Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello Whipsmarties,
Speaker 1: Welcome back for another episode. This one is I know
Speaker 1: I always say I'm excited, but I am so excited
Speaker 1: to have today's guest here. She is a recording artist
Speaker 1: that I love, but also a person that I adore
Speaker 1: and that I am so inspired by. Today we are
Speaker 1: joined by Maren Morris. She has broken boundaries, smashed records,
Speaker 1: and affirmed herself as a dynamic vocalist, prolific songwriter, showstopping
Speaker 1: performer all on her own terms. And she happens to
Speaker 1: be an incredible person in all of those ways, as
Speaker 1: herself in the world, as an activist, as a mom,
Speaker 1: as someone who is not afraid to learn out loud.
Speaker 1: And I am so excited that she's here to talk
Speaker 1: about her career, her songwriting, her history, her family, and
Speaker 1: her latest incredible EP called Intermission. In a recent interview,
Speaker 1: Maren said that Intermission is the disolation of the strangest
Speaker 1: year of my life. I decided to hit the scariest
Speaker 1: reset I could have ever conceptualized, and there is no
Speaker 1: looking back. The length one will go to to feel
Speaker 1: joy again or sometimes desperate and terrifying as I'll get out,
Speaker 1: but we deserve peace in this very short few trips
Speaker 1: around the sun. Here's my heart Journey and a gamut
Speaker 1: of emotions packed into five songs. I love this epiece
Speaker 1: so much. I feel so represented, I feel so heard,
Speaker 1: and I'm really excited to talk to Maren today about
Speaker 1: her journey to write it. You know, her experience is
Speaker 1: becoming an advocate, becoming a mother, going through a divorce,
Speaker 1: coming out. She has really been living so out loud
Speaker 1: and so courageously. She has been standing up for people
Speaker 1: in every brilliant way that she can, from beating back
Speaker 1: transphobia in the country community to standing up for black
Speaker 1: female artists in that industry as well, and really for
Speaker 1: reminding all of us that it's never too late. Let's
Speaker 1: dive in with Maren Morris. Hi, honey, I am so
Speaker 1: happy to see you. I can't believe that we get
Speaker 1: to be together just after we were all in Chicago
Speaker 1: for the DNC. How was it?
Speaker 2: It was amazing. I mean it was such a palpable
Speaker 2: positivity in the air in Chicago. I was only there
Speaker 2: that one day that I was performing, but everyone was
Speaker 2: just in high spirits, like even at the hotel. There
Speaker 2: was a dude that was outside of our lobby and
Speaker 2: he was like, Oh, I'm gonna just take my city
Speaker 2: bike over to the DNC, And I was like, cool,
Speaker 2: I love that for you. It was just you could
Speaker 2: feel like an energy in the air, which is so
Speaker 2: special to have witnessed like on the ground.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think for me, it was really interesting to
Speaker 1: see that shift because we've been fighting against something awful
Speaker 1: for so long, which is so important, you know, Like
Speaker 1: that's the point, right that we want to leave this
Speaker 1: world better than the one we inherited from our parents,
Speaker 1: for our you know, children and eventual children and their children.
Speaker 1: And I get why it's so important to stand up
Speaker 1: against what's wrong. And it also feels really nice to
Speaker 1: be standing up for what feels right, for joy and
Speaker 1: honesty and you know, everything from people's rights to a
Speaker 1: good economy, Like it's nice to have something to celebrate again.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It really is just this injection of hope, and
Speaker 2: I think that we were without it for so long,
Speaker 2: so when you have just a tiny dose of it,
Speaker 2: it feels like it feels like a drug almost. But
Speaker 2: I think with all the building blocks of what this
Speaker 2: campaign is, standing on and just the last you you know,
Speaker 2: eight years of Trump stuff and me sort of like
Speaker 2: existing within country music, Like my sort of public facing
Speaker 2: career has been in this window of maga. So that's
Speaker 2: just like an interesting thing that like my album came
Speaker 2: out in twenty sixteen, yeah, my first album, and just
Speaker 2: so the whole umbrella of it has sort of been
Speaker 2: under this this cult and yeah, just kind of navigating
Speaker 2: my way through that and then having my son four
Speaker 2: years ago right at the beginning of COVID, just so
Speaker 2: many things really crystallized for me as a mother. But yeah,
Speaker 2: being at the convention, having never been to one for
Speaker 2: it was really inspiring. Being able to listen to actual
Speaker 2: policy and not just uh, you know, it's not just
Speaker 2: celebrities like they're you know, are our congress people actually
Speaker 2: telling us what their plan is? It's yeah. And then
Speaker 2: also just what you said, like this this hopefulness and
Speaker 2: like positivity of it not be about constant jabs at
Speaker 2: the other side, really about bringing us together and divisive
Speaker 2: like I'm all about a SoundBite or like a funny meme.
Speaker 2: But and we got a lot of those moments from
Speaker 2: the team, But I think ultimately I was left with
Speaker 2: like a pang of hopefulness. So that's, yeah, that feels good.
Speaker 1: Me too, And I think about it a lot, you know.
Speaker 1: One of the things that's been helpful to me, because
Speaker 1: there's obviously so much morality in policy, right, Like we're
Speaker 1: either expanding people's access to rights, we're either protecting our communities,
Speaker 1: or we're hurting people, we're demonizing people. Like that seems
Speaker 1: so clear to me, and yet there are folks who
Speaker 1: want to say, like, well, that's not how you have to,
Speaker 1: you know, negotiate the future of a country. So then
Speaker 1: I started going, okay, well, how am I going to
Speaker 1: get you.
Speaker 2: On the math?
Speaker 1: Like how am I going to look at the numbers
Speaker 1: and make this stuff make sense to you? If you
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about morals, I'll talk to you
Speaker 1: about math. I'll talk to you about the economy and
Speaker 1: all the rest of it. And it's been really amazing
Speaker 1: to see the literal studies over the last four years,
Speaker 1: like the Biden Harris administration having to pull us out
Speaker 1: of the absolute bungling of the pandemic by the former president,
Speaker 1: the total nightmare of public health, you know, adding eight
Speaker 1: trillion dollars to the deficit, like, it's crazy when you
Speaker 1: think about the fact that twenty five percent of the
Speaker 1: entire US deficit, like in the whole, in the hundreds
Speaker 1: of years of our country, twenty five percent of that
Speaker 1: was created under Trump. And to sit here and go oh,
Speaker 1: since nineteen eighty six, Democrats have created fifty million jobs,
Speaker 1: Republicans have created a million. Like all this math, we've
Speaker 1: got the proof of it. And you've got these global
Speaker 1: economists talking about how, you know, after the nightmare of
Speaker 1: the supply chain and everything getting crazy when COVID started, Like,
Speaker 1: not only have our policies here helped our country get
Speaker 1: back to historic low inflation, but we've actually lowered inflation
Speaker 1: around the world. And like so many people don't want
Speaker 1: to talk about the math. It's boring. Like I used
Speaker 1: to go blank in the face when it was happening
Speaker 1: in front of me. But it makes me so proud
Speaker 1: because I'm like, no, we get to campaign on civil
Speaker 1: rights and joy and freedom and bringing everybody to the
Speaker 1: table and not demonizing our neighbors, and we beat you
Speaker 1: on the math. I love this.
Speaker 2: I just love this. It's like we had.
Speaker 1: Things to celebrate after four years of having to claw
Speaker 1: our way back from that horrible, hateful disaster, and you know,
Speaker 1: we were able to do it joyfully, and we were
Speaker 1: able to do it, as you said, with policy. And
Speaker 1: then like I got to see friends up on stage,
Speaker 1: you know, from Kelly Robinson who's the president of the
Speaker 1: HRCDU singing in that by the way, not political at all,
Speaker 1: but that perfect white suit. It was so beautiful, girl.
