WEBVTT - The Ozone Hole Was Solvable, And So Is Climate Change 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:25.756 Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. Back in 0:00:25.836 --> 0:00:27.756 nineteen ninety two, I was in the second grade and 0:00:27.796 --> 0:00:31.316 would occasionally watch this show on television called Captain Planet 0:00:31.356 --> 0:00:38.356 and the Planeteers The Power. It was a superhero themed 0:00:38.476 --> 0:00:43.236 environmentalist cartoon considered to be edutainment for kids. It fitted 0:00:43.316 --> 0:00:46.116 well with Bill Nye, the Science Guy and Reading Rainbow. 0:00:46.636 --> 0:00:50.476 Each episode was built around an environmental problem, often perpetuated 0:00:50.476 --> 0:00:54.516 by a super villain. Then the international coalition of Planeteers 0:00:54.716 --> 0:00:58.796 would fight alongside Captain Planet to literally save the world. 0:00:59.356 --> 0:01:02.356 The show was very on the nose. It covered topics 0:01:02.396 --> 0:01:06.556 like littering, pollution, and in one particular episode it talked 0:01:06.596 --> 0:01:10.236 about the whole in the ozone layer that chill Joy. 0:01:10.396 --> 0:01:14.716 Ozone layer blocks out the deadly rays. D fcs eat 0:01:14.756 --> 0:01:18.636 a hole in the ozone layer of Hurd's atmosphere, but 0:01:19.356 --> 0:01:23.556 without the ozone, the Sun's deadly ultraviolet radiation will pour 0:01:23.636 --> 0:01:30.676 down on us exactly. Supervillain Duke Newcombe and its flunky 0:01:30.716 --> 0:01:34.836 assistant who moved factories to Antarctica in order to open 0:01:34.876 --> 0:01:38.276 the backs of refrigerators and microwaves just to release the 0:01:38.356 --> 0:01:44.556 damaging chemicals. Those chemicals called CFC's or chlorofluoral carbons actively 0:01:44.596 --> 0:01:48.196 create the whole in the ozone Again, this is a 0:01:48.276 --> 0:01:51.396 kid show. I first saw this episode when I was 0:01:51.436 --> 0:01:55.316 in second grade, and I remember being really concerned. As 0:01:55.356 --> 0:01:57.916 an adult, I rarely hear about the ozone layer. I 0:01:57.996 --> 0:02:00.236 talked this up to lack of interest and the new 0:02:00.276 --> 0:02:03.796 cycle moving on, but then I realized it's because this 0:02:03.836 --> 0:02:08.196 problem was actually solved. We had this which you might 0:02:08.236 --> 0:02:12.156 call focusing event of this whole in the Antarctic ozone layer, 0:02:12.156 --> 0:02:14.716 which really in the nineties and certainly in the eighties, 0:02:14.956 --> 0:02:19.196 people were very, very interested in this problem. Kids really cared, 0:02:19.236 --> 0:02:22.836 and their parents really cared. Doctor Susan Solomon is a 0:02:22.916 --> 0:02:27.636 real life planeteer. She's an atmospheric scientist whose research into 0:02:27.676 --> 0:02:31.076 CFC's in the nineteen eighties showed that they were responsible 0:02:31.116 --> 0:02:33.676 for the whole in the ozone layer and eventually led 0:02:33.756 --> 0:02:38.356 us all to solutions. Public engagement, you know, when people 0:02:38.476 --> 0:02:42.476 get interested in something and really think about what things 0:02:42.556 --> 0:02:47.156 they can do, is often a very very powerful way 0:02:47.236 --> 0:02:50.756 to solve environmental problems. Now you know here it's solvable. 0:02:50.756 --> 0:02:53.116 It's rare that we talk about problems that have already 0:02:53.116 --> 0:02:56.076 been solved. So let's see what lessons we can learn 0:02:56.116 --> 0:02:59.396 from doctor Solomon and how they can be applied. I'm 0:02:59.436 --> 0:03:02.436 doctor Susan Solomon, and I never thought when I was 0:03:02.516 --> 0:03:05.236 young that we could solve the ozone depletion problem, but 0:03:05.356 --> 0:03:10.756 we did, and we can also solve climate change. I 0:03:10.836 --> 0:03:13.276 know that one of your earliest inspirations was the ocean 0:03:13.316 --> 0:03:16.756 explorer and filmmaker Jacques Cousteau. He was a big influence 0:03:16.796 --> 0:03:18.916 on you as a kid. Can you remember the first 0:03:18.916 --> 0:03:22.236 time you saw him at work? You know, it was 0:03:22.276 --> 0:03:26.796 one of those little old nineteen sixties black