WEBVTT - #151 Jason Flom with Kristine Bunch 0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:04.960 In the summer of nineteen ninety five, twenty one year 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:07.680 old single mom Christine Bunch was living in a trailer 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.200 in Greensburg, Indiana, with her three year old son Tony. 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.720 In the early morning hours of July thirtieth, an electrical 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:18.080 fire began between the roof and the ceiling tiles. When 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:20.680 the fire caused one of the ceiling tiles to fall 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:24.720 in Tony's bedroom, a cloud of carbon monoxide gas killed 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:28.600 the little boy before the fire even could. Christine awoke 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.200 in a carbon monoxide haze, desperately trying to save Tony. 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.240 After failed attempts at extinguishing the fire, she ran for help. 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.560 Then she smashed Tony's bedroom window, but it was too late. 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:47.400 She was barefoot, homeless, and deep in despair. Arson investigator 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:51.040 Brian Frank used what is widely now known as junk 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:55.480 science to point the blame for Tony's death squarely at Christine. 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.880 So six days after losing her three year old boy 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.840 and nearly everything she ever had, Christine lost her freedom 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:07.240 as well. With no potential alibi or eyewitnesses, the state 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:11.560 easily sealed Christine's fate with the testimony of Brian Frank 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:16.039 and ATF forensic analyst William Cannard. Christine gave birth to 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:18.720 her son, Trent, just a few months after being sent 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:22.039 to prison and a decade passed before her attorney and 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:24.760 a team from the Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:29.800 University uncovered an egregious Brady violation and blatantly false testimony, 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:35.119 freeing Christine after seventeen years, one month, and sixteen days 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:55.480 behind bars. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flauber. Welcome 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.760 back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason flaum That's me, of course, 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:01.680 and today you're going to hear story that's as heartbreaking 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:05.800 and tragic as it was preventable, and it's a remarkable 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:08.880 look inside the systemic flaws as well as human errors 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:13.360 that lead to wrongful convictions. And in this particular case, 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.160 we're going to be telling the story and hearing the 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:20.600 story of one of my absolute favorite human beings, a 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:24.280 personal hero of mine, who is doing amazing, amazing things 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.560 in the world right now, today and every day. And 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:31.680 so I am thrilled and honored to have with us 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:34.000 on the show today, Christine. 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.120 Bunch, Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.160 And with Christine as someone whose name you'll probably recognize, 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:43.320 Ron Safer. Ron is a former US attorney turned corporate 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:47.800 lawyer turned justice fighter, and you'll recognize him because he 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:51.359 was a huge part of the exoneration of Julie Ray, 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.480 an episode that I'll never forget, and I hope if 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:56.320 you haven't heard it, that you'll go back and take 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.160 a listen. Anyway, Ron, welcome. 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.560 Back to be here. Thank you, Jason. 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:05.000 So let's get right into it. Christine, you grew up 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:06.839 in Indiana, right, I did. 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.520 Things took a crazy turn when my parents divorced, but 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:14.400 for the most part I was happy and it was good. 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:20.720 Now at the time of this unimaginable tragedy, you were 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:24.160 just a young mother living in a trailer, working hard, 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.120 going to school, just starting your life, just twenty one 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:28.119 years old, right. 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:28.800 That's correct. 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:32.079 I was working and going to school, and I had 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.079 a beautiful three year old son named Tony. 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:38.320 And then the worst nightmare that any parent can possibly 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.600 have or wake up to in a cold sweat, and 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:43.680 some of us probably have had that experience, but it 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.800 actually happened to you. And Ron, can you tell us 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:51.360 about that awful morning of June thirtieth, nineteen ninety five. 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:56.640 What happened was Christine and Tony had gone to sleep 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:00.480 together on a couch in the living room area of 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:05.720 the trailer. Before Christine woke up, Tony had moved to 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:08.440 the front room, which was a separate room from the 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:17.240 living room. Christine awoke to a sound and a small fire. 