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Speaker 1: Welcome to Had of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,

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Speaker 1: and today we're talking about the high cost of kids

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Speaker 1: with Emily Oster. Yeah, Joel, we don't shy away from

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Speaker 1: the fact that you and I we're big fans of

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Speaker 1: having kids. You've got three kids, I've got four. Actually,

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Speaker 1: recently at a personal finance conference, I mentioned that to

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Speaker 1: someone that I had just met, that I've got four kids,

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Speaker 1: and she literally did a spit take when I told

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Speaker 1: her that. But I think there's multiple reasons for that,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure, but the costly nature of having kids is

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Speaker 1: a big reason. For sure. It's not what most folks

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Speaker 1: are doing these days. And depending on which study you're

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Speaker 1: looking at, depends on where in the country you live

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Speaker 1: as well. I've seen upwards of like four hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars per kid. So we're hoping to set the record

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Speaker 1: straight today with Emily Auster. Emily is a professor of

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Speaker 1: economics at Brown University. She's the author of books like

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Speaker 1: Expecting Better, Cribsheet, Family Firm, all relating to the different

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Speaker 1: stages of parenting or soon to be parenting that you're in.

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Speaker 1: And now she's host of the new podcast Raising Parents

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Speaker 1: and You might know her as the lady who says

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Speaker 1: it's okay to have wine in coffee in moderation while

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Speaker 1: you're pregnant, or who shared unpopular opinions on COVID policies

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Speaker 1: during the pandemic. She's not afraid to dive into the controversial.

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Speaker 1: But we're excited to talk about all things that are

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Speaker 1: going to be kids and money related with you today, Emily.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you guys so much for having me excited to

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Speaker 2: be here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're glad to have you, Emily. The first question

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Speaker 1: we ask everyone who comes on the show. Matt and

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Speaker 1: I like to drink craft beer. Sometimes it can get expensive,

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Speaker 1: but we're splurging on stuff that matter in the here

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Speaker 1: and now while we're doing the smart thing and saving

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Speaker 1: and investing for our future as well. What's that thing

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Speaker 1: you like to spoor? John?

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Speaker 3: Running shoes? I have like a disturbing number expensive running shoes.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so Joel just recently told me about you called

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Speaker 1: them like pro something shoes, super shoes you call super shoes.

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Speaker 1: But I just realize when you mentioned it, that's the

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Speaker 1: same it's the same thing as like the carbon plate shoes.

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Speaker 1: Or whatever you told me about them, Emily, how many

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Speaker 1: of How many of those do you?

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's good to get into numbers, really,

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Speaker 2: but it's.

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Speaker 1: Just it's the data driven.

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Speaker 2: It's more than one. Let's just ranges. It's more than one.

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Speaker 1: Do they really make that big of an impact on

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Speaker 1: your time? Because when you look at the numbers from

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Speaker 1: some of the marathon runners, what I heard times were

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Speaker 1: going down by three or four percent by wearing those fancy.

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Speaker 3: It's about four percent on average, and there's some range

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Speaker 3: across people.

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Speaker 1: Okay, holy cow, I might just just to like show

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Speaker 1: my wife up when we're out for a while. But uh, Emily,

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Speaker 1: we appreciate you joining us. You are an economists, Like

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Speaker 1: I mentioned, what was the impetus to apply data to

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Speaker 1: something that has often been viewed as more intuitive, you know,

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Speaker 1: this being parenting and family decisions.

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Speaker 3: So I am an economist, and I'm a person who

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Speaker 3: loves data and has always thought that it is appropriate

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Speaker 3: to think about data as a way to make decisions

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Speaker 3: about your everyday life, not just about your finances, but

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Speaker 3: about all kinds of other stuff. And so when I

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Speaker 3: got pregnant now fourteen years ago, it was kind of

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Speaker 3: natural to take that data lens into pregnancy and then

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Speaker 3: into parenting, and that's where the books came from. But

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Speaker 3: it was for me a very natural, like data is

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Speaker 3: the way that you make decisions, and so it didn't

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Speaker 3: seem as weird as I think it does to other

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Speaker 3: people when I explain.

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Speaker 1: It, is that partly because you come from a long

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Speaker 1: line of economists, you're married to an economist? Is I'm curious,

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Speaker 1: like what Thanksgiving dinner is like at your house? I

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Speaker 1: would love to be on a fly on the wall

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Speaker 1: to know what, like a bunch of economists do. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like a joke, almost like five economists go

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Speaker 1: to a Thanksgiving dinner? Like what is that? Like? Wow?

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Speaker 1: Is that part of it?

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Speaker 2: A little bit?

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Speaker 3: I mean, now we have a lot of small children,

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Speaker 3: and only one of the nine grandchildren is actually interested

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Speaker 3: in economics, and so we've had to dial it down

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Speaker 3: a bit. But certainly, growing up with two economist parents

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Speaker 3: gave me a way to think about the world that

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Speaker 3: was rooted in data, in evidence, in decision making. And

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Speaker 3: they may marry to another economist and makes it a

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Speaker 3: bit easier to operate your house like that.

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Speaker 1: For sure. I believe it. I believe it. Okay, what

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Speaker 1: is it about data that it seems that folks have

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Speaker 1: a tough time taking data that is out in the

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Speaker 1: world and then applying it to their lives. Like I

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Speaker 1: feel like oftentimes we have a difficult time assessing risk

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Speaker 1: when it comes to Okay, you just told me x,

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Speaker 1: Now take that piece of knowledge and I don't know,

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Speaker 1: put it to use in your own life. Like, I

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Speaker 1: guess this is more of like an informed decision question.

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Speaker 1: Can you speak to that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's very hard.

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Speaker 3: So one of the one of the issues is that

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Speaker 3: I think often, even for people who like data, we're

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Speaker 3: often expecting data to kind of tell us the answer,

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Speaker 3: and that's rarely true. You really do need to have

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Speaker 3: the data and the decision making combine, so you can

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Speaker 3: kind of frame the data inside some trade off, some

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Speaker 3: costs and benefits. But there's a second thing to what

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Speaker 3: you're saying is really really important, which is that people

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Speaker 3: are very very bad at understanding risk. And many of

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Speaker 3: the decisions that we make as parents, as people do

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Speaker 3: involve needing to understand something about risks and something about

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Speaker 3: small probabilities and risks. And that's something that just the

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Speaker 3: human brain is not very well suited to process.

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Speaker 1: Almost like we need some interpretive help after the data,

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Speaker 1: after we like organize some of the data, which it

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Speaker 1: seems like it is like a big part of your

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Speaker 1: mission too. And I've heard you say that the evidence

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Speaker 1: is severely lacking in a lot of the parenting tips

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Speaker 1: that end up kind of taking on this air of

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Speaker 1: gospel truth that a lot of people they tend to

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Speaker 1: subscribe to something just because it feels like common knowledge.

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Speaker 1: Was there like this treasure trove of helpful data that

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Speaker 1: just wasn't being used properly. Was there a bunch of

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Speaker 1: stuff that would have helped inform us that we just

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Speaker 1: were completely unaware of?

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Speaker 2: Not both?