and white TVs. 0:03:26.916 --> 0:03:29.756 I was probably about ten, so even though it was 0:03:29.796 --> 0:03:34.196 black and white, I just could not believe how beautiful 0:03:34.316 --> 0:03:38.316 the undersea world of Jacques Cousteau actually was, and what 0:03:38.476 --> 0:03:41.276 an incredible thing it was that he was going down 0:03:41.316 --> 0:03:46.516 there to study sharks and whales. And that's when I decided, Okay, 0:03:46.596 --> 0:03:49.516 I'm going to be a scientist. And I never wavered 0:03:49.596 --> 0:03:52.436 from that view, and I'm so glad that I didn't. 0:03:53.196 --> 0:03:55.916 How did you make the leap from underwater science to 0:03:56.156 --> 0:03:59.196 atmospheric work. I thought at first that I would be 0:03:59.236 --> 0:04:03.596 a biologist, you know, I'd be a marine biologist like Jacque. Right. 0:04:04.356 --> 0:04:08.636 But when I got to college and was, you know, 0:04:08.756 --> 0:04:12.556 looking at biology, I didn't really like biology, but I 0:04:12.636 --> 0:04:15.756 really liked chemistry. What I liked about it was the 0:04:15.876 --> 0:04:20.276 exactitude of it. You measure out exactly how many milli 0:04:20.396 --> 0:04:24.756 leaders of one chemical you combine with another one, and voila, 0:04:25.316 --> 0:04:29.116 you know, you get some third thing and it always 0:04:29.156 --> 0:04:31.716 happens the same way. And I found that to be 0:04:31.796 --> 0:04:35.756 really beautiful. So I kind of fell in love with chemistry. 0:04:36.236 --> 0:04:37.836 Then I found out that there was such a thing 0:04:37.836 --> 0:04:41.076 as chemistry on a planet, not just in a test tube. 0:04:41.836 --> 0:04:45.076 And wow, that's what I decided I would try and 0:04:45.156 --> 0:04:48.396 go for. And it was, I think a fabulous decision. 0:04:49.116 --> 0:04:51.436 Doctor Solomon. In the nineteen eighties, you led a group 0:04:51.476 --> 0:04:53.996 of researchers to Antarctica. Tell me a little bit about 0:04:53.996 --> 0:04:56.916 that trip. By that time, I was already a young scientist. 0:04:57.076 --> 0:05:00.676 I was past my PhD. I was working for the 0:05:00.756 --> 0:05:05.476 National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. And this incredible thing happened, 0:05:05.516 --> 0:05:10.196 which was that some scientists reported that the ozone over 0:05:10.196 --> 0:05:14.716 Antarctica had dropped like a rock. And I was lucky 0:05:14.796 --> 0:05:16.836 enough to have the chance to go down there and 0:05:17.036 --> 0:05:20.836 take some measurements not just of ozone itself, but also 0:05:20.916 --> 0:05:24.036 other chemicals that influence it, to try to understand why 0:05:24.076 --> 0:05:27.516 that was happening. And as far as the experience, you know, 0:05:27.636 --> 0:05:31.196 it's often said Antarctica isn't a place, it's an obsession 0:05:31.756 --> 0:05:36.836 because everybody that goes there is so blown away by 0:05:37.036 --> 0:05:45.756 the other worldly nature of this remarkable, cold, remote crystalline 0:05:45.796 --> 0:05:51.716 palace that is Antarctica, and the constant reminders that you 0:05:51.876 --> 0:05:57.956 really are in the most unexplored place that exists still 0:05:58.436 --> 0:06:03.596 on this planet, and also just how small you are 0:06:03.756 --> 0:06:07.716 as a person, and how vast and wild nature is. 0:06:07.796 --> 0:06:10.836 I mean, there's no a greater reminder of that than 0:06:10.876 --> 0:06:14.436 when you're in a blizzard down in the Antarctic. Could 0:06:14.436 --> 0:06:19.116 you describe what's that like? Oh? Yeah, I mean down there, 0:06:19.356 --> 0:06:23.436 you don't actually usually call them blizzards. You call them 0:06:23.476 --> 0:06:28.076 herbies because it's a combination of a hurricane a blizzards. 