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:24.240 She was disoriented, but she saw the small fire and 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:28.160 she tried to put it out with a pillow and 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:32.680 couldn't do that, so she tried to smother the fire 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:38.239 with a blanket, and that didn't work either. Carbon monoxide 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:44.560 is intoxicating. Christine was undoubtedly affected by this carbon monoxide. 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:48.760 She's trying to put out the fire. She can't find 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.880 the fire extinguisher. She knows where the fire extinguisher is, 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:57.000 she can't find it. So by that time, the fire 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:01.360 had grown into a wall her and Tony, and she 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.960 could not get to him. So she frantically went out 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:08.200 of the trailer, tried to get help, and then tried 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.520 to break the window into the front room so that 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:15.360 she could get to Tony, but it was too late, 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:17.560 and Tony had perished. 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:23.039 It's impossible to even conceive of the horror and the 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:25.720 panic in a time like that, Even if you didn't 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:29.359 have kids like waking up to a fire. Christine, what 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:33.120 are your memories of that awful night now twenty five 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:33.760 years ago. 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:36.760 I think the thing that sits with me the most 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:38.880 is it was just normal. 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:43.360 I came home from school, and I got Tony from 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:47.000 the babysitter, and we went home and we cooked, and 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.440 I think we watched some TV and did some laundry, 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.240 and we fell asleep. I'd read him a story and 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.400 he wasn't feeling really well, and we fell asleep on 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.920 the couch under the air conditioner. 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:02.960 And everything just seemed normal. 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.360 You didn't realize that you were going to wake up 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.960 in your whole world would be turned upside down. 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:11.000 Yeah. 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:16.159 I mean, your whole world was really destroyed at a 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:20.840 time when the community and the system should have been 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:26.719 coming to help you in every conceivable way. Instead, you 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.919 were exposed to and victimized by the worst that the 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:33.720 system and our society has to offer. And it's so 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:38.560 important that you're here now because this arson quote unquote 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.160 science that they used in order to frame you and 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:45.960 wrongfully convict you for a crime that never even happened 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:48.839 is something that we need to focus on because we 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:53.200 need awareness among everyone, because someday, you, the listener, may 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.480 find yourself on a jury and you may be presented 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.000 with this same sort of junk science. 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:07.200 Fire investigation was an apprentice art. There were what was 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:12.560 regarded as common knowledge and industry standards that were passed 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:19.240 down from generation to generation. Virtually none of those conventional 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:25.000 wisdom were true, and when tested by scientific principles, they 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:30.440 were all debunked. Unfortunately, that came too late for Christine. 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:35.200 And this starts with a fire investigator named Brian Frank. 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:39.320 So what Frank did was the day of this fire, 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:44.560 and keep in mind this trailer was completely incinerated. He 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:49.600 comes into the trailer and just plucks things out of 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:56.240 thin air. He says, Oh, this is a burn pattern 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:00.240 on the floor. That's evidence of a liquid with the 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:06.720 accelerant like gasoline. Ooh, there's a V pattern on the wall. 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:12.640 That is fire burns up in a V pattern. And therefore, 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:16.760 because there are two of these, there were two points 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:21.800 of origin. A normal accidental fire will have one point 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:25.560 of origin. Sometimes if a fire is intentionally set, it 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:30.080 will have two points of origin. Says oops, here the 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:35.960 fire burned down. That is a sign of a liquid accelerant. 