:10,639
Speaker 3: and the other spirits think this is hilarious. A lot

1400
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:14,479
Speaker 3: of like crab and fish spirit antics here again, these

1401
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:19,760
Speaker 3: these comedic performances. And then the crab decides to use

1402
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:22,800
Speaker 3: its scissors to cut open the letter box so they

1403
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:25,200
Speaker 3: can read what's in the letter. But before they can

1404
01:17:25,240 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 3: read it, a voice cries out and says, away with

1405
01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:31,639
Speaker 3: you creatures of mud, like, oh no, here she comes,

1406
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:35,280
Speaker 3: and we finally meet the dragon Princess. So things are

1407
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:39,320
Speaker 3: getting real. Now once again, this is this is Bando

1408
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:43,439
Speaker 3: also in the performance as the Dragon Princess. The Dragon

1409
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:47,320
Speaker 3: Goddess is an elegant queen in a red gown embroidered

1410
01:17:47,320 --> 01:17:51,040
Speaker 3: with flowers and gold lining. She has this beautiful crown

1411
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:54,719
Speaker 3: of gold and crystal with these dangling pieces that sway

1412
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:58,599
Speaker 3: when she moves. Her face is pale with kabuki makeup,

1413
01:17:59,360 --> 01:18:02,280
Speaker 3: so she has a scented eyebrows and deep red lips.

1414
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:05,519
Speaker 3: And she kind of swoops in with her retinue, which

1415
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:09,960
Speaker 3: includes all kinds of figures, these monstrous samurai and these

1416
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:13,800
Speaker 3: ghostly women with faces painted white. And she takes the

1417
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:18,320
Speaker 3: letter from Catfish and tries to read it. First, she

1418
01:18:18,360 --> 01:18:21,120
Speaker 3: says how irritating it is to read a letter by moonlight,

1419
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:24,599
Speaker 3: And then one of her servants says, oh, you know,

1420
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 3: your majesty, as the incarnation of the Dragon God, your

1421
01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 3: own radiation. The implication is should be enough to read by,

1422
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:34,680
Speaker 3: and it's true enough. She glows and then reads the

1423
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:38,839
Speaker 3: letter by her own glow, and we come to understand

1424
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:42,160
Speaker 3: it as a very good love letter, very well written,

1425
01:18:42,280 --> 01:18:46,240
Speaker 3: gentle and beautiful in its language, and the Dragon Princess

1426
01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:49,840
Speaker 3: is smitten. She desperately wants to go to Singapond and

1427
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:53,280
Speaker 3: be with this other pond lord. He must be a great,

1428
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:58,479
Speaker 3: awesome pond lord, so she wants that. But her nurse,

1429
01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:01,400
Speaker 3: who is an older woman with the catlike appearance and

1430
01:19:01,439 --> 01:19:05,840
Speaker 3: these and like wispy white hair, the nurse reminds her

1431
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:09,479
Speaker 3: of her duty. She cannot leave. The nurse makes it

1432
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:12,160
Speaker 3: clear she's like, I'm not saying I love humans. I

1433
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:14,439
Speaker 3: don't care whether they live or die. In fact, she

1434
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:18,240
Speaker 3: refers to them as monkeys without tails. But she says

1435
01:19:18,360 --> 01:19:21,320
Speaker 3: a promise is a promise, and the princess cannot break it.

1436
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 3: The princess reacts to this with rage. She tries to

1437
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:28,720
Speaker 3: order her soldiers to go and destroy the bell, but

1438
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:31,160
Speaker 3: her nurse rebukes her again and tells her no, she

1439
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:34,800
Speaker 3: cannot command this. And then the nurse starts trying to

1440
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:37,720
Speaker 3: bargain or compromise. She tells her like, look, you only

1441
01:19:37,760 --> 01:19:39,760
Speaker 3: need to wait a little bit longer. It won't be

1442
01:19:39,840 --> 01:19:42,439
Speaker 3: thirty or fifty years, just a little bit longer before

1443
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:44,960
Speaker 3: you can be free. And I was trying to think,

1444
01:19:45,320 --> 01:19:47,960
Speaker 3: what's going on here is the nurse. Does the nurse

1445
01:19:48,080 --> 01:19:51,639
Speaker 3: think she's telling her? The truth is she reasoning, pretty

1446
01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:54,280
Speaker 3: soon they'll forget to ring the bell, and then you'll

1447
01:19:54,280 --> 01:19:56,240
Speaker 3: be free of your pact, and then you can flood

1448
01:19:56,280 --> 01:19:59,600
Speaker 3: the valley and go be free. Or is she just

1449
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:02,240
Speaker 3: trying to kind of like tide her over. I don't

1450
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:03,960
Speaker 3: know really what the nurse is thinking.

1451
01:20:04,400 --> 01:20:06,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point though about like if you

1452
01:20:06,280 --> 01:20:08,640
Speaker 2: just keep if you just keep at it, you know,

1453
01:20:08,720 --> 01:20:12,080
Speaker 2: don't but break the pledge, the humans are going to

1454
01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:14,800
Speaker 2: forget about it, and the bell's not going to be wrong,

1455
01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:15,599
Speaker 2: and then we're free.

1456
01:20:16,120 --> 01:20:18,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So I don't know. Maybe the nurse is

1457
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:20,360
Speaker 3: just trying to get through one day at a time.

1458
01:20:20,439 --> 01:20:25,400
Speaker 3: But the Dragon Princess, she's furious. She wanders around the

1459
01:20:25,479 --> 01:20:29,200
Speaker 3: dark cavern and she says, a yearning, a yearning heart

1460
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:32,640
Speaker 3: will overcome all barriers. I am unwilling to wait, and

1461
01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:35,680
Speaker 3: she's just acting out these feelings. She can't stand it.

1462
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:38,920
Speaker 3: And then here it also turns into I mentioned that

1463
01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:41,320
Speaker 3: there are multiple scenes of this in the movie, of

1464
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:44,960
Speaker 3: a kind of moral bargaining, where the princess starts making

1465
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:48,559
Speaker 3: a lot of excuses for doing what she knows is wrong.

1466
01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:53,080
Speaker 3: She talks about how humans break their promises all the time. Yeah,

1467
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:57,280
Speaker 3: they break their promises. She also says promises are arbitrary,

1468
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:00,360
Speaker 3: and then she says, my ancestors made this play out

1469
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:03,520
Speaker 3: of convenience. Why should I be bound by what they pledged?

