1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:22,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Twenty twenty four was a rough year for jazz. 2 00:00:23,036 --> 00:00:25,356 Speaker 1: A lot of legends were lost, from Quincy Jones to 3 00:00:25,436 --> 00:00:29,596 Speaker 1: Roy Haynes, Low Donaldson and Benny Golson. In fact, after 4 00:00:29,636 --> 00:00:32,676 Speaker 1: the passing of Benny Golson, only one person remains from 5 00:00:32,676 --> 00:00:36,196 Speaker 1: the iconic nineteen fifty eight photograph A Great Day in Harlem, 6 00:00:36,316 --> 00:00:39,276 Speaker 1: where dozens of jazz luminaries gathered together on a stoop 7 00:00:39,316 --> 00:00:42,636 Speaker 1: and Harlem to have a photograph taken to memorialize that era. 8 00:00:43,596 --> 00:00:47,236 Speaker 1: That person is with us today, the great Sonny Rollins. 9 00:00:48,196 --> 00:00:50,236 Speaker 1: Since I last spoke to Sonny Rollins on the program 10 00:00:50,276 --> 00:00:53,596 Speaker 1: a few years ago, a couple of interesting artifacts have surfaced. 11 00:00:53,676 --> 00:00:56,636 Speaker 1: One is the notebook that he kept while he was 12 00:00:56,716 --> 00:00:59,716 Speaker 1: in self imposed exile for music between nineteen fifty eight 13 00:00:59,716 --> 00:01:03,236 Speaker 1: and nineteen sixty one. Those were photocopied and made into 14 00:01:03,236 --> 00:01:05,756 Speaker 1: a wonderful book called The Notebooks of Sonny Rollins, where 15 00:01:05,796 --> 00:01:07,716 Speaker 1: you can get insight into what he was thinking about 16 00:01:07,756 --> 00:01:11,236 Speaker 1: at the time, both socially, politically and in terms of 17 00:01:11,276 --> 00:01:14,476 Speaker 1: his music. The other are some great live recordings of 18 00:01:14,516 --> 00:01:17,596 Speaker 1: Sonny in Europe. There was also a great biography published 19 00:01:17,596 --> 00:01:20,316 Speaker 1: about Sunny Rollins. Since we last spoke by Aidan Levy 20 00:01:20,356 --> 00:01:23,596 Speaker 1: called Saxophone Colossus The Life and Music of Sonny Rollins. 21 00:01:24,556 --> 00:01:26,396 Speaker 1: So though last year was a tough year for jazz, 22 00:01:26,476 --> 00:01:28,836 Speaker 1: I'm honored at the top of twenty twenty five to 23 00:01:28,876 --> 00:01:35,476 Speaker 1: bring you a conversation with a saxophone colossus himself, Sonny Rollins. 24 00:01:36,836 --> 00:01:40,116 Speaker 1: This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. 25 00:01:40,276 --> 00:01:47,636 Speaker 1: I'm justin Mitchman. We spoke a couple of years ago 26 00:01:48,116 --> 00:01:51,356 Speaker 1: and had a really nice conversation. But I guess since 27 00:01:51,356 --> 00:01:54,516 Speaker 1: that time, lots come out about you. There's been a 28 00:01:54,556 --> 00:01:58,516 Speaker 1: whole set of records that were previously just bootlegs, that 29 00:01:58,596 --> 00:02:02,436 Speaker 1: were sets of recordings from Europe in nineteen fifty nine 30 00:02:02,596 --> 00:02:04,636 Speaker 1: came out and those were really beautiful to listen to. 31 00:02:05,596 --> 00:02:09,476 Speaker 1: You had a biography come out, pretty substantial biography, and 32 00:02:09,836 --> 00:02:12,796 Speaker 1: a book of your notebooks curated and distilled down into 33 00:02:12,836 --> 00:02:14,396 Speaker 1: a book form. 34 00:02:15,116 --> 00:02:16,996 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So. 35 00:02:16,956 --> 00:02:18,836 Speaker 1: I thought, man, maybe maybe it'd be cool to have 36 00:02:18,876 --> 00:02:21,276 Speaker 1: another conversation and talk about some of the stuff. 37 00:02:22,036 --> 00:02:26,276 Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm down for it. Whatever you think might 38 00:02:26,356 --> 00:02:33,676 Speaker 2: be important for you or anybody else to know. Give 39 00:02:33,756 --> 00:02:34,396 Speaker 2: for this shot. 40 00:02:36,036 --> 00:02:38,836 Speaker 1: First of all, you did it some pretty substantial interviews. 41 00:02:38,876 --> 00:02:41,596 Speaker 1: It appears to me from reading the book. For the book, 42 00:02:41,756 --> 00:02:45,516 Speaker 1: was that an enjoyable process to revisit the entirety of 43 00:02:45,556 --> 00:02:48,036 Speaker 1: your life the way you did well? 44 00:02:48,276 --> 00:02:52,876 Speaker 2: You know, as a guy that's been around so long, 45 00:02:53,036 --> 00:02:57,156 Speaker 2: if I have now you know which, who knows? I 46 00:02:57,316 --> 00:03:01,436 Speaker 2: never thought i'd be when there's a large steep of spanding. 47 00:03:01,956 --> 00:03:06,876 Speaker 2: But I've done a lot of interviews. I had a 48 00:03:06,916 --> 00:03:12,196 Speaker 2: lot of different times, man, But I'm not a guy 49 00:03:12,236 --> 00:03:16,116 Speaker 2: that likes to look back at my interviews. 50 00:03:17,316 --> 00:03:20,636 Speaker 1: Do you listen to old recordings of yourself anymore? No? 51 00:03:20,876 --> 00:03:25,996 Speaker 2: I don't listen to my records. I never have, and 52 00:03:26,156 --> 00:03:29,436 Speaker 2: which is not always good. I don't think that's good. 53 00:03:30,436 --> 00:03:33,036 Speaker 2: When I used to work with Mile, she used to 54 00:03:34,036 --> 00:03:39,396 Speaker 2: every night that we do a concert, he'd have it 55 00:03:39,556 --> 00:03:46,956 Speaker 2: recorded and come home and listen to it and therefore 56 00:03:47,116 --> 00:03:52,876 Speaker 2: knowing what he needed to do or needed to delete 57 00:03:52,996 --> 00:03:56,636 Speaker 2: or anything like that. I wish I had that type 58 00:03:56,636 --> 00:04:03,276 Speaker 2: of personality, but generally I'm always feeling that I'm not. 59 00:04:05,036 --> 00:04:07,956 Speaker 2: You know, Oh God, I hate to hear that, listen 60 00:04:08,036 --> 00:04:11,996 Speaker 2: to that that it played, I should have played that better, 61 00:04:12,636 --> 00:04:17,316 Speaker 2: blah blah blah. That's the type of personality that I 62 00:04:17,596 --> 00:04:23,116 Speaker 2: was damned with. U disfortunately do. 63 00:04:24,556 --> 00:04:27,036 Speaker 1: When Miles would listen back to those recordings, would you 64 00:04:27,076 --> 00:04:29,236 Speaker 1: have you and the rest of the band listen as well? 65 00:04:30,596 --> 00:04:35,036 Speaker 2: No, he would use that, I'm sure when he was 66 00:04:35,116 --> 00:04:41,516 Speaker 2: rehearsing the band, but it wasn't listening everybody listening. I 67 00:04:41,556 --> 00:04:43,916 Speaker 2: means he didn't need that. He listened to what he 68 00:04:44,756 --> 00:04:50,036 Speaker 2: thought should be happening. And that was said. 69 00:04:50,916 --> 00:04:54,756 Speaker 1: But having had the chance to look through some of 70 00:04:54,796 --> 00:04:57,836 Speaker 1: the pages of your notebooks that were you were keeping 71 00:04:57,996 --> 00:05:02,996 Speaker 1: from around nineteen fifty nine through the late sixties, it 72 00:05:03,036 --> 00:05:08,996 Speaker 1: does appear you were very meaningfully recording thoughts about your 73 00:05:09,156 --> 00:05:12,676 Speaker 1: plane and where you felt improvements could be made. So 74 00:05:13,636 --> 00:05:16,556 Speaker 1: there is a part of you that was already doing that, 75 00:05:17,076 --> 00:05:18,796 Speaker 1: it seems to me, but maybe just in a different 76 00:05:18,836 --> 00:05:19,596 Speaker 1: and a different way. 77 00:05:20,596 --> 00:05:26,916 Speaker 2: Well, I was being interviewed a lot, and I had 78 00:05:26,956 --> 00:05:31,076 Speaker 2: to make comments, but something if the record came out 79 00:05:31,156 --> 00:05:36,276 Speaker 2: and I had to talk about it. Yeah, I heard it, 80 00:05:36,436 --> 00:05:40,316 Speaker 2: whether it was on the radio or whatever, but I 81 00:05:40,676 --> 00:05:46,756 Speaker 2: didn't take it home myself and listen to it. That's 82 00:05:46,796 --> 00:05:51,876 Speaker 2: what I mean. But no, I'm when I said is 83 00:05:51,996 --> 00:05:57,756 Speaker 2: exactly correct. I'm not a guy that really listened. Two 84 00:05:57,836 --> 00:06:03,036 Speaker 2: things that I did more than once or twice to realize, 85 00:06:03,156 --> 00:06:05,156 Speaker 2: oh man, I really didn't like that. 86 00:06:05,756 --> 00:06:08,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to ask about Freedom Sweet if you 87 00:06:08,396 --> 00:06:14,596 Speaker 1: don't mind, if you can recall what might have been 88 00:06:14,596 --> 00:06:18,756 Speaker 1: on your mind around nineteen fifty eight, shortly before you 89 00:06:20,316 --> 00:06:23,996 Speaker 1: take a bit of a sabbatical and you write and 90 00:06:24,076 --> 00:06:28,836 Speaker 1: record Freedom Suite. It's a stunning almost twenty minute piece. 