Speaker 1: Pushkin. Twenty twenty four was a rough year for jazz.
Speaker 1: A lot of legends were lost, from Quincy Jones to
Speaker 1: Roy Haynes, Low Donaldson and Benny Golson. In fact, after
Speaker 1: the passing of Benny Golson, only one person remains from
Speaker 1: the iconic nineteen fifty eight photograph A Great Day in Harlem,
Speaker 1: where dozens of jazz luminaries gathered together on a stoop
Speaker 1: and Harlem to have a photograph taken to memorialize that era.
Speaker 1: That person is with us today, the great Sonny Rollins.
Speaker 1: Since I last spoke to Sonny Rollins on the program
Speaker 1: a few years ago, a couple of interesting artifacts have surfaced.
Speaker 1: One is the notebook that he kept while he was
Speaker 1: in self imposed exile for music between nineteen fifty eight
Speaker 1: and nineteen sixty one. Those were photocopied and made into
Speaker 1: a wonderful book called The Notebooks of Sonny Rollins, where
Speaker 1: you can get insight into what he was thinking about
Speaker 1: at the time, both socially, politically and in terms of
Speaker 1: his music. The other are some great live recordings of
Speaker 1: Sonny in Europe. There was also a great biography published
Speaker 1: about Sunny Rollins. Since we last spoke by Aidan Levy
Speaker 1: called Saxophone Colossus The Life and Music of Sonny Rollins.
Speaker 1: So though last year was a tough year for jazz,
Speaker 1: I'm honored at the top of twenty twenty five to
Speaker 1: bring you a conversation with a saxophone colossus himself, Sonny Rollins.
Speaker 1: This is broken record liner notes for the digital age.
Speaker 1: I'm justin Mitchman. We spoke a couple of years ago
Speaker 1: and had a really nice conversation. But I guess since
Speaker 1: that time, lots come out about you. There's been a
Speaker 1: whole set of records that were previously just bootlegs, that
Speaker 1: were sets of recordings from Europe in nineteen fifty nine
Speaker 1: came out and those were really beautiful to listen to.
Speaker 1: You had a biography come out, pretty substantial biography, and
Speaker 1: a book of your notebooks curated and distilled down into
Speaker 1: a book form.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So.
Speaker 1: I thought, man, maybe maybe it'd be cool to have
Speaker 1: another conversation and talk about some of the stuff.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm down for it. Whatever you think might
Speaker 2: be important for you or anybody else to know. Give
Speaker 2: for this shot.
Speaker 1: First of all, you did it some pretty substantial interviews.
Speaker 1: It appears to me from reading the book. For the book,
Speaker 1: was that an enjoyable process to revisit the entirety of
Speaker 1: your life the way you did well?
Speaker 2: You know, as a guy that's been around so long,
Speaker 2: if I have now you know which, who knows? I
Speaker 2: never thought i'd be when there's a large steep of spanding.
Speaker 2: But I've done a lot of interviews. I had a
Speaker 2: lot of different times, man, But I'm not a guy
Speaker 2: that likes to look back at my interviews.
Speaker 1: Do you listen to old recordings of yourself anymore? No?
Speaker 2: I don't listen to my records. I never have, and
Speaker 2: which is not always good. I don't think that's good.
Speaker 2: When I used to work with Mile, she used to
Speaker 2: every night that we do a concert, he'd have it
Speaker 2: recorded and come home and listen to it and therefore
Speaker 2: knowing what he needed to do or needed to delete
Speaker 2: or anything like that. I wish I had that type
Speaker 2: of personality, but generally I'm always feeling that I'm not.
Speaker 2: You know, Oh God, I hate to hear that, listen
Speaker 2: to that that it played, I should have played that better,
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. That's the type of personality that I
Speaker 2: was damned with. U disfortunately do.
Speaker 1: When Miles would listen back to those recordings, would you
Speaker 1: have you and the rest of the band listen as well?
Speaker 2: No, he would use that, I'm sure when he was
Speaker 2: rehearsing the band, but it wasn't listening everybody listening. I
Speaker 2: means he didn't need that. He listened to what he
Speaker 2: thought should be happening. And that was said.
Speaker 1: But having had the chance to look through some of
Speaker 1: the pages of your notebooks that were you were keeping
Speaker 1: from around nineteen fifty nine through the late sixties, it
Speaker 1: does appear you were very meaningfully recording thoughts about your
Speaker 1: plane and where you felt improvements could be made. So
Speaker 1: there is a part of you that was already doing that,
Speaker 1: it seems to me, but maybe just in a different
Speaker 1: and a different way.
Speaker 2: Well, I was being interviewed a lot, and I had
Speaker 2: to make comments, but something if the record came out
Speaker 2: and I had to talk about it. Yeah, I heard it,
Speaker 2: whether it was on the radio or whatever, but I
Speaker 2: didn't take it home myself and listen to it. That's
Speaker 2: what I mean. But no, I'm when I said is
Speaker 2: exactly correct. I'm not a guy that really listened. Two
Speaker 2: things that I did more than once or twice to realize,
Speaker 2: oh man, I really didn't like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to ask about Freedom Sweet if you
Speaker 1: don't mind, if you can recall what might have been
Speaker 1: on your mind around nineteen fifty eight, shortly before you
Speaker 1: take a bit of a sabbatical and you write and
Speaker 1: record Freedom Suite. It's a stunning almost twenty minute piece.
