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Speaker 1: Hey, you guys know how, uh, you guys know how

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Speaker 1: religion is still pretty popular.

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Speaker 2: I heard tale.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that Tennessee reference, that.

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Speaker 2: Georgia reference.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I'll amend it. I like a Southern Americana reference.

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Speaker 3: There you go. Oh for sure, it's kind of a

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Speaker 3: big deal religion.

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Speaker 1: Yes, then as now. In the ancient days, medicine and

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Speaker 1: spirituality were intertwined, right and inextricable and inseparable, and so

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Speaker 1: people would use rituals and vacations attempting to ask for

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Speaker 1: help right on the physical plane from divine sources. And

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Speaker 1: back in twenty twenty we got super into exploring the

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Speaker 1: concept of laying on of hands. The yeah put your

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Speaker 1: put your fingers against the screen, but your with your

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Speaker 1: hands against your your ears.

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Speaker 2: Uh oh no, rogue is on the other side.

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Speaker 3: Don't touch it again. Growth with the gloves. You got

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Speaker 3: the gloves with her in the gentle touch.

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Speaker 1: Yes, comics, Yeah, yeah, yeah, we we know. There's this

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Speaker 1: idea that persists day that a mere physical touch from

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Speaker 1: just the right other person could heal otherwise incurable medical conditions.

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Speaker 1: For any fans of our corporate overlords, Illumination Global Unlimited,

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Speaker 1: don't worry they got in on this grift super early.

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Speaker 4: Many hands what was it called, It's many hands.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's roll the tape to it.

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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 3: A production of EE Art Radio.

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Speaker 4: Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 2: My name is Matt, my name is Noel.

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with

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Speaker 1: our super producer Paul, Mission control decand most importantly, you

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Speaker 1: are you. You are here and that makes this stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. Crucial disclaimer for this episode.

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Speaker 1: Nothing we talk about and today's show is medical advice

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Speaker 1: and it should not be mistaken for such.

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Speaker 3: Could it be mistaken as spiritual advice?

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Speaker 5: Or we maybe we should disclaim that too, So that's

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Speaker 5: all in the eye of the beholder, I suppose, right, true.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the stance of this show has always been that

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Speaker 1: your spirituality is your own, so we would never dispend

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Speaker 1: spiritual advice either. But to the point about medical advice,

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Speaker 1: the reason we're saying this at the top of the

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Speaker 1: show is that at some point in every single person's life.

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Speaker 1: No matter who you are, your health becomes your number

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Speaker 1: one priority princes, princesses, and poppers alike, and when people

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Speaker 1: are beset by chronic, debilitating, or terminal conditions, we often

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Speaker 1: turn to any possible avenue in search of a cure.

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Speaker 1: In the US, the healthcare system also forces many many

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Speaker 1: residents to seek out alternative medicine, simply due to the

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Speaker 1: fact that traditional medical care can be enormously expensive, and

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Speaker 1: for other people, the alternative care route is already seen

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Speaker 1: as somehow more reliable or at the very least less

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Speaker 1: dangerous than established medical practice. One of the oldest, most

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Speaker 1: common forms of early medicine comes from the ancient days

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Speaker 1: of religion and what we today call science and ritual

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Speaker 1: and procedure. Back when all these things were lumped into

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Speaker 1: a single entity, in medicine such as it was, was

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Speaker 1: less a matter of science and more a matter of faith.

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Speaker 1: So today's question, what is faith healing? What is the

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Speaker 1: laying on of hands? Here are the facts.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, you know, the laying on of hands

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Speaker 5: beyond the notion of you know, I think the image

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Speaker 5: that a lot of us conjure when we hear the

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Speaker 5: term faith healing of somebody in a position of leadership

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Speaker 5: and a church taking their hands and laying them on

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Speaker 5: someone and healing the sick, or the idea of you know,

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Speaker 5: Jesus laying his hands on Lazarus and curing him of

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Speaker 5: his leprosy, or what have you, you know, restoring sight

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Speaker 5: to the blind and the like. But laying on of

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Speaker 5: hands is a lot more than that. I mean, it's

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Speaker 5: in the Christian tradition. It is a form of transmitting

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Speaker 5: blessings and sort of being a conduit for God's message

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Speaker 5: or God's kind of power.

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Speaker 3: I guess, depending on who you talk to.

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Speaker 5: But it is something that is in the Bible and

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Speaker 5: is a very very basic tenet of the Christian faith.

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Speaker 5: It's one that people often overlook. So what is the

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Speaker 5: laying on of hands in the genre of faith healing?

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Speaker 5: That term being an umbrella term for kind of rituals

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Speaker 5: and practices meant to create some sort of divine or

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Speaker 5: supernatural result in like I said, healing someone's physical, psychological,

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Speaker 5: or spiritual malady. Some other examples can include things like

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Speaker 5: visiting a shrine in other faiths or religious sites, some

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Speaker 5: sort of pilgrimage, doing a group prayer. Channeling this kind

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Speaker 5: of spiritual energy in a group, incantations, contact with an artifact,

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Speaker 5: a sacred relic, and so on, and again this is

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Speaker 5: beyond the Christian faith. I mean, that's the term they use,

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Speaker 5: but it's been around for thousands and thousands of years.

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Speaker 4: Right, Oh, yeah, absolutely, it's been used in organized religion,

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Speaker 4: and I guess more traditional religions that go, as you said,

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Speaker 4: far beyond the concept of laying on hands or some

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Speaker 4: kind of spiritual interaction that is manifested through a physical touch.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't necessarily mean healing, or it isn't always restricted

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Speaker 4: to healing. There are some other things that that action

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Speaker 4: has been used for. For instance, in Judaism, the semicha

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Speaker 4: is an action of ordination that some it's not necessarily

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Speaker 4: like physical healing, but some type of blessing that can

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Speaker 4: be bestowed upon somebody. It can confer like that blessing

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Speaker 4: from one to another, or even the authority of that

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Speaker 4: one person holds to give it to another. It's pretty

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Speaker 4: interesting stuff. You can find references to this in numbers

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Speaker 4: twenty seven, fifteen through twenty three. And in this story

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Speaker 4: from the Bible, Moses gives his power essentially to Joshua

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Speaker 4: through this action. It's pretty interesting. Oh, it's all another

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Speaker 4: verse in numbers eleven, sixteen through twenty five. Moses then

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Speaker 4: has a group of seventy elders around him and through

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Speaker 4: this action. Again I'm probably pronouncing it incorrectly, but Semeka

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Speaker 4: he ordains them with his powers.

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Speaker 1: But he does not heal them. To your point, right,

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Speaker 1: this is a conference of authority. And although you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the most important myths to bust here is

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Speaker 1: that conflation of faith healing with Christianity. It occurs in Christianity,

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Speaker 1: but that doesn't make it Christianity in any way special.

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Speaker 1: Because of our association with Christianity in the West, our

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Speaker 1: most apparent examples of faith healing come from that spiritual system.