91 00:06:29,396 --> 00:06:33,396 Speaker 1: That is the title song of the album as well, 92 00:06:33,436 --> 00:06:37,316 Speaker 1: and it seems like it stands out in your early 93 00:06:37,516 --> 00:06:40,236 Speaker 1: sort of catalog, just that there's nothing quite like that 94 00:06:40,316 --> 00:06:42,756 Speaker 1: in your early catalog to that date. And so I 95 00:06:42,836 --> 00:06:46,196 Speaker 1: was just curious if you can recall what was your 96 00:06:46,236 --> 00:06:48,796 Speaker 1: feeling around that time when that was composed. 97 00:06:48,836 --> 00:06:56,796 Speaker 2: Well, I have always been especially from that period, but 98 00:06:57,036 --> 00:07:04,156 Speaker 2: also from before. I was sort of very Pabeitico guy, 99 00:07:05,436 --> 00:07:10,316 Speaker 2: you know. And it's interesting out that there a lot 100 00:07:10,396 --> 00:07:18,956 Speaker 2: of of no young black musicians which have been out 101 00:07:19,796 --> 00:07:24,636 Speaker 2: that out that have been out you know, much more 102 00:07:24,716 --> 00:07:32,356 Speaker 2: recently than either. But when I was growing up, I 103 00:07:32,516 --> 00:07:36,796 Speaker 2: was born in Harlem. I used to go out when 104 00:07:36,836 --> 00:07:43,236 Speaker 2: I was I think about three years old with my grandmother. 105 00:07:43,436 --> 00:07:48,796 Speaker 2: My grandmother was an activist. She's very much interested in 106 00:07:49,556 --> 00:07:56,796 Speaker 2: traightening out the UH in a racial situation in Harlem 107 00:07:57,036 --> 00:08:00,836 Speaker 2: and in any place out the same exist today. I 108 00:08:00,836 --> 00:08:03,676 Speaker 2: didn't have to explain that to you, how to say 109 00:08:04,316 --> 00:08:09,436 Speaker 2: the situations. She was an activist. I think she was 110 00:08:09,476 --> 00:08:13,596 Speaker 2: a member of Marcus Garvey's group at one time. 111 00:08:13,876 --> 00:08:14,196 Speaker 1: Wow. 112 00:08:14,436 --> 00:08:19,076 Speaker 2: But anyway, she used to carry me with her watching 113 00:08:19,196 --> 00:08:24,316 Speaker 2: up and down at Lenox Favenue, for instance, and we 114 00:08:24,356 --> 00:08:30,596 Speaker 2: were complaining about one of the big department stots there 115 00:08:31,356 --> 00:08:35,876 Speaker 2: I think was called Ballooneberg's, which you know didn't allow 116 00:08:36,556 --> 00:08:40,436 Speaker 2: the black people to innser that the counters and other 117 00:08:40,676 --> 00:08:45,796 Speaker 2: kind of stuff. So I remember free Tom Mooney and 118 00:08:45,996 --> 00:08:51,076 Speaker 2: the Scotts Boy, the Scott'swell boys to has and you 119 00:08:51,116 --> 00:08:56,156 Speaker 2: know we're accused of rape and all that found out 120 00:08:57,036 --> 00:09:03,796 Speaker 2: something like the Central Park Cathy sometimes Okay, So I 121 00:09:04,156 --> 00:09:10,076 Speaker 2: was introduced to that period of activity. He had an early, 122 00:09:10,436 --> 00:09:14,756 Speaker 2: very very early age, and as I said, I was 123 00:09:14,796 --> 00:09:19,836 Speaker 2: the only one. My grandmother and myself. My mother was 124 00:09:19,876 --> 00:09:22,596 Speaker 2: in there, she said, in power of it. My brother 125 00:09:23,356 --> 00:09:28,276 Speaker 2: turned out to be a medical doctor, so he was busy, 126 00:09:28,356 --> 00:09:32,836 Speaker 2: although he did he was interested in music, but not 127 00:09:33,036 --> 00:09:37,996 Speaker 2: jazz music, so he ended up becoming an m day. 128 00:09:39,036 --> 00:09:43,036 Speaker 2: So he quit the music thing all together and my 129 00:09:43,236 --> 00:09:47,876 Speaker 2: sister just turned out to be a mother with two kids. 130 00:09:48,836 --> 00:09:54,916 Speaker 2: So what I'm saying is that my grandmother would carry me, 131 00:09:56,276 --> 00:09:58,876 Speaker 2: and that was I liked that. I made. Of course 132 00:09:58,916 --> 00:10:02,996 Speaker 2: I such a little baby, but I like that. And 133 00:10:03,036 --> 00:10:07,316 Speaker 2: then so I got to read people like W. E. B. 134 00:10:07,556 --> 00:10:14,276 Speaker 2: Do Boys and other people. You guys were into the 135 00:10:14,316 --> 00:10:20,996 Speaker 2: Black collaboration movement, and as I grew up and they 136 00:10:21,116 --> 00:10:26,916 Speaker 2: began I remember W. E. B. Duboys. Do you know 137 00:10:27,156 --> 00:10:27,996 Speaker 2: who he was? 138 00:10:29,116 --> 00:10:32,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, great scholar, activist, scholar of the construction. 139 00:10:33,516 --> 00:10:38,316 Speaker 2: So w the boys just say that if you ever 140 00:10:40,116 --> 00:10:42,636 Speaker 2: and he wasn't talking to me, he was talking to 141 00:10:42,796 --> 00:10:47,516 Speaker 2: anybody black. He said, if you ever got any place 142 00:10:47,636 --> 00:10:52,396 Speaker 2: in your field, whatever it was, that you should always 143 00:10:52,436 --> 00:10:57,436 Speaker 2: mention the fact that you were aware of the situation 144 00:10:57,716 --> 00:11:04,476 Speaker 2: in the United Okay. So when I got to the 145 00:11:04,516 --> 00:11:11,276 Speaker 2: point that I began make you records, I always used 146 00:11:11,356 --> 00:11:19,836 Speaker 2: boat from in there and I emigrated. I can't. Oh, 147 00:11:20,196 --> 00:11:22,436 Speaker 2: you know, I used to be a very good speaker 148 00:11:22,596 --> 00:11:27,316 Speaker 2: like this. But what happened with some time ago, about 149 00:11:27,316 --> 00:11:31,356 Speaker 2: a year ago, I had a very serious accident, and 150 00:11:31,436 --> 00:11:38,556 Speaker 2: that it has affected my rememberance, my thought rememberance. But actually, 151 00:11:39,676 --> 00:11:44,636 Speaker 2: do forgive me sometimes but whatever segment drug, I used 152 00:11:44,676 --> 00:11:49,156 Speaker 2: a lot of uh nebro ballad and I put them 153 00:11:49,436 --> 00:11:54,396 Speaker 2: my jazz records. You know, the libro natural I A'm from. 154 00:11:55,756 --> 00:12:00,036 Speaker 2: I put that on my albums a long time ago. Yeah, 155 00:12:00,396 --> 00:12:03,756 Speaker 2: but uh I think Kenny Dorham was im with me 156 00:12:03,956 --> 00:12:07,996 Speaker 2: and that. But so I've I've always done that in 157 00:12:08,076 --> 00:12:13,076 Speaker 2: my career. Yeah. So the Freedom Street, getting back to 158 00:12:13,156 --> 00:12:20,996 Speaker 2: your question, was all coming from that place. You know, 159 00:12:21,196 --> 00:12:25,036 Speaker 2: that's sort of what the Streedom Street was about, and 160 00:12:25,316 --> 00:12:30,356 Speaker 2: things of your nature. I've just always had that political 161 00:12:32,156 --> 00:12:38,116 Speaker 2: direction and myself, I read a book reci and it 162 00:12:38,436 --> 00:12:42,676 Speaker 2: was mentioning all of these guys that they were you know, 163 00:12:42,876 --> 00:12:48,076 Speaker 2: they were speaking optual, gold independent, lot of these younger 164 00:12:48,156 --> 00:12:53,836 Speaker 2: magician and I was a little bit said, wait, man, 165 00:12:54,036 --> 00:12:57,036 Speaker 2: where's me? I was doing this a long time ago. 166 00:12:57,396 --> 00:12:59,436 Speaker 1: Yeah. 167 00:12:58,276 --> 00:13:05,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, that's that's all on record. So that was 168 00:13:05,916 --> 00:13:06,916 Speaker 2: the Freedom Street. 