Speaker 1: That is the title song of the album as well,
Speaker 1: and it seems like it stands out in your early
Speaker 1: sort of catalog, just that there's nothing quite like that
Speaker 1: in your early catalog to that date. And so I
Speaker 1: was just curious if you can recall what was your
Speaker 1: feeling around that time when that was composed.
Speaker 2: Well, I have always been especially from that period, but
Speaker 2: also from before. I was sort of very Pabeitico guy,
Speaker 2: you know. And it's interesting out that there a lot
Speaker 2: of of no young black musicians which have been out
Speaker 2: that out that have been out you know, much more
Speaker 2: recently than either. But when I was growing up, I
Speaker 2: was born in Harlem. I used to go out when
Speaker 2: I was I think about three years old with my grandmother.
Speaker 2: My grandmother was an activist. She's very much interested in
Speaker 2: traightening out the UH in a racial situation in Harlem
Speaker 2: and in any place out the same exist today. I
Speaker 2: didn't have to explain that to you, how to say
Speaker 2: the situations. She was an activist. I think she was
Speaker 2: a member of Marcus Garvey's group at one time.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: But anyway, she used to carry me with her watching
Speaker 2: up and down at Lenox Favenue, for instance, and we
Speaker 2: were complaining about one of the big department stots there
Speaker 2: I think was called Ballooneberg's, which you know didn't allow
Speaker 2: the black people to innser that the counters and other
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. So I remember free Tom Mooney and
Speaker 2: the Scotts Boy, the Scott'swell boys to has and you
Speaker 2: know we're accused of rape and all that found out
Speaker 2: something like the Central Park Cathy sometimes Okay, So I
Speaker 2: was introduced to that period of activity. He had an early,
Speaker 2: very very early age, and as I said, I was
Speaker 2: the only one. My grandmother and myself. My mother was
Speaker 2: in there, she said, in power of it. My brother
Speaker 2: turned out to be a medical doctor, so he was busy,
Speaker 2: although he did he was interested in music, but not
Speaker 2: jazz music, so he ended up becoming an m day.
Speaker 2: So he quit the music thing all together and my
Speaker 2: sister just turned out to be a mother with two kids.
Speaker 2: So what I'm saying is that my grandmother would carry me,
Speaker 2: and that was I liked that. I made. Of course
Speaker 2: I such a little baby, but I like that. And
Speaker 2: then so I got to read people like W. E. B.
Speaker 2: Do Boys and other people. You guys were into the
Speaker 2: Black collaboration movement, and as I grew up and they
Speaker 2: began I remember W. E. B. Duboys. Do you know
Speaker 2: who he was?
Speaker 1: Yeah, great scholar, activist, scholar of the construction.
Speaker 2: So w the boys just say that if you ever
Speaker 2: and he wasn't talking to me, he was talking to
Speaker 2: anybody black. He said, if you ever got any place
Speaker 2: in your field, whatever it was, that you should always
Speaker 2: mention the fact that you were aware of the situation
Speaker 2: in the United Okay. So when I got to the
Speaker 2: point that I began make you records, I always used
Speaker 2: boat from in there and I emigrated. I can't. Oh,
Speaker 2: you know, I used to be a very good speaker
Speaker 2: like this. But what happened with some time ago, about
Speaker 2: a year ago, I had a very serious accident, and
Speaker 2: that it has affected my rememberance, my thought rememberance. But actually,
Speaker 2: do forgive me sometimes but whatever segment drug, I used
Speaker 2: a lot of uh nebro ballad and I put them
Speaker 2: my jazz records. You know, the libro natural I A'm from.
Speaker 2: I put that on my albums a long time ago. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but uh I think Kenny Dorham was im with me
Speaker 2: and that. But so I've I've always done that in
Speaker 2: my career. Yeah. So the Freedom Street, getting back to
Speaker 2: your question, was all coming from that place. You know,
Speaker 2: that's sort of what the Streedom Street was about, and
Speaker 2: things of your nature. I've just always had that political
Speaker 2: direction and myself, I read a book reci and it
Speaker 2: was mentioning all of these guys that they were you know,
Speaker 2: they were speaking optual, gold independent, lot of these younger
Speaker 2: magician and I was a little bit said, wait, man,
Speaker 2: where's me? I was doing this a long time ago.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, that's that's all on record. So that was
Speaker 2: the Freedom Street.
Speaker 1: You were mentioning a lot of the black ballads that
Speaker 1: you would early on, including your sets. It's interesting to
Speaker 1: me that kind of equal to those was your love
Speaker 1: of show tunes or tunes that might have appeared I've
Speaker 1: heard you talk about. You know, for instance, you've seen
Speaker 1: the movie Swing Time when you were about six years old,
Speaker 1: with Fredistaire and Ginger Rogers and a Fine Romance being
Speaker 1: a song that I was stuck with you. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: how important were those sorts of songs to you as well?