1470
01:21:04,479 --> 01:21:07,120
Speaker 3: And again her servants and advisors tell her that she

1471
01:21:07,200 --> 01:21:10,400
Speaker 3: cannot break the pledge, and they remind her, you know,

1472
01:21:10,479 --> 01:21:12,840
Speaker 3: if the humans ever fail, if they ever fail to

1473
01:21:12,920 --> 01:21:14,920
Speaker 3: ring the bell three times a day, you are free

1474
01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:17,400
Speaker 3: and can leave at your own will. But until then

1475
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:22,479
Speaker 3: you have to do your duty. But she she's like, no, no, no,

1476
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:25,560
Speaker 3: And so she leads her retinue to the bell. And

1477
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:28,360
Speaker 3: so her whole like drenched court comes out of this

1478
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:32,599
Speaker 3: pondly other world and out into the area of the bell, free,

1479
01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:36,519
Speaker 3: and they're standing there with like the wind whipping at

1480
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:39,320
Speaker 3: her hair and clothes. And she says she doesn't care

1481
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:42,879
Speaker 3: if there is divine punishment. Love is more important. Quote

1482
01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:46,920
Speaker 3: how blissful to dissolve in the stream of affection. Let

1483
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:50,160
Speaker 3: my body be crushed to pieces, my soul will still

1484
01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:53,240
Speaker 3: yearn for him. Is hope as faint as a firefly's

1485
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:57,120
Speaker 3: dim light. And I love this part because maybe I'll

1486
01:21:57,160 --> 01:22:01,320
Speaker 3: mention some more parallels later. But so self destructive love

1487
01:22:01,360 --> 01:22:04,280
Speaker 3: and passion is a major theme of Pale Flower as well,

1488
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:07,639
Speaker 3: so something in both of these Shinoda movies I've seen.

1489
01:22:16,880 --> 01:22:20,000
Speaker 3: So the princess is getting ready to do the unthinkable,

1490
01:22:20,120 --> 01:22:23,879
Speaker 3: to violate her packed and destroy the bell, whatever divine

1491
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:27,439
Speaker 3: punishment may come to her. But then she is she's

1492
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:32,599
Speaker 3: given pause because she hears Yuri singing, and from this

1493
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:36,559
Speaker 3: example she learns that when separated from a loved one,

1494
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 3: singing to oneself can provide comfort, like her nurse is saying, yes,

1495
01:22:41,160 --> 01:22:44,080
Speaker 3: it's exactly that, Yes, singing to yourself can be comforting,

1496
01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 3: and this kind of causes her to come to her senses,

1497
01:22:48,120 --> 01:22:50,600
Speaker 3: and she talks about, you know, if the bell were destroyed,

1498
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:53,680
Speaker 3: innocent good people would die too. The implication is that

1499
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:56,360
Speaker 3: like Yuri, who seems to be an innocent good person,

1500
01:22:56,400 --> 01:23:00,479
Speaker 3: would perish, though general opinion of the villagers remains low.

1501
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:04,080
Speaker 3: And then Yuri herself comes out to ring the bell

1502
01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:06,160
Speaker 3: because Akira is away for the night, so she comes

1503
01:23:06,200 --> 01:23:08,679
Speaker 3: out to ring the bell, and once she rings the bell,

1504
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:11,479
Speaker 3: like hits the log into the bell, the princess and

1505
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:14,240
Speaker 3: all of the other creatures are sent reeling. They are

1506
01:23:14,360 --> 01:23:18,200
Speaker 3: drawn by some powerful force like a hurricane back to

1507
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:19,520
Speaker 3: the Demon pond.

1508
01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:22,439
Speaker 2: Almal shades of a night on bald Mountain, right, Yeah.

1509
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:24,400
Speaker 3: Yes, actually, so we see them like whipped about by

1510
01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:28,759
Speaker 3: this magical wind and slow motion, which is interesting because

1511
01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 3: it's like the reminder of the bell is physically efficacious.

1512
01:23:32,479 --> 01:23:35,799
Speaker 3: It's not just psychological for the spirits, it literally forces

1513
01:23:35,880 --> 01:23:40,840
Speaker 3: them back. And there is this strange, beautiful gravity defying

1514
01:23:41,160 --> 01:23:44,720
Speaker 3: kabuki dance when we watch the dragon princess sinking down

1515
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:48,479
Speaker 3: beneath the water, and then at the same time we

1516
01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:50,559
Speaker 3: see her sinking into the water, and at the same

1517
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:54,200
Speaker 3: time in the mundane world, Akira and Gakuin are at

1518
01:23:54,240 --> 01:23:57,760
Speaker 3: the physical demon pond, standing at the edge, and we

1519
01:23:57,840 --> 01:24:00,280
Speaker 3: don't see them encounter each other at all. Is a

1520
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:03,280
Speaker 3: kind of different world's thing, parallel worlds in a way.

1521
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:07,240
Speaker 3: So this is the scene where Gakuwin and Akira kind

1522
01:24:07,240 --> 01:24:11,719
Speaker 3: of compare worldviews. Like Gakuwen is a man of science

1523
01:24:11,800 --> 01:24:16,040
Speaker 3: and rationalism, Akira is a lover of legends and myths.

1524
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:20,640
Speaker 3: Gakuwin does not typically accept magical reasons for things, like

1525
01:24:21,240 --> 01:24:24,080
Speaker 3: Akira says, you know, but if the pond is not magical,

1526
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:26,599
Speaker 3: why is it that no leaf rests on the pond's

1527
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:30,040
Speaker 3: surface and Gakuwan gives an explanation related to the wind,

1528
01:24:30,360 --> 01:24:32,679
Speaker 3: though I think it's interesting that he makes an exception

1529
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:35,760
Speaker 3: for Yuri. He is frightened of her, and he tells

1530
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:39,840
Speaker 3: Akira that she is not human. Gakuwin wants Akira to

1531
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:43,519
Speaker 3: leave his wife and escape with him. There's something strange

1532
01:24:43,560 --> 01:24:45,960
Speaker 3: about her and about this place, and he's in danger,

1533
01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:49,639
Speaker 3: and Akira becomes angry. He violently resists this, and they

1534
01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:52,479
Speaker 3: have a brief fight where Akira knocks down his old

1535
01:24:52,520 --> 01:24:55,800
Speaker 3: friend and forces him to apologize. And at this point