169 00:13:07,836 --> 00:13:12,396 Speaker 1: You were mentioning a lot of the black ballads that 170 00:13:12,436 --> 00:13:16,636 Speaker 1: you would early on, including your sets. It's interesting to 171 00:13:16,676 --> 00:13:19,756 Speaker 1: me that kind of equal to those was your love 172 00:13:20,156 --> 00:13:25,756 Speaker 1: of show tunes or tunes that might have appeared I've 173 00:13:25,756 --> 00:13:28,916 Speaker 1: heard you talk about. You know, for instance, you've seen 174 00:13:28,956 --> 00:13:31,996 Speaker 1: the movie Swing Time when you were about six years old, 175 00:13:32,116 --> 00:13:35,556 Speaker 1: with Fredistaire and Ginger Rogers and a Fine Romance being 176 00:13:35,876 --> 00:13:38,676 Speaker 1: a song that I was stuck with you. Oh yeah, 177 00:13:38,836 --> 00:13:41,756 Speaker 1: how important were those sorts of songs to you as well? 178 00:13:42,716 --> 00:13:46,116 Speaker 2: Well? I don't know. I guess if you looked back, 179 00:13:46,276 --> 00:13:50,676 Speaker 2: you might say, real, see, how did you like that? 180 00:13:51,076 --> 00:13:55,036 Speaker 2: And still wanter change you with it? Sire. Tune was 181 00:13:55,196 --> 00:14:01,436 Speaker 2: sewed up, but didn't in those days. Our television was 182 00:14:01,556 --> 00:14:08,756 Speaker 2: the movie every week, so I had a chance to 183 00:14:09,236 --> 00:14:14,836 Speaker 2: ye a lot of Hollywood movie There was nothing in 184 00:14:15,436 --> 00:14:21,756 Speaker 2: jail with me. For instance. My favorite composer, and I 185 00:14:21,876 --> 00:14:26,036 Speaker 2: had many of them, but my favorite guy was Jerome 186 00:14:26,276 --> 00:14:32,396 Speaker 2: curR oh Man. Jerome Kerr is still my favorite of 187 00:14:32,596 --> 00:14:37,676 Speaker 2: those Hollywood composers, although I have many of them that 188 00:14:37,916 --> 00:14:43,236 Speaker 2: I admire, deegally, but Jerome Kern was a man by 189 00:14:43,316 --> 00:14:47,796 Speaker 2: the way. He did do the picture with Fred Mister 190 00:14:48,196 --> 00:14:49,676 Speaker 2: and Ginger Rogers. 191 00:14:50,236 --> 00:14:52,996 Speaker 1: Swing Time that was that was his tune of Fine 192 00:14:53,076 --> 00:14:54,316 Speaker 1: Romance and all those other songs. 193 00:14:54,556 --> 00:14:59,036 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, all that stuff, all that and so many 194 00:14:59,076 --> 00:15:03,636 Speaker 2: of his helf so but there was never any things 195 00:15:03,636 --> 00:15:12,916 Speaker 2: that made those unaccessible in my I loved string Time 196 00:15:14,116 --> 00:15:20,316 Speaker 2: and such film as much as I hated the fact 197 00:15:20,396 --> 00:15:24,516 Speaker 2: that I couldn't go into Bloomberg SIT's with the big 198 00:15:24,596 --> 00:15:29,316 Speaker 2: department store on one hundred and twenty first Street, and 199 00:15:29,516 --> 00:15:33,716 Speaker 2: they were buying a soda or something at the bar. 200 00:15:35,236 --> 00:15:41,996 Speaker 2: You know, my musical and my sensitivity being moved by 201 00:15:42,156 --> 00:15:45,956 Speaker 2: these single's all the frame. Yeah, but I think different, 202 00:15:46,076 --> 00:15:51,476 Speaker 2: not to them, to somebody that might write there, I 203 00:15:51,756 --> 00:15:56,676 Speaker 2: make fall. They don't. They don't like jad. I've heard that. 204 00:15:57,596 --> 00:16:01,796 Speaker 2: I've heard the guy that prayed with Johnny Green, who 205 00:16:01,836 --> 00:16:07,476 Speaker 2: wrote A Body and Soul, I heard him tell me that, oh, well, 206 00:16:07,556 --> 00:16:13,636 Speaker 2: Johnny Green didn't like I jazzed Beopole, we'll playing its music, 207 00:16:14,836 --> 00:16:19,796 Speaker 2: you know, which to me, I wonder if that was 208 00:16:20,076 --> 00:16:25,916 Speaker 2: really true, because when Johnny Green was in college, he 209 00:16:26,116 --> 00:16:30,676 Speaker 2: had a group called the Hot Jazz. I mean, so 210 00:16:30,996 --> 00:16:33,956 Speaker 2: you know a lot of these guys who gave that 211 00:16:34,076 --> 00:16:38,996 Speaker 2: impression of, oh, our music is better than your music, 212 00:16:40,516 --> 00:16:42,636 Speaker 2: you know, that kind of stuff, which might dad have 213 00:16:42,796 --> 00:16:44,596 Speaker 2: really been true. 214 00:16:45,796 --> 00:16:49,276 Speaker 1: And then again, if Johnny Green didn't like you guys 215 00:16:49,916 --> 00:16:56,236 Speaker 1: playing his tunes, oh well, you know, maybe in a 216 00:16:56,276 --> 00:16:58,196 Speaker 1: sense all the better that you guys were doing it. 217 00:16:58,156 --> 00:17:03,076 Speaker 2: Then well I think it did. But whether he liked 218 00:17:03,076 --> 00:17:07,556 Speaker 2: it or not, nobody could play body and so like 219 00:17:07,756 --> 00:17:13,116 Speaker 2: Coleman Alkins, yeah that that was his uh masterpiece. Yeah, 220 00:17:13,796 --> 00:17:18,236 Speaker 2: but it really uh was perfect for jazz, like so 221 00:17:18,396 --> 00:17:23,996 Speaker 2: many of those films are anyway. I like everything that 222 00:17:24,196 --> 00:17:31,956 Speaker 2: makes uh beautiful musical sounds and uh beautiful musical people 223 00:17:32,076 --> 00:17:35,716 Speaker 2: and so it's all the same to me. I never 224 00:17:35,916 --> 00:17:40,316 Speaker 2: had a problem whenever personally to uh some of those 225 00:17:40,476 --> 00:17:46,116 Speaker 2: early movies. Bright the way when Lewis Armstrong did a 226 00:17:46,116 --> 00:17:50,236 Speaker 2: single in the movie. Now, evidently there's a lot of 227 00:17:50,356 --> 00:17:55,636 Speaker 2: people that they don't want that America. They want America 228 00:17:55,756 --> 00:18:01,916 Speaker 2: which is propagated, and that's that's okay. I mean, it's 229 00:18:01,956 --> 00:18:07,236 Speaker 2: not okay with me, but I uh, I had to 230 00:18:07,316 --> 00:18:12,236 Speaker 2: accept what they think because that's the way it has 231 00:18:12,356 --> 00:18:18,956 Speaker 2: turned out. But growing up, I appreciate you that Paul 232 00:18:19,156 --> 00:18:25,516 Speaker 2: Robeston and all that my really idols and I wanted 233 00:18:25,636 --> 00:18:32,396 Speaker 2: to be a red like human being without having to 234 00:18:32,476 --> 00:18:36,316 Speaker 2: be a black human being. It's so in itself for 235 00:18:36,676 --> 00:18:41,076 Speaker 2: so it all made sense to me. It still does. 236 00:18:42,156 --> 00:18:47,116 Speaker 2: I'm muddy enough to realize that there's history to always 237 00:18:47,276 --> 00:18:52,356 Speaker 2: people fighting each other. The stoop is fighting that they're fighting, 238 00:18:52,396 --> 00:18:56,476 Speaker 2: that they're fighting that and we haven't gotten to that 239 00:18:56,676 --> 00:19:01,516 Speaker 2: point yet, or I don't think we may ever get 240 00:19:01,636 --> 00:19:06,356 Speaker 2: to that point in this world, or I've made my 241 00:19:06,516 --> 00:19:10,436 Speaker 2: life for what it did. So I like Horded movies, 242 00:19:10,996 --> 00:19:17,676 Speaker 2: co music, and I love jazz, and uh really nothing 243 00:19:18,796 --> 00:19:21,676 Speaker 2: strange to my bad combination. 244 00:19:21,356 --> 00:19:25,556 Speaker 1: To me, did movies continue throughout your career to be 245 00:19:26,676 --> 00:19:28,356 Speaker 1: a source of inspiration to you? 246 00:19:29,556 --> 00:19:33,556 Speaker 2: Yes, up until the point that I stopped going to movies. 247 00:19:33,636 --> 00:19:39,196 Speaker 2: But yeah, I would say, I mean the American dream 248 00:19:39,916 --> 00:19:45,556 Speaker 2: was always in lil and racist and all of this 249 00:19:45,756 --> 00:19:53,916 Speaker 2: stuff somehow had never stopped me from liking, uh, finding 250 00:19:53,996 --> 00:19:54,796 Speaker 2: more fashion. 251 00:19:59,436 --> 00:20:01,276 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more of a conversation with 252 00:20:01,316 --> 00:20:08,196 Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins after the break. You just said that the 253 00:20:08,596 --> 00:20:11,516 Speaker 1: American dream is always in you. What does that mean 254 00:20:11,556 --> 00:20:11,836 Speaker 1: to you? 255 00:20:13,356 --> 00:20:17,476 Speaker 2: Well, it means that there's a couder and there's a 256 00:20:17,596 --> 00:20:23,436 Speaker 2: natural good, like Duke Kellington settling. They asked Duke Kellington, Well, gee, 257 00:20:23,516 --> 00:20:27,516 Speaker 2: do what he thinks about this kind of music in 258 00:20:27,636 --> 00:20:33,996 Speaker 2: that and Douke was known to say there's only two 259 00:20:34,156 --> 00:20:39,596 Speaker 2: kinds of music, good music and bad music, and that 260 00:20:40,196 --> 00:20:40,916 Speaker 2: told it all. 261 00:20:41,516 --> 00:20:45,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, nothing else on that note. Would you mind if 262 00:20:45,116 --> 00:20:48,756 Speaker 1: I read to you an excerpt of something you wrote 263 00:20:48,796 --> 00:20:52,276 Speaker 1: in your journals from around nineteen fifty nine. 264 00:20:52,556 --> 00:21:01,436 Speaker 2: Okay, surprised me because I haven't read my journals or 265 00:21:02,116 --> 00:21:06,876 Speaker 2: my bigger book, so but go ahead. 266 00:21:06,996 --> 00:21:09,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, great, Well, I'm sorry for this. Sets you 267 00:21:09,596 --> 00:21:13,196 Speaker 1: all let me know, but I think it's really beautiful. 