1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: Based in record recording, test test test test print all 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: of this christ topic. We've already introduced the show. It 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: started behind the bastards. We have we we we we 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: we have a dark one today. We have a bad 5 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: one today. I'm Robert Evans, Matt Leeb my guest, Matt. 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: How are you doing today? You know I was doing 7 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: well until you guys started talking real ominous about what 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: the subject. Boy, Matt, you are going to be a 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: very unhappy person. Oh fun, I love Yeah, as we 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: as we get into this three hours, Yeah, that's about right, Matt. 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: So let me let me start this with a simple, 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: humble question, Matt, a very simple question. How do you 13 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: feel about the Boy Scouts of America? Oh? Fuck, I 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: have very like I don't have feelings one way or 15 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: the other because I never I never did it. I 16 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: know you weren't. Yeah, I know people who did, like, 17 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 1: uh you know they there was like a jew Scouts, um, 18 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: but they were that's a funny name for something to be. Yeah, yeah, 19 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 1: but I and I knew some people were like Cub 20 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: Scouts and Eagle Scouts and stuff like that, but I never, 21 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: I never was in that club. So I feel excluded 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: That's how I feel about it. You know, as a kid, 23 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: I wanted to be a part of it. Why couldn't you, Um, 24 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: I think, because like you know, you have to like 25 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: apply and stuff, and then you know, you know, you 26 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: gotta like tell your dad and he's got to not 27 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: be he's got to be in a good mood and 28 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, I mean yeah, so you know, I 29 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: never I never got a chance to do it. So 30 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: it's weird. I mean, so this is gonna be a 31 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: weird one for me because like I was in the 32 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: Boy Scouts for years and years and years and I 33 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: loved it. I had a really good time. I learned 34 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: where I learned a lot of like the first lessons 35 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: I learned about like woodcraft and like hiking, and I 36 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: had a lot of relief when I'm like a twenty 37 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: mile river rafting trip on the Brasos for days and 38 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, uh, like primitive kind of like 39 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: you have like the contents of a matchbox and a 40 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: pocket knife and I have to go for two days 41 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: or whatever like some really cool shit. UM had some 42 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: great experiences, like I really to be like I personally 43 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: have nothing but positive memories of the Boy Scouts of 44 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: America and my time in them. End of podcast for listening. 45 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: So it's it's it's fucked up, Like I played like 46 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: my very first games of Dungeons and Dragons, I played 47 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: it like Cub Scouts Campouts, which is like a huge 48 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: part of my my life, and like, yeah, it's it's 49 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: it's weird. Um, I can confidently say my life would 50 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: have been very different if I had not been a 51 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: Boy Scout, and I can also confidently say that that 52 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: is true of a hundred thousands or so other boys 53 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: for a much worse reason. Um, because as we're going 54 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: to discuss the Boy Scouts of America, despite you know, 55 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: my and I'm sure a number of people listening can 56 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 1: think back to positive experiences they had in the b 57 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,679 Speaker 1: s A. I know my dad can, Um, he was 58 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: an Eagle Scout, like I know a lot of people 59 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 1: who could who felt very fondly about their time in 60 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: the Scouts. But despite all of that, the Boy Scouts 61 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: from the beginning is an organization that was poisoned in 62 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: a fundamentally inescapable way, and that poison led to its 63 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: evolution into an organization that facilitated the rape and molestation 64 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: of like a city's worth of young boys. Um, it's 65 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: it's this is a dark one, my man, this is 66 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: a dark one. Yeah. God, I love going in cold, 67 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: you know, probably really regretting that email you Sami. I 68 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: would love to come back up. Yeah, I'll be back 69 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: any motherfucker you want to come on our show? Were 70 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: gonna talking about nazis A yeah, yeah baby, Oh yeah, no, 71 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: I'm excited. Man, it sounds like a lot of fun. Um, 72 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: you know, it sounds like Boy Scouts you know, uh 73 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: are gonna be a great organization to learn more about. 74 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: So let's strap in. Yeah. Well I might not want 75 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: to say that, give him what comes in part two, 76 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: but yeah, let's let's see the episode. Um spoilers. So, 77 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: do you know anything about the founder of the Boy Scouts, 78 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: at least the guy most often credited as founding the 79 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: Boy Scouts, Robert Maiden Powell. I did not know him. Okay, 80 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,119 Speaker 1: Well that part one we're largely going to be talking 81 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 1: about the founder of the Boy Scouts, and then part 82 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: two we're gonna be talking about all of the rapes 83 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,679 Speaker 1: and how the organization facilitated them over a century. Um, 84 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 1: but let's talk about Robert first. The other Robert so 85 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: Robert Baden Powell. His full name at the end of 86 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: his life gives you a pretty clear idea of the 87 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: kind of social position this guy enjoyed. Uh. When he died, 88 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: his full title was Lieutenant General Robert Stevenson smythe Baden Powell, 89 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: first Baron Baden Powell, oh M G C MG G 90 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: C V O K C b K S T J 91 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: d L, which are all like different orders and awards 92 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: and like nightly ship that you. He was. He was 93 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: English as fuck. That could not be more Enguish than 94 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: this motherfucker the whole alphabet. Yeah, he's he had all 95 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: these scot damn titles. Um. Yeah. And he was born high, 96 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: like he was born to rule, be one of the 97 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: people who helped run the British Empire, like that was 98 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: his Yeah. He was born on February eighteen fifty seven 99 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: in Paddington, London, inguland his father was the Reverend Professor 100 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: Baden Powell, and was a pro motherfucking reverend professor. The 101 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: line of people who were like, we must have multiple 102 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: titles like these. Everyone in his family has has a 103 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: thousand fucking titles and they're all very fancy people. So 104 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: his dad, the Reverend Professor, is a geometry professor at 105 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: Oxford University and a priest at the Church of England's. 106 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: Yeah you know those geometry priests. You know, it's like 107 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: you get one degree and then you're like, I'm gonna 108 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: just throw on a little yeah, little but another hat 109 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: from my hat. Yeah. Yeah. So his mother was Henrietta 110 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: Grace Smith and she was the oldest daughter of Admiral 111 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,799 Speaker 1: William Henry Smythe Um, I don't who was a famous admiral, 112 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: you know, like and that's like the biggest thing you 113 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: can be in the British Empires, a admiral, Like that's 114 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: like the top of of cool British ship to be 115 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: in this period. And yeah, well people said it was 116 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: a good one. Yeah. So Reverend Professor Baden Powell UM 117 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: was an old man when he married Henrietta Grace Smithe 118 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 1: she was his third wife, and he was again not 119 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: a young man when he had Robert. And in fact, 120 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: Robert's born in eighteen fifty seven and his dad dies 121 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixties, so our Baden Powell never really knows 122 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: his father um. And this brings to an interesting note. 123 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: So Professor Robert Baden Powell, the founder of the Boy Scout. 124 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: His name is Baden hyphen Powell. Right, his dad's first 125 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: name is Baden, and his dad's last name is Powe. 126 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: His mom's his name is Smithe So why does he 127 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: Why is his last name Baiden hyphen Powell. That's an 128 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: interesting question. So when he died, when his dad died, 129 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: his mom changed the family last name after his death 130 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: to be their father's full name with a hyphen in it, 131 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: in order to distinguish the children she had had with 132 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: him to the kids he'd had in previous marriages. So 133 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: petty ship, Yeah, it's like petty weird English bullshit. Um 134 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: so yeah, like Baiden Pale. You would think with the 135 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: name like Biden pal Oh, his dad was a Baiden 136 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: and his mom was a Powell, and they just did 137 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: the thing that you know, fancy people do when they 138 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: hyphen ate their names. But no, it's much dumber than that. 139 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: So Robert was raised by his mother. She was a 140 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: forceful person and he later recalled that quote the whole 141 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: secret of my getting on was in his mother's very 142 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,679 Speaker 1: powerful personality. She was described by one writer as either 143 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: a great motivator or simply overbearing, depending on who was 144 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: talking about her. Since the family had money and the 145 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: upper crust British kids inevitably went way to private schools 146 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: while they were public schools. But we call them private 147 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: schools like a public school in England is like a 148 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: fancy private school. You know. Oh I didn't know that. Yeah, 149 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: it's weird. Everything's wrong over there, right, yeah yeah. Um, 150 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: and Robert spent his youth in a series of fancy 151 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: all boys schools. He was very intelligent and was given 152 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: to throwing himself completely into any task set before him. 153 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: He particularly pushed himself to succeed at tasks that were 154 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: likely to make him popular, so he became an excellent singer. 155 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: He became a skilled sketch artist and an actor in 156 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: the school's drama productions. Holidays back home, Yeah, holidays back 157 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: home were spent on yachting expeditions with his again quite 158 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: wealthy family. Um. He first came to the practices of 159 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: scouting while he was at school, though these are boarding schools, 160 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: and the forests near his school, which occupied an old monastery, 161 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: were filled with game animals, and so he would escape 162 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: from school. He wasn't supposed to be doing this and 163 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: hunt in butcher game meat. Um, this was like his 164 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: hobby when he was in school with with what like 165 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: a knife? I assume he had a gun or something 166 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: like like English shotgun. Yeah, I really that is unclear 167 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: to me. Probably it's just knifeing deer in the woods. 168 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: That's what a scout would do. That's one of the 169 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: merit badges I have always assumed. Yeah, stabbed fucking deer 170 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: in the neck. Yeah, just mass murder stags with a 171 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: single pocket knife. A gun ain't fair. Look, the deer's 172 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: got a knife. You got a knife, you got in 173 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: your head. I got knives on my hand. It's perfect now. 174 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: In the British Jackson in eighteen seventy six, he graduated 175 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: school and he found himself somewhat adrift and uncertain of 176 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: what he wanted to do with his life. His mother 177 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: pushed him to join the military, and he quickly fell 178 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: in love with the adventure and camaraderie of that life. 179 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 1: He particularly enjoyed spending all of his time in close 180 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:50,239 Speaker 1: proximity with other young men separated from mainstream British society. 181 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: He was, yeah, he's he's definitely. His sexuality is something 182 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: we'll discuss in a bit sure. There's a lot going 183 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: on here, a decent amount of it's uncomfortable. He became 184 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: an officer because that's the role men in his part 185 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: of English society were born to occupy. A right up 186 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: in the book Scouts Honor notes as an officer, he 187 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: was known for his teaching skills, sense of discipline, and 188 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: obsession with physical and moral cleanliness. He must have seemed 189 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: a bit of a square. He tried to sway his 190 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: men from using brothels and advised them to beat the 191 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: type who could be trusted on their honor to do 192 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: a thing, who were guided by a sense of what 193 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: is their duty rather than by their own inclination, who 194 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: are helpful and kind, especially to the weak, and who, 195 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: by their personal self respect and avoidance of bad habits, 196 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: give themselves a manliness and dignity which no humbug can 197 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: attain to. So, well, that's a he's a stickler. Yeah. 198 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: I mean it sounds like, you know, perfectly good rules 199 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: to live your life by, you know, I mean, yeah, yeah, 200 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: yea here great, yeah, kind of kind of a little 201 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: bit like uptight. You get the sense that, like he 202 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 1: would have been kind of frustrating if you're a young 203 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: man in the military. Oh, he's not very fun but 204 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: certainly not you know, like very distinctly not about like 205 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: cavorting and going out and like drinking and whrring and 206 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: doing stuff that soldiers do, you know, because soldiers are 207 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: all all dirty, dirty bastards. So um. He first served 208 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: as a hussar in India, which is like a mounted soldier. 