1536
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:59,679
Speaker 3: I think another motivation for Gakuwin comes into focus. Maybe

1537
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:03,640
Speaker 3: why he's feeling so strange about Uri. It's not just

1538
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:08,520
Speaker 3: the vibes she's giving off. It's also maybe jealousy, jealousy

1539
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:11,960
Speaker 3: of the fact that she has had his old friend

1540
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:15,280
Speaker 3: for all these years and he has not, So there's

1541
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:17,519
Speaker 3: a jealousy there. And then I wonder also if it's

1542
01:25:17,600 --> 01:25:20,400
Speaker 3: jealousy the other way, like he finds her beautiful and

1543
01:25:20,560 --> 01:25:23,000
Speaker 3: is attracted to her in a way and is jealous

1544
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:26,320
Speaker 3: of Akira because it seems that Gakuin does not have

1545
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 3: a family of his own. This scene gives way into

1546
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:33,800
Speaker 3: what we were talking about earlier, where Akira remembers, like,

1547
01:25:33,840 --> 01:25:36,120
Speaker 3: there's a flashback to how he fell in love with Uri.

1548
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:38,640
Speaker 3: He remembers the day that he met her. He was

1549
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:42,200
Speaker 3: planning to leave the village, but then they met at

1550
01:25:42,280 --> 01:25:46,440
Speaker 3: opposite at ends of opposite docks jutting into this shallow marsh,

1551
01:25:46,840 --> 01:25:50,360
Speaker 3: and she tells him that she found papers that he

1552
01:25:50,479 --> 01:25:53,280
Speaker 3: left behind on which he recorded the legend of the

1553
01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:56,479
Speaker 3: Bell and the Demon Pond, And in this instant he

1554
01:25:56,560 --> 01:25:58,800
Speaker 3: falls in love with her, and he can't leave because

1555
01:25:58,800 --> 01:26:02,479
Speaker 3: he can't bear the thought of Yuri in particular being

1556
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:05,040
Speaker 3: killed in the flood, so he stays to tend to

1557
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:08,559
Speaker 3: the bell and becomes her husband. He doesn't seem to

1558
01:26:08,560 --> 01:26:10,559
Speaker 3: be all that bothered by the idea of anybody else

1559
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:12,479
Speaker 3: in the village being killed in the flood, but if

1560
01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:16,680
Speaker 3: Yuri were killed, he's like, that would be unacceptable. And

1561
01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 3: we see them falling in love in a montage set

1562
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:23,599
Speaker 3: to again these strange electronic pads with the swirling sounds,

1563
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:26,320
Speaker 3: and they embrace and kiss and they talk about the

1564
01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:29,880
Speaker 3: moonflowers and settle into the house by the belfry. Now

1565
01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:33,200
Speaker 3: next we get into the final showdown of the movie,

1566
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:35,439
Speaker 3: which is set up by a long sequence where the

1567
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:39,000
Speaker 3: villager is presided over by the politician the diet member.

1568
01:26:40,040 --> 01:26:43,679
Speaker 3: Now that they have feasted on polished rice, they begin

1569
01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:46,639
Speaker 3: to talk themselves into the idea that there is only

1570
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:49,360
Speaker 3: one way to solve the drought and bring rain, and

1571
01:26:49,479 --> 01:26:53,640
Speaker 3: that is to have a human sacrifice. I think the

1572
01:26:53,680 --> 01:26:56,120
Speaker 3: diet member is the one who first suggests it, and

1573
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:59,479
Speaker 3: they decide they have to sacrifice the most beautiful young

1574
01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:03,400
Speaker 3: woman in town. So there is searching around for which

1575
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:06,000
Speaker 3: woman will be sacrificed. Do they argue about it? Like

1576
01:27:06,479 --> 01:27:09,000
Speaker 3: the guy who caught the carp earlier has to defend

1577
01:27:09,040 --> 01:27:13,200
Speaker 3: his own daughter against being sacrificed by implying that she

1578
01:27:13,360 --> 01:27:16,759
Speaker 3: is sexually promiscuous, humiliating her in front of the town.

1579
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:19,280
Speaker 2: But there's maybe a sense that he's making it. He's

1580
01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:21,080
Speaker 2: like youths come in the night or something like that.

1581
01:27:21,360 --> 01:27:23,960
Speaker 3: Well, he's like making it up, and she seems humiliated.

1582
01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:26,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yeah, she's humilated either way. But also

1583
01:27:26,080 --> 01:27:29,479
Speaker 2: where are these youths with no sign of them? But

1584
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:31,040
Speaker 2: he's saying what he has to say to save her life.

1585
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:32,000
Speaker 2: At least that was my read.

1586
01:27:32,479 --> 01:27:35,519
Speaker 3: But the blood thirst tests to turn to somewhere, and

1587
01:27:35,600 --> 01:27:37,719
Speaker 3: I think it is him that suggests what about Yuri,

1588
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:41,280
Speaker 3: And there's a kind of there's a kind of vengeful

1589
01:27:41,360 --> 01:27:45,479
Speaker 3: jealousy suggested here because I think he sees her from Afar,

1590
01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:47,800
Speaker 3: but he can't have her, and this turns into a

1591
01:27:47,880 --> 01:27:51,080
Speaker 3: kind of resentment where he suggests her, you know, she

1592
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:55,519
Speaker 3: should be the one punished. So then led by the

1593
01:27:55,600 --> 01:27:59,080
Speaker 3: village elders, like the mainly the diet member, but then

1594
01:27:59,120 --> 01:28:02,519
Speaker 3: also the village has man, the schoolmaster, and the Shinto priest,

1595
01:28:03,040 --> 01:28:06,719
Speaker 3: the villagers head up to the house and they capture Yuri,

1596
01:28:07,640 --> 01:28:09,559
Speaker 3: saying that they're going to tie her to an ox

1597
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:12,160
Speaker 3: and slaughter her on the mountain side. Actually, first they

1598
01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:14,040
Speaker 3: lie to her. They tell her, oh, we're not going

1599
01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:15,639
Speaker 3: to kill you, just we'll tie you to the ox

1600
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:18,240
Speaker 3: and then we'll kill the ox. But that is obviously

1601
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:23,559
Speaker 3: not their attention, and so Akira and Gakawin on their

1602
01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:26,880
Speaker 3: way home, they hear the commotion and they come to

1603
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:32,160
Speaker 3: Yuri's rescue, and this turns into a big long argument

1604
01:28:32,240 --> 01:28:35,360
Speaker 3: and confrontation with the crowd where the two of them

1605
01:28:35,400 --> 01:28:38,080
Speaker 3: try to convince the crowd not to do this, but

1606
01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:41,840
Speaker 3: the bloodthirsty leaders, especially the diet members push the crowd

1607
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:45,559
Speaker 3: to move ahead. So first Akira very bravely defends his

1608
01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:48,120
Speaker 3: wife and will not step aside for them. Like they

1609
01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:50,360
Speaker 3: try to tell him that he'll be fine, they'll leave

1610
01:28:50,439 --> 01:28:52,479
Speaker 3: him alone if he'll give her up, but he won't.