Speaker 1: I like I gagged in the best way and I
Speaker 1: just was like, God, it's happy to be happy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think you know, Kamala's team is who
Speaker 2: sort of chose the song that I was going to perform,
Speaker 2: and so I was going to ask, okay, yeah, I
Speaker 2: think it was down between like the middle, the bones,
Speaker 2: or better than we found it, which I'm really glad
Speaker 2: that they ended up wanting me to sing that one
Speaker 2: because you know, just this moment is so precious and
Speaker 2: I'm singing through the lens of the camera to my
Speaker 2: son and I was, I was, you know, kind of
Speaker 2: bring up like you know, it's it's politicized for sure,
Speaker 2: but something that really brought a lot of people together
Speaker 2: in Nashville, you know, which is a very progressive like
Speaker 2: blue dot in a red state and coming from Texas
Speaker 2: to Tennessee, being able to think of a lot of
Speaker 2: this sort of maga or just you know, growing up
Speaker 2: conservative too, like really being in a constant argument with
Speaker 2: family members and like longtime friends and like truly trying
Speaker 2: to understand each other. I lived right across the street
Speaker 2: last year from the Covenant shooting in Nashville, Oh my goodness,
Speaker 2: and having kind of been through like like Route ninety one,
Speaker 2: like playing that festival, you know, six seven years ago,
Speaker 2: the day before the shooting, and like it just really
Speaker 2: racking the country music community for so long and still
Speaker 2: so I have people in my meet and greets that
Speaker 2: are survivors of that shooting. And then to last year
Speaker 2: living across the street from Covenant and like having everything
Speaker 2: shut down for two days, not being able to leave
Speaker 2: our street, our home, like afraid of like can I
Speaker 2: get my son home from school that day, Like he
Speaker 2: didn't go to Covenant, but it was just like terrifying,
Speaker 2: And then driving past the six crosses. Every something happened
Speaker 2: like to the town obviously, but it brought women together.
Speaker 2: It brought a lot of mothers together Tennessee Capital the
Speaker 2: weeks following, and a lot of students that are now
Speaker 2: you know of age of voting age, so just yeah,
Speaker 2: being it is sort of coming together for me at
Speaker 2: the DNC singing that song which I wrote in twenty twenty,
Speaker 2: like after George Floyd's murder, Like it was just so
Speaker 2: many emotions and I didn't know it like affect me
Speaker 2: until we were live because you just you know, you know,
Speaker 2: like women particularly, we go into like professional mode and
Speaker 2: you're kind of impenetrable because you just have to like
Speaker 2: get the job done. But yeah, it was during the
Speaker 2: formants of Better Than We Found It at the DNC
Speaker 2: where I just like, after I was done, I went
Speaker 2: backstage and just like kind of fell apart a little
Speaker 2: because it's not like just a concert. I mean, this
Speaker 2: is really it matters and or this this event matters
Speaker 2: and it matters. So yeah, I mean it was completely celebratory.
Speaker 2: I was like gagging at Corey Booker's intro of me.
Speaker 2: I was I was just like, this is insane, Like
Speaker 2: I've never felt this sort of camaraderie in love, like
Speaker 2: from you know, a political party, but it's like politics
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, it's like they're it's
Speaker 2: they're people, the people with families with lives with things
Speaker 2: at stake, with wants and needs, and I think, like,
Speaker 2: you know, not to be cliche, but like I do
Speaker 2: think when I even talked to you know, my parents
Speaker 2: or people like in the South that you know, I
Speaker 2: don't know if they're going to continue voting for Trump,
Speaker 2: but they have in the past at least twice. It's like,
Speaker 2: I think there's something that feels like it's changing. And
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's just them supporting me as
Speaker 2: their daughter or if they truly were just like moved
Speaker 2: to listen to speeches that were happening last week and
Speaker 2: felt like maybe the dial moved. I don't know, but yeah,
Speaker 2: it's kind of interesting and fun to be like a
Speaker 2: part of that conversation and not just.
Speaker 3: You know, yapping about it totally well, and to show
Speaker 3: up right like even when you talk about, you know,
Speaker 3: when tragedy befell your community in Nashville last year, when
Speaker 3: when the shooting happened in Las Vegas.
Speaker 1: Like, I don't think it's coincidental that so often you
Speaker 1: see us show up. You see women show up, you
Speaker 1: see mothers show up, you see folks from marginalized communities
Speaker 1: show up, you see students that are hopeful about their
Speaker 1: future and also want to demand that they have a
Speaker 1: better future, you know than the ones that have been
Speaker 1: sort of sold out from under them by like greedy
Speaker 1: folks in power. And I think there's no denying what
Speaker 1: unity versus hate look like. And I think that was
Speaker 1: sort of like the most profound part of it for
Speaker 1: me last week was just you know, seeing everybody come together,
Speaker 1: and you know, even folks have forged friendships with like
Speaker 1: former Republicans who you know, ten years ago, you never
Speaker 1: could have convinced me I'd be having dinner with or
Speaker 1: regular phone calls with because I thought, oh, we're so opposed,
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, no, we actually all really believe
Speaker 1: in America and we love this country and and we
Speaker 1: just believe that everybody has a place here. And what
Speaker 1: an amazing thing to see folks stand up for country
Speaker 1: over party. That that gives me hope? I mean, does
Speaker 1: that make you hope that? Yeah, it is patriotic, and
Speaker 1: like I wonder, you know, you talk about your son
Speaker 1: and he's little, like, are those sort of the events
Speaker 1: that make you feel really hopeful for the world we're
Speaker 1: going to give to him?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think when I am looking at people that
Speaker 2: are just really really well educated, well spoken, you can
Speaker 2: kind of tell cut through the bullshit and know that
Speaker 2: like you believe them. I feel like we have a
Speaker 2: good meter for that. I think a lot of people do.
Speaker 2: And I think obviously what you were saying about the data,
Speaker 2: the math, that's all like the building blocks of proof,
Speaker 2: but so much of it, you know, with this like
Speaker 2: twenty four hour news cycle, I don't know if we're
Speaker 2: supposed to consume this much. Yeah, politics, it kind of
Speaker 2: fries your brain. And I don't like agree with what
Speaker 2: I understand when people like just put their heads in
Speaker 2: the sand. But it's like, well, whether you do that
Speaker 2: or not, someone's voting against you. So I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just something to put importance on no matter what,
Speaker 2: because it's it is such a powerful thing, your vote.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think just living is inherently political
Speaker 2: at this point. Like I can't I can't just be
Speaker 2: a woman in America and like just go live my
Speaker 2: life and you know, pump money into the economy with
Speaker 2: my voice and my my songs and just that be it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's so much more to me and my wants and
Speaker 2: my my morals and the things that I want to
Speaker 2: especially like not maybe especially because I don't want to
Speaker 2: like dismiss people that don't have children, but like I
Speaker 2: do think that there's something that like kicks in for
Speaker 2: me having only sort of been worried about myself for
Speaker 2: so long after like thirty years now, you know, living
Speaker 2: in this this moment in time with a four year
Speaker 2: old with a little boy, and as a mother thing
Speaker 2: a boy, there are things that responsibilities on me that
Speaker 2: come with that, and just constant antenna up of like
Speaker 2: who's he in interacting with? Like what are these ways that
Speaker 2: he's processing and downloading information? Like I don't know if
Speaker 2: he learns it from school or like randos, but like
Speaker 2: he's you know, they'll they'll start like it's just a
Speaker 2: natural thing for kids to do, like to gender everything
Speaker 2: and even that like that's a whole other conversation, but
Speaker 2: just well, you know, girls girls can like Spider Man two,
Speaker 2: Like I don't know who's telling you they can't, Like
Speaker 2: boys can like mermaids, and girls can like Spiderman. That's
Speaker 2: the cool thing about living is you can kind of
Speaker 2: like everything or not like something, and so it's just
Speaker 2: on a fundamental level, it's so interesting sort of like
Speaker 2: reparenting this inner child with a child that's having to
Speaker 2: live in like twenty twenty four, with like access to
Speaker 2: the world, and every thing just feels like so heavy.
Speaker 2: It's like I'm truly trying to armor him and also
Speaker 2: prepare him.
Speaker 1: Right. And now a word from our sponsors who make
Speaker 1: this show possible. I find it really interesting because it's funny,
Speaker 1: you know, just given the fact that last week was
Speaker 1: such a big event, that was the first question that
Speaker 1: came to mind for me. But normally I really like
Speaker 1: to ask people because I sit down with someone, you know,
Speaker 1: in an amazing moment in their career, like you're having.