268 00:21:13,516 --> 00:21:18,196 Speaker 1: You say, even if there are more brilliant quote unquote 269 00:21:18,316 --> 00:21:21,956 Speaker 1: jazz in the modern interpretations of the word, more brilliant 270 00:21:22,036 --> 00:21:26,276 Speaker 1: jazz artists and innovators among the quote unquote Negro race, 271 00:21:27,476 --> 00:21:32,836 Speaker 1: this in no way contradicts the quasi racial nature of jazz. 272 00:21:33,596 --> 00:21:37,556 Speaker 1: And mustn't we start speaking of music all caps and 273 00:21:37,636 --> 00:21:41,596 Speaker 1: not jazz? Cannot this be the same principle by which 274 00:21:41,676 --> 00:21:48,116 Speaker 1: people are deluded into divisions, divisions which are treacherously misleading 275 00:21:48,436 --> 00:21:53,396 Speaker 1: by their external manifestations. Who can deny that the greatest 276 00:21:53,396 --> 00:22:00,356 Speaker 1: of any music is of a oneness which transcends period, style, country, 277 00:22:00,836 --> 00:22:04,316 Speaker 1: et cetera. It is the same line of reasoning which 278 00:22:04,316 --> 00:22:09,436 Speaker 1: separates people on the basis of their physical impressions. To 279 00:22:09,516 --> 00:22:12,956 Speaker 1: be absorbed here is that any definition which seeks to 280 00:22:12,996 --> 00:22:16,596 Speaker 1: separate Bach from Miles Davis is defeating its own purpose 281 00:22:16,716 --> 00:22:22,196 Speaker 1: of clarification. Thus we shall now hereafter and henceforth integrate, 282 00:22:22,316 --> 00:22:25,316 Speaker 1: if you will, the word jazz into the word music. 283 00:22:26,316 --> 00:22:29,116 Speaker 1: The musings of Miles is then the bouncing of Bach, 284 00:22:29,276 --> 00:22:31,076 Speaker 1: both played against each other. 285 00:22:32,196 --> 00:22:38,596 Speaker 2: Oh well, okay, but you know, BET's exactly how I feel. 286 00:22:39,036 --> 00:22:41,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems to be a core part of you 287 00:22:41,516 --> 00:22:43,516 Speaker 1: that believe because because just as you said now, you 288 00:22:43,996 --> 00:22:47,156 Speaker 1: wrote back in nineteen fifty nine, and the same in 289 00:22:47,236 --> 00:22:49,796 Speaker 1: the same way, that it's all one, not to be 290 00:22:50,836 --> 00:22:54,756 Speaker 1: discerned by period or style or country or race. 291 00:22:55,876 --> 00:22:58,876 Speaker 2: Oh no, I think so. But Bet may be a 292 00:22:58,916 --> 00:23:04,916 Speaker 2: little bit too, I don't know, heavenly or trum like that. 293 00:23:05,836 --> 00:23:09,596 Speaker 2: I mean, maybe the world is just not meant to 294 00:23:09,676 --> 00:23:13,716 Speaker 2: be like that. Maybe the world is meant to be 295 00:23:13,956 --> 00:23:20,116 Speaker 2: fighting and fighting all the time. But that's okay, that's 296 00:23:20,116 --> 00:23:23,516 Speaker 2: that I didn't make the world. I'm not God. So 297 00:23:24,156 --> 00:23:28,436 Speaker 2: if the world is the world is like this, be 298 00:23:28,556 --> 00:23:36,996 Speaker 2: it must be some reason that I I'm not attuned to. 299 00:23:37,276 --> 00:23:43,516 Speaker 2: I don't know everything, but the world has produced and 300 00:23:43,516 --> 00:23:48,036 Speaker 2: and jazz and the whole thing. If she wanted to 301 00:23:48,076 --> 00:23:54,356 Speaker 2: go further than talk about America, okay, I think that's 302 00:23:54,356 --> 00:24:00,356 Speaker 2: for America too. But evidently America is not all everybody 303 00:24:00,436 --> 00:24:05,916 Speaker 2: that should think like that, Richard. It's sad, but it's 304 00:24:06,156 --> 00:24:10,676 Speaker 2: it's bad like that's I have to disaccept it. And 305 00:24:10,756 --> 00:24:16,596 Speaker 2: I've seen people get along that's wintering. I've got a 306 00:24:16,676 --> 00:24:23,196 Speaker 2: lot of white friends. So that's what I think. For me, 307 00:24:24,036 --> 00:24:30,076 Speaker 2: with the great environment, my life was went playing music 308 00:24:30,236 --> 00:24:34,676 Speaker 2: and trying to get better. It wasn't I could have 309 00:24:34,756 --> 00:24:37,876 Speaker 2: been better, but I always loved it and I still 310 00:24:37,916 --> 00:24:42,596 Speaker 2: love it. Yeah, still love Coleman Hawkins and body and Soul, 311 00:24:43,716 --> 00:24:49,236 Speaker 2: and I still love Jerome Kern. I still love Nat 312 00:24:49,356 --> 00:24:53,916 Speaker 2: King Cold and the Trail Can Cold till. 313 00:24:54,596 --> 00:24:54,996 Speaker 1: Yeah. 314 00:24:55,116 --> 00:24:59,956 Speaker 2: Yeah. It was real base and right. So I mean 315 00:25:01,116 --> 00:25:04,716 Speaker 2: it's all good manterccy. At this point in my life 316 00:25:04,756 --> 00:25:10,876 Speaker 2: when and the last one standing, I want that to 317 00:25:10,956 --> 00:25:16,276 Speaker 2: be my epitheph. I love it all. I love it all. 318 00:25:17,716 --> 00:25:20,556 Speaker 1: You just referenced me the last man's standing as we're speaking. 319 00:25:20,716 --> 00:25:26,836 Speaker 1: You know, Benny Golson just passed away, right, and that 320 00:25:27,116 --> 00:25:30,196 Speaker 1: really does make you the last of that fine day 321 00:25:30,236 --> 00:25:33,836 Speaker 1: and Harlem photo. Yeah, which is astonishing. 322 00:25:34,916 --> 00:25:42,036 Speaker 2: It's trying to change. It's a good word. It is astonishing. 323 00:25:42,076 --> 00:25:44,756 Speaker 1: What came up in you when you when you heard 324 00:25:44,756 --> 00:25:46,556 Speaker 1: Benny Golson had left the planet. 325 00:25:47,516 --> 00:25:52,876 Speaker 2: Well, when it came down to Benny and myself at 326 00:25:52,916 --> 00:25:55,796 Speaker 2: that point, you know, I had thought it for me, 327 00:25:57,156 --> 00:26:02,516 Speaker 2: what isnt what? It didn't mean, It couldn't mean all that, 328 00:26:04,556 --> 00:26:08,676 Speaker 2: and one of us had to go. It's okay. I mean, 329 00:26:08,916 --> 00:26:15,396 Speaker 2: you know, my time is probably quite soon now, I guess. 330 00:26:16,116 --> 00:26:20,636 Speaker 2: But you know, I feel okay about it. I haven't 331 00:26:20,716 --> 00:26:27,236 Speaker 2: done everything I wanted to do, but I guess the 332 00:26:27,356 --> 00:26:32,036 Speaker 2: fact that you're interviewing me here, and so I guess 333 00:26:32,116 --> 00:26:36,516 Speaker 2: I've done some things. I've got some things right. That 334 00:26:36,796 --> 00:26:39,916 Speaker 2: everything right, I've got some things right that I can 335 00:26:39,996 --> 00:26:46,596 Speaker 2: be grateful for. I do have a very strong situal 336 00:26:46,756 --> 00:26:52,596 Speaker 2: connection in my life now, and as you know, I've 337 00:26:52,676 --> 00:26:59,156 Speaker 2: been into Eastern religion for a long time now, so 338 00:26:59,716 --> 00:27:04,956 Speaker 2: you know that makes things really okay. You know, so 339 00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:08,476 Speaker 2: whatever comes paid, it's okay. 340 00:27:09,436 --> 00:27:11,996 Speaker 1: Do you have a daily spiritual practice these days? 341 00:27:13,436 --> 00:27:17,036 Speaker 2: Well, yes, I do, but it's it's not like a 342 00:27:17,316 --> 00:27:22,276 Speaker 2: prayer or something like that. I do say prayers, but 343 00:27:22,476 --> 00:27:27,476 Speaker 2: not a specific prayer. You know. I went to India 344 00:27:27,596 --> 00:27:32,436 Speaker 2: back in the sixties and I got some information there 345 00:27:32,596 --> 00:27:38,076 Speaker 2: from some people that had something to say that interested me. 346 00:27:39,516 --> 00:27:44,516 Speaker 2: I wanted to know about should I be practicing and 347 00:27:45,796 --> 00:27:49,556 Speaker 2: playing and uh, you know with it. In other words, 348 00:27:49,716 --> 00:27:53,396 Speaker 2: wasn't oh okay what my life was at that time? 349 00:27:54,956 --> 00:28:01,276 Speaker 2: And they got assurance that it was okay. I needed 350 00:28:01,356 --> 00:28:06,236 Speaker 2: that assurance. I received it from some beautiful people on 351 00:28:06,396 --> 00:28:14,716 Speaker 2: not over there. So yes, that spirituality he had as off. 352 00:28:14,836 --> 00:28:22,836 Speaker 2: Now I'm so happy that I did begin studying Eastern religion. 