1611
01:28:53,200 --> 01:28:57,120
Speaker 3: And then Gakawin appears to their rationality and argues against

1612
01:28:57,200 --> 01:28:59,360
Speaker 3: what they're doing. Like there's one part where the Shinto

1613
01:28:59,439 --> 01:29:02,759
Speaker 3: priests say to him, you sound like a Buddhist priest preaching,

1614
01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:06,920
Speaker 3: and Gaquin then, I don't know if he's telling the

1615
01:29:06,960 --> 01:29:10,400
Speaker 3: truth here he says, I am a priest. I didn't

1616
01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:12,479
Speaker 3: fully understand the implications of this part.

1617
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:15,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wasn't sure if he was speaking metaphorically or

1618
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:18,400
Speaker 2: if this is just another dimension to his character. Because

1619
01:29:18,600 --> 01:29:21,719
Speaker 2: one thing I do get from Goquain is like quite fitting,

1620
01:29:21,840 --> 01:29:24,920
Speaker 2: is like he's a man that has a foot in

1621
01:29:24,960 --> 01:29:26,960
Speaker 2: different worlds, you know, like he is a teacher and

1622
01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:30,640
Speaker 2: a naturalist, and maybe he is a priest or in

1623
01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:33,519
Speaker 2: some sense is a priest, and therefore the things that

1624
01:29:33,560 --> 01:29:37,320
Speaker 2: he's doing that are very modern are also deeply rooted

1625
01:29:37,360 --> 01:29:40,960
Speaker 2: in things that are very traditional, Like a naturalist is

1626
01:29:41,080 --> 01:29:42,439
Speaker 2: kind of a priest in some way.

1627
01:29:42,960 --> 01:29:44,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I can see that.

1628
01:29:44,600 --> 01:29:47,519
Speaker 2: Especially when you're considering Shintoism and so forth.

1629
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:49,880
Speaker 3: Well, I want to get into the idea of traditionalism

1630
01:29:49,880 --> 01:29:52,679
Speaker 3: in just a minute here, but first I'll finish describing

1631
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:55,000
Speaker 3: the scene by saying that after this, the diet member

1632
01:29:55,040 --> 01:30:00,679
Speaker 3: gets up and he gives this vicious, bullying, demagogic sermon

1633
01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:04,760
Speaker 3: about sacrificing for the national spirit. Like he talks about

1634
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:08,439
Speaker 3: how real men, real warriors, used to kill their own

1635
01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:11,080
Speaker 3: wives before going into battle so that they would not

1636
01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:14,800
Speaker 3: think of home, only of victory. And it's that kind

1637
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:18,320
Speaker 3: of he's like, and he accuses the people defending ury

1638
01:30:18,400 --> 01:30:22,000
Speaker 3: of being snivelers and weak, and he kind of rouses

1639
01:30:22,040 --> 01:30:24,800
Speaker 3: the bloodlust of the crowd and accuses Akira of being

1640
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:28,439
Speaker 3: a traitor. And then there's an interesting moment where Akira

1641
01:30:28,520 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 3: confronts the diet member. He's like, well, if somebody has

1642
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:33,439
Speaker 3: to be brave and die, how about you? How about

1643
01:30:33,439 --> 01:30:38,200
Speaker 3: you take this sickle and kill yourself? And Akira shames

1644
01:30:38,240 --> 01:30:40,679
Speaker 3: the whole crowd. He says, do you not remember tradition?

1645
01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:44,440
Speaker 3: And he speaks of these traditional stories where human sacrifice

1646
01:30:44,479 --> 01:30:48,800
Speaker 3: went wrong. But this leads into something I thought was

1647
01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:54,400
Speaker 3: actually really interesting about the traditional status or lack thereof,

1648
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:59,960
Speaker 3: of human sacrifice. Most movie narratives or most fictional narrative

1649
01:31:00,200 --> 01:31:05,400
Speaker 3: generally where the characters debate the institution of human sacrifice.

1650
01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:07,960
Speaker 3: I think most of the time this is about old

1651
01:31:08,040 --> 01:31:12,280
Speaker 3: ways versus new So the human sacrifice is presented as

1652
01:31:12,280 --> 01:31:16,280
Speaker 3: an ancient tradition that must be continued, and then you

1653
01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:20,280
Speaker 3: have characters representing new ways of thinking that doubt or

1654
01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:23,920
Speaker 3: resist it. But I think that is not the case here.

1655
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:25,719
Speaker 3: That is not how it's being presented.

1656
01:31:25,800 --> 01:31:27,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have kind of an inverse Wickerman here.

1657
01:31:28,280 --> 01:31:32,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. The human sacrifice plot put into motion by

1658
01:31:32,120 --> 01:31:36,720
Speaker 3: the villagers and the diet member especially feels improvised and

1659
01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:42,400
Speaker 3: half cocked at best. Its relationship to tradition is one

1660
01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:48,160
Speaker 3: of a compromised, half remembered imitation of some ancient practice

1661
01:31:48,640 --> 01:31:52,960
Speaker 3: that is resorted to out of a shameless desperation and cruelty.

1662
01:31:53,360 --> 01:31:56,800
Speaker 3: It is not a faithful attempt to keep the old

1663
01:31:56,800 --> 01:32:01,479
Speaker 3: ways alive, and Akira makes an appeal against it by

1664
01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:06,000
Speaker 3: appealing to tradition. So I think that's really interesting and

1665
01:32:06,439 --> 01:32:09,360
Speaker 3: it actually this is where I think some of the

1666
01:32:09,400 --> 01:32:12,640
Speaker 3: subtle political themes of the film come out, because I

1667
01:32:12,680 --> 01:32:18,000
Speaker 3: know Massa hero Shanoda generally is understood as having been

1668
01:32:18,160 --> 01:32:24,960
Speaker 3: very opposed to right wing nationalism and right wing authoritarianism,

1669
01:32:25,439 --> 01:32:29,000
Speaker 3: and this film is sometimes interpreted as having those themes.

