WEBVTT - Sonny Rollins 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:22.876 Pushkin. Twenty twenty four was a rough year for jazz. 0:00:23.036 --> 0:00:25.356 A lot of legends were lost, from Quincy Jones to 0:00:25.436 --> 0:00:29.596 Roy Haynes, Low Donaldson and Benny Golson. In fact, after 0:00:29.636 --> 0:00:32.676 the passing of Benny Golson, only one person remains from 0:00:32.676 --> 0:00:36.196 the iconic nineteen fifty eight photograph A Great Day in Harlem, 0:00:36.316 --> 0:00:39.276 where dozens of jazz luminaries gathered together on a stoop 0:00:39.316 --> 0:00:42.636 and Harlem to have a photograph taken to memorialize that era. 0:00:43.596 --> 0:00:47.236 That person is with us today, the great Sonny Rollins. 0:00:48.196 --> 0:00:50.236 Since I last spoke to Sonny Rollins on the program 0:00:50.276 --> 0:00:53.596 a few years ago, a couple of interesting artifacts have surfaced. 0:00:53.676 --> 0:00:56.636 One is the notebook that he kept while he was 0:00:56.716 --> 0:00:59.716 in self imposed exile for music between nineteen fifty eight 0:00:59.716 --> 0:01:03.236 and nineteen sixty one. Those were photocopied and made into 0:01:03.236 --> 0:01:05.756 a wonderful book called The Notebooks of Sonny Rollins, where 0:01:05.796 --> 0:01:07.716 you can get insight into what he was thinking about 0:01:07.756 --> 0:01:11.236 at the time, both socially, politically and in terms of 0:01:11.276 --> 0:01:14.476 his music. The other are some great live recordings of 0:01:14.516 --> 0:01:17.596 Sonny in Europe. There was also a great biography published 0:01:17.596 --> 0:01:20.316 about Sunny Rollins. Since we last spoke by Aidan Levy 0:01:20.356 --> 0:01:23.596 called Saxophone Colossus The Life and Music of Sonny Rollins. 0:01:24.556 --> 0:01:26.396 So though last year was a tough year for jazz, 0:01:26.476 --> 0:01:28.836 I'm honored at the top of twenty twenty five to 0:01:28.876 --> 0:01:35.476 bring you a conversation with a saxophone colossus himself, Sonny Rollins. 0:01:36.836 --> 0:01:40.116 This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. 0:01:40.276 --> 0:01:47.636 I'm justin Mitchman. We spoke a couple of years ago 0:01:48.116 --> 0:01:51.356 and had a really nice conversation. But I guess since 0:01:51.356 --> 0:01:54.516 that time, lots come out about you. There's been a 0:01:54.556 --> 0:01:58.516 whole set of records that were previously just bootlegs, that 0:01:58.596 --> 0:02:02.436 were sets of recordings from Europe in nineteen fifty nine 0:02:02.596 --> 0:02:04.636 came out and those were really beautiful to listen to. 0:02:05.596 --> 0:02:09.476 You had a biography come out, pretty substantial biography, and 0:02:09.836 --> 0:02:12.796 a book of your notebooks curated and distilled down into 0:02:12.836 --> 0:02:14.396 a book form. 0:02:15.116 --> 0:02:16.996 Yeah yeah, So. 0:02:16.956 --> 0:02:18.836 I thought, man, maybe maybe it'd be cool to have 0:02:18.876 --> 0:02:21.276 another conversation and talk about some of the stuff. 0:02:22.036 --> 0:02:26.276 Okay, well, I'm down for it. Whatever you think might 0:02:26.356 --> 0:02:33.676 be important for you or anybody else to know. Give 0:02:33.756 --> 0:02:34.396 for this shot. 0:02:36.036 --> 0:02:38.836 First of all, you did it some pretty substantial interviews. 0:02:38.876 --> 0:02:41.596 It appears to me from reading the book. For the book, 0:02:41.756 --> 0:02:45.516 was that an enjoyable process to revisit the entirety of 0:02:45.556 --> 0:02:48.036 your life the way you did well? 0:02:48.276 --> 0:02:52.876 You know, as a guy that's been around so long, 0:02:53.036 --> 0:02:57.156 if I have now you know which, who knows? I 0:02:57.316 --> 0:03:01.436 never thought i'd be when there's a large steep of spanding. 0:03:01.956 --> 0:03:06.876 But I've done a lot of interviews. I had a 0:03:06.916 --> 0:03:12.196 lot of different times, man, But I'm not a guy 0:03:12.236 --> 0:03:16.116 that likes to look back at my interviews. 