209 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: He was sent to Africa in the eighteen eighties, where 210 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: he fought as a scout officer against the Zulu in 211 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: what is today South Africa. His courage and competence earned 212 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 1: him repeated commendations. In eighteen ninety, he was promoted to 213 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: major and made senior aide de camp to the governor 214 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: of Malta, who also happened to be his uncle. Because again, 215 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 1: that's how everything works in this empire, a lot of nepotism. 216 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: He's very good at what he does that everyone seems 217 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: to agree with that, but he's also there's a lot 218 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: of nepotism that he benefits from. For the next three 219 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: years he did this job, and he also worked a 220 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: part time as an intelligence officer, and among other things, 221 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: he would like disguise himself as a butterfly collector, so 222 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: he could travel around to foreign military installations and bring 223 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: back intelligence to the British. He would just show up 224 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: as like a butterfly guy and be like, yeah, looking 225 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: at for some butterflies about check out your cannons? Might 226 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: if I read these documents, I'm just gonna I'm trying 227 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: to see if there's butterflies. Yeah, And this is the 228 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: period if you read about, like, um, the British invasions 229 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: of Afghanistan and the Great Game between the Great Britain 230 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: and Russia, which is happening in like this period spying 231 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: at this point, there's not like intelligence agencies. It's a 232 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: bunch of like rich fancy boys on both sides who 233 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: travel around enough fancy together and they bring back intelligence 234 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: and it's yeah, they just it's just basically just gossip 235 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: from like you know, the Yeah. In eighteen ninety six, 236 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: he returned to Africa and he fought in the Second 237 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: Mattabelli War. This was a revolt of the indigenous Mattabelli 238 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 1: people against the British South Africa Company. So again, corporations 239 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 1: are running all of these colonies at this time, and 240 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: the British Empire exists to like enforce their right to 241 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: control large chunks of continent. Um. The Matta belly are 242 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: like it kind of a raw deal for us, and 243 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: they try to fight back, and Baden Powell is among 244 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: the soldiers sent into brutally crush them. This is like 245 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: three now, this is three different uh like colonial like 246 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: wars that he's been part of. He fights in a 247 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: lot of colonial wars. He sees a lot of combat, 248 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: and it is all in the name of of furthering 249 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: the British Empire and the economic interests of British corporations. Yeah. Um, 250 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: And he understands it this way. He is an unrepentant imperialist. 251 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: Baden Powell had no issue deploying industrial armed might against 252 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: a subject people who had starved due in part to 253 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: cattle pests brought over by the British colonizers. This campaign 254 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: was important to the Boy Scouts for two reasons. One, 255 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: it was there that Baden Powell met an American scout 256 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: who introduced him to the concept of woodcraft, the stetson 257 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: cowboy hat, which becomes as an icon of the Boy Scouts, 258 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: and the neckerchief, which is another icon of the Boy Scout. 259 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: So he's very impressed by this. American Scout, and he 260 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: adopted a lot of these aspects of his dress, which 261 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: later become things that the boy Scouts do. Secondly, this 262 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: is where Lord Baden Powell committed his first war crime, 263 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: or at least the first war crime we have documentation of. 264 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: The gist of it was that there was an indigenous 265 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: Matta Belli chief named Weenie. He was thought to be 266 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: a major inspiration for the uprising and was accused of 267 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: murdering white settlers. We might say that those white settlers 268 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: were trying to steal land in the ability to produce 269 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: food from indigenous people, and they fought back. Um a 270 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: number of ways you murder self defense, self defense from 271 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: an invasion. Yeah, um. So Weenie gets wounded in battle, um, 272 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: and he surrenders under the promise that his safety would 273 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: be guaranteed that like he won't be like murdered. For surrendering, 274 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: Baden Powell has him executed, which was definitely illegal. We 275 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: called that the old Baden switch. I was waiting for 276 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: that that was destined to happen. It was. So the 277 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: simple summary of what happened is that, yeah, he committed 278 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: a war crime against black man fighting for the freedom 279 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: of his people Um. Baden Powell's biographer, though, a guy 280 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: named Tim gel Um we'll talk about Tim in a second, 281 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: defends it this way because the chief was wounded during 282 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: capture and Baden Powell doubted he would survive a long 283 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: journey to the Cape to face a civil court. He 284 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: court martialed him on the spot. The verdict was death, 285 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: so he was shot. Baden Powell had exceeded his orders. 286 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: So Tim Gill acknowledges this was illegal, but he also 287 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: was like, well, the guy was wounded. He was it 288 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: was like a mercy killing. You know. That's why we're 289 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: decimating this village because we stole all of the They're 290 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: gonna starve because of the things. What do you want 291 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: to do? You want to watch him software that's no 292 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: get the get the flamethrower over here. Um. So Tim 293 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: gel who you're going to hear from a lot in 294 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,359 Speaker 1: this because he's he's Baden Powell's biggest, best, probably best biographer. 295 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: Regular listeners will recognize him because he also wrote a 296 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: biography we used of Henry Morton Stanley, who was one 297 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: of the artist imperialists in the history of imperialism. This 298 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: is a guy who's scout quote unquote, discovered a shipload 299 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: of Africa, murdered just a tremendous number of people, and 300 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: basically was responsible for conquering the Congo for King Leopold 301 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: via like a series of fake treaties, like he tricked 302 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: them basically on behalf of level. One of the worst 303 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: people who's ever lived. Jim Gill wrote a biography about 304 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: him that's very positive and Tim Geil this is what 305 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: he does. So Jeal is definitely kind of right wing. 306 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: He loves the British Empire. He is frustratingly good at 307 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: the technical aspects of writing biography. So he's really good 308 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: at going through thousands of pages of people's notes and 309 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: diaries and and and synthesizing them and provide so you 310 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: actually get really good information from his books. His the information, 311 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: the facts he provides are generally pretty solid. But you 312 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: also get it with Tim's framing of the facts, which 313 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: is always like ludicrously positive and forgiving of these nightmarish 314 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: war criminals, imperialism stand who's primary source. It's just three 315 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: other pages, yes, literal young, Yeah, he is deeply frustrating. 316 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: Tim Jeel. Now in this case he calls Baden Powell's 317 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: execution of this guy. Quote the most damaging charge made 318 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: against Baden Powell's honor. Now, this is in spite of 319 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: the fact that in eight Robert Baden Powell was in 320 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: charge of an operation to track down Zulu rebels and 321 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: he lost control of his men, who murdered at least 322 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: three people. Geille defends this by arguing, quote, even if 323 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: he had given orders to spare the rebels lives, it's 324 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: incredibly unlikely that his Zulu mercenaries would have obeyed. A 325 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: lot of trouble stemmed from this, and he was lucky 326 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: not to lose his career. It's like, well, Whitey, how 327 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: how do you know that? How do you know that 328 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: he couldn't have stopped this? How do you know they 329 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: were actually rebels? Like you? You just know what this 330 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: guy wrote and is like Jill never actually like he's 331 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: great at giving you what these people were writing and 332 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: saying to each other. He's not so great at like 333 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: seeing the people they were doing violence to as human 334 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: beings and made investigating their side of the case and 335 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: being it is this true? Was It's like not my job. 336 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: I'm a biographer for people who've done nothing wrong. Yeah. 337 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: The most famous moment of Biden Powell's military career came 338 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: the next year, in eighteen nine, with the outbreak of 339 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: the Second Bower War. This is one of those rare 340 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: colonial wars where there's not really anyone who's like a 341 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: good guy here because the Bowers horrible people, like a 342 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: lot of them, horrible people, very racist. This is where 343 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: we get apartheid South Africa. A chunk of that comes 344 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: from this um. But also they're fighting the British Empire 345 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: who put them in concentration camps and kill a huge 346 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: number of women and children. So my sympathy overall is 347 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: with the Bowers, I guess because they're the people putting 348 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: deck camps. But technically I'm like, well, I do hate imperialism. Yeah, 349 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: I guess they're both kind of imperialists. That's a more 350 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: powerful one. Yeah. It's not a fun war to read about. 351 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: The gist of it is that the Bowers, who are 352 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: kind of Dutch, were fighting the British who didn't like 353 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: the idea of Bower's like running ship in South Anyway, whatever, 354 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: you don't need to know too much about this. The 355 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: war is most noteworthy because it was where the British 356 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: first deployed concentration camps and idea they had kind of 357 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: cribbed from the Spanish who had kind of cribbed it 358 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: from what the Americans did to the indigenous people. Um. 359 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: And yeah, this led to the death of a lot 360 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: of Bowers, but also many more Black Africans. A lot 361 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: of Bowers do starve, that's worth noting. But like a 362 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: huge number of the people who starve as a result 363 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: of British policies in this war are Black Africans. Um. 364 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: But at the time this becomes kind of the most 365 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: famous fallout of the Boer War because the Nazis pay 366 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: attention to the British use of concentration camps and it 367 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: has a big inspiration on that. But anyway, um, at 368 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: the time, the most famous battle of the war back 369 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: home in Merry Old Ingleland was the siege of MafA King. 370 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: Robert Baden Powell, who was by this point of colonel, 371 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: was the man in charge of the garrison there and 372 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: basically he's got about fift men, a mix of British 373 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: soldiers and like local African auxiliaries, and he gets besieged 374 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: by a force of eight thousand bow um. And this 375 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: battle lasts close to a year. It's like two hundreds 376 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: something days that they're under siege. So it is it 377 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: is this horrifically bloody battle. By the end of the fighting, 378 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: like two thirds of a year's worth of fighting, Biden 379 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: Pale's lost more than half of his men, the Bowers 380 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: lose two thousand men, a shipload of people starved to death, 381 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: and it is front page news the whole time. This 382 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: is like the most like the biggest story in the 383 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: British Empire back in the Aisles for the better part 384 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 1: of a year, and it makes Robert Baden Powell into 385 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: a celebrity because he's the heroic commander of this this 386 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: scrappy defense under incredible odds to like defend Maficking from 387 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: the Bowers. Um. And he's also he's handsome, right, Like 388 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: he's he's generally noted by women at the time of 389 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: having been a good looking man. Um. And so you've 390 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: got this like handsome young war hero in the siege 391 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 1: that's front page news from months. Um. It makes him 392 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: into one of the most famous people in the entire 393 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: British Empire. And he's only getting more handsome because you know, 394 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: as the food runs out, he's just getting skinnier. He's 395 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: just getting skinnier and skinny, right, those cheek bones are 396 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 1: just getting like prominenter yeah sharp now. The siege held 397 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: several influential moments in the development of scouting. For one thing, 398 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: in order to free up men for the fight, he 399 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 1: deputized a bunch of teenage and preteen boys to act 400 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: as messengers. The Mayficking Cadet core, consisting of twelve to 401 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: fifteen year old boys, is often seen as a precursor 402 