353 00:28:23,716 --> 00:28:28,516 Speaker 2: I did that when I followed this guy powered my 354 00:28:28,636 --> 00:28:34,476 Speaker 2: Hunter Yoga Nanda Autobiography of a Yogi, which is a 355 00:28:34,716 --> 00:28:39,436 Speaker 2: very popular book. And I read that book and that 356 00:28:39,756 --> 00:28:45,116 Speaker 2: boy I got to find out about this. And I 357 00:28:45,116 --> 00:28:51,916 Speaker 2: had went to California wanting to meet the power Hunter 358 00:28:52,076 --> 00:28:55,716 Speaker 2: over night. He had just passed over it. But so 359 00:28:57,036 --> 00:29:00,196 Speaker 2: I didn't meet him. But I realized, well, look I'm 360 00:29:00,276 --> 00:29:06,996 Speaker 2: going to India because it's something here. And I got 361 00:29:07,516 --> 00:29:13,276 Speaker 2: a bag and my own and I went to India. 362 00:29:13,596 --> 00:29:19,396 Speaker 2: Wow paid off. So glad I did it and learned something. 363 00:29:19,836 --> 00:29:22,036 Speaker 1: And you passed it to us. You know in your music, 364 00:29:22,116 --> 00:29:27,516 Speaker 1: your music always feels very spiritually elevated, you know, just 365 00:29:27,676 --> 00:29:29,996 Speaker 1: in terms of the biographical details of your life. That's 366 00:29:29,996 --> 00:29:32,796 Speaker 1: something that people are very interested in, and so it's 367 00:29:32,796 --> 00:29:34,516 Speaker 1: something that's a gift that you've given all of us. 368 00:29:34,556 --> 00:29:35,556 Speaker 1: So thank you so much. 369 00:29:36,516 --> 00:29:42,156 Speaker 2: Well, there's so much for saying that I ain't loved. Man, 370 00:29:42,396 --> 00:29:46,716 Speaker 2: I'm not my biggest fan, so I'm not a guy 371 00:29:46,836 --> 00:29:50,756 Speaker 2: that think that, Oh I'm strunning. Wrong, we get out 372 00:29:50,756 --> 00:29:55,516 Speaker 2: of here. I'm not my biggest friend at all. That's 373 00:29:55,996 --> 00:30:00,436 Speaker 2: how we started the conversation about listening to my own 374 00:30:00,516 --> 00:30:04,796 Speaker 2: music and all that. Yeah, but I didn't get it 375 00:30:04,796 --> 00:30:11,916 Speaker 2: at all. But I made an impression, and I think 376 00:30:11,996 --> 00:30:17,596 Speaker 2: I've learned something. I'm glad that some people have appreciated 377 00:30:17,716 --> 00:30:21,396 Speaker 2: some of my work. Yeah, but I'm very happy by 378 00:30:21,476 --> 00:30:27,516 Speaker 2: be but not that I appreciated it, but that I 379 00:30:27,716 --> 00:30:34,236 Speaker 2: enabled them to get it, which validated me. Because you know, 380 00:30:34,356 --> 00:30:37,876 Speaker 2: I'm not my biggest fan. Yeah, if you come to 381 00:30:37,956 --> 00:30:42,836 Speaker 2: my house, you won't find a portrait of me all 382 00:30:42,836 --> 00:30:44,276 Speaker 2: over the walls. 383 00:30:44,796 --> 00:30:49,996 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I get that sense. You do not appear 384 00:30:50,036 --> 00:30:50,956 Speaker 1: to be that person. 385 00:30:51,956 --> 00:30:57,396 Speaker 2: Oh god, okay, I'm try from that kid. 386 00:30:59,236 --> 00:31:02,356 Speaker 1: Last time I spoke, I neglected to ask you about 387 00:31:03,516 --> 00:31:09,796 Speaker 1: Rufus Harley bagpipe player. Right, what are you remembering of him? 388 00:31:09,916 --> 00:31:10,636 Speaker 1: And he's playing. 389 00:31:12,196 --> 00:31:16,956 Speaker 2: I always loved Ruverson playing. When I heard him playing, 390 00:31:18,396 --> 00:31:22,916 Speaker 2: I know he played saxophone before Yeah, he got into 391 00:31:22,996 --> 00:31:27,596 Speaker 2: the backpacks. But anyway, he was a great magician. I 392 00:31:27,716 --> 00:31:32,036 Speaker 2: think I had a great concert in New York, got 393 00:31:32,316 --> 00:31:41,876 Speaker 2: at Town Hall with Dissy Gelesbie, Charlie Mingers, Rulfa Sorry, 394 00:31:42,836 --> 00:31:48,196 Speaker 2: and myself. I forgot so that. That was my wife, 395 00:31:48,476 --> 00:31:55,956 Speaker 2: my their departed wife, Lucil, who convinced all of those 396 00:31:56,036 --> 00:32:00,316 Speaker 2: sep up to make that concert because one of the 397 00:32:00,356 --> 00:32:06,636 Speaker 2: people had dropped out and that was a important concert 398 00:32:08,156 --> 00:32:13,156 Speaker 2: just for my reputation, all that kind of stuff. And 399 00:32:13,356 --> 00:32:17,396 Speaker 2: she got Mingus. She was a good friends with Mngus's 400 00:32:17,876 --> 00:32:24,036 Speaker 2: wife for Shu, and so she got Mingus, which is 401 00:32:24,076 --> 00:32:27,076 Speaker 2: not easy to get Mngus to do something he doesn't 402 00:32:27,076 --> 00:32:33,316 Speaker 2: want to do. And then she got Dizzy come and 403 00:32:33,316 --> 00:32:34,676 Speaker 2: make that show that night. 404 00:32:35,116 --> 00:32:38,316 Speaker 1: And of course you and Dizzy were great friends. Did 405 00:32:38,396 --> 00:32:39,556 Speaker 1: you and Mingus get along? 406 00:32:40,596 --> 00:32:45,436 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean as much as as one would 407 00:32:45,476 --> 00:32:49,556 Speaker 2: get along with Mingus. We had a little trouble in 408 00:32:49,676 --> 00:32:55,156 Speaker 2: the beginning because Mingus didn't know me and I was 409 00:32:55,396 --> 00:32:59,756 Speaker 2: playing in one of the clubs and he was playing 410 00:32:59,836 --> 00:33:04,036 Speaker 2: at And you know, there's something that Max Roach and 411 00:33:04,236 --> 00:33:07,396 Speaker 2: Mingus is to I guess other guys that I didn't 412 00:33:07,396 --> 00:33:11,116 Speaker 2: know because I was a young guy coming on to 413 00:33:11,276 --> 00:33:14,676 Speaker 2: the seat. If there were two people on the bill 414 00:33:16,156 --> 00:33:21,916 Speaker 2: and Mingus would get on the stage, they'd play the 415 00:33:21,956 --> 00:33:25,356 Speaker 2: whole night, the whole night. Max would do that too. 416 00:33:25,476 --> 00:33:30,396 Speaker 2: I've seen Max do that due to guys. So it's 417 00:33:30,556 --> 00:33:35,596 Speaker 2: kind of but you know, you have to accept it. 418 00:33:36,676 --> 00:33:39,756 Speaker 2: I did, but i'd got back at Mingus one time 419 00:33:40,956 --> 00:33:45,756 Speaker 2: at the Village Vanguard, who and Mingus didn't play? And 420 00:33:45,876 --> 00:33:49,436 Speaker 2: Max god and call me up and I said sure, 421 00:33:50,956 --> 00:33:54,436 Speaker 2: and I came up and that sort of whut a 422 00:33:54,436 --> 00:34:00,076 Speaker 2: little ref between Mingus and I. Let's see who was 423 00:34:01,956 --> 00:34:06,636 Speaker 2: this guy? Uh through a baraka? Oh yeah, do you 424 00:34:06,676 --> 00:34:07,276 Speaker 2: know him? 425 00:34:07,596 --> 00:34:10,836 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I'm married yea the critic writer, critic. 426 00:34:11,596 --> 00:34:15,836 Speaker 2: Right, he was in the club, and they all thought 427 00:34:15,876 --> 00:34:21,036 Speaker 2: that I would sort of use surping, you know, Mingus, 428 00:34:21,636 --> 00:34:26,276 Speaker 2: him and everything to play that gig, which would have 429 00:34:26,316 --> 00:34:32,516 Speaker 2: been his gig. But it gave me a change to 430 00:34:32,556 --> 00:34:37,836 Speaker 2: get back at Mingus. And after that, Mingus and I 431 00:34:37,996 --> 00:34:41,236 Speaker 2: became close friends. 432 00:34:42,076 --> 00:34:45,076 Speaker 1: Were you around his drummer, Danny Richmond Munch? I always 433 00:34:45,076 --> 00:34:49,316 Speaker 1: found it interesting that he really never played with many 434 00:34:49,396 --> 00:34:51,356 Speaker 1: other drum I mean, I think I can think of 435 00:34:51,756 --> 00:34:55,196 Speaker 1: Max roachs a bit, but I always thought that was 436 00:34:55,236 --> 00:34:59,876 Speaker 1: such a funny parent great pairing though musically, But no. 437 00:34:59,876 --> 00:35:02,956 Speaker 2: I never got a change to pray with Danny Richmond. 438 00:35:04,156 --> 00:35:11,636 Speaker 2: Danny Richmond was always with Mingers, fevered, and I never 439 00:35:11,796 --> 00:35:18,676 Speaker 2: got a chance to hardly No, Dad Richard, but no, 440 00:35:18,916 --> 00:35:23,996 Speaker 2: unfortunately we never played together. Okay, I'm sure it would 441 00:35:23,996 --> 00:35:28,916 Speaker 2: have been very rockad, but I never did get a 442 00:35:29,076 --> 00:35:29,956 Speaker 2: chance of private. 443 00:35:30,956 --> 00:35:32,676 Speaker 1: Yeah that it would have been interesting to hear you 444 00:35:32,916 --> 00:35:37,756 Speaker 1: past together, for sure. Yeah, unique player, he was, as 445 00:35:37,796 --> 00:35:38,156 Speaker 1: are you. 446 00:35:39,956 --> 00:35:45,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, No, No, I enjoyed his work, but 447 00:35:45,596 --> 00:35:49,156 Speaker 2: I only heard him with Mingers. You know. 448 00:35:49,756 --> 00:35:54,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, you wound up doing a couple of Stevie tunes, 449 00:35:54,596 --> 00:35:58,076 Speaker 1: but you definitely did. Isn't she lovely at a certain point? Right, 450 00:35:59,276 --> 00:36:01,596 Speaker 1: What did you make of the music of Stevie Wonder? 