1670
01:32:29,439 --> 01:32:31,679
Speaker 3: And it does make me think about how a lot

1671
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:38,360
Speaker 3: of right wing nationalist movements appeal to a simulacrum of

1672
01:32:38,400 --> 01:32:42,559
Speaker 3: the past because they appeal to a past that never

1673
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:46,240
Speaker 3: actually existed. What they're trying to create is actually a

1674
01:32:46,439 --> 01:32:51,960
Speaker 3: new thing that is calling itself a restoration of the past.

1675
01:32:52,680 --> 01:32:57,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was thinking about this too. We see, unfortunately,

1676
01:32:57,120 --> 01:33:01,240
Speaker 2: see numerous echoes of this in our contemporary world, calls

1677
01:33:01,280 --> 01:33:06,280
Speaker 2: for intolerance and blood lust that are rooted in some again,

1678
01:33:06,360 --> 01:33:09,120
Speaker 2: like you say, some half remembered imitation of the past.

1679
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:13,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I detect that kind of critique in this movie,

1680
01:33:13,120 --> 01:33:17,360
Speaker 3: that there's something about people thinking that they are enacting

1681
01:33:17,400 --> 01:33:20,840
Speaker 3: a tradition and like retrieving the wisdom of their ancestors,

1682
01:33:20,840 --> 01:33:23,920
Speaker 3: but actually they're just bumbling into viciousness.

1683
01:33:24,040 --> 01:33:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the traditions, especially in the context of this film,

1684
01:33:27,040 --> 01:33:30,400
Speaker 2: the traditions are what is keeping cataclysm from taking place.

1685
01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:35,200
Speaker 3: Ye, these they're acting opposite that. Yeah, they don't understand

1686
01:33:35,240 --> 01:33:39,639
Speaker 3: the tradition. What they think tradition is yeah. So anyway,

1687
01:33:39,720 --> 01:33:42,640
Speaker 3: this leads all into a physical fight at the belfry

1688
01:33:42,720 --> 01:33:46,479
Speaker 3: where Akira, Uri and Gakawin they they are chased onto

1689
01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:50,560
Speaker 3: the belfry by the village's war the villagers warriors and swordsmen.

1690
01:33:51,120 --> 01:33:51,479
Speaker 2: Uh.

1691
01:33:51,520 --> 01:33:57,360
Speaker 3: And in this final confrontation, Uri she kills herself, I

1692
01:33:57,400 --> 01:34:00,040
Speaker 3: think to I think the idea is she's trying to

1693
01:34:00,080 --> 01:34:01,120
Speaker 3: save Akira.

1694
01:34:00,960 --> 01:34:03,360
Speaker 2: With that tool with the sickle.

1695
01:34:03,520 --> 01:34:09,360
Speaker 3: Yes. And after this happens, in despair, Akira cuts the

1696
01:34:09,439 --> 01:34:12,599
Speaker 3: cords of the log that is used to ring the bell,

1697
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:17,280
Speaker 3: so the bell remains unwrung at dawn as dawn breaks,

1698
01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:21,719
Speaker 3: and this leads into the final apocalyptic conclusion of the story,

1699
01:34:21,720 --> 01:34:25,040
Speaker 3: because now the pact has been rent, has been sundered,

1700
01:34:26,160 --> 01:34:28,280
Speaker 3: it has been you know, they've they've cut the cord.

1701
01:34:28,360 --> 01:34:30,639
Speaker 3: They broke their end of the pact, and so the demon,

1702
01:34:31,280 --> 01:34:33,960
Speaker 3: the Dragon Princess, is no longer bound by her end.

1703
01:34:34,400 --> 01:34:38,759
Speaker 3: And so the sky darkens and this giant water spout

1704
01:34:38,880 --> 01:34:41,759
Speaker 3: comes up out of the demon pond and pours into

1705
01:34:41,840 --> 01:34:45,479
Speaker 3: the sky. And now too late, the villagers beg Akira

1706
01:34:45,520 --> 01:34:47,880
Speaker 3: to ring the bell, but nothing can be done at

1707
01:34:47,880 --> 01:34:52,519
Speaker 3: this point. And then comes a tidal wave that flows

1708
01:34:52,680 --> 01:34:56,519
Speaker 3: over the mountain and not only destroys everything in the village,

1709
01:34:56,960 --> 01:35:02,559
Speaker 3: but destroys the land itself fundamental rends the landscape. This

1710
01:35:02,600 --> 01:35:05,599
Speaker 3: part is it has some miniature work and some camera

1711
01:35:05,680 --> 01:35:09,200
Speaker 3: tricks to show these horrible like these tidal waves rushing

1712
01:35:09,240 --> 01:35:12,200
Speaker 3: over the village as the people are running away in terror.

1713
01:35:12,880 --> 01:35:17,040
Speaker 3: There's one shot of the like the cowardly, you know,

1714
01:35:17,160 --> 01:35:19,880
Speaker 3: vicious diet member and the other leaders are like up

1715
01:35:19,920 --> 01:35:22,120
Speaker 3: on the top of a house and people are trying

1716
01:35:22,160 --> 01:35:24,200
Speaker 3: to crawl up onto the house for safety, and they're

1717
01:35:24,200 --> 01:35:26,719
Speaker 3: like kicking them to get them to, you know, come down.

1718
01:35:27,200 --> 01:35:29,080
Speaker 3: But eventually everyone is washed away.

1719
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:31,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and speaking like shifting tones in this movie, like

1720
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:36,439
Speaker 2: now we're in full blown disaster movie mode and special

1721
01:35:36,479 --> 01:35:39,800
Speaker 2: effects movie mode, tremendous water spout.

1722
01:35:39,880 --> 01:35:43,240
Speaker 3: And it's terrifying. Yeah, And so everything is just destroyed

1723
01:35:43,760 --> 01:35:48,960
Speaker 3: and then finally the only person left is Gakawin. Everyone

1724
01:35:49,160 --> 01:35:53,040
Speaker 3: Gakawin survives by tying himself with a rope to the

1725
01:35:53,080 --> 01:35:56,080
Speaker 3: post of the belfry, which it turns out in the

1726
01:35:56,200 --> 01:36:00,280
Speaker 3: end is the only structure left standing. And get a

1727
01:36:00,280 --> 01:36:03,800
Speaker 3: final vision of the liberation of the Dragon Princess where

1728
01:36:04,080 --> 01:36:07,840
Speaker 3: she rises out of the pond elated and she flies away.