Speaker 1: You know, you you had such an incredible, you know,
Speaker 1: rise in the music industry, and you know, I've been
Speaker 1: such a fan of yours for so long, and even
Speaker 1: to see how you've been navigating these recent years, like
Speaker 1: everybody kind of meets you and knows you as this adult,
Speaker 1: this performer, this woman. And I'm always really curious for
Speaker 1: people if from where you sit in your life, you
Speaker 1: can kind of see the through line to who you
Speaker 1: were as a young person when you were like eight
Speaker 1: or nine years old, and it's interesting to think about
Speaker 1: asking you about your childhood and how it led you
Speaker 1: here as you're talking about your own child, Like, I
Speaker 1: wonder if if when you look back at your young
Speaker 1: self in a way, you also kind of horseshoe around
Speaker 1: and look at your son.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really fun exercise to do that, and
Speaker 2: also it can be really triggering because yeah, you'll have
Speaker 2: a moment of oh my god, I sounded like my
Speaker 2: mother just now, and like you know, you'll have the
Speaker 2: rest of your life as a parent. But yeah, and
Speaker 2: they're just things that you know, I can as an
Speaker 2: adult now verbalized to him and articulate in a way
Speaker 2: that maybe my parents couldn't or their parents couldn't. And
Speaker 2: we just and that's just you know, the nature of life,
Speaker 2: and you know, technology and knowledge is we know more now.
Speaker 2: We have more resources now at our fingertips than our
Speaker 2: parents and their parents did. So a lot of that
Speaker 2: is just that part of the tools there, But then
Speaker 2: also the sort of network of mothers and parents and
Speaker 2: therapists and child psychologists and I'm just like all over
Speaker 2: those algorithms on TikTok. It's just inner child work and
Speaker 2: this and that. So there's a lot that I just
Speaker 2: even gained from like a sixty second TikTok sometimes, so
Speaker 2: totally yeah, and like the sort of therapy part of
Speaker 2: society now where we can just truly destigmatize needing help
Speaker 2: for your mind. I think the facet I went through
Speaker 2: was like postpartum depression. So that was like a huge
Speaker 2: fork in the road for me of like having to
Speaker 2: be you know, figure out some stuff that I hadn't
Speaker 2: uh before, and uh there was a lot more at
Speaker 2: stake because it's not just me I have to worry
Speaker 2: about anymore. So yeah, yeah, I think just like it's
Speaker 2: not fun work. It's it's really like looking under the
Speaker 2: hood and revealing things about yourself that you know, your
Speaker 2: your maybe your mind was protecting you from for decades
Speaker 2: and then you like step on the landmine and it
Speaker 2: blows your ego up. You know, yeah, totally, but it's good.
Speaker 2: It's good. It's all. It's all like really intentionally done.
Speaker 2: And you know, I am a lot lighter and I
Speaker 2: had to change a lot of like very huge things
Speaker 2: in my life to get to this day.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's beautiful though, you know, I it's really interesting
Speaker 1: because I think about it, especially when you've had these
Speaker 1: sort of big transformative journeys, and you have to do
Speaker 1: it in public. So many people get to just figure
Speaker 1: out their lives and do it like just with their
Speaker 1: best friends. They don't have to do it with the
Speaker 1: whole world watching. And I think one of the things
Speaker 1: that's been the most helpful as a mantra that I've
Speaker 1: given myself in the last eighteen months two years, really
Speaker 1: is it's okay that you didn't know. There are bridges
Speaker 1: you can only cross when you come to them. You know,
Speaker 1: you can think about your life, you can plan your life,
Speaker 1: you can think that you know where things are going,
Speaker 1: and then you get to that fork in the road
Speaker 1: and you realize, oh, I just wasn't prepared for this.
Speaker 1: I didn't know this would be what would be ahead
Speaker 1: of me. With all my best intentions, with all my
Speaker 1: planning and my coaching and my whatever, I didn't know
Speaker 1: this part. And I think that that is something that's
Speaker 1: so beautiful, and it's something I've really appreiated in particular
Speaker 1: about your new EP, about the way you've put intermission
Speaker 1: out in the world and the way you've been willing
Speaker 1: to talk to your audience about it, because you've you've
Speaker 1: really been upfront about the fact that sometimes in order
Speaker 1: to keep going, in order to keep living your life,
Speaker 1: you have to take it down to the studs and
Speaker 1: start over. And it's not easy to do that. A
Speaker 1: lot of people are afraid. A lot of people don't
Speaker 1: feel like they have the option or the power. And
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who stay because they can't
Speaker 1: bear the optics of leaving or choosing themselves. And I
Speaker 1: don't know, I as someone who's you know, also recently
Speaker 1: been through it, I was just like, we're out here, girl, Like,
Speaker 1: we're out here doing this. Was it like incredibly cathartic
Speaker 1: to write the new record? Was it necessary and hard?
Speaker 1: Was it kind of all all of the above? I
Speaker 1: guess maybe it's multiple choice answer d everything.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think, well, it depends on the song that
Speaker 2: you're for. Two of these five, I think, you know,
Speaker 2: this is how Woman Leaves, which is the last song
Speaker 2: on the EP, was probably I think I was still
Speaker 2: in a state of like like, I don't remember I
Speaker 2: don't remember writing that. Wow. I think I was in
Speaker 2: such a deep state of like shock, and again I
Speaker 2: think my mind was like protecting me from like the
Speaker 2: pain and trauma of that moment of my life. I
Speaker 2: remember like I remember editing it, but the actual creation
Speaker 2: of the song the day of no. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: it's strange what your your brain will do to well
Speaker 2: have full access to your verbal skills, but as far
Speaker 2: as memories, it didn't want to log that one. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I think Also it's I mean not to get into
Speaker 2: like crazy specifics because it's like, you know, I still
Speaker 2: have so much love for my ex and we are doing,
Speaker 2: I think, like a great job at co parenting, and
Speaker 2: this is all just new for us. But for me,
Speaker 2: I became I'm a different person now than I was
Speaker 2: five years ago. And I guess that's the part of
Speaker 2: like relationships and marriage that it's sort of like, well duh,
Speaker 2: like you grow with the person. But I can't like
Speaker 2: fault someone for I don't know, being shocked or disappoin pointed
Speaker 2: that the person that they married is just like completely
Speaker 2: different now. I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but
Speaker 2: for myself, like COVID like really changed me. I've been
Speaker 2: performing since I was ten, so unfortunately a lot of
Speaker 2: my and maybe you can like relate to this just
Speaker 2: being sort of like a young actress and like being
Speaker 2: in this guy like I wasn't in the public eye
Speaker 2: that much, but like I was performing and being you know,
Speaker 2: viewed as a performer since I was Yeah, like these
Speaker 2: really formative years of like building your your you know,
Speaker 2: your identity. So my identity like unfortunately, and I've learned
Speaker 2: this in therapy, was like extremely enmeshed with praise, just
Speaker 2: outside factors, completely removed from your own compass and like
Speaker 2: self uh just needing to be in control, needing to
Speaker 2: fall apart privately, but on the stage outward facing is perfection.
Speaker 2: So a lot of complexes built up at an early age.
Speaker 2: Something happened like in COVID, where I had been in
Speaker 2: this role of like success, like all my hard work,
Speaker 2: all my parents' support like for me as an artist
Speaker 2: as a kid, like finally culminated into this like successful
Speaker 2: few years of you know, having crossover hits and like
Speaker 2: number ones and Grammy and this and that, Like that
Speaker 2: was great. But COVID, like everything stopped for everyone. I
Speaker 2: was nine months pregnant, so just everything in my body
Speaker 2: was different, and I felt like I didn't feel or
Speaker 2: look like myself tried to give birth, like the same
Speaker 2: week the world's shutting down. They're like maybe threatening that
Speaker 2: I can't even have my spouse with me when I
Speaker 2: give birth, Like I mean, luckily that was not the case,
Speaker 2: but well, it was a complete mind for me. And
Speaker 2: then you know, having like this thing, all my tour
Speaker 2: get canceled that year, and just of course, like postpartum
Speaker 2: happened just circumstantially, but also the hormone part of it,
Speaker 2: it's like a really hard thing to self diagnose. And
Speaker 2: so I was just so lost for so long. And
Speaker 2: I finally, like you know, with the help of like
Speaker 2: my friends and family, got on like antidepressants and you know,
Speaker 2: was still doing like phone therapy through COVID and then
Speaker 2: just trying to like become a parent, you know, and
Speaker 2: take care of a newborn. And there was just no
Speaker 2: room left for like me, Yeah, and I couldn't really
Speaker 2: right via zoom. It was just really hard for me
Speaker 2: to connect with friends, like and try to write songs
Speaker 2: through that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That energy that you get creating with people is not
Speaker 1: the same through a screen.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So that was just like completely doa for me.