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Speaker 1: So various Christian denominations have practiced laying on hands both

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Speaker 1: as an act of faith healing and also, to your point, Matt,

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Speaker 1: as an act of conferring some sort of authority ordaining someone.

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Speaker 1: In multiple New Testament passages, laying on of hands is

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Speaker 1: depicted as just that, an act of ordainment, and in

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Speaker 1: Pentecostal churches, especially in recent years or in recent eras,

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Speaker 1: this act, accompanied by prayer, is considered a crucial component

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Speaker 1: of faith healing. You'll also see that it's not uncommon

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Speaker 1: in charismatic churches, often associated with a single individual, mortal

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Speaker 1: personality who has some sort of distinct, unique connection to

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Speaker 1: the divine again, whatever that divinity may be.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it certainly takes on kind of a theatrical quality,

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Speaker 5: you know, when you are this very charismatic individual that's

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Speaker 5: you know, bringing someone up onto the stage to perhaps

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Speaker 5: cure them of some reality and you know, witnessed by

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Speaker 5: your congregation, and it creates this kind of fervor and

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Speaker 5: kind of works people up into a frenzy oftentimes. So

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Speaker 5: it is sort of used in that way, especially in

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Speaker 5: modern day, but you know, we see it all the

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Speaker 5: time in history, and like these kind of big tent

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Speaker 5: revival kind of church services that would do just this.

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Speaker 5: It would be a matter of like, you know, an individual,

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Speaker 5: a single kind of leader, having this very specific ability

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Speaker 5: that was believed in by a congregation. And perhaps there

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Speaker 5: were skeptics on the fringes or on the outside of

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Speaker 5: that group, but the folks that actually follow this individual

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Speaker 5: around would have believed that what they were seeing was

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Speaker 5: the work of God being done or kind of funneled

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Speaker 5: through this one person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we see this in cultures across the world,

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Speaker 1: across the timeline of human history. For instance, it's present

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Speaker 1: in some form in the Navajo spiritual system. But and

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Speaker 1: this might surprise people, it's one of my favorite things

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Speaker 1: about this. It was also a secular power for a

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Speaker 1: very long time, back when the notion of the right

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Speaker 1: to rule was also tied up with the notion of religion.

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Speaker 1: For centuries, French and English monarchs would practice something called

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Speaker 1: the royal touch. The royal touch is what it sounds like.

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Speaker 1: They would deign to touch their subjects, and this would

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Speaker 1: be perceived as a means of treating a disease. They

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Speaker 1: started out with any old condition that caught their eye,

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Speaker 1: just like a celebrity on Twitter. If you're a peasant

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Speaker 1: and you have a condition, and you catch the king

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Speaker 1: or the queen on a good day, then they may

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Speaker 1: lay hands on you. They may royally touch you, and

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Speaker 1: you know your chances of being cured, it would assume,

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Speaker 1: would rise. However, from about the sixteenth century on, these

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Speaker 1: monarchs began to focus on a specific ailment, scruffula, which

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Speaker 1: was also at the time known as the King's evil.

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Speaker 3: Ooh love that name. Well, I mean, it's another example

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Speaker 3: of the power of belief.

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Speaker 5: I mean, because a lot of these monarchs, you know,

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Speaker 5: they operate under this principle that their power came from God,

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Speaker 5: you know, and so therefore they were like the hand

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Speaker 5: and the voice and the you know, mandate of God

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Speaker 5: on earth.

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Speaker 3: And a lot of their subjects believed that too.

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Speaker 4: So scruffula, scruffula, what be the you might say, the

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Speaker 4: scruff or the King's Evil. Well, it's pretty pretty cool

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Speaker 4: to look into it, because it's actually a really early

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Speaker 4: version of perhaps marketing. Hey, Edward Burnees wasn't involved at

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Speaker 4: this time.

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Speaker 1: You know. I'm so glad that you said that, Matt,

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Speaker 1: and a little piece of me hopes that Brenees was

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Speaker 1: at least aware of this brilliant con and I'll call

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Speaker 1: it a con. This may be a controversial episode. Hey yeah,

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Speaker 1: shoot me, grim shot. Yeah, So you're right. They focused

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Speaker 1: on this specific thing, this specific condition, its dressed up

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Speaker 1: name when it goes to fancy parties is tuberculosis cervical lymphodonitis.

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Speaker 1: The King's Evil. As we said, the thing about this

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Speaker 1: condition tuberculosis cervical lymphodonitis. If you want to search it

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Speaker 1: to your heart's content is that you'll find it rarely

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Speaker 1: leads to death, and it often, even back then, would

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Speaker 1: go into remissions seemingly on its own. So and this

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Speaker 1: is very important. Later the Royal Touch appeared to cure

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Speaker 1: the condition. Unlike paralysis or blindness, conditions that could be

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Speaker 1: easily discerned just for looking as someone, this was something

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Speaker 1: that you know, the person who is suffering from the

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Speaker 1: affliction would be the most aware of. And that's why

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Speaker 1: the Royal Touch looked like it worked, or just as importantly,

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Speaker 1: it looked like it didn't fail.

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Speaker 5: But like, is this are these symptoms that were so

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Speaker 5: pronounced that it could be super clear They're like, aha,

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Speaker 5: and your symptoms have now left you entirely, or was

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Speaker 5: this so sought all that well? Lake it worked eventually,

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Speaker 5: you know what I mean? Like did there need to

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Speaker 5: be a big aha moment or was it like Okay,

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Speaker 5: now go home and get some rest and call me

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Speaker 5: in the morning kind of situation. It seems a little

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Speaker 5: more like that. And then they would report back, I'm cured.

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Speaker 5: And then the King's touch was smashing success or thought

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Speaker 5: of as infallible.

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Speaker 3: Is that kind of the shape of it.

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Speaker 1: Ben The big physical indication the most apparent physical symptom

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Speaker 1: is swelling of one or more lymph nodes. So you

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Speaker 1: was swelling would go up and then it will gradually

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Speaker 1: go down. And some people who had pre existing or

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Speaker 1: concurrent unrelated conditions would also have things like fever, weight loss, fatigue,

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Speaker 1: night sweats. In other words, a bevy of symptoms that

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Speaker 1: could come from any number of ailments. So worse comes

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Speaker 1: to worse if the royal touch, if the King's touch

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Speaker 1: has not cured so one of the King's evil, they

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Speaker 1: can always say that they cured that one specific thing,

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Speaker 1: the King's evil, And what's really getting you is leprosy

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Speaker 1: or not praying hard enough.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, let's not forget too. This was a time of.

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Speaker 5: Very poor medical care, so a lot of people were

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Speaker 5: sick a lot of the time.