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Speaker 3: And I guess, I mean there's more data out in

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Speaker 3: the world than people are probably using. I think the

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Speaker 3: reality is when you dig into the data, particularly around

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Speaker 3: a lot of these parenting topics, it turns out there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of good ways to do it. And so

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Speaker 3: some of what's happening is people are saying this is

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Speaker 3: the only way to do it, and then when you

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Speaker 3: look in the data, it's like, actually, it's not really

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Speaker 3: clear that's any better than any other way, or if

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Speaker 3: it is it's only a tiny amount, like a tiny

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Speaker 3: effect on one random outcome. So I think some of

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Speaker 3: this is that people just overinterpret their own experiences or

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Speaker 3: they want to be they want their parenting style to

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Speaker 3: be so right that it's right for everybody, and that

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Speaker 3: kind of leads to over overstatement of the value of

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Speaker 3: certain behaviors. But there are also a lot of things

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Speaker 3: in parenting where we don't have as much data as

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Speaker 3: we would like, as many people would like, and that's

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Speaker 3: frustrating in its own way.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense, Yes, it seems like most folks are

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Speaker 1: looking for objective truth when oftentimes maybe it's a little

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Speaker 1: more or subjective when it comes to some of these

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Speaker 1: I guess gray sort of stickier questions and that we

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Speaker 1: ask ourselves. But like, how much do you think personal

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Speaker 1: preference should actually play into in factor into some of

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Speaker 1: the parenting decisions that we make as opposed to kind

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Speaker 1: of like the one size fits all advice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think almost every parenting decision should involve your preferences.

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Speaker 3: I think the key for me is saying, look, let

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Speaker 3: me figure out what's the question I'm asking, let me

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Speaker 3: get the data that's relevant for that question, and then

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Speaker 3: let me ask the question with my preferences in mind,

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Speaker 3: and with the data as a way to support how

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Speaker 3: I think about the trade offs.

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Speaker 2: And so rather than saying.

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Speaker 3: There's a right choice or there's a wrong choice, there's

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Speaker 3: a right choice for you, and you could make that

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Speaker 3: decision in a better or worse way for you. But

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Speaker 3: it is your preferences that should influence that, not what

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Speaker 3: somebody else down the street is doing.

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Speaker 1: So part of the reason you kind of started this

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Speaker 1: endeavor fourteen years ago was one because you were interested

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Speaker 1: in data, right, but also because you're becoming a mom,

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Speaker 1: and I'm curious you were studying, checking out these studies,

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Speaker 1: digging into the research. What did you find that impacted

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Speaker 1: the way you parented, whether in those early years or

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Speaker 1: now that your kids have gotten to be a little

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Speaker 1: bit older.

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Speaker 3: So my first book is about pregnancy, and I would

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Speaker 3: say that so many of the decisions that I made

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Speaker 3: while it was pregnant were influenced by the research I

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Speaker 3: did for the book. So you know, there's a whole

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Speaker 3: portion of the book about prenatal testing, which I really

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Speaker 3: kind of effectively wrote while I was doing it. So

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Speaker 3: it was like my own exploration of the data while

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Speaker 3: I was trying to serve my own parenting. They are

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Speaker 3: my own pregnancy.

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Speaker 2: When I then had a kid.

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Speaker 3: I didn't write the book about early parenting until my

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Speaker 3: second kid because with the first kid, it was just

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Speaker 3: like do whatever mess things up? All the time? Panic constantly? Yes,

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Speaker 3: And I don't know if this sounds familiar from your first.

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Speaker 1: Kid, Oh for sure indeed, but it was.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting because I think it was very hard to

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Speaker 3: have the perspective from the standpoint of a first kid

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Speaker 3: to be like, okay, let me dial down to what

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Speaker 3: are the important decisions, Like what do I really want

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Speaker 3: to think about?

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Speaker 2: It was just like every day was another crazy fear.

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Speaker 3: And when I had a second kid, and then I

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, now I can write this book because

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Speaker 3: now that I like, I've like dialed down to the

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Speaker 3: you know, eleven things I really want to make decisions about,

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Speaker 3: and that was much easier with kid.

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Speaker 2: With kid number two, I.

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Speaker 1: Like it, all right, let's dive into the dataly because

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Speaker 1: birth rates they are declining in the US, like in

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Speaker 1: a lot of the you know, most developed countries around

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Speaker 1: the world as well. Why do you think that is?

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Speaker 3: That is a sixty four thousand dollars question. It's a

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Speaker 3: really fascinating upsetting whatever it's the word, but it's a

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Speaker 3: it's this phenomenon is true everywhere. So it's not just

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Speaker 3: the US, it's not just developed countries. It's literally a global.

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Speaker 2: Decline in fertility rates.

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Speaker 3: And so a lot of the explanations that people might

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Speaker 3: come up with about you know, social supports or those

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Speaker 3: kinds of things in the US, they only go so far,

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Speaker 3: because you know, a place like Sweden has even lower

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Speaker 3: fertility rates even though their social support for parents is

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Speaker 3: far better. So that's probably not the answer. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure how much we really know what the

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Speaker 3: answer is beyond just people are saying, well, I don't

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Speaker 3: want to know. Oh, I don't want to have kids,

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Speaker 3: which isn't isn't really an answer to That's not really

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Speaker 3: an answer. That's just a kind of an expression of

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Speaker 3: what's happening such that we are getting fewer kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: What do you guys think you have a lot of kids?

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean I've got to think that, like you

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Speaker 1: keep seeing these headlines right like, like I think is

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Speaker 1: like a self fulfilling prophecy. Well, I don't I feel

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Speaker 1: like a lot of folks oftentimes are scared. Like I

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Speaker 1: have to think that the personal cost to us as

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Speaker 1: parents of having kids in modern life, the expense does

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Speaker 1: feel like it's gotten. I feel like that's got to

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Speaker 1: impact it, you know. I think there's more than that.

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Speaker 1: I think there's cultural elements at play too, And I

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Speaker 1: do think, yeah, like when you think about the decline

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Speaker 1: in religious observance and decline in the amount of people

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Speaker 1: having more character, that's going to be part of it too.

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Speaker 1: Like Israel like the one of the only countries where

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Speaker 1: there's actually like an increase when it comes to replacement rate.

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Speaker 1: But I'm curious, smily, like, how accurate do you think

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Speaker 1: some of those numbers are? I guess when it comes

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Speaker 1: to some of those headline numbers, you know, like I

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Speaker 1: mentioned in the intro, like there's a few that you

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Speaker 1: can fight that will say it's going to be over

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Speaker 1: four hundred thousand, But I feel like across the board,

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Speaker 1: you're looking at at least corn Yeah, at least two

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand. Do you think that those numbers

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Speaker 1: are kind of firm and fast? How flexible do you

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Speaker 1: think those numbers are? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I mean I think those numbers are are more flexible

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Speaker 3: than there are different ways to raise to raise a kid,

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Speaker 3: and you know, one of the things that has happened

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Speaker 3: is is we've gotten into a lot more intensive parenting.