0:06:28.476 --> 0:06:32.516 It became a herbie. It sounds cuter than it is. 0:06:32.916 --> 0:06:35.796 It's very dangerous to go outside in those kind of 0:06:35.796 --> 0:06:41.076 conditions because you literally cannot see more than a few 0:06:41.116 --> 0:06:43.716 feet in front of your face. So if you get 0:06:43.716 --> 0:06:46.516 disoriented at all, and you don't know which way is 0:06:46.556 --> 0:06:49.516 back to the hut that you came out of. You 0:06:49.996 --> 0:06:59.716 probably will die. And I know people who have Doctor Solomon, 0:07:00.076 --> 0:07:02.476 can you tell me a little bit about what ozone 0:07:02.556 --> 0:07:06.596 actually is and why you went to Antarctica to study 0:07:06.676 --> 0:07:12.196 there specifically. Yeah, so it was a real mystery when 0:07:12.476 --> 0:07:17.476 the ozone hole opened up. Ozone is O three, So 0:07:17.676 --> 0:07:21.156 three oxygen atoms stuck together is O three. Oxygen that 0:07:21.156 --> 0:07:25.396 we breathe is O two and very very different. O 0:07:25.756 --> 0:07:30.636 three absorbs certain wavelengths of ultraviolet light that are not 0:07:30.796 --> 0:07:34.116 absorbed by anything else. So it's absolutely critical for the 0:07:34.156 --> 0:07:36.876 evolution of life on the planet. If we didn't have 0:07:36.916 --> 0:07:38.636 an no zone layer, there wouldn't be any life at 0:07:38.716 --> 0:07:40.676 all on this planet, at least not life as we 0:07:40.756 --> 0:07:44.316 know it. If we have less ozone, then we'll have 0:07:44.436 --> 0:07:48.596 more skin cancer, we'll have more cataracts. Those are some 0:07:48.676 --> 0:07:51.636 of the most severe human impacts. But you know, what 0:07:51.796 --> 0:07:56.076 about plants, what about animals? You know, it clearly would 0:07:56.076 --> 0:08:00.316 have massive biological implications because ultra violet light. You know, 0:08:00.396 --> 0:08:04.596 anybody who's ever been sunburned or head cataracts knows that 0:08:04.716 --> 0:08:07.876 ultraviolet light is very damaging. So it was really a 0:08:07.916 --> 0:08:12.636 shock when the British Antarctic Survey reported that they'd seen 0:08:12.956 --> 0:08:17.356 a tremendous decline in the ozone layer over their station. 0:08:17.716 --> 0:08:20.076 It wasn't being seen anywhere else in the world. It 0:08:20.156 --> 0:08:23.476 wasn't being seen over the Arctic, for example. Didn't take 0:08:23.516 --> 0:08:27.316 long for the Japanese at their station to confirm what 0:08:27.356 --> 0:08:31.276 the British had seen, and eventually the satellites came in 0:08:31.356 --> 0:08:34.476 and were able to actually document the full scale of 0:08:34.516 --> 0:08:36.756 the thing. It's twice the size of the continent on 0:08:36.796 --> 0:08:39.476 the United States, I mean, think of that. It's just massive, 0:08:40.156 --> 0:08:43.076 and it opens up every year at the end of 0:08:43.116 --> 0:08:47.156 winter beginning of spring. So this was a huge mystery 0:08:47.396 --> 0:08:50.356 and we went down there to try to help figure 0:08:50.396 --> 0:08:53.076 out what it is by measuring other stuff, you know, 0:08:53.316 --> 0:08:56.076 and you could actually see that there was this huge 0:08:56.156 --> 0:09:00.996 bite taken out of the normal layer. So there's normally 0:09:01.716 --> 0:09:05.276 sort of a you know, if you turned it on 0:09:05.276 --> 0:09:07.476 its side and imagine it was a person, it would 0:09:07.476 --> 0:09:09.796 look like a big nose. Right, So there's this big 0:09:09.916 --> 0:09:13.636 layer of ozone and you know, somebody's eaten the nose 0:09:13.716 --> 0:09:18.156 off of ozone's face. Right, It's just it's incredible, So 0:09:18.476 --> 0:09:21.276 we should clarify this is not something you can actually 0:09:21.276 --> 0:09:24.036 see with your eyes right right, So you can't see 0:09:24.156 --> 0:09:27.436 ultraviolet light with your eyes, but we have sensors that 0:09:27.516 --> 0:09:31.636 can measure ultraviolet light. And since ozone absorbs in the ultraviolet, 0:09:32.076 --> 0:09:35.316 if there's less ozone, there'll be more ultraviolet, and you 0:09:35.356 --> 0:09:38.196 can quantify that and say how much it is. We 0:09:38.276 --> 0:09:42.316 could also, and this was really important, measure chlorine monoxide. 