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:39.960 For all of these reasons, I conclude this was not 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:45.080 an accidental fire. This was intentionally set because, as you 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:49.480 said at the beginning, Jason, unlike many crimes like a 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:54.400 robbery or a fraud or a murder, the question in 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:58.959 an arson is was a crime even committed? And upon 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:03.880 that threshold question rests the lives of hundreds of people, 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:05.640 including Christine. 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:11.080 Here's what's absolutely nuts is that to become a licensed 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:15.320 arson investigator, one who can testify in court, you can 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:20.920 take a forty hour correspondence course. It takes fifteen hundred 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.280 hours in some places to become a manicurist. You can't 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:27.440 get a barber's license in less than six months. The 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:31.800 idea that they've been relying on these charlatans you'd be 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:35.240 better off consulting with psychics or even just guessing. And 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.760 in Christine's case, there are so many other problems. Right, 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.320 there's a tunnel vision with holding of sculpatory evidence, there's 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:47.480 multiple incompetent investigators who pass themselves off as experts, and 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.760 then it goes downhill from there. So there you are 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:54.840 outside the house and in minutes, in moments, your life 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:58.000 has gone from a good life full of love and 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.480 hope to the worst imaginable scenario. 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:05.880 You're just in shock and you don't really believe what 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:09.319 people are telling you because they kept telling me, no, 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:12.280 you can't go in and know we couldn't get hit 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:15.040 him and know he's not alive. 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:19.360 And of course, as apparent, you don't want to believe that. 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.040 People on the outside want to look at. 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.800 It and say, well, if this was done differently, or 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:31.840 if you had acted this way. And I mean, for myself, 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:36.079 I have played it over and over and over and 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.320 over again in my mind. I still every day that 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:43.520 I wake up play it over in my mind, and 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:44.400 I don't. 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:48.559 Know how to come up with a different scenario. When 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:49.199 you're in that. 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:55.199 Moment and the terror paralyzes you, you don't know what 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.320 you would do. So it's easy to stand outside and 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:02.000 say this should have never happen, and somebody has to 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:02.959 be blamed. 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:08.000 Right, because the alternative is incomprehensible to most people, why 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:13.439 an innocent baby would be taken from us. Christine, six 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:19.360 days in hell, right, six days for you between the 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:22.200 fire and the loss of your child and the time 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.520 that you're arrested. What were those six days like? What 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:25.240 were you doing. 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:28.480 I went with my parents to. 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:35.640 Plan a funeral, and my mom and dad really went 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:39.679 through how the service was going to be, and I 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.080 just remember sitting there and crying, and then I told 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:47.640 him that I wanted a song played something that I, 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.240 you know, sang with Tony, and he said, we can 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:55.280 play whatever you want, and then I had to go 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:56.800 get clothes. 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:57.680 To her to a funeral. 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.960 At that time, I was still walking around barefoot because 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:07.959 I'd literally lost everything, and everybody was trying to comfort 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.559 you and give you advice, and it. 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:17.120 Just doesn't comfort you. So you feel more alone than 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.079 ever because you don't want to hurt their. 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:23.920 Feelings, but everything they're saying to you doesn't penetrate. 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:31.400 The police didn't help because they followed me everywhere I 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:37.240 went and talked to everybody after I left, and they 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:41.520 even showed up and my son's funeral and burial. 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.079 They came to me before I even got out of 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:46.960 the hospital and told me that it was an arson. 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.280 They literally wanted a list of all my family and friends, 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:53.040 anybody that could have possibly done it. 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:55.880 Then they come back to me and say, no, you're 0:12:56.160 --> 0:13:00.280 you're the person. You're under arrest for this, and in 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:01.120 a small town. 