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Speaker 3: I would imagine, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, yeah, hey guys, I just thought of something outside

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Speaker 4: of the healing. Just to take a quick detour here,

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Speaker 4: we're talking about the king's touch or the queen's touch,

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Speaker 4: or the physical act of someone in royalty touching another person,

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Speaker 4: connecting that to ordainment. I was thinking about being knighted

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Speaker 4: or you know, taking up something like that where you're

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Speaker 4: using a physical thing a sword in a lot of cases,

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Speaker 4: some kind of weapon to touch another to then send

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Speaker 4: the powers that you already have into that other person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and symbolically show that you are the difference between

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Speaker 1: their life and their death. Not for nothing is it

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Speaker 1: a sword, right?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: So the weird thing is this sounds like an historical footnote, right,

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Speaker 1: one of those other kind of obscure things that are

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Speaker 1: fun to hear about. The last known example of the

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Speaker 1: royal touch occurred as recently as eighteen twenty five at

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Speaker 1: the coronation of the French King Charles the tenth. And

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Speaker 1: then after that, these superpowers of monarchy sort of fade away.

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Speaker 1: And it's good to know that they faded away if

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Speaker 1: you're a fan of medicine, but if you're a fan

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Speaker 1: of folklore, it's a little bittersweet to see them go.

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Speaker 1: You know, they went the way of the Dodo, along

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Speaker 1: with other royal superpowers, like the ability to craft magical

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Speaker 1: curative objects, or of course the ability to exercise demons,

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Speaker 1: because you see, science becomes the new kid in town.

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Speaker 5: Well yeah, but even like things like we've talked about previously,

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Speaker 5: like unicorn horns being ground up or what they thought

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Speaker 5: were unicorn horns, which were actually like narwhal tusks that

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Speaker 5: were traded by the Vikings. That was something that even

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Speaker 5: the royals believed in, you know, pretty heavily, and they

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Speaker 5: would have like acceptors made out of these things and

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Speaker 5: these like magical objects. Which is interesting to me because

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Speaker 5: if there was this emphasis on the royal touch being

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Speaker 5: so powerful, how come they couldn't use it on themselves.

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Speaker 1: It's a good question. That was probably the the moment

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Speaker 1: in court where a philosopher got kicked out.

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Speaker 5: Oh, we don't want to hear that, we don't want

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Speaker 5: to hear any of that, and exactly. But then thankfully

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Speaker 5: science did sort of supplant a lot of this, a

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Speaker 5: lot of this stuff. So what does science have to

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Speaker 5: say about this whole concept of, you know, imparting power

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Speaker 5: or healing to others just through physical touch.

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Speaker 4: Well, i mean, the scientific community in the modern day, largely,

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Speaker 4: fast majorityly dismisses faith healing as being a thing. They

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Speaker 4: say that it's pseudoscience. I mean, I mean, that's just

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Speaker 4: kind of the stance, right, that's the way it's going

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Speaker 4: to be, and in the way the way it has

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Speaker 4: been for quite a long time. But there are many

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Speaker 4: others in the world, from true believers to people who

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Speaker 4: are even more skeptical. They do, they do object to

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Speaker 4: this concept of it being complete pseudoscience.

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Speaker 2: There there are.

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Speaker 4: People, I would say, kind of like me, I don't

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Speaker 4: want to put myself too deep into this camp early

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Speaker 4: on in this episode, who think there might be something

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Speaker 4: to it, to that physical physical connection of cells atoms

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Speaker 4: together that could do something right. And people who are

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Speaker 4: who believe this a little more. They argue that faith

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Speaker 4: healing should be view viewed as a spiritual practice in itself,

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Speaker 4: and that is it. It is a spiritual practice, right,

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Speaker 4: and the concept of using faith faith healing or believing

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Speaker 4: in faith healing or accepting faith healing has nothing to

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Speaker 4: do with science and scientific claims. It should be treated

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Speaker 4: as a matter of faith, and that's that's period. But

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Speaker 4: it's no surprise that this practice is still really popular

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Speaker 4: and there are things that have grown out of it,

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Speaker 4: different kinds of faith, different kinds of touching or almost touching,

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Speaker 4: And thinking about reiki where there's almost touching, it's the

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Speaker 4: same kind of physical act without the physical touch.

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Speaker 1: Or think about this, I'm a televangelist. Put your hand

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Speaker 1: against the screen, pray with time, Corona.

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Speaker 3: You will be healed.

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Speaker 1: That's where that's for folks watching the video there.

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Speaker 5: Oh man, I felt it hard, ben Or. But the

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Speaker 5: flip side of this is like, if if you can

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Speaker 5: heal somebody like this, can you also harm somebody like this?

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Speaker 3: Could you? Could I manifest like cancer into you? Am

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Speaker 3: I an enemy?

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Speaker 5: Or at the very least I mean, is in this

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Speaker 5: sort of like a reverse curse almost. I don't want

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Speaker 5: to derail us too much, but it does. It feels

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Speaker 5: like there ought to be a flip side. If you

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Speaker 5: believe in the one, shouldn't you even the other? You know,

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Speaker 5: I don't know the.

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Speaker 1: Left hand path. Yeah, yeah, it's another episode of one

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Speaker 1: we should do. I think that's a fantastic idea. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to write that down.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, if one exists, then the other would have to right.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's what That's what our various philosophical schools tell us,

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Speaker 1: and that makes that future episode even more chilling for

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Speaker 1: reasons that will soon become a parent.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In many parts of the world, we have to remember,

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Speaker 1: even in twenty twenty, millions and millions of people have

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Speaker 1: no realistic access to modern medical care and overwhelming evidence

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Speaker 1: proves that, all things being equal, a patient will tend

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Speaker 1: to be much better off with a doctor than with

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Speaker 1: a priest. The vast majority of spiritual authorities these days,

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Speaker 1: with some notable exceptions, welcome the practice of modern medicine.

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Speaker 1: They do not see it as conflicting with their personal beliefs. Please,

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Speaker 1: religious authorities, go to a doctor. Pray and you know,

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Speaker 1: go to the doctor. So the question then, is why

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Speaker 1: does faith healing persist? More importantly, why are so many

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Speaker 1: people convinced that it works? We'll tell you after a

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Speaker 1: word from our sponsor. Has this ever happened to you?

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Speaker 3: Please, sir, heal my grievest wounds?

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Speaker 4: Well, my son, I want to, but I have so

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Speaker 4: many other people to heal, and I've only got these

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Speaker 4: two hands.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a problem familiar to any work in faith healing.

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00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,439
Speaker 1: You've got money rolling in, You've got a line of

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Speaker 1: desperate people out the front door of the revival of

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00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 1: local megachurch. But how are you to get to everyone's

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00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 1: bank account in time?

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Speaker 3: But sir, can't you just pray for more hands? Pray

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Speaker 3: to God for more hands.

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Speaker 2: If only I could, my son, if only I could?

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00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 1: Why pray to God? When you can thank Many Hands.

347
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,080
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00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 4: Are the gloves with a bunch of other plastic hands

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Speaker 4: attached to them.