0:09:42.676 --> 0:09:45.676 And in my own group we measured chlorine dioxide, which 0:09:45.756 --> 0:09:48.756 is related to chlorine monoxide and that absorbs in the 0:09:48.876 --> 0:09:54.156 visible So all these different kinds of measurements by independent methods, 0:09:54.236 --> 0:09:58.436 they all showed that the chlorine was completely out of wack. 0:09:59.196 --> 0:10:03.756 And that was very suggestive certainly, and infect it really 0:10:03.876 --> 0:10:08.996 strongly pointed toward the idea that something about the chlorofluoricar 0:10:09.276 --> 0:10:12.916 in chemistry over Antarctica was different, and we knew that 0:10:13.396 --> 0:10:16.196 that was a potential cause, and it indeed it turned 0:10:16.196 --> 0:10:20.596 out to be the cause. So chlorofluorcarbons we call those 0:10:20.596 --> 0:10:24.076 CFCs as well. Would you talk about CFCs and remind 0:10:24.116 --> 0:10:28.596 listeners what those are. Chlorofluora carbons are a man made chemical. 0:10:28.876 --> 0:10:31.756 There's no natural source of these molecules at all. We 0:10:31.796 --> 0:10:35.756 make them in the lab. They were first discovered in 0:10:35.956 --> 0:10:41.676 around the twenties for use in refrigerators, and they're actually great. 0:10:41.876 --> 0:10:47.076 They're what makes the compressor able to cool the refrigerator. 0:10:47.436 --> 0:10:52.156 They're a great insulator. So styrofoam, for example, was blown 0:10:52.196 --> 0:10:56.116 that way back in the day. Home insulation panels were 0:10:56.116 --> 0:10:59.596 made that way. But the most important use at the 0:10:59.716 --> 0:11:03.156 time of the discovery of the ozone hole was still 0:11:03.356 --> 0:11:06.756 in spray cans, so the propellants that get the stuff 0:11:06.796 --> 0:11:09.996 to come out of the can. Now, the ozone hole 0:11:09.996 --> 0:11:13.716 wasn't discovered until nineteen eighty five, but in nineteen seventy 0:11:13.756 --> 0:11:18.676 four two scientists Malina and Rowland wrote a paper talking 0:11:18.716 --> 0:11:21.956 about the fact that these molecules might actually destroy a 0:11:21.956 --> 0:11:24.756 little bit of ozone someday. And they were talking about 0:11:24.796 --> 0:11:28.116 a small effect, a few percent far in the future, 0:11:28.396 --> 0:11:30.356 you know, a hundred years from now, kind of like 0:11:30.396 --> 0:11:33.596 the way people used to talk about climate change until 0:11:33.676 --> 0:11:37.876 maybe the past year or two or three, when climate 0:11:37.956 --> 0:11:41.196 change has become more obvious. But back in that day, 0:11:41.396 --> 0:11:44.556 you know, there was no observation that said it was 0:11:44.596 --> 0:11:51.316 already happening, but there was this theory and Americans were environmentally, 0:11:51.596 --> 0:11:55.356 I think it's fair to say very conscious and realize 0:11:55.396 --> 0:11:57.636 that they could do something really simple, which was go 0:11:57.716 --> 0:12:01.116 to their medicine cabinet and get rid of the spray 0:12:01.156 --> 0:12:04.516 on deodorant and buy the roll on next time instead, 0:12:04.996 --> 0:12:08.516 and that's what they did. It created an enormous kickstart 0:12:08.596 --> 0:12:11.916 because with seventy five percent of the use being for 0:12:12.036 --> 0:12:16.516 spray cans in nineteen seventy four, the American chemical companies 0:12:16.556 --> 0:12:20.796 suddenly found themselves, you know, in a terrible position. There 0:12:20.876 --> 0:12:23.556 was no market, you know, I mean it's like, whoa, 0:12:23.876 --> 0:12:26.676 The bottom dropped out of everything that they were trying 0:12:26.716 --> 0:12:29.796 to do with these chemicals. So from the point of 0:12:29.836 --> 0:12:33.476 view of the US manufacturers, the old stuff wasn't wasn't 0:12:33.516 --> 0:12:37.796 going to sell. So consumer action really was a fantastic 0:12:37.916 --> 0:12:40.356 kickstart when they had a huge effect on industry, had 0:12:40.396 --> 0:12:44.556 a few huge effect on the viability of that product. 0:12:44.916 --> 0:12:47.756 It's just, I think a wonderful testimony to the power 0:12:47.796 --> 0:12:51.836 of people. And I agree with that because I remember 0:12:51.876 --> 0:12:53.916 in the nineties, early nineties, I was in first or 0:12:53.956 --> 0:12:56.636 second grade, and I remember when that was all people 0:12:56.676 --> 0:12:59.036 talked about. They were like, hey, we got to save 0:12:59.036 --> 0:13:01.556 the ozone layer. Don't use CFCs, don't use spray cans, 0:13:01.556 --> 0:13:04.396 and they mobilized us children to go home, mommy, daddy, 0:13:04.436 --> 0:13:06.196 you gotta get rid of all the spray cants stuff. 