1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: This episode was recorded on May twenty first, before Trump 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: picked his running mate jd Vance. 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 2: Can I just tell you it's even more cowardly than that, though, 4 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 2: because they might tell you that they're scared of violence, 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: and maybe there's a fleeting thought of that, but it's 6 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 2: like they really just are scared of criticism, like they 7 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 2: don't want to get yelled at in the airport, Like literally, 8 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 2: it's more of that. The more acute concern is I 9 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: don't want to be walking through the airport with my 10 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: wife and have people be like you're trader, you suck. 11 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 3: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry o'she. 12 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 4: I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, 13 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 4: living undercover all around the. 14 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 5: World, and in my thirty three years with the CIA, 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 5: I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. 16 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 4: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we 17 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 4: created conspiracies. 18 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 5: In our operations. We got people to believe things that 19 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 5: weren't true. 20 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 4: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the 21 00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 4: news almost every day. 22 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 5: We'll break them down for you to determine whether they 23 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 5: could be real or whether we're being manipulated. 24 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 4: Welcome to mission implausible. 25 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 3: I don't think you've ever seen me like this. 26 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 6: I'm super excited to bring on Tim Miller to the show, 27 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 6: John and Jerry. I've been telling you how excited I 28 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 6: am to talk to Tim, because Tim, you're like this 29 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 6: almost non existent thing. You're someone in politics who has 30 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 6: somehow maintained I think, many of your core principles, but 31 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 6: has actually adjusted to realities on the ground by speaking 32 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 6: truth to power. How do we introduce you? I mean, 33 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 6: you had a variety of roles in Republican politics. Do 34 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 6: you want to give us a quick highlight? 35 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 3: Sure? 36 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 2: I appreciate that very much. I'm doing my best. It 37 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: definitely strayed for a while, and I'm doing my best 38 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 2: now to be the shepherd. And yeah. So I was 39 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: a spokesperson for a bunch of Republican presidential campaigns as 40 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 2: McCain first in Iowa and then Huntsman and then Romney 41 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: after he beat us in twenty twelve, and then I 42 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: was the RNC spokesperson for a while during the Romney campaign, 43 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 2: and then I was Jeblish's spokesperson in twenty sixteen, and 44 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 2: then after he lost, I was invited to be the 45 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 2: spokesperson for a group called Our Principal's Pack, which was 46 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: a proto Lincoln project. One of the main differences, though, 47 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: was every member of that pack except me and one 48 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 2: other person, ended up supporting Donald Trump in the general 49 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 2: election after we failed, which was pretty strange since the 50 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: only principle of Our Principal's Pack was that Donald Trump 51 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 2: was not acceptable. So that was the beginning of my disillusionment, 52 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: I think. And yeah, that takes me to now. I'm 53 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 2: out of that game. I'm in the media business. I 54 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: host the Board podcast and happy to be here with 55 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: you guys. 56 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 6: Yeah, and the Bullwark, Well, you guys do a lot 57 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 6: of conversations that are I think, just vital for this time. 58 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 6: It's a weird island of stability. I live in Vermont, 59 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 6: where we have weirdly a functional bipartisan legislature with a 60 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 6: reasonable Republican governor. And I live in an island. And 61 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 6: then I walked the Bulwark, and I pretend every now 62 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 6: and then that I live in a world of rational discussion. 63 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 2: The Vermonck governor is like the Bulwark mascot. He's like 64 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 2: Scott one left. Yeah, he's the only one left. 65 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 66 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 6: Yeah, So we're obviously going to head towards the fact 67 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 6: that literally, to have a job as a Republican today, 68 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 6: you have to actively profess belief in a conspiracy theory. 69 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 3: That's the anti that's the answer to san poker. 70 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 6: Yeah, why don't we start there? Can you walk us 71 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 6: through what is going on in the Republican Party? 72 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, tell me you guys, maybe Jerry and John, we 73 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 2: can offer the psychological analysis of what it is of 74 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 2: this dominance play I guess by Donald Trump because I 75 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: think a lot of it is instinctual with him more 76 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: than a strategy. I think to be backed into this 77 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: just because he was a child, you can't accept that 78 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: he lost, right, But as he consolidated power following January 79 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: sixth as all these weak quizzlings like Lindsey Graham and 80 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 2: Kevin McCarthy lost their resolve and kind of went down 81 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: to pay homage to him in order to rationalize another 82 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: term in twenty twenty four, the big lie that he 83 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: created because he was a manchild needed to become real 84 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: because that was the central argument for his candidacy, that 85 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 2: these people stole this from me, that they stole it 86 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: from you. By extension to the MAGA voters, and now 87 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 2: whatever the country's going to shit or whatever the argument 88 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 2: is as a result of this theft, and I need 89 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: to be restored back to power and in order to 90 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: rectify that great crime. So if you're in the conspiracy, 91 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 2: if you're in the world where you believe the conspiracy, 92 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: like that is the framework, and that was a framework 93 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: that gave him total control over the party. It was 94 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: impossible for Ron Decantis, even had he been a more 95 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: charismatic candidate, to undermine that core argument. If the voters 96 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 2: believed this, that Trump was robbed and everything was great 97 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: under him, and if it would just be fixed, if 98 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 2: we got him back in there, then what was the 99 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 2: point of going for a discount