Speaker 2: And then just not being able to tour for the
Speaker 2: foreseeable future, like my I just felt like extremely futile,
Speaker 2: and I you know, there was a there was an
Speaker 2: interview you were doing on this podcast. I can't remember
Speaker 2: with who, but you were like, the burden is like
Speaker 2: sometimes well most of the time on the woman's work,
Speaker 2: you know, work you have to do mm hmmm. And
Speaker 2: this is my own like issue. But I went through
Speaker 2: like so many phases of trying to figure myself out.
Speaker 2: Through those like years, it was like, Okay, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: get an into deepressants, I'm gonna continue therapy, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: start playing tennis, I'm gonna do hot yoga, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: do this guided shroom trip. I'm going to go to
Speaker 2: London for like six weeks once it's open to go
Speaker 2: do so just to like get out of the States
Speaker 2: for a second and figure out what the hell is
Speaker 2: going on in my head. There's just like so many
Speaker 2: layers happening of change, yeah, and like desperation to figure
Speaker 2: out what the hell was going on with me. And meanwhile,
Speaker 2: like you're taking care of like a now two year old, Wow,
Speaker 2: you're having to like like you are not you're so
Speaker 2: back burnered on yourself, like yeah, or like just doing
Speaker 2: anything good for you because everything is like it's not
Speaker 2: worthwhile if it's not difficult, Like work.
Speaker 1: And young kids really put you in survival mode too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like when things start to deteriorate, like in
Speaker 2: a marriage or even in like a career. For me,
Speaker 2: I was having to like really address some biases going
Speaker 2: on in my genre of music. Like there were a
Speaker 2: lot of things happening all at once, and it felt like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I you have this guilt because you're like, I'm bringing
Speaker 2: this all on myself. Everyone else is trying to like
Speaker 2: tell me to chill out, and but it was like
Speaker 2: I had just woken up and I couldn't go back
Speaker 2: to sleep.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now from our sponsors, and when your whole
Speaker 1: self is calling to you and you actually have to
Speaker 1: hear it. I do think there's a really profound thing.
Speaker 1: I mean the way that like even just my chest
Speaker 1: feels when you're telling this story, My insides are like yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: Because I think when you grow up, particularly in any
Speaker 1: arena that encourages you to be a performer, you are
Speaker 1: taught to perform as a good girl, and you're raised
Speaker 1: in a society that wants girls to be pretty and
Speaker 1: quiet and sweet and take care of everyone else all
Speaker 1: the time. And you know, for me, I really had
Speaker 1: to start to examine the things that make me such
Speaker 1: a good coworker and such a good friend can be
Speaker 1: really detrimental to me and my one of one personal
Speaker 1: life because I put everybody else first. I check in
Speaker 1: with every department head in the morning. When I get
Speaker 1: to set, I make sure everybody's doing well, they have
Speaker 1: what they need. I will get to the end of
Speaker 1: a seventeen hour day at work and not have asked
Speaker 1: myself what I need. And when you learn to do
Speaker 1: that for your whole life, and then the world shuts down.
Speaker 1: And then whether you're going through a trauma like having
Speaker 1: a new baby or trauma bonding as I know I
Speaker 1: think I did, you can build. I mean, at least
Speaker 1: for me, I'll personalize it. I don't want to generalize.
Speaker 1: But I realized I could build on the anxiety and
Speaker 1: on the small kernels of possibility. I could make those
Speaker 1: things into a whole meal. And I love to commit.
Speaker 1: I love to show up. It's like, well, if we're
Speaker 1: going to do this project, let's do it one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: If we're going to take on this task, I want
Speaker 1: to learn the morals, the math, the national experience. I
Speaker 1: want to glean the most information so I can do
Speaker 1: things to the best of my ability. And the AHA
Speaker 1: moment for me was not having a baby. It was
Speaker 1: seven months of a fertility process where I went, oh,
Speaker 1: I've just never crossed this bridge before, and this is
Speaker 1: not a bridge I agreed to cross alone, and this
Speaker 1: is not what I want the rest of my life
Speaker 1: to look like. And everyone will say, what are you doing.
Speaker 1: You've just made this decision. It's only been a year,
Speaker 1: you know, that's not a long time. But the way
Speaker 1: I think about life is, yeah, life might be short,
Speaker 1: but life is also way too and long to spend
Speaker 1: it miserable. And when your body is telling you you've
Speaker 1: made your best efforts, you've literally tried everything, You've left
Speaker 1: no stone unturned, you've put it all on the table,
Speaker 1: and you're just not in the right place. Like if
Speaker 1: you're not in the right room, you got to leave.
Speaker 1: And I think it's a very disorienting thing to realize
Speaker 1: as a performer that you you can't perform your life
Speaker 1: in the quiet moments. And so when your brain, body,
Speaker 1: soul are calling to you to see that there is
Speaker 1: no more you can do, that it has to change.
Speaker 1: Like that's a that is a wild journey and for
Speaker 1: you to do that, Like I'm just thinking about how
Speaker 1: hard it was for me, Like regardless of what it
Speaker 1: might look like to the world, it was so hard
Speaker 1: and so painful and so exhausting. And I'm like, I
Speaker 1: didn't I didn't have to do it while also trying
Speaker 1: to keep a tiny human alive. So like, hats off
Speaker 1: to you, my friend. That is that is a journey
Speaker 1: and you you left no stone unturned.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you can't, Like there just is no blind
Speaker 2: spot anymore when you like take everything off your eyes.
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, the people that don't get
Speaker 2: it don't have to, Like they're not looking at the
Speaker 2: iceberg under the surface of the water. They're looking at
Speaker 2: what's And so I think, like also our intuition is
Speaker 2: like nine times out of ten, correct. I think that
Speaker 2: there's and it goes back to the performer thing. But
Speaker 2: the sort of gratitude and like empathy and all these
Speaker 2: things that you kind of are expected to have. There's
Speaker 2: also like the threat of loyalty. I have that deeply
Speaker 2: because I think that you know, it's a word, and
Speaker 2: I do think there's such a concept of loyalty is
Speaker 2: like truly put in the work with each other. But
Speaker 2: it has to be fifty to fifty. And I'm not
Speaker 2: just talking about you know, romantic relationships. I'm talking about
Speaker 2: like employees. I have sometimes, even most recently, remained loyal
Speaker 2: to a fault to people that like work for or
Speaker 2: me that don't best interest like maybe they just everyone
Speaker 2: has their own interests. That's the thing is, like you
Speaker 2: could be the best boss in the world you and
Speaker 2: this person has a completely like different, like set of
Speaker 2: standards for themselves and like priorities. So that learned with
Speaker 2: like my divorce and sort of like career separation has
Speaker 2: been that this is not like, not everything is your
Speaker 2: issue to fix.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not all your cross to bear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's really hard to unlearn when you've been
Speaker 2: like in control. Well yeah, it's a delusion of control
Speaker 2: or illusion and delusion of control. Yeah totally. When someone
Speaker 2: like hurts you, yeah, so deep, because you're not just
Speaker 2: thinking about how they hurt you, You're thinking about what
Speaker 2: did I do to hurt them? I cause this that
Speaker 2: is such a like common thing women are dealing with
Speaker 2: on the daily. So when you are selfish or self protecting,
Speaker 2: which I have had to become so in the last
Speaker 2: like year and a half, like truly not cut off.
Speaker 2: Maybe it could be red as cold or a belief,
Speaker 2: but I am I just don't give every everyone my everything. Now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I do that for my close friends. I do that
Speaker 2: from my son, I do that for myself, my family,
Speaker 2: but like everyone else, I I can't do that with
Speaker 2: everyone that I work with, work beside. I've just learned that.