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: to the Boy Scouts. So that's one thing um not 403 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: by child soldiers, because he's not trying to have these 404 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,959 Speaker 1: guys fight. He's using them to free up soldiers who 405 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,239 Speaker 1: can hold a rifle and stuff um. In addition, from 406 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: the book Scouts on or quote, one key to victory 407 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: at Mafeking was scouting. Always fond of the outdoors as 408 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: a boy, Baden Powell, as a soldier, had developed a 409 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: passion for tracking animals and people, sneaking up on the enemy, 410 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: and living off nature. He wrote scouting books for adults 411 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: and trained soldiers for a scouting unit. He found the 412 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: business of survival in the wild not just a necessity 413 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: but an intriguing science. Geel rights. Once, when desperately short 414 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: of water, he had seen a buck scratching in the 415 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: sand and by digging at the same spot had found water. Um. 416 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: So he's he's this is like all kind of coming 417 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: together for for Robert Baden how um. And he's maybe 418 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: the only guy who could have like pulled off this 419 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: defense for the British because he has a lot of 420 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: this experience. He actually is not. He's not you get 421 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: a lot of these aristocratic officers are like useless in 422 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: a hard situation. He's not. He is legitimately good at 423 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: being a soldier. I think most historians day agree that 424 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: he was. He was a very competent combat commander. Another 425 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: thing that Baden Powell did at Mayficking was arguably commit 426 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: another war crime. Now this is a in fairness, is 427 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: a more muddled story than the others, which in my 428 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: mind are very clear war crimes. The short of this 429 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: story is that, allegedly, when food stores ran low, he 430 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: chose to feed white people and let black residents in 431 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: May Pickings starved to death. Um. This exerpt from the 432 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: Irish Times gives a good overview of the war criminal allegations. 433 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: Faced with foods shortages, he simply chose to deprive most 434 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: Africans in the town of any food whatsoever, even their own, 435 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: which he had earlier forcibly requisitioned. A few vital African 436 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: laborers were allowed to buy rations. Others were reduced to 437 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: scavenging dog corpses in rub sheeps. So that is that 438 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: is the that is the war crime allegation against kind 439 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 1: of what he does here. Um, he ordered one group 440 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: of thirty three Africans out on a cattle drive of 441 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: bower herds, otherwise to be flogged. The bowers captured and 442 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: murdered all but one of the poor devil's unperturbed, Biden 443 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: Powell then evicted several hundred African women from the town. 444 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: Many were murdered by the bowers, and a few pitiful 445 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,959 Speaker 1: survivors were stripped, naked, flogged, and sent back. Yet their 446 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: shameful fate troubled him not the least. And you'll hear 447 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,719 Speaker 1: a couple of different death tolls for this. I think 448 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: two thousand is kind of like the upper number of 449 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: like how many people die as a result of Biden 450 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: Powell making these calls. Now, Tim Gel, true to form 451 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: has a ready defense for Biden Powell. Here he says 452 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: of these allegations, quote, this is an absolute lie. He 453 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: opened soup kitchens and shot all of his cavalry horses 454 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 1: so he could feed them. And in this case, jeal 455 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: is not entirely wrong. Here again, how you what exactly, 456 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: how exactly you come down on this is messy. Um. 457 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: He is an actual biographer, so he's not. Biden Pell 458 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: did have his horses slaughtered in order to provide like 459 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: soup for for the people in may fick Ing. Um. Yeah. 460 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: Historians debate whether or not Baden Powell intentionally starved black 461 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: residents at Mayficking. One South African historian said in nine 462 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: this can only be described as a crime against humanity, 463 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: for which he deserves to be reappraised as a war criminal. 464 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: But in two thousands, a pair of military historians, Edmund 465 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: York and Malcolm flower Smith of the Royal Military Academy 466 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: at Sandhurst, analyzed diaries from soldiers and civilians during the siege, 467 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: including Baden Powell's diaries, and they came to a different conclusion. 468 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna quote from the Guardian here. Biden Powell 469 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: had based garrison rations on a prospect of relief within 470 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: two months Kitchener, who's the High General in charge of 471 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: the whole war, ordered him to send as many women 472 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: and children and natives as possible a way to save rations. 473 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: So kitchen Or orders him get the noncombatants out of 474 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: the city so you don't have to feed as many people. 475 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: But the authors say the papers indicate that this harsh 476 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: policy was not aimed at the townships. Seven thousand st 477 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: wrong majority of Blacks the bar Along tribe, who were 478 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: valued soldiers and boosted foodstocks by rustling Bower cattle. It's 479 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: victims were two thousand outside Africans, including Shangans, who was 480 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: like so a different tribe of Africans, a smaller subset 481 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: of the population. Their food rations in Mayficking were cut off. 482 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: Biden Poal negotiated safe passage for them. For this, the 483 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: Shangans with the besieging Bowers to British held territory, supplying 484 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: a military escort and food wagon, but the truce was broken. 485 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 1: The first attempt to drive nine dred Blacks out at 486 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: night was scattered by Boer snipers. The second by day 487 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: saw them decimated by Bower attacks. The policy of forced 488 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: evacuation was a blunder. Dr York said Baden Powe was 489 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: the reluctant victim of external military imperatives. He realized his 490 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: errors and dropped it. So that's complicated. Yeah, that's complicated 491 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: because like, yeah, he his calls get a bunch of 492 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: people killed, he's also acting on orders. He's not trying 493 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: necessarily to get people killed. He's trying to get them 494 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: out of there so they can go to British territory 495 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: where there's more more food. The bowers attack ac these people, 496 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: like you could argue he didn't like, it's unclike. And 497 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: I'm not a historian because obviously these scholars who are 498 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: saying no, no, what he did was understandable, he wasn't 499 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: trying to kill anybody are British military historians from the 500 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: Royal Military Academy at Sanders um so have have a bias. Um. Yeah, 501 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: I mean I feel like, you know, I'm inclined to 502 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: not give him the benefit of the doubt and just 503 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 1: say he probably did that ship. So I think what's 504 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: probably true is that he was not trying to get 505 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: anybody killed. But also the fact that these these people 506 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 1: not just that they're black, but they're black members of 507 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: this tribe. That is not valuable to him. He's not 508 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: troubled by what happens to them, really, and it's not 509 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: he He probably could have done a lot more to 510 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: to not get them killed. Um, it is true that 511 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: after this happens, he he kills all his horses. He 512 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: creates soup kitchens to feed starving people, but distribution of 513 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: food from those kitchens was biased towards Europeans and elite 514 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: members of the Barolong tribe. Um. These British military scholars 515 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: like note this, but say, quote, he was no more 516 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: racially prejudiced than the vast maturity of his generation, which 517 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 1: isn't wrong, but doesn't make it not like a war crime. Also, 518 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: to be fair, yeah, to be fair black, Yeah, every 519 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: he wasn't racist or than everyone else. Yeah, but did 520 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: his policies get more of them killed because he like 521 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: gave food to white people? And say, well, yeah, but 522 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,959 Speaker 1: he didn't do it because he was more any racist 523 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: person back then, which was everyone would have done this. 524 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: I'm like, well, okay, yeah, but like that doesn't do 525 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: you see why that's not good. I love the idea 526 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: of just well, you know, relative to the time period, 527 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 1: but you don't know what a piece of shit everybody 528 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: was back on. That's I mean, give him a pass. 529 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: This is not to give him a pass, but it 530 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: is fair to describe the war crimes he committed that 531 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: way as in And again this is not to give 532 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: him a pass. This is actually just to condemn the 533 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: British Empire as a war criminal. Within the context of 534 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: British officers in his time, he was more restrained and 535 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 1: respectful of the life of non white people than most 536 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: of his colleagues, who again had often committed genocides. Like like, 537 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: that's what like in saying that, like the s S 538 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: commander who just starves Jewish people rather than driving them 539 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 1: to the gas chambers, Like, well, he was more restrained 540 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: than the other cool. Yeah, it's like yeah, I mean 541 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: it's not. Again, this is not too This is not 542 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: to to to defend Baiden Pound. This is to put 543 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: him in the context of the British Empire. He does 544 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: count as like relatively mild based on the other military 545 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: officers of his generation in that position. And again, what 546 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: he does in mayficking is mild compared to the fucking 547 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: concentration camps that the Kitchen setting up. Yeah. Um, not again, 548 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: not to whitewash the man to put him in context, 549 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,719 Speaker 1: because for one thing, you should always you can never 550 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: be emphatic enough about how bad the British Empire was, 551 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: and another part because there there actually is a lot 552 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: of inaccurate anti Baiden Powell propaganda out there. Um. One 553 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: of the things people sent me before I did this, 554 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: because they wanted me to do this, was like a 555 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: book that had been written by this guy in which 556 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: he alleges that Robert Baden Powell and Kitchener were both 557 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: like pedophiles on like a grand massively abuse of scale, 558 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: and among other things, alleges that Robert Baden Powell early 559 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,479 Speaker 1: in his career, authorized the execution of two sixteen year 560 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: old Irish soldiers who he's sodomized before murdering, which, like, 561 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: that's pretty bad. That's the thing that happened. Here's the 562 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: thing the book that that allegation comes from, and I 563 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: found it nowhere else. That book was written by a 564 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: guy who also wrote a book alleging that Adolf Hitler 565 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: was a British spy. So well, there is a chain 566 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: of people who are unreasonably anti like it's not unreasonably 567 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: anti British Empire. But who are like anti British Empire 568 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: in a way that's not Yeah, that's like, you know, 569 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: the evil of the British empires and that invented Hitler. 570 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: It's all of the genesize. There's a lot to hate 571 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: about the British Empire. Kitchener didn't like train Adolf Hitler 572 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: to create World War Two to further British profits or 573 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: whatever the funk this guy believes. It's I mean, you know, 574 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: it's uh, it's it's in general, it's always okay to 575 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,959 Speaker 1: hate the British Empire. But uh, you know, if your 576 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: sources someone who's like and therefore really Nazism, Brits look 577 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: at it. So yeah, Baden pal probably didn't execute and 578 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: sodomized two sixteen year old Irish soldiers, and you know 579 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: who else probably didn't. It's Sophie. Is that a bad 580 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: way to good ads? It's really bad, I said, probably didn't. 581 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: Probably Somebody somebody on Twitter this week asked me if 582 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: we've ever gone a complaint from sponsors about your transition 583 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: to ads, and like, no, but maybe now, maybe now 584 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: we can just bleep it out. That'll leave people one dring. 585 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: Like the last time we breap something out. Every time 586 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: we've bleeped something out, which is always done just as 587 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: a joke, people get like really conspiratory, like, oh they 588 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: must have gotten the legal threat from this person or 589 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: that person. Know, I thought it was funny. It's funny 590 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: if you bleep things out sometimes than saying them, because 591 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: the mystery box is always funny. Yeah, but yeah, let's 592 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: bleep out that, Sophie and then never explain it. Um, 593 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: other fucker's all right, we're back, Sophie. Come on, professionalism, jesus, 594 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: get it together. You gotta be professional, Sophie. People come 595 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: to us expecting a degree of of of of professitude. 