1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: In the summer of nineteen ninety five, twenty one year 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: old single mom Christine Bunch was living in a trailer 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: in Greensburg, Indiana, with her three year old son Tony. 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: In the early morning hours of July thirtieth, an electrical 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: fire began between the roof and the ceiling tiles. When 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: the fire caused one of the ceiling tiles to fall 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: in Tony's bedroom, a cloud of carbon monoxide gas killed 8 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: the little boy before the fire even could. Christine awoke 9 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: in a carbon monoxide haze, desperately trying to save Tony. 10 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: After failed attempts at extinguishing the fire, she ran for help. 11 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: Then she smashed Tony's bedroom window, but it was too late. 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: She was barefoot, homeless, and deep in despair. Arson investigator 13 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: Brian Frank used what is widely now known as junk 14 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: science to point the blame for Tony's death squarely at Christine. 15 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: So six days after losing her three year old boy 16 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: and nearly everything she ever had, Christine lost her freedom 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: as well. With no potential alibi or eyewitnesses, the state 18 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: easily sealed Christine's fate with the testimony of Brian Frank 19 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: and ATF forensic analyst William Cannard. Christine gave birth to 20 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: her son, Trent, just a few months after being sent 21 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: to prison and a decade passed before her attorney and 22 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: a team from the Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern 23 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: University uncovered an egregious Brady violation and blatantly false testimony, 24 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: freeing Christine after seventeen years, one month, and sixteen days 25 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: behind bars. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flauber. Welcome 26 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason flaum That's me, of course, 27 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: and today you're going to hear story that's as heartbreaking 28 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: and tragic as it was preventable, and it's a remarkable 29 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: look inside the systemic flaws as well as human errors 30 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: that lead to wrongful convictions. And in this particular case, 31 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: we're going to be telling the story and hearing the 32 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: story of one of my absolute favorite human beings, a 33 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: personal hero of mine, who is doing amazing, amazing things 34 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: in the world right now, today and every day. And 35 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: so I am thrilled and honored to have with us 36 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: on the show today, Christine. 37 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 2: Bunch, Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. 38 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: And with Christine as someone whose name you'll probably recognize, 39 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: Ron Safer. Ron is a former US attorney turned corporate 40 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: lawyer turned justice fighter, and you'll recognize him because he 41 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 1: was a huge part of the exoneration of Julie Ray, 42 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: an episode that I'll never forget, and I hope if 43 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: you haven't heard it, that you'll go back and take 44 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: a listen. Anyway, Ron, welcome. 45 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 3: Back to be here. Thank you, Jason. 46 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: So let's get right into it. Christine, you grew up 47 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:06,839 Speaker 1: in Indiana, right, I did. 48 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 4: Things took a crazy turn when my parents divorced, but 49 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 4: for the most part I was happy and it was good. 50 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: Now at the time of this unimaginable tragedy, you were 51 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: just a young mother living in a trailer, working hard, 52 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: going to school, just starting your life, just twenty one 53 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:28,119 Speaker 1: years old, right. 54 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 2: That's correct. 55 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 4: I was working and going to school, and I had 56 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 4: a beautiful three year old son named Tony. 57 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: And then the worst nightmare that any parent can possibly 58 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: have or wake up to in a cold sweat, and 59 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: some of us probably have had that experience, but it 60 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: actually happened to you. And Ron, can you tell us 61 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: about that awful morning of June thirtieth, nineteen ninety five. 62 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 3: What happened was Christine and Tony had gone to sleep 63 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: together on a couch in the living room area of 64 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 3: the trailer. Before Christine woke up, Tony had moved to 65 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 3: the front room, which was a separate room from the 66 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 3: living room. Christine awoke to a sound and a small fire. 67 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 3: She was disoriented, but she saw the small fire and 68 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 3: she tried to put it out with a pillow and 69 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 3: couldn't do that, so she tried to smother the fire 70 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:38,239 Speaker 3: with a blanket, and that didn't work either. Carbon monoxide 71 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 3: is intoxicating. Christine was undoubtedly affected by this carbon monoxide. 72 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 3: She's trying to put out the fire. She can't find 73 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 3: the fire extinguisher. She knows where the fire extinguisher is, 74 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 3: she can't find it. So by that time, the fire 75 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 3: had grown into a wall her and Tony, and she 76 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 3: could not get to him. So she frantically went out 77 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 3: of the trailer, tried to get help, and then tried 78 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 3: to break the window into the front room so that 79 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 3: she could get to Tony, but it was too late, 80 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 3: and Tony had perished. 81 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 1: It's impossible to even conceive of the horror and the 82 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: panic in a time like that, Even if you didn't 83 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 1: have kids like waking up to a fire. Christine, what 84 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: are your memories of that awful night now twenty five 85 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: years ago. 86 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: I think the thing that sits with me the most 87 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: is it was just normal. 