Trump? So it was 100 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 2: really the central rationale of his decision to run again 101 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,559 Speaker 2: for president, with I think a subrationalf trying to stat 102 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 2: of jail. Much Now there's no room within the party 103 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 2: to run counter to that, and so there are two 104 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: lovers to this, like one at the candidate lever. The 105 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 2: voters are holding the candidates accountable, not Trump, right. Voters 106 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: want candidates that are totally loyal to Trump, and the 107 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: best way to demonstrate whether they're loyal is whether or 108 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 2: not that they will state this lie. And then at 109 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: the staffing level, I think Trump looks back at twenty 110 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: sixteen and thinks that his main flaw is that he 111 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: had too many people around them who weren't loyal, and 112 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: obviously Mike Pence in the end being the prime example, 113 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 2: but there have been many examples, and so this time 114 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: they are, you know, rectifying that I look back in 115 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: twenty sixteen to twenty and I see a lot of mistakes, 116 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 2: but they look back and they see this one mistake, 117 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 2: you know, that they did not have loyal people around them. 118 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 2: And so that now is part of the RNC staffing. 119 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: We've got Lara Trump there, you know, as a co 120 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: chair making sure that people stand line. 121 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,919 Speaker 6: Can you make that explicit? Like if I wanted a 122 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 6: job at the rn C today, what would I have 123 00:05:59,160 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 6: to do? 124 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I haven't gone through the interview process. I 125 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: don't know for sure, but you know, basically the reports 126 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 2: are from people that were, you know, because what happened 127 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: was so a bunch of people got fired and they're 128 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 2: interviewing to be rehired, and during that process, reports which 129 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 2: I have no reason to doubt, said that they were 130 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: asked about their views about the twenty twenty election, and 131 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 2: so is every employee asked about that. I don't know, 132 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: but the signal is put out right, like there is 133 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 2: a there's an environment within the building that's this is 134 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 2: not something that you speak out about. There was like 135 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 2: an early kind of like an embryonic example of this 136 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: when Trump was still trying to figure all this out 137 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 2: and like how much he could control. The RNC was 138 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen. This is a lifetime ago. A lot 139 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 2: of people might not remember this because it feels like 140 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 2: Trump's owned the party for so long now, But in 141 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 2: early twenty seventeen, the RNC still was a lot of 142 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 2: like my for old friends, right, like literally is like 143 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 2: my co workers. So it's people that worked for Mitt 144 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 2: Romney who was not Maga ideologues. And so there were 145 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: some of them that got fully on board with Trump, 146 00:06:58,240 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: and then there are others that just kept their job 147 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 2: and said, oh, whatever, I'm an institutionalist, we'll ride out 148 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 2: this wave. So one of those people, a friend of mine, 149 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 2: was at the committee, and various times Trump would be like, 150 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: do some lie, like, oh, we had the biggest inauguration 151 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: effort or whatever, and then reporters would go to the 152 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: rn C and say do you know the RNC spokesperson, 153 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 2: do you agree with us? And my friend who is 154 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 2: over there in the communications department set on calls that 155 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: they would suggest that, okay, we don't need to weigh 156 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: in on this one, we don't need to go along 157 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: with Trump's lies on this one, like let's just stay 158 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: out of it. And that happened one time, and the 159 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: people like okay, And then it happened another time He's overruled, 160 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 2: and having another time he was overruled. And then after 161 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: the third time, he got a phone call from Jared 162 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: Kushner who was just like, hey, man, do we have problems. 163 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 2: I hear that you've been expressing on conference called some 164 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: concerns about the message here, and like my friend shut 165 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: up eventually found a new job and was replaced with 166 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: I don't know, some maga maga, you know, maga bought. 167 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 2: But that all takes time, right, Like it takes time 168 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: for everybody to get churned out, and like the people 169 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: who won't go along get turned out. The people who 170 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: were establishment before, like at least stephonics switch sides, and 171 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 2: then the new people coming in or all maga, and 172 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: so there is like this slow rolling process of vetting 173 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 2: to make sure people are on board. And now we're 174 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 2: in the final formation of that where the RNC is 175 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 2: literally asking people about this, maybe not every higher but 176 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: enough hires that the word is out that you can't 177 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 2: undermine them. And then at the candidate level, like I said, 178 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: voters are voting for this, and then on the outside 179 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 2: you have the Heritage Foundation that's now preparing for if 180 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: Trump were to win. They are doing like these massive 181 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 2: social media vets, massive deep dives and real social media. 182 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: And the craziest example that I've heard is somebody who's like, oh, 183 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 2: somebody who's liking Tailor Swift posts. Then they threw the 184 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 2: person out because it was like, now, okay, that's a 185 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 2: sign that they're too. Is that an old wife? I 186 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 2: don't know. That's like word of mouth directionally, that's what's happening. 187 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: Like they are vetting potential appointees for twenty twenty five 188 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: and going through their social media history and making sure 189 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: there's no apostasy against Trump and obviously that they're not 190 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 2: undermining the big live about twenty twenty Yeah. 191 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 5: Tip. The impetus for this particular topic was a guy 192 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 5: the named of Charlie Speace and our Republican National Committee. 193 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 2: Layd Charlie is my lawyer for a while. 