0:13:06.196 --> 0:13:08.516 You can't use this anymore, especially if it's a CFCs. 0:13:08.716 --> 0:13:11.516 And I've remember on cans stuff used to say no 0:13:11.676 --> 0:13:13.876 CFCs if they didn't have it. It It was very popular 0:13:14.716 --> 0:13:16.396 at that time. And I remember we used to talk 0:13:16.436 --> 0:13:17.916 about the ozonel or a lot. There was a lot 0:13:17.916 --> 0:13:20.716 of buzz in the nineties about ozone depletion, But the 0:13:20.756 --> 0:13:24.636 climate conversation seems to have shifted. We're not necessarily talking 0:13:24.676 --> 0:13:27.996 about ozone depletion as much anymore. And I'm wondering how 0:13:28.076 --> 0:13:32.676 tightly linked are ozone depletion and climate change. It's not 0:13:32.836 --> 0:13:36.836 the major reason why the planet's getting hotter. The climate 0:13:36.956 --> 0:13:41.876 issue is mainly caused by our burning of fossil fuels, 0:13:42.116 --> 0:13:48.956 which produces carbon dioxide, and that carbon dioxide absorbs infrared light. 0:13:49.476 --> 0:13:55.356 It's because we've increased the carbon dioxide by oh, you know, 0:13:55.716 --> 0:14:00.516 the natural level that was there, say around eighteen hundred, 0:14:00.636 --> 0:14:04.196 would have been around two hundred and seventy parts per millions. 0:14:04.196 --> 0:14:06.516 So when a millionaire molecules, you'd find two hundred and 0:14:06.556 --> 0:14:10.036 seventy carbon dioxide molecules. Now we have something close to 0:14:10.076 --> 0:14:14.156 foreign fifteen. So you know, we've we've made a big 0:14:14.236 --> 0:14:16.956 change in the amount of carbon dioxide. And the one 0:14:17.036 --> 0:14:20.676 thing actually that the ozone depleting chemicals have in common 0:14:21.116 --> 0:14:24.956 with carbon dioxide is that they have long lifetimes of 0:14:24.956 --> 0:14:27.716 the order of fifty two hundred and fifty years. Carbon 0:14:27.756 --> 0:14:31.076 dioxide is even longer. Some of it goes away fairly 0:14:31.156 --> 0:14:35.276 quickly into things like plants and the surface layer of 0:14:35.276 --> 0:14:39.276 the ocean. But in a thousand years, twenty percent of 0:14:39.316 --> 0:14:44.396 the carbon dioxide that you or I know put in 0:14:44.436 --> 0:14:48.476 the atmosphere today by driving, for example, will still be there. 0:14:48.636 --> 0:14:51.436 Twenty percent of it will still be there, continuing to 0:14:51.476 --> 0:14:55.036 warm the planet. You know, to me, what matters in 0:14:55.196 --> 0:15:00.996 solving environmental problems is first and foremost the action of people, 0:15:01.236 --> 0:15:06.796 the interest of people. With enough public interest, politicians who 0:15:06.876 --> 0:15:10.636 care can get engaged with the problem because you know, 0:15:10.716 --> 0:15:13.396 they've got popular support, and in fact, they can force 0:15:13.476 --> 0:15:18.316 their opponents to get engaged. And that's that's happened already 0:15:18.356 --> 0:15:24.116 in both problems. I personally am very optimistic that the 0:15:24.276 --> 0:15:30.196 kind of public concern and power of the people movement 0:15:30.236 --> 0:15:32.116 that you're seeing is going to have a huge effect. 0:15:32.236 --> 0:15:35.116 And of course, you know, there's a role for science. 0:15:35.276 --> 0:15:39.236 I always say that science alone is never enough to 0:15:39.276 --> 0:15:42.836 solve an environmental problem, but it's always always necessary. So 0:15:42.876 --> 0:15:46.076 it's a necessary but not sufficient condition. You've got to 0:15:46.156 --> 0:15:49.476 be able to understand the problem. And I think that 0:15:49.516 --> 0:15:53.076 we do our best job in solving environmental problems when 0:15:53.076 --> 0:15:57.516 they're personal, when when people really care about them. You know, 0:15:57.556 --> 0:16:01.636 we cared about skin cancer. It was personal, it was perceptible. 