88 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 4: I came home from school, and I got Tony from 89 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 4: the babysitter, and we went home and we cooked, and 90 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 4: I think we watched some TV and did some laundry, 91 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 4: and we fell asleep. I'd read him a story and 92 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 4: he wasn't feeling really well, and we fell asleep on 93 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 4: the couch under the air conditioner. 94 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: And everything just seemed normal. 95 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 4: You didn't realize that you were going to wake up 96 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 4: in your whole world would be turned upside down. 97 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 98 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: I mean, your whole world was really destroyed at a 99 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: time when the community and the system should have been 100 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 1: coming to help you in every conceivable way. Instead, you 101 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: were exposed to and victimized by the worst that the 102 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: system and our society has to offer. And it's so 103 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: important that you're here now because this arson quote unquote 104 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: science that they used in order to frame you and 105 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: wrongfully convict you for a crime that never even happened 106 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: is something that we need to focus on because we 107 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: need awareness among everyone, because someday, you, the listener, may 108 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: find yourself on a jury and you may be presented 109 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: with this same sort of junk science. 110 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 3: Fire investigation was an apprentice art. There were what was 111 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 3: regarded as common knowledge and industry standards that were passed 112 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 3: down from generation to generation. Virtually none of those conventional 113 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 3: wisdom were true, and when tested by scientific principles, they 114 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 3: were all debunked. Unfortunately, that came too late for Christine. 115 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: And this starts with a fire investigator named Brian Frank. 116 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 3: So what Frank did was the day of this fire, 117 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 3: and keep in mind this trailer was completely incinerated. He 118 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 3: comes into the trailer and just plucks things out of 119 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 3: thin air. He says, Oh, this is a burn pattern 120 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 3: on the floor. That's evidence of a liquid with the 121 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 3: accelerant like gasoline. Ooh, there's a V pattern on the wall. 122 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 3: That is fire burns up in a V pattern. And therefore, 123 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 3: because there are two of these, there were two points 124 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 3: of origin. A normal accidental fire will have one point 125 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 3: of origin. Sometimes if a fire is intentionally set, it 126 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 3: will have two points of origin. Says oops, here the 127 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 3: fire burned down. That is a sign of a liquid accelerant. 128 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 3: For all of these reasons, I conclude this was not 129 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 3: an accidental fire. This was intentionally set because, as you 130 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 3: said at the beginning, Jason, unlike many crimes like a 131 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 3: robbery or a fraud or a murder, the question in 132 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,959 Speaker 3: an arson is was a crime even committed? And upon 133 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 3: that threshold question rests the lives of hundreds of people, 134 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 3: including Christine. 135 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: Here's what's absolutely nuts is that to become a licensed 136 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: arson investigator, one who can testify in court, you can 137 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: take a forty hour correspondence course. It takes fifteen hundred 138 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: hours in some places to become a manicurist. You can't 139 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: get a barber's license in less than six months. The 140 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: idea that they've been relying on these charlatans you'd be 141 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: better off consulting with psychics or even just guessing. And 142 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: in Christine's case, there are so many other problems. Right, 143 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: there's a tunnel vision with holding of sculpatory evidence, there's 144 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: multiple incompetent investigators who pass themselves off as experts, and 145 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: then it goes downhill from there. So there you are 146 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: outside the house and in minutes, in moments, your life 147 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: has gone from a good life full of love and 148 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: hope to the worst imaginable scenario. 149 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 4: You're just in shock and you don't really believe what 150 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 4: people are telling you because they kept telling me, no, 151 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 4: you can't go in and know we couldn't get hit 152 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 4: him and know he's not alive. 153 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: And of course, as apparent, you don't want to believe that. 154 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 2: People on the outside want to look at. 155 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 4: It and say, well, if this was done differently, or 156 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 4: if you had acted this way. And I mean, for myself, 157 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 4: I have played it over and over and over and 158 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 4: over again in my mind. I still every day that 159 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 4: I wake up play it over in my mind, and 160 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 4: I don't. 161 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 2: Know how to come up with a different scenario. When 162 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 2: you're in that. 163 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 4: Moment and the terror paralyzes you, you don't know what 164 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 4: you would do. So it's easy to stand outside and 165 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 4: say this should have never happen, and somebody has to 166 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 4: be blamed. 167 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: Right, because the alternative is incomprehensible to most people, why 168 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: an innocent baby would be taken from us. Christine, six 169 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: days in hell, right, six days for you between the 170 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: fire and the loss of your child and the time 171 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: that you're arrested. What were those six days like? What 172 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: were you doing. 