Speaker 2: Well? I don't know. I guess if you looked back,
Speaker 2: you might say, real, see, how did you like that?
Speaker 2: And still wanter change you with it? Sire. Tune was
Speaker 2: sewed up, but didn't in those days. Our television was
Speaker 2: the movie every week, so I had a chance to
Speaker 2: ye a lot of Hollywood movie There was nothing in
Speaker 2: jail with me. For instance. My favorite composer, and I
Speaker 2: had many of them, but my favorite guy was Jerome
Speaker 2: curR oh Man. Jerome Kerr is still my favorite of
Speaker 2: those Hollywood composers, although I have many of them that
Speaker 2: I admire, deegally, but Jerome Kern was a man by
Speaker 2: the way. He did do the picture with Fred Mister
Speaker 2: and Ginger Rogers.
Speaker 1: Swing Time that was that was his tune of Fine
Speaker 1: Romance and all those other songs.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, all that stuff, all that and so many
Speaker 2: of his helf so but there was never any things
Speaker 2: that made those unaccessible in my I loved string Time
Speaker 2: and such film as much as I hated the fact
Speaker 2: that I couldn't go into Bloomberg SIT's with the big
Speaker 2: department store on one hundred and twenty first Street, and
Speaker 2: they were buying a soda or something at the bar.
Speaker 2: You know, my musical and my sensitivity being moved by
Speaker 2: these single's all the frame. Yeah, but I think different,
Speaker 2: not to them, to somebody that might write there, I
Speaker 2: make fall. They don't. They don't like jad. I've heard that.
Speaker 2: I've heard the guy that prayed with Johnny Green, who
Speaker 2: wrote A Body and Soul, I heard him tell me that, oh, well,
Speaker 2: Johnny Green didn't like I jazzed Beopole, we'll playing its music,
Speaker 2: you know, which to me, I wonder if that was
Speaker 2: really true, because when Johnny Green was in college, he
Speaker 2: had a group called the Hot Jazz. I mean, so
Speaker 2: you know a lot of these guys who gave that
Speaker 2: impression of, oh, our music is better than your music,
Speaker 2: you know, that kind of stuff, which might dad have
Speaker 2: really been true.
Speaker 1: And then again, if Johnny Green didn't like you guys
Speaker 1: playing his tunes, oh well, you know, maybe in a
Speaker 1: sense all the better that you guys were doing it.
Speaker 2: Then well I think it did. But whether he liked
Speaker 2: it or not, nobody could play body and so like
Speaker 2: Coleman Alkins, yeah that that was his uh masterpiece. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it really uh was perfect for jazz, like so
Speaker 2: many of those films are anyway. I like everything that
Speaker 2: makes uh beautiful musical sounds and uh beautiful musical people
Speaker 2: and so it's all the same to me. I never
Speaker 2: had a problem whenever personally to uh some of those
Speaker 2: early movies. Bright the way when Lewis Armstrong did a
Speaker 2: single in the movie. Now, evidently there's a lot of
Speaker 2: people that they don't want that America. They want America
Speaker 2: which is propagated, and that's that's okay. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: not okay with me, but I uh, I had to
Speaker 2: accept what they think because that's the way it has
Speaker 2: turned out. But growing up, I appreciate you that Paul
Speaker 2: Robeston and all that my really idols and I wanted
Speaker 2: to be a red like human being without having to
Speaker 2: be a black human being. It's so in itself for
Speaker 2: so it all made sense to me. It still does.
Speaker 2: I'm muddy enough to realize that there's history to always
Speaker 2: people fighting each other. The stoop is fighting that they're fighting,
Speaker 2: that they're fighting that and we haven't gotten to that
Speaker 2: point yet, or I don't think we may ever get
Speaker 2: to that point in this world, or I've made my
Speaker 2: life for what it did. So I like Horded movies,
Speaker 2: co music, and I love jazz, and uh really nothing
Speaker 2: strange to my bad combination.
Speaker 1: To me, did movies continue throughout your career to be
Speaker 1: a source of inspiration to you?
Speaker 2: Yes, up until the point that I stopped going to movies.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I would say, I mean the American dream
Speaker 2: was always in lil and racist and all of this
Speaker 2: stuff somehow had never stopped me from liking, uh, finding
Speaker 2: more fashion.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more of a conversation with
Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins after the break. You just said that the
Speaker 1: American dream is always in you. What does that mean
Speaker 1: to you?
Speaker 2: Well, it means that there's a couder and there's a
Speaker 2: natural good, like Duke Kellington settling. They asked Duke Kellington, Well, gee,
Speaker 2: do what he thinks about this kind of music in
Speaker 2: that and Douke was known to say there's only two
Speaker 2: kinds of music, good music and bad music, and that
Speaker 2: told it all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, nothing else on that note. Would you mind if
Speaker 1: I read to you an excerpt of something you wrote
Speaker 1: in your journals from around nineteen fifty nine.