Speaker 2: It's I don't think I'm closing down. I think I'm
Speaker 2: just like I'm protecting myself and not like I guess,
Speaker 2: like lowering my expectations of everyone you know around me,
Speaker 2: Like I hold the people close to me to a
Speaker 2: high standard, but like everyone else, I'm like, you're gonna
Speaker 2: get the like seventy percent version of me. Yeah, because
Speaker 2: I have to protect my energy and my heart and
Speaker 2: I am exhausted when I'm giving everyone my one hundred.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really really hard. I mean, god, you know,
Speaker 1: in the best way, but I felt that way when
Speaker 1: I got home, even from Chicago. It's like every person
Speaker 1: I saw, I was excited to see. Everyone has a
Speaker 1: great mission, everyone has incredible purpose, and I would like
Speaker 1: I got back here and I just crashed for the
Speaker 1: weekend and I was like, Oh, I forget how much
Speaker 1: showing up with my full self. Yes, it's amazing, but
Speaker 1: it can be really draining. And to start to learn,
Speaker 1: like you said, when you've kind of pulled all the
Speaker 1: things out from over your eyes, you've taken off all
Speaker 1: the blinders. I think part of the natural response to
Speaker 1: that and self growth is that you start to also
Speaker 1: have to learn boundaries. And it was like for me,
Speaker 1: I went, Okay, I'm going to come home and be
Speaker 1: with my partner and turn my phone off for the weekend,
Speaker 1: and that's going to really be important to me, Like
Speaker 1: I need to sleep and go in, I need to
Speaker 1: hibernate like a bear for three days and then I'll,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll get back into it. And it's interesting
Speaker 1: because that like metamorphosis, that shift that I think so
Speaker 1: many people went through in various ways, especially during lockdown,
Speaker 1: when I think about how much you had going on
Speaker 1: all at the same time, you know, with a new baby,
Speaker 1: with figuring out that perhaps what you'd built your life
Speaker 1: into wasn't really for you. You know. Also, as you
Speaker 1: mentioned your intense feelings, where the morals were in response
Speaker 1: to things happening in twenty twenty, like you know, I
Speaker 1: think about the fact that the song you performed at
Speaker 1: the DNC you wrote, as you said, in response to
Speaker 1: the killing of George Floyd. I think about how you know,
Speaker 1: when I met you in early twenty twenty three, I
Speaker 1: was like, first of all, my friends and I are
Speaker 1: obsessed with your song. We send each other videos singing
Speaker 1: the middle, like literally every single time it comes on
Speaker 1: the radio. But aside from the joy, like thank you
Speaker 1: for speaking up in your space in country music in
Speaker 1: defense of women like Mickey, you know, in support of
Speaker 1: black female country singers, like you know, you pushed back
Speaker 1: on Morgan Wallen for the horrifically racist shit that he said, Like,
Speaker 1: I know that couldn't have been easy for you in
Speaker 1: this world as you mentioned that you were raised in,
Speaker 1: you know, from Texas to Tennessee. The conservativism what country
Speaker 1: music often gets, you know, sort of used for or
Speaker 1: like the things people sweep under the rug in that genre.
Speaker 1: Like you were learning how to stand up for yourself.
Speaker 1: It seems as an individual to listen to yourself, to
Speaker 1: set boundaries for yourself, and you were like pushing back
Speaker 1: on a whole industry and saying this is fucked up.
Speaker 1: We're not supposed to be doing this, like don't we
Speaker 1: know better by now? And I guess my question listening
Speaker 1: to you talk about the lessons and the kind of
Speaker 1: realizations and how all these things call less at the
Speaker 1: same time, do you think some of the personal AHAs
Speaker 1: came from your clarity on seeing the world around you
Speaker 1: or did you see the world around you more clearly
Speaker 1: because you were seeing yourself more clearly as you began
Speaker 1: to deconstruct, like I call it the mythology of the
Speaker 1: good girl.
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: Or were they maybe just happening in tandem like a seesaw.
Speaker 2: That's such a great question. I think it was in tandem,
Speaker 2: because which is a lot. I wish one. It's a lot.
Speaker 2: I wish one had come before the other because it
Speaker 2: was a pard of maybe process. But I think it
Speaker 2: was just you know, life' it's just happening. It's dogtailing,
Speaker 2: it's it's threading, it's ribboning, and you're just there as
Speaker 2: a passenger sometimes And I think, Yeah, being able to
Speaker 2: articulate that is still tough for me because I just
Speaker 2: I feel like, yeah, not I hate really like using
Speaker 2: this word, but that is how I feel. It's just
Speaker 2: like traumatized, and I think, you know that's that's part
Speaker 2: of it. But I truly do think like I had
Speaker 2: to scare the shit out of myself. I had to,
Speaker 2: like what you mentioned earlier, take it down to the studs,
Speaker 2: reevaluate most of the relationships in my life. And what
Speaker 2: I'm left with, it's like it's leaned out in the
Speaker 2: best way, And I think kind of amazing what you're
Speaker 2: you're left with when you truly show people like who
Speaker 2: you are and they show you who they are, and
Speaker 2: all you can do is just like without regret, just
Speaker 2: be like, Okay, I want everyone to be happy. I
Speaker 2: want to have people first and foremost, Like I would
Speaker 2: like to be happy, because if I'm not, like, how
Speaker 2: am I going to show up for everyone else in
Speaker 2: my life the way I'm supposed to? And I do
Speaker 2: think it just took a lot of like years in
Speaker 2: work to realize that I don't have to be just
Speaker 2: in everything, like I can care and I can do
Speaker 2: my part on it and speak up absolutely like that's
Speaker 2: absolutely part of it. I knew showing up at the
Speaker 2: DNC was a statement and going to like lose followers fans.
Speaker 2: I'm surprised they hadn't been lost before. I think most
Speaker 2: people have known where I've stood, but I knew who
Speaker 2: I was singing to that night. Yes, yeah, watching, but
Speaker 2: I was singing to my son. That's it. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: can say, you know, without feeling guilt or like narcissism,
Speaker 2: that I am doing everything within my power to leave
Speaker 2: some version of this world better for him. Can't. I
Speaker 2: can't take everyone's responsibility on. I can only kind of
Speaker 2: focus on myself the environments that he's in that I do,
Speaker 2: you know, pay attention to and have control over. I mean,
Speaker 2: but other than that, he's gonna he's going to live
Speaker 2: like a life where I'm just like the lighthouse and
Speaker 2: I'm not like going to be there all the time,
Speaker 2: every single day moment with him. So even that is
Speaker 2: like losing control, and that's a big thing with myself too.
Speaker 2: Is just that's Yeah, that was what was revealed, I
Speaker 2: guess in my my shroom trip was like it was
Speaker 2: a nightmare, but it was like, yeah, you're not in control.
Speaker 2: We're going to strip everything down ego death Like you
Speaker 2: weren't in control, never were, never will be. And that's
Speaker 2: terrifying when you were like a child performer and that
Speaker 2: your sense of worth for so long. But as you
Speaker 2: mentioned before, it's like you learn really quick in these
Speaker 2: like sort of trauma moments as an adult, like who
Speaker 2: you are, and yeah, it doesn't matter who you are
Speaker 2: to people, like who you are to yourself, how you
Speaker 2: show up as a good friend, as a boss, as
Speaker 2: a daughter, this and that, like every version of yourself.
Speaker 2: I do think I know who that person is. And I,
Speaker 2: of course, you know, never want to like rock the
Speaker 2: boat intentionally, but I just know, like now with my
Speaker 2: family and you know, friends that you know sort of
Speaker 2: fell by the wayside, became like more superficial. They're not
Speaker 2: like the core people in my life anymore totally. I
Speaker 2: think they saw who I was and I've seen who
Speaker 2: they are, and it's not a bad thing. I think
Speaker 2: it's just like we don't need to continue growing together
Speaker 2: in the same way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now a word from our wife wonderful sponsors. Well,
Speaker 1: I think about it with you know, coworkers, friends, even
Speaker 1: relationships like I actually wrote an article about this a
Speaker 1: long time ago out I think it's really important that
Speaker 1: we start allowing ourselves to look at reasons, seasons and lifetimes,
Speaker 1: and sometimes you mistake a season for a lifetime. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you have to come to terms with the fact that
Speaker 1: you had a friend or a coworker for a season.
Speaker 1: And that's great. But like people evolve, they move past,
Speaker 1: they outgrow. Sometimes we mistakenly give, you know, more worth
Speaker 1: or weight to something than it was meant to have.
Speaker 1: And I think, again, especially for the performing daughter, that
Speaker 1: can be really typical. But I do think there's there
Speaker 1: is something really special about learning to love the world
Speaker 1: when you're learning to love yourself, because you realize where
Speaker 1: that if something is incongruous, you know it, and you go,
Speaker 1: wait a second. If I can see that that's wrong
Speaker 1: for my community, how can I tolerate it for myself?