0:03:17.316 --> 0:03:20.636 Do you listen to old recordings of yourself anymore? No? 0:03:20.876 --> 0:03:25.996 I don't listen to my records. I never have, and 0:03:26.156 --> 0:03:29.436 which is not always good. I don't think that's good. 0:03:30.436 --> 0:03:33.036 When I used to work with Mile, she used to 0:03:34.036 --> 0:03:39.396 every night that we do a concert, he'd have it 0:03:39.556 --> 0:03:46.956 recorded and come home and listen to it and therefore 0:03:47.116 --> 0:03:52.876 knowing what he needed to do or needed to delete 0:03:52.996 --> 0:03:56.636 or anything like that. I wish I had that type 0:03:56.636 --> 0:04:03.276 of personality, but generally I'm always feeling that I'm not. 0:04:05.036 --> 0:04:07.956 You know, Oh God, I hate to hear that, listen 0:04:08.036 --> 0:04:11.996 to that that it played, I should have played that better, 0:04:12.636 --> 0:04:17.316 blah blah blah. That's the type of personality that I 0:04:17.596 --> 0:04:23.116 was damned with. U disfortunately do. 0:04:24.556 --> 0:04:27.036 When Miles would listen back to those recordings, would you 0:04:27.076 --> 0:04:29.236 have you and the rest of the band listen as well? 0:04:30.596 --> 0:04:35.036 No, he would use that, I'm sure when he was 0:04:35.116 --> 0:04:41.516 rehearsing the band, but it wasn't listening everybody listening. I 0:04:41.556 --> 0:04:43.916 means he didn't need that. He listened to what he 0:04:44.756 --> 0:04:50.036 thought should be happening. And that was said. 0:04:50.916 --> 0:04:54.756 But having had the chance to look through some of 0:04:54.796 --> 0:04:57.836 the pages of your notebooks that were you were keeping 0:04:57.996 --> 0:05:02.996 from around nineteen fifty nine through the late sixties, it 0:05:03.036 --> 0:05:08.996 does appear you were very meaningfully recording thoughts about your 0:05:09.156 --> 0:05:12.676 plane and where you felt improvements could be made. So 0:05:13.636 --> 0:05:16.556 there is a part of you that was already doing that, 0:05:17.076 --> 0:05:18.796 it seems to me, but maybe just in a different 0:05:18.836 --> 0:05:19.596 and a different way. 0:05:20.596 --> 0:05:26.916 Well, I was being interviewed a lot, and I had 0:05:26.956 --> 0:05:31.076 to make comments, but something if the record came out 0:05:31.156 --> 0:05:36.276 and I had to talk about it. Yeah, I heard it, 0:05:36.436 --> 0:05:40.316 whether it was on the radio or whatever, but I 0:05:40.676 --> 0:05:46.756 didn't take it home myself and listen to it. That's 0:05:46.796 --> 0:05:51.876 what I mean. But no, I'm when I said is 0:05:51.996 --> 0:05:57.756 exactly correct. I'm not a guy that really listened. Two 0:05:57.836 --> 0:06:03.036 things that I did more than once or twice to realize, 0:06:03.156 --> 0:06:05.156 oh man, I really didn't like that. 0:06:05.756 --> 0:06:08.356 Yeah, I want to ask about Freedom Sweet if you 0:06:08.396 --> 0:06:14.596 don't mind, if you can recall what might have been 0:06:14.596 --> 0:06:18.756 on your mind around nineteen fifty eight, shortly before you 0:06:20.316 --> 0:06:23.996 take a bit of a sabbatical and you write and 0:06:24.076 --> 0:06:28.836 record Freedom Suite. It's a stunning almost twenty minute piece. 0:06:29.396 --> 0:06:33.396 That is the title song of the album as well, 0:06:33.436 --> 0:06:37.316 and it seems like it stands out in your early 0:06:37.516 --> 0:06:40.236 sort of catalog, just that there's nothing quite like that 0:06:40.316 --> 0:06:42.756 in your early catalog to that date. And so I 0:06:42.836 --> 0:06:46.196 was just curious if you can recall what was your 0:06:46.236 --> 0:06:48.796 feeling around that time when that was composed. 