194 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 5: Top Flight Guy was hired in March by the Trump 195 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 5: and the Trump team, and just a couple of weeks 196 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 5: ago in May he resigned. And according to the Post 197 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 5: and sources, and he's not denying it, it was he 198 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 5: basically said, I don't want to lie. There's no evidence 199 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,599 Speaker 5: that Trump won twenty twenty. Show me the evidence and 200 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 5: I'll say it, but I'm not gonna lie about it. 201 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 5: And essentially he said the Emperor has no clothes and 202 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 5: he was pushed out. And the question I have for 203 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 5: you and for everybody else is where does party, loyalty 204 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 5: and cultish territory begin. Right, fealty to the great Leader. 205 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 5: John and I in our past lives we dealt with 206 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 5: a lot of dictators. Kim Chung un now is the 207 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 5: great comrade. Every birthday the entire country swears a loyalty 208 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 5: oath to him. Where they all lie, right, They all 209 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 5: say that he's the greatest leader ever, that North creates 210 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 5: the gariest country ever, and they all know it's not true. 211 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 5: But where's your sense of like where this it becomes 212 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 5: like really poisonous and concerning into cultish territory. 213 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we're already deep into the kool aid 214 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 2: brother I don't know, yeah, or past the point of 215 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 2: no return on where it gets into cultish territory. The 216 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 2: Spee's incident is interesting and very telling. Charlie, like I said, 217 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 2: was one of Jeb's lawyers. He's one of the two 218 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: most prominent Republican lawyers. I just want to use this 219 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 2: moment to say the most prominent was a guy named 220 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 2: Ben Ginsberg, who also did the right thing and now 221 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: is being a grandfather and quit this bullshit because he 222 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: couldn't take it any more. Long time ago, Charlie tried 223 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 2: to walk the line and occasionally he would speak out, 224 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 2: not much. He wouldn't troll people. It was like when 225 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: it was assd One Tenant Seapack on a panel. You know, 226 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 2: he was on a panel, and he was up there 227 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 2: and he's like, I bet you're you guys are gonna 228 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 2: boo me. But I just I don't think that. There's 229 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,239 Speaker 2: just not a lot of evidences happened. He wasn't rebuking 230 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 2: them and mocking them or anything. He was just giving 231 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: the facts. And he gets any ut bood. But he 232 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 2: gets this job. I suspect, and I don't have first 233 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 2: hand information about this because they paired him with Christina. 234 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 3: Bob, who is, Oh, she's good. 235 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, she's an insane person and she's like a lawyer 236 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: slash TV person. It's like a crazy version of Andrew Weisman. 237 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,719 Speaker 2: And so she gets hired and they're like, Okay, we 238 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 2: also need a real lawyer for to hire this person. 239 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 2: So I think that they thought that they were getting 240 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 2: the best of the both worlds here a little bit, 241 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 2: like Charlie can do the real lawyer ring, she can 242 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 2: be the front woman for all the MAGA stuff. We'll 243 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: get a little bit of both. And it's telling that, 244 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 2: like it didn't take very long for like the credible 245 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 2: person to be the one that got flushed out. In 246 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: a healthy culture, it would have been Christina got flushed out, right, 247 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 2: But that's not how it works in an environment like 248 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: the culti environment that Trump has intentionally cultivated. And also 249 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: just I should have mentioned spies didn't even publicly say anything, right, 250 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 2: Like it's again, it would have been one thing if 251 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 2: it was like Spees was on t Fox and he 252 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 2: gets blindsided by a question and he speaks some wrong 253 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 2: speak about the fake election. Lie right, and they're like, 254 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 2: all right, buddy, you're out. That's how what happened. It 255 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: was private. It was like they felt like they couldn't 256 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: trut him because of private comments. That's even more chilling 257 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: to me. 258 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 5: And according to the Post, it was they went back 259 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 5: to comments that he'd made years ago. They were basically telling, 260 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 5: you need to rebuke those comments, you need to walk 261 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 5: those back. 262 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 4: Let's take a break, we'll be right back. 263 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 5: And rebec. 264 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 6: Now, Tim, when you were a staffer, I mean, you know, 265 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 6: there been changes of the guard. 266 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 3: I remember when George W. Bush came in. 267 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 6: There's a bit of tension with his dad's old cronies. 268 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 6: The Romney crue wasn't exactly the same as the W crew. 269 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 6: And you know the Dancy has had the same thing. 270 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 6: The Hillary and Obama people had to learn to get along. 271 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 6: And so how did that work when you were in 272 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 6: that world? Like I'm assuming if you're an old George W. Person, 273 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 6: you can't start saying Romney sucks. 274 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 2: It's an important point. There's a certain amount of tention 275 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 2: to Korum de Deli. So for example, I was neither 276 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 2: because I was coming in when this was happening. But 277 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 2: you know, at the RNC there was an old gard 278 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,719 Speaker 2: when Romney won the nomination in twenty twelve, it was 279 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 2: a lot of old Bush people and then you know 280 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 2: some just kind of establishment Republicans that have been in 281 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 2: the building forever, and there's always a little bit of tension. 282 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 2: The RNC chairman at the times Ryan's threevious, right, like 283 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: thinks that he should get to do what he wants 284 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: and book himself for what he wants. And now it's 285 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 2: kind of like, well, we got to make sure that 286 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 2: we're not out of line with what the nominee says. 287 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 2: So you have to take a little bit more of 288 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 2: a back seat, set your ego at the door a 289 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: little bit to be like, all of that is just 290 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 2: like healthy management of relationships that you have any time that, 291 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: like two groups are merged together. If there's a new 292 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: boss that comes to town, sometimes you got to change, 293 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 2: you know, the what processes because this boss likes to 294 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: do it like that. That's to me, that's a pretty 295 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 2: standard in a category difference from what we're talking about. 