0:16:01.676 --> 0:16:05.356 It was easy to see these beautiful images of you 0:16:05.396 --> 0:16:07.756 know how big the ozone hole is, you know, eating 0:16:07.796 --> 0:16:11.796 all of Antarctica. And we found practical solutions. We didn't 0:16:11.836 --> 0:16:14.916 have to give up having dealnorant You know, we could 0:16:14.956 --> 0:16:17.316 have roll ons and we didn't have to give up 0:16:17.356 --> 0:16:19.916 spreak cans. You know, we could we could actually put 0:16:19.956 --> 0:16:21.556 other stuff in the can. And we don't have to 0:16:21.596 --> 0:16:23.836 give up refrigerators. We'd have to give up any of it. 0:16:24.276 --> 0:16:29.076 We just had to develop practical solutions. And I think 0:16:29.076 --> 0:16:32.316 when you look at climate change, it's becoming way more personal. 0:16:32.396 --> 0:16:35.516 It's why there is this level of public engagement, way 0:16:35.556 --> 0:16:38.636 more perceptible. You know, the summers are warmer, for sure, 0:16:39.196 --> 0:16:42.796 and definitely it's dryer, and of course the fires in 0:16:42.836 --> 0:16:47.116 the West are terrifying, the flooding that happened this year 0:16:47.316 --> 0:16:49.596 in so many different parts of the world, whether it's 0:16:49.676 --> 0:16:53.916 China or Europe. So personal, perceptible, and the solutions are 0:16:53.956 --> 0:16:56.476 becoming practical. You know, I really think we are on 0:16:56.516 --> 0:17:10.636 the road to fixing this problem. I appreciate optimism. I 0:17:10.716 --> 0:17:12.956 do want to talk more specifically about the ways in 0:17:13.036 --> 0:17:17.116 which these movements happened. In the eighties, the same year 0:17:17.116 --> 0:17:20.436 you were doing research in Antarctica, the United Nations created 0:17:20.476 --> 0:17:24.716 the Montreal Protocol. Would you tell me about that time? Sure, 0:17:24.756 --> 0:17:28.676 the original Montreal Protocol was very clever. All that it 0:17:28.756 --> 0:17:33.636 required was that the growth of global use of chlorofloric 0:17:33.676 --> 0:17:37.676 carbons stops. So, in other words, they weren't saying you 0:17:37.716 --> 0:17:40.556 had to phase these molecules out right away. They were saying, 0:17:40.956 --> 0:17:43.356 don't make more next year than you made this year. 0:17:43.676 --> 0:17:47.236 You know, it wasn't that threatening to you know, things 0:17:47.316 --> 0:17:53.596 like refrigerator manufacturers or other users of these molecules. Yet, 0:17:54.276 --> 0:17:59.316 and it gave a mandate to the scientists really and 0:17:59.476 --> 0:18:04.676 the technologists report back to assess the state of the science, 0:18:04.836 --> 0:18:07.236 the state of understanding of what you could do instead, 0:18:07.916 --> 0:18:11.516 and when the diplomats met again in nineteen ninety, by 0:18:11.516 --> 0:18:15.316 that time it had become clear that the depletion over 0:18:15.356 --> 0:18:19.276 an Arctica wasn't unique, that we were actually seeing significant 0:18:19.316 --> 0:18:23.316 depletion over mid latitudes too, So you know, over Washington, 0:18:23.396 --> 0:18:26.916 d C. Over London, over all the different places in 0:18:26.956 --> 0:18:29.516 the world. You know, we have dozens of stations where 0:18:29.636 --> 0:18:33.556 ozone has been measured, So that of course created a 0:18:33.676 --> 0:18:38.756 tremendous amount of impetus to do more. And the other 0:18:38.756 --> 0:18:41.476 thing that was happening, and I think this is really important, 0:18:41.556 --> 0:18:45.796 is that just the fact that the protocol existed really 0:18:45.836 --> 0:18:48.876 sent a strong message to industry. You know, it said, hey, 0:18:48.876 --> 0:18:52.316 you know, yeah, you've we've frozen this stuff now. But 0:18:52.996 --> 0:18:55.156 it's clearly sending a message that this is not going 0:18:55.196 --> 0:18:58.316 to be a growth industry and it might actually be 0:18:58.356 --> 0:19:01.396 a shrinking industry. So maybe, you know, the smart money 0:19:01.516 --> 0:19:05.876 is on substitutes. So for example, the chloroflora currents. At 0:19:05.876 --> 0:19:10.036 one time, we're used as solvents, and it was found 0:19:10.036 --> 0:19:13.676 that you could actually substitute lemon juice in a lot 0:19:13.676 --> 0:19:17.476 of cases. So, you know, it was just amazing how 0:19:17.556 --> 0:19:22.116 quickly industry pivoted. You know, the chemical industry is can 0:19:22.156 --> 0:19:26.236 be very nimble when they're forced to be. So it 0:19:26.316 --> 0:19:28.716 was the