173 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: I went with my parents to. 174 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 4: Plan a funeral, and my mom and dad really went 175 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 4: through how the service was going to be, and I 176 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 4: just remember sitting there and crying, and then I told 177 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 4: him that I wanted a song played something that I, 178 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 4: you know, sang with Tony, and he said, we can 179 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 4: play whatever you want, and then I had to go 180 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 4: get clothes. 181 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 2: To her to a funeral. 182 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 4: At that time, I was still walking around barefoot because 183 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 4: I'd literally lost everything, and everybody was trying to comfort 184 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 4: you and give you advice, and it. 185 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: Just doesn't comfort you. So you feel more alone than 186 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 2: ever because you don't want to hurt their. 187 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 4: Feelings, but everything they're saying to you doesn't penetrate. 188 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 5: The police didn't help because they followed me everywhere I 189 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 5: went and talked to everybody after I left, and they 190 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 5: even showed up and my son's funeral and burial. 191 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,079 Speaker 4: They came to me before I even got out of 192 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 4: the hospital and told me that it was an arson. 193 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 4: They literally wanted a list of all my family and friends, 194 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 4: anybody that could have possibly done it. 195 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: Then they come back to me and say, no, you're 196 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 2: you're the person. You're under arrest for this, and in 197 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 2: a small town. 198 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 4: Once they make or and arrest and put a headline 199 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 4: on the paper in a small community, in that community's mind, 200 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 4: you're guilty. 201 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: So now you're arrested. How long were you held before 202 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: the trial? Were you able to bail out? 203 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:24,599 Speaker 4: I was in there from July sixth to October mid October, 204 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 4: I bonded out on a fifty thousand dollars cash bond. 205 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 4: I tell my son Trent all the time that he's 206 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 4: the miracle that saved me. But when I got out, 207 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 4: I certainly didn't care if I lived or died, and 208 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 4: so I was drinking and doing a lot of self 209 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 4: medicating because I just didn't want to feel anymore. And 210 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 4: in the midst of that, I started getting sick and 211 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 4: that's when I discovered I was pregnant. 212 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the worst possible scenario. Although now, as 213 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: you said, it turns out to be the thing that 214 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: saved you. And we'll get into more of that later. 215 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: But Ron, this trial is full of I mean again, 216 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: it's horseshit. The stuff that they were spewing from the stand. 217 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 3: It began with the prosecutor standing in front of the 218 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 3: jury and saying motive is not an element of the crime. 219 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 3: We don't have to prove motive. People tend not to 220 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 3: commit crimes for no reason. And of course they investigated 221 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 3: Christine and her motive for this crime, and they found 222 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 3: that she was a good, loving, carrying, wonderful mother and 223 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 3: that she and Tony had a beautiful relationship. Everybody said 224 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 3: that universally, and so they're left with telling the jury, Okay, 225 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 3: Christine committed this horrific crime for no reason, but we 226 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 3: don't have to prove motive. Then their case depended one 227 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 3: hundred percent on this quote unquote expert testimony, because Christine 228 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 3: didn't set this fire, so of course nobody saw her 229 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 3: set the fire, nobody saw her prepare to set the fire, 230 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 3: nobody's heard her talk about setting the fire, nobody afterwards. 231 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 3: There was no physical evidence, no forensic evidence, nothing. Of course, 232 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 3: the trailer wasn't insured, she lost all of her possessions, 233 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 3: she lost, of course, the person who meant most to 234 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 3: her in the world. So they were left with this 235 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 3: expert testimony, these absurd fire investigation myths, which should have 236 00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 3: and could have been dispelled by a defense atturn or 237 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 3: competent defense expert. But there was something else that was 238 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 3: critical in this trial that would have been difficult for 239 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 3: a defense attorney to combat. 240 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: And I have to tell the audience that this critical 241 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: evidence becomes just as important later to prove in Christine's 242 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: innocence as it was in getting her convicted. But go ahead, Ron. 243 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 3: They took ten samples from the trailer, from the floor 244 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 3: of the trailer, from the carpet of the trailer, from 245 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 3: Christine's nightgown, and they tested it for various accelerants. There 246 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 3: was no gasoline. There was no inflammatory substance of any 247 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 3: kind on Christine's nightgown, even though they said that she 248 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 3: would splash this accelerant all around. But there were two 249 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 3: positive samples. And those samples, by the way, were given 250 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 3: to the Bureau of Alcohol to back on firearms atf 251 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 3: who federally investigates arson crimes and they have special laboratories, 252 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 3: and they did gas chromatography on these samples, and they 253 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 3: presented evidence at trial that there were two positive tests 254 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 3: for what they called a heavy petroleum distillant like jet 255 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 3: fuel or something else specifically not kerosene, and that was 256 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 