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of things that are very expensive

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Speaker 3: that I actually think are not really the things that

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Speaker 3: our kids need the most. You know, so people ask,

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Speaker 3: like what's really important. It's like, you know, a safe

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Speaker 3: place to sleep, like enough to eat of like loving adults,

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Speaker 3: of some nature, supporting you like some books. These are

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Speaker 3: kind of the core things that we really need to

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Speaker 3: provide to every kid. But you know, travel, soccer and

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Speaker 3: like seventeen balle classes like that may be something that

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Speaker 3: you want to provide for your kid, but I'm not

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Speaker 3: sure that it is something we have to say, like

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Speaker 3: that's the way that you have your kid be successful,

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Speaker 3: and that's the only way to raise a kid. And

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Speaker 3: so there's more flexibility in that in terms of accomplishing

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Speaker 3: some of our goals of you know, raising adults than

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Speaker 3: there might be. But there is no question that kids

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Speaker 3: are expensive.

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Speaker 1: You just use the term intensive parenting, which I think

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Speaker 1: actually highlights probably goes back to the question you were asking,

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Speaker 1: And I do think maybe it feels like the stakes

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Speaker 1: are higher as parentcy stays. I don't know my mom.

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Speaker 1: We'll ask questions sometimes like why do you guys feel

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Speaker 1: the need to do all of these things for your kids?

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Speaker 1: She's like, we never did that stuff for you guys

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Speaker 1: back in the day. And do you think maybe that's

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Speaker 1: part of it too, that we feel like parenting requires

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Speaker 1: more than it actually does.

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Speaker 3: I think the way in which that interacts with the

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Speaker 3: fertility stuff is very interesting because I think we do

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Speaker 3: give people the impression that like the sort of only

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Speaker 3: way to parent, certainly in some sociodemographic groups, like the

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Speaker 3: only way to parent is in this way that kind

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Speaker 3: of totally almost raises you, but sort of where your

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Speaker 3: whole outlook is kind of very focused around kids and

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Speaker 3: there isn't really time the Surgeon General is talking about,

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Speaker 3: you know, parental stress is like a you know, public

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Speaker 3: health emergency. I think some of that comes from this

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Speaker 3: idea that we expect parents to be one hundred percent

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Speaker 3: of the time very focused on their kids. And then

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Speaker 3: if you look at that from the outside, like, why

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Speaker 3: would I sign up for that? And yeah, I can,

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Speaker 3: I can sort of understand that. I think the piece

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Speaker 3: that's missing and I always try to like convey to people,

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Speaker 3: is it's actually really hard to explain how much you

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Speaker 3: like your kids, Like, you know, it's like easy to

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Speaker 3: explain how hard they are, but like that, I mean,

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Speaker 3: do you remember, like when your kid was first born,

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Speaker 3: Like the just the love that you have is so

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Speaker 3: different than the experience that one has with any other relationship.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can't convey it in.

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Speaker 3: Language, and so outside other experience, how would you you know,

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Speaker 3: how would you explain? Well, it's not it's not like

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Speaker 3: it's not like saying, like a tuna sandwich is kind

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Speaker 3: of like a chicken sandwich, but tuna. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: like just a totally different.

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Speaker 1: Experience, like one vacation as opposed to a different kind

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Speaker 1: of vacation. Yeah, it's yeah, I remember. So it's funny.

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Speaker 1: You don't know Joel or I personally, but like we've

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Speaker 1: gone through life for the past fifteen years together essentially,

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Speaker 1: and we knew each other pre kids, but once we

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Speaker 1: we both had our first kids around the same time,

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Speaker 1: and I remember one of the conversations you know, I

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Speaker 1: had Joel was just like it's almost like I didn't

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Speaker 1: know how to love. Yeah, like to the extent that

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Speaker 1: I do now, and it's it's not something like and

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Speaker 1: your heart grew like six sizes kind of thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like there's new rooms in my heart for this

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Speaker 1: child in my mind. That's completely dependent on you as

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Speaker 1: opposed to you know, your spouse, And even that is

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Speaker 1: insufficient language, right from a macro perspective if we're talking

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Speaker 1: about and we want to get more into microdata too

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Speaker 1: with you, Emily, but when we're talking about this decline

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Speaker 1: in birth rates, there are society wide impacts, right, and

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Speaker 1: economic realities that we we stare down. I mean, think

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Speaker 1: think about like extreme cases like Japan of having a

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Speaker 1: lower population rate. Can you speak to that, like what

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Speaker 1: sorts of things happen when we choose as a society

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Speaker 1: or as a bunch of individuals essentially to have fewer

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Speaker 1: kids overall?

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean there's a sort of basic answer

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Speaker 3: to that, which is the sort of structure of the

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Speaker 3: age pyramid will change. And generally the way we have

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Speaker 3: operated societies is we're kind of relying on the younger

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Speaker 3: people in the society to support both the even younger

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Speaker 3: people but then also the older people. I mean, that's

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Speaker 3: how that's how most economies work, and economic growth tends

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Speaker 3: to rely on population growth, and so when we think

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Speaker 3: about both population decline and a population that is more

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Speaker 3: heavily weighted towards older people, it looks really different in

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Speaker 3: terms of what are the services people need, in terms

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Speaker 3: of what are the jobs people doing, and in terms

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Speaker 3: of the growth, and exactly what that will look like

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Speaker 3: is actually really hard to predict because there hasn't really

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Speaker 3: been a time in human history in which that the

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Speaker 3: society has been organized quite like that. We can look

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Speaker 3: to a place like Japan and say, you know, what's

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Speaker 3: what's happening there. You can see, you know, there are

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Speaker 3: a lot of particularly more rural areas that have you know,

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Speaker 3: mostly elderly people, and that's not been great for some

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Speaker 3: aspects of I think that not every people would say

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Speaker 3: that there have been some issues associated with that.

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Speaker 2: But again, like predicting how would the US look like

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Speaker 2: with that? How much is immigration matter? There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of open questions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true, all right, Emily, We've got much more

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Speaker 1: to get to all things kids and money. We're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about too, just how having kids, how that

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Speaker 1: can impact your career and more. We'll get to all

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Speaker 1: that right after this, I we're back from the break

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Speaker 1: still talking with Emily Auster about having kids and the

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Speaker 1: financial reality that comes along with that. Emily released a

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Speaker 1: book called The Family Firm. Let's talk about that one

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Speaker 1: for just a second. Your main premise in that book

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Speaker 1: is that a family should be run more like a business.

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Speaker 1: And I guess maybe this is kind of the data

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Speaker 1: intensities of you coming out, but in some ways that

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Speaker 1: seems a little counterintuitive running my family like a business.

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Speaker 1: Should I be charging my kids rent? I mean, what

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Speaker 1: does that look like?

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Speaker 3: So this is mostly about sort of thinking about how

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Speaker 3: we make decisions. And I think that the core insight

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Speaker 3: of the book, or the core idea in the book,

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Speaker 3: is that you know, when we are, particularly you know,

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Speaker 3: having a family with multiple adults and multiple kids and

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Speaker 3: a lot of different constraints on our time, that we

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Speaker 3: would do well to bring in some of the tools

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Speaker 3: from small businesses, which involve like how do you organize

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Speaker 3: your time?