Speaker 2: Okay, surprised me because I haven't read my journals or
Speaker 2: my bigger book, so but go ahead.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, great, Well, I'm sorry for this. Sets you
Speaker 1: all let me know, but I think it's really beautiful.
Speaker 1: You say, even if there are more brilliant quote unquote
Speaker 1: jazz in the modern interpretations of the word, more brilliant
Speaker 1: jazz artists and innovators among the quote unquote Negro race,
Speaker 1: this in no way contradicts the quasi racial nature of jazz.
Speaker 1: And mustn't we start speaking of music all caps and
Speaker 1: not jazz? Cannot this be the same principle by which
Speaker 1: people are deluded into divisions, divisions which are treacherously misleading
Speaker 1: by their external manifestations. Who can deny that the greatest
Speaker 1: of any music is of a oneness which transcends period, style, country,
Speaker 1: et cetera. It is the same line of reasoning which
Speaker 1: separates people on the basis of their physical impressions. To
Speaker 1: be absorbed here is that any definition which seeks to
Speaker 1: separate Bach from Miles Davis is defeating its own purpose
Speaker 1: of clarification. Thus we shall now hereafter and henceforth integrate,
Speaker 1: if you will, the word jazz into the word music.
Speaker 1: The musings of Miles is then the bouncing of Bach,
Speaker 1: both played against each other.
Speaker 2: Oh well, okay, but you know, BET's exactly how I feel.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems to be a core part of you
Speaker 1: that believe because because just as you said now, you
Speaker 1: wrote back in nineteen fifty nine, and the same in
Speaker 1: the same way, that it's all one, not to be
Speaker 1: discerned by period or style or country or race.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I think so. But Bet may be a
Speaker 2: little bit too, I don't know, heavenly or trum like that.
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe the world is just not meant to
Speaker 2: be like that. Maybe the world is meant to be
Speaker 2: fighting and fighting all the time. But that's okay, that's
Speaker 2: that I didn't make the world. I'm not God. So
Speaker 2: if the world is the world is like this, be
Speaker 2: it must be some reason that I I'm not attuned to.
Speaker 2: I don't know everything, but the world has produced and
Speaker 2: and jazz and the whole thing. If she wanted to
Speaker 2: go further than talk about America, okay, I think that's
Speaker 2: for America too. But evidently America is not all everybody
Speaker 2: that should think like that, Richard. It's sad, but it's
Speaker 2: it's bad like that's I have to disaccept it. And
Speaker 2: I've seen people get along that's wintering. I've got a
Speaker 2: lot of white friends. So that's what I think. For me,
Speaker 2: with the great environment, my life was went playing music
Speaker 2: and trying to get better. It wasn't I could have
Speaker 2: been better, but I always loved it and I still
Speaker 2: love it. Yeah, still love Coleman Hawkins and body and Soul,
Speaker 2: and I still love Jerome Kern. I still love Nat
Speaker 2: King Cold and the Trail Can Cold till.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It was real base and right. So I mean
Speaker 2: it's all good manterccy. At this point in my life
Speaker 2: when and the last one standing, I want that to
Speaker 2: be my epitheph. I love it all. I love it all.
Speaker 1: You just referenced me the last man's standing as we're speaking.
Speaker 1: You know, Benny Golson just passed away, right, and that
Speaker 1: really does make you the last of that fine day
Speaker 1: and Harlem photo. Yeah, which is astonishing.
Speaker 2: It's trying to change. It's a good word. It is astonishing.
Speaker 1: What came up in you when you when you heard
Speaker 1: Benny Golson had left the planet.
Speaker 2: Well, when it came down to Benny and myself at
Speaker 2: that point, you know, I had thought it for me,
Speaker 2: what isnt what? It didn't mean, It couldn't mean all that,
Speaker 2: and one of us had to go. It's okay. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, my time is probably quite soon now, I guess.
Speaker 2: But you know, I feel okay about it. I haven't
Speaker 2: done everything I wanted to do, but I guess the
Speaker 2: fact that you're interviewing me here, and so I guess
Speaker 2: I've done some things. I've got some things right. That
Speaker 2: everything right, I've got some things right that I can
Speaker 2: be grateful for. I do have a very strong situal
Speaker 2: connection in my life now, and as you know, I've
Speaker 2: been into Eastern religion for a long time now, so
Speaker 2: you know that makes things really okay. You know, so
Speaker 2: whatever comes paid, it's okay.
Speaker 1: Do you have a daily spiritual practice these days?
Speaker 2: Well, yes, I do, but it's it's not like a
Speaker 2: prayer or something like that. I do say prayers, but
Speaker 2: not a specific prayer. You know. I went to India
Speaker 2: back in the sixties and I got some information there
Speaker 2: from some people that had something to say that interested me.
Speaker 2: I wanted to know about should I be practicing and
Speaker 2: playing and uh, you know with it. In other words,
Speaker 2: wasn't oh okay what my life was at that time?