0:06:48.836 --> 0:06:56.796 Well, I have always been especially from that period, but 0:06:57.036 --> 0:07:04.156 also from before. I was sort of very Pabeitico guy, 0:07:05.436 --> 0:07:10.316 you know. And it's interesting out that there a lot 0:07:10.396 --> 0:07:18.956 of of no young black musicians which have been out 0:07:19.796 --> 0:07:24.636 that out that have been out you know, much more 0:07:24.716 --> 0:07:32.356 recently than either. But when I was growing up, I 0:07:32.516 --> 0:07:36.796 was born in Harlem. I used to go out when 0:07:36.836 --> 0:07:43.236 I was I think about three years old with my grandmother. 0:07:43.436 --> 0:07:48.796 My grandmother was an activist. She's very much interested in 0:07:49.556 --> 0:07:56.796 traightening out the UH in a racial situation in Harlem 0:07:57.036 --> 0:08:00.836 and in any place out the same exist today. I 0:08:00.836 --> 0:08:03.676 didn't have to explain that to you, how to say 0:08:04.316 --> 0:08:09.436 the situations. She was an activist. I think she was 0:08:09.476 --> 0:08:13.596 a member of Marcus Garvey's group at one time. 0:08:13.876 --> 0:08:14.196 Wow. 0:08:14.436 --> 0:08:19.076 But anyway, she used to carry me with her watching 0:08:19.196 --> 0:08:24.316 up and down at Lenox Favenue, for instance, and we 0:08:24.356 --> 0:08:30.596 were complaining about one of the big department stots there 0:08:31.356 --> 0:08:35.876 I think was called Ballooneberg's, which you know didn't allow 0:08:36.556 --> 0:08:40.436 the black people to innser that the counters and other 0:08:40.676 --> 0:08:45.796 kind of stuff. So I remember free Tom Mooney and 0:08:45.996 --> 0:08:51.076 the Scotts Boy, the Scott'swell boys to has and you 0:08:51.116 --> 0:08:56.156 know we're accused of rape and all that found out 0:08:57.036 --> 0:09:03.796 something like the Central Park Cathy sometimes Okay, So I 0:09:04.156 --> 0:09:10.076 was introduced to that period of activity. He had an early, 0:09:10.436 --> 0:09:14.756 very very early age, and as I said, I was 0:09:14.796 --> 0:09:19.836 the only one. My grandmother and myself. My mother was 0:09:19.876 --> 0:09:22.596 in there, she said, in power of it. My brother 0:09:23.356 --> 0:09:28.276 turned out to be a medical doctor, so he was busy, 0:09:28.356 --> 0:09:32.836 although he did he was interested in music, but not 0:09:33.036 --> 0:09:37.996 jazz music, so he ended up becoming an m day. 0:09:39.036 --> 0:09:43.036 So he quit the music thing all together and my 0:09:43.236 --> 0:09:47.876 sister just turned out to be a mother with two kids. 0:09:48.836 --> 0:09:54.916 So what I'm saying is that my grandmother would carry me, 0:09:56.276 --> 0:09:58.876 and that was I liked that. I made. Of course 0:09:58.916 --> 0:10:02.996 I such a little baby, but I like that. And 0:10:03.036 --> 0:10:07.316 then so I got to read people like W. E. B. 0:10:07.556 --> 0:10:14.276 Do Boys and other people. You guys were into the 0:10:14.316 --> 0:10:20.996 Black collaboration movement, and as I grew up and they 0:10:21.116 --> 0:10:26.916 began I remember W. E. B. Duboys. Do you know 0:10:27.156 --> 0:10:27.996 who he was? 0:10:29.116 --> 0:10:32.796 Yeah, great scholar, activist, scholar of the construction. 0:10:33.516 --> 0:10:38.316 So w the boys just say that if you ever 0:10:40.116 --> 0:10:42.636 and he wasn't talking to me, he was talking to 0:10:42.796 --> 0:10:47.516 anybody black. He said, if you ever got any place 0:10:47.636 --> 0:10:52.396 in your field, whatever it was, that you should always 0:10:52.436 --> 0:10:57.436 mention the fact that you were aware of the situation 0:10:57.716 --> 0:11:04.476 in the United Okay. So when I got to the 0:11:04.516 --> 0:11:11.276 point that I began make you records, I always used 0:11:11.356 --> 0:11:19.836 boat from in there and I emigrated. I can't. Oh, 0:11:20.196 --> 0:11:22.436 you know, I used to be a very good speaker 0:11:22.596 --> 0:11:27.316 like this. But what happened with some time ago, about 0:11:27.316 --> 0:11:31.356 a year ago, I had a very serious