3: found in the living room area and critically in the 257 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 3: front room, the room where Tony was found now there 258 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 3: is reason for there to be kerosene in the living 259 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,959 Speaker 3: room because the prior owners of this trailer testified that 260 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 3: they had a kerosene heater and that they overfilled it 261 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 3: from time to time. Kerosene does not evaporate, and so 262 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 3: even from years before, there would be kerosene in the wood. 263 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 3: But there's no explanation for a heavy petroleum distolate like 264 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 3: jet fuel. And there is absolutely no innocent explanation for 265 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 3: there to be a heavy petroleum distolate in the front 266 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 3: room Tony's bedroom. And that was critical evidence that was 267 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 3: not refuted by the defense attorney. And on the strength 268 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 3: of that expert testimony of end these critical lab determinations, 269 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 3: Christine was convicted. 270 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: March fourth, nineteen ninety six, twenty two years old. Pregnant, 271 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: Christine is convicted of arson and murder. Less than a 272 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: month later, she's sentenced to two concurrent terms, sixty years 273 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: for murder and fifty years for arson. So how pregnant 274 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: were you, Christine at the time of this wrongful conviction 275 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: And what the hell was it like giving birth behind ball? 276 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 2: I was almost six months pregnant. 277 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 4: The only thing they don't do to pregnant women is 278 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 4: make them wear the belly chain and the box because 279 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 4: the baby's not a prisoner. But with so many pregnant 280 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 4: women in there, you don't always get soft cuffs for 281 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 4: your feet. So I've got deep scars on the back 282 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 4: of my ankles from wearing those metal shackles. And then 283 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 4: when I finally went into labor, I didn't really know 284 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 4: that I was in labor because I was just having 285 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 4: a backache. So they took me to the infirmary and 286 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 4: couldn't find a heartbeat. 287 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 2: I lost it. 288 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 4: I started, you know, screaming at him, and so I 289 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 4: was handcuffed. 290 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 2: And shackle and taken out into an ambulance. 291 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 4: And when I got to the hospital, a doctor come 292 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 4: in and explained that I was having contractions and that's 293 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 4: why they could here the heartbeat. They determined that I 294 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 4: was going to have an emergency c section, so they 295 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 4: had cuffs and shackles came off, and I got a 296 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 4: metal cuff on my ankle in the log chain. 297 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 2: I got about thirty six hours with Trent. 298 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 6: And then I was transferred back to the facility and 299 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 6: my family took him home. 300 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode 301 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: of Rawfuel Conviction and of the Last Mile organization, which 302 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: provides business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully 303 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: and permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is 304 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting 305 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: organizations that are dedicated primarily to helping young people and students. 306 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: For more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation 307 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: or the Last Mile Program, visit Pacersfoundation dot org or 308 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 1: the Lastmile dot org. This episode is sponsored by AIG, 309 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: a leading global insurance company, and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton 310 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: and Garrison, a leading international law firm. The AIG pro 311 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: Bono Program provides free legal services and other support to 312 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need, and recently 313 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: they announced that working to reform the criminal justice system 314 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: will become a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul 315 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: Weiss has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful 316 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: pro bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of 317 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: our society and in support of the public interest, including 318 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: extensive work in the criminal justice area. So the good 319 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: news is that there is actually an equal or greater 320 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: number of heroes in this story. Than villains Betsy Marx, 321 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: Hillary po Rix, Jamie McAllister, and the other two actual 322 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: fire science to John Dehan and John Maluley, plus the 323 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: electrical engineer Richard Hanson. Then Karen Daniel and Jane Raley, 324 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: legends in the field were on your side. And of 325 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: course Ron himself, Ron Safer, I mean, the fucking cavalry 326 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: came in on this one, right. Can you talk now 327 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: about the process that led seventeen years later to Christine 328 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: finally coming home. 329 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 3: Yes, Christine pursued this tirelessly against all odds. Found a 330 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 3: wonderful local attorney, Hillary bo Rix, who believed in Christine 331 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 3: but really did not have the resources to take on 332 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 3: the awesome power of the state, and a supporter of Christine. 333 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 3: Wrote a letter to Northwestern Center on Wrongful Convictions, and 334 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 3: Jane Rayley, along with Karen Daniel, took Christine's case and 335 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 3: they disassembled every piece of evidence the state put forward. 