451 00:36:02,236 --> 00:36:06,236 Speaker 2: Well, I think Stevie Wonder is great. I mean, Stevie 452 00:36:06,396 --> 00:36:13,116 Speaker 2: Wonder had that come and touch, if I can put 453 00:36:13,196 --> 00:36:17,556 Speaker 2: it that way. So he certainly was the person that 454 00:36:17,716 --> 00:36:24,236 Speaker 2: appealed to the I want to use another term now, 455 00:36:24,356 --> 00:36:30,596 Speaker 2: which you understand that he appealed to the hip hop generation. 456 00:36:31,876 --> 00:36:40,036 Speaker 2: But he was also a really great, profound musician who 457 00:36:41,556 --> 00:36:47,836 Speaker 2: was there for everybody. He was just extremely talented that 458 00:36:48,156 --> 00:36:54,316 Speaker 2: he had those kind of chops. Yeah, I don't know 459 00:36:54,396 --> 00:36:56,956 Speaker 2: anything I was going one day. Gear. I wouldn't have 460 00:36:57,756 --> 00:37:02,436 Speaker 2: he ever played with Miles. 461 00:37:03,076 --> 00:37:04,956 Speaker 1: That's a good question. I'm not sure. 462 00:37:05,036 --> 00:37:08,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think so. And what they would think 463 00:37:08,916 --> 00:37:13,516 Speaker 2: of each other, that would be what I would would wonder. 464 00:37:13,556 --> 00:37:16,316 Speaker 2: Would they appreciate each other? 465 00:37:18,716 --> 00:37:22,916 Speaker 1: You know, there was now that you mentioned it isn't 466 00:37:22,956 --> 00:37:28,556 Speaker 1: going to say about Stevie wasn't so nice, but yeah, 467 00:37:28,596 --> 00:37:32,476 Speaker 1: he said, Stevie wondered, Now, now there's a sad motherfucker. 468 00:37:32,636 --> 00:37:36,876 Speaker 1: He thinks I stole Michael Henderson from him, which I 469 00:37:36,916 --> 00:37:41,716 Speaker 1: guess was just a player, you know, was a player, No, my. 470 00:37:43,676 --> 00:37:47,036 Speaker 2: Complete character from age to say. 471 00:37:47,916 --> 00:37:52,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, When I was reading through your Saxophone Colossus 472 00:37:53,396 --> 00:37:57,676 Speaker 1: biography and it got to the section where you played 473 00:37:57,716 --> 00:38:00,396 Speaker 1: a few songs on the Rolling Stones album, and that 474 00:38:00,516 --> 00:38:03,796 Speaker 1: chapter sort of talked a bit about how that happened 475 00:38:03,836 --> 00:38:06,396 Speaker 1: and sort of your thoughts about it and the thoughts 476 00:38:06,436 --> 00:38:12,756 Speaker 1: of others about it. And the response is interesting because 477 00:38:12,756 --> 00:38:17,276 Speaker 1: I think some people really enjoy that work. Other people 478 00:38:18,556 --> 00:38:23,116 Speaker 1: may be viewed it as an inauthentic move. I was 479 00:38:23,156 --> 00:38:29,436 Speaker 1: just wondering the idea of authenticity in jazz music through 480 00:38:29,476 --> 00:38:32,676 Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies and eighties. Was that something that 481 00:38:32,756 --> 00:38:34,476 Speaker 1: you spent a lot of time thinking about. 482 00:38:35,396 --> 00:38:42,676 Speaker 2: Well, I did, and actually my wife convinced me to 483 00:38:42,876 --> 00:38:48,716 Speaker 2: make that album. They finally had a way that that 484 00:38:49,316 --> 00:38:56,076 Speaker 2: jazz musicians from the States could play in England. They 485 00:38:56,156 --> 00:39:01,676 Speaker 2: had a band for some unions all right. Anyway, finally 486 00:39:02,476 --> 00:39:09,116 Speaker 2: they began playing and using British traditions, playing with people 487 00:39:09,436 --> 00:39:15,196 Speaker 2: getting up, following over there and everything like that. Somehow 488 00:39:15,236 --> 00:39:19,596 Speaker 2: I found out that men Jagon wanted me to play 489 00:39:20,516 --> 00:39:27,796 Speaker 2: in one of their records. So my reaction was that 490 00:39:29,476 --> 00:39:33,476 Speaker 2: I thought that that would be a come down for 491 00:39:33,516 --> 00:39:39,196 Speaker 2: me to do that, and I really had to argue 492 00:39:39,556 --> 00:39:45,156 Speaker 2: with my wife about that, so she convinced me to 493 00:39:45,196 --> 00:39:49,516 Speaker 2: do it. But to me, it was a come down 494 00:39:50,396 --> 00:39:51,076 Speaker 2: to do that. 495 00:39:51,756 --> 00:39:55,916 Speaker 1: Is that because it felt inauthentic to you or for 496 00:39:55,956 --> 00:39:58,196 Speaker 1: some other reason. 497 00:39:58,756 --> 00:40:04,556 Speaker 2: Well, it didn't. Jeet was of a higher level than 498 00:40:05,356 --> 00:40:11,036 Speaker 2: the blues that they were playing. Yeah, that's all. I mean, 499 00:40:11,076 --> 00:40:13,356 Speaker 2: there wasn't anything except that. 500 00:40:14,196 --> 00:40:16,836 Speaker 3: Now, I mean, come on, you, what do you want 501 00:40:17,396 --> 00:40:21,236 Speaker 3: you want to hit Charlie Parker or would you want 502 00:40:21,276 --> 00:40:25,556 Speaker 3: to hear uh into those guys understand. 503 00:40:25,756 --> 00:40:29,676 Speaker 2: Yes, so that's the way I was putting out completely. 504 00:40:30,196 --> 00:40:34,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, but then the the Beatles and Stevie Wonder as 505 00:40:34,836 --> 00:40:39,676 Speaker 1: popular musicians felt much more on a similar plane, at 506 00:40:39,756 --> 00:40:40,756 Speaker 1: least to you. 507 00:40:41,556 --> 00:40:45,636 Speaker 2: Yes, and in the terms of uh, the Beatles that 508 00:40:45,916 --> 00:40:56,276 Speaker 2: have a more rounded repertoire and sewing than the Romans showings. Yeah, okay, 509 00:40:56,756 --> 00:41:01,796 Speaker 2: the Roman Stones did ask me to do the tour 510 00:41:03,036 --> 00:41:06,916 Speaker 2: of that record that they had put out that I 511 00:41:06,956 --> 00:41:09,316 Speaker 2: would throwing tattoo. 512 00:41:10,036 --> 00:41:13,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. After this last break, we'll be back 513 00:41:13,836 --> 00:41:21,076 Speaker 1: with the rest of my conversation with Sonny Robins. Would 514 00:41:21,116 --> 00:41:25,316 Speaker 1: you say, in a sense the different classes of saxophone 515 00:41:25,316 --> 00:41:29,236 Speaker 1: players from alto soprano, alto tenor baritone, I mean, were 516 00:41:29,276 --> 00:41:32,596 Speaker 1: those almost like weight classes in boxing in a sense. 517 00:41:33,996 --> 00:41:43,076 Speaker 2: Well, tenor saxophone took the prime feet because at one 518 00:41:43,116 --> 00:41:47,676 Speaker 2: time we had some beautiful Of course, we had the 519 00:41:47,876 --> 00:41:56,516 Speaker 2: great Charlie Parker, the Beaba Up Originator, and that really 520 00:41:56,676 --> 00:42:00,836 Speaker 2: shook everything up for a while. But then came the 521 00:42:01,036 --> 00:42:10,636 Speaker 2: tender Place, whole Train, Pitture, Gordon and what l Gray, 522 00:42:11,436 --> 00:42:17,316 Speaker 2: all these people, this guy's Funny Rowins, all these guys 523 00:42:17,556 --> 00:42:21,876 Speaker 2: so the Tender became the folkrom. 524 00:42:21,876 --> 00:42:26,476 Speaker 1: I would say, it's almost as if because Charlie Parker 525 00:42:26,556 --> 00:42:32,596 Speaker 1: on Alto was just so groundbreaking and just so revered 526 00:42:32,916 --> 00:42:35,956 Speaker 1: that it almost in hindsight appears that everyone just kind 527 00:42:35,956 --> 00:42:38,956 Speaker 1: of took a different path after this, like maybe we 528 00:42:38,956 --> 00:42:41,636 Speaker 1: need to steer clear of the Alto And could that 529 00:42:41,716 --> 00:42:44,556 Speaker 1: have been what sort of made so many great players 530 00:42:44,596 --> 00:42:46,236 Speaker 1: coalesce around tenor. 