accident, and 0:11:31.436 --> 0:11:38.556 that it has affected my rememberance, my thought rememberance. But actually, 0:11:39.676 --> 0:11:44.636 do forgive me sometimes but whatever segment drug, I used 0:11:44.676 --> 0:11:49.156 a lot of uh nebro ballad and I put them 0:11:49.436 --> 0:11:54.396 my jazz records. You know, the libro natural I A'm from. 0:11:55.756 --> 0:12:00.036 I put that on my albums a long time ago. Yeah, 0:12:00.396 --> 0:12:03.756 but uh I think Kenny Dorham was im with me 0:12:03.956 --> 0:12:07.996 and that. But so I've I've always done that in 0:12:08.076 --> 0:12:13.076 my career. Yeah. So the Freedom Street, getting back to 0:12:13.156 --> 0:12:20.996 your question, was all coming from that place. You know, 0:12:21.196 --> 0:12:25.036 that's sort of what the Streedom Street was about, and 0:12:25.316 --> 0:12:30.356 things of your nature. I've just always had that political 0:12:32.156 --> 0:12:38.116 direction and myself, I read a book reci and it 0:12:38.436 --> 0:12:42.676 was mentioning all of these guys that they were you know, 0:12:42.876 --> 0:12:48.076 they were speaking optual, gold independent, lot of these younger 0:12:48.156 --> 0:12:53.836 magician and I was a little bit said, wait, man, 0:12:54.036 --> 0:12:57.036 where's me? I was doing this a long time ago. 0:12:57.396 --> 0:12:59.436 Yeah. 0:12:58.276 --> 0:13:05.836 Yeah, anyway, that's that's all on record. So that was 0:13:05.916 --> 0:13:06.916 the Freedom Street. 0:13:07.836 --> 0:13:12.396 You were mentioning a lot of the black ballads that 0:13:12.436 --> 0:13:16.636 you would early on, including your sets. It's interesting to 0:13:16.676 --> 0:13:19.756 me that kind of equal to those was your love 0:13:20.156 --> 0:13:25.756 of show tunes or tunes that might have appeared I've 0:13:25.756 --> 0:13:28.916 heard you talk about. You know, for instance, you've seen 0:13:28.956 --> 0:13:31.996 the movie Swing Time when you were about six years old, 0:13:32.116 --> 0:13:35.556 with Fredistaire and Ginger Rogers and a Fine Romance being 0:13:35.876 --> 0:13:38.676 a song that I was stuck with you. Oh yeah, 0:13:38.836 --> 0:13:41.756 how important were those sorts of songs to you as well? 0:13:42.716 --> 0:13:46.116 Well? I don't know. I guess if you looked back, 0:13:46.276 --> 0:13:50.676 you might say, real, see, how did you like that? 0:13:51.076 --> 0:13:55.036 And still wanter change you with it? Sire. Tune was 0:13:55.196 --> 0:14:01.436 sewed up, but didn't in those days. Our television was 0:14:01.556 --> 0:14:08.756 the movie every week, so I had a chance to 0:14:09.236 --> 0:14:14.836 ye a lot of Hollywood movie There was nothing in 0:14:15.436 --> 0:14:21.756 jail with me. For instance. My favorite composer, and I 0:14:21.876 --> 0:14:26.036 had many of them, but my favorite guy was Jerome 0:14:26.276 --> 0:14:32.396 curR oh Man. Jerome Kerr is still my favorite of 0:14:32.596 --> 0:14:37.676 those Hollywood composers, although I have many of them that 0:14:37.916 --> 0:14:43.236 I admire, deegally, but Jerome Kern was a man by 0:14:43.316 --> 0:14:47.796 the way. He did do the picture with Fred Mister 0:14:48.196 --> 0:14:49.676 and Ginger Rogers. 0:14:50.236 --> 0:14:52.996 Swing Time that was that was his tune of Fine 0:14:53.076 --> 0:14:54.316 Romance and all those other songs. 