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.480 Once they make or and arrest and put a headline 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:09.720 on the paper in a small community, in that community's mind, 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:11.880 you're guilty. 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:17.280 So now you're arrested. How long were you held before 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:18.880 the trial? Were you able to bail out? 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:24.599 I was in there from July sixth to October mid October, 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.160 I bonded out on a fifty thousand dollars cash bond. 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:32.840 I tell my son Trent all the time that he's 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:37.520 the miracle that saved me. But when I got out, 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:41.320 I certainly didn't care if I lived or died, and 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:45.320 so I was drinking and doing a lot of self 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:51.880 medicating because I just didn't want to feel anymore. And 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.720 in the midst of that, I started getting sick and 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:57.560 that's when I discovered I was pregnant. 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:05.040 Yeah, and that's the worst possible scenario. Although now, as 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.320 you said, it turns out to be the thing that 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:11.080 saved you. And we'll get into more of that later. 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:16.280 But Ron, this trial is full of I mean again, 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.120 it's horseshit. The stuff that they were spewing from the stand. 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.280 It began with the prosecutor standing in front of the 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:27.440 jury and saying motive is not an element of the crime. 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:32.720 We don't have to prove motive. People tend not to 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:38.280 commit crimes for no reason. And of course they investigated 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:42.400 Christine and her motive for this crime, and they found 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:49.680 that she was a good, loving, carrying, wonderful mother and 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:55.720 that she and Tony had a beautiful relationship. Everybody said 0:14:55.720 --> 0:15:00.480 that universally, and so they're left with telling the jury, Okay, 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:06.800 Christine committed this horrific crime for no reason, but we 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:12.840 don't have to prove motive. Then their case depended one 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:19.200 hundred percent on this quote unquote expert testimony, because Christine 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:23.400 didn't set this fire, so of course nobody saw her 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.800 set the fire, nobody saw her prepare to set the fire, 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:31.200 nobody's heard her talk about setting the fire, nobody afterwards. 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:36.880 There was no physical evidence, no forensic evidence, nothing. Of course, 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:41.240 the trailer wasn't insured, she lost all of her possessions, 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.000 she lost, of course, the person who meant most to 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:47.760 her in the world. So they were left with this 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:55.400 expert testimony, these absurd fire investigation myths, which should have 0:15:55.560 --> 0:16:00.480 and could have been dispelled by a defense atturn or 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.960 competent defense expert. But there was something else that was 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:09.040 critical in this trial that would have been difficult for 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:10.800 a defense attorney to combat. 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:13.400 And I have to tell the audience that this critical 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.880 evidence becomes just as important later to prove in Christine's 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.960 innocence as it was in getting her convicted. But go ahead, Ron. 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:27.200 They took ten samples from the trailer, from the floor 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:29.960 of the trailer, from the carpet of the trailer, from 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:36.400 Christine's nightgown, and they tested it for various accelerants. There 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:41.720 was no gasoline. There was no inflammatory substance of any 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:46.360 kind on Christine's nightgown, even though they said that she 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:51.160 would splash this accelerant all around. But there were two 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.800 positive samples. And those samples, by the way, were given 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.320 to the Bureau of Alcohol to back on firearms atf 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:05.159 who federally investigates arson crimes and they have special laboratories, 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:11.960 and they did gas chromatography on these samples, and they 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:18.639 presented evidence at trial that there were two positive tests 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:24.320 for what they called a heavy petroleum distillant like jet 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:31.359 fuel or something else specifically not kerosene, and that was 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:37.440 found in the living room area and critically in the 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:42.440 front room, the room where Tony was found now there 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.800 is reason for there to be kerosene in the living 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:50.959 room because the prior owners of this trailer testified that 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.879 they had a kerosene heater and that they overfilled it 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:57.960 from time to time. Kerosene does not evaporate, and so 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.879 even from years before, there would be kerosene in the wood. 