596 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: I think it's yeah, come on, at the very least, 597 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: all my elementary school friends who have reached out to 598 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: say they listened to the show, they told me they 599 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: listened to it for the professionalism. For the professionalism, right, 600 00:31:54,520 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: that's what we all has ever given me that feedback, Well, well, 601 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: you have the wrong elementary school friends, that's right. So 602 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: I've been saying that for years. Um So, when it 603 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: comes to aspects of Robert baden Pal's early life that 604 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: are relevant to his founding of the Boy Scouts, we 605 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: should probably get into his his sexuality, which is there's 606 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: a lot that's messy here. From one thing, he was 607 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: almost certainly homosexual, that's not questionable. Um. Tim Jail even 608 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: agrees like this, this he was almost certainly gay, right like, 609 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: and this is not uncommon. A significant number of the 610 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: men who build the British Empire. There's a really good 611 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: argument to made that they may have been and possibly 612 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: like celibate home like gay men, because again, it is 613 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: illegal to be gay at this period, Like people go 614 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: to prison for for having homosexual like relationships and stuff. 615 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: It is extremely for and so a lot of these 616 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: guys would I mean, I doubt Biden pal considered himself homosexual, 617 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: but like a lot of the guys who build the Empire, 618 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: are these men who have these who don't like human 619 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: Morton Stanley doesn't like women, is kind of disgusted by 620 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: like the female body, and has all these incredibly intense, 621 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: like loving relationships with men that are probably not sexual like. 622 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: We really don't know, because obviously they wouldn't have written 623 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: about it if it was, because it was a felony. Um. 624 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: There's a lot of this going on in the British Empire. 625 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: And and Baden Powell is almost certainly one of those guys, 626 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: one of those guys who maybe like again I'm certain 627 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: would never have accepted to himself that he was gay, 628 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: probably never had gay sex. We certainly don't have any 629 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: evidence of that. Um. But he loved, he loved, He 630 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: found the male body beautiful and the female body disgusting, 631 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: which like, what what do you like? Take what you 632 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: will out of that. Um. The big debate isn't around 633 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: like was this a guy with like some homosexual like inclinations? 634 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: It is was he also a pedophile? Um? And I 635 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,239 Speaker 1: should be clear upfront because this is going to get 636 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: real murky. We do not have any evidence that he 637 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: was a child molester, and I think I think that's 638 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: unlikely that he ever. But the question is was he 639 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: attracted to kids or was he attracted to just kids? 640 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: Like we really it's it's messy. Um. He definitely had 641 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: some very intense romantic relationships with young men who were adults, 642 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: So it wasn't like whatever his attraction was, it wasn't 643 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: exclusively to kids. If he was attracted to kids, um, 644 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: he seems to have preferred men in their teens like 645 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: sixteen to nineteen, was like his his kind of sweet 646 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 1: spot I think about, like, well, technically that's not pedophilia, 647 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: no no, but also you can join the military at 648 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 1: like sixteen, so like it is, there are some I'm 649 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: not trying to like I'm trying to explain this is 650 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: a different kind of culture, and I don't think he 651 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: actually does anything with anything boys like, which also does matter. Um, 652 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: so we'll talk more about this later. There's a lot 653 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: of this is a very murky and and anytime you're 654 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 1: talking about the sexuality of a man in a period 655 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: in which his likely sexuality was criminalized from what you 656 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: have in his diaries, that's going to be imperfect. But 657 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: it is necessary to discuss because of how the Boy 658 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,919 Speaker 1: Scouts has made in his image and the story. Yeah, 659 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: so he returns and like the early nine he gets 660 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: back from from the Boer War, and he's a hero, 661 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: one of the most famous men in in the British 662 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: Empire and also just like in the Western world, he's 663 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 1: incredibly prominent at this point and he is seen as 664 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 1: a man's man, like he's he's considered handsome. He's this 665 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: war hero, he's like been through a bunch of shit. 666 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: He's legitimately like hard man like he's he's just gone 667 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: through some stuff. Um. One government minister even creates the 668 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: Baden Powell League of Health and Manliness in his honor, 669 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: which is absolutely that is, I think we can all agree, 670 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: the straightest name and organization has ever had. Yeah, that's 671 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: incredible after what is most likely a game man. It's 672 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: just like, yeah, the Health and Manliness, Yeah, it's very funny. Yeah, 673 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: it's very funny technically civil rights like Yeah, UM members 674 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: were quote expected to do good turns a shoe tobacco 675 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,280 Speaker 1: until they were twenty one, and lead healthy and physically 676 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: strenuous lives. This is according to Tim gel Lead members 677 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: wore badges with pictures of Baden Powell on them. It 678 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: was a huge success. A lot of guys get interested 679 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: in this, uh, and this fact helps to convince Baden 680 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: Powell after he returns home from the war that the 681 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: young men of England are desperate for an organization that 682 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 1: can give their lives structure and train them up for 683 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: a grand purpose. Yeah, a little bit of that, I 684 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: mean not, but this is really focused on because it's 685 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: not about her. It's not like a really paramilitary it's 686 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 1: not about like it's about teaching them useful life skills, 687 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean a big part of 688 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: it is you have England and industrialized rapidly in this period, 689 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: this huge population of young men, many of whom don't 690 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: have fathers because their dad's died in some sort of 691 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: like industrial accident accident, yes, shimney accident. And a bunch 692 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: of them are like, um, they've they've lived in cities 693 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: their whole if they don't know anything about the outdoors, 694 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: They don't know anything about like survival and stuff. And 695 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: he wants to he wants to like teach these people 696 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: useful skills, to give them to like deal with this 697 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 1: kind of the malaise that's growing under capitalism. You see 698 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: in the US too, like all of these like angry, disaffected, 699 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: miserable urban populations. He sees this, and his answers like, well, 700 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: give them some sort of structure, teach them useful skills, 701 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: get them out of the city, you know, which is 702 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 1: not a bad idea. Um. Yeah, from Scouts Honor the 703 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: book quote Biden Pale had always gotten along with children. 704 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: His love for children is perhaps his ruling passion. One 705 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: journalist wrote of his work in Africa, he is never 706 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: happier than when surrounded by them. They surrounded him back 707 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: home as well, as he stepped into the effort to 708 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: strengthen England's young men physically, mentally and spiritually. Youth brigades 709 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,399 Speaker 1: and clubs were sprouting all over. In n Baden, Powell 710 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: rewrote aids to Scouting for n c O S and Men, 711 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: which he had originally written for soldiers, to make it 712 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: suitable for boys. Several of Baiden Pal's friends had been 713 00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 1: suggesting the rewrite as well as the creation of an 714 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: outdoor boys club, so that summer, Biden Powell and an 715 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: army friend ran the first boy scout camp to see 716 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: how the idea would work. So this is kind of 717 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: the genesis of this, and it's happening. A lot of 718 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: stuff is happening in culture these and there's other boys 719 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: clubs kind of starting up. And he has this idea 720 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: to take these scouting guides that he wrote for soldiers 721 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: in Africa, rewrite them for little kids and give them 722 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: a place to actually get out of the city and 723 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: learn this stuff. Yeah, I mean just uh so not 724 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: the proud boys, but more like uh like the Hitler youth. Yeah. 725 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: And in fact Biden Pale is really interested in the 726 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: Hitler Youth. Now there's a lot of arguments like whether 727 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: or not, and he said a lot of nasty stuff 728 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: about Hitler. I don't know that. I don't think I 729 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't call him a Nazi, but there's certainly elements of 730 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: his belief system that we're like friendly with some early 731 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: aspects of fascism, Like he was very intrigued by the 732 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: Hitler youth. Though in fairness, the Nazis considered the Boy 733 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 1: Scouts a subversive organization, so like there's a lot going 734 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: on there. We're not gonna get into that much. You 735 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: can find a lot written about it. I'm not gonna 736 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 1: like Delvin and take a side on this like historical 737 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,839 Speaker 1: debate of how sympathetic was he like with whatever. Um. Now, 738 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: that account from a book written critical The Scout's Honor 739 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,800 Speaker 1: is written about sexual abuse within the Boy Scouts. Like 740 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: based on the title, you might think it was like 741 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,359 Speaker 1: a pro Boy Scouts history. It is not assumed. Yeah, yeah, 742 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: it was written in ninete I think it was the 743 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 1: early nineties, And that account of like how the Boy 744 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: Scouts get started is generally in line with the story 745 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 1: that I heard growing up but the actual origins of 746 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: the Boy Scouts are a bit more complex and more 747 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 1: rooted in cultural appropriation and also outright theft. Biden Powell 748 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: is not the only founder of the Boy Scouts. I'm 749 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: not going to go into too much to tail about 750 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: this because it's not relevant to the actual story we're telling, 751 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: but it is worth noting that in nineteen o two, 752 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: so that's like five years before Biden Powell rewrites his 753 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: book about Scouting, an American named Ernest Thompson Seaton had 754 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: some property vandalized by rambunctious boys, and instead of punishing them, 755 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: he invited them onto his land for the weekend, and 756 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,760 Speaker 1: he taught them like some camping stuff, and he claimed 757 00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: all of these like this, like woodcraft he was teaching. 758 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: He claimed like Native American like wilderness lore and whatnot. 759 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it's just stuff he'd learned. 760 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: And he was like making up stories that weren't true, 761 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: because like stories about Native America, and he would tell 762 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: them like folk stories about Native Americans. Again, I don't 763 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: know how much of any of this was accurate. He's 764 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: certainly appropriating it because again he's as white as they come. Um. Again, 765 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: I don't know how accurate any of this was. In 766 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 1: any case, the weekend was a hit. This is like 767 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: really successful, and he thinks it helps these boys out, 768 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: so he keeps doing it and he eventually forms an 769 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: organization that he called the Woodcraft Indians. This was so 770 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 1: successful it gets very popular. I think it's particularly like 771 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,399 Speaker 1: the eastern chunk of the US that after a couple 772 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: of years he writes a book called The Birch Bark Role, 773 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 1: which lays out his lessons and boys, and it's all 774 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,399 Speaker 1: routed like here's Native American wisdom for you know, white 775 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 1: boys who want to learn how to be woodsman. Seaton 776 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: was successful enough that this this word of what he 777 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:54,839 Speaker 1: was doing across the pond. And in nineteen o six 778 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,320 Speaker 1: Seaton traveled to England to give Robert Baden Powell a 779 00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: copy of his book, and Baden Powell may have gone 780 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: to the United States to attend one of his um 781 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: his birch Bark gatherings. It was a huge influence on 782 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,279 Speaker 1: scouting for boys. We have letters from Baden Powell saying 783 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: like I'm taking a lot of what like you put 784 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: in this book into like the thing that I'm writing. UM. 785 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: And when the Boy Scouts as an organization were created 786 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen ten. They were heavily influenced by the structure 787 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: of the Woodcraft tribe. Seton was angry for years. He 788 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: gets really angry that the idea has been stolen, and 789 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 1: there's a lot of debate as to how true that was. 790 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: People will point out that Baden Powell, he'd had boys 791 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,799 Speaker 1: organizations that he'd been involved with before. He'd clearly been 792 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 1: playing with this idea before. Yeah, I've been hanging out 793 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,800 Speaker 1: with little boys. I love happened hanging out with boys 794 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: before you were born exactly. Um. But today Seton is 795 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 1: recognized even by the b s A as one of 796 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: the founders of the Boy Scouts, and it's there's some 797 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 1: people who argue that, like, he was kind of more 798 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: left wing and that like the Boy Scouts wind up 799 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: being kind of right wing because Baden Powell dominates it. 800 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 1: I don't know how accurate I think that is. Kaseton 801 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: is like, again a ton of cultural appropriation here. I 802 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: think that people have a tendency to kind of like 803 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: idolize him over much. Um. Yeah. I will note that 804 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: while Seton definitely like did a lot of cultural appropriation 805 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: to make his organization. I don't have any evidence that 806 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 1: he deliberately enabled a culture of child sex abuse, which 807 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 1: Robert Biden Pale absolutely did. So if you've got to 808 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: pick a favorite Boy Scout founder, I do think I 809 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: I pick cultural appropriation over child molestation. I think I 810 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: think I'm gonna give it to that. Yeah, there are levels. 