296 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 6: John, Can you think of any countries that you maybe 297 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 6: spent some time in where a similar cult of loyalty 298 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 6: was forced upon a nation. 299 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 3: I just think Russian speak. I don't know. 300 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels almost more Third world to me than 301 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know what you know. 302 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 4: How I see you brought it up when you first 303 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 4: talked about it, that a lot of this is Donald 304 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 4: Trump's personality, and to me, this is really just gangster behavior. 305 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 4: You got to make sure the people around you are complicit, 306 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 4: that they've committed crimes too, so you have them by 307 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 4: the ball and the old saying. Those who can make 308 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 4: you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Once you're 309 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 4: in the conspiracy and you've lied for him, then you're 310 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 4: at his beck and call. We see this now with 311 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 4: the vice president, people who are trying to line up 312 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 4: to get the vice president position. What do you think 313 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 4: the twenty twenty four vice president litmus test or loyalty 314 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 4: tests going to be? Is it visiting the trial and 315 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 4: smearing the judge? Yeah, big lies and undermining the justice system. 316 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 3: What do you think? 317 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 2: It's just like Pence hangs over it so much, this 318 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: idea that oh if only Mike Pence had done the 319 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: right thing, and Pence wasn't a Trump guy like that 320 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 2: was a straight deal with the devil. Two ways. It 321 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 2: was a transaction. You're going to give me your little 322 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: kind of religious fairy dust here and bring the evangelicals 323 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 2: on board, and I'm going to give you a spot 324 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: than the National Party, where Pens haveve lost a lot 325 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: of altitude. His political career was kind of trying to 326 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 2: go down. This is a different animal than that. Like 327 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: Trump doesn't need to cut a deal with the evangelicals. 328 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 2: Trump thinks he's winning. So when you think about his 329 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: psyche here, it's not oh, I need to bring on 330 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: somebody because they can help me with hispanics or something. 331 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 2: He wants to bring on somebody that he knows is 332 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 2: going to go down with the ship with him. And 333 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: to me, that explains the cartoonish, absurd little apprentice vice 334 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: president that we've seen on cable news the last few weeks. 335 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: These guys, it's almost like the more they embarrass themselves 336 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: in defense of him, the more that's evidence that they'll 337 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: be able to be trusted. That's like the interesting psychological 338 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: kind of question here is does he feel like just 339 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 2: saying it, saying the lie is enough. 340 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 4: He heeds a true believer, or does he need a truth, 341 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 4: we said in Russia to Jo Palese. 342 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 6: Yeah, not just a what's a show Palese an ask licker. 343 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 3: Oh that's what you call me. 344 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: And there are plenty of those, Yeah, there are plenty 345 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 2: of those, the bad kind. You know, nothing wrong with 346 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: nothing wrong with that, but uh, plenty of the bad 347 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 2: kind out there. 348 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 5: We're talking here about the RNC and litmus tests are 349 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 5: loyalty tests. When John and I were in the Agency, 350 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 5: when we our very first day, we took a loyalty oath, 351 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 5: and that loyalty oath was to the Constitution and to 352 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 5: the ideals within that Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. 353 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 5: If and when Trump comes to power, he's talking about 354 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 5: things like I want to be a dictator. On the 355 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 5: first day, he's talking about mass firings of civil servants. 356 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 5: It's all about personal loyalty. And he's several times, according 357 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 5: to media, he's intimated and said before that he's going 358 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 5: to bring in the Insurrection Act on the very first day, 359 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 5: the Interaction Act from eighteen oh seven. There's no court 360 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 5: oversight of this. He can just do it. And so 361 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 5: you know, all terrible conversations go back to Nazi Germany, 362 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 5: but I studied in Germany, right, and this is a 363 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 5: history major. Hitler famously was elected, right, he was elected chancellor, 364 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 5: but Hindenburg was the president, and Hindenburg was going to 365 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 5: make sure he didn't do anything crazy. The day Hindenburg 366 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 5: died to August nineteen thirty four, I think it was 367 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 5: that very same day, Hitler demanded and got the German 368 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:36,239 Speaker 5: army to swear an oath of loyalty to him, not 369 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 5: to the people or the fatherland, which is what it 370 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 5: had always been up until that. And a year later 371 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 5: he made all civil servants swear loyalty to him. Right, 372 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 5: So we're talking about a guy so far in the 373 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 5: RNC who's talking about intense loyalty to him. We're talking 374 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 5: about a guy saying he can launch the insurrection at 375 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 5: misfiring of civil servants weren't sufficiently loyal and issues with 376 00:17:58,320 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 5: the military, which he's already had. 377 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 2: There some things that we know, right, and I'm interested 378 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 2: in your personality assessment using your guys expertise, because there's 379 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: some things we know. If he gets back in there, 380 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 2: we know that it's little Himmler Stephen Miller will try 381 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: to do a very draconian immigration regime, and life's going 382 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: to be very bad for undocumented immigrants in the country. 