Speaker 2: And they got assurance that it was okay. I needed
Speaker 2: that assurance. I received it from some beautiful people on
Speaker 2: not over there. So yes, that spirituality he had as off.
Speaker 2: Now I'm so happy that I did begin studying Eastern religion.
Speaker 2: I did that when I followed this guy powered my
Speaker 2: Hunter Yoga Nanda Autobiography of a Yogi, which is a
Speaker 2: very popular book. And I read that book and that
Speaker 2: boy I got to find out about this. And I
Speaker 2: had went to California wanting to meet the power Hunter
Speaker 2: over night. He had just passed over it. But so
Speaker 2: I didn't meet him. But I realized, well, look I'm
Speaker 2: going to India because it's something here. And I got
Speaker 2: a bag and my own and I went to India.
Speaker 2: Wow paid off. So glad I did it and learned something.
Speaker 1: And you passed it to us. You know in your music,
Speaker 1: your music always feels very spiritually elevated, you know, just
Speaker 1: in terms of the biographical details of your life. That's
Speaker 1: something that people are very interested in, and so it's
Speaker 1: something that's a gift that you've given all of us.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Well, there's so much for saying that I ain't loved. Man,
Speaker 2: I'm not my biggest fan, so I'm not a guy
Speaker 2: that think that, Oh I'm strunning. Wrong, we get out
Speaker 2: of here. I'm not my biggest friend at all. That's
Speaker 2: how we started the conversation about listening to my own
Speaker 2: music and all that. Yeah, but I didn't get it
Speaker 2: at all. But I made an impression, and I think
Speaker 2: I've learned something. I'm glad that some people have appreciated
Speaker 2: some of my work. Yeah, but I'm very happy by
Speaker 2: be but not that I appreciated it, but that I
Speaker 2: enabled them to get it, which validated me. Because you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not my biggest fan. Yeah, if you come to
Speaker 2: my house, you won't find a portrait of me all
Speaker 2: over the walls.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I get that sense. You do not appear
Speaker 1: to be that person.
Speaker 2: Oh god, okay, I'm try from that kid.
Speaker 1: Last time I spoke, I neglected to ask you about
Speaker 1: Rufus Harley bagpipe player. Right, what are you remembering of him?
Speaker 1: And he's playing.
Speaker 2: I always loved Ruverson playing. When I heard him playing,
Speaker 2: I know he played saxophone before Yeah, he got into
Speaker 2: the backpacks. But anyway, he was a great magician. I
Speaker 2: think I had a great concert in New York, got
Speaker 2: at Town Hall with Dissy Gelesbie, Charlie Mingers, Rulfa Sorry,
Speaker 2: and myself. I forgot so that. That was my wife,
Speaker 2: my their departed wife, Lucil, who convinced all of those
Speaker 2: sep up to make that concert because one of the
Speaker 2: people had dropped out and that was a important concert
Speaker 2: just for my reputation, all that kind of stuff. And
Speaker 2: she got Mingus. She was a good friends with Mngus's
Speaker 2: wife for Shu, and so she got Mingus, which is
Speaker 2: not easy to get Mngus to do something he doesn't
Speaker 2: want to do. And then she got Dizzy come and
Speaker 2: make that show that night.
Speaker 1: And of course you and Dizzy were great friends. Did
Speaker 1: you and Mingus get along?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean as much as as one would
Speaker 2: get along with Mingus. We had a little trouble in
Speaker 2: the beginning because Mingus didn't know me and I was
Speaker 2: playing in one of the clubs and he was playing
Speaker 2: at And you know, there's something that Max Roach and
Speaker 2: Mingus is to I guess other guys that I didn't
Speaker 2: know because I was a young guy coming on to
Speaker 2: the seat. If there were two people on the bill
Speaker 2: and Mingus would get on the stage, they'd play the
Speaker 2: whole night, the whole night. Max would do that too.
Speaker 2: I've seen Max do that due to guys. So it's
Speaker 2: kind of but you know, you have to accept it.
Speaker 2: I did, but i'd got back at Mingus one time
Speaker 2: at the Village Vanguard, who and Mingus didn't play? And
Speaker 2: Max god and call me up and I said sure,
Speaker 2: and I came up and that sort of whut a
Speaker 2: little ref between Mingus and I. Let's see who was
Speaker 2: this guy? Uh through a baraka? Oh yeah, do you
Speaker 2: know him?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I'm married yea the critic writer, critic.
Speaker 2: Right, he was in the club, and they all thought
Speaker 2: that I would sort of use surping, you know, Mingus,
Speaker 2: him and everything to play that gig, which would have
Speaker 2: been his gig. But it gave me a change to
Speaker 2: get back at Mingus. And after that, Mingus and I
Speaker 2: became close friends.
Speaker 1: Were you around his drummer, Danny Richmond Munch? I always
Speaker 1: found it interesting that he really never played with many
Speaker 1: other drum I mean, I think I can think of
Speaker 1: Max roachs a bit, but I always thought that was
Speaker 1: such a funny parent great pairing though musically, But no.