Speaker 1: And vice versa? Like if I would never let someone
Speaker 1: speak about my friend like this in front of my face,
Speaker 1: how am I going to let someone in my community
Speaker 1: speak about someone who looks like my friend that way,
Speaker 1: you know, And I know that that comes with a lot,
Speaker 1: you know, certainly for me calling out you know what
Speaker 1: it was domestic terrorism on January sixth, the like, the
Speaker 1: increase an influx of death threats was so scary for me,
Speaker 1: And I know you experienced that after you spoke out
Speaker 1: about you know what Morgan Wallin had said, and I
Speaker 1: think about, you know, how I react differently to that
Speaker 1: sort of experience in the world now that you know
Speaker 1: the world surrounding me includes young children, and I know
Speaker 1: you went through that as a young mom, Like, how
Speaker 1: how do you process that? How do you handle that
Speaker 1: saying we shouldn't be cruel to other people makes people
Speaker 1: be so cruel to you? Like did it make you
Speaker 1: want to leave Nashville? Did it change the way you
Speaker 1: know you and your family that are back home in
Speaker 1: Texas have conversations about these things, or did you just
Speaker 1: have to figure out how to navigate around it and
Speaker 1: keep it pushing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think I've thought about this for
Speaker 2: years because when you're so in the middle of this,
Speaker 2: like eye of the hurricane, it's yeah, You're like, how
Speaker 2: are people this pissed? Like yeah, over like the criticism
Speaker 2: of cruelty? And I think it's because they're not only
Speaker 2: like defending the person that said this, but they are
Speaker 2: taking it personally as if I'm criticizing them, which I
Speaker 2: think says you know a lot more about their interpretation
Speaker 2: of criticism and what that content was. Then me as
Speaker 2: a person calling out someone using the N word or
Speaker 2: even like transphobia that I've criticized in the past that
Speaker 2: sort of like exploded in another wave.
Speaker 1: I get that too.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, it's never like I've begun this. It's like
Speaker 2: as someone that's appear and in the in the realm
Speaker 2: of this music industry, just being like, yeah, let's do better.
Speaker 2: That was a weird one, apologize, let's move on, like
Speaker 2: go back to the show. But it was in such
Speaker 2: a moment of time of like change in America and
Speaker 2: like having these hard conversations. So yeah, I mean, like
Speaker 2: the death threat portion for me as a young mother
Speaker 2: was yeah, obviously like scary, and it wasn't death threats
Speaker 2: against me, it was it was against my son too,
Speaker 2: So it's like, oh, wow, now we're involving the kids,
Speaker 2: the ones that you cared so much about. So it's just, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's incredibly dangerous and scary, and you know, you just
Speaker 2: open up a whole can of worms of crazy people
Speaker 2: and pundits that like, you know, make you, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: the kickbox the hell out of you. But I think
Speaker 2: that yeah, ultimately, yeah, it's like I I look back
Speaker 2: on what has happened, and I'm like I I've done
Speaker 2: a lot of like work on myself and tons of
Speaker 2: I mean, no one can guilt, trip me or make
Speaker 2: me feel more like shit than myself. So I'm looking
Speaker 2: at all the of that too. Yeah, like do you
Speaker 2: That's like being a woman is like no one knows
Speaker 2: how to criticize us more than each other or ourselves.
Speaker 2: So I that when I really looked at everything, the
Speaker 2: whole rap sheet of what had gone down the last
Speaker 2: few years in my vocalness, I'm like, no, I stand
Speaker 2: by what I said. I don't regret it, I don't apologize.
Speaker 2: I feel the exact same way as I did that day.
Speaker 2: What I maybe use the channels of Twitter again, Probably not,
Speaker 2: there's probably like more dignified ways to get my point across,
Speaker 2: but hey, it is what it is. Yeah, don't be racist,
Speaker 2: don't be transphobic, don't be homophobic, like all the things.
Speaker 2: Still stand by that. Like, so if you're expecting me
Speaker 2: to feel bad, no, I actually the only thing that
Speaker 2: made me feel bad was like realizing even in this
Speaker 2: community of music here in Nashville and I still live here,
Speaker 2: is like, oh wow, who will go to bat for
Speaker 2: you or people of color? And who will go to
Speaker 2: bat for them. Yes, I mean a lot of people
Speaker 2: just unfortunately as you learn, like in these industries or
Speaker 2: just life itself, it's like fear and sort of group
Speaker 2: mentality and peer pressure and money, you kind of learn
Speaker 2: really quick like who people side with it yep. But
Speaker 2: I've made some just incredible friendships and relationships musical or
Speaker 2: not through the last few years because it's it's terrifying,
Speaker 2: but it's also amazing when people know where you stand
Speaker 2: because you make relationships and friendships happen that maybe like
Speaker 2: I don't know, people judged a book by it their
Speaker 2: cover before, and now the world sees you as you
Speaker 2: are or as you've shown them, and beautiful things come
Speaker 2: from it. Like I've had so many incredible opportunities and
Speaker 2: friendships to the last few years of showing my full self,
Speaker 2: you know, the DNC being the most recent of them,
Speaker 2: you know, getting an award from GLAD and like just yeah,
Speaker 2: it's truly like connects with people and have them say
Speaker 2: like thank you for saying it all because maybe they
Speaker 2: grew up in the South and like yeah, grew up
Speaker 2: in an environment or went to a school where they
Speaker 2: were bullied and were made fun of for that thing,
Speaker 2: and I think that's it's obviously like still so tragic
Speaker 2: and heartbreaking, but when you find this community of people
Speaker 2: that have been marginalized, and you know, as as a
Speaker 2: musician and as a songwriter being like a conduit of
Speaker 2: people's emotions through my own, yeah, out into the world.
Speaker 1: If there's one thing I wish I could do, they
Speaker 1: would be to write music. Like it's so cool and
Speaker 1: you know, to your point, like what you have been
Speaker 1: able to represent for people, and I'm sure hear from
Speaker 1: people like I'm one of those people. Your you know,
Speaker 1: intermission is so special as an EP certainly, but like
Speaker 1: for me, I was like, oh, this is the album
Speaker 1: I needed, Like if I knew how to do what
Speaker 1: you do, this is what I would have wanted to
Speaker 1: write about the last two years, and like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm so curious about it, especially you know, because same
Speaker 1: same like the sort of public experience of coming out
Speaker 1: in one way or another, even for me where I
Speaker 1: was like, have y'all just like not been paying attention
Speaker 1: to my career or like any of my choices for
Speaker 1: the last twenty years. Well, I don't know, but.
Speaker 2: It's like.
Speaker 1: One of the things I thought so much about was
Speaker 1: to your point, like there are kids who get bullied
Speaker 1: over their identities, there are kids who kill themselves when
Speaker 1: they get outed, and like, you know, as someone who
Speaker 1: was you know, essentially being outed myself, I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I guess I didn't think I'd have to have this conversation.
Speaker 1: It would just be what it is. And then in
Speaker 1: a way it was like, well I want to have
Speaker 1: the conversation, and like, if you want to shame me,
Speaker 1: watch how proud I'm going to go out and be
Speaker 1: in the world.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, you can't weaponize it.
Speaker 1: No, I was like, watch me celebrate, watch me It's
Speaker 1: going to be delicious.
Speaker 2: And like when you.
Speaker 1: When you wrote Push Me Over with Muna, some of
Speaker 1: my favorite people also in music, it was fun to
Speaker 1: read about how you wrote it with that band after
Speaker 1: you'd gone on a date with a woman, but you
Speaker 1: talked about going through like by panic and it just.
Speaker 2: Made me like giggle.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, I want to talk
Speaker 1: to you about all of this, Like what where do
Speaker 1: you think that came from? And like how did you
Speaker 1: decide to turn it into part of the journey of
Speaker 1: the album, Like you made art out of this feeling
Speaker 1: of what I assume was sort of excitement and overwhelm
Speaker 1: all at the same time. Like, was that the first
Speaker 1: aha moment for you that you also liked women or
Speaker 1: do you think you had like maybe tamped that down
Speaker 1: a little bit growing up in a conservative community.
Speaker 2: I just want to know all the things.
Speaker 1: I have so many questions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was something I always knew about
Speaker 2: myself because the day I was writing this song with Muna,
Speaker 2: having just come from this date the night before with
Speaker 2: this beautiful woman in La, like everyone in La is
Speaker 2: also like beautiful, so like dating again just like crazy.