383 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: Whether there's really camps, or whether there's really a wall, 384 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 2: whether there's really buses, or whether it's child separation. Exactly 385 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 2: what it looks like, I don't know, but it's going 386 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 2: to be really bad that we know, and that will 387 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 2: have some fascist echoes for sure. We will know that 388 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,239 Speaker 2: he will completely take over the Justice Department to make 389 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 2: sure that he's not held accountable for any crimes. And 390 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: we know that they'll help harden people that do crimes 391 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 2: on his behalf. And that's pretty dark. Those are all three, 392 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 2: like really dark bad things that we know are going 393 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 2: to happen no matter what. Okay, getting to the nightmare 394 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 2: scenario is now we get into stuff that's okay. Does 395 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 2: he want to go further than that or does he 396 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 2: want to just ride on Air Force one and make 397 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: sure that he's never going to jail again golf or 398 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: does he want to like have an American whatever Mussolini 399 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 2: and I just I don't know. On the one hand, 400 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter at least for our election purposes. I 401 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: always say to people, like, if you think that the 402 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 2: latter is a two percent chance that's still way too high. 403 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 2: We haven't had anybody that was a two percent chance 404 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 2: in any of our lifetimes. Even if you just think 405 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 2: it's a two percent chance, that's way too high, I 406 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 2: just done it. Part of me kind of thinks that, like, 407 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: he's lazy and he just wants to stay out of trouble, 408 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 2: and there'll be some dark shit that happens, and like 409 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 2: in the end, if he feels like he's protected from 410 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 2: JL hell golf. But I'm certainly not fucking confident about that. 411 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 2: I definitely think that there's a nightmare scenario that is 412 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 2: way darker than that. And I think that just the 413 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 2: baseline scenario that I brought up at the top would 414 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 2: have been unthinkable ten years ago. 415 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 4: Is the Republican Party dead? Is the old Republican Party dead? 416 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 4: Is there any life left? Like in the States, And 417 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 4: the reason I asked, I'll just read an article and 418 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 4: washing him post today about a real local political build 419 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 4: in Idaho between the extremist micro Republicans and those Republicans 420 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 4: that are hoping to save whatever is left of the 421 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 4: traditional conservative Republican Party. 422 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 2: The things are ugly in Idaho. The Republican is not 423 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 2: going back in the way of we were talking to 424 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 2: Greener about how great John McCain was. John McCain's not 425 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 2: walking through that door like John McCain and eight ran 426 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 2: on believing in climate change. We should do stuff about it. 427 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 2: Immigrants should be welcome. I like, whatever you didn't like 428 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 2: about his views on various conservative matters, if you're a 429 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 2: liberal listener, like you know, he was a mainstream center, 430 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: classically liberal, center right Republican, like that person is not 431 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 2: coming back. The best hope I have is that, like 432 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 2: if Trump just went away, I feel like the party 433 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 2: would morph into kind of like a JD Vanceism, and 434 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 2: maybe JD would not feel quite as much pressure to 435 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 2: do the as much conspiratorial shit without Donald Trump hanging 436 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 2: over his head, and then it ends up looking more 437 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 2: like a European conservative party, like a blood and soil populist. 438 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 2: I think that there are a lot of these the 439 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: old Republican types who are just voted at the voter level, 440 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 2: not at the cannon level. The voter who are just like, okay, 441 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 2: as long as the Democrats are putting up Josh Shapiro's 442 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: and Question Whimer's, that's fine with me. Like it's maybe not, 443 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 2: maybe we don't agree on everything, but like that's fine. 444 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 2: So some people do that. I think some become true 445 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 2: swing voters. An analogy I often uses the Perro voter. 446 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 2: The pro voter like didn't have a major party candidate. 447 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 2: They Buchanan in the Republican primary for little while, then 448 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 2: they voted for Parrot for little while. Then they had 449 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 2: nobody for a while, and then they had Trump. I 450 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 2: think that like the old school Republicans are just got 451 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 2: at for a while, like that, they maybe have a 452 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 2: candidate that they like in one party in one stayed 453 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 2: one primary, but they're more they turn more into the 454 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 2: swing voters. And that's one option. And then I think 455 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 2: that some of them are just their identity is so 456 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 2: attached into being a Republican that they morphed into this 457 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 2: uglier thing. That's the sad part. I think you definitely 458 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 2: get some of those. So I think it ends up 459 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 2: dividing up. And so when people are like, oh, it'll 460 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: the party will break up and then something new will come, 461 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 2: I don't know if that's quite right. I think that 462 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: it'll end up just dispersing between the three options. 463 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 6: A court mystery for me is why people want their 464 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 6: jobs so much senators and congressman. I don't even get that. 465 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 6: It doesn't seem like that great a job. I've had 466 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 6: some pretty great jobs, none of them would I have 467 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 6: lied for or. 468 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 3: But being an R and C staffer is it that awesome? 469 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 3: Does it pay a fortune? 470 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 5: Like? 471 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 6: That's the part I don't get. Don't people look at 472 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 6: like Paul Ryan and others and know like you just 473 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 6: end up back home, like trying not to look at 474 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 6: your kids in the eyes because what you've become. 475 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 2: I've had a lot of these conversations at the staff level. 476 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 2: I have to just say I am with you on 477 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 2: the candidate level, like I do not understand Marco Rubio's calculus. 478 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 2: So you want to be Donald Trump's secretary of state 479 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 2: and see you can fucking flame out and who knows 480 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,959 Speaker 2: have to be there justifying why we aren't doing anything 481 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 2: as Putin invades Georgia. I do. I've talked a lot 482 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 2: of the staffers though, so I do feel like I 483 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 2: get it, and I think that there are a couple 484 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 2: of categories. Number One, at the scariest part about all 485 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 2: this is that the youngest staffers want this. They're the craziest. 