811 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: I mean, they're both problematic. We can say that they're 812 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 1: they're they're definitely both problemat Bullbard grounds for a cancelation, 813 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 1: but one more so than a yeah. I think if 814 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 1: i'm if I'm if I'm prepping the cancel canon, I'm 815 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,320 Speaker 1: going for the guy who enabled child molestation on a 816 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: massive scale first. Probably good speaking of child molestation and 817 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: a massive scale, that shouldn't be an ad break, should it. 818 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: So um, back to Baden Powell. Let's get back to 819 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: Baden Pale. So he writes aids to Scouting for n 820 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: c O S and Men in nineteen oh seven, and 821 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,359 Speaker 1: shortly thereafter that same summer they start the first boy 822 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: Scout camp, and the Boy Scouts aren't an organization, is 823 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: to in nineteen ten, they're kind of like testing out, Like, 824 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: let's get a bunch of boys on the land. Let's 825 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 1: teach him. Let's see if this is like actually a 826 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: good idea, if kids like it, if it's if it's 827 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: got legs. Basically, um, this is their beta test um. 828 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:21,759 Speaker 1: So they bring a bunch of boys to the land, 829 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: this land they've got. They spend a week with them hiking, 830 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 1: teaching them how to make tents, and according to the 831 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 1: book Scouts Honor quote, at the end of the day, 832 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 1: there were rubbed downs and stories around the campfire. So 833 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:38,399 Speaker 1: that's that's potentially problematic and potentially problematic. The stories around 834 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: the campfire was fine. It was just like it's the rubdowns. 835 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,320 Speaker 1: It's the rub down, rubdowns, rubdowns and stories maybe no 836 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,720 Speaker 1: rubdowns bars and like running hands through the hair of children. 837 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: And then also like looking at the stars. I think 838 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:54,759 Speaker 1: a couple of things can be true. One is that 839 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: we currently have a problem in our culture where like 840 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: men who feel like called to teach young boys things 841 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: like mentor young boys, they get like unfairly accused, and 842 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: like people get suspicious as like I would a man 843 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 1: like carabouit, which is it's actually good for for men 844 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: to like care about the mental ring and child not 845 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:22,760 Speaker 1: bad having actually rubbed downs rub downs is a line, 846 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: is a line that has been crossed when you're doing 847 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 1: rub downs of the boys in your care things have 848 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 1: things have crossed the line in my opinion, Yeah, and 849 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,879 Speaker 1: rub downs cross that line on the head little yeah, 850 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,320 Speaker 1: And I guess yeah, I don't. You could argue that 851 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,239 Speaker 1: the rub downs were not like necessarily sexualist all because 852 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, like what, but certainly you're on a 853 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,399 Speaker 1: line there, you're you're, you're, you're, you're at an uncomfortable point. 854 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: It's a gray area, that rubbed down area. However far 855 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: these went, Biden Powell seemed to get something intensely powerful 856 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: out of the experience. His widow would later tell an 857 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,399 Speaker 1: interviewer that though he'd spoken at many youth groups since 858 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,200 Speaker 1: his return from the war, quote, this was different. These 859 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: boys were his his for a week, to work with, 860 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 1: to play with, to learn from, and if his ideas 861 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: were right, to guide, to influence, to mold. So again, 862 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,399 Speaker 1: I know, like, I know, playing with kids it's good, 863 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: it is, it's good. It's good to care about seconds 864 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: sentence I'd like you to delete it. Just you can't 865 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:34,880 Speaker 1: say these problematic play with like activities do act do 866 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: activities with kids? Yeah? God, the language around it is 867 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,040 Speaker 1: very difficult. He took his strong feelings during this week 868 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 1: as a sign that his new calling was to mentor boys. 869 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 1: In nineteen o eight, he published his rewritten book as 870 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 1: Scouting for Boys, and this included within the Scout Oath, 871 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: which is on my honor, I will do my best 872 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: to do my duty for God in my country and 873 00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: to obey the Scout law to help other people at 874 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,360 Speaker 1: all times times to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, 875 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: and morally straight. Um, that's a famous and the scout 876 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 1: law is uh that a bunch of ships about the helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, 877 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,400 Speaker 1: clean reverend like all that ship that's like this is 878 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: still like rubbed downs. Morally straight baby, Yeah. I mean, 879 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 1: if there's one person who screams straight to me, it's 880 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: Robert Paton, a straight manly guy. That's a straight manly 881 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,279 Speaker 1: man right there. You will generally run into a few 882 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: different theories as to what the overall purpose of scouting was. 883 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 1: The sinister theory is best summarized by this passage from 884 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 1: an Irish Times article quote. For him, the boy Scout 885 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,320 Speaker 1: movement was an unarmed, paramilitary expression of the empire. So 886 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 1: that's one angle that he's trying to train up the 887 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,400 Speaker 1: soldiers of the future, right, He's getting boys ready to 888 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,880 Speaker 1: fight for the British Empire. Biographer Michael Rosenthal shares this opinion, writing, 889 00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,120 Speaker 1: all of Scouting can be properly understood as Baden Powell 890 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: himself understood it as an organization expressly designed to churn 891 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,760 Speaker 1: out admirable obedient lads. Scouting sought to guarantee for society 892 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 1: the complete submission of its members. And there's a lot 893 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:14,920 Speaker 1: to be said. We won't get into enough about like 894 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,280 Speaker 1: World War One's impact on Scouting, because a huge chunk 895 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,120 Speaker 1: of the British soldiers who die in World War One 896 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,400 Speaker 1: were former Boy Scouts and kind of one of the 897 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,080 Speaker 1: It had been very British up to World War One, 898 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,640 Speaker 1: and it becomes much more international after that point and 899 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 1: much less kind of dedicated to specifically British imperialism. And 900 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 1: I don't I don't really know enough about like did 901 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,319 Speaker 1: Biden Powell look at like how gung ho all these 902 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,440 Speaker 1: young men were to go have an adventure overseas that 903 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:41,680 Speaker 1: lead in getting mowed down by machine guns, fire and 904 00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:45,479 Speaker 1: sucked into mud and be like shit because other people 905 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: who were like are like Teddy Roosevelt is like horrified 906 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,520 Speaker 1: by world. Like one of his kids dies there who 907 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,319 Speaker 1: he like really pushes to go fight and like dies 908 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 1: horribly and he's like a Jesus. A lot of people 909 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,000 Speaker 1: have I thought this is gonna be simple, like the 910 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,320 Speaker 1: Philippines or whatever. Yeah, Ruard Kipling has kind of a 911 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:06,960 Speaker 1: similar like like it has this like profoundly almost radicalizing 912 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,799 Speaker 1: experience at Kipling. Kipling's a fascinating guy wrote some really 913 00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,759 Speaker 1: like some of the most imperialist ship ever written, and 914 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,680 Speaker 1: also some like really profoundly anti imperialist stuff about like 915 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 1: you know, groups of of of like indigenous people like 916 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:25,000 Speaker 1: destroying empires and stuff and like all this like fascinating dude, 917 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,719 Speaker 1: so um. Tim Gel, on the other hand, writes that 918 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 1: biden Pal's purpose was more protective than this uh quote. 919 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 1: Adult life was full of dangers. Women could deprave them, 920 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,520 Speaker 1: politicians mislead them, and gambling and drunkenness could wreck their lives. 921 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 1: But in his boy's only world, he would counteract these 922 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,279 Speaker 1: dangers with hiking, camping, cheery, sing songs, and other safe activities. 923 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,120 Speaker 1: And I think both these views are probably accurate. I 924 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,360 Speaker 1: think biden Pal did legitimately care about the health and 925 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,759 Speaker 1: well being of boys, and he wanted to help them 926 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,920 Speaker 1: grow up healthy. He was fiercely protective of them. I 927 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,240 Speaker 1: also think he wanted them to become good little soldiers 928 00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,720 Speaker 1: of empire because he was an imperial. Um. He probably 929 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,719 Speaker 1: because he thought that was a good thing. It's not 930 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,880 Speaker 1: like that that wasn't sinister for him now. And I 931 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,279 Speaker 1: was like, yes, you know, this is what men are 932 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,080 Speaker 1: supposed to do. You will, yeah, men, men are supposed 933 00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,799 Speaker 1: to learn how to like carve things into would make 934 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 1: macaroni pictures and uh fucking you know in depressed indigenous 935 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,520 Speaker 1: people's right exactly for the wealth of you know whatever. Um. 936 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,520 Speaker 1: It's also kind of worth noting here that um biden 937 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,239 Speaker 1: Peal grew up fatherless. As we stated, he never had 938 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,240 Speaker 1: a father, and he a big part of his angles. 939 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,759 Speaker 1: There's a bunch of kids in in Great Britain in 940 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,160 Speaker 1: this period who who don't have fathers. And part of 941 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 1: his goal for the Boy Scouts, which is an admirable 942 00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,920 Speaker 1: goal for an organization, is to provide He wanted to 943 00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,359 Speaker 1: train up hundreds of Scout masters who could act as 944 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,960 Speaker 1: like surrogate fathers two children, um, who didn't have them. 945 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 1: So like, okay, if you're a single mom, you're kind 946 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,239 Speaker 1: of struggling to figure out how to raise a boy. 947 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:58,960 Speaker 1: This organization will provide him with healthy male mentorship, right, Um, 948 00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,680 Speaker 1: which is certainly the Boys and Girls Club. There's kind 949 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,040 Speaker 1: of similar themes in a bunch of good organizations. It's 950 00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:09,600 Speaker 1: not a bad idea. Um. However, Um, there's also problematic 951 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,239 Speaker 1: aspects of this um because one of the reasons he 952 00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,360 Speaker 1: thinks that he needs to train up scout masters to 953 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,160 Speaker 1: be surrogate fathers for the boys of Britain's um is 954 00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:22,400 Speaker 1: that because quote except where the scout masters take the 955 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,160 Speaker 1: father's place, the boys have no one to consult on 956 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 1: intimate subjects. So from the beginning he's like, well, what 957 00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, obviously they need they need a man in 958 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,160 Speaker 1: their lives to teach them, you know, manly things, but 959 00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,480 Speaker 1: also like to talk about sex. This is from the beginning, Yeah, 960 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:43,160 Speaker 1: which is not again, yes, not necessary, but maybe not 961 00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,800 Speaker 1: this way. Yeah, I think it's nothing wrong with talking 962 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,560 Speaker 1: to your kids about fucking. But having said that sentence, 963 00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,800 Speaker 1: an adult and generally an adult of the these semigen 964 00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,320 Speaker 1: gender identity, they have to talk to them about sex. 965 00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:05,200 Speaker 1: That's a good thing, I think, I mean, yeah, it is. Yeah, 966 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,680 Speaker 1: it just depends on where we're going. But there it 967 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:13,920 Speaker 1: can go very wrong, is the point. And so like yeah, again, 968 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,840 Speaker 1: all of the all of the family is this stuff 969 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:21,600 Speaker 1: where it's like, yeah, but where are we going? Where? 