0:14:54.556 --> 0:14:59.036 Yeah yeah, all that stuff, all that and so many 0:14:59.076 --> 0:15:03.636 of his helf so but there was never any things 0:15:03.636 --> 0:15:12.916 that made those unaccessible in my I loved string Time 0:15:14.116 --> 0:15:20.316 and such film as much as I hated the fact 0:15:20.396 --> 0:15:24.516 that I couldn't go into Bloomberg SIT's with the big 0:15:24.596 --> 0:15:29.316 department store on one hundred and twenty first Street, and 0:15:29.516 --> 0:15:33.716 they were buying a soda or something at the bar. 0:15:35.236 --> 0:15:41.996 You know, my musical and my sensitivity being moved by 0:15:42.156 --> 0:15:45.956 these single's all the frame. Yeah, but I think different, 0:15:46.076 --> 0:15:51.476 not to them, to somebody that might write there, I 0:15:51.756 --> 0:15:56.676 make fall. They don't. They don't like jad. I've heard that. 0:15:57.596 --> 0:16:01.796 I've heard the guy that prayed with Johnny Green, who 0:16:01.836 --> 0:16:07.476 wrote A Body and Soul, I heard him tell me that, oh, well, 0:16:07.556 --> 0:16:13.636 Johnny Green didn't like I jazzed Beopole, we'll playing its music, 0:16:14.836 --> 0:16:19.796 you know, which to me, I wonder if that was 0:16:20.076 --> 0:16:25.916 really true, because when Johnny Green was in college, he 0:16:26.116 --> 0:16:30.676 had a group called the Hot Jazz. I mean, so 0:16:30.996 --> 0:16:33.956 you know a lot of these guys who gave that 0:16:34.076 --> 0:16:38.996 impression of, oh, our music is better than your music, 0:16:40.516 --> 0:16:42.636 you know, that kind of stuff, which might dad have 0:16:42.796 --> 0:16:44.596 really been true. 0:16:45.796 --> 0:16:49.276 And then again, if Johnny Green didn't like you guys 0:16:49.916 --> 0:16:56.236 playing his tunes, oh well, you know, maybe in a 0:16:56.276 --> 0:16:58.196 sense all the better that you guys were doing it. 0:16:58.156 --> 0:17:03.076 Then well I think it did. But whether he liked 0:17:03.076 --> 0:17:07.556 it or not, nobody could play body and so like 0:17:07.756 --> 0:17:13.116 Coleman Alkins, yeah that that was his uh masterpiece. Yeah, 0:17:13.796 --> 0:17:18.236 but it really uh was perfect for jazz, like so 0:17:18.396 --> 0:17:23.996 many of those films are anyway. I like everything that 0:17:24.196 --> 0:17:31.956 makes uh beautiful musical sounds and uh beautiful musical people 0:17:32.076 --> 0:17:35.716 and so it's all the same to me. I never 0:17:35.916 --> 0:17:40.316 had a problem whenever personally to uh some of those 0:17:40.476 --> 0:17:46.116 early movies. Bright the way when Lewis Armstrong did a 0:17:46.116 --> 0:17:50.236 single in the movie. Now, evidently there's a lot of 0:17:50.356 --> 0:17:55.636 people that they don't want that America. They want America 0:17:55.756 --> 0:18:01.916 which is propagated, and that's that's okay. I mean, it's 0:18:01.956 --> 0:18:07.236 not okay with me, but I uh, I had to 0:18:07.316 --> 0:18:12.236 accept what they think because that's the way it has 0:18:12.356 --> 0:18:18.956 turned out. But growing up, I appreciate you that Paul 0:18:19.156 --> 0:18:25.516 Robeston and all that my really idols and I wanted 0:18:25.636 --> 0:18:32.396 to be a red like human being without having to 0:18:32.476 --> 0:18:36.316 be a black human being. It's so in itself for 0:18:36.676 --> 0:18:41.076 so it all made sense to me. It still does. 0:18:42.156 --> 0:18:47.116 I'm muddy enough to realize that there's history to always 0:18:47.276 --> 0:18:52.356 people fighting each other. The stoop is fighting that they're fighting, 0:18:52.396 --> 0:18:56.476 that they're fighting that and we haven't gotten to that 0:18:56.676 --> 0:19:01.516 point yet, or I don't think we may ever get 0:19:01.636 --> 0:19:06.356 to that point in this world, or I've made my 0:19:06.516 --> 0:19:10.436 life for what it did. So I like Horded movies, 0:19:10.996 --> 0:19:17.676 co music, and I love jazz, and uh really nothing 0:19:18.796 --> 0:19:21.676 strange to my bad combination. 0:19:21.356 --> 0:19:25.556 To me, did movies continue throughout your career to be 0:19:26.676 --> 0:19:28.356 a source of inspiration to you? 0:19:29.556 --> 0:19:33.556 Yes, up until the point that I stopped going to movies. 0:19:33.636 --> 0:19:39.196 But yeah, I would say, I mean the American dream 0:19:39.916 --> 0:19:45.556 was always in lil and racist and all of this 0:19:45.756 --> 0:19:53.916 stuff somehow had never stopped me from liking, uh, finding 0:19:53.996 --> 0:19:54.796 more fashion. 