Speaker 2: But yeah, they were asking like when did you know?
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, I think I've always known,
Speaker 2: because you know, every girl is different. But like in
Speaker 2: like you're high in high school. I just remember being
Speaker 2: at like sleepovers where maybe like a ton of us girls,
Speaker 2: some of us are super close, some of us are
Speaker 2: like just meaning for a time or maybe like summer camp,
Speaker 2: like we're just like Gayer. Yeah, you're just like Okay,
Speaker 2: you're cute, and then you like have this bond and
Speaker 2: there's something so tough to identify because women are just
Speaker 2: innately well, we're wonderful and like we're lovely well, and
Speaker 2: we just don't like small talk. From like age of
Speaker 2: eight to now, it's really hard sometimes for me to
Speaker 2: delineate my sexual attraction or just my like love of women,
Speaker 2: because if I say, like with you, there's no small talk,
Speaker 2: there's no bullshit. We immediately dive into something like really
Speaker 2: meaningful and deep because we don't have to do this
Speaker 2: like gay chicken for hours that boys probably have to do,
Speaker 2: like you know, they can't like a great men like sys.
Speaker 2: Men can't not just admit to each other like yeah,
Speaker 2: this guy's hot, Like they can't do it. So when
Speaker 2: hours like on a golf course, and you'll you'll be like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, if I'd spent one hour with a
Speaker 2: woman on a golf course, we would be talking about
Speaker 2: our mothers. We'd be talking about some crazy trauma from
Speaker 2: like third grade. I mean, we would just be getting
Speaker 2: into it. And so I don't know about you, but
Speaker 2: I've talked to like other women about this, and especially
Speaker 2: like bisexual women of like just knowing. Am I connecting
Speaker 2: with this person because it's just so easy and fun
Speaker 2: to connect with women in general? Or is it because
Speaker 2: I have a little crush? So that's sort of how
Speaker 2: pushed me over began was that sort of conversation. And
Speaker 2: then obviously like just feeling so safe in this room
Speaker 2: with Muna like and Tobias Jess. Just being able to
Speaker 2: like write a song about sex belonging but in a
Speaker 2: fun way and it not being serious or deep. That's
Speaker 2: what that was the breath of fresh air I needed
Speaker 2: in my life in this chapter of dating totally and
Speaker 2: truly like dating for the first time, because I've never
Speaker 2: really had that phase of my life. I've been like, well,
Speaker 2: two really long relationships, but.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and to be able to harness your giddiness and
Speaker 1: let it be fun again, like how lovely, how lovely
Speaker 1: to be an adult and to be like, oh.
Speaker 2: My god, I'm giddy. Yeah, and also maybe special displaying
Speaker 2: this multifacetedness of you know, just being a person in general,
Speaker 2: like being a mother, being in my early thirties, being
Speaker 2: recently divorced, but still like having these discoveries and I
Speaker 2: hope to continue having them till I die. I think
Speaker 2: that sort of being on display is so fun and
Speaker 2: refreshing because it's like not that I'm saying I'm like
Speaker 2: eighty years old, Like it's never too late, but I
Speaker 2: do feel like that with this EP. It's like, hey,
Speaker 2: here's everything going on right now, and there's more to come, obviously,
Speaker 2: but it's like the fun is never over, it's just beginning.
Speaker 2: And that's yeah. It's fucking terrified what we had said
Speaker 2: like an hour ago about you know this, this fear
Speaker 2: of leaving or this fear of starting over, and there
Speaker 2: are so many valid fears to that, whether it's financial
Speaker 2: fears of separation or divorce, or breaking up a job
Speaker 2: that doesn't vibe with you anymore. I mean, there's so
Speaker 2: many valid reasons you could all day say to yourself
Speaker 2: to stay because it's terrifying, Like it's it's nauseating to
Speaker 2: hit hit the reset button, and it's not even like
Speaker 2: a clean reset. It's like a complete implosion mostly and
Speaker 2: it's messy and there's shrapnel emotionally everywhere on everyone, and
Speaker 2: you're gonna carry guilt about that. I don't know if
Speaker 2: that actually goes away. I'm doing this so I'll find out.
Speaker 2: But I think the risk that you have to take
Speaker 2: to be happy after trying everything, yes, like you deserve that,
Speaker 2: and don't let anyone make you think that you did
Speaker 2: it on a whim or selfish, or you're jeopardizing everyone
Speaker 2: else's like life and future because of your own like
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. I mean no, I don't know one
Speaker 2: woman that did anything on a whim. They know we
Speaker 2: will go through every and exhaust every avenue to make
Speaker 2: sure something is truly not working.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors that I
Speaker 1: really enjoy and I think you will too. The thing
Speaker 1: that was really interesting for me to hear and like
Speaker 1: hearing you talk about it, and even having so many
Speaker 1: friends who all went through it last summer and like
Speaker 1: friends going through it now, overwhelming theme for everyone has
Speaker 1: been I should have trusted my guts sooner. It's never oh,
Speaker 1: I did this too fast, It's wow, I really dragged
Speaker 1: this out. I really like. I just I tried and
Speaker 1: tried and tried and tried until it almost killed me.
Speaker 1: And that that's something you know, like when we talk
Speaker 1: about what we hope to build right for the future,
Speaker 1: for the kids, for their kids, like I do hope
Speaker 1: as we start to embrace more of our full selves,
Speaker 1: we can start to build worlds where women don't like
Speaker 1: beat themselves half to death to stay like I really
Speaker 1: hope we can start to give ourselves more space to
Speaker 1: not be as you were saying earlier, loyal to a
Speaker 1: fault or loyal to the point of self erasure. You know,
Speaker 1: do you feel like, because before we move on from
Speaker 1: that topic, I'm so curious to ask, like, was part
Speaker 1: of the reason that you wanted to come out publicly
Speaker 1: because you knew you were like going to publicly be
Speaker 1: going on dates with women with men, and you you
Speaker 1: wanted to be able to like own it for yourself
Speaker 1: or were you just like it's pride and I feel ready.
Speaker 2: I mean a little bit of both. And I think
Speaker 2: you know, knowing that this song was going to be
Speaker 2: coming out too, I thought, yeah, well I can I
Speaker 2: can either just drop this song into the world and
Speaker 2: have people wonder. And I hate the like confusion, and
Speaker 2: I felt like I wanted to celebrate it. I didn't
Speaker 2: want to. And I also for myself, I just wanted
Speaker 2: to have everything out there, like yep, I think those
Speaker 2: are things that should be forward facing for me, not
Speaker 2: do you, but for me, I was like, my life
Speaker 2: is so open now, I'm not hiding any like any
Speaker 2: portion of myself. So it was it was out of
Speaker 2: like true like celebratory nature. It's Pride month. Yes, Like
Speaker 2: I also loved not doing a stupid press release or whatever.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh god, I was like, gag, let's
Speaker 2: just do. I was like, I'm just going to put
Speaker 2: it in like an Instagram caption, like on a tour photo,
Speaker 2: so like it could literally just look like, oh, here's
Speaker 2: where we played last night. Oh by the way, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm this letter. But no, I liked keeping it like
Speaker 2: lighthearted because it's like it's it's not a thing that
Speaker 2: is for me, a thing that needs like an entire
Speaker 2: spiel or article on Like I was like, but you're right,
Speaker 2: Like being in this sort of role of like never
Speaker 2: having dated, I'm probably going to be dating, you know,
Speaker 2: out in public. I would like to be able to
Speaker 2: do that without any sort of like malicious intent from
Speaker 2: you know, press or bloggers or whatever.
Speaker 1: So and they are wild yeah.
Speaker 2: And I truly doubt they even care.
Speaker 1: But I was just like, you know, just so I
Speaker 1: know that they do, I'll confirm for you they do.
Speaker 2: Well. I was like, some people know my views on
Speaker 2: the topic and my words here it is, so nothing
Speaker 2: gets twisted. So I'm so glad.
Speaker 1: It feels really good when you get to have agency
Speaker 1: over your own story. And I'm always happy when people
Speaker 1: get to have that, because you know, as a person
Speaker 1: who's experienced having it taken from me and then having
Speaker 1: to reclaim it. Like, I don't know, I just love it.