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Speaker 2: How do you decide what's.

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Speaker 3: Important to you, how do you decide you know what

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Speaker 3: to do with the limited resources, be that time or

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Speaker 3: budget by and how do you optimize for the things

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Speaker 3: you most care about. I think that we even people

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Speaker 3: who really think about those things in their job are

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Speaker 3: often reluctant to do it at home, and it actually

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Speaker 3: can lead you to outcomes that you think are less

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Speaker 3: are less good than they would be if you had

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Speaker 3: thought more about them. So in some ways, the main

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Speaker 3: message of that book is just be a little bit

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Speaker 3: more deliberate about your decisions, like think more.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm yeah. Why, Like, why do you think that's

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Speaker 1: even necessary? I guess, Like, I mean, it clearly is necessary,

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Speaker 1: But it used to be sort of like we're saying

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Speaker 1: before that this was more of an intuitive sort of

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Speaker 1: thing that you kind of came together as a family,

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Speaker 1: or it's something that you had identified as someone who's

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Speaker 1: running the household. I mean, what is it about our

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Speaker 1: lives today that requires us to be, like, I guess,

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Speaker 1: a bit more proactive when it comes to how it

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Speaker 1: is we run our families.

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Speaker 3: I think at the core of real issue is that

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Speaker 3: people are busier. You know, it's more common to have

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Speaker 3: to working parents. Kids' lives are more busier and structured

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Speaker 3: than they were, you know, thirty years ago. And you

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Speaker 3: could say that's a mistake or not a mistake, but anyway,

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Speaker 3: it's what's true, and so what that means. And I

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Speaker 3: think this is where the deliberate decision making sort of

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Speaker 3: falls apart and then people are on iron unhappy. So

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Speaker 3: a lot of people will tell me like, you know, well,

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Speaker 3: we decided to do this activity, but actually it's like

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Speaker 3: ruined our lives because you know, it's four nights a

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Speaker 3: week and like we never have dinner together, and like

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Speaker 3: you know, it's like, well, what can you do?

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Speaker 2: And the answer is like, we could have just not

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Speaker 2: You could just said no. So I said no.

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Speaker 3: And I think actually, if you would step back from

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Speaker 3: that and been like, well, you know, what's really important

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Speaker 3: to our family is like getting to sleep at the

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Speaker 3: right time and having dinner together, you wouldn't have said

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Speaker 3: yes to that activity in the first place. And that's

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Speaker 3: that's the idea that we really have to decide what's important,

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Speaker 3: and then that's going to constrain our choices and like

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Speaker 3: that's okay.

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Speaker 1: I have some friends who came up with like a

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Speaker 1: family motto, like a.

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Speaker 2: Love a family mission, family mission statement.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that can kind of help be the

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Speaker 1: guiding light too, right, Actually write it down, put some

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Speaker 1: thought behind it, and then say these four or five

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Speaker 1: sentences represent us as a family, and then you might

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Speaker 1: say in the moment, oh, hey, this family wants to

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Speaker 1: have us over for dinner. It's a Friday night. Well, hey,

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Speaker 1: guess what. Our core motto's fun, let's go do it.

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Speaker 1: Or hey, our core motto is like togetherness and not

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Speaker 1: being busy. So actually maybe we're going to say no

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Speaker 1: to that. Do you think that's like that's probably a

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Speaker 1: really good way to help provide some of that guidance.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I think there's a bunch of different ways.

440
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,360
Speaker 3: There's like family mission statements, there's you know, write down

441
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,880
Speaker 3: the four most important things for you. There's a bunch

442
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 3: of ways to do that that can work. Different families

443
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,320
Speaker 3: are going to react friendly. But I think yes, getting

444
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 3: those core ideas now and then using them to kind

445
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 3: of come back to and be like, Okay, you know,

446
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,960
Speaker 3: here's here's how we're going to operationalize this because we've

447
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 3: all agreed this is what's important to us.

448
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,760
Speaker 1: Okay, So you are talking about being overly busy and overscheduling.

449
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:19,040
Speaker 1: The first episode of your podcast is about overparenting. Can

450
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,360
Speaker 1: you share the lessons that you were highlighting there?

451
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:23,400
Speaker 2: What really came about?

452
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,720
Speaker 3: So the first episode is about kind of giving kids

453
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,399
Speaker 3: sort of physical freedom having maybe we just need to

454
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 3: be less involved. And one of the things that came

455
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:32,760
Speaker 3: out of the reactions to that I thought was really

456
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 3: interesting was people saying, you know, hey, like this really

457
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,440
Speaker 3: resonates with me, but what you're describing would work in.

458
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,359
Speaker 2: A society where everybody was doing it.

459
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 3: So rather than saying like we need to change something

460
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,719
Speaker 3: in an individual level, I think there's a little bit

461
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,720
Speaker 3: of a push for saying like, how can we organize

462
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 3: the way that our neighborhoods or even our sort of

463
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 3: small like local kid friend groups are structured to allow

464
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 3: for more of this kind of unscheduled boredom time or

465
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 3: kids playing together without adults, which is really a lot

466
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 3: of what those a lot of what we were pushing for,

467
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:10,120
Speaker 3: at least talking about in that episode.

468
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 1: So you mentioned a second of kids activities, how they

469
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 1: can run us ragged, which is so true even if

470
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 1: you try to limit it, it can feel. I know

471
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 1: this from first and experience, like two soccer practices a week,

472
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,680
Speaker 1: two soccer games a week, that's just one kid, two

473
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,680
Speaker 1: kids each having one sport they're participating in, and those

474
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,440
Speaker 1: activities have become more expensive too. Is there any is

475
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 1: there any data I guess that can help us maybe

476
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 1: make a decision about how much of those organized sports

477
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: to put into our lives or not.

478
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:38,880
Speaker 3: So there's a little bit of data on the benefits

479
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 3: of extracurriculars, and it comes out it comes out of Europe,

480
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,560
Speaker 3: I think mostly, and it is based on kind of

481
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 3: extracurricular organizations inside schools and asking like how you know,

482
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 3: what are the kind of benefits to kids of participating

483
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 3: and in extracurriculars, And there are some They seem to

484
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 3: basically surround kids having a sort of social environment or

485
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 3: another setting in which they can excel or connect to

486
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 3: different kids outside of say school. So I think one

487
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:13,919
Speaker 3: way I often think about this is, you know, if

488
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 3: your kid is like struggling at school, but they really

489
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,360
Speaker 3: love soccer, then soccer is like a place for them

490
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 3: to sort of feel confident, to have a sense of belonging,

491
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 3: which is something that we know is very core for

492
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 3: kids for kids' mental health. When we look at the data, though,

493
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 3: it isn't clear that having more of that is better,

494
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,159
Speaker 3: right that like that, like you know, ten hours a

495
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 3: week of soccer is okay, but thirty hours a week

496
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 3: of soccer, like your kid's going to be super happy.