486 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 2: That is, if you're twenty five, Like, you don't really 487 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 2: even remember Mitt Romney. You know, if you're twenty five, 488 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 2: you were thirteen during the Mitt Romney Obama campaign. You've 489 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 2: chosen to be in Republican politics because you're into the 490 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 2: Trump shit. You're kind of like into the fascy stuff 491 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 2: at some level. So the youngest staffers are they're doing 492 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 2: it because they're into it. That's the scariest part. The 493 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 2: oldest types that like rationalize all of it. It's like 494 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 2: anything else in life. Man, how many conferences have I 495 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 2: had with people like my kids are in high school, 496 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 2: I got three college tuitions coming up I gotta pay for. 497 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 2: I'm just trying to keep my head down, keep doing 498 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 2: this job. The middle ground folks, I think are the 499 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: toughest because they need to have the courage to say, no, 500 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 2: I'm going to go away from this. I'm going to 501 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 2: start another career and it's going to be fine. And 502 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 2: I'm thirty and I got plenty of time. But some 503 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: of them are like, ooh, that seems scary. Oh it's 504 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 2: better just to go along to get along. Maybe this 505 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 2: ll end sometime. And there's another category I guess of 506 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 2: people that they're getting awesome jobs because they wouldn't have 507 00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 2: had them. 508 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 3: Before, right, because people like you left competitive. 509 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 2: Man, I have young Democrats to come out to me. 510 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 2: They're like, man, I want to work for Abgail Spanberger 511 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 2: or a lista slock In or like one of these 512 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 2: less more like one of these up andcoming people. But 513 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 2: there are a million young Democrats who are smart and talented, 514 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: went to great schools that want these jobs. It's very competitive. 515 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 6: So we need, like Sean Panner, someone to take over 516 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 6: our party. 517 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, if you want to go work for you know, 518 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,199 Speaker 2: fucking Lara Trump, the line is short, and so you 519 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 2: can go get a job that you never would have 520 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 2: had for Mitt Romney or George Bush. And that kind 521 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 2: of ambition side of it also drives a bunch of us. 522 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 6: All right, we're gonna get right back into that, but 523 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 6: first let's hear this all right, back to the show. 524 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 6: So in Iraq, I had the experience of talking to 525 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 6: former Bathists and there was like the real interesting Saddam 526 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 6: Bathists like that, like basically his relatives, and they were 527 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 6: just obviously all in. There's down at the bottom. There's 528 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 6: just if you went to college, you had to be 529 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 6: a Bathist. If you wanted to teach kindergarten, you had 530 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 6: to be a bathist. They didn't really count, but there 531 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 6: was like that third and fourth level where there were 532 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 6: like managing directors of some factory, or like an associate 533 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 6: dean of Baghdad University or something. I felt, this is 534 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 6: a feeling that looking in their eyes, these were hollow 535 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 6: They're mostly men, These were hollow men, and that I 536 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 6: felt I saw a pain and a kind of something 537 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 6: pathetic in them. And I mean that in the technical 538 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 6: sense of the word that I don't feel like I 539 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 6: see that much in. 540 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 3: The United States. 541 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 6: These were people who had compromised at a deep level 542 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 6: and knew it, and now the bill had come due. 543 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 6: You've worked with regime stooges. 544 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 3: All over the world. 545 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 6: I think I could argue you both were regime sto officers. 546 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 6: Am I picking up on something you've seen like around 547 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 6: the Kremlin or old Afghan folks or in Africa? 548 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 4: The average person is sort of a coward and go 549 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 4: along to get along and just find the path of 550 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 4: least resistance. I think what we're seeing now and I 551 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 4: would guess and I'd be just going to hear timsats 552 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 4: on this is I think some of these politicians are 553 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 4: now afraid of the voters. They're afraid of the violence. Yeah, 554 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 4: they want to suck up to Donald Trump because they're ambitious, 555 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 4: but they also are afraid of saying the wrong thing 556 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 4: because the nut jobs is going to be coming after 557 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 4: them and their families forever. And so in this that sense, 558 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 4: the cowardly thing to do is just lie and get along. 559 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 2: And can I just tell you it's even more cowardly 560 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 2: than that, though, because they might tell you that they're 561 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 2: scared of violence, and maybe there's a fleeting thought of that, 562 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 2: but it's like they really just are scared of criticism, 563 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 2: Like they don't want to get yelled at in the airport, 564 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 2: like literally, it's more that, like the more acute concern 565 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 2: is I don't want to be walking through the airport 566 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 2: with my wife and have people being like you're a trader, 567 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 2: you suck. I just don't have a lot of sympathy 568 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 2: for the violence side of it. I think that's a 569 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 2: real potential threat out there. But really, is Ron Johnson 570 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 2: really acutely scared that someone's going to come to his house? 