531 00:42:47,356 --> 00:42:54,636 Speaker 2: We also had the great Coleman Hawkins, a great Lester Young, 532 00:42:56,436 --> 00:43:01,476 Speaker 2: the great Ben Webster. Yeah, they're great, Showberry. These are 533 00:43:01,556 --> 00:43:08,196 Speaker 2: some great, great players. Now this led Charlie Parker have 534 00:43:08,356 --> 00:43:12,836 Speaker 2: it because Charlie Parker did what he did, which was 535 00:43:12,996 --> 00:43:19,116 Speaker 2: beyond instrumentation, So he was always Charlie Parker or Altough, 536 00:43:19,316 --> 00:43:28,156 Speaker 2: but Tender began to take pretty dominant position. We all 537 00:43:28,236 --> 00:43:31,876 Speaker 2: know we couldn't beat Charlie Parker, but we could be 538 00:43:33,316 --> 00:43:40,036 Speaker 2: less to Young h the great, great great rest to Young. Yeah, 539 00:43:40,116 --> 00:43:44,916 Speaker 2: so they each had their own place out though. Of 540 00:43:44,956 --> 00:43:50,156 Speaker 2: course we had Johnny Hodges, the great great auto player 541 00:43:50,196 --> 00:43:58,116 Speaker 2: from Duke Elgin's cooop, and we had Benny Carter, another 542 00:43:58,356 --> 00:44:03,636 Speaker 2: great great Alto player. If you played altough great like 543 00:44:03,796 --> 00:44:09,476 Speaker 2: these guys said, well, you would set nobody is going 544 00:44:09,556 --> 00:44:13,556 Speaker 2: to mess with Benny Carter. They could admit and my 545 00:44:13,916 --> 00:44:20,836 Speaker 2: him admit that he was first christ right. And when 546 00:44:20,876 --> 00:44:23,876 Speaker 2: it came to ten and wall I February had a 547 00:44:23,916 --> 00:44:31,156 Speaker 2: lot of feeble. My favorite the great Coleman Hawkins, but 548 00:44:31,436 --> 00:44:36,996 Speaker 2: also my other favorite was the great Less to Him, 549 00:44:37,556 --> 00:44:44,356 Speaker 2: both extremely different than this style for fill so so great. 550 00:44:46,036 --> 00:44:49,036 Speaker 1: I just had a point of clarification. I read one place, 551 00:44:49,036 --> 00:44:50,996 Speaker 1: but I haven't been able to find it anywhere else 552 00:44:51,316 --> 00:44:55,876 Speaker 1: that you did play in Lionelhampton's band in the early fifties. 553 00:44:56,716 --> 00:45:00,116 Speaker 1: Did you ever play in Hampton's band when Quincy Jones 554 00:45:00,156 --> 00:45:03,236 Speaker 1: was in the band? No, no, okay. 555 00:45:04,196 --> 00:45:07,996 Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot of big band experience because 556 00:45:08,276 --> 00:45:14,556 Speaker 2: just as I getting to be extremely famous, I started 557 00:45:14,916 --> 00:45:21,316 Speaker 2: playing with Small Ghost and so the big brands. In 558 00:45:21,316 --> 00:45:28,036 Speaker 2: a way, I am missed opportunity, but time just brought 559 00:45:28,116 --> 00:45:31,076 Speaker 2: me to be the one I never pardon with these guys. 560 00:45:31,836 --> 00:45:34,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, what did you make of Quincy Jones? Because he's 561 00:45:34,596 --> 00:45:37,116 Speaker 1: someone who started in jazz and it never seemed to 562 00:45:37,236 --> 00:45:40,396 Speaker 1: leave him. It seemed like he always had a deep 563 00:45:40,436 --> 00:45:43,436 Speaker 1: love of jazz throughout his life, but would often go 564 00:45:43,556 --> 00:45:46,116 Speaker 1: out into other areas of music. 565 00:45:46,956 --> 00:45:55,236 Speaker 2: Well, Quincy had a very wide relationship for jazz. I 566 00:45:55,316 --> 00:46:00,956 Speaker 2: remember when I first met Clint. We was playing in 567 00:46:00,956 --> 00:46:05,396 Speaker 2: Philadelphia and we were trying to get the last tray 568 00:46:05,636 --> 00:46:12,836 Speaker 2: coming to New York and get that last strain after 569 00:46:12,996 --> 00:46:18,316 Speaker 2: the last show his Philadelphia. Wow. Well boy, then you 570 00:46:18,476 --> 00:46:22,236 Speaker 2: rushed down to the station and to get that chrain. 571 00:46:22,396 --> 00:46:26,316 Speaker 2: Sometimes you caught it, sometimes you didn't. I remember with 572 00:46:26,596 --> 00:46:31,996 Speaker 2: Quincher he didn't catch it one night, a real uh 573 00:46:32,236 --> 00:46:37,076 Speaker 2: pain in the neck productive at the strain belly, Oh 574 00:46:37,156 --> 00:46:42,036 Speaker 2: at night. Good boy. He had a lot of composition 575 00:46:42,316 --> 00:46:46,396 Speaker 2: and winch He definitely made an impression. 576 00:46:47,676 --> 00:46:49,516 Speaker 1: It seemed at first he really did want to be 577 00:46:49,556 --> 00:46:53,236 Speaker 1: an ace trumpet player, but at some point realized, well 578 00:46:53,276 --> 00:46:55,556 Speaker 1: I have all these other things that I like and 579 00:46:55,596 --> 00:47:00,236 Speaker 1: can do composing and arranging. And he did manage to 580 00:47:00,836 --> 00:47:03,036 Speaker 1: find his place, you know, even if it wasn't the 581 00:47:03,076 --> 00:47:05,076 Speaker 1: initial thing he set out for. 582 00:47:05,796 --> 00:47:09,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that he wouldn't be filled that player. 583 00:47:10,636 --> 00:47:17,156 Speaker 2: I'm not certain, but she was. When I first got 584 00:47:17,196 --> 00:47:22,996 Speaker 2: involved with the Quince, he was playing trumpet in Diysy 585 00:47:23,076 --> 00:47:27,716 Speaker 2: Chalstree's orchestra. No I've never heard of him played trump 586 00:47:27,796 --> 00:47:31,796 Speaker 2: and half the best. I guess he began composer and 587 00:47:32,476 --> 00:47:33,756 Speaker 2: pay that took over. 588 00:47:34,516 --> 00:47:38,196 Speaker 1: Yeah. 589 00:47:38,276 --> 00:47:43,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a terrific a musician to listen musician. 590 00:47:43,756 --> 00:47:46,356 Speaker 1: Did you guys keep in touch over the years. 591 00:47:46,356 --> 00:47:51,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, meet Quincey a lot of times at the White 592 00:47:51,796 --> 00:47:57,796 Speaker 2: House and places like that when he both be selected 593 00:47:57,876 --> 00:48:01,756 Speaker 2: at being extraordinary musician. 594 00:48:02,036 --> 00:48:04,876 Speaker 1: So yeah, you guys received the Presidential Medal of Freedom 595 00:48:04,916 --> 00:48:06,076 Speaker 1: from Barack Obama. 596 00:48:06,996 --> 00:48:12,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, and Quincey was probably the day. Yeah, I uh 597 00:48:13,556 --> 00:48:17,236 Speaker 2: remember one time I stay at the Fourth Seasons in 598 00:48:17,396 --> 00:48:22,596 Speaker 2: New York and he came Quincy. This was the time 599 00:48:22,676 --> 00:48:27,876 Speaker 2: of nine and eleven. Quincy came in with some other 600 00:48:28,116 --> 00:48:34,796 Speaker 2: people and the head on this in head the workers June. 601 00:48:35,076 --> 00:48:38,636 Speaker 2: So I gets through the writing something that had to 602 00:48:38,716 --> 00:48:43,276 Speaker 2: do with ninety eleven or something. But he wrote some 603 00:48:43,476 --> 00:48:50,916 Speaker 2: kind of music, probably commemorate. Yes, had a terrible incident 604 00:48:51,036 --> 00:48:51,996 Speaker 2: that happened to it. 605 00:48:52,596 --> 00:48:54,996 Speaker 1: Now, what about lou Donaldson? 606 00:48:55,116 --> 00:49:02,036 Speaker 2: Did you cross past Lord Donaldson? Lord Donaldson was one 607 00:49:02,076 --> 00:49:08,836 Speaker 2: of my best saxophone this He was just a wonderful 608 00:49:10,476 --> 00:49:14,236 Speaker 2: a person, you know, as well as great The months 609 00:49:14,236 --> 00:49:19,276 Speaker 2: of days i't talking about had great, great talent, but 610 00:49:19,476 --> 00:49:25,116 Speaker 2: they were all twelve wonderful people that thought so great 611 00:49:25,156 --> 00:49:30,876 Speaker 2: about Chads. All of these guys were wonderful people. Loud Donaldson, 612 00:49:32,076 --> 00:49:37,196 Speaker 2: I wrote something I loved thing after he passed because 613 00:49:37,756 --> 00:49:41,316 Speaker 2: I felt so close to low But I never got 614 00:49:41,316 --> 00:49:45,636 Speaker 2: a change to see him in later years. But I 615 00:49:45,836 --> 00:49:50,156 Speaker 2: felt so close to because they were good friends in 616 00:49:50,276 --> 00:49:55,156 Speaker 2: the early years when he first came on the scene. 