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Speaker 1: That's right, don't overthink it. Just slip on these convenient

352
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353
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,720
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00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 5: Wow, it feels like you're touching me with a real hand.

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00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 1: Our patented adjustable distance technology means you can lay hands

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Speaker 1: on upd eight victims patients at once, as long as

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00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 1: they are properly a positioned Amazing.

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Speaker 2: I'm touching you, and you and you and me, mister

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00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 2: and me. Do you feel it, my son? Do you

360
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 2: feel the power of the divide? Hang on to me,

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Speaker 2: Just adjust my glove.

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Speaker 3: He I feel it all right. I feel something that's

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Speaker 3: good enough for.

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00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 2: Me and that's good enough for God.

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00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 1: Yes, put away those tiresome obstacles to spiritual fame and

366
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370
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Speaker 1: ill and the dying, intogrin, malfunction, rhythmic diarrhea, earworms, tapeworms, hopeworms,

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Speaker 1: laundry expenses, and any fees associated with corek costs or

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Speaker 1: legal rulings in any hand is a subsidiary of Illumination

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, they are, yep, And boy are they helpful

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00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,360
Speaker 1: That was such a great ad break. Let's take another one.

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Speaker 3: Here's a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. The answer, but whether or

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Speaker 1: not faith healing works and laying on hands is not

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Speaker 1: as clear cut as we might like to think. Science

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Speaker 1: has proven that physical human contact and yes, in some ways,

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Speaker 1: even the process of laying hands on people may have

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Speaker 1: genuine medical benefits. That is a very very bold claim,

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Speaker 1: but it's maybe not as crazy as it sounds.

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Speaker 4: I actually have first hand experience with this because it

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Speaker 4: appears that the laying on of hands. The physical touch

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Speaker 4: is crucial, absolutely crucial to early childhood development. If you're

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Speaker 4: a parent, you may have experienced this. I certainly did.

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Speaker 4: You've probably had multiple conversations early on after having your child,

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Speaker 4: before having your child, perhaps talking about the importance of

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Speaker 4: something called skin to skin contact. And you know, there

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Speaker 4: is a lot of misinformation out there that you can

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Speaker 4: find on the internet and in so many books about babies.

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Speaker 4: There's so many of this, but it does seem to

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Speaker 4: be very important, and it appears to be important, at

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Speaker 4: least in our case with my son, my wife, where

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Speaker 4: that immediate skin to skin contact was very much encouraged

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Speaker 4: by everyone around us and.

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Speaker 2: Was told we were told to do this prior to

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Speaker 2: having the baby.

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Speaker 4: But also it was good for I would say, for

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Speaker 4: me to have like my child touch my skin and

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Speaker 4: like the sense and there. It's one of those weird

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Speaker 4: things that feels.

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Speaker 2: Like it goes beyond.

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Speaker 4: Science, but in reality it does seem to be things

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Speaker 4: that are very scientific like this, like the very animalistic

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Speaker 4: almost like the scent, the touch, the tactile feel, the warmth,

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Speaker 4: the sounds.

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Speaker 2: It's fascinating stuff.

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Speaker 5: Matt, did you notice a line item on your hospital

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Speaker 5: bill for skin to skin contact. Yes, that's a real

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Speaker 5: thing they'd charge you for. Like the act of it's

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Speaker 5: like it's a service they're providing, but it's basically just

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Speaker 5: dicking the baby and giving it to you.

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Speaker 3: Really quickly.

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Speaker 5: Though, Matt, it's also important for bonding, you know, Like

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Speaker 5: I mean, we've seen scientific studies of like animals where

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Speaker 5: that's you know, what was the study with the wire

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Speaker 5: monkey versus like the actual real mom, you know, touch it,

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Speaker 5: like a newborn baby monkey given contact with this like

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Speaker 5: wire monkey, and then the ones that actually were able

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Speaker 5: to be you know, skin to skin nurtured by the

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Speaker 5: real mother, and there was you know, the bond was crucial,

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Speaker 5: and that's something that I think is important with humans

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Speaker 5: as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it reminds me of the infamous Romanian orphanage studies

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Speaker 1: that show there are lasting developmental effects based on the

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Speaker 1: amount of interaction a very very young human has with

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Speaker 1: an adult. There's a professor of developmental psychology at Saint

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Speaker 1: Francis Xavier University in Nova, Scotia. Her name is Anne Bigelow,

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Speaker 1: and she says she agrees with you, Matt, that the

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Speaker 1: science is there and it's compelling and to with your

436
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: point all about emotional bonding. It's proven that babies who

437
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: have this skin to skin contact do appear to cry less,

438
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 1: they have more RESTful sleep. And additionally, the practice can

439
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 1: benefit the parents. It reduces levels of stress in the

440
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 1: parent the caregiver, It reduces levels of depression, and it

441
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: does this by releasing oxytocin. There is neurochemical science here,

442
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: and of course that helps with bonding on an emotional level.

443
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 1: You can kind of envision the positive feedback loop. I

444
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: feel calmer when I hold my child. My child also

445
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: feels calmer because they're picking up my vibes. For a

446
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 1: super scientific term, and this works again, this works with

447
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: fathers as well.

448
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 5: Really clearly, the thing I was talking about, the experiment

449
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 5: that I was referencing was the Harlow monkey experiments, and

450
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 5: it wasn't with the real mother ever. It was one

451
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 5: monkey surrogate was made of wire and provided nourishment, and

452
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 5: the other one was made of soft terry cloth, felt

453
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 5: much more like a real mother kind of experience and

454
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 5: didn't provide nourishment, And that was the more important bond

455
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 5: than the one that.

456
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 3: Felt less motherly.

457
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 5: And and you know Cuddley, it proved that that was

458
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 5: a more important connection than even the providing of food.

459
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 2: I just want to say that study is messed up.

460
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 3: Oh, all of this guy's studies were.

461
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 5: This guy's an awful person whoa Parlow. Yeah, big, big,

462
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 5: very very bad reputation.

463
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 3: In the scientific community.

464
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 4: I'm imagining it being done to humans and just what

465
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 4: that would actually look like. And I'm horrified, and now

466
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 4: I kind of want to write something about it.

467
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure it happened, but maybe without the veneer of

468
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: scientific experimentation. Humans are so messed up, and there's so

469
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: many of us, and we've been around for a pretty

470
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: long time. So yeah, one of us did something like

471
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: that easily.

472
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, speaking of psychologically being messed up or okay,

473
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 4: let's talk about the psychological effects of the stuff.

474
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: We're talking about skin to skin connection.

475
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, we know that, we know that there is something

476
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: that babies can innately's sense about a human caregiver. And

477
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: this is part of why I imagine the Harlow experiment

478
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: occurs with another primate, right, because that's something you can

479
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: get closer and closer to human comparison with This is

480
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: proven and as you said, Matt, There are a plethora

481
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: of books about this. I am using the word directly.