571 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 2: I don't know, more scared than a poll worker who 572 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 2: lets to go to sit at the polls all day 573 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 2: or somebody like anyway, I don't know. 574 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 5: So for Saddam's guys or people like that Mcgabi's guys 575 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 5: or North Koreans, it's partially that. Yeah, I think they're 576 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 5: genuinely afraid that if they speak out, that'll be the 577 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 5: end of them and the end of their family. So 578 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 5: for guys like in Saddam or Mugabi's guys, they're genuinely 579 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 5: afraid for themselves if they step out a line, physically afraid, 580 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 5: but also afraid for their families. But the regime doesn't 581 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 5: just frighten them, it also gives them something. So Saddam 582 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 5: they had the big lie. The big lie was that 583 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 5: Sunnis are the majority, right, and they demonstrably weren't. They're 584 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 5: only like twenty five percent of the population. But the 585 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 5: Saddam claimed they were the majority, and therefore they had 586 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 5: to stay in power. And the other thing is he 587 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 5: gave them was a sense of nationalism, like we're the greatest, right, Adam. 588 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 5: You've seen a lot of the Saddam's propaganda, you know, 589 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 5: we're the chosen ones, Bagdad. And the time of the 590 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 5: glories of the Arab civilization when we look at parts 591 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 5: of the US today, it's like they're also giving that 592 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 5: sense of we're the best, we're the majority, and that's 593 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 5: also demonstrably not true. Ye. 594 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 6: By the way, you talked about the Sunni Saddam loyalists. 595 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 6: The guy who ran my house when I was in 596 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 6: Iraq was from a Shia Saddam loyalist family too. Yeah, 597 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 6: And I was looking for a security guard and he said, oh, 598 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 6: get my uncle, he's great. And his uncle came up 599 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 6: and we found out that his uncle moved from Nadjeff 600 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 6: to Baghdad because he was being hunted by Shia death 601 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 6: squads because he was a Saddam loyalist Shia. 602 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 3: So I was like, oh, that's a great security guard. Yeah. 603 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Can I just say nobody in Congress is worried 604 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 2: about the Shia death squads right from exactly, I'm like 605 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 2: a little bit less sympathetic. I get in trouble sometimes 606 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 2: on panels like on this, but I'm just like, I 607 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 2: just don't sympathize for this. With that, I think that 608 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 2: there are a lot of people that are in greater threat. 609 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 4: The right wing off and talks about cancel culture and 610 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,959 Speaker 4: a mob and this and that, but we've seen. If 611 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 4: you don't play along, if you don't mimic the lie, 612 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 4: Liz Cheney loses your job, Adam Kinzinger's and Chris Christie's, 613 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 4: the Mitt Romney's and Will Hurds. Yes, if we're going 614 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 4: to talk colarities, and that's not the biggest deal in 615 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 4: the world, but you do get kicked. 616 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 2: Out, the whole thing is just inverted. It's all Orwellian. 617 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 2: It's like the best thing that can happen to you 618 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 2: in Republican politics is to get canceled for saying something offensive. 619 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 3: Right. 620 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 2: Then they'll be like, oh, welle is me The left 621 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 2: is coming for me? Like the last person to get 622 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 2: actually canceled in Republican world for saying something far right 623 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 2: with Steve King a long time ago. So yeah, I 624 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: mean that all is just a farce. 625 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 6: If I was an intelligence officer for another country, this 626 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 6: is such ripe hunting grounds. You have some huge number 627 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 6: of people in what may be the ruling party who 628 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 6: feel a sense of shame, who feel they're being forced 629 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 6: into weird positions like how would you look at this 630 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 6: if you or a spy for one of our adversaries. 631 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 4: That's how we spent spying during the Cold Wars, you're 632 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 4: looking for those people who know that they're lying, and 633 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 4: they're ashamed or embarrassed by it, and it has affected 634 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 4: them or their family or their career in some way. 635 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 4: You get a long and you can go fine for 636 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 4: a long time, lying and supporting the regime, but at 637 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 4: some point you realize the regime is corrupt and they 638 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 4: don't really care about you, And so they thought that 639 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 4: being the smartest and they if they followed the rules, 640 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 4: they would succeed in their family succeed. At some point 641 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 4: in that career you realize the whole things are farce 642 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 4: and it's all corrupt and it doesn't work. And those 643 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 4: are the people you're looking for, the ones that finally 644 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 4: broke and are willing to admit, at least to a 645 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 4: foreigner who can keep it secret, that they don't buy 646 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 4: it anymore. And those are the people who become our spies. Yeah, 647 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 4: but I don't know if these politics and it cares 648 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 4: what our politicians think about things. They don't have the secrets. 649 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 4: It hasn't infected. I don't think the institutions terribly yet. 650 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 4: But if Trump wins and if the loyalty tests worked 651 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 4: way down through the FBI and the CIA, in the 652 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 4: State Department, all this kind of place Justice Department. There's 653 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 4: going to be people there who have those kind of 654 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 4: feelings that foreigners will be looking for. 655 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 5: If two grooms show up for this wedding on January twentieth, right, 656 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 5: if Trump says he wins and Biden says he wins, 657 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 5: regardless of who Biden wins and Trump says, no, no, 658 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 5: I didn't, You're going to have divided loyalties once you 659 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 5: no longer agree on the peaceful transfer of power and legitimacy. 660 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 5: Now you've got a problem with military officers and security services. Right, 661 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 5: are you serving the correct president? And so you know 662 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 5: that is vulnerability. I think that Russians and others would 663 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 5: take regardless of who eventually wins, Right, I mean, if 664 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 5: Trump says he won, and he shows up to be 665 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 5: you know, tries to shove Biden out of the way 666 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 5: to get his hand on the Bible to swear in, 667 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 5: there are going to be people who are saying, no, 668 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 5: he's right, And I think that the Russians are going 669 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:50,959 Speaker 5: to go after those folks. 670 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 2: How many Michael Flynn's do you think we got in 671 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 2: the military right now? The Michael Flynn thing was extremely alarming. 672 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 2: He was a national security advisor to Obama and to 673 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 2: go full red pill and now, I mean he like 674 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 2: fully believes all of the conspiracies about the elections in 675 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 2: Russia and Ukraine and the corrupt Ukrainians and Biden, everything, 676 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 2: you name it. When you talk about that nightmare scenario, 677 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 2: that's the worrying thing, Like, how many of these guys 678 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 2: in those positions either believe this or willing to pretend 679 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 2: they believe it because they have resentments about liberals or something. 