Speaker 1: I'm proud. It's like it's nice to watch for people
Speaker 1: who you know, you're a fan of or who you
Speaker 1: care about. And I don't know, it seems at least
Speaker 1: observing that it feels like a great moment and like
Speaker 1: the album has been so well received and the story
Speaker 1: that it tells resonates with so many of us, Like,
Speaker 1: having had it out now for almost a month, how
Speaker 1: does it feel for you? Is that there is that
Speaker 1: the reaction, this kind of overwhelming positivity and me the
Speaker 1: me too, Like I've been through that too.
Speaker 2: Is that.
Speaker 1: What you're seeing the most of Like does it feel
Speaker 1: really vulnerable? Does it feel really freeing?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean it feels really vulnerable on a few
Speaker 2: of the songs being out in the public, but like
Speaker 2: kind of what I had predicted when I was recording
Speaker 2: them and really trying to figure out what to put
Speaker 2: on this. I was like, I can already envision myself
Speaker 2: singing these songs live and like trying, laughing, connecting with
Speaker 2: people and by the thousands, and so I think, you know,
Speaker 2: for me, I do this now, like years in like
Speaker 2: for my own therapy, to get this out of my body,
Speaker 2: because like as a heavy impath, like when I don't
Speaker 2: exert that energy or if I stifle it, if I
Speaker 2: stay in a situation too long, like my body's hacking
Speaker 2: itself like a lot of like stresses the last few years,
Speaker 2: and like my hair will literally start to fall out,
Speaker 2: and like that's how much you hold in. And so
Speaker 2: I've just like learned to like truly express it in
Speaker 2: a way that I know is going to bring me
Speaker 2: peace and like it's never to hurt someone else. I'm
Speaker 2: not writing these songs for any other intention than to
Speaker 2: just heal myself. And the byproduct of that, which is amazing,
Speaker 2: but it's not my reason for doing this anymore, is
Speaker 2: that people can hear themselves in the story as well,
Speaker 2: and I think that that's a beautiful thing. I have
Speaker 2: no control over that, like whether you connect with it
Speaker 2: or not, that's not my job. My job is just
Speaker 2: to get it out. And I think that that's a
Speaker 2: nice sort of like responsibility taken off my shoulders. Is
Speaker 2: that like, yes, speak up, use your voice, write your songs, perform,
Speaker 2: show up when you can. But ultimately, like just again,
Speaker 2: it life's too short to worry about every single brain
Speaker 2: in the world's perception of you. That you've got to
Speaker 2: just figure out how to be happy and that will
Speaker 2: emanate to you, well, my son, to others, to the
Speaker 2: people that work for me, to fans, like that's an
Speaker 2: aw ripple and that's amazing. But there's there's a there's
Speaker 2: a selfishness that is absolutely warranted and healthy and and
Speaker 2: and ripples outward in a mattered way. Uh. And I
Speaker 2: think something that we don't get told enough is that
Speaker 2: when you take care of yourself, people get taken care
Speaker 2: of by proxy.
Speaker 1: Well, And it's it's that metaphor right of learning to
Speaker 1: put your own oxygen mask on first. And I think
Speaker 1: it's really related to that that phrase like people you
Speaker 1: teach people how to love you, and when you tolerate
Speaker 1: bad behavior to be nice, when you make room for
Speaker 1: you know less than you deserve, like you can just
Speaker 1: shrink yourself down so much that then you wonder why
Speaker 1: everything feels so small and painful. And I think when
Speaker 1: you get free, you inspire other people to get free,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's a beautiful ripple effect. It almost feels
Speaker 1: like you just answered my next question. My favorite thing
Speaker 1: to ask everyone at the end is what feels like
Speaker 1: you are work in progress right now? And I wonder
Speaker 1: is it that? Is it that like choosing of self
Speaker 1: or is it a bigger thing although that's pretty big.
Speaker 2: That seems to be that the one like the main
Speaker 2: course for me right now is like boundaries, which are
Speaker 2: so hard to put in place with people that like
Speaker 2: benefited from you having them. Yep, So from you know,
Speaker 2: work to family to uh, employee, it's just everything like
Speaker 2: I think, like boundaries but still keeping my my heart
Speaker 2: open and having like a a curiosity and pureness about
Speaker 2: the state of the world, and like doing whatever I
Speaker 2: have to do on my end to retain that curiosity
Speaker 2: and beauty. I think that it's not that hard to
Speaker 2: find when you like, yeah, get all the distractions away
Speaker 2: and keep those boundaries set. So I know that's like
Speaker 2: very you know, therapy girl speak, But I think right
Speaker 2: now that has been because once you start doing it,
Speaker 2: you can't stop. It's so freeing because you're like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, I'm finally talking to people now in a
Speaker 2: way that I should have done ten years ago. And
Speaker 2: now I can breathe. Now I'm like sleeping nine ten
Speaker 2: hours a night, Like I'm not waking up at four
Speaker 2: am with like anxiety pit in my stomach. Like just
Speaker 2: it's finally like paying off those like people initial starts.
Speaker 2: So and I just I get to like receive love
Speaker 2: more now, like I've always received my son's love, but
Speaker 2: like and now he's four, so he can like talk
Speaker 2: and have conversations with me. So we just have this
Speaker 2: connection that you know, we've always had, but now it's
Speaker 2: more verbal. Just like truly being bowled over by the
Speaker 2: innocence of children and like having I just wrote this
Speaker 2: children's book with my best friend Karna, and like I
Speaker 2: think like even through that a portal that's not music,
Speaker 2: but still being creative and inner child work has been
Speaker 2: a really like huge dose of joy in my life
Speaker 2: and love that, yeah, and then just receiving like when
Speaker 2: people are truly like connecting with you, like even dating,
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, a lot of it is a nightmare
Speaker 2: and very like did but I think when you like
Speaker 2: find a little spark, it's like, oh, I forgot I
Speaker 2: could feel like this, this is not you know, I
Speaker 2: can still have this happen to me, even with all
Speaker 2: the protection and work I've done with myself, I can
Speaker 2: still like feel something with someone, like someone who was
Speaker 2: a complete stranger a few days ago, Like you know,
Speaker 2: something magical about that.
Speaker 1: There is I think, I don't know. It feels like
Speaker 1: a theme to me is that you can always be
Speaker 1: surprised and like you said, not to be cliche, but
Speaker 1: it is never too late. And so I think to
Speaker 1: I think, to be willing to lean into your courage
Speaker 1: over and over again throughout your life is a pretty
Speaker 1: beautiful thing.
Speaker 2: So well, it's been such an amazing thing to watch.
Speaker 2: It's just like you navigate your life and career and
Speaker 2: personal life just with the public eye and the scrutiny
Speaker 2: that comes with that, but also just like the power
Speaker 2: that you have and how you use it for deep
Speaker 2: connection with people and and for good yeah I mean,
Speaker 2: and then just seeing you like and your energy last week,
Speaker 2: I was like, girl, take your three days of like
Speaker 2: the curtains, because you exerted so much love and energy
Speaker 2: last week and like resource providing people with the actual
Speaker 2: data like that, that's that is not just like you
Speaker 2: hitting a button. That is like you using a lot
Speaker 2: of your heart and brain and everything to just show
Speaker 2: up in a way that you can. And so yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm you're a badass.
Speaker 1: You want as are you, my dear, and thank you
Speaker 1: so much that really that means a lot. It feels nice.
Speaker 1: It does take a lot of work, but it's like
Speaker 1: being able to use a platform in that way feels
Speaker 1: like such a calling for me, and I know in
Speaker 1: so many ways does for you too. And yeah, it's
Speaker 1: why I'm always excited when I see you in a room.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, because I know we're not going to
Speaker 1: small talk and it's always great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know we cannot small talk. I love that
Speaker 2: about us. O Maya.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for coming today, thank you for you know,
Speaker 1: sharing your heart and your art, and yeah, I'm always
Speaker 1: rooting for you.
Speaker 2: Thank you well, same love. It was so nice being
Speaker 2: on here, and yeah, I hope we see each other.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: I'm like, we need to do this without the mics
Speaker 1: and like a bottle of wine. Asa, Oh okay.
Speaker 2: Good, next time I'm in town, we should.
Speaker 1: I would love it all right, Okay, honey, you have
Speaker 1: a great rest of your day.
Speaker 2: Thank you you too, Thanks everyone,