336 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 3: Karen and Jane assembled the world's experts on fire science, 337 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 3: not the myths of arson investigation, but on fire science 338 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 3: to prove first that everything the state said was wrong, 339 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 3: and then second that Christine was innocent, not beyond a 340 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 3: reasonable doubt. Beyond any doubt. So first they got a 341 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 3: former ATF agent and he testified that every one of 342 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 3: the myths that was used by the so called arson 343 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 3: investigator Brian Frank was wrong. A V pattern does not 344 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 3: indicate a point of origin. It indicates a point where 345 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 3: something burned against a wall. Fire burns down not because 346 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 3: of the liquid accelerant, but because it's seeking oxygen and 347 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 3: there was a hole in the trailer. So the burn 348 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 3: patterns that Frank says indicated that there was a liquid 349 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 3: accelerant have been disproved. Brian Frank said that the fire 350 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 3: was hotter because a liquid accelerant was used. That is 351 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 3: a myth. Controlled experiments prove that fire is no hotter. Indeed, 352 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 3: the heat depends on what is being burnt. So chemistry 353 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 3: physics disproved every one of the pieces of evidence. But 354 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 3: there was one more critical thing that Karen Daniel did 355 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 3: that was pivotal. She subpoened the underlying test data that 356 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 3: had been used by the ATF lab and all of 357 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 3: the documents related to those tests, and what that found 358 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 3: was stunning. First, she got the actual gas chromatographs, so 359 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 3: the actual tests, and contrary to his testimony, he did 360 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 3: test against the standard of kerosene, not a heavy dissolute, 361 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 3: but kerosene. Then when you look at those actual test data, 362 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 3: you find that, yes, there was kerosene in the living 363 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 3: room where the kerosene heater had been years before. But 364 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 3: then you look at the sample from Tony's bedroom, the 365 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 3: sample that convicted Christine, and the test was negative for 366 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 3: any liquid accelerate, kerosene, heavy petroleum distillate, nothing. What's more, 367 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 3: in that file, there was a draft report that reflected 368 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 3: accurately the test results, that is, that there had been 369 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 3: kerosene in the living room and that the sample in 370 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 3: Tony's bedroom was negative. And then there was a report 371 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 3: that in handwriting that crossed that out and made that 372 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 3: test result positive. How that happened, unfortunately, we'll never know 373 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 3: because by the time we got to the hearing, the 374 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 3: ATF agent, who is now deceased, was incompetent in an 375 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 3: assisted living home and could not testify about what happened. 376 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 3: But what was clear was Christine was convicted based on 377 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 3: not only faulty but false evidence. So that takes care 378 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 3: of the States case. 379 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 1: So Christine's team exposed the junk science and the outright 380 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: falsification of the real scientific data that led to our conviction. 381 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: And by the way, these are your tax dollars at work. 382 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 1: And if you don't think this could happen to you, well, 383 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: don't even get me started. There's more to this, and 384 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: I'm talking about with the defenses. Expert Jamie McAllister testified 385 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 1: to about how the fire really started. 386 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 3: Jamie McAllister, who is an expert in examining the victim's 387 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 3: chemistry and reverse engineering how a fire must have started, 388 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 3: testified about how this fire started. Tony died before the 389 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 3: fire got hot. He died of carbon monoxide poisoning. There 390 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 3: was no burning in his trachea, no burning in his lungs, 391 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 3: and so he had stopped breathing before the fire got hot. 392 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 3: His carboxy hemoglobin rate, which is what we referred to 393 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 3: as carbon monoxide poisoning. It's when the carbon monoxide bonds 394 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 3: with your blood. The hemoglobin was eighty percent. Fifty percent 395 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 3: is lethal. So how did it get that high? Well, 396 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 3: Jamie McAllister testifies that controlled experiment show that if the 397 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 3: fire had started out in the open air of the 398 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 3: living room or the bedroom, it would have produced a 399 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 3: lot of carbon die oxide. Two oxygen molecules. Because there's 400 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 3: a lot of air floating around and very little carbon 401 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 3: monoxide one oxygen molecule, it would have taken ninety minutes 402 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 3: for the fire to have produced enough carbon monoxide for 403 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 3: Tony to have gotten to a carboxy hemoglobin rate approaching 404 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,719 Speaker 3: eighty percent. He would have burned to death long before that, 405 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 3: and of course his lungs and everything else would have burned. 406 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 3: That didn't happen. So how did this fire happen? Well, 407 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 3: as an electrician testified, there were electrical wires that were 408 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 3: overloaded that ran between the roof and the drop down 409 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 3: ceiling tiles. There was an electrical fire that started that morning. 410 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 3: But because there's limited oxygen there, what happens is the 411 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 3: fire smolders and produces a lot of carbon monoxide up 412 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 3: in the ceiling. Now, eventually the fire gets hot enough 413 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 3: so that one of the ceiling tiles burns and drops 414 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 3: to the floor. That undoubtedly is what Christine awakens to. Now, 415 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 3: when that happens, the carbon monoxide fills the Tony's room 416 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 3: like a balloon that is letting out its air. Physical 417 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 3: tests and chemical tests prove within minutes he dies of 418 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 3: carbon monoxide poisoning. That's how this fire had to have happened. 