1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:25,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. Back in 2 00:00:25,836 --> 00:00:27,756 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two, I was in the second grade and 3 00:00:27,796 --> 00:00:31,316 Speaker 1: would occasionally watch this show on television called Captain Planet 4 00:00:31,356 --> 00:00:38,356 Speaker 1: and the Planeteers The Power. It was a superhero themed 5 00:00:38,476 --> 00:00:43,236 Speaker 1: environmentalist cartoon considered to be edutainment for kids. It fitted 6 00:00:43,316 --> 00:00:46,116 Speaker 1: well with Bill Nye, the Science Guy and Reading Rainbow. 7 00:00:46,636 --> 00:00:50,476 Speaker 1: Each episode was built around an environmental problem, often perpetuated 8 00:00:50,476 --> 00:00:54,516 Speaker 1: by a super villain. Then the international coalition of Planeteers 9 00:00:54,716 --> 00:00:58,796 Speaker 1: would fight alongside Captain Planet to literally save the world. 10 00:00:59,356 --> 00:01:02,356 Speaker 1: The show was very on the nose. It covered topics 11 00:01:02,396 --> 00:01:06,556 Speaker 1: like littering, pollution, and in one particular episode it talked 12 00:01:06,596 --> 00:01:10,236 Speaker 1: about the whole in the ozone layer that chill Joy. 13 00:01:10,396 --> 00:01:14,716 Speaker 1: Ozone layer blocks out the deadly rays. D fcs eat 14 00:01:14,756 --> 00:01:18,636 Speaker 1: a hole in the ozone layer of Hurd's atmosphere, but 15 00:01:19,356 --> 00:01:23,556 Speaker 1: without the ozone, the Sun's deadly ultraviolet radiation will pour 16 00:01:23,636 --> 00:01:30,676 Speaker 1: down on us exactly. Supervillain Duke Newcombe and its flunky 17 00:01:30,716 --> 00:01:34,836 Speaker 1: assistant who moved factories to Antarctica in order to open 18 00:01:34,876 --> 00:01:38,276 Speaker 1: the backs of refrigerators and microwaves just to release the 19 00:01:38,356 --> 00:01:44,556 Speaker 1: damaging chemicals. Those chemicals called CFC's or chlorofluoral carbons actively 20 00:01:44,596 --> 00:01:48,196 Speaker 1: create the whole in the ozone Again, this is a 21 00:01:48,276 --> 00:01:51,396 Speaker 1: kid show. I first saw this episode when I was 22 00:01:51,436 --> 00:01:55,316 Speaker 1: in second grade, and I remember being really concerned. As 23 00:01:55,356 --> 00:01:57,916 Speaker 1: an adult, I rarely hear about the ozone layer. I 24 00:01:57,996 --> 00:02:00,236 Speaker 1: talked this up to lack of interest and the new 25 00:02:00,276 --> 00:02:03,796 Speaker 1: cycle moving on, but then I realized it's because this 26 00:02:03,836 --> 00:02:08,196 Speaker 1: problem was actually solved. We had this which you might 27 00:02:08,236 --> 00:02:12,156 Speaker 1: call focusing event of this whole in the Antarctic ozone layer, 28 00:02:12,156 --> 00:02:14,716 Speaker 1: which really in the nineties and certainly in the eighties, 29 00:02:14,956 --> 00:02:19,196 Speaker 1: people were very, very interested in this problem. Kids really cared, 30 00:02:19,236 --> 00:02:22,836 Speaker 1: and their parents really cared. Doctor Susan Solomon is a 31 00:02:22,916 --> 00:02:27,636 Speaker 1: real life planeteer. She's an atmospheric scientist whose research into 32 00:02:27,676 --> 00:02:31,076 Speaker 1: CFC's in the nineteen eighties showed that they were responsible 33 00:02:31,116 --> 00:02:33,676 Speaker 1: for the whole in the ozone layer and eventually led 34 00:02:33,756 --> 00:02:38,356 Speaker 1: us all to solutions. Public engagement, you know, when people 35 00:02:38,476 --> 00:02:42,476 Speaker 1: get interested in something and really think about what things 36 00:02:42,556 --> 00:02:47,156 Speaker 1: they can do, is often a very very powerful way 37 00:02:47,236 --> 00:02:50,756 Speaker 1: to solve environmental problems. Now you know here it's solvable. 