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:06.199 But there's no explanation for a heavy petroleum distolate like 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:12.960 jet fuel. And there is absolutely no innocent explanation for 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.359 there to be a heavy petroleum distolate in the front 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:22.600 room Tony's bedroom. And that was critical evidence that was 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:27.080 not refuted by the defense attorney. And on the strength 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:33.080 of that expert testimony of end these critical lab determinations, 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:35.720 Christine was convicted. 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:41.119 March fourth, nineteen ninety six, twenty two years old. Pregnant, 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.960 Christine is convicted of arson and murder. Less than a 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:51.040 month later, she's sentenced to two concurrent terms, sixty years 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.400 for murder and fifty years for arson. So how pregnant 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:56.919 were you, Christine at the time of this wrongful conviction 0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:59.920 And what the hell was it like giving birth behind ball? 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.800 I was almost six months pregnant. 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.520 The only thing they don't do to pregnant women is 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:12.440 make them wear the belly chain and the box because 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:17.439 the baby's not a prisoner. But with so many pregnant 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.280 women in there, you don't always get soft cuffs for 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:25.480 your feet. So I've got deep scars on the back 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:33.040 of my ankles from wearing those metal shackles. And then 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:36.919 when I finally went into labor, I didn't really know 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:38.760 that I was in labor because I was just having 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:43.040 a backache. So they took me to the infirmary and 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:44.560 couldn't find a heartbeat. 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:46.200 I lost it. 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:50.199 I started, you know, screaming at him, and so I 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:51.440 was handcuffed. 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.000 And shackle and taken out into an ambulance. 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.480 And when I got to the hospital, a doctor come 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.399 in and explained that I was having contractions and that's 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:03.199 why they could here the heartbeat. They determined that I 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:06.040 was going to have an emergency c section, so they 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.119 had cuffs and shackles came off, and I got a 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:11.840 metal cuff on my ankle in the log chain. 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.880 I got about thirty six hours with Trent. 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.320 And then I was transferred back to the facility and 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:22.440 my family took him home. 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.560 The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.760 of Rawfuel Conviction and of the Last Mile organization, which 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:40.000 provides business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:43.399 and permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.080 committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:51.480 organizations that are dedicated primarily to helping young people and students. 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.080 For more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:57.800 or the Last Mile Program, visit Pacersfoundation dot org or 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:04.920 the Lastmile dot org. This episode is sponsored by AIG, 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:09.280 a leading global insurance company, and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:12.840 and Garrison, a leading international law firm. The AIG pro 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:16.560 Bono Program provides free legal services and other support to 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:21.400 many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need, and recently 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.240 they announced that working to reform the criminal justice system 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:27.240 will become a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:31.640 Weiss has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:34.639 pro bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:38.200 our society and in support of the public interest, including 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:47.920 extensive work in the criminal justice area. So the good 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:51.040 news is that there is actually an equal or greater 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:54.960 number of heroes in this story. Than villains Betsy Marx, 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:59.400 Hillary po Rix, Jamie McAllister, and the other two actual 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:03.119 fire science to John Dehan and John Maluley, plus the 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:08.399 electrical engineer Richard Hanson. Then Karen Daniel and Jane Raley, 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:12.600 legends in the field were on your side. And of 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:17.040 course Ron himself, Ron Safer, I mean, the fucking cavalry 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:19.640 came in on this one, right. Can you talk now 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:24.000 about the process that led seventeen years later to Christine 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:25.080 finally coming home. 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:33.679 Yes, Christine pursued this tirelessly against all odds. Found a 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:39.360 wonderful local attorney, Hillary bo Rix, who believed in Christine 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:42.840 but really did not have the resources to take on 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:47.280 the awesome power of the state, and a supporter of Christine. 