419 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 3: And thus, not only was there no evidence that Christine 420 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 3: was guilty of an arson, there was conclusive evidence that 421 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 3: the fire was an accidental fire that took place in 422 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 3: the confined area of the ceiling, and that Tony died 423 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 3: as everybody knew, of carbon monoxide poisoning. 424 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: But in spite of all of this, on June eighth 425 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: of twenty ten, now over fourteen years after your conviction, 426 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: Judge Weshoffer denied you a new trial. He said, quote, 427 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: While and this is a quote, while mss Bunch had 428 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,719 Speaker 1: new resources available to her at the post conviction hearing, 429 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: new experts do not create new evidence. The issues raised 430 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: and the conclusions reached, while packaged differently, remained basically the 431 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: same as they were at trial in nineteen ninety six 432 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: end quote. He went on to add that he did 433 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: not believe the ATF documents would have changed the outcome 434 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: of the trial. And I mean it was exposed that 435 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: they falsified the findings and said the samples were positive 436 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: when they weren't. What the actual fuck like And this again, 437 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: if you don't think this can happen to you and 438 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: I'm talking to the audience now, of course you're wrong. 439 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: A very large percentage of judges are elected and the 440 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: others are appointed by elected officials. Either way, your decisions 441 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: in the voting booth are going to determine who ends 442 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: up on the bench. So and of my rant, back 443 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: to the story. Meanwhile, another Indianapolis lawyer joins the team, 444 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: John Larimore, And then we get to the good stuff. 445 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: Right on July thirteenth, twenty eleven, Ron who's here with 446 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: us now, argued in front of a three member panel 447 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: of the Court of Appeals of Indiana. 448 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 3: At the argument itself, it was very clear from the 449 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 3: questioning of the judges that one judge was dead set 450 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 3: against us. There was nothing I was going to be 451 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 3: able to say to change his mind. One judge was 452 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 3: for us, and no matter how incoherently I babbled, he 453 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 3: was going to vote for us. And so the middle judge, 454 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 3: the chief judge, held Christine's fate in her hand. Our 455 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 3: working theory and it made sense, said, if the court 456 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 3: was going to reverse this conviction, they would have done 457 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 3: it right away because they know she's sitting in jail. 458 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 3: So we're sitting there understanding that The longer this goes on, 459 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,719 Speaker 3: the more likely it is we lost. As time wore on, 460 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 3: despair grew. 461 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: And eight of what must have been truly agonizing. Months later, Christine, 462 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: on March twenty first of twenty twelve, in a two 463 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: to one decision, the panel reversed the conviction and granted 464 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: you a new trial, citing the evolution of fire science, 465 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: as well as the fact that sculpatory evidence was withheld 466 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: that quote unquote directly contradicted ATF forensic analyst William Kinnard's 467 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: trial testimony. Christine, how did you find out about this 468 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: momentous decision? 469 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 4: I got a call to come to the counselor's office 470 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 4: and my lawyers were on the phone to. 471 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 2: Tell me that they had reversed my conviction and remanded 472 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 2: for a new trial. 473 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 4: I started crying, and I asked them if they called 474 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 4: my son. 475 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 2: I wanted him to know that I won and I 476 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 2: was going. 477 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 4: To come home, and so they assured me that yes, 478 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 4: they were calling him, and I ended up. I stayed 479 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 4: in the counselor's office for like an hour and a 480 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 4: half because I head back to back calls, and she said, 481 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 4: you know, she said, we're just going to make this 482 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 4: your day, so everybody can call and congratulate you and 483 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 4: tell you the news, and they were just so happy 484 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 4: for me. 485 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: Ron. What about you? What's your recollection of that phone call? 486 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 3: I cared beyond measure about Christine in this case and 487 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 3: getting her out of jail, and when it ultimately happened, 488 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 3: it was as if it was happening to my sister. 489 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 3: Just the most moving experience. Although the reality comes home 490 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 3: of Okay, she's not at a jail, she gets a 491 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 3: new trial, is she's still sitting in jail. We got 492 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 3: to get her out of jail. 493 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: So almost five months go by after March twenty first, 494 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 1: twenty twelve and the amazing phone call, all the way 495 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: to August eighth, when the Indiana Supreme Court left the 496 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: Appellate Court's decision undisturbed. And then finally about a month 497 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 1: after that, September one, twenty twelve, seventeen years, one month 498 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: and sixteen days after you were arrested, Christine, you were 499 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: finally released into the arms of your family. What was 500 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: that like? 501 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 4: Well, I mean when you first walk out, I think 502 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 4: all you're looking at is the dream finally happened. 503 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 2: And I have so many possibilities. 504 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 4: After that initial who wears off, then you're left. 505 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 2: With all of these fears and insecurities. 