perfect problem. And that it affected humids, we 0:19:28.716 --> 0:19:31.676 could see how it affects humids, we immediately reacted to it, 0:19:31.956 --> 0:19:35.596 whereas climate change, we're really saying, at some point, this 0:19:35.636 --> 0:19:38.516 is going to happen to the planet, and that happening 0:19:38.516 --> 0:19:41.036 to the planet then affects us, which feels like it's 0:19:41.076 --> 0:19:44.516 harder to make that appeal to humans. So I'm asking, 0:19:44.756 --> 0:19:47.316 how are you still optimistic about this? Helped me be 0:19:47.356 --> 0:19:50.836 more optimistic. Okay, let me also say, by the way, 0:19:50.836 --> 0:19:54.836 you're right, I think ozone was kind of a you know, 0:19:55.276 --> 0:19:59.676 it was the Goldilocks problem as far as having everything 0:19:59.796 --> 0:20:05.196 just line up perfectly for it to be very, very solvable. 0:20:05.436 --> 0:20:08.676 But it's not unique. Actually, when you look at lead 0:20:08.716 --> 0:20:14.556 in pain, leading gasoline acid rain, how good a job 0:20:14.676 --> 0:20:19.436 we did on dealing with smog in this country. You know, 0:20:19.476 --> 0:20:22.556 it had a lot of the same elements, a social movement, 0:20:22.676 --> 0:20:27.756 politicians who really hugely supported it, options for practical solutions, 0:20:27.796 --> 0:20:30.556 namely the catalytic converter in your car. I mean I 0:20:30.596 --> 0:20:35.276 could name another half a dozen issues, all of which 0:20:35.356 --> 0:20:41.116 follow that same pattern of personal, perceptible, practical and people. 0:20:41.716 --> 0:20:45.636 Maybe that's the fourth pee is people. But when it 0:20:45.676 --> 0:20:49.836 comes to climate change, I am optimistic. And the reason 0:20:49.996 --> 0:20:55.156 is because you know, say ten fifteen years ago, people 0:20:55.196 --> 0:20:57.516 would say to me, well, you know, climate change, it's 0:20:57.556 --> 0:21:00.636 just not that personal to me. And I think the 0:21:00.676 --> 0:21:03.716 waiting is over, I really do. I don't see how 0:21:03.796 --> 0:21:08.836 anyone can look at the pictures of people drowning in 0:21:09.156 --> 0:21:13.076 subways that was in China this summer, and churches in 0:21:13.116 --> 0:21:16.276 Europe that have been there for hundreds of years getting 0:21:16.316 --> 0:21:21.676 swept away, and wildfires destroying the volume of the size 0:21:21.676 --> 0:21:24.316 of the state of Rhode Island in California, and the 0:21:24.956 --> 0:21:28.836 air pollution from that being horrendous. I just don't think 0:21:28.916 --> 0:21:32.476 you can realistically look around and say climate change isn't here. 0:21:32.676 --> 0:21:37.436 Climate change is here. It is personal, and people are 0:21:37.476 --> 0:21:40.556 not heartless. I mean most people, actually, you will do 0:21:40.676 --> 0:21:44.156 something to help their fellow man as long as it's practical. 0:21:44.756 --> 0:21:48.716 Support for alternative energy has come a long way, particularly 0:21:48.756 --> 0:21:53.596 development around solar and wind has yielded tremendous benefits. And 0:21:53.756 --> 0:21:56.676 here's the amazing thing. If you're going to build a 0:21:56.756 --> 0:22:01.796 power plant in America today, the cheapest type of power 0:22:02.076 --> 0:22:07.236 to produce is solar and wind, So you won't build 0:22:07.276 --> 0:22:10.676 a coal plant in America today. Every thing that President 0:22:10.716 --> 0:22:13.356 Trump tried to do to prop up coal, you know, 0:22:13.356 --> 0:22:16.036 it didn't work. There have been lots of retirements of 0:22:16.116 --> 0:22:19.556 coal plants in the years of the Trump presidency and 0:22:19.636 --> 0:22:22.356 maybe maybe nuts. Not even talk about presidents, let's talk 0:22:22.396 --> 0:22:26.076 about GM. GM has announced that they are going to 0:22:26.116 --> 0:22:30.396 only make electric vehicles by twenty twenty five. So what 0:22:30.556 --> 0:22:33.516 is that telling you? They're getting the message right, I mean, 0:22:33.636 --> 0:22:37.836 industries got the signal, Doctor Solomon. How has the Paris 0:22:37.916 --> 0:22:42.036 Climate Agreement worked similarly to the Montreal Protocol in terms 0:22:42.076 --> 0:22:47.076 of influencing industry Because of the tremendous amount of money involved, 0:22:47.476 --> 0:22:50.356 No nation is going to comfortably sign up to a 0:22:50.356 --> 0:22:55.596 big cut in emission if it's a binding agreement. I mean, 0:22:55.876 --> 0:22:58.556 the Montreal Protocol could be binding because of the nature 0:22:58.556 --> 0:23:02.396 of those chemicals, but this had to be a voluntary agreement. 