617 00:49:55,476 --> 00:50:00,836 Speaker 2: And uh, we knew each other the way back when 618 00:50:00,876 --> 00:50:04,716 Speaker 2: we used to follow a New York child had the 619 00:50:04,796 --> 00:50:12,356 Speaker 2: polo ground to New York. Wow, privilege drive into known, 620 00:50:13,476 --> 00:50:20,876 Speaker 2: Lord donalds mm hmm. While we're here, you better try 621 00:50:20,916 --> 00:50:28,436 Speaker 2: to be ready to be judged by something some way, 622 00:50:28,596 --> 00:50:32,436 Speaker 2: who knows where. But you let me judge. You met 623 00:50:32,516 --> 00:50:37,676 Speaker 2: me a good guy. I've seen guys that were not 624 00:50:37,916 --> 00:50:45,716 Speaker 2: so good, and I've seen some good guys anyway, Lord 625 00:50:45,796 --> 00:50:49,076 Speaker 2: Donald's ape us. Yeah. 626 00:50:50,196 --> 00:50:53,396 Speaker 1: After Quincy passed away, there was a quote circulating where 627 00:50:53,396 --> 00:50:56,116 Speaker 1: he said that early on he learned that your music 628 00:50:56,156 --> 00:50:57,836 Speaker 1: can ever be more or less than who you are 629 00:50:57,876 --> 00:51:02,836 Speaker 1: as a human being. And your comment that so many 630 00:51:02,876 --> 00:51:06,916 Speaker 1: of these jazz guys and guys were beautiful human beings, 631 00:51:06,956 --> 00:51:10,716 Speaker 1: I mean, the reason that I feel it seems it 632 00:51:10,796 --> 00:51:12,556 Speaker 1: must be the reason it's been able to last as 633 00:51:12,596 --> 00:51:15,276 Speaker 1: long as it has is because of the spirit that's 634 00:51:15,316 --> 00:51:19,596 Speaker 1: imbued in it from it's practitioners. It's really you guys 635 00:51:19,596 --> 00:51:23,916 Speaker 1: are really trying to relate to the human condition as 636 00:51:23,956 --> 00:51:26,676 Speaker 1: closely as you possibly could, you know, And it feels 637 00:51:26,676 --> 00:51:27,276 Speaker 1: that way still. 638 00:51:27,796 --> 00:51:31,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know how it happened, but I mean, 639 00:51:32,076 --> 00:51:35,676 Speaker 2: I guess that's how it happened. We were so close 640 00:51:36,716 --> 00:51:42,516 Speaker 2: to the human condition through music is pretty great thing. 641 00:51:43,956 --> 00:51:47,716 Speaker 2: All of the guys I know who had a well 642 00:51:47,796 --> 00:51:54,876 Speaker 2: known musician were very nice people, very nice people. But 643 00:51:55,076 --> 00:51:59,316 Speaker 2: wasn't all of this stuff for gree Suddenly now you're 644 00:51:59,436 --> 00:52:04,636 Speaker 2: competing with this guy or in all this that was 645 00:52:04,796 --> 00:52:10,676 Speaker 2: not on. Once we played together, they realize, Man, this 646 00:52:10,916 --> 00:52:17,236 Speaker 2: guy must have really studied. He had a great natural 647 00:52:17,356 --> 00:52:22,716 Speaker 2: ability that only God give us. And yet there were 648 00:52:22,836 --> 00:52:28,196 Speaker 2: beautiful people. I wish there was something else besides that. 649 00:52:28,396 --> 00:52:33,276 Speaker 2: There's hull of fame to under these people from what 650 00:52:33,476 --> 00:52:36,476 Speaker 2: they are, from what they had to go through. They 651 00:52:36,556 --> 00:52:44,476 Speaker 2: were accepted in America. It took a while before everybody realized, wow, 652 00:52:45,236 --> 00:52:50,396 Speaker 2: we get that artistry. And now you know who was there. 653 00:52:51,996 --> 00:52:59,036 Speaker 2: Lou Donaldson's on Oh man, well it's stunistain. You know, 654 00:52:59,076 --> 00:53:03,956 Speaker 2: it's life. I don't control life. I just try to 655 00:53:04,036 --> 00:53:05,396 Speaker 2: live it right. 656 00:53:05,436 --> 00:53:07,516 Speaker 1: Well, we don't control we just experienced it. But it 657 00:53:07,516 --> 00:53:09,516 Speaker 1: does feel you know. Yeah, I mean since we spoke, 658 00:53:09,636 --> 00:53:12,596 Speaker 1: we lost those people and and and and also including 659 00:53:12,796 --> 00:53:13,436 Speaker 1: Roy Haynes. 660 00:53:13,636 --> 00:53:18,636 Speaker 2: You know Roy Haynes, the guy that I never thought 661 00:53:20,036 --> 00:53:24,596 Speaker 2: would not be here. Yeah, well at least I thought 662 00:53:25,276 --> 00:53:27,796 Speaker 2: tithing out of Hanley, for he would. 663 00:53:29,916 --> 00:53:35,676 Speaker 4: It's all they played with different order, first chairs honors 664 00:53:35,916 --> 00:53:41,036 Speaker 4: and uh he handswered the wonderful person out and and 665 00:53:41,316 --> 00:53:43,436 Speaker 4: uh through the great honor. 666 00:53:44,716 --> 00:53:49,356 Speaker 2: No. Roy had to play with them on many occasions, 667 00:53:49,676 --> 00:53:55,516 Speaker 2: the uh great much of my music that I played, 668 00:53:55,716 --> 00:54:00,196 Speaker 2: I remember I did some nation of things and Roy 669 00:54:00,396 --> 00:54:05,196 Speaker 2: was there right on it and then help. I want 670 00:54:05,236 --> 00:54:11,236 Speaker 2: to thank Roy. Yes in faith I've been doing before, 671 00:54:12,716 --> 00:54:16,316 Speaker 2: I wouldn't do it now, man, thanks joys to being 672 00:54:17,116 --> 00:54:22,076 Speaker 2: being a great guy. Life is really I had to 673 00:54:22,236 --> 00:54:25,836 Speaker 2: go one dementia. We don't know much about it. 674 00:54:27,276 --> 00:54:29,076 Speaker 1: Do you feel as time goes on you get more 675 00:54:29,116 --> 00:54:30,276 Speaker 1: comfortable with it not knowing? 676 00:54:31,356 --> 00:54:38,436 Speaker 2: Oh? Yes I do. I do. Because I tried to 677 00:54:38,476 --> 00:54:44,156 Speaker 2: get more like a spiritual understanding of life. I have 678 00:54:44,356 --> 00:54:51,756 Speaker 2: learned a lot and it's comforted me through my uh 679 00:54:52,476 --> 00:54:57,516 Speaker 2: period of light. I'm just sorry I couldn't hang I 680 00:54:57,676 --> 00:55:02,676 Speaker 2: was telling my friends. But by being a musician, I've 681 00:55:02,716 --> 00:55:07,356 Speaker 2: reached a lot of people which I couldn't reach other 682 00:55:08,316 --> 00:55:12,956 Speaker 2: other than the your music. Yeah, and they hearing my music. 683 00:55:13,156 --> 00:55:21,876 Speaker 2: So I'm grateful, absolutely grateful, And whatever it is I'll 684 00:55:21,876 --> 00:55:28,316 Speaker 2: say soon I can send there for whole good. Whatever 685 00:55:28,596 --> 00:55:33,396 Speaker 2: happened to me in my life, with what has happened 686 00:55:33,436 --> 00:55:37,596 Speaker 2: to me and what's going to happen to me, it's 687 00:55:37,916 --> 00:55:45,556 Speaker 2: all good. Boy, have I have I been but enormous by. 688 00:55:46,636 --> 00:55:49,316 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much. I mean again, I would, 689 00:55:49,396 --> 00:55:51,716 Speaker 1: you know, love to give you a ring another time 690 00:55:51,756 --> 00:55:53,836 Speaker 1: and maybe were gonna have another conversation. He's a really 691 00:55:53,956 --> 00:55:55,796 Speaker 1: enlightening so thank you so much. 692 00:55:56,756 --> 00:56:01,356 Speaker 2: Well, remember though I'm one of the last guys standing, well, 693 00:56:01,756 --> 00:56:05,396 Speaker 2: I am the last guy say so. It's a cop, 694 00:56:06,796 --> 00:56:08,916 Speaker 2: you know. Don't wait too long. 695 00:56:10,756 --> 00:56:12,516 Speaker 1: All right, Thank you so much, sir. 696 00:56:13,116 --> 00:56:16,156 Speaker 2: Okay man, God bless, I'll talk to you later. 697 00:56:18,996 --> 00:56:20,636 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for Sunny Rollins, for getting on the 698 00:56:20,636 --> 00:56:22,476 Speaker 1: phone with me and reflecting back about some of his 699 00:56:22,556 --> 00:56:25,876 Speaker 1: colleagues and about his life and art. I'm so grateful 700 00:56:25,916 --> 00:56:28,076 Speaker 1: that we still have him here at the age of 701 00:56:28,196 --> 00:56:31,356 Speaker 1: ninety four. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at 702 00:56:31,396 --> 00:56:34,276 Speaker 1: the Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter 703 00:56:34,396 --> 00:56:37,996 Speaker 1: at broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by 704 00:56:38,076 --> 00:56:41,516 Speaker 1: Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. 705 00:56:41,796 --> 00:56:45,516 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Ben Tolladay. Broken Record is a production 706 00:56:45,636 --> 00:56:48,996 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others 707 00:56:49,076 --> 00:56:53,476 Speaker 1: from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is 708 00:56:53,516 --> 00:56:56,996 Speaker 1: a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and athlete listening 709 00:56:57,076 --> 00:57:00,436 Speaker 1: for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus 710 00:57:00,476 --> 00:57:04,076 Speaker 1: on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you like this show, 711 00:57:04,196 --> 00:57:06,716 Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate, and review us on your 712 00:57:06,716 --> 00:57:10,556 Speaker 1: podcast aff Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.