1729
01:36:08,000 --> 01:36:11,360
Speaker 3: She's depicted. Maybe there is a more direct to Japanese

1730
01:36:11,400 --> 01:36:13,840
Speaker 3: inspiration for this, but what it actually looked like to

1731
01:36:13,880 --> 01:36:18,080
Speaker 3: me was she looks like an angel in a Renaissance

1732
01:36:18,080 --> 01:36:21,280
Speaker 3: European painting, like drifting with you know these kind of

1733
01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:24,680
Speaker 3: like other figures kind of reclining against her as they

1734
01:36:24,720 --> 01:36:28,640
Speaker 3: all flowed up into these rays of light from the clouds. Yeah,

1735
01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:31,479
Speaker 3: and the implication is finally she is free and she's

1736
01:36:31,520 --> 01:36:33,840
Speaker 3: going to sin Japan to meet her love, to be

1737
01:36:33,920 --> 01:36:36,200
Speaker 3: reunited or not. I don't know if they've ever been

1738
01:36:36,280 --> 01:36:40,439
Speaker 3: united before, to meet her love from Afar, the lord

1739
01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:41,160
Speaker 3: of Sinjapond.

1740
01:36:41,760 --> 01:36:44,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, an impressive ending here, because then we're left

1741
01:36:44,920 --> 01:36:50,320
Speaker 2: with Gokuin on the like the edge of this tremendous waterfall.

1742
01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:54,360
Speaker 2: And this is actually Igazoo Falls in Brazil, so there's

1743
01:36:54,520 --> 01:36:56,960
Speaker 2: not a Japanese location, but they needed something that just

1744
01:36:57,160 --> 01:37:01,320
Speaker 2: seemed like this cataclysmic, you know, this much water has

1745
01:37:01,360 --> 01:37:05,720
Speaker 2: been unleashed by demon Pond and to your point, the

1746
01:37:05,800 --> 01:37:08,439
Speaker 2: idea that the world has just been shaken and changed

1747
01:37:08,479 --> 01:37:08,840
Speaker 2: by it.

1748
01:37:09,240 --> 01:37:13,240
Speaker 3: The entire landscape is transformed into these rocks and waterfalls,

1749
01:37:13,280 --> 01:37:17,040
Speaker 3: and only the belfry is left, the only structure of

1750
01:37:17,120 --> 01:37:20,639
Speaker 3: human creation left here is a reminder of the promise

1751
01:37:20,680 --> 01:37:22,719
Speaker 3: that was kept for so long and then broken.

1752
01:37:23,120 --> 01:37:35,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so quite a finish to the film.

1753
01:37:35,439 --> 01:37:38,000
Speaker 3: So we've talked about a lot of the themes as

1754
01:37:38,040 --> 01:37:40,920
Speaker 3: we went through talking about the plot, but it's just

1755
01:37:41,040 --> 01:37:43,600
Speaker 3: so rich with things to think about the way the

1756
01:37:43,640 --> 01:37:47,639
Speaker 3: movie treats the relationship between humans and nature. That there

1757
01:37:47,760 --> 01:37:50,920
Speaker 3: is a power in nature that is only kind of

1758
01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:54,240
Speaker 3: barely held back, and that we are ants compared to

1759
01:37:54,280 --> 01:37:58,160
Speaker 3: the power of nature, and we just operate with complete

1760
01:37:58,160 --> 01:38:01,160
Speaker 3: obliviousness to that power most of the time and don't

1761
01:38:01,200 --> 01:38:04,839
Speaker 3: respect it at all until we do something to screw

1762
01:38:04,840 --> 01:38:08,040
Speaker 3: it up and unleash the devastating potential of that power

1763
01:38:08,120 --> 01:38:13,800
Speaker 3: upon ourselves. There's a lot about fidelity and duty, keeping promises,

1764
01:38:13,920 --> 01:38:18,240
Speaker 3: keeping to one's duties, and the difference between the kinds

1765
01:38:18,240 --> 01:38:20,640
Speaker 3: of situations people can be in, or the types of

1766
01:38:20,680 --> 01:38:25,400
Speaker 3: personalities that cause one to be to have fidelity to

1767
01:38:25,439 --> 01:38:28,120
Speaker 3: a promise or keep to a tradition versus wanting to

1768
01:38:28,240 --> 01:38:31,160
Speaker 3: violate and break it. There are, as we were talking

1769
01:38:31,160 --> 01:38:34,960
Speaker 3: about just a minute ago, these political themes where I

1770
01:38:34,960 --> 01:38:39,640
Speaker 3: think it's doing something really interesting with like trying to

1771
01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:46,880
Speaker 3: deny a kind of bloodthirsty right wing politics the authority

1772
01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:51,640
Speaker 3: of associating itself with tradition, And I think that's an

1773
01:38:51,680 --> 01:38:57,520
Speaker 3: interesting move. Talking just I think it generally is about

1774
01:38:58,800 --> 01:39:02,439
Speaker 3: that respecting tradition comes with a sense of humility. That's

1775
01:39:02,479 --> 01:39:06,919
Speaker 3: an important thing, like that one cannot actually respect tradition

1776
01:39:07,040 --> 01:39:09,720
Speaker 3: from a place of arrogance.

1777
01:39:10,439 --> 01:39:11,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, that's a great point.

1778
01:39:11,920 --> 01:39:12,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1779
01:39:12,080 --> 01:39:13,840
Speaker 2: I think in general, like this film is just such

1780
01:39:14,040 --> 01:39:18,800
Speaker 2: a fertile bed of ideas concerning these themes that you

1781
01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:22,040
Speaker 2: can I feel like you can rewatch it multiple times

1782
01:39:22,080 --> 01:39:25,880
Speaker 2: and you can sort of draw different connections each time. Yeah.

1783
01:39:25,920 --> 01:39:28,720
Speaker 2: So yeah, tremendous. Oh.