970 00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:28,920 Speaker 1: Which where are you gonna take this? Because and this 971 00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:30,800 Speaker 1: is one of the things some scholars will point is 972 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,200 Speaker 1: that one of the groundbreaking things about the Boy Scouts 973 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,759 Speaker 1: is that it was the only really organization of its 974 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,680 Speaker 1: size and popular culture that explicit was like, we are 975 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:40,000 Speaker 1: one of the things we're here to do is to 976 00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,480 Speaker 1: talk to young men about sex, about their sexual development, right, 977 00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:50,640 Speaker 1: which is progressive. But and we're going to get to 978 00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,840 Speaker 1: the butt. But first, you know what else is sexually progressive, 979 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,680 Speaker 1: matt You know what else gets straight to the butt? 980 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,879 Speaker 1: The products and services that support this guest. I'm trying 981 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,759 Speaker 1: to think what the funniest add it could be? Right now? 982 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:11,040 Speaker 1: For sure, the means days it is fun to like 983 00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,560 Speaker 1: chart the growth of podcasts in the areas of ads, 984 00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:18,640 Speaker 1: like I came of age during the during the mattress. Yeah, yeah, 985 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,080 Speaker 1: remember when we used to get free things. I got 986 00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:31,759 Speaker 1: two free mattresses. It was rad Ah. We're back and 987 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:36,200 Speaker 1: we're all just having a great time talking about a 988 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:41,040 Speaker 1: guy who's not at all deeply problematic. They're going to 989 00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:45,040 Speaker 1: be able to cut out snippets of this podcast and 990 00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,839 Speaker 1: cancel me for generations. Oh yeah, no, you you are 991 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:53,120 Speaker 1: going to be canceled well into the twenty third century. Yeah, 992 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,600 Speaker 1: when the Federation of Planets starts up, there's going to 993 00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:59,640 Speaker 1: be a Galaxy class starship named the Cancelation of matt Leeb. 994 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:06,000 Speaker 1: Just where I think it's good to play with kids, 995 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:09,680 Speaker 1: that's the noise it makes when it goes into warp. 996 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:19,200 Speaker 1: Good times. So, the fact that one of the purposes 997 00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,799 Speaker 1: of scouting is to provide boys with male mentors who 998 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:26,120 Speaker 1: can talk to them about intimate issues, one of the 999 00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,560 Speaker 1: things that this means is that naturally the Scout masters, 1000 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,880 Speaker 1: who are mostly volunteers that Biden Powell is bringing in, 1001 00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:34,800 Speaker 1: are going to have to talk to boys about sexual 1002 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:39,440 Speaker 1: issues like masturbation. Um. And again, this was somewhat revolutionary 1003 00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:41,600 Speaker 1: for its day, but it's also worth knowing that, like 1004 00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:45,160 Speaker 1: the fact that they're talking about this is revolutionary, their 1005 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:49,719 Speaker 1: attitude towards it is profoundly conservative. Abstinence is the only 1006 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,319 Speaker 1: thing ever encouraged. But at the same time, the mere 1007 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,960 Speaker 1: fact that their literature addressed masturbation as a topic was 1008 00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:57,279 Speaker 1: kind of progressive for the era. Yeah, they talked about 1009 00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:01,080 Speaker 1: the existence of it. Yeah, this is not a good 1010 00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,520 Speaker 1: thing necessarily, As we discussed Baden Pal's impulse to discuss 1011 00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,400 Speaker 1: boys sexuality came from a really problematic place. But I 1012 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,640 Speaker 1: want to read you his advice on masturbation as it 1013 00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,320 Speaker 1: was written for the first draft of his book on Scouting, 1014 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,720 Speaker 1: because I know this is something you need in your life. Please, 1015 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:17,759 Speaker 1: this is gonna be fun to list. Let me get 1016 00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,640 Speaker 1: my my old timmy voice got ready. You all know 1017 00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,120 Speaker 1: what it is to have, at times a pleasant feeling 1018 00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,960 Speaker 1: in your private parts, and there comes an inclination to 1019 00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,160 Speaker 1: work it up with your hand. The result of self abuses. 1020 00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:32,600 Speaker 1: Always mind you, always that the boy after a time 1021 00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,719 Speaker 1: becomes weak and nervous and shy. He gets headaches and 1022 00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,680 Speaker 1: probably palpitations of the heart, and if he carries it 1023 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,160 Speaker 1: on too far, he very often goes out of his 1024 00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,400 Speaker 1: mind and becomes an idiot. A very large number of 1025 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:48,200 Speaker 1: lunatics and our asylums have made themselves mad by indulging 1026 00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,400 Speaker 1: in this vice, although at one time they were sensible, 1027 00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:55,880 Speaker 1: cheery boys like you. Jesus. First of all, that was 1028 00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:00,640 Speaker 1: like the carnival carnival barker from hell me not to 1029 00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:07,200 Speaker 1: jerk off. I do. I do love the idea of 1030 00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,359 Speaker 1: like the well, you know, if you jerk off too 1031 00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:16,799 Speaker 1: much you become insane, because it's a theory so easily disproven. Yeah, 1032 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:22,120 Speaker 1: just generated by the sanest man in the world. Yeah, 1033 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,520 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out what the funny yeah, Madly, Yeah, 1034 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,640 Speaker 1: there we go. I mean it's it's also we should 1035 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:30,719 Speaker 1: I should note. I'm sure our regular listeners will caught 1036 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:32,920 Speaker 1: this if he listened. Like the Kellogg episodes, He's not 1037 00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,719 Speaker 1: inventing this stuff. He is when he talks about masturbation 1038 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:39,880 Speaker 1: in this way, he is actually like sharing mainstream medical conclusions, 1039 00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,680 Speaker 1: Like the mainstream of the medical establishment in this period 1040 00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:46,160 Speaker 1: broadly agrees with everything he said. Um so this is 1041 00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,840 Speaker 1: not like Biden. Pal isn't introducing this, although he is. 1042 00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,520 Speaker 1: It is unique that he is as like a youth 1043 00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,560 Speaker 1: group leader talking trying to talk about this so openly. 1044 00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 1: Now that passage I just read doesn't get published in 1045 00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,160 Speaker 1: the first boy Scout Manual. His publisher is like, wait 1046 00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:04,120 Speaker 1: a second, why are you talking about masturbating so much 1047 00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:07,520 Speaker 1: of this book? Um, I have some notes? Yeah, I 1048 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,120 Speaker 1: have some note is good? The whole section about about 1049 00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:19,000 Speaker 1: it coming jerking off. Maybe trim that down quick. It's 1050 00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:23,320 Speaker 1: going to affect book sales. Yeah, So they rework it 1051 00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,000 Speaker 1: to make this much vaguer, simply cautioning children not to 1052 00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,680 Speaker 1: touch themselves and noting that if they feel an urge 1053 00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,600 Speaker 1: to do so, this is critical quote, go to your 1054 00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,759 Speaker 1: father or your scout master and talk it over with him, 1055 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,880 Speaker 1: and all will come right. So that could be problematic 1056 00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:43,200 Speaker 1: right there. Yeah, having these children, If you want to masturbate, 1057 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,799 Speaker 1: go to your volunteer unvetted scout master and he'll teach 1058 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,960 Speaker 1: you how to come right. You can see this is 1059 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,399 Speaker 1: a situation which if the wrong kind of people become 1060 00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:56,840 Speaker 1: Scout masters, this could be a profoundly abusive situation. A 1061 00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:01,879 Speaker 1: lot of trust, a lot of trust in these scout masters. Probably, yes, yea, 1062 00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,640 Speaker 1: So it's here we should probably again discuss the sexuality 1063 00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:06,560 Speaker 1: of Robert Baden Powell in a little more detail. So 1064 00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:08,800 Speaker 1: again Tim gel is convinced that he was gay and 1065 00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:10,719 Speaker 1: the strongest piece of evidence for this is that when 1066 00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:12,960 Speaker 1: he was in the army, he falls madly in love 1067 00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,640 Speaker 1: with a young army officer, again, an adult named Kenneth McLaren, 1068 00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:19,640 Speaker 1: who he called the Boy. Now again, I don't know, 1069 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:21,600 Speaker 1: like we might have called I think I'm not sure 1070 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:23,560 Speaker 1: if Kenneth was like eighteen, but like he was, he 1071 00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:25,320 Speaker 1: was an officer in the army. He was an adult 1072 00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:27,480 Speaker 1: kind of by the standards of the time, right, Um, 1073 00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,680 Speaker 1: calling him the boy is just probably that's a term 1074 00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,720 Speaker 1: of endearment people who were like in their mid thirties. 1075 00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,600 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, those kids over there, Yeah, those fucking kids. Yeah, 1076 00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:42,960 Speaker 1: so it's probably fine. Yeah. Geal calls this Baden Powell's 1077 00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:46,440 Speaker 1: only close friendship in his entire life, like this is 1078 00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:48,840 Speaker 1: like a really unique relationship with him, which right there 1079 00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:52,280 Speaker 1: says something. The two bunked together, which also says something 1080 00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,680 Speaker 1: they vacation together, they exchanged gifts, and when the boy 1081 00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:58,080 Speaker 1: was captured by Bowers during the siege of maf King, 1082 00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,920 Speaker 1: Baden Powell had to be stopped from trying to rescue him. 1083 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,320 Speaker 1: Jeal calls this an emotionally homosexual relationship because there's no 1084 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,000 Speaker 1: actual evidence that these two funcked and again, given a 1085 00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:10,960 Speaker 1: lot of this is not an uncommon kind of relationship, 1086 00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,280 Speaker 1: maybe they did. That's also total I'm sure a lot 1087 00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:15,160 Speaker 1: of these guys that we just don't know if it 1088 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:17,920 Speaker 1: was just emotional or if they actually, like I'm sure 1089 00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:19,520 Speaker 1: a lot of them did and just couldn't say anything 1090 00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:22,240 Speaker 1: because you'd go to prison maybe, like I don't. But 1091 00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,360 Speaker 1: also that you can't overstate how repressed they are, like 1092 00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,760 Speaker 1: would they even have known? How? Like really would they 1093 00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:32,320 Speaker 1: even have known? How? You can't you can't entirely the 1094 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,360 Speaker 1: impulses because human beings are human beings are the same 1095 00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:37,920 Speaker 1: as they've always been. Their understanding of like ways in 1096 00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,080 Speaker 1: which to handle those impulses that is cultural and like 1097 00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,640 Speaker 1: it is you you can't entirely get in their heads 1098 00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,120 Speaker 1: just given the fact that like you know that, like 1099 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,080 Speaker 1: you know, like the basics of like how sodomy works, right, 1100 00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:52,080 Speaker 1: Like that that's like a thing you can do. Like 1101 00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,120 Speaker 1: who knows what these guys know? Um, it is true, 1102 00:58:55,240 --> 00:59:00,840 Speaker 1: like even straight British people are just edging at like 1103 00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,600 Speaker 1: like who knows what these people know about fucking kissing? 1104 00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:08,720 Speaker 1: Like like this is an incredibly repressed not just time, 1105 00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:11,240 Speaker 1: but like class, because these are the upper crust. These 1106 00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,520 Speaker 1: have only ever like I don't know what, I don't know. 1107 00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:16,800 Speaker 1: Like again, it's it's it's hard to get too much 1108 00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:20,560 Speaker 1: in anybody's head here because like, um, their understanding of 1109 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,360 Speaker 1: like what is possible in a relationship between two men 1110 00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:26,160 Speaker 1: physically is just at such a different level. There's no internet, 1111 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,560 Speaker 1: you know, not that there's not ways, there is pornography, 1112 00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:31,600 Speaker 1: there are like wait, Oscar Wilde exists in this period, 1113 00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:35,400 Speaker 1: Like it's not impossible to figure it out. There's some 1114 00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:38,080 Speaker 1: books on it. You can in fact figure this ship out. 1115 00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:41,320 Speaker 1: But I don't know what these guys knew. Um. And 1116 00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:44,360 Speaker 1: these are very common, you know, among kinds of the 1117 00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:48,480 Speaker 1: imperialist class who are actually like doing the ship overseas. Um. 1118 00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:50,920 Speaker 1: Biden Powe did get married kind of later in life. 1119 00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:52,960 Speaker 1: He had a couple of kids, but among other things, 1120 00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,640 Speaker 1: he was noted to regularly sleep outside on the porch 1121 00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,280 Speaker 1: because he couldn't bear to be near his wife. So 1122 00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:02,160 Speaker 1: again that it could because he's gay, it could be 1123 01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:06,920 Speaker 1: because she's just sucked. I don't know. I mean so 1124 01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,240 Speaker 1: like I've seen British people, it's just a yeah, it's 1125 01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:16,640 Speaker 1: an island full of Jesus Christ. Wow. Wow, every British 1126 01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:22,280 Speaker 1: person is ugly as except for like wow, Chris throw 1127 01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:24,680 Speaker 1: in three or four random bleeps in that sentence just 1128 01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:32,440 Speaker 1: to make it even even more mysterious. So Gill concludes 1129 01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,640 Speaker 1: that Biden Powell's intimate diaries reveal a revotion towards naked 1130 01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:38,920 Speaker 1: women and a fascination with naked male bodies. Quote from 1131 01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,760 Speaker 1: the book Scouts Honor. In his advice to boys, Biden 1132 01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:44,240 Speaker 1: Powell treated women as a hazard to be avoided, again 1133 01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,440 Speaker 1: not uncommon for the time. He mocked boys for girlitis 1134 01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:49,600 Speaker 1: if they paired off with young ladies, and wrote that 1135 01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,440 Speaker 1: young fellows are apt to excite their lust by talking 1136 01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:55,000 Speaker 1: about love or toying about with girls. But this is 1137 01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:58,400 Speaker 1: all bad for you, rovering for to success. One of 1138 01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,560 Speaker 1: his books for boys includes a apter titled Women, in 1139 01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,720 Speaker 1: which he warns about the rutting season, that time when 1140 01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,360 Speaker 1: a boy is growing to manhood and finds himself obsessed 1141 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,040 Speaker 1: by lust. He was writing about puberty, but compared it 1142 01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,000 Speaker 1: to an illness. He said it would last only a 1143 01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:14,560 Speaker 1: few months, sometimes a couple of years, and told boys 1144 01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:16,480 Speaker 1: to get over it, just as they would get over 1145 01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:23,360 Speaker 1: the measles or any other youthful complaint. Boy. An entire 1146 01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:28,080 Speaker 1: chapter just dedicated to talking about how girls have cooties. Yeah, 1147 01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,320 Speaker 1: and girls have cooties and you don't need to fuck 1148 01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:35,360 Speaker 1: yeah exactly. He noted, with remarkably little excitement, that most 1149 01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:37,840 Speaker 1: boys would get married at some point, and like he 1150 01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,320 Speaker 1: was kind of like, yeah, like you want to delay 1151 01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,560 Speaker 1: this as long as possible. You'll probably get married because 1152 01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:44,520 Speaker 1: it's the only way to carry out the creator's law, 1153 01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:47,600 Speaker 1: that is to make children. Right. But that's all that 1154 01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,760 Speaker 1: women are, Like, they're not a partner, they're not there's 1155 01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:54,479 Speaker 1: nothing attractive about this. It's just the only way. That's 1156 01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:59,080 Speaker 1: his attitude. Um, and yeah. He repeatedly stated that women's 1157 01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:01,680 Speaker 1: bodies were repellent, just as he wrote about how wonderfully 1158 01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:04,360 Speaker 1: made the bodies of young men and boys were. As 1159 01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:06,800 Speaker 1: the boy Scouts got off the ground, he engineered many 1160 01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:09,880 Speaker 1: opportunities to watch naked boys. Much of this happened at 1161 01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:12,760 Speaker 1: scout camps, where nude swimming was traditional. And this is 1162 01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,760 Speaker 1: normal in swimming in general, Like there's a lot of 1163 01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:19,200 Speaker 1: nude swimming in England. Um, but he liked this a lot. 1164 01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:22,200 Speaker 1: He repeatedly described naked boys at the swimming hole as 1165 01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:26,440 Speaker 1: a delightful sight, as yummy. This did start to like 1166 01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:28,080 Speaker 1: I said, this was kind of normal in the world. 