497
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 3: Like that doesn't scale like that, This is sort of

498
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,400
Speaker 3: about a smaller amount, And I think what that does

499
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 3: illustrate is some of the some of the key to

500
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 3: picking these activities is that they should be things your

501
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 3: kid likes and that your kid is like connected to,

502
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 3: because that's really where the benefit comes, not from, you know,

503
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 3: picking the activity that is going to you know, get

504
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 3: your kid into college because you've decided there's a shortage

505
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 3: of like tuba players and Yale this year.

506
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 1: So that is that does sound smart? What instrument are

507
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 1: no kids playing? Like? I'm going to pay strategy? That's right,

508
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: That's right. Why suck it up? You're going to play

509
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: that short? So this makes me think, Emily, like, I

510
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 1: feel like one of the things that I wrestle with

511
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: is I'm wrestling between spending money in the here and

512
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 1: now on something like activities or like enriching activities or

513
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: experiences that might broaden my kid's horizons versus let's just

514
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: say soccer money away into a five twenty nine account

515
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 1: where I'm saving for their future. How would you recommend

516
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: to parents to start to think through or to approach

517
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: that sort of decision making process right between the here

518
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: now or and I'm not even talking about generational wealth

519
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: right like that's I'm not even talking about that. But

520
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: even just like I guess saving for college that kind

521
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: of thing.

522
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's really hard and it's not

523
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 3: not a thing with an obvious answer. I think there's

524
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 3: a sort of simple way to think about money in

525
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 3: general as economists, which is, you know, like, what what

526
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 3: is the opportunity cost of this money? So like what

527
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 3: if I spent this money this way, what would I

528
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 3: be giving up in the future. And sometimes when you

529
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 3: do that exercise, it's like, well, if I didn't buy

530
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 3: this United spend money on this extracurricular now, it would

531
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 3: cost me you know, would be like less vacation time,

532
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 3: or it would be you know, less like savings when

533
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 3: I'm very old, and you can sort of think about

534
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 3: that trade off.

535
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 2: I think one one sort.

536
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 3: Of interesting caveat I would put to the way you're

537
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 3: thinking about it is you're framing this like I have

538
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: an envelope of money for my kids, and it's going

539
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 3: to be spent on the five twenty nine, and it's

540
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 3: going to be spent on extracurriculars. And so if I

541
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 3: take money out of the out of the extracurriculars, you know,

542
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 3: it goes into the five twenty nine And that's kind

543
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 3: of like keeping everything in one bucket. But actually, from

544
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 3: an optimization standpoint, you want to think about all of

545
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 3: your money being interchangeable. And so it's not necessarily that

546
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 3: extracurricular money substitutes for five twenty nine money. But maybe

547
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 3: extracurricular money substitutes for vacation money, or for new car money,

548
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 3: or for you know, like later retirement saving money.

549
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 2: So I think being a little bit.

550
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 3: Thoughtful about kind of what's the next thing I would

551
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 3: do with this money, what's the what's the sort of

552
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 3: marginal use of it as opposed to like, what is

553
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 3: something else in this category that it was substituted away from.

554
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 3: I think that's a that's a sort of important part

555
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 3: of financial.

556
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 1: Deal that makes sense. The fungible funds approach my personal

557
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 1: finances exactly one of the I feel like one of

558
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,479
Speaker 1: the biggest decisions that parents have to make. Married parents,

559
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: like whether or not they are going to go back

560
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: to work, stay at home, whether they're going to be

561
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 1: a two income household, and like what if folks need

562
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: to think through on that front. There has to be

563
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: a lot of data about not just reduced income, but

564
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: the impact on the budget, the impact on the children

565
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: from one of the one of the parents being at

566
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: home during those early years. Like, there's got to be

567
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: a bunch of things we're having to think through on that, right.

568
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 2: Yeah.

569
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 3: So I think the first place people often come with

570
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 3: this is they say, well, what's better for my kid?

571
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: And I think the sort.

572
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 3: Of reassuring news there is, actually everything is fine. So

573
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 3: impact send kids of having working parents not working parents,

574
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 3: they're very small.

575
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 2: They go in a variety of.

576
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 3: Directions, this is not the thing that should decide what

577
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 3: you do, and so they're sort of putting that aside.

578
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 3: There's actually like two relevant things. One is what people

579
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 3: want to do, and one is the financial implications. And

580
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 3: the financial implications are something you can you can calculate.

581
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 3: It's not like an easy calculation, but people can get

582
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 3: a sense of, you know, both in the short term,

583
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,959
Speaker 3: like how one person chooses not to work, what are

584
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 3: the implications for our budget, how does it change our

585
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 3: text burden? You can do a spreadsheet? And then the

586
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 3: other thing I think people don't always think about is

587
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 3: the future. So you know, what's the plan, Like, are

588
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 3: we talking about staying somebody staying home for five years,

589
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 3: for ten years, for two years forever.

590
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 2: That's going to have some implications.

591
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 3: And if you take time off, it has implications for

592
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 3: your you know, for your career path, for your kind

593
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 3: of how your income will grow over time. So those

594
00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 3: are hard but very tractable things to calculate. And then

595
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 3: this is really important, like people you should people should

596
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 3: think about like both adults in the household or all

597
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,959
Speaker 3: three adults or five. However, many adults you're experiencing should

598
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 3: think about what they want to do, like do you

599
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 3: want to work? What do you want to do with

600
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 3: your day? Going back to like being deliberate and thoughtful

601
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: about how you want to spend your day.

602
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 2: Yes, that's a really important question.

603
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you what do you want?

604
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 2: What do you want?

605
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: It's an important question and just to like own it, yeah,

606
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: you know, because I feel like oftentimes we justify it

607
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: with like, well it seems foolish to turn down this

608
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: opportunity or to not pursue this path of higher Eduica,

609
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: oh I got this. These are all things to consider,

610
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 1: but like, you don't have to say yes or no

611
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: to any of those things if it's not truly what

612
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: you want to do, Yeah.

613
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 3: No, and you can just say, I mean, I think

614
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 3: would be so much better. You know, this comes up

615
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 3: much more for women, although I think it hits for

616
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 3: men too. Like to be able to be like I,

617
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 3: you know, I choose to stay home with my kids

618
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 3: because that's what I want to do and because we were,

619
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 3: you know, able to make it work. Is should be

620
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 3: totally like reasonable, just like it should be reasonable today.

621
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 3: I chose to work outside the home because that's what

622
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 3: I wanted to do and because we were able to

623
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 3: make it work.

624
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 2: Like, those are perfectly valid choices.

625
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: And the economic trade offs can be significant. One of

626
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: my one of my male friends, he stayed home with

627
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 1: his baby for the first couple of years, and head

628
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: Hunter finally contacted him, was like, hey, we got this

629
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: job for you, and now he's going back to work

630
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: kind of like, I mean, I think he's making the

631
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: right movement. I think he's happy about it, but in

632
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: some ways he's like, he's he's going to miss so

633
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: I'd be having that time at home with his child.

634
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: So I think he's glad he had those couple of years.

635
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,239
Speaker 1: What is the typical economic impact though, Emily, of like

636
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: taking a couple of years off of work at home? Like,

637
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,479
Speaker 1: is it Is it a significant not just in lifetime earnings,

638
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: but in the amount that you're going to get paid

639
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 1: at that next job back.