506 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 4: It was great walking out and seeing everyone, but then 507 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 4: you know, I'm facing another murder trial, so we have 508 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 4: to start preparing for that. And I have, you know, 509 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 4: my son, who I have to provide a home for, 510 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 4: and I have to make sure that he has everything 511 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 4: he needs. He's just sixteen, so I don't have a 512 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 4: driver's license, I don't have any kind of ID, I 513 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,399 Speaker 4: don't have renter's history, credit score, all of these things. 514 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 4: I don't even know where I'm going to get a 515 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 4: job after seventeen years. So fear starts to take you over, 516 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 4: and I think that At first I was just like, 517 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 4: I'm not going. 518 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 2: To make it. There's no way I'm going to be 519 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 2: able to make it. 520 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 4: And that first night, my son was showing me on 521 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 4: his laptop how to set up a Facebook account, and 522 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 4: while I'm looking at it, I see that he has 523 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 4: the Appellate Court site bookmarked, and I said, why do 524 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 4: you have that? And he looked at me and he said, 525 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 4: because I checked every day to see if they made 526 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 4: a decision, and you. 527 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 2: Were coming home, and I started crying. 528 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 4: And I said, you know, I said, I've been so 529 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 4: worried and so unsure, but. 530 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,760 Speaker 2: Hearing that you believed in me and we're just waiting 531 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 2: for me to come home. I can make it through anything. 532 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 1: Then another and a long line of amazing developments in 533 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 1: your case happened just before Christmas, which must have made 534 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: that time of year even sweeter. The prosecution finally came 535 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,240 Speaker 1: around to their senses and dropped the charges, which brings 536 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 1: us to your next struggle, compensation for all that lost time. 537 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: And of course no amount of money can be enough 538 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,280 Speaker 1: to repay what you lost, but you had an uphill 539 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: battle and a unique struggle to even get compensation. Can 540 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: you fill us in on that. 541 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 2: Yes, So, like everyone, I filed a civil suit. 542 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 4: Clearly people are protected, so you have to break through 543 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 4: immunity to try to sue. The issue is the ATF 544 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 4: chemist is deceased, so I didn't have a leg to 545 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 4: stand on, and that was ultimately dismissed. 546 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 2: Compensation. 547 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 4: I have been working since I've been out, and well, 548 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,720 Speaker 4: I've helped pass new legislation in three different states working 549 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 4: with the Innocence Project. This past year we passed compensation 550 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 4: in Indiana and then when my civil suit was dismissed, 551 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 4: I applied for the compensation. You know, it was I think, 552 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 4: very surreal to receive a letter from them saying that 553 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 4: just because my conviction was reversed and I wasn't retried 554 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,720 Speaker 4: did not mean that I was actually innocent, and it really, 555 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 4: I mean it hurt my feeling. Is because I testified 556 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 4: before these legislators three separate occasions. The senators and representatives 557 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 4: that passed this bill used my case to pass this 558 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 4: compensation bill, and then you're going to basically retry me 559 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:17,720 Speaker 4: all over again. 560 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: So are they really trying to relitigate this case? 561 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 2: No, they are not. 562 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,399 Speaker 4: But as you go through the process, you fill out 563 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 4: a compensation application and then they review it. So for them, 564 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 4: they reached out to the prosecutor, and the prosecutor said, 565 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 4: you know, no, we didn't have evidence at the time 566 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 4: to retry this, but you know, we aren't going to 567 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,439 Speaker 4: say we made a mistake. They never want to say 568 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:45,320 Speaker 4: they made a mistake. 569 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 2: So I had. 570 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 4: To reach out to everyone I knew, the Center on 571 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 4: Wrongful Convictions with you know, the amazing Laura and I 572 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 4: writer and Steve Drisen, Ron Safer and all of them 573 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 4: wrote letters and admitted the evidence that was used to 574 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 4: exonerate me in order to show them that I am 575 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 4: innocent and worthy of this conversation. 576 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 2: Twenty five years after the fact. 577 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,280 Speaker 4: They are reviewing the application. They've been reviewing it since November. 578 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's hope they come to their senses and 579 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: come to the right decision, because I think the right 580 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 1: thing to do is clear to everyone who's listening and 581 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: to anyone with a heart and a soul. So let's 582 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 1: get to what you're doing now. You started an organization 583 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: called just Is for just Us. 584 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 4: Just is just like it sounds because the situation just is, 585 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 4: and then it's for just us, which means all of 586 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 4: us exoneries. Justice for just Us was started by myself 587 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 4: and another exonery that came from the Center on Wrongful 588 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 4: Convictions and Juan and I just basically wanted to address 589 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 4: what it was like because when people walk out, you 590 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,879 Speaker 4: don't have a toothbrush, you don't have the basic necessities. 