38 00:02:50,756 --> 00:02:53,116 Speaker 1: It's rare that we talk about problems that have already 39 00:02:53,116 --> 00:02:56,076 Speaker 1: been solved. So let's see what lessons we can learn 40 00:02:56,116 --> 00:02:59,396 Speaker 1: from doctor Solomon and how they can be applied. I'm 41 00:02:59,436 --> 00:03:02,436 Speaker 1: doctor Susan Solomon, and I never thought when I was 42 00:03:02,516 --> 00:03:05,236 Speaker 1: young that we could solve the ozone depletion problem, but 43 00:03:05,356 --> 00:03:10,756 Speaker 1: we did, and we can also solve climate change. I 44 00:03:10,836 --> 00:03:13,276 Speaker 1: know that one of your earliest inspirations was the ocean 45 00:03:13,316 --> 00:03:16,756 Speaker 1: explorer and filmmaker Jacques Cousteau. He was a big influence 46 00:03:16,796 --> 00:03:18,916 Speaker 1: on you as a kid. Can you remember the first 47 00:03:18,916 --> 00:03:22,236 Speaker 1: time you saw him at work? You know, it was 48 00:03:22,276 --> 00:03:26,796 Speaker 1: one of those little old nineteen sixties black and white TVs. 49 00:03:26,916 --> 00:03:29,756 Speaker 1: I was probably about ten, so even though it was 50 00:03:29,796 --> 00:03:34,196 Speaker 1: black and white, I just could not believe how beautiful 51 00:03:34,316 --> 00:03:38,316 Speaker 1: the undersea world of Jacques Cousteau actually was, and what 52 00:03:38,476 --> 00:03:41,276 Speaker 1: an incredible thing it was that he was going down 53 00:03:41,316 --> 00:03:46,516 Speaker 1: there to study sharks and whales. And that's when I decided, Okay, 54 00:03:46,596 --> 00:03:49,516 Speaker 1: I'm going to be a scientist. And I never wavered 55 00:03:49,596 --> 00:03:52,436 Speaker 1: from that view, and I'm so glad that I didn't. 56 00:03:53,196 --> 00:03:55,916 Speaker 1: How did you make the leap from underwater science to 57 00:03:56,156 --> 00:03:59,196 Speaker 1: atmospheric work. I thought at first that I would be 58 00:03:59,236 --> 00:04:03,596 Speaker 1: a biologist, you know, I'd be a marine biologist like Jacque. Right. 59 00:04:04,356 --> 00:04:08,636 Speaker 1: But when I got to college and was, you know, 60 00:04:08,756 --> 00:04:12,556 Speaker 1: looking at biology, I didn't really like biology, but I 61 00:04:12,636 --> 00:04:15,756 Speaker 1: really liked chemistry. What I liked about it was the 62 00:04:15,876 --> 00:04:20,276 Speaker 1: exactitude of it. You measure out exactly how many milli 63 00:04:20,396 --> 00:04:24,756 Speaker 1: leaders of one chemical you combine with another one, and voila, 64 00:04:25,316 --> 00:04:29,116 Speaker 1: you know, you get some third thing and it always 65 00:04:29,156 --> 00:04:31,716 Speaker 1: happens the same way. And I found that to be 66 00:04:31,796 --> 00:04:35,756 Speaker 1: really beautiful. So I kind of fell in love with chemistry. 