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:51.240 Wrote a letter to Northwestern Center on Wrongful Convictions, and 0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:57.000 Jane Rayley, along with Karen Daniel, took Christine's case and 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:02.520 they disassembled every piece of evidence the state put forward. 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:08.920 Karen and Jane assembled the world's experts on fire science, 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:13.960 not the myths of arson investigation, but on fire science 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:18.520 to prove first that everything the state said was wrong, 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:24.159 and then second that Christine was innocent, not beyond a 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:29.520 reasonable doubt. Beyond any doubt. So first they got a 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:34.119 former ATF agent and he testified that every one of 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:38.760 the myths that was used by the so called arson 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:43.439 investigator Brian Frank was wrong. A V pattern does not 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:46.680 indicate a point of origin. It indicates a point where 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:51.040 something burned against a wall. Fire burns down not because 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:55.199 of the liquid accelerant, but because it's seeking oxygen and 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:58.560 there was a hole in the trailer. So the burn 0:23:58.720 --> 0:24:02.880 patterns that Frank says indicated that there was a liquid 0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:07.159 accelerant have been disproved. Brian Frank said that the fire 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:11.080 was hotter because a liquid accelerant was used. That is 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:17.640 a myth. Controlled experiments prove that fire is no hotter. Indeed, 0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:22.640 the heat depends on what is being burnt. So chemistry 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:28.080 physics disproved every one of the pieces of evidence. But 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:32.119 there was one more critical thing that Karen Daniel did 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:38.600 that was pivotal. She subpoened the underlying test data that 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:42.399 had been used by the ATF lab and all of 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:47.200 the documents related to those tests, and what that found 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:53.959 was stunning. First, she got the actual gas chromatographs, so 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:59.120 the actual tests, and contrary to his testimony, he did 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:03.200 test against the standard of kerosene, not a heavy dissolute, 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:07.879 but kerosene. Then when you look at those actual test data, 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:11.879 you find that, yes, there was kerosene in the living 0:25:11.960 --> 0:25:17.040 room where the kerosene heater had been years before. But 0:25:17.200 --> 0:25:20.639 then you look at the sample from Tony's bedroom, the 0:25:20.680 --> 0:25:27.200 sample that convicted Christine, and the test was negative for 0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:35.440 any liquid accelerate, kerosene, heavy petroleum distillate, nothing. What's more, 0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:41.800 in that file, there was a draft report that reflected 0:25:42.320 --> 0:25:45.760 accurately the test results, that is, that there had been 0:25:45.840 --> 0:25:49.320 kerosene in the living room and that the sample in 0:25:49.359 --> 0:25:54.520 Tony's bedroom was negative. And then there was a report 0:25:54.600 --> 0:25:59.320 that in handwriting that crossed that out and made that 0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:04.399 test result positive. How that happened, unfortunately, we'll never know 0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:07.800 because by the time we got to the hearing, the 0:26:07.880 --> 0:26:13.000 ATF agent, who is now deceased, was incompetent in an 0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:17.880 assisted living home and could not testify about what happened. 0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:25.119 But what was clear was Christine was convicted based on 0:26:25.600 --> 0:26:32.360 not only faulty but false evidence. So that takes care 0:26:32.359 --> 0:26:33.320 of the States case. 0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:37.360 So Christine's team exposed the junk science and the outright 0:26:37.400 --> 0:26:40.199 falsification of the real scientific data that led to our conviction. 0:26:40.640 --> 0:26:42.840 And by the way, these are your tax dollars at work. 0:26:43.080 --> 0:26:46.120 And if you don't think this could happen to you, well, 0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:49.960 don't even get me started. There's more to this, and 0:26:50.000 --> 0:26:53.520 I'm talking about with the defenses. Expert Jamie McAllister testified 0:26:53.560 --> 0:26:56.400 to about how the fire really started. 0:26:56.680 --> 0:27:01.879 Jamie McAllister, who is an expert in examining the victim's 0:27:01.960 --> 0:27:06.360 chemistry and reverse engineering how a fire must have started, 0:27:06.640 --> 0:27:12.120 testified about how this fire started. Tony died before the 0:27:12.160 --> 0:27:17.560 fire got hot. He died of carbon monoxide poisoning. There 0:27:17.680 --> 0:27:21.920 was no burning in his trachea, no burning in his lungs, 0:27:22.640 --> 0:27:27.480 and so he had stopped breathing before the fire got hot. 0:27:27.960 --> 0:27:31.280 His carboxy hemoglobin rate, which is what we referred to 0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:36.080 as carbon monoxide poisoning. It's when the carbon monoxide bonds 0:27:36.160 --> 0:27:41.560 with your blood. The hemoglobin was eighty percent. Fifty percent 0:27:41.760 --> 0:27:46.560 is lethal. So how did it get that high? Well, 0:27:46.760 --> 0:27:51.320 Jamie McAllister testifies that controlled experiment show that if the 0:27:51.359 --> 0:27:54.800 fire had started out in the open air of the 0:27:54.840 --> 0:27:58.199 living room or the bedroom, it would have produced a 0:27:58.240 --> 0:28:03.240 lot of carbon die oxide. Two oxygen molecules. Because there's 0:28:03.280 --> 0:28:07.960 a lot of air floating around and very little carbon 0:28:08.119 --> 0:28:15.000