1167 01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,040 Speaker 1: He grew up and it started to change in this period, 1168 01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:32,960 Speaker 1: and in fact, during this period the police in London 1169 01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:36,320 Speaker 1: band boys from swimming naked in Hyde Park Lake. Um 1170 01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:41,320 Speaker 1: Baden Powell is enraged by this and he writes, how 1171 01:02:42,920 --> 01:03:01,160 Speaker 1: my boy, he writes, fersct dog, I will build my 1172 01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:04,600 Speaker 1: own lake. And they were all women. A woman walks 1173 01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:06,600 Speaker 1: by in a in a long erson He's like, oh God, 1174 01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:16,040 Speaker 1: get that away from me. In human creature woman. He's 1175 01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:19,200 Speaker 1: probably he was as a younger man at least at 1176 01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:21,400 Speaker 1: least people at the time consider that everybody always gives 1177 01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:22,840 Speaker 1: me shit if they don't find like I'm just saying. 1178 01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:24,280 Speaker 1: People at the time wrote that he was, and in 1179 01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:26,160 Speaker 1: fact there are women at the time who right, he's 1180 01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,520 Speaker 1: very handsome, but women like he seems to have no 1181 01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:33,120 Speaker 1: interest in women like other people note this about him, yeah, 1182 01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:35,360 Speaker 1: and also some of his like if you look at 1183 01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:36,880 Speaker 1: into like this guy, I don't see why people would 1184 01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:39,480 Speaker 1: find this handsome. He's a war hero, which has an 1185 01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:43,600 Speaker 1: impact on people. Um So when the police in London 1186 01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:46,360 Speaker 1: band boys from swimming naked in Hyde Park Lake. Baden 1187 01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:52,240 Speaker 1: Powe writes a column for Scout magazine suggesting that Scout 1188 01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:56,280 Speaker 1: masters quote educate the boy by encouraging his self expression 1189 01:03:56,320 --> 01:04:01,200 Speaker 1: instead of disciplining him by police methods of repression. It's 1190 01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:05,320 Speaker 1: because it's self expression is naked bathing. Yeah, I mean 1191 01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:08,600 Speaker 1: there's like part of me where it's just like, you know, 1192 01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:13,200 Speaker 1: it's it's ridiculous to, you know, penalize people for skin 1193 01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:15,520 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to arrest to someone for skinny dipping. 1194 01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:20,160 Speaker 1: But like, you're not coming at this from a holy place, Robert, 1195 01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:26,520 Speaker 1: He's not at all about self expression. No, no, well 1196 01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:36,280 Speaker 1: there goes my fucking shotter day. I was gonna put 1197 01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:38,760 Speaker 1: on my loosest pants and walk down to hide bark. 1198 01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:53,200 Speaker 1: I got a plate everything. So he's just a crab. 1199 01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:56,880 Speaker 1: This is what gets him. A cat's then bringing out 1200 01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:03,840 Speaker 1: bathing suits for the boys on the Mommies. So one 1201 01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:07,880 Speaker 1: of one of Baden Pale's friends at this time is 1202 01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:11,640 Speaker 1: a teacher named A. H. Todd. H Todd's hobby was 1203 01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:15,360 Speaker 1: taking pictures of nude boys. He called them figure studies. 1204 01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,600 Speaker 1: But the library he donated his album too after his 1205 01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:21,800 Speaker 1: death destroyed all of these photographs in the nineteen sixties 1206 01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:25,440 Speaker 1: to quote protect Todd's reputation, because these pictures were not 1207 01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:31,960 Speaker 1: in fact artistic figure studies. They were child pornography. Um 1208 01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:35,960 Speaker 1: gal I think fall short of calling them child porn. 1209 01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:38,160 Speaker 1: But he does note that the poses of the nude 1210 01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:41,480 Speaker 1: boys and these photos were quote contrived and artificial, And 1211 01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:43,640 Speaker 1: he notes that they're artificial and contrived in the same 1212 01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:45,600 Speaker 1: way as the poses of naked women at the time 1213 01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:48,760 Speaker 1: that were sold as art. But we're really softcore pornography, right. 1214 01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:51,360 Speaker 1: Porn you couldn't get, but you could get these art 1215 01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:54,960 Speaker 1: photos that were based that functioned as born That's kind 1216 01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,120 Speaker 1: of what this guy is doing. But for little boy, well, 1217 01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:59,760 Speaker 1: I think they're like young boys at least certainly definitely 1218 01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:01,800 Speaker 1: drind of some store. I don't know the exact atrians. 1219 01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,600 Speaker 1: In all cases, Baden Pale spent quite a lot of 1220 01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:07,200 Speaker 1: time with Todd. In nineteen nineteen, he stayed at the 1221 01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:10,720 Speaker 1: man's home and wrote Todd's photos of naked boys and trees, 1222 01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:22,560 Speaker 1: etcetera excellent. He has people swimming in ponds, he has 1223 01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:25,440 Speaker 1: a boy playing with himself, he has a bag, he 1224 01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:28,000 Speaker 1: has fruit sitting on a table he has two boys 1225 01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:33,160 Speaker 1: playing with himselfs oh god. So he goes to hang 1226 01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:34,720 Speaker 1: out with todd for a night or two and he 1227 01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:37,800 Speaker 1: looks at his his his picture book, and he immediately 1228 01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:39,800 Speaker 1: as soon as he gets home, he sends Toddle a 1229 01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:43,000 Speaker 1: letter asking if he can visit again, and noting, possibly 1230 01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:45,880 Speaker 1: I might get a further look at those wonderful photographs 1231 01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:54,600 Speaker 1: of yours. It's pretty fucked up. Christ. Yeah, Oh my god, 1232 01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:58,280 Speaker 1: I'm imagining that dude sliding into people's d m s 1233 01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:02,240 Speaker 1: because sometimes on Twitter, just see like people will post 1234 01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:06,040 Speaker 1: screen caps of of like thirsty dudes sliding into other 1235 01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:09,520 Speaker 1: d m s, and it sounds very similar. Do I 1236 01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:11,960 Speaker 1: have to be a subscriber to only fans to see 1237 01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:16,200 Speaker 1: the little Boy pictures? Again? Yeah? And again, there's no 1238 01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:20,440 Speaker 1: evidence or even allegations whatsoever that Robert baden Pell himself 1239 01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:23,480 Speaker 1: assaulted any boys. Um. I think there was a lot 1240 01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:26,560 Speaker 1: of gross lasciviousness going on. I think there's evidence he 1241 01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:30,480 Speaker 1: enjoyed child pornography. I don't think he physically. Again, I 1242 01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:32,280 Speaker 1: don't know that he ever had sex other than the 1243 01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:35,320 Speaker 1: three times necessary with his wife to conceive children. Um, 1244 01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:39,000 Speaker 1: because he was a repressed motherfucker. So like right, Um, 1245 01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,680 Speaker 1: in this case, maybe that was good because it doesn't 1246 01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:44,840 Speaker 1: it seems likely he never personally abused any boys. Yeah, 1247 01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:49,040 Speaker 1: it seems like like with repression, you know, it's it's 1248 01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,760 Speaker 1: largely bad except in very few except for maybe in 1249 01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:56,240 Speaker 1: this case it helped out. But although not really because 1250 01:07:56,280 --> 01:08:00,320 Speaker 1: while he personally probably didn't, I can obviously category orically 1251 01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:04,400 Speaker 1: say anything. Um. He absolutely encouraged the nudity of young boys. 1252 01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:07,720 Speaker 1: He also in Scouts, and he encouraged those young boys 1253 01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:11,200 Speaker 1: to go to their Scout masters to discuss sex, nakedness 1254 01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:14,560 Speaker 1: and masturbation. A not insignificant number of those men turned 1255 01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:17,280 Speaker 1: out to be child molesters, and how Robert Baden Powell 1256 01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:21,479 Speaker 1: dealt with those men was telling. Scouting rapidly grew larger. 1257 01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:24,120 Speaker 1: It became an international organization like a decade or so. 1258 01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:26,519 Speaker 1: It spreads all over the world. It gets very big, 1259 01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:29,280 Speaker 1: very quickly. This brought up a need for an ever 1260 01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:32,599 Speaker 1: expanding pool of men to work as Scout masters. These 1261 01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:35,600 Speaker 1: were volunteers, unpaid volunteers, which is quite a lot of 1262 01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:37,840 Speaker 1: work to ask if someone who has no ulterior motives 1263 01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:40,640 Speaker 1: for doing the job. Right, My scout masters were just 1264 01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:42,920 Speaker 1: like really nice people who who loved the outdoors and 1265 01:08:42,960 --> 01:08:44,599 Speaker 1: wanted to teach kids. I don't think there's ever been 1266 01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:47,439 Speaker 1: any allegations against them. I certainly never experienced anything. Those 1267 01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:50,840 Speaker 1: people are happen um. But also there are people who 1268 01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:52,600 Speaker 1: joined the Boy Scouts because like, oh, I can be 1269 01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:54,680 Speaker 1: alone with a lot of naked boys and I can 1270 01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:59,200 Speaker 1: do things. You know, that is a major thing happening now. Again, 1271 01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:02,400 Speaker 1: as propresses the time was, people are not ignorant of 1272 01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:04,800 Speaker 1: the fact that there are child molesters in the world. 1273 01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:08,040 Speaker 1: There are people within the Boy Scouts and within like 1274 01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:09,880 Speaker 1: the government who are like interface with the Voice Outs, 1275 01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:11,840 Speaker 1: who recognized this as a risk, who see what Biden 1276 01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:14,880 Speaker 1: pals are like, well, if the wrong person became a 1277 01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:17,800 Speaker 1: Scout master, he could really hurt a lot of boys. Um. 1278 01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:19,960 Speaker 1: And they go to Baiden Powell and they're like, the 1279 01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:21,639 Speaker 1: Boy Scouts need to set up a way to screen 1280 01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:23,800 Speaker 1: volunteers in order to protect kids. We have to have 1281 01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:26,720 Speaker 1: something right. We have to attempt to stop people who 1282 01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:30,679 Speaker 1: might hurt these kids. And crucially, Robert Baden Powell said 1283 01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:33,479 Speaker 1: no quote and this is from a letter he wrote, 1284 01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:35,720 Speaker 1: I don't think we ought to make the test of 1285 01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:39,400 Speaker 1: Scout masters too stringent for fear of putting them off again. 1286 01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:41,840 Speaker 1: It's expanding rapidly. It can only expand as much as 1287 01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:44,599 Speaker 1: there are adult volunteers. He doesn't want to He doesn't 1288 01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:47,400 Speaker 1: want to slow the expansion of the organization by making 1289 01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:52,280 Speaker 1: sure that there are pedophiles in the rings. And obviously, 1290 01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:54,640 Speaker 1: how do you do a pedophile test? Though you know, 1291 01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:57,560 Speaker 1: even if he had cared, I'm sure it would have 1292 01:09:57,680 --> 01:09:59,720 Speaker 1: it would have fallen short people and it was a 1293 01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:01,160 Speaker 1: net able. And this is the kind of thing. The 1294 01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:04,800 Speaker 1: Voice Scouts are not evil because some men who got 1295 01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:07,519 Speaker 1: into the organization mollisted kids. That in an organization that 1296 01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:09,640 Speaker 1: it is peak has like seven million kids, some of 1297 01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:12,040 Speaker 1: the adult volunteers are going to molest some of those kids. 1298 01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:15,160 Speaker 1: That is inevitable, just it's scaled. It in a town 1299 01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:18,280 Speaker 1: of seven million people, some of the adults will molest children. 1300 01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:22,320 Speaker 1: That is inevitable. That is not doesn't mean the organizations evil. 1301 01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:24,519 Speaker 1: What is evil is the way that they deal with it, 1302 01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:26,320 Speaker 1: or rather fail to deal with it. And that his 1303 01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:28,960 Speaker 1: evil is that like again, if he had attempted to 1304 01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:32,040 Speaker 1: screen for this and just failed, that would been like, 1305 01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:34,160 Speaker 1: well he tried and what like yeah, how could you? 1306 01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:36,519 Speaker 1: How do you screen for this? Right? This is an 1307 01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:39,800 Speaker 1: ongoing conversation we as a civilization continue to have. The 1308 01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:42,280 Speaker 1: problem is not that he failed in screening them. The 1309 01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:44,280 Speaker 1: problem is, like, I don't think screening is a good 1310 01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:46,519 Speaker 1: idea because it's going to slow down our expansion. Right, 1311 01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:50,919 Speaker 1: that's the issue. Um, sound now like an imperialist mindset 1312 01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:54,599 Speaker 1: and I love Yeah exactly, Yeah, yeah, it's all about 1313 01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:58,120 Speaker 1: that growth. Yep. Now, the fact that damn near any 1314 01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,720 Speaker 1: adult man could become a Scout man master becomes an 1315 01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:03,759 Speaker 1: issue as the organization ages and expands. In a nineteen 1316 01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:07,840 Speaker 1: book about Scouting in British schools, one headmaster said quote, 1317 01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:10,519 Speaker 1: one of the weak spots in the Scout movement generally, 1318 01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:12,600 Speaker 1: it seems to me, is that there is no guarantee 1319 01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:15,559 Speaker 1: of the capacity or character of the scout master. Any 1320 01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:18,120 Speaker 1: man or callow youth could get together a number of boys, 1321 01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:20,639 Speaker 1: formed them into a Scout troop and become their scout master, 1322 01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,360 Speaker 1: and there was no safeguard whatsoever against his being a 1323 01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:26,639 Speaker 1: man of most pernicious influence. So again, when we talk 1324 01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:29,639 Speaker 1: about like damning people by the standards of their time, 1325 01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:33,080 Speaker 1: people raise the alarm from the beginning of the Boy Scouts, 1326 01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:35,320 Speaker 1: people are telling Robert Baden Powell, you were not being 1327 01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:37,840 Speaker 1: careful enough with these boys, and he does not listen. 