67 00:04:36,236 --> 00:04:37,836 Speaker 1: Then I found out that there was such a thing 68 00:04:37,836 --> 00:04:41,076 Speaker 1: as chemistry on a planet, not just in a test tube. 69 00:04:41,836 --> 00:04:45,076 Speaker 1: And wow, that's what I decided I would try and 70 00:04:45,156 --> 00:04:48,396 Speaker 1: go for. And it was, I think a fabulous decision. 71 00:04:49,116 --> 00:04:51,436 Speaker 1: Doctor Solomon. In the nineteen eighties, you led a group 72 00:04:51,476 --> 00:04:53,996 Speaker 1: of researchers to Antarctica. Tell me a little bit about 73 00:04:53,996 --> 00:04:56,916 Speaker 1: that trip. By that time, I was already a young scientist. 74 00:04:57,076 --> 00:05:00,676 Speaker 1: I was past my PhD. I was working for the 75 00:05:00,756 --> 00:05:05,476 Speaker 1: National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. And this incredible thing happened, 76 00:05:05,516 --> 00:05:10,196 Speaker 1: which was that some scientists reported that the ozone over 77 00:05:10,196 --> 00:05:14,716 Speaker 1: Antarctica had dropped like a rock. And I was lucky 78 00:05:14,796 --> 00:05:16,836 Speaker 1: enough to have the chance to go down there and 79 00:05:17,036 --> 00:05:20,836 Speaker 1: take some measurements not just of ozone itself, but also 80 00:05:20,916 --> 00:05:24,036 Speaker 1: other chemicals that influence it, to try to understand why 81 00:05:24,076 --> 00:05:27,516 Speaker 1: that was happening. And as far as the experience, you know, 82 00:05:27,636 --> 00:05:31,196 Speaker 1: it's often said Antarctica isn't a place, it's an obsession 83 00:05:31,756 --> 00:05:36,836 Speaker 1: because everybody that goes there is so blown away by 84 00:05:37,036 --> 00:05:45,756 Speaker 1: the other worldly nature of this remarkable, cold, remote crystalline 85 00:05:45,796 --> 00:05:51,716 Speaker 1: palace that is Antarctica, and the constant reminders that you 86 00:05:51,876 --> 00:05:57,956 Speaker 1: really are in the most unexplored place that exists still 87 00:05:58,436 --> 00:06:03,596 Speaker 1: on this planet, and also just how small you are 88 00:06:03,756 --> 00:06:07,716 Speaker 1: as a person, and how vast and wild nature is. 89 00:06:07,796 --> 00:06:10,836 Speaker 1: I mean, there's no a greater reminder of that than 90 00:06:10,876 --> 00:06:14,436 Speaker 1: when you're in a blizzard down in the Antarctic. Could 91 00:06:14,436 --> 00:06:19,116 Speaker 1: you describe what's that like? Oh? Yeah, I mean down there, 92 00:06:19,356 --> 00:06:23,436 Speaker 1: you don't actually usually call them blizzards. You call them 93 00:06:23,476 --> 00:06:28,076 Speaker 1: herbies because it's a combination of a hurricane a blizzards. 94 00:06:28,476 --> 00:06:32,516 Speaker 1: It became a herbie. It sounds cuter than it is. 95 00:06:32,916 --> 00:06:35,796 Speaker 1: It's very dangerous to go outside in those kind of 96 00:06:35,796 --> 00:06:41,076 Speaker 1: conditions because you literally cannot see more than a few 97 00:06:41,116 --> 00:06:43,716 Speaker 1: feet in front of your face. So if you get 98 00:06:43,716 --> 00:06:46,516 Speaker 1: disoriented at all, and you don't know which way is 99 00:06:46,556 --> 00:06:49,516 Speaker 1: back to the hut that you came out of. You 100 00:06:49,996 --> 00:06:59,716 Speaker 1: probably will die. And I know people who have Doctor Solomon, 101 00:07:00,076 --> 00:07:02,476 Speaker 1: can you tell me a little bit about what ozone 102 00:07:02,556 --> 00:07:06,596 Speaker 1: actually is and why you went to Antarctica to study 103 00:07:06,676 --> 00:07:12,196 Speaker 