482
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: I feel like there are too many. But we know

483
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: that relationship is real. That is a situation where laying

484
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: on hands or skin to skin contact does matter. And

485
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: if you are a mother, shortly after you give birth

486
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: you get a couple of superpowers related directly to this.

487
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: You'll find that the temperature of the skin in your

488
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: chest area is a degree or two higher than the

489
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: temperature of the skin across the rest of your body.

490
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,959
Speaker 1: This makes a natural kind of like warming cradling area

491
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: for the yourkido and additionally, your body as a recent mother,

492
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: can also thermo regulate the child if the baby's this crazy.

493
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: If the baby's temperature rises, yours goes down in response.

494
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Yeah, but it's also not quite the same

495
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: thing as laying hands on someone to heal an injury

496
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: or condition. To talk about that, we have to talk

497
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: about being healed versus feeling healed. We have to introduce

498
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: the placebo effect.

499
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 3: We sure do.

500
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 5: And again, like I always kind of lump these two

501
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 5: and together, the placebo effect is a very measurable metric

502
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 5: of the power of belief. The idea of actually being

503
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 5: healed versus feeling like you're healed, And a lot of

504
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 5: that has to do with your belief in the individual

505
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 5: that is imparting this, either medicine or touch or something bigger,

506
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 5: whether it's some kind of ritual or you know, whatever,

507
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 5: it might be, some.

508
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 3: Sort of holistic approach.

509
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 5: You know, there's a lot of power of belief and

510
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 5: placebo effect tied up with some of that kind of

511
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 5: stuff too, and that's lumped into the realm of pseudoscience,

512
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 5: like the idea of colloidal silver or certain you know,

513
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 5: kind of medicinal herbs or what have you that maybe

514
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 5: people swear by and they swear that it changes their

515
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 5: entire life when they take witch hazel. But then science

516
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 5: maybe says we the jury still out on that. But

517
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 5: faith healing operates as the name implies, on faith. Thus,

518
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 5: from a scientific perspective, you can't measure faith. Faith is

519
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 5: a very individualistic thing. It is a very personal thing.

520
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 5: So that makes it a non starter scientifically because it's

521
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 5: not measurable. Faith is by nature, it's an unexplained, dare

522
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 5: we say, kind of magical and ephemeral thing that's incomprehensible

523
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 5: in the realms of science, which relies on scientific measurements

524
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 5: and being able to objectively compare two different things and

525
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 5: the effects, so it can't be weighed, can't be measured,

526
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 5: You can't you know, meet it out in doses like

527
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 5: you can drugs or pharmaceuticals, et cetera. You know, it's

528
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 5: just a completely different universe than science or medicine.

529
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 4: And there's certainly no shortage of individuals who believe they

530
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 4: themselves have been healed or they know someone who has

531
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 4: been healed through faith alone, through the laying of hands,

532
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 4: through the touch of God, or someone you know manifesting

533
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 4: God's power through them. And I mean, it's amazing and

534
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 4: it's actually really cool to read a lot of these stories.

535
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 4: It's a hopeful thing to go down that pathway. But

536
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 4: those personal anecdotes don't add up to real evidence, at

537
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 4: least scientific evidence, unfortunately, and it's not going to satisfy

538
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 4: those listening right now who are more skeptical.

539
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that doesn't mean that anyone is automatically wrong.

540
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: That means that we have to do our due diligence

541
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: and investigate it right. So faith healing when it appears

542
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: to work, they're very compelling cases where it appears that

543
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: something happened. When this appears to work, it may be

544
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: one of the earliest examples in humanity of what we

545
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: call the placebo effect. Record scratch. Some of us listening

546
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: today may think that calling something the placebo effect is

547
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: the same thing as dismissing it. But this could not

548
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: be further from the truth. And Paul editme. Here here

549
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: is the crazy part. Placebos are proven to work in

550
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: about thirty percent of patience. You can find more research

551
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: on this sided in how Stuff Works article How the

552
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: placebo effect works. This means that the simple act of

553
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: taking something on a doctor's recommendation is more similar to

554
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: taking the advice of a religious figure than we may

555
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: want to think. In the modern day, you get a

556
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: sense of well being, you get what's called subjective verification,

557
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: and some research indicates that the placebo effect may indeed

558
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: go beyond the psychological realm, inducing or inciting a physiological response.

559
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 3: It's crazy, It's super crazy.

560
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 5: And just to double back to what I brought up earlier,

561
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 5: the idea of like what's the opposite of faith healing?

562
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 5: And this is for another episode. I just wanted to

563
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 5: point out placebo effect does have an opposite and it's

564
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 5: called the no cibo effect, and that is a detrimental

565
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 5: result of an inert substance based on belief.

566
00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 3: So you know what I mean.

567
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 5: I mean, I really think that those things do go

568
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 5: hand in hand with this, and I'd love to explore

569
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 5: that in conjunction with the idea of a curse or

570
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 5: imparting some kind of malady or a negative effect to

571
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 5: somebody you know through touch or psych you know, or suggestion.

572
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: Right, So there are there are multiple studies that confirm

573
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: the efficacy of the placebo effect, and I do want

574
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: to mention just for the Latin nerds, placebo is Latin

575
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: for I will please. So a major doctor is just

576
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: like convinced that you will feel better even if they

577
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: don't believe you have a real condition, if they give

578
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: you sugar pills. That's the one of the common examples.

579
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: But a study conducted by researchers at the UCLA Neuropsychiatric

580
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: Institute in two thousand and two gave two different groups

581
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: of patients experimental antidepressants. They gave a third group a placebo,

582
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: and after several weeks of taking these pills, the real

583
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: ones on the placebo version each group's brain activity was

584
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: measured using EEGs. The patients who had been on the

585
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: placebo and also reported a positive effect, I feel less depressed.

586
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: In other words, they showed a greater increase of brain

587
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: activity than the people who had responded well to the

588
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: actual drug. The activity also recurred in the prefrontal cortex.

589
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 1: That's important because it suggests to us that the brain

590
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: isn't necessarily being fooled by a placebo after all. Instead,

591
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: it's responding to this placebo in a different way than

592
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: it would respond to an actual drug.

593
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 3: Hmm.

594
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 4: Or maybe that drug was just garbage. Antidepressant was just

595
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 4: a depressant.

596
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, maybe it was.

597
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, But then you could you can see that, you know.

598
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: There's some other excellent research at two thousand and four

599
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: study at the University of Michigan that shows placebo effect

600
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: has some relationship with endorphins, your brain's natural pain relievers.

601
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: And so.

602
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 1: When you do brain scans when they did in the study,

603
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: and you see someone given a placebo, then what you'll

604
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: see is that their brain activity will change, particularly in

605
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: their opioid receptors which receive endorphins, and there will also

606
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: be activity in areas relating to processing and responding to pain.

607
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: It is then scientifically proven that the mere expectation of

608
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: pain relief caused the brain's pain relief system to activate,

609
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: and that means it works. And that also means that

610
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: the important part of why it works hinges on our perception.