1784
01:39:28,800 --> 01:39:31,479
Speaker 3: Also, one thing I wanted to revisit. I don't know

1785
01:39:31,479 --> 01:39:33,200
Speaker 3: if you have any thoughts on this. Maybe we'll just

1786
01:39:33,240 --> 01:39:38,680
Speaker 3: have to ponder it. But demon ponder it is that

1787
01:39:38,840 --> 01:39:43,680
Speaker 3: both this movie and Pale Flower have this seems like

1788
01:39:43,800 --> 01:39:46,000
Speaker 3: or maybe it's just these two movies, who know, who knows,

1789
01:39:46,040 --> 01:39:48,120
Speaker 3: they're the only two Shanoda movies I've seen, But I

1790
01:39:48,160 --> 01:39:50,879
Speaker 3: thought it was interesting that both of them have scenes

1791
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:55,799
Speaker 3: of people talking themselves into or giving justifications for doing

1792
01:39:55,920 --> 01:40:00,360
Speaker 3: what is clearly the wrong thing to do. That's a

1793
01:40:00,520 --> 01:40:04,320
Speaker 3: process that I find very interesting, like the justifications people

1794
01:40:04,360 --> 01:40:08,240
Speaker 3: come up with for doing what's wrong. But that both

1795
01:40:08,320 --> 01:40:11,760
Speaker 3: movies have scenes where characters dwell on this. You see

1796
01:40:11,760 --> 01:40:14,880
Speaker 3: them working themselves up into doing the wrong thing.

1797
01:40:15,320 --> 01:40:20,480
Speaker 2: M yeah, yeah, that's a good point. And you know,

1798
01:40:19,960 --> 01:40:22,240
Speaker 2: we watch movies all the time where people do the

1799
01:40:22,280 --> 01:40:25,120
Speaker 2: wrong thing. If people just did the right thing, what

1800
01:40:25,200 --> 01:40:26,160
Speaker 2: kind of movie would you have?

1801
01:40:26,240 --> 01:40:26,439
Speaker 3: Though?

1802
01:40:26,520 --> 01:40:28,479
Speaker 2: Of course, sometimes people complain about that. They're like, oh,

1803
01:40:28,520 --> 01:40:30,320
Speaker 2: the characters in this movie, they were so stupid, they

1804
01:40:30,320 --> 01:40:33,719
Speaker 2: did the wrong things. But mistakes have to be made.

1805
01:40:33,760 --> 01:40:37,320
Speaker 2: That's what greases the wheels of narrative half the time.

1806
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:40,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I like that it's showing that it's not

1807
01:40:41,040 --> 01:40:44,599
Speaker 3: always easy to do the wrong thing. Sometimes it takes work. Yeah,

1808
01:40:44,800 --> 01:40:46,920
Speaker 3: like sometimes you got to really convince yourself.

1809
01:40:47,040 --> 01:40:47,479
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1810
01:40:47,600 --> 01:40:52,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and yeah, so other things. Just to mention a

1811
01:40:52,840 --> 01:40:57,280
Speaker 3: few of the things I noted about Pale Flower. One

1812
01:40:57,280 --> 01:41:01,320
Speaker 3: thing that I really liked in the cinematography of Pale Flower,

1813
01:41:01,360 --> 01:41:03,600
Speaker 3: and I wonder if you see any connections here, is

1814
01:41:03,640 --> 01:41:07,000
Speaker 3: that in Pale Flower, we see a lot of shots

1815
01:41:07,000 --> 01:41:11,840
Speaker 3: of people through other people, like the subject people in

1816
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:16,480
Speaker 3: scenes are in the background framed by people in the foreground.

1817
01:41:17,360 --> 01:41:19,920
Speaker 3: Something about that seemed kind of significant, And I don't

1818
01:41:19,960 --> 01:41:21,920
Speaker 3: really know if there was an equivalent to that in

1819
01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:24,320
Speaker 3: Demon Pond, but you just wanted to throw it at you.

1820
01:41:24,360 --> 01:41:28,280
Speaker 2: Having not seen that other film, You do you think

1821
01:41:28,320 --> 01:41:31,760
Speaker 2: it sort of frames the interconnectedness or social dynamics of

1822
01:41:31,840 --> 01:41:35,040
Speaker 2: different groups, because I could it would be interesting to

1823
01:41:35,040 --> 01:41:37,320
Speaker 2: go back and look at some of the especially the

1824
01:41:37,439 --> 01:41:40,400
Speaker 2: townsfolk scenes in this movie with that in mind.

1825
01:41:40,800 --> 01:41:43,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I guess that would be interesting. A lot

1826
01:41:43,320 --> 01:41:48,519
Speaker 3: of times it creates a feeling of social claustrophobia but

1827
01:41:48,560 --> 01:41:52,760
Speaker 3: also alienation. Like it something about the way these people

1828
01:41:52,800 --> 01:41:56,920
Speaker 3: are framed suggests that they are surrounded by people and

1829
01:41:57,000 --> 01:42:00,080
Speaker 3: can't get away, but also do not fit in and

1830
01:42:00,280 --> 01:42:01,759
Speaker 3: are not part of the group.

1831
01:42:01,920 --> 01:42:05,160
Speaker 2: Oh wow, very much, very much on point with this

1832
01:42:05,200 --> 01:42:09,040
Speaker 2: film as well, that we see those themes explored multiple times.

1833
01:42:09,280 --> 01:42:13,200
Speaker 3: Another thing that's pretty cool in Pale Flower is a

1834
01:42:13,400 --> 01:42:16,320
Speaker 3: focus on physical ritual, which you can definitely see in

1835
01:42:16,320 --> 01:42:19,080
Speaker 3: this movie. In Pale Flower, it's not religious ritual. There's

1836
01:42:19,200 --> 01:42:21,320
Speaker 3: no religion at all that I recall in that movie,

1837
01:42:21,360 --> 01:42:25,080
Speaker 3: but a big focus on ritualized gambling scenes. So the

1838
01:42:25,160 --> 01:42:28,879
Speaker 3: characters go to these gambling parlors and we see the

1839
01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:33,240
Speaker 3: cycle of the games repeat with these there are a

1840
01:42:33,240 --> 01:42:36,240
Speaker 3: lot of sights and sounds that happen in sequence over

1841
01:42:36,280 --> 01:42:39,320
Speaker 3: and over, and they're kind of hypnotic. With the dealers

1842
01:42:39,520 --> 01:42:42,800
Speaker 3: in these gambling in these games, chanting as they call

1843
01:42:42,880 --> 01:42:45,680
Speaker 3: for bets, and the clacking of these cards as they

1844
01:42:45,680 --> 01:42:48,760
Speaker 3: go through to the next motion seem to very I

1845
01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:51,480
Speaker 3: don't know, I noticed a connection there with the emphasis

1846
01:42:51,479 --> 01:42:53,799
Speaker 3: on the physical process of ritual in this movie.