Speaker 2: I never got a change to pray with Danny Richmond.
Speaker 2: Danny Richmond was always with Mingers, fevered, and I never
Speaker 2: got a chance to hardly No, Dad Richard, but no,
Speaker 2: unfortunately we never played together. Okay, I'm sure it would
Speaker 2: have been very rockad, but I never did get a
Speaker 2: chance of private.
Speaker 1: Yeah that it would have been interesting to hear you
Speaker 1: past together, for sure. Yeah, unique player, he was, as
Speaker 1: are you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, No, No, I enjoyed his work, but
Speaker 2: I only heard him with Mingers. You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you wound up doing a couple of Stevie tunes,
Speaker 1: but you definitely did. Isn't she lovely at a certain point? Right,
Speaker 1: What did you make of the music of Stevie Wonder?
Speaker 2: Well, I think Stevie Wonder is great. I mean, Stevie
Speaker 2: Wonder had that come and touch, if I can put
Speaker 2: it that way. So he certainly was the person that
Speaker 2: appealed to the I want to use another term now,
Speaker 2: which you understand that he appealed to the hip hop generation.
Speaker 2: But he was also a really great, profound musician who
Speaker 2: was there for everybody. He was just extremely talented that
Speaker 2: he had those kind of chops. Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 2: anything I was going one day. Gear. I wouldn't have
Speaker 2: he ever played with Miles.
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think so. And what they would think
Speaker 2: of each other, that would be what I would would wonder.
Speaker 2: Would they appreciate each other?
Speaker 1: You know, there was now that you mentioned it isn't
Speaker 1: going to say about Stevie wasn't so nice, but yeah,
Speaker 1: he said, Stevie wondered, Now, now there's a sad motherfucker.
Speaker 1: He thinks I stole Michael Henderson from him, which I
Speaker 1: guess was just a player, you know, was a player, No, my.
Speaker 2: Complete character from age to say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, When I was reading through your Saxophone Colossus
Speaker 1: biography and it got to the section where you played
Speaker 1: a few songs on the Rolling Stones album, and that
Speaker 1: chapter sort of talked a bit about how that happened
Speaker 1: and sort of your thoughts about it and the thoughts
Speaker 1: of others about it. And the response is interesting because
Speaker 1: I think some people really enjoy that work. Other people
Speaker 1: may be viewed it as an inauthentic move. I was
Speaker 1: just wondering the idea of authenticity in jazz music through
Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies and eighties. Was that something that
Speaker 1: you spent a lot of time thinking about.
Speaker 2: Well, I did, and actually my wife convinced me to
Speaker 2: make that album. They finally had a way that that
Speaker 2: jazz musicians from the States could play in England. They
Speaker 2: had a band for some unions all right. Anyway, finally
Speaker 2: they began playing and using British traditions, playing with people
Speaker 2: getting up, following over there and everything like that. Somehow
Speaker 2: I found out that men Jagon wanted me to play
Speaker 2: in one of their records. So my reaction was that
Speaker 2: I thought that that would be a come down for
Speaker 2: me to do that, and I really had to argue
Speaker 2: with my wife about that, so she convinced me to
Speaker 2: do it. But to me, it was a come down
Speaker 2: to do that.
Speaker 1: Is that because it felt inauthentic to you or for
Speaker 1: some other reason.
Speaker 2: Well, it didn't. Jeet was of a higher level than
Speaker 2: the blues that they were playing. Yeah, that's all. I mean,
Speaker 2: there wasn't anything except that.
Speaker 3: Now, I mean, come on, you, what do you want
Speaker 3: you want to hit Charlie Parker or would you want
Speaker 3: to hear uh into those guys understand.
Speaker 2: Yes, so that's the way I was putting out completely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but then the the Beatles and Stevie Wonder as
Speaker 1: popular musicians felt much more on a similar plane, at
Speaker 1: least to you.
Speaker 2: Yes, and in the terms of uh, the Beatles that
Speaker 2: have a more rounded repertoire and sewing than the Romans showings. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: the Roman Stones did ask me to do the tour
Speaker 2: of that record that they had put out that I
Speaker 2: would throwing tattoo.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. After this last break, we'll be back
Speaker 1: with the rest of my conversation with Sonny Robins. Would
Speaker 1: you say, in a sense the different classes of saxophone
Speaker 1: players from alto soprano, alto tenor baritone, I mean, were
Speaker 1: those almost like weight classes in boxing in a sense.
Speaker 2: Well, tenor saxophone took the prime feet because at one
Speaker 2: time we had some beautiful Of course, we had the
Speaker 2: great Charlie Parker, the Beaba Up Originator, and that really
Speaker 2: shook everything up for a while. But then came the
Speaker 2: tender Place, whole Train, Pitture, Gordon and what l Gray,
Speaker 2: all these people, this guy's Funny Rowins, all these guys
Speaker 2: so the Tender became the folkrom.