640
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: It's very hard.

641
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 3: That's a very hard thing to answer, because it depends

642
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 3: a lot on what your job is. You know, there

643
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: are some there are some kinds of jobs where like

644
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 3: there's really a ladder and when you get off the ladder,

645
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 3: you never get back on. And we do see you know,

646
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 3: for women in particular, kind of the interruptions associated with

647
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 3: childbirth are are long standing.

648
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: There are other kinds of jobs where you can.

649
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 3: Hop back in and and you know, be able to

650
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 3: get back on a different on different path.

651
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: Nice. Okay, Well, we talked about pricey kid activities and

652
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: how we're oftentimes overscheduled, Emily. When the kids are old

653
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: enough to go to school, some folks I think they're

654
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: going to immediately default to just pricey private school. But

655
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: even if you can afford it, it might not even

656
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: be worth it. What factors would you encourage folks to

657
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: look at to focus on instead of just like, oh,

658
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: it's private, it's got to be better.

659
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 3: I mean, in general, when we summarize school quality actually

660
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 3: either private versus public, or like comparing different public schools

661
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 3: in different public school districts, we tend to focus on

662
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 3: test scores, right, That's like the thing you can measure.

663
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: And so the first thing I would tell people is

664
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 3: just when you think about quality, people are going to

665
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 3: tell you their test scores, and like that's one measure

666
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 3: of quality. But there are other things you might care about,

667
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 3: And it's worth kind of trying to write down, like

668
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 3: what's important to you in the school.

669
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: How much do you care.

670
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 3: About the diversity of kids your kid is interacting with,

671
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 3: How much do you care about the location of the school,

672
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 3: like what else is important? The other piece of this

673
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 3: is is the impact on your child of the quality

674
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 3: of the school is much less important than the impact

675
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 3: of you.

676
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: And that's just like, that's just true.

677
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 3: So if you said, like there's a difference in test

678
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 3: scores between these two schools of like twenty points twenty

679
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: testing points, the expected difference for your kid going.

680
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,719
Speaker 2: To those two schools is way way way smaller than that,

681
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: because you are really important.

682
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 3: So in some sense, like people can overstate I think

683
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 3: the difference for their kid in the in what they're

684
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 3: going to get out of these different kinds of schools.

685
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 3: We do have a fair amount of evidence that class

686
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 3: size impacts achievement. That's like the one really strong causal link.

687
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 3: So one of the features of private schools you do

688
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 3: have tend to have smaller class sizes. That's something that

689
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: people probably want to think about. But at the end

690
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 3: of the day, there's a pretty important fit aspect of this, and.

691
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: There are a lot of good choices.

692
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that makes sense. But when

693
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: you say that it's going to have a bigger impact

694
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: because of how you feel about it, is that just

695
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: because of the nuts and bolts aspects of let's say

696
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: a private private school and we're talking about your budget,

697
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: or are we talking about kind of the parents' emotions

698
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: and how they feel about the fact that their kid

699
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,959
Speaker 1: is receiving this nominally slightly better education. Are you just

700
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: talking about like reading to your kids at night and

701
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: how that means more.

702
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 3: Of that talking about reading, I think a lot of

703
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 3: this is just like what you are scaffolding at home matters.

704
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 3: A lot are their books in the house are there.

705
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 3: You know, you even look at something like what happened

706
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 3: to kids during the pandemic, like the kind of losses

707
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: for kids who are higher income, even within a within

708
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 3: a school, within a school district, we're much smaller, probably

709
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 3: because there are more supports at home to do things

710
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 3: like read.

711
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: Gosh, reading, that makes sense. Oh man, don't even make

712
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: me think back to the pandemic, learning the.

713
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 3: Zoo schools not. Let's just alide right past that for spirit.

714
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: And lighting stuff on fire on zoom calls, good times. Yep,

715
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: so many stories we could tell you.

716
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 3: I like the things where people like put a sticky

717
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 3: note over their camera and then relabel their name as

718
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 3: Connecting and then just that's it.

719
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: Was that something you saw a lot of with the

720
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: university students.

721
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know they just they just turn their

722
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 3: camera off and they're like, I'm my cot.

723
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: I'm out. Still so much PTSD from that are We

724
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: got just a few more questions we're going to get

725
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: want to get to with you, Emily, including allowances, screen time, smartphones.

726
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: We'll get to a few questions about that stuff right

727
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: after this. We are back for the break, talking about

728
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: the high cost or maybe the not so high cost

729
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: of kids with Emily Oster so cheap, so easy, so easy.

730
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: Not gonna say it's easy, but maybe it's not as

731
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: expensive as folks are making it out to be. Before

732
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: the break, Emily, we're talking about like elementary school, maybe

733
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: private education. Let's jump to college, I guess before before

734
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: we move on, how would you encourage families out there,

735
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: or even younger listeners who are looking to go off

736
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: to college, how you talk to them about the price

737
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: that they might pay for higher education, for college, or

738
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: even the debt that they might take on as they're

739
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: looking at maybe different degrees. Because I will say, like

740
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: one of the things we talk about fairly regularly on

741
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: the show is just hey, maybe it's worth looking at

742
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: the average income of what that degree holder might be

743
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: able to earn and keeping that debt in check. Is

744
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: that Is it as simple as that that piece of data.

745
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 3: I think that that piece of data is important and

746
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 3: is certainly like one piece of data you could look at,

747
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 3: you know, major in this major in that, like what's

748
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 3: the average what's the average income? I think the other

749
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 3: thing is, you know, thinking broadly about the range.

750
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 2: Of schools that you that you look at.

751
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 3: You know, there are a lot of places where the

752
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 3: state schools are really good and are often quite a

753
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 3: bit less expensive than the like that a sort of

754
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 3: comparably good private institution, And you know, just parents and

755
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 3: kids kind of being open to a range of possible

756
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 3: choices is important.

757
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: In episode three of Raising Parents, you took on the

758
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: topic of crummy food, which, my goodness, that's going to

759
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: get you in trouble with some executives certain food companies.

760
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: And it's a touchy subject. I feel like it's one

761
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: we're talking about more as a society right now. But

762
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 1: the highly processed foods, they can be more expensive and

763
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: eating too much of them can be really bad for

764
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: our kids' health. And I know, I think in the

765
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: beginning of the episode you talk about chicken nuggets maybe

766
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: and how or I don't know, maybe I heard somebody

767
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: else talking about this recently, but just how that's like

768
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: to everyone's shame, Like you don't talk about how many

769
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 1: chicken nuggets your kids eat because you just feel bad

770
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: about it. What was eye opening to you when you

771
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: were creating that episode.

772
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 3: So a lot of my academic research is about food,

773
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 3: and so this was an episode that I knew like

774
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 3: a tremendous amount about coming in, although it is still

775
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 3: always very surprising to me to think about the kind

776
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 3: of average diet that people are consuming, which is not

777
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 3: very good. You know, the share of people's calories that

778
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 3: are coming from ultra processed foods is very high. And

779
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 3: you know, I think, exactly what is the problem with

780
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 3: the ultra process foods?

781
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 2: Is it literally the ultra process nature.