1: there specifically. Yeah, so it was a real mystery when 104 00:07:12,476 --> 00:07:17,476 Speaker 1: the ozone hole opened up. Ozone is O three, So 105 00:07:17,676 --> 00:07:21,156 Speaker 1: three oxygen atoms stuck together is O three. Oxygen that 106 00:07:21,156 --> 00:07:25,396 Speaker 1: we breathe is O two and very very different. O 107 00:07:25,756 --> 00:07:30,636 Speaker 1: three absorbs certain wavelengths of ultraviolet light that are not 108 00:07:30,796 --> 00:07:34,116 Speaker 1: absorbed by anything else. So it's absolutely critical for the 109 00:07:34,156 --> 00:07:36,876 Speaker 1: evolution of life on the planet. If we didn't have 110 00:07:36,916 --> 00:07:38,636 Speaker 1: an no zone layer, there wouldn't be any life at 111 00:07:38,716 --> 00:07:40,676 Speaker 1: all on this planet, at least not life as we 112 00:07:40,756 --> 00:07:44,316 Speaker 1: know it. If we have less ozone, then we'll have 113 00:07:44,436 --> 00:07:48,596 Speaker 1: more skin cancer, we'll have more cataracts. Those are some 114 00:07:48,676 --> 00:07:51,636 Speaker 1: of the most severe human impacts. But you know, what 115 00:07:51,796 --> 00:07:56,076 Speaker 1: about plants, what about animals? You know, it clearly would 116 00:07:56,076 --> 00:08:00,316 Speaker 1: have massive biological implications because ultra violet light. You know, 117 00:08:00,396 --> 00:08:04,596 Speaker 1: anybody who's ever been sunburned or head cataracts knows that 118 00:08:04,716 --> 00:08:07,876 Speaker 1: ultraviolet light is very damaging. So it was really a 119 00:08:07,916 --> 00:08:12,636 Speaker 1: shock when the British Antarctic Survey reported that they'd seen 120 00:08:12,956 --> 00:08:17,356 Speaker 1: a tremendous decline in the ozone layer over their station. 121 00:08:17,716 --> 00:08:20,076 Speaker 1: It wasn't being seen anywhere else in the world. It 122 00:08:20,156 --> 00:08:23,476 Speaker 1: wasn't being seen over the Arctic, for example. Didn't take 123 00:08:23,516 --> 00:08:27,316 Speaker 1: long for the Japanese at their station to confirm what 124 00:08:27,356 --> 00:08:31,276 Speaker 1: the British had seen, and eventually the satellites came in 125 00:08:31,356 --> 00:08:34,476 Speaker 1: and were able to actually document the full scale of 126 00:08:34,516 --> 00:08:36,756 Speaker 1: the thing. It's twice the size of the continent on 127 00:08:36,796 --> 00:08:39,476 Speaker 1: the United States, I mean, think of that. It's just massive, 128 00:08:40,156 --> 00:08:43,076 Speaker 1: and it opens up every year at the end of 129 00:08:43,116 --> 00:08:47,156 Speaker 1: winter beginning of spring. So this was a huge mystery 130 00:08:47,396 --> 00:08:50,356 Speaker 1: and we went down there to try to help figure 131 00:08:50,396 --> 00:08:53,076 Speaker 1: out what it is by measuring other stuff, you know, 132 00:08:53,316 --> 00:08:56,076 Speaker 1: and you could actually see that there was this huge 133 00:08:56,156 --> 00:09:00,996 Speaker 1: bite taken out of the normal layer. So there's normally 134 00:09:01,716 --> 00:09:05,276 Speaker 1: sort of a you know, if you turned it on 135 00:09:05,276 --> 00:09:07,476 Speaker 1: its side and imagine it was a person, it would 136 00:09:07,476 --> 00:09:09,796 Speaker 1: look like a big nose. Right, So there's this big 137 00:09:09,916 --> 00:09:13,636 Speaker 1: layer of ozone and you know, somebody's eaten the nose 138 00:09:13,716 --> 00:09:18,156 Speaker 1: off of ozone's face. Right, It's just it's incredible, So 139 00:09:18,476 --> 00:09:21,276 Speaker 1: we should clarify this is not something you can actually 140 00:09:21,276 --> 00:09:24,036 Speaker 1: see with your eyes right right, So you can't see 141 00:09:24,156 --> 00:09:27,436 Speaker 1: ultraviolet light with your eyes, but we have sensors that 142 00:09:27,516 --> 00:09:31,636 Speaker 1: can measure ultraviolet light. And since ozone absorbs in the ultraviolet, 143 00:09:32,076 --> 00:09:35,316 Speaker 1: if there's less ozone, there'll be more ultraviolet, and you 144 00:09:35,356 --> 00:09:38,196 Speaker 1: can quantify that and say how much it is. We 145 00:09:38,276 --> 00:09:42,316 Speaker 1: could also, and this was really important, measure chlorine monoxide. 146 00:09:42,676 --> 00:09:45,676 Speaker 1: And in my own group we measured chlorine dioxide, which 147 00:09:45,756 --> 00:09:48,756 Speaker 1: is related to chlorine monoxide and that absorbs in the 148 00:09:48,876 --> 00:09:54,156 Speaker 1: visible So all these different kinds of measurements by independent methods, 149 00:09:54,236 --> 00:09:58,436 Speaker 1: they all showed that the chlorine was completely out of wack. 150 00:09:59,196 --> 00:10:03,756 Speaker 1: And that was very suggestive certainly, and infect it really 151 00:10:03,876 --> 00:10:08,996 Speaker 1: strongly pointed toward the idea that something about the chlorofluoricar 152 00:10:09,276 --> 00:10:12,916 Speaker 1: in chemistry over Antarctica was different, and we knew that 153 00:10:13,396 --> 00:10:16,196 Speaker 1: that was a potential cause, and it indeed it turned 154 00:10:16,196 --> 00:10:20,596 Speaker 1: out to be the cause. So chlorofluorcarbons we call those 155 00:10:20,596 --> 00:10:24,076 Speaker 1: CFCs as well. Would you talk about CFCs and remind 156 00:10:24,116 --> 00:10:28,596 Speaker 1: listeners what those are. Chlorofluora carbons are a man made chemical. 157 00:10:28,876 --> 00:10:31,756 Speaker 1: There's no natural source of these molecules at all. We 158 00:10:31,796 --> 00:10:35,756 Speaker 1: make them in the lab. They were first discovered in 159 00:10:35,956 --> 00:10:41,676 Speaker 1: around the twenties for use in refrigerators, and they're actually great. 160 00:10:41,876 --> 00:10:47,076 Speaker 1: They're what makes the compressor able to cool the refrigerator. 161 00:10:47,436 --> 00:10:52,156 Speaker 1: They're a great insulator. So styrofoam, for example, was blown 162 00:10:52,196 --> 00:10:56,116 Speaker 1: that way back in the day. Home insulation panels were 163 00:10:56,116 --> 00:10:59,596 Speaker 1: made that way. But the most important use at the 164 00:10:59,716 --> 00:11:03,156 Speaker 1: time of the discovery of the ozone hole was still 165 00:11:03,356 --> 00:11:06,756 Speaker 1: in spray cans, so the propellants that get the stuff 166 00:11:06,796 --> 00:11:09,996 Speaker 1: to come out of the can. Now, the ozone hole 167 00:11:09,996 --> 00:11:13,716 Speaker 1: wasn't discovered until nineteen eighty five, but in nineteen seventy 168 00:11:13,756 --> 00:11:18,676 Speaker 1: four two scientists Malina and Rowland wrote a paper talking 169 00:11:18,716 --> 00:11:21,956 Speaker 1: about the fact that these molecules might actually destroy a 170 00:11:21,956 --> 00:11:24,756 Speaker 1: little bit of ozone someday. And they were talking about 171 00:11:24,796 --> 00:11:28,116 Speaker 1: a small effect, a few percent far in the future, 172 00:11:28,396 --> 00:11:30,356 Speaker 1: you know, a hundred years from now, kind of like 173 00:11:30,396 --> 00:11:33,596 Speaker 1: the way people used to talk about climate change until 174 00:11:33,676 --> 00:11:37,876 Speaker 1: maybe the past year or two or three, when climate 175 00:11:37,956 --> 00:11:41,196 Speaker 1: change has become more obvious. But back in that day, 176 00:11:41,396 --> 00:11:44,556 Speaker 1: you know, there was no observation that said it was 177 00:11:44,596 --> 00:11:51,316 Speaker 1: already happening, but there was this theory and Americans were environmentally, 178 00:11:51,596 --> 00:11:55,356 Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say very conscious and realize 179 00:11:55,396 --> 00:11:57,636 Speaker 1: that they could do something really simple, which was go 180 00:11:57,716 --> 00:12:01,116 Speaker 1: to their medicine cabinet and get rid of the spray 181 00:12:01,156 --> 00:12:04,516 Speaker 1: on deodorant and buy the roll on next time instead, 182 00:12:04,996 --> 00:12:08,516 Speaker 1: and that's what they did. It created an enormous kickstart 183 00:12:08,596 --> 00:12:11,916 Speaker 1: because with seventy five percent of the use being for 184 00:12:12,036 --> 00:12:16,516 Speaker 1: spray cans in nineteen seventy four, the American chemical companies 185 00:12:16,556 --> 00:12:20,796 Speaker 1: suddenly found themselves, you know, in a terrible position. There 186 00:12:20,876 --> 00:12:23,556 Speaker 1: was no market, you know, I mean it's like, whoa, 187 00:12:23,876 --> 00:12:26,676 Speaker 1: The bottom dropped out of everything that they were trying 188 00:12:26,716 --> 00:12:29,796 Speaker 1: to do with these chemicals. So from the point of 189 00:12:29,836 --> 00:12:33,476 Speaker 1: view of the US manufacturers, the old stuff wasn't wasn't 190 00:12:33,516 --> 00:12:37,796 Speaker 1: going to sell. So consumer action really was a fantastic 191 00:12:37,916 --> 00:12:40,356 Speaker 1: kickstart when they had a huge effect on industry, had 192 00:12:40,396 --> 00:12:44,556 Speaker 1: a few huge effect on the viability of that product. 193 00:12:44,916 --> 00:12:47,756 Speaker 1: It's just, I think a wonderful testimony to the power 194 00:12:47,796 --> 00:12:51,836 Speaker 1: of people. And I agree with that because I remember 195 00:12:51,876 --> 00:12:53,916 Speaker 1: in the nineties, early nineties, I was in first or 196 00:12:53,956 --> 00:12:56,636 Speaker 1: second grade, and I remember when that was all people 197 00:12:56,676 --> 00:12:59,036 Speaker 1: talked about. They were like, hey, we got to save 198 00:12:59,036 --> 00:13:01,556 Speaker 1: the ozone layer. Don't use CFCs, don't use spray cans, 199 00:13:01,556 --> 00:13:04,396 Speaker 1: and they mobilized us children to go home, mommy, daddy, 200 00:13:04,436 --> 00:13:06,196 Speaker 1: you gotta get rid of all the spray cants stuff. 201 00:13:06,196 --> 00:13:08,516 Speaker 1: You can't use this anymore, especially if it's a CFCs. 202 00:13:08,716 --> 00:13:11,516 Speaker 1: And I've remember on cans stuff used to say no 203 00:13:11,676 --> 00:13:13,876 Speaker 1: CFCs if they didn't have it. It It was very popular 204 00:13:14,716 --> 00:13:16,396 Speaker 1: at that time. And I remember we used to talk 205 00:13:16,436 --> 00:13:17,916 Speaker 1: about the ozonel or