0:19:59.436 --> 0:20:01.276 We'll be right back with more of a conversation with 0:20:01.316 --> 0:20:08.196 Sonny Rollins after the break. You just said that the 0:20:08.596 --> 0:20:11.516 American dream is always in you. What does that mean 0:20:11.556 --> 0:20:11.836 to you? 0:20:13.356 --> 0:20:17.476 Well, it means that there's a couder and there's a 0:20:17.596 --> 0:20:23.436 natural good, like Duke Kellington settling. They asked Duke Kellington, Well, gee, 0:20:23.516 --> 0:20:27.516 do what he thinks about this kind of music in 0:20:27.636 --> 0:20:33.996 that and Douke was known to say there's only two 0:20:34.156 --> 0:20:39.596 kinds of music, good music and bad music, and that 0:20:40.196 --> 0:20:40.916 told it all. 0:20:41.516 --> 0:20:45.076 Yeah, nothing else on that note. Would you mind if 0:20:45.116 --> 0:20:48.756 I read to you an excerpt of something you wrote 0:20:48.796 --> 0:20:52.276 in your journals from around nineteen fifty nine. 0:20:52.556 --> 0:21:01.436 Okay, surprised me because I haven't read my journals or 0:21:02.116 --> 0:21:06.876 my bigger book, so but go ahead. 0:21:06.996 --> 0:21:09.556 Yeah, okay, great, Well, I'm sorry for this. Sets you 0:21:09.596 --> 0:21:13.196 all let me know, but I think it's really beautiful. 0:21:13.516 --> 0:21:18.196 You say, even if there are more brilliant quote unquote 0:21:18.316 --> 0:21:21.956 jazz in the modern interpretations of the word, more brilliant 0:21:22.036 --> 0:21:26.276 jazz artists and innovators among the quote unquote Negro race, 0:21:27.476 --> 0:21:32.836 this in no way contradicts the quasi racial nature of jazz. 0:21:33.596 --> 0:21:37.556 And mustn't we start speaking of music all caps and 0:21:37.636 --> 0:21:41.596 not jazz? Cannot this be the same principle by which 0:21:41.676 --> 0:21:48.116 people are deluded into divisions, divisions which are treacherously misleading 0:21:48.436 --> 0:21:53.396 by their external manifestations. Who can deny that the greatest 0:21:53.396 --> 0:22:00.356 of any music is of a oneness which transcends period, style, country, 0:22:00.836 --> 0:22:04.316 et cetera. It is the same line of reasoning which 0:22:04.316 --> 0:22:09.436 separates people on the basis of their physical impressions. To 0:22:09.516 --> 0:22:12.956 be absorbed here is that any definition which seeks to 0:22:12.996 --> 0:22:16.596 separate Bach from Miles Davis is defeating its own purpose 0:22:16.716 --> 0:22:22.196 of clarification. Thus we shall now hereafter and henceforth integrate, 0:22:22.316 --> 0:22:25.316 if you will, the word jazz into the word music. 0:22:26.316 --> 0:22:29.116 The musings of Miles is then the bouncing of Bach, 0:22:29.276 --> 0:22:31.076 both played against each other. 0:22:32.196 --> 0:22:38.596 Oh well, okay, but you know, BET's exactly how I feel. 0:22:39.036 --> 0:22:41.436 Yeah, it seems to be a core part of you 0:22:41.516 --> 0:22:43.516 that believe because because just as you said now, you 0:22:43.996 --> 0:22:47.156 wrote back in nineteen fifty nine, and the same in 0:22:47.236 --> 0:22:49.796 the same way, that it's all one, not to be 0:22:50.836 --> 0:22:54.756 discerned by period or style or country or race. 0:22:55.876 --> 0:22:58.876 Oh no, I think so. But Bet may be a 0:22:58.916 --> 0:23:04.916 little bit too, I don't know, heavenly or trum like that. 0:23:05.836 --> 0:23:09.596 I mean, maybe the world is just not meant to 0:23:09.676 --> 0:23:13.716 be like that. Maybe the world is meant to be 0:23:13.956 --> 0:23:20.116 fighting and fighting all the time. But that's okay, that's 0:23:20.116 --> 0:23:23.516 that I didn't make the world. I'm not God. So 0:23:24.156 --> 0:23:28.436 if the world is the world is like this, be 0:23:28.556 --> 0:23:36.996 it must be some reason that I I'm not attuned to. 0:23:37.276 --> 0:23:43.516 I don't know everything, but the world has produced