611
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: The nature of the placebo doesn't matter, you know what

612
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 1: I mean. There is no curative spoon to bastardize the matrix.

613
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 1: So long as the patient has some sort of faith

614
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: in the individual administering the treatment, or more importantly, in

615
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 1: the process of receiving the treatment, then a pill is

616
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: the same as a pall. So we have a scientific

617
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 1: case for how this process could in some instances work,

618
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: a could function. But when we talk about faith healing,

619
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: we also have to address a darker, more controversial, more

620
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,479
Speaker 1: disturbing aspect of the practice, which we'll do after word

621
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 1: from our sponsors. We've returned, and as we continue delving down,

622
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: we're reaching the rotten route of the controversy surrounding faith healing.

623
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 1: Make no mistake, this involves real life conspiracy, not theories,

624
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: no guesses or speculation, proven conspiracies that are both dangerous

625
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: and ongoing. Perhaps in an area near you. Sadly, one

626
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: of the most common insidious conspiracy surrounding faith healing involves

627
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: con artists, by which we mean people who know they

628
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,280
Speaker 1: cannot cure cancer through the power of their physical touch

629
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: or connection with the divine, but will gladly pretend to

630
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: cure anything you want so long as the price is right.

631
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very true.

632
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 4: You may remember from a previous episode we did on Televangelists.

633
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 4: There's there's quite a bit of crossover in this episode

634
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 4: and that episode. And you know one person that I

635
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 4: don't think we mentioned in that episode. Guys, correct me

636
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 4: if I'm wrong, is someone known as Marjoe.

637
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: We did not.

638
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 3: I went back and checked.

639
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, cool, so mar Joe.

640
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 4: The name, by the way, is Mary and Joseph Portmanteaud

641
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 4: shoved together there. It's not really Portmantad, but it's shoved together.

642
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 2: At least.

643
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 4: Marjo is the name of a boy, or at the time,

644
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 4: a very young boy. I believe he was four years

645
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 4: old when he got his start as a preacher. At

646
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 4: least that's when he got his start, when his parents

647
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 4: began putting him in front in front of executives in

648
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 4: media and other industry saying, hey, let me introduce let

649
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 4: me introduce you to our son Marjo, and he would

650
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 4: go in and recite passages from the Bible. He began

651
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 4: preaching I think at the age six, maybe he was

652
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 4: even younger than that when he was out giving sermons

653
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 4: to enraptured audiences hanging on to his every word. By

654
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 4: the way, it's Marjoe Gordoner. That's the person's name. And

655
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 4: there is a documentary that you can check out. The

656
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 4: one that I was able to actually find was titled

657
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 4: The Story of Marjo. I was able to find that

658
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 4: on Vimeo if you're interested in checking it out. It's

659
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 4: about an hour and a half hour twenty something and

660
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 4: it goes over the entire life story of this child

661
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 4: who grew up doing this pretty much forced by his family.

662
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 4: I mean, anytime you were a child as young as

663
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 4: he was at the time, your guardian or your family

664
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 4: is going to have a lot of say in what

665
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 4: you do and do not do. And in this case,

666
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 4: it was his family that pressured him to continue doing

667
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 4: things like this. I think he married. I know he

668
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 4: started marrying people around the age of five before or five,

669
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 4: Like he was officiating sermons but it continued and continued,

670
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 4: and I would say an evolution of a snowball that

671
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 4: was rolling down a hill that was pushed by his parents.

672
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 4: By the end or towards the middle, he was laying

673
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 4: hands on people like huge, huge, essentially tense you know,

674
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 4: ten style revivals where they're just hundreds and hundreds of people,

675
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 4: and he would go around and touch people where people

676
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 4: would look like they're having a seizure, in at least

677
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 4: the televised or the recorded versions of it, where people

678
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 4: would claim to be healed by him, where he and

679
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,959
Speaker 4: his parents were making those kinds of claims. And here's

680
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 4: the problem. He came forward a little bit later in

681
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,439
Speaker 4: his life and essentially rejected everything that he had done

682
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 4: because he felt very bad. Least according to what I've read,

683
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 4: that all of this stuff was a sham and it

684
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 4: was a show that they were putting on and people

685
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 4: were getting you know, essentially, he said that people were

686
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 4: getting hurt and he felt terrible about it. Anyway, there's

687
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 4: more we could talk about. It might even be a

688
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,919
Speaker 4: whole episode, but fascinating stuff. It's one example of how

689
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 4: this can go wrong, how the concept of faith healing

690
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 4: can be used by someone or a group of people

691
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 4: to just get money from others.

692
00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: And then we have other examples such as stage acts

693
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: like Peter Popoff spelt like it sounds, who claimed to

694
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: get messages from the divine. This is unfortunately a common grift.

695
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 1: He was actually getting information from his wife and co

696
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: conspirator who was sending it to him via a pretty

697
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: modest headpiece, and they would collect this information when people

698
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: wrote about their lives on these index cards as they

699
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: entered the grift. So there are also some things that

700
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: appear to be cures because the condition itself was incorrectly diagnosed,

701
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 1: So the actual medical condition went away on its own

702
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: over time, but now the healer is able to take

703
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: credit for the miracle, which happens a lot with the unscrupulous.

704
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: Some deadly serious conditions Furthermore, like multiple sclerosis or cancer,

705
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: can go into remission for months or years at a

706
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: time for reasons that we don't fully understand. However, the

707
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: the healer will still be there front and center to

708
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: claim responsibility for yet again something that they didn't do.

709
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: And should the condition return, the healer is long gone.

710
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: You know, maybe they'll performatively pray for their victim. If

711
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: it comes up in conversation right on the way to

712
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 1: another grift. And I know maybe the language I'm using

713
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: is strong here, but if you are doing this to

714
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: people and you know that it does not work, then

715
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: you are a terrible person. These swindlers rely on what's

716
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 1: called subjective validation, the idea that because I feel this

717
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: is true, it is true, right, and my certitude is

718
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: of a higher priority and value than any objective evidence presented.

719
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 5: And you know, it reminds me of what we're talking

720
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 5: about at the beginning of the show, the whole King's

721
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 5: Evil thing. But if that came back, I mean, it's

722
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 5: the king, you would never call that into question, right,

723
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 5: But it's the same situation where that particular malady I

724
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 5: can't remember the long form, but the King's Evil was

725
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 5: the kind of shorthand had a tendency to disappear on

726
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 5: its own, or at the very least some of the

727
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,240
Speaker 5: symptoms would go into remission. So this is a much

728
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 5: more specific grift than that, even but kind of relying

729
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 5: on the same principle, right.

730
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And the process has been ironed out so

731
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: that it can work even if you are at royalty.

732
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 2: Think about it.

733
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: The people are self selecting right for a hopeful positive outcome.