782
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 3: Or more likely is the fact that these foods make

783
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 3: you eat more, and that that's itself an issue that's

784
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 3: really complicated. But the just the volume of the diet

785
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 3: that is this category and the low volume of the

786
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 3: diet that's like apples or anything.

787
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: With fiber recognizable food.

788
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's that's a shame. The other

789
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 3: thing and I you know, this didn't get as much

790
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 3: in the episode as I would have done if if

791
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 3: I were the dictator. But we talked to the guy,

792
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 3: a guy who runs food for a school district outside Sacramento,

793
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 3: and he talked with sort of incredible love about like

794
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 3: how he is trying to like get these kids a

795
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 3: very poor school district, how he's trying to like introduce

796
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 3: them to blood oranges and like other interesting foods and

797
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 3: how he's trying to engage them in the process of

798
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 3: making the foods and deciding what they should what they

799
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 3: should serve, and this I found this very inspiring. I mean,

800
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 3: I think unfortunately not everybody can have like a Vince

801
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 3: running their school lunch program. But it gave me a

802
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 3: little bit of hope, which was good as an antidote

803
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 3: to the other things.

804
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it isn't amazing how much priority we

805
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: put on test scores and what are kids learning in

806
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: schools and then we feed them. I've been shocked. Like, actually,

807
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: we moved school district a couple of years ago, and

808
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: the school my kids used to go to, an elementary school.

809
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: They literally grew food at the school, like and they

810
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 1: would go outside and tend to the crops and it

811
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: was awesome and the food was delicious and healthy for

812
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: the public school. Yeah, that had a chef, Like his

813
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: name was Chef Bradley. Yeah, that's what all the kids

814
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: called him because he was into it. And then we

815
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: moved up here and the things that are available for

816
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: my kids to buy for lunch is just insane. I

817
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: didn't know what a yogurt boat was until I kind

818
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 1: of like the kind of stuff that the kids can

819
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: eat for lunch, and then they're supposed to sit there

820
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: and like learn without behavior or issues. It's incredible.

821
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 3: No, I think you know, the idea that that kind

822
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 3: of these things are separable, I think is pretty problematic.

823
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 3: I mean, definitely kids learn better if they have eaten better.

824
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yes, not taking a holistic look at the child.

825
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: And I think I think was it that episode two

826
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 1: maybe I think you may have mentioned that seventy five

827
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: percent of money spent at grocery stores actually happens to

828
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: be on these processed foods, empty calories, as opposed to

829
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: the real food that you might find around the periphery.

830
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: But maybe a last quick question here for Jale. For

831
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: the kids, that's what I say, more yeah, oh yeah,

832
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: k more meat, more vegetables. Emily, what is your take

833
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: on allowance for kids? Do you think that there are

834
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: best practices out there? Because I will say personally, I

835
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: kind of fell off the allowance train. I want my

836
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: kids to earn like they don't. There's no preset dollar

837
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: amount for anything. They only receive commission when they're actually

838
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: out there out there working. But is that a good taker? Yeah?

839
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:48,959
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear your thoughts.

840
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 2: So there's no real data. So I looked into this.

841
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 3: There's no real data on you know, whether it's good

842
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 3: to give them allowance or not give them an allowance.

843
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 3: And people make very different choices about this. Will make

844
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 3: the choice you've described, which is kind of I'm gonna like,

845
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 3: you know, you can earn there are jobs, you can

846
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 3: earn some money. I think I do give I will

847
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 3: say personally, I do give my kids an allowance. And

848
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 3: the reason it is valuable is then they understand that

849
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 3: things cost money that they want. And so like my

850
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 3: son now understands that that like things in rowblocks cost money,

851
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 3: and like you, and he has a very small allowance

852
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 3: that he can spend on that stuff. And it has

853
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 3: sort of pushed a little bit of kind of monetary understanding.

854
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 3: But this is a place where as sort of getting

855
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 3: back to some of the stuff we said at the beginning,

856
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 3: I think very reasonable people will make different choices depending

857
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 3: on what works for their family.

858
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: All right, for real, last question, we were talking about ultraprocessed foods,

859
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: and that's one thing, but then I think the other

860
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: thing that parents feel guilty about these days is screen

861
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: time smartphones. My daughter's eleven, The smartphone conversation surprisingly has

862
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,879
Speaker 1: not come up to the extent I thought it would

863
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: at this point in time. How much screen time is

864
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: reasonable for kids? Yeah, where do you weigh in on

865
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: the when a child should get a smartphone debate?

866
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 3: So first let's start with screen time, because I think

867
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 3: there's a pretty simple way for parents to think about this,

868
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 3: which is, rather than focusing on the idea that screen

869
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 3: time is good or screen time is bad, or like

870
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 3: more is good or whatever it is, think about it

871
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,720
Speaker 3: as opportunity cost. So when your kid is doing screens

872
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 3: they're not doing something else. What else would they be

873
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: doing with that time? And when you think about it

874
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 3: like that, it's clear, like some screen time is fine.

875
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 3: You know your kid would be like dragging on your

876
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 3: leg while you try to cook dinner and screaming.

877
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 2: About how hungry they are.

878
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 3: Maybe it's better if they watch a half an hour

879
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 3: of television while you cook dinner. Like that's that's not

880
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 3: substituting for quality time.

881
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 2: If your kid's watching.

882
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 3: Eight hours of TV a day and they're not sleeping

883
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 3: and they're not spending time on their homework, that is

884
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 3: substituting for something important. So thinking about screen time in

885
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 3: this like where does it fit in my life?

886
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 2: Is a good idea.

887
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 3: Smartphones are so complicated and I you know, it's almost

888
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 3: impossible to say, you know, this is the right age

889
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 3: or the right because what is a smartphone? Is it

890
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 3: a smartphone with Instagram? Is it a smartphone without Instagram?

891
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 3: You know, I think this is a place where there's

892
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 3: no substitute for talking to your kid about managing.

893
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 2: Their relationship with the phone. I have a thirteen year old, so.

894
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: This does come up, okay on that Does she have one? Yeah?

895
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 2: Okay, but she does not have social media?

896
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: Yeah? See that's I feel like that's the key thing.

897
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: Think so too. You didn't get that one sentence this

898
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 1: is what I should do with my daughter out of Emily.

899
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: But that's why folks should go and listen to Emily's podcast,

900
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: Raising Parents. I really do feel like it should be

901
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: like required listening because the way that you're approaching all

902
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: these difficult Topicssemily is it's so incredibly helpful. It hits

903
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: close to home and certainly resonates with us with my

904
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 1: family for sure. But where can folks go to hear

905
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: that and learn more about you, what you're up to?

906
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 3: So you can find Raising Parents on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

907
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 3: any place you get your podcasts, and you can find

908
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 3: me at parent Data, where I write about parenting and data.

909
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: Good stuff coming out all the time there. Emily Osler,

910
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. We really

911
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: appreciate it.