Speaker 1: I would say, it's almost as if because Charlie Parker
Speaker 1: on Alto was just so groundbreaking and just so revered
Speaker 1: that it almost in hindsight appears that everyone just kind
Speaker 1: of took a different path after this, like maybe we
Speaker 1: need to steer clear of the Alto And could that
Speaker 1: have been what sort of made so many great players
Speaker 1: coalesce around tenor.
Speaker 2: We also had the great Coleman Hawkins, a great Lester Young,
Speaker 2: the great Ben Webster. Yeah, they're great, Showberry. These are
Speaker 2: some great, great players. Now this led Charlie Parker have
Speaker 2: it because Charlie Parker did what he did, which was
Speaker 2: beyond instrumentation, So he was always Charlie Parker or Altough,
Speaker 2: but Tender began to take pretty dominant position. We all
Speaker 2: know we couldn't beat Charlie Parker, but we could be
Speaker 2: less to Young h the great, great great rest to Young. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so they each had their own place out though. Of
Speaker 2: course we had Johnny Hodges, the great great auto player
Speaker 2: from Duke Elgin's cooop, and we had Benny Carter, another
Speaker 2: great great Alto player. If you played altough great like
Speaker 2: these guys said, well, you would set nobody is going
Speaker 2: to mess with Benny Carter. They could admit and my
Speaker 2: him admit that he was first christ right. And when
Speaker 2: it came to ten and wall I February had a
Speaker 2: lot of feeble. My favorite the great Coleman Hawkins, but
Speaker 2: also my other favorite was the great Less to Him,
Speaker 2: both extremely different than this style for fill so so great.
Speaker 1: I just had a point of clarification. I read one place,
Speaker 1: but I haven't been able to find it anywhere else
Speaker 1: that you did play in Lionelhampton's band in the early fifties.
Speaker 1: Did you ever play in Hampton's band when Quincy Jones
Speaker 1: was in the band? No, no, okay.
Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot of big band experience because
Speaker 2: just as I getting to be extremely famous, I started
Speaker 2: playing with Small Ghost and so the big brands. In
Speaker 2: a way, I am missed opportunity, but time just brought
Speaker 2: me to be the one I never pardon with these guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what did you make of Quincy Jones? Because he's
Speaker 1: someone who started in jazz and it never seemed to
Speaker 1: leave him. It seemed like he always had a deep
Speaker 1: love of jazz throughout his life, but would often go
Speaker 1: out into other areas of music.
Speaker 2: Well, Quincy had a very wide relationship for jazz. I
Speaker 2: remember when I first met Clint. We was playing in
Speaker 2: Philadelphia and we were trying to get the last tray
Speaker 2: coming to New York and get that last strain after
Speaker 2: the last show his Philadelphia. Wow. Well boy, then you
Speaker 2: rushed down to the station and to get that chrain.
Speaker 2: Sometimes you caught it, sometimes you didn't. I remember with
Speaker 2: Quincher he didn't catch it one night, a real uh
Speaker 2: pain in the neck productive at the strain belly, Oh
Speaker 2: at night. Good boy. He had a lot of composition
Speaker 2: and winch He definitely made an impression.
Speaker 1: It seemed at first he really did want to be
Speaker 1: an ace trumpet player, but at some point realized, well
Speaker 1: I have all these other things that I like and
Speaker 1: can do composing and arranging. And he did manage to
Speaker 1: find his place, you know, even if it wasn't the
Speaker 1: initial thing he set out for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that he wouldn't be filled that player.
Speaker 2: I'm not certain, but she was. When I first got
Speaker 2: involved with the Quince, he was playing trumpet in Diysy
Speaker 2: Chalstree's orchestra. No I've never heard of him played trump
Speaker 2: and half the best. I guess he began composer and
Speaker 2: pay that took over.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a terrific a musician to listen musician.
Speaker 1: Did you guys keep in touch over the years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, meet Quincey a lot of times at the White
Speaker 2: House and places like that when he both be selected
Speaker 2: at being extraordinary musician.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you guys received the Presidential Medal of Freedom
Speaker 1: from Barack Obama.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Quincey was probably the day. Yeah, I uh
Speaker 2: remember one time I stay at the Fourth Seasons in
Speaker 2: New York and he came Quincy. This was the time
Speaker 2: of nine and eleven. Quincy came in with some other
Speaker 2: people and the head on this in head the workers June.
Speaker 2: So I gets through the writing something that had to
Speaker 2: do with ninety eleven or something. But he wrote some
Speaker 2: kind of music, probably commemorate. Yes, had a terrible incident
Speaker 2: that happened to it.
Speaker 1: Now, what about lou Donaldson?
Speaker 2: Did you cross past Lord Donaldson? Lord Donaldson was one
Speaker 2: of my best saxophone this He was just a wonderful
Speaker 2: a person, you know, as well as great The months
Speaker 2: of days i't talking about had great, great talent, but
Speaker 2: they were all twelve wonderful people that thought so great
Speaker 2: about Chads. All of these guys were wonderful people. Loud Donaldson,
Speaker 2: I wrote something I loved thing after he passed because
Speaker 2: I felt so close to low But I never got
Speaker 2: a change to see him in later years. But I
Speaker 2: felt so close to because they were good friends in
Speaker 2: the early years when he first came on the scene.