and 0:23:43.516 --> 0:23:48.036 and jazz and the whole thing. If she wanted to 0:23:48.076 --> 0:23:54.356 go further than talk about America, okay, I think that's 0:23:54.356 --> 0:24:00.356 for America too. But evidently America is not all everybody 0:24:00.436 --> 0:24:05.916 that should think like that, Richard. It's sad, but it's 0:24:06.156 --> 0:24:10.676 it's bad like that's I have to disaccept it. And 0:24:10.756 --> 0:24:16.596 I've seen people get along that's wintering. I've got a 0:24:16.676 --> 0:24:23.196 lot of white friends. So that's what I think. For me, 0:24:24.036 --> 0:24:30.076 with the great environment, my life was went playing music 0:24:30.236 --> 0:24:34.676 and trying to get better. It wasn't I could have 0:24:34.756 --> 0:24:37.876 been better, but I always loved it and I still 0:24:37.916 --> 0:24:42.596 love it. Yeah, still love Coleman Hawkins and body and Soul, 0:24:43.716 --> 0:24:49.236 and I still love Jerome Kern. I still love Nat 0:24:49.356 --> 0:24:53.916 King Cold and the Trail Can Cold till. 0:24:54.596 --> 0:24:54.996 Yeah. 0:24:55.116 --> 0:24:59.956 Yeah. It was real base and right. So I mean 0:25:01.116 --> 0:25:04.716 it's all good manterccy. At this point in my life 0:25:04.756 --> 0:25:10.876 when and the last one standing, I want that to 0:25:10.956 --> 0:25:16.276 be my epitheph. I love it all. I love it all. 0:25:17.716 --> 0:25:20.556 You just referenced me the last man's standing as we're speaking. 0:25:20.716 --> 0:25:26.836 You know, Benny Golson just passed away, right, and that 0:25:27.116 --> 0:25:30.196 really does make you the last of that fine day 0:25:30.236 --> 0:25:33.836 and Harlem photo. Yeah, which is astonishing. 0:25:34.916 --> 0:25:42.036 It's trying to change. It's a good word. It is astonishing. 0:25:42.076 --> 0:25:44.756 What came up in you when you when you heard 0:25:44.756 --> 0:25:46.556 Benny Golson had left the planet. 0:25:47.516 --> 0:25:52.876 Well, when it came down to Benny and myself at 0:25:52.916 --> 0:25:55.796 that point, you know, I had thought it for me, 0:25:57.156 --> 0:26:02.516 what isnt what? It didn't mean, It couldn't mean all that, 0:26:04.556 --> 0:26:08.676 and one of us had to go. It's okay. I mean, 0:26:08.916 --> 0:26:15.396 you know, my time is probably quite soon now, I guess. 0:26:16.116 --> 0:26:20.636 But you know, I feel okay about it. I haven't 0:26:20.716 --> 0:26:27.236 done everything I wanted to do, but I guess the 0:26:27.356 --> 0:26:32.036 fact that you're interviewing me here, and so I guess 0:26:32.116 --> 0:26:36.516 I've done some things. I've got some things right. That 0:26:36.796 --> 0:26:39.916 everything right, I've got some things right that I can 0:26:39.996 --> 0:26:46.596 be grateful for. I do have a very strong situal 0:26:46.756 --> 0:26:52.596 connection in my life now, and as you know, I've 0:26:52.676 --> 0:26:59.156 been into Eastern religion for a long time now, so 0:26:59.716 --> 0:27:04.956 you know that makes things really okay. You know, so 0:27:05.156 --> 0:27:08.476 whatever comes paid, it's okay. 0:27:09.436 --> 0:27:11.996 Do you have a daily spiritual practice these days? 0:27:13.436 --> 0:27:17.036 Well, yes, I do, but it's it's not like a 0:27:17.316 --> 0:27:22.276 prayer or something like that. I do say prayers, but 0:27:22.476 --> 0:27:27.476 not a specific prayer. You know. I went to India 0:27:27.596 --> 0:27:32.436 back in the sixties and I got some information there 0:27:32.596 --> 0:27:38.076 from some people that had something to say that interested me. 0:27:39.516 --> 0:27:44.516 I wanted to know about should I be practicing and 0:27:45.796 --> 0:27:49.556 playing and uh, you know with it. In other words, 0:27:49.716 --> 0:27:53.396 wasn't oh okay what my life was at that time? 0:27:54.956 --> 0:28:01.276 And they got assurance that it was okay. I needed 0:28:01.356 --> 0:28:06.236 that assurance. I received it from some beautiful people on 0:28:06.396 --> 0:28:14.716 not over there. So yes, that spirituality he had as off. 0:28:14.836 --> 0:28:22.836 Now I'm so happy that I did begin studying Eastern religion. 