1847
01:42:53,920 --> 01:42:58,439
Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, I don't know enough about say, American gambling culture.

1848
01:42:58,479 --> 01:43:01,960
Speaker 2: Really the comment I'm wondering, are we seeing something We're

1849
01:43:01,960 --> 01:43:05,400
Speaker 2: talking about something distinctly Japanese, because there certainly plenty of

1850
01:43:05,400 --> 01:43:08,559
Speaker 2: examples where like the Japanese version of the thing takes

1851
01:43:08,600 --> 01:43:13,280
Speaker 2: on like additional physical ritual in a very evocative way.

1852
01:43:13,320 --> 01:43:15,719
Speaker 2: Like just thinking, this is not a maybe this doesn't

1853
01:43:15,720 --> 01:43:17,559
Speaker 2: compare greatly with what we're talking about, but I think

1854
01:43:17,600 --> 01:43:21,240
Speaker 2: of like cocktail culture in Japan, something I have gotten,

1855
01:43:21,600 --> 01:43:23,680
Speaker 2: I have had the opportunity to witness firsthand, with like

1856
01:43:23,720 --> 01:43:26,479
Speaker 2: the shaving of the ice and the way a drink

1857
01:43:26,560 --> 01:43:29,120
Speaker 2: is prepared and it takes on, it has a sort

1858
01:43:29,120 --> 01:43:30,320
Speaker 2: of theater all its own.

1859
01:43:30,720 --> 01:43:35,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, there's a feeling of care and attention taken

1860
01:43:35,520 --> 01:43:38,519
Speaker 3: at multiple steps than a process that are repeated over

1861
01:43:38,560 --> 01:43:43,200
Speaker 3: and over, and a big emphasis on interesting and pleasing

1862
01:43:43,280 --> 01:43:46,559
Speaker 3: repeated sites and sounds as we go through those steps

1863
01:43:46,560 --> 01:43:52,240
Speaker 3: over and over. Yeah. Yeah, anyway, so I recommend Pale Flower. Also, I'm,

1864
01:43:52,520 --> 01:43:54,519
Speaker 3: like I said, I'm a new Shinoda fan. Now I

1865
01:43:54,600 --> 01:43:57,000
Speaker 3: want to see all these movies, all right.

1866
01:43:57,040 --> 01:43:59,240
Speaker 2: Well, as we close out here, we would love to

1867
01:43:59,280 --> 01:44:01,599
Speaker 2: hear from folks out there who have thoughts on other

1868
01:44:01,640 --> 01:44:05,600
Speaker 2: Shinoda movies or certainly Demon Pond. If you had the

1869
01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:08,559
Speaker 2: chance to see it back in the day and whatever

1870
01:44:08,680 --> 01:44:11,200
Speaker 2: form was available to you, or if you've had the

1871
01:44:11,280 --> 01:44:13,080
Speaker 2: chance to see it on the big screen or via

1872
01:44:13,680 --> 01:44:16,519
Speaker 2: the Criterion releases, let us know we would love to

1873
01:44:16,560 --> 01:44:18,559
Speaker 2: hear from you. We'd love to carry this discussion on

1874
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:22,960
Speaker 2: into future episodes of Listener Mail. Just a reminder for

1875
01:44:23,000 --> 01:44:24,960
Speaker 2: everyone out there that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is

1876
01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:28,640
Speaker 2: primarily a science and culture podcast, but on Fridays we

1877
01:44:28,680 --> 01:44:30,880
Speaker 2: set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a

1878
01:44:30,880 --> 01:44:34,200
Speaker 2: weird film on Weird House Cinema. And we've been doing

1879
01:44:34,280 --> 01:44:36,439
Speaker 2: these episodes for a while while Now I was looking back,

1880
01:44:36,479 --> 01:44:38,080
Speaker 2: it's like, have we been doing like five years of

1881
01:44:38,120 --> 01:44:40,000
Speaker 2: Weird House cinema? Is that even possible?

1882
01:44:40,040 --> 01:44:40,559
Speaker 3: Could it be?

1883
01:44:40,680 --> 01:44:41,000
Speaker 2: Really?

1884
01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:42,080
Speaker 3: I guess that's right.

1885
01:44:42,160 --> 01:44:45,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe so we've been doing it all wet as.

1886
01:44:45,000 --> 01:44:47,760
Speaker 3: Like it just started. Really the past five years have

1887
01:44:47,800 --> 01:44:48,920
Speaker 3: been meant something.

1888
01:44:49,040 --> 01:44:52,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we started during the pandemic. I think yeah,

1889
01:44:52,640 --> 01:44:55,280
Speaker 2: we did yeah, early, early and pandemic. So at this

1890
01:44:55,360 --> 01:44:58,680
Speaker 2: point we've covered a slew of films. So if you

1891
01:44:58,720 --> 01:45:00,640
Speaker 2: want to go back and look at all of them,

1892
01:45:00,680 --> 01:45:03,679
Speaker 2: you'll find a full archive of Weird House Cinema episodes

1893
01:45:03,680 --> 01:45:05,559
Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts in the Stuff to Blow

1894
01:45:05,600 --> 01:45:09,960
Speaker 2: your Mind podcast feed. Also, if you're on letterbox dot com,

1895
01:45:10,000 --> 01:45:11,960
Speaker 2: look us up there. Our username is weird House and

1896
01:45:12,040 --> 01:45:13,639
Speaker 2: we have a nice list of all the movies we've

1897
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:15,920
Speaker 2: covered over the years, and sometimes there's a peek ahead

1898
01:45:15,920 --> 01:45:16,960
Speaker 2: at what comes out next.

1899
01:45:17,360 --> 01:45:21,000
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Jjposway.

1900
01:45:21,160 --> 01:45:22,559
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1901
01:45:22,640 --> 01:45:24,920
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1902
01:45:24,960 --> 01:45:26,920
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1903
01:45:27,000 --> 01:45:29,360
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact apt Stuff to Blow

1904
01:45:29,400 --> 01:45:44,040
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

1905
01:45:37,160 --> 01:45:40,120
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

1906
01:45:40,200 --> 01:45:43,000
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1907
01:45:43,160 --> 01:45:46,400
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