Speaker 2: And uh, we knew each other the way back when
Speaker 2: we used to follow a New York child had the
Speaker 2: polo ground to New York. Wow, privilege drive into known,
Speaker 2: Lord donalds mm hmm. While we're here, you better try
Speaker 2: to be ready to be judged by something some way,
Speaker 2: who knows where. But you let me judge. You met
Speaker 2: me a good guy. I've seen guys that were not
Speaker 2: so good, and I've seen some good guys anyway, Lord
Speaker 2: Donald's ape us. Yeah.
Speaker 1: After Quincy passed away, there was a quote circulating where
Speaker 1: he said that early on he learned that your music
Speaker 1: can ever be more or less than who you are
Speaker 1: as a human being. And your comment that so many
Speaker 1: of these jazz guys and guys were beautiful human beings,
Speaker 1: I mean, the reason that I feel it seems it
Speaker 1: must be the reason it's been able to last as
Speaker 1: long as it has is because of the spirit that's
Speaker 1: imbued in it from it's practitioners. It's really you guys
Speaker 1: are really trying to relate to the human condition as
Speaker 1: closely as you possibly could, you know, And it feels
Speaker 1: that way still.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know how it happened, but I mean,
Speaker 2: I guess that's how it happened. We were so close
Speaker 2: to the human condition through music is pretty great thing.
Speaker 2: All of the guys I know who had a well
Speaker 2: known musician were very nice people, very nice people. But
Speaker 2: wasn't all of this stuff for gree Suddenly now you're
Speaker 2: competing with this guy or in all this that was
Speaker 2: not on. Once we played together, they realize, Man, this
Speaker 2: guy must have really studied. He had a great natural
Speaker 2: ability that only God give us. And yet there were
Speaker 2: beautiful people. I wish there was something else besides that.
Speaker 2: There's hull of fame to under these people from what
Speaker 2: they are, from what they had to go through. They
Speaker 2: were accepted in America. It took a while before everybody realized, wow,
Speaker 2: we get that artistry. And now you know who was there.
Speaker 2: Lou Donaldson's on Oh man, well it's stunistain. You know,
Speaker 2: it's life. I don't control life. I just try to
Speaker 2: live it right.
Speaker 1: Well, we don't control we just experienced it. But it
Speaker 1: does feel you know. Yeah, I mean since we spoke,
Speaker 1: we lost those people and and and and also including
Speaker 1: Roy Haynes.
Speaker 2: You know Roy Haynes, the guy that I never thought
Speaker 2: would not be here. Yeah, well at least I thought
Speaker 2: tithing out of Hanley, for he would.
Speaker 4: It's all they played with different order, first chairs honors
Speaker 4: and uh he handswered the wonderful person out and and
Speaker 4: uh through the great honor.
Speaker 2: No. Roy had to play with them on many occasions,
Speaker 2: the uh great much of my music that I played,
Speaker 2: I remember I did some nation of things and Roy
Speaker 2: was there right on it and then help. I want
Speaker 2: to thank Roy. Yes in faith I've been doing before,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't do it now, man, thanks joys to being
Speaker 2: being a great guy. Life is really I had to
Speaker 2: go one dementia. We don't know much about it.
Speaker 1: Do you feel as time goes on you get more
Speaker 1: comfortable with it not knowing?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yes I do. I do. Because I tried to
Speaker 2: get more like a spiritual understanding of life. I have
Speaker 2: learned a lot and it's comforted me through my uh
Speaker 2: period of light. I'm just sorry I couldn't hang I
Speaker 2: was telling my friends. But by being a musician, I've
Speaker 2: reached a lot of people which I couldn't reach other
Speaker 2: other than the your music. Yeah, and they hearing my music.
Speaker 2: So I'm grateful, absolutely grateful, And whatever it is I'll
Speaker 2: say soon I can send there for whole good. Whatever
Speaker 2: happened to me in my life, with what has happened
Speaker 2: to me and what's going to happen to me, it's
Speaker 2: all good. Boy, have I have I been but enormous by.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much. I mean again, I would,
Speaker 1: you know, love to give you a ring another time
Speaker 1: and maybe were gonna have another conversation. He's a really
Speaker 1: enlightening so thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Well, remember though I'm one of the last guys standing, well,
Speaker 2: I am the last guy say so. It's a cop,
Speaker 2: you know. Don't wait too long.
Speaker 1: All right, Thank you so much, sir.
Speaker 2: Okay man, God bless, I'll talk to you later.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for Sunny Rollins, for getting on the
Speaker 1: phone with me and reflecting back about some of his
Speaker 1: colleagues and about his life and art. I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: that we still have him here at the age of
Speaker 1: ninety four. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
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Speaker 1: at broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by
Speaker 1: Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan.
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Ben Tolladay. Broken Record is a production
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Speaker 1: podcast aff Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.