0:28:23.716 --> 0:28:28.516 I did that when I followed this guy powered my 0:28:28.636 --> 0:28:34.476 Hunter Yoga Nanda Autobiography of a Yogi, which is a 0:28:34.716 --> 0:28:39.436 very popular book. And I read that book and that 0:28:39.756 --> 0:28:45.116 boy I got to find out about this. And I 0:28:45.116 --> 0:28:51.916 had went to California wanting to meet the power Hunter 0:28:52.076 --> 0:28:55.716 over night. He had just passed over it. But so 0:28:57.036 --> 0:29:00.196 I didn't meet him. But I realized, well, look I'm 0:29:00.276 --> 0:29:06.996 going to India because it's something here. And I got 0:29:07.516 --> 0:29:13.276 a bag and my own and I went to India. 0:29:13.596 --> 0:29:19.396 Wow paid off. So glad I did it and learned something. 0:29:19.836 --> 0:29:22.036 And you passed it to us. You know in your music, 0:29:22.116 --> 0:29:27.516 your music always feels very spiritually elevated, you know, just 0:29:27.676 --> 0:29:29.996 in terms of the biographical details of your life. That's 0:29:29.996 --> 0:29:32.796 something that people are very interested in, and so it's 0:29:32.796 --> 0:29:34.516 something that's a gift that you've given all of us. 0:29:34.556 --> 0:29:35.556 So thank you so much. 0:29:36.516 --> 0:29:42.156 Well, there's so much for saying that I ain't loved. Man, 0:29:42.396 --> 0:29:46.716 I'm not my biggest fan, so I'm not a guy 0:29:46.836 --> 0:29:50.756 that think that, Oh I'm strunning. Wrong, we get out 0:29:50.756 --> 0:29:55.516 of here. I'm not my biggest friend at all. That's 0:29:55.996 --> 0:30:00.436 how we started the conversation about listening to my own 0:30:00.516 --> 0:30:04.796 music and all that. Yeah, but I didn't get it 0:30:04.796 --> 0:30:11.916 at all. But I made an impression, and I think 0:30:11.996 --> 0:30:17.596 I've learned something. I'm glad that some people have appreciated 0:30:17.716 --> 0:30:21.396 some of my work. Yeah, but I'm very happy by 0:30:21.476 --> 0:30:27.516 be but not that I appreciated it, but that I 0:30:27.716 --> 0:30:34.236 enabled them to get it, which validated me. Because you know, 0:30:34.356 --> 0:30:37.876 I'm not my biggest fan. Yeah, if you come to 0:30:37.956 --> 0:30:42.836 my house, you won't find a portrait of me all 0:30:42.836 --> 0:30:44.276 over the walls. 0:30:44.796 --> 0:30:49.996 Okay, yeah, I get that sense. You do not appear 0:30:50.036 --> 0:30:50.956 to be that person. 0:30:51.956 --> 0:30:57.396 Oh god, okay, I'm try from that kid. 0:30:59.236 --> 0:31:02.356 Last time I spoke, I neglected to ask you about 0:31:03.516 --> 0:31:09.796 Rufus Harley bagpipe player. Right, what are you remembering of him? 0:31:09.916 --> 0:31:10.636 And he's playing. 0:31:12.196 --> 0:31:16.956 I always loved Ruverson playing. When I heard him playing, 0:31:18.396 --> 0:31:22.916 I know he played saxophone before Yeah, he got into 0:31:22.996 --> 0:31:27.596 the backpacks. But anyway, he was a great magician. I 0:31:27.716 --> 0:31:32.036 think I had a great concert in New York, got 0:31:32.316 --> 0:31:41.876 at Town Hall with Dissy Gelesbie, Charlie Mingers, Rulfa Sorry, 0:31:42.836 --> 0:31:48.196 and myself. I forgot so that. That was my wife, 0:31:48.476 --> 0:31:55.956 my their departed wife, Lucil, who convinced all of those 0:31:56.036 --> 0:32:00.316 sep up to make that concert because one of the 0:32:00.356 --> 0:32:06.636 people had dropped out and that was a important concert 0:32:08.156 --> 0:32:13.156 just for my reputation, all that kind of stuff. And 0:32:13.356 --> 0:32:17.396 she got Mingus. She was a good friends with Mngus's 0:32:17.876 --> 0:32:24.036 wife for Shu, and so she got Mingus, which is 0:32:24.076 --> 0:32:27.076