734
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 1: That means they're pre selected to validate what they're told

735
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 1: is happening. Additionally, unlike a medical appointment, there's not going to.

736
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 2: Be a follow up.

737
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 1: They're not going to check back in on you after

738
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 1: they blow through town. That makes it easier to sweep

739
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 1: victims under the rug. And, of course, as horrific and

740
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,720
Speaker 1: inhuman as this is, if there is an obvious failure

741
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: that you can't you know, sideline, or you can't sort

742
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: of negate or diminish, then you, as a faith healer,

743
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: have one super mooved. You can just imply that the

744
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: victim didn't have enough faith or they didn't follow the

745
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: procedure you set forth for them.

746
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 5: Which is extra punishingly awful because these people all they

747
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 5: have is their belief. They're they're they're they're entering into

748
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,479
Speaker 5: this agreement based on their belief. Uh, and then you're

749
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 5: taking advantage of that, and then when it doesn't work,

750
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 5: you're calling their whole like basis for existing into question.

751
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 5: Can you imagine if if you believe your cancer was

752
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 5: healed by a faith healer because of the power of

753
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 5: God and your faith in God and this individual and

754
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 5: then it didn't work and you were told, well, I

755
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 5: guess you don't believe in God enough.

756
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 2: Well, there's there is that, and that's often.

757
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 3: That's mind boggling.

758
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 4: But there's also an internal logic to some spirituality, and

759
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 4: a lot of it is based on a belief in

760
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 4: destiny or you know, predetermination or a version of you know, God.

761
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 4: Whatever entity has a plan or a map, and we

762
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 4: are just following along on this map and this timeline

763
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 4: and this story and our time when it is our

764
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 4: time is our time, right. So if this faith healing

765
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 4: didn't work and the person still passed away, it was

766
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 4: just God's plan or it was when that person was

767
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 4: supposed to go. And it doesn't matter if they were

768
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 4: going to be healed or if the healing would have worked,

769
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 4: it's what God intended. So I mean there all of

770
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 4: that kind of works with each other to set the

771
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 4: person up that I think we're pretty clearly labeling a

772
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 4: swindler here to win.

773
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a win win situation. I would also add

774
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: to that thread of conversation that the interesting part of

775
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: that argument is that it means free will at the

776
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: best takes a very far back seat in the bust

777
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: of existence, and therefore it would be useless for us

778
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: to record this episode. But we have to do it

779
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,840
Speaker 1: because we're not choosing to do so. And the illusion

780
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: of choice is you know, it's a big thing in

781
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: stage magic and all kinds of scams. But you're right,

782
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:40,720
Speaker 1: it's the game is rigged for again these unethical faith healers,

783
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: who I would say are not faith healers because they

784
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: don't believe in what they're doing. These people are setting

785
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 1: up this win win. Anything bad that happens is not

786
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 1: the healer's fault. If for some reason anything good happens,

787
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: for like due to any variable, then the con artists

788
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,760
Speaker 1: can take every bit of the credit. And then, of course,

789
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,399
Speaker 1: if they're super good at their job, they'll make sure

790
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: to pay a little lip service to a divine being

791
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 1: that they probably don't believe in, just because that keeps

792
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: the show going. You know, it's kind of a Kfei

793
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: sort of thing. But this isn't to say that there

794
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 1: is not science a play. Patients will feel better, the

795
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: endorphins are churning. This leads to the physiological stuff we

796
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: outlined earlier. It can be a genuine, albeit temporary respite

797
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: and I think we have to just spend a little

798
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 1: bit of time on this. We're being hard on the

799
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: bad actors here, right, We're being hard on the grifters

800
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: and the criminals, But we are by no means saying

801
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 1: that all faith healers are bad or cynical parasites or

802
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: credit thieves. In fact, many faith healers are practicing in

803
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,800
Speaker 1: well good faith.

804
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 2: It's true.

805
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 4: There are undoubtedly people out there right now, maybe you listening,

806
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 4: who truly believe that what they're doing is helping someone.

807
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 4: If they are a faith healer, if they're someone who

808
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 4: does lay on hands, no matter what the spirituality and

809
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 4: belief of that person and the people that they're administering

810
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 4: it to, and they believe that, or they at least

811
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 4: truly want to believe that, because they want to help somebody,

812
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 4: and they have the faith and belief in that, you know,

813
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 4: in their abilities and the abilities of whatever deity to

814
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 4: apply that. So, you know, given what we know about

815
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 4: the placebo effect, what we've discussed on this episode in

816
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 4: previous ones, depending on the perception of the person that

817
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 4: the faith healing is being administered to the patient, it

818
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 4: seems like this practice laying on hands could actually genuinely,

819
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 4: provably trigger those positive psychological changes in that person. And

820
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 4: again that's why I bring up something like reiki, where

821
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 4: even if it's over a camera, someone like pulling your

822
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 4: energy out right, having that time and the belief that

823
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 4: it's working, it could do something to your brain. It does, well,

824
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,479
Speaker 4: it could thirty percent of the time, right or more.

825
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 5: In general, though, I mean, like with this whole quarantine situation,

826
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 5: I think people are almost downplaying the mental health aspects

827
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 5: of what this is doing to people not having human touch,

828
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 5: the ones that are so paranoid about getting sick because

829
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 5: maybe they have autoimmune issues or.

830
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 3: What have you, or they're older.

831
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 5: It's really difficult to overstate how important human contact and

832
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 5: human touch is for just human beings in general. We're

833
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 5: not designed to be isolated in this way. And who

834
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 5: knows if just the power of having some physically touch

835
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 5: you in a way that has a meaning imparted behind it, right,

836
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 5: that is powerful in and of itself, and it's enough

837
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 5: to turn some screws in your brain that could then

838
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 5: turn some screws in your body. And maybe it's not

839
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 5: actually curing the thing, but it sure as hell can

840
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,760
Speaker 5: make you feel better. You know, there's even this idea

841
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 5: of self soothing where if you're going through anxiety, or

842
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 5: if you're experiencing physiological responses to anxiety, you can just

843
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 5: touch hold yourself, you know, like literally give yourself a

844
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 5: hug or stroke your arm if there's no one else around,

845
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 5: And that's got proven positive qualities as well, no substitute

846
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 5: for having somebody else do it though, right So, I

847
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 5: don't know. I think a lot of this is really

848
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 5: wrapped up in that how the power of touch, the

849
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 5: power of human interaction, I think is at the core

850
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 5: of all of this.

851
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: And we know that regardless of whether or not you

852
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:58,359
Speaker 1: consider yourself a skeptic, there is at least evidence, we've

853
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 1: at least built a case of how this stuff called

854
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 1: faith healing could impart psychological and physiological changes. It can

855
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 1: alleviate pain. Faith healing has a clear scientific path.

856
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:13,359
Speaker 3: To do that.