0:23:02.516 --> 0:23:04.876 China and the US are not going to sign up 0:23:04.916 --> 0:23:07.636 to that, so it's voluntary. We make a promise, we 0:23:07.716 --> 0:23:10.956 say we're going to phase out this much by twenty 0:23:11.036 --> 0:23:15.316 thirty or twenty forty. That's huge. The message that sends 0:23:15.356 --> 0:23:19.916 to industry is enormous, and I think the Paris Agreement 0:23:20.076 --> 0:23:25.036 is a master stroke for that. So, um, I'm I'm 0:23:25.076 --> 0:23:30.196 a patient woman and I'm very optimistic. Is any of 0:23:30.196 --> 0:23:33.476 this optimism fueled by the fact that the ozone layer 0:23:33.516 --> 0:23:36.196 has started to heal and you can directly attribute that 0:23:36.476 --> 0:23:38.436 to the type of work that you were doing in 0:23:38.476 --> 0:23:41.596 the eighties and nineties. I mean, what my feeling when 0:23:41.636 --> 0:23:44.676 I see that is behold the awesome power of we 0:23:44.876 --> 0:23:48.236 the people. That's what made this happen. And you know, 0:23:48.276 --> 0:23:50.596 my grandmother made it to one hundred and one. So 0:23:50.876 --> 0:23:53.956 if I do also, then I will actually get to 0:23:53.996 --> 0:23:57.236 see the ozone hole completely closed. And I've already seen 0:23:57.276 --> 0:23:59.516 it start to heal, doctors, all of it. That's exciting. 0:23:59.556 --> 0:24:02.196 That's that's exciting. There's a couple of things you've said. 0:24:02.196 --> 0:24:05.196 You said that you're you're patient, and I appreciate that. 0:24:05.276 --> 0:24:08.156 I think sometimes a kid get lost in the climate fight, 0:24:08.836 --> 0:24:13.356 the urgency that is spoken versus the work that is 0:24:13.396 --> 0:24:15.636 being done and the moves that are being made. So 0:24:15.636 --> 0:24:18.876 it's really good to hear you say that, and you 0:24:18.876 --> 0:24:21.756 are awarded the National Medal of Science in nineteen ninety nine, 0:24:21.796 --> 0:24:24.796 the Blue Planet Prize in two thousand and four. You 0:24:24.916 --> 0:24:27.076 shared a Noble Peace Prize in two thousand and seven 0:24:27.116 --> 0:24:30.436 with Al Gore as a member of the IPCC. You 0:24:30.436 --> 0:24:32.436 were inducted into the Women's Hall of Fame in two 0:24:32.476 --> 0:24:34.796 thousand and nine, all related to your work on CFC. 0:24:34.916 --> 0:24:37.836 So that's you have an incredible track record here. Is 0:24:37.836 --> 0:24:41.156 there anything about your work that people get wrong or miss? 0:24:41.556 --> 0:24:44.476 Because it's so exciting to congratulate you on the big 0:24:44.876 --> 0:24:48.916 public wins. We would not have gotten where we got 0:24:48.956 --> 0:24:53.116 to about the ozone hole if people hadn't stopped using 0:24:53.196 --> 0:24:57.316 spray cans. So I wish they would congratulate themselves, not 0:24:57.476 --> 0:25:02.036 me more often. I know that sounds corny, but I 0:25:02.076 --> 0:25:12.516 really truly do feel that way. Can you talk about 0:25:12.596 --> 0:25:15.796 one to two things that listeners can do today to 0:25:15.836 --> 0:25:19.316 help slow down or reverse climate change? If they want 0:25:19.316 --> 0:25:22.316 to be involved in being a part of the people 0:25:22.436 --> 0:25:25.076 of the four piece that you said, Yeah, that is 0:25:25.116 --> 0:25:28.516 such a great question. So the first thing that they 0:25:28.516 --> 0:25:32.756 should be doing is writing letters to their congressmen, and 0:25:33.156 --> 0:25:36.156 if they can going out there and holding a sign 0:25:36.716 --> 0:25:41.516 being part of peaceful you know, and non violence demonstrations 0:25:41.636 --> 0:25:45.916 to make their opinions heard in whatever opportunities they have 0:25:46.036 --> 0:25:48.676 to do that. They should also be talking to people 0:25:48.836 --> 0:25:52.076