1328 01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:42,360 Speaker 1: These concerns proved absolutely valid within biden Pal's lifetime. In 1329 01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:45,160 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty three, a Scout master was caught molesting a 1330 01:11:45,240 --> 01:11:47,679 Speaker 1: boy at the camp that Baden But like Baden Pal's camp, 1331 01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:50,000 Speaker 1: he gets sentenced. He gets caught by the police and 1332 01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:52,880 Speaker 1: he is sentenced to three years in prison. Now, when 1333 01:11:52,960 --> 01:11:55,280 Speaker 1: this had this big story, obviously right like this gets out. 1334 01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:57,640 Speaker 1: This isn't like hushed up. And biden Pal writes a 1335 01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:00,439 Speaker 1: column in The Scouter, which is like the adult Boy Scout. 1336 01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:02,880 Speaker 1: It's a magazine for the adult leaders within the Boy Scouts. 1337 01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:06,320 Speaker 1: And in this column he is effusive in his condemnation 1338 01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:08,280 Speaker 1: of the man. He noted that if the law had 1339 01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:10,639 Speaker 1: let him, he would have punished the man by flogging. 1340 01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:13,960 Speaker 1: In the same article, he correctly notes that the abuse 1341 01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:16,519 Speaker 1: of these children by the Scout master was a failure 1342 01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:19,400 Speaker 1: of the Boy Scouts to honor their grave responsibility of 1343 01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:22,519 Speaker 1: ensuring the safety of boys, But at the same time 1344 01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:25,800 Speaker 1: he describes the sexual abuse of a child by a 1345 01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:30,080 Speaker 1: Scout master as a man going too far in quote sentimentalism, 1346 01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:37,480 Speaker 1: what the fuck? What the fuck? Indeed? That what the fuck? Indeed, 1347 01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:41,120 Speaker 1: I think that is him covertly acknowledging, Yes, a number 1348 01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:43,439 Speaker 1: of us are attracted to the boys, but you don't 1349 01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:48,600 Speaker 1: touch them. I think the reality is like it is. 1350 01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:52,000 Speaker 1: There's a very complicated conversation to have about people who 1351 01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:56,320 Speaker 1: are attracted to children and do not molest them. But 1352 01:12:56,439 --> 01:12:58,439 Speaker 1: I think one thing that is clear is that if 1353 01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:01,560 Speaker 1: you are that kind of person, is it is imperative 1354 01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:03,560 Speaker 1: that you do everything in your power to not go 1355 01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:07,200 Speaker 1: anywhere in your children, Like don't like like, that's that's critical. 1356 01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:09,880 Speaker 1: Don't fucking near kids. If you're attracted kid, If you 1357 01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:11,719 Speaker 1: don't want to be a monster, you're not a monster 1358 01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:13,280 Speaker 1: just because you grow up with like this thing in 1359 01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:15,840 Speaker 1: your fucking head. As long as you don't put yourself 1360 01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:17,920 Speaker 1: in a position where you're going to hurt anybody, right, yeah, 1361 01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:21,240 Speaker 1: I mean you know, just that, make that your number 1362 01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:25,000 Speaker 1: one priority. Um, yeah, not being near fucking kids, right 1363 01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:29,360 Speaker 1: right above eating and drinking. Yeah, and stay away from 1364 01:13:29,439 --> 01:13:34,640 Speaker 1: children children, brush your teeth, yeah. Yeah. And Biden pal 1365 01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:36,000 Speaker 1: is being like, well, of course, it's fine that a 1366 01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:37,880 Speaker 1: lot of us are attracted to the boys, but this 1367 01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:40,479 Speaker 1: guy went too far and his sentimentalism, which reveals a 1368 01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:46,760 Speaker 1: tremendous amount about him. Right yeah, So, as the book 1369 01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:49,480 Speaker 1: Scouts on Or notes, Biden pal was even more problematic 1370 01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:52,000 Speaker 1: in his attitudes towards the sexual assault of boys in 1371 01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:55,120 Speaker 1: his care during his private conversations than he wasn't again 1372 01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:59,000 Speaker 1: this public column in a doctor named Patterson was put 1373 01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:01,680 Speaker 1: in charge of the main camping field at Gilwell, which 1374 01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:04,919 Speaker 1: is the first and chief Scout camp. So Dr Patterson 1375 01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:06,680 Speaker 1: is responsible for the health of all these boys. He 1376 01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:08,840 Speaker 1: sleeps in a medical hut that's near the field where 1377 01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:11,000 Speaker 1: the boys camp, so he can be near the boys 1378 01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:13,120 Speaker 1: to watch over them. Because he's again he's the doctor. 1379 01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:17,240 Speaker 1: He was extremely trusted. For years. Mothers would often write 1380 01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:19,840 Speaker 1: to Lord Baden Powell asking if he could pare their 1381 01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:22,320 Speaker 1: sons with Dr Patterson so he could talk to them 1382 01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:24,840 Speaker 1: about sex, and Robert would send them to Patterson right 1383 01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:27,200 Speaker 1: like they would be like, my son, I'm a single mom, 1384 01:14:27,280 --> 01:14:28,800 Speaker 1: my son needs a man to talk to about sex, 1385 01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:30,800 Speaker 1: and like I'll send them to the doctor, which, again, 1386 01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:33,599 Speaker 1: on the surface, if this guy isn't a child molester, 1387 01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:36,280 Speaker 1: perfectly reasonable. Like a boy asked questions about sex. Send 1388 01:14:36,360 --> 01:14:40,280 Speaker 1: him to the doctor. Doctor right right, here's the problem. 1389 01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:46,040 Speaker 1: Dude's a child molester. In August nineteen, several boys complained 1390 01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:50,080 Speaker 1: that Dr. Patterson had given them painfully thorough physical examinations 1391 01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:53,479 Speaker 1: at night in his medical hut. An investigation commenced, and 1392 01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:56,800 Speaker 1: Baden Powell allowed Patterson to be quietly fired rather than 1393 01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:59,200 Speaker 1: going to the authorities or taking any kind of punitive 1394 01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:01,640 Speaker 1: action beyond kicking him out. So they do not go 1395 01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:03,360 Speaker 1: to the police. They do not make this a criminal 1396 01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:05,760 Speaker 1: matter because they don't want this to blow up. This 1397 01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,519 Speaker 1: is the first time that happens. This is will become 1398 01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:10,479 Speaker 1: the pattern for more than a century of the Voice 1399 01:15:10,479 --> 01:15:13,719 Speaker 1: Scouts of America. It is established by Robert Baden Powell. 1400 01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:18,759 Speaker 1: Um Now again, when cases of sexual abuse did go public, 1401 01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:21,280 Speaker 1: as that one did in that we talked about earlier, 1402 01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:24,320 Speaker 1: Baden Powe was very loud in public about decrying the abuse. 1403 01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:28,479 Speaker 1: But as the book Scouts Honor notes, however, Patterson's successor 1404 01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:30,880 Speaker 1: the doctor who follows after he gets quietly pushed out, 1405 01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:34,719 Speaker 1: HD Burne, proved to be no different. After a decade 1406 01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:37,599 Speaker 1: in charge of the camping field, someone picked up quote 1407 01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:40,080 Speaker 1: a fat diary and Burns room and discovered it to 1408 01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:44,559 Speaker 1: be filled with detailed descriptions of sexual encounters with boys. He, too, 1409 01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:48,720 Speaker 1: was dismissed quietly. Geal Rights Headquarters evidently preferred not to 1410 01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:51,080 Speaker 1: let it be known that for almost fifteen years, the 1411 01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:54,160 Speaker 1: one job in the movement requiring men of unimpeachable integrity 1412 01:15:54,360 --> 01:16:01,519 Speaker 1: had been occupied by a succession of active petterists. God, well, yeah, 1413 01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:07,680 Speaker 1: the whole section of them. Huh yeah, that's that's that's 1414 01:16:07,720 --> 01:16:12,120 Speaker 1: a grip. That's a grip of periss that's too many pederists, 1415 01:16:12,120 --> 01:16:13,920 Speaker 1: I think I would say one probably too man. But 1416 01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:17,280 Speaker 1: again and again, to be fairy, the evil is not 1417 01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:19,920 Speaker 1: that like a pedophile, especially in a new organization, wound 1418 01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:21,800 Speaker 1: up in a position and heard boys. It's that their 1419 01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:24,840 Speaker 1: answer to it was to hide it and then promote 1420 01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:27,760 Speaker 1: another pedophile to that position, because they don't take any 1421 01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:30,920 Speaker 1: care to actually screen these fucking people. And again, if 1422 01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:35,040 Speaker 1: they're screening had been imperfect, at least, what's the thing 1423 01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:37,439 Speaker 1: that happens? At least they tried, they didn't, and there 1424 01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:40,439 Speaker 1: Biden Pale's instinct was to try to cover it up 1425 01:16:40,479 --> 01:16:42,400 Speaker 1: and not to punish these people, to treat it as 1426 01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:46,000 Speaker 1: a moral slip rather than an act of profound evil. 1427 01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:48,799 Speaker 1: That is how he seems like, as these men slipped, 1428 01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:53,760 Speaker 1: It's like, no, no, they abused children. Firing them, it's 1429 01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:56,920 Speaker 1: not a slip. You showed up late to work twice. Yeah, 1430 01:16:57,120 --> 01:16:59,800 Speaker 1: it's like, no, it's not. This is not a firing thing. 1431 01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:05,360 Speaker 1: This is a These people need to be removed from society. Things. 1432 01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:08,040 Speaker 1: They have harmed children, the worst thing you can do. 1433 01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:14,679 Speaker 1: Some justice needs to be served. Yeah. Yeah. The founder 1434 01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:17,160 Speaker 1: of the Boy Scouts would die in nineteen forty one, 1435 01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:20,040 Speaker 1: but the patterns he established would follow the organization as 1436 01:17:20,080 --> 01:17:22,479 Speaker 1: it aged. They are, in brief, an avowed refusal to 1437 01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:25,280 Speaker 1: properly check the men who volunteered to watch over boys, 1438 01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:28,720 Speaker 1: a willingness to overlook problematic behavior, and a commitment to 1439 01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:32,519 Speaker 1: hiding the cases of abuse that they are forced to acknowledge. So, 1440 01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:38,880 Speaker 1: oh fuck. We're going to talk, yeah, in part two 1441 01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:40,920 Speaker 1: about the modern b ESA. But it is just very 1442 01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:43,160 Speaker 1: important to note that everything we'll be talking about in 1443 01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:45,479 Speaker 1: part two, that stuff that goes up to two fifteen 1444 01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:48,800 Speaker 1: two right now, really starts with Baden Powell. This is 1445 01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:52,400 Speaker 1: not a case of a man founding a beautiful organization 1446 01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:57,120 Speaker 1: that later people fail on from the beginning, everything problematic 1447 01:17:57,240 --> 01:17:59,240 Speaker 1: that has led to mass sexual assaults in the Boy 1448 01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:02,760 Speaker 1: Scouts was present from its founding. Yeah, I mean, you know, 1449 01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:06,800 Speaker 1: it's founded by a guy who kind of wanted to kids, 1450 01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:10,320 Speaker 1: kind of wanted to kids. Uh, you know that's a 1451 01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:12,519 Speaker 1: recipe for disaster. That's a little bit of a Yeah, 1452 01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:16,080 Speaker 1: it's not great, not great. Probably again, I had a 1453 01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:18,439 Speaker 1: great time in Boy Scouts. I think an organization with 1454 01:18:18,520 --> 01:18:23,280 Speaker 1: the broad goal of teaching kids self reliance and survival 1455 01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:26,960 Speaker 1: in the woods is wonder and absolutely necessary. I think 1456 01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:29,280 Speaker 1: damn near a hundred percent of kids can benefit from 1457 01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:32,640 Speaker 1: something like that. Probably shouldn't be founded and formed by 1458 01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:35,479 Speaker 1: a succession of pedophiles. Probably a bad idea, Probably a 1459 01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:39,519 Speaker 1: bad idea. My note on the Boy Scouts less pedophiles. Yeah, 1460 01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:43,840 Speaker 1: if I had one, like four star Yelp review, everything's good, 1461 01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:48,320 Speaker 1: But the the pedophiles and perpetuating pedophilia throughout the United 1462 01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:52,080 Speaker 1: States and the world is Yeah. Yeah, it's one of 1463 01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:53,640 Speaker 1: those things. I'm sure there are people who be like, 1464 01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:55,360 Speaker 1: why didn't you do the Catholic Church. We have talked 1465 01:18:55,400 --> 01:18:57,320 Speaker 1: about the Catholic Church a couple of times, including like 1466 01:18:57,479 --> 01:18:59,600 Speaker 1: the all of the horrible abuses in the of the 1467 01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:02,960 Speaker 1: the residential schools in Ireland and whatnot. But like, one 1468 01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:04,960 Speaker 1: of the things that is worth noting here is that, 1469 01:19:05,040 --> 01:19:06,800 Speaker 1: like when you talk about the pedophilia problem in the 1470 01:19:06,840 --> 01:19:10,200 Speaker 1: Boy Scouts, it's on the same scale as the Catholic Church, Like, 1471 01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:13,360 Speaker 1: at least in modern times, right, Catholic Church goes back 1472 01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:18,840 Speaker 1: a lot, Like we're talking again at the present time, 1473 01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:22,080 Speaker 1: at least a hundred thousand alleged victims just to have 1474 01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:24,640 Speaker 1: come forward in a couple of years, Like we're this 1475 01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:27,800 Speaker 1: is an enormous scale of problem. Like this is not 1476 01:19:28,040 --> 01:19:29,599 Speaker 1: We're not talking about a kid hearing a kid here, 1477 01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:32,439 Speaker 1: We're talking about cities full of children who were molested 1478 01:19:32,479 --> 01:19:36,120 Speaker 1: by their Scout masters and other adult leaders. Fun cool, 1479 01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:41,640 Speaker 1: it's a fun, fun time. So, Matt, this seems like 1480 01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:43,599 Speaker 1: a good time to ask if you've got any pluggables 1481 01:19:43,680 --> 01:19:48,920 Speaker 1: to plug. Oh sure, dude, Yeah, not totally. I do 1482 01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:52,720 Speaker 1: UH to podcasts Pod Yourself a Gun a Sopranos podcast 1483 01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:55,720 Speaker 1: which UH is about the Sopranos, and we go through 1484 01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:58,439 Speaker 1: an episode by episode, me and Vince Fancini, And then 1485 01:19:58,479 --> 01:20:02,400 Speaker 1: we also do UM a film podcast where we just 1486 01:20:02,439 --> 01:20:04,200 Speaker 1: shoot the ship kind of talk about movies called the 1487 01:20:04,240 --> 01:20:07,479 Speaker 1: film Drunk Frodcast, So check those out. We rarely talk 1488 01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:12,120 Speaker 1: about pedophilia, but you know, it's still fun. It's still 1489 01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:15,000 Speaker 1: fun time, So check those out and follow me on 1490 01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:19,919 Speaker 1: Instagram at matt leap Jokes. Yeah, follow him on Instagram 1491 01:20:20,040 --> 01:20:23,280 Speaker 1: at matt Leap Jokes. And follow your heart unless your 1492 01:20:23,280 --> 01:20:26,519 Speaker 1: heart says to create an organization for boys and have 1493 01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:29,000 Speaker 1: them swim naked in the field so that you can 1494 01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:32,120 Speaker 1: watch them. Um, then don't follow your heart. Maybe listen 1495 01:20:32,200 --> 01:20:34,920 Speaker 1: to a single fucking word your heart says. Move if 1496 01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:37,400 Speaker 1: that's If that's what your heart says, move alone to 1497 01:20:37,479 --> 01:20:42,479 Speaker 1: the woods. Yeah like friends like a bear and bear. 1498 01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:44,559 Speaker 1: Fine to make friends with a bear in that case, 1499 01:20:44,720 --> 01:20:51,280 Speaker 1: Yeah they can fight back. Yeah yeah, oh boy, Okay,