591 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 4: So j for JA for short. You know, we're helping 592 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 4: with boxes. If somebody reaches out and says, hey, I 593 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 4: need an outfit and I need basic hygiens, we put 594 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,280 Speaker 4: that together. We've helped take some axonneries to the Innocence conference, 595 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 4: sent out gas cards, cash cards, We've paid rent, we've 596 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 4: paid bills, and our organization allows healthcare providers to donate 597 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 4: services so they can get a dental visit or some 598 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 4: counseling sessions or a physical things that are desperately needed 599 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 4: when you return. 600 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: It's such an important thing, you know. I've tried to 601 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 1: devote myself to doing as much as I can to 602 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: help people coming out of the system, because it's exactly 603 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: as you described. It's like I call it the second punishment. 604 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,359 Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is most people coming 605 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: out have no support whatsoever. They may get forty dollars 606 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: and a bus ticket and then you know, not even 607 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: a good luck. So there are a number of wonderful 608 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 1: organis stations doing this work, and I encourage everyone to 609 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: support just is for just Us. So please everyone scroll 610 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: down on the episode description and get involved with just 611 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: Is for just Us. And now this is the part 612 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: of the show, of course that we call closing arguments. 613 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: So first of all, thank you to our phenomenal guest today. 614 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: The closing argument segment works like this, I turn off 615 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 1: my microphone, kick back on my chair, leave my headphones on. 616 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,399 Speaker 1: Sometimes I close my eyes, and we're going to let 617 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: each of you have the final word on whatever you 618 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,320 Speaker 1: want to talk about. So let's go to Ron first 619 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: and then Christine you can just take us out. 620 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,360 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, thanks so much Jason for telling 621 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 3: this story, for telling the other stories. 622 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 1: It is so. 623 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:51,320 Speaker 3: Critically important to raise public awareness of these wrongful convictions. 624 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 3: We have the best criminal justice system in the world, 625 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 3: but it is run by human being, and human beings 626 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:08,959 Speaker 3: are flawed. They make mistakes, they at times act intentionally maliciously. 627 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 3: When that happens, it takes enormous resources to get the 628 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:19,280 Speaker 3: system back on track, and so few people are able 629 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 3: to afford those resources or are given those resources. So 630 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 3: what has to happen is everybody involved in the system. Prosecutors, judges, 631 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 3: jurors have to have an open mind. They have to 632 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:46,280 Speaker 3: be persons of goodwill. We as citizens have to hold 633 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:51,280 Speaker 3: them accountable that their jobs are not to get convictions, 634 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:56,799 Speaker 3: their jobs are to do justice, and we have to 635 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 3: insist on that. We have to enter that jury box 636 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:05,839 Speaker 3: as citizens, giving credence to the presumption of innocence that 637 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 3: our constitution requires. They're not words. They are a critical concept. 638 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 3: But if we don't pay attention to it, if we 639 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 3: don't honor it, then wonderful people like Christine will have 640 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 3: their lives robbed from them, losing decades that nobody can 641 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 3: give back to them. And so this is a call 642 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 3: to action. We have to be more active, we have 643 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 3: to be more responsible. We have to be accountable and 644 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,919 Speaker 3: make sure that everybody in the system is accountable. 645 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,399 Speaker 4: Christine, when I go speak to the community and tell 646 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 4: them how they can help with j for Jay, or 647 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,799 Speaker 4: how they can help the Innocence Project, or how they 648 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 4: can step up and make changes within our system. 649 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 2: Because it is a great system. 650 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 4: It is designed to work, and we have to take 651 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 4: responsibility and make sure it works. 652 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 2: So I know that everybody is sitting. 653 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,319 Speaker 4: There saying I don't have money to donate, but everybody 654 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 4: does have. 655 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 2: To step up and say I have something to give here. 656 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,239 Speaker 4: I can vote, I can educate myself so that when 657 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,960 Speaker 4: I'm sitting on a jury, I know what I'm listening 658 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 4: to because the CSI you watch on TV that's not 659 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 4: always accurate. So really learning about these issues, really raising 660 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 4: your voice and. 661 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 2: Saying you know, we need to change some things that's 662 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 2: how we make the world better. 663 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,239 Speaker 6: And I encourage all of you to learn about this 664 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 6: and figure out if you can help by voting, by 665 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 6: sharing our stories, by talking to an axonary, by just 666 00:44:59,040 --> 00:44:59,680 Speaker 6: being there. 667 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,239 Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 668 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,000 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud 669 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll 670 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 671 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org 672 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like 673 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. 674 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 675 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on 676 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. 677 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava 678 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:47,280 Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one