912
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

913
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 1: We all right. Joel has a fun conversation with guest

914
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: Emily Oster. This was not a typical topic or not

915
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 1: a typical kind of episode that we we do a

916
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: lot more. I don't know. It's a judgment call as

917
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: to whether or not you want to have kids, and

918
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: I think she aptly was able to identify that that

919
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of personal factors that go into

920
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: whether or not you want to have kids. Yeah. Yeah,

921
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: she's an economist, so I always love talking to people

922
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 1: who think about money and data in terms of like

923
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: life and now we live life, cause that's just it's

924
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: really hard, I think, to mirror one for one, Like

925
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 1: she was saying at the beginning, the data says this,

926
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: so clearly my reaction should be this, And there's a

927
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: lot of interpretation that's needed inside of this subject. But

928
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: she does a good job. I think interpreting that data. Yeah,

929
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,399
Speaker 1: but did you have a big, a big takeaway from

930
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: our conversation today? I did? I think, I really like

931
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,800
Speaker 1: think what she said, optimized for what you care about most?

932
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: And she talked about, you know, especially the fact that

933
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: we all have limited resources, and so when we're talking

934
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: about what our family's going to do, whether or not

935
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: one spouse is going to stay at home, how many

936
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: extracurricular activities we are or are not going to participate in,

937
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: what our family dynamic is going to look like. What

938
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: do we care about the most? Right? And that's what

939
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: we talked about on this show a lot. Right, is

940
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: the why behind your money? What are you optimizing for?

941
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: And if you're optimizing for the biggest bank account, you

942
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: might be twenty thirty years down the line be a

943
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: little bummed maybe that you have eight million dollars instead

944
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: of four million dollars, because you could have made other

945
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: decisions in the here and now that would allow you

946
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 1: to enjoy your life to the fullest. So unless having

947
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: the biggest bank account possible was what you're optimizing pastor hey,

948
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: congratulations you did it. Yeah, but they might have like

949
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,399
Speaker 1: tired of listening to this podcast at the one time,

950
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: if that was what they were really going for. So

951
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess I just appreciate that that's

952
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: how Emily thinks about this, and I think it's a

953
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 1: good way for everyone to say, Yeah, what is our

954
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: family all about? What do we want out of our

955
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 1: existence together on this earth under this single roof to

956
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: look like? And once optimized for that, all those other

957
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: things are going to fall into place, and you're gonna

958
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: be able to make your trade offs. Accordingly, it's just

959
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 1: a much more thoughtful approach to live in your life.

960
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: When I was asking her about like why, I guess

961
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 1: when we're talking about the family Firm, which is her

962
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: more sort of businesslike approach towards running her family, and

963
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: what she pointed to was the fact that we're so busy,

964
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 1: And I think that's I think that's totally the case.

965
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: It's the fact that we've got other things that are

966
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: preoccupying our time. Like essentially, there are these other treadmills

967
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: in our life that we get on and then we're

968
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: going really really hard on those things, and I think

969
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: the net result is the fact that stuff at home

970
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: tends to fall through the cracks, and so what we

971
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: find ourselves is like we then get pulled onto these

972
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,760
Speaker 1: other treadmills, whether it be a soccer like a travel

973
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: league or with sports that also happens to cost a

974
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: lot of money, but more than that, it costs a

975
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: lot of time, a lot of energy. And instead, maybe

976
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: what should have happened was just just a hey, maybe

977
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: we need to sit down and think through what is

978
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: this going to require of us financially? What does this

979
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: require of us? From a time standpoint? What does require

980
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: what are we teaching our kids by the fact that

981
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: we're going to be joining this for the next semester,

982
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: for the next season. You're talking about counting the cost

983
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: ahead of time, right, And you're right. I've known people

984
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: who say, and this honestly, this is my momo to

985
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: say opportunity, that sounds like fun, let's do it. And

986
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: I haven't thought about how much it's going to take

987
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 1: from me, how much it's going to require for me

988
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 1: to participate in that thing. I've gotten better at it

989
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: over the years because I've burned myself too many times.

990
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: But this is a good proactive question to ask yourself,

991
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: is like, what is this going to require me? What's

992
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: this going to require of our family. And while this

993
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: might sound like fun, is it the best re use

994
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: of our resources? It the best use of our time?

995
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: What do we actually want out of life? And I

996
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 1: think when you're asking those hard questions, it's going to

997
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 1: lead you to some of those decisions saying, hey, soccer

998
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: is great, but maybe three nights a week is too

999
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: much and we need to join the league where it's

1000
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 1: one night a week something like that. Yeah, exactly, Like

1001
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 1: a good economist, she said the word opportunity cost a lot,

1002
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: which is I think it's something that we need to

1003
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: hear more often, because there are opportunity costs to everything

1004
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: that we choose to do or to not do. And

1005
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,879
Speaker 1: like you said, the ability to kind of forecast until

1006
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: like look off into the future a little bit and

1007
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: try to identify what it is that you're going to like,

1008
00:44:58,160 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: how are you going to feel about this thing off

1009
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,720
Speaker 1: in the future from a financial standpoint or from a

1010
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: life energy time standpoint as well. But yeah, really fun

1011
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: conversation with somebody who's much smarter than we are. Almost

1012
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: felt like shouldn't have had a statement during this episode

1013
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: just to be like, oh, yeah, we should be. We're

1014
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,720
Speaker 1: drinking tea to stimulate our brain as opposed to enjoying

1015
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: our craft beer, we're actually not so craft beer in

1016
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: this case. We got to enjoy an Octoberfest Marzen, which

1017
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: is a beer by how do you say that, enter

1018
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 1: ironger or anger. But this is like an old school

1019
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 1: kind of classic German lagger fall fest kind of beer.

1020
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: What we were thoughts, it's one of them octoberfests, Matt,

1021
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: which this is This is still the time of year

1022
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 1: for Octoberfest right here. Yeah, and this was like sweet

1023
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: caramel vibes perfect for fall. Honestly, it looks like the

1024
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: colors of a lot of the leaves that are on

1025
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: the ground around our smells like fall leaves. Yeah. Like

1026
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: even the smell of it made me think of kind

1027
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 1: of like the dry crisp leaves outside kind of tastes

1028
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: exactly like it smells like a combination of just classic

1029
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: beer but also some of those some of those fall

1030
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 1: vibes going on a lot of bready malts as well.

1031
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: Perfectly enjoyable for a beautiful fall day like today. I

1032
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,479
Speaker 1: think a lot of people who don't like craft beer

1033
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: would be well suited by trying an Octoberfest because it's

1034
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: got a little bit of that sweetness. It's it's not too heavy,

1035
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: it's but it's also not so light that it tastes

1036
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,399
Speaker 1: like the kind of cram. If you're turned off by

1037
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: your uncle's beer, this might be like a good one

1038
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: to tip your toes in taking an Octoberfest or a

1039
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: Marzen is like a gateway craft beer. Maybe because it

1040
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: kept the this week caramel vibes. I think a lot

1041
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: of people would be into that, even if they have

1042
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: had trouble acclimating to craft beer in the past. I agree, Yes,

1043
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: this is a good one. But we'll make sure to

1044
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: link to Emily's site as well as her podcast up

1045
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: in the show notes at howtomoney dot com. But that's

1046
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: gonna be a buddy. So until next time, best friends

1047
00:46:46,440 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: Out and best Friends Out.