680 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 2: I don't know. 681 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 4: That's a serious concerns, but in the military and positions 682 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 4: of power like that tremendous concern I mean, I know 683 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 4: Mike Flynn, I know fairly well. He's sort of the 684 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 4: Peter principle at work. People have forgotten what that is. 685 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 4: You know, you rise to your level of incompetence. And 686 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 4: so he got promoted to a point where he was 687 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 4: a complete failure as the director of DIA. He got fired. 688 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 4: But then his ego or whatever couldn't handle the fact 689 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 4: that he was pushed out and had to come up 690 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 4: with alternative reasons. Oh, it was because Obama didn't like me, 691 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 4: because I was going after terrorists or something. He made 692 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 4: up a lie that he needed for his own ego 693 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 4: to believe. And of course then when he gets fired 694 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 4: again from the Trump anddministration, he's got to double down. 695 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 4: And at the same time he's looking to make as 696 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 4: much money as he possibly can. In fact, he was 697 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 4: working for a while for a crystal group where I 698 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 4: was for a while, and he was doing everything he 699 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 4: could to make money. So he's working for Russians in 700 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 4: Egypt that were doing nuclear power, and he was he 701 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 4: went to Moscow to do things, and the Turk was 702 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 4: the Turks, yeah, I mean, and so all of those 703 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 4: things come about. 704 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 6: The only thing he was going to do for the 705 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 6: Turks was kidnapped an American CITI and non American soil. 706 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 5: But yeah, not just the military, but I think there's 707 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 5: real concern talking to colleagues who are out now, to 708 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 5: be very clear, not nobody on the inside, but among formers, 709 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 5: there's real concern that CIA and FBI and DOJ could 710 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 5: be weaponized. We've always pushed back on that. We've always 711 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 5: been a political, nonpartisan, served Democrat Republican administrations as best 712 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 5: we could, but we've always taken a pride in trying 713 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 5: to push back now always successfully. What differentiation us from 714 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 5: like Russians and North Koreans is their security services are 715 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 5: there to protect the regis and ours isn't. Ours is 716 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 5: there to protect the constitution, and we're not there to 717 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 5: protect any particular president. Especially with the FBI, that could 718 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 5: that could change if you had the wrong. 719 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 3: People in there. 720 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 6: I did a lot of reporting of the Trump organization 721 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 6: because at the New Yorker my job was covering Trump's 722 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 6: business side. I talked to a lot of people who 723 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 6: had worked there for many years. Most of them thought 724 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 6: he was kind of an idiot. And I think it's 725 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 6: not much of an organization. It's more a platform for 726 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 6: people to run their own scams and deals. But way 727 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 6: one lawyer explained it to me is when you're hired, 728 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 6: he gives you a little test and he asks you 729 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 6: to do something an ethical or maybe illegal. Yeah, and 730 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 6: then he but the guy said, if you don't do it, 731 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 6: they still need lawyers to like write contracts and just 732 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 6: do the business of a business. And so you he 733 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 6: wouldn't fire you. You were allowed to stick around. And 734 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 6: then he had his little cronies, Weiselberg and Cohen and whatever, 735 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 6: and you knew who the inside guys were, but you 736 00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 6: thought they were jokes and lame. 737 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 2: With regards to that. He didn't like to fire people. 738 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 3: He is a coversal column. Yeah, yeah, there's a story. 739 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 5: And the story is your boss comes to you and 740 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 5: he gives you a package and says, this package has 741 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 5: to be to that factory in one hour. And you're like, yeah, 742 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 5: that factory is seventy miles away and the speed them 743 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 5: it's fifty five. And he says, I need you to 744 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 5: get that package there in one hour. So so you're 745 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 5: telling me that if I break the law, I get caught, 746 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 5: you'll back me, and you know, and he just looks 747 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 5: at you and he says, yeah, never mind, I'll find 748 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 5: somebody else. 749 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 2: So excited for the moral of the story here, do 750 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 2: you do it or not? 751 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 5: But the other part of the moral story is he's 752 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 5: going to find somebody else to do it, and that 753 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 5: guy may get the promotion and you may not. 754 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 3: Tim This has been bleak, joyful conversation. 755 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,439 Speaker 6: I do like that you left the possibility that it's 756 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 6: only going to mean the deep destruction of two or 757 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 6: three major American institutions. 758 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, so you left us on an optimistic. 759 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 2: Yeah there you go. Yeah, I tried it to be 760 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 2: full resistance Peorn. Maybe he'll just take over the Department 761 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 2: of Justice and be a soft autocrat and be mean 762 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,240 Speaker 2: to migrants, and then he can be replaced. 763 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 4: We hope that the incompetence takes over. 764 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 3: There's a lot of incompetence, but. 765 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 4: That's upon me all the true believers. Now that's what 766 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 4: we need to be incompetent. If they bring in true 767 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 4: believers who are good at what they do, it can 768 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 4: cause a tremendous damage. But if he brings in the 769 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 4: true boobs that you can't do anything anyway, then think 770 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:24,439 Speaker 4: they'll survive it. 771 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 3: Tim, thank you so much. 772 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 2: Thank you, guys, Real Pleasure. 773 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, 774 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: and Jonathan Sterner. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible. 775 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: It is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable Pictures 776 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 1: for iHeart Podcasts.