857
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 1: But we have to remember alleviating a pain is not

858
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:22,280
Speaker 1: the same thing as curing an ailment. And many, many

859
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: people who are with the with full sincerity practicing as

860
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,919
Speaker 1: faith healers have you know, they're not trying to rip

861
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: people off, they're not trying to harm people. They may

862
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 1: in many cases be saying, hey, let's go through this

863
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 1: process together, and also let's do that in addition to

864
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: traditional medical care. You know what I mean, These things

865
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: aren't always at loggerheads, even though that would make for

866
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 1: you know, a more sensationalistic story. A lot of these

867
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 1: faith healers, again, not the con artists, the people who

868
00:52:56,040 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: really believe in what they're doing. They will say that

869
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: they are working with powers human beings do not readily understand,

870
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: and to a degree that is absolutely true from everything

871
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:13,240
Speaker 1: we know about this process right now, however, it seems

872
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: that the power at hand, the prime mover here, is

873
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: science rather than something divine.

874
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 2: Agreed, but we can't prove that it's not something divine. No,

875
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 2: we can just.

876
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 4: Prove that over the course of history, a lot of

877
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 4: people have abused the concept of having divinity or experiencing

878
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 4: divinity or channeling it.

879
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I like that point because we see

880
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:47,760
Speaker 1: here the character of humanity writ large. We see some malevolence, right,

881
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: we see lack of ethics, but then we also see inspiration. Right.

882
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 1: We see people trying to help each other, which is

883
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful things this species can do.

884
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 1: And we know that we know as we always say

885
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,760
Speaker 1: when we're addressing matters of faith, we're showing that faith

886
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: does have a scientific impact on individual human life. Like

887
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: another thing would another you know, pin to put in

888
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: this conspiracy board is the fact that strong faith in

889
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: something can help bolster the human immune system. Your body

890
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: seems to know when you believe in something. That's maybe

891
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: a very simplistic way to put it, but it holds true.

892
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: And we want to hear what you think. Have you

893
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 1: or someone you know experienced firsthand, I'll stop faith that

894
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 1: that appeared to work? Right? And do you believe this

895
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,879
Speaker 1: can be explained through something like the placebo effect or

896
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 1: to your earlier point, know the power we feel the

897
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: way our bodies and our hormones and our intecrine systems

898
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 1: respond to human contact. What do you think about some

899
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,320
Speaker 1: of the research here? Do you think that science maybe

900
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 1: should not attempt to explain faith healing? Should it exist separately?

901
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,879
Speaker 3: Well? Like should? Right? Is this something that I don't know? Man?

902
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 5: Like it's one of those things where it's like, aren't

903
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 5: some things better left to the realm of the metaphysical

904
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 5: as opposed to trying to like explain them with science?

905
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 5: I don't know like, I think some things about religion

906
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 5: are wrapped up in the placebo effect. To me, in general,

907
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 5: they can make you feel better even if quote what

908
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,959
Speaker 5: you're quote unquote believing in isn't provable. That's what faith is, right,

909
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 5: So I mean, like, do you do we want science

910
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 5: to explain whether there is or isn't a God? Doesn't

911
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 5: that kind of fly in the face of the whole

912
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 5: concept of faith.

913
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 4: That's the whole point of science proving if there is

914
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 4: or is some invisible hand guiding everything.

915
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 5: Then science is kind of a buzzkill sometimes, Like, I

916
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 5: don't know, I'm not a religious person. I'm not, but

917
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 5: I would consider myself a spiritual person and I don't

918
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 5: know that I need science to put that in a

919
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 5: box for me. You know, I don't know, like you

920
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 5: should to hear what listeners, what you folks think.

921
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:16,240
Speaker 1: And it also reminds me of Arthur C. Clark's famous quote,

922
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 1: any sufficiently advanced technology, well just insert science here, maybe

923
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: indistinguishable from magic. It also reminds me of anybody who

924
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 1: is interested in the intersection between technology and the divine.

925
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 1: If you have not read it yet and you have

926
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 1: a spare ten minutes sometime after you listen to this,

927
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: please check out the Nine Billion Names of God. It's

928
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 1: a short story. I won't spoil the ending, but it

929
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 1: is just Chef's kiss, top notch reading. And while you're

930
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 1: on the internet, let us know something about your take

931
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 1: on some of these questions we post. You can find

932
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: us all over the place except on a couple of

933
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: live journal it's just they got too popular. Want to

934
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: answer our emails?

935
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 4: You guys, we got a message about Pinterest. We got educated.

936
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:07,720
Speaker 3: Are we being shamed? Are we being Pinterest? No?

937
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:10,839
Speaker 4: No, it's very kind actually about Hey, here's exactly what

938
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 4: pinterest is and what you use it for and how

939
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 4: I use it.

940
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 1: And thanks for writing in on that one, because I

941
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: too remember the days when access to Pinterest was a

942
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 1: pretty exclusive thing that was sort of a digital velvet

943
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 1: rope around it.

944
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 2: That's Catherine, by the way, Thanks Catherine.

945
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: Thank you, Catherine. So you can find us at the

946
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 1: dive bars and gin joints of the Internet, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram.

947
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: You can find us on Facebook and Twitter as conspiracy Stuff.

948
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: We're on Instagram as conspiracy Stuff Show.

949
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 3: If you wish.

950
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 5: You can also finds as an individuals on social media.

951
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 5: I am on Instagram at how Now Noel Brown.

952
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 4: I am at Matt Frederick Underscore, iHeart and special shout

953
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 4: out to all the ASM artists out there, thanks for

954
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 4: helping us all get to sleep easier and comforting us

955
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 4: in these lonely times with your virtual faith healing and

956
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 4: reiki sessions that I looked at for this episode.

957
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 1: And of course special thanks to our fellow listeners who

958
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: write in every so often to say love your show.

959
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: It helps us fall asleep.

960
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 2: That's all my favorites.

961
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can find me Twitter at Ben Bolan HSW

962
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: what's the HSW for longtime listeners? You know you can

963
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 1: also find me on Instagram at Ben Bollan. But I

964
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: hate social media, you say, shaking your fist at the sky.

965
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 1: I have no faith that there's a salve for that.

966
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 1: I'm a phone call person. Well you are in luck.

967
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 4: Our number is one eight three three STDWYTK. Leave us

968
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 4: a message exactly what you want to say, anything you

969
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 4: want to say, everything you can. You can have a

970
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,920
Speaker 4: musical soundtrack, although we probably can't play that in the

971
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 4: background because we wouldn't be able to afford the rights.

972
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 4: Unless you're playing the music and it's your own original

973
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 4: score or and you send us a license agreement, it'll

974
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 4: get complicated public domain.

975
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 5: That's cool shit, And you can just comment and now

976
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 5: or or whatever, play it on the.

977
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 2: Kazooe, or just use your voice.

978
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 4: Whatever you want to do, give us a call. If

979
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 4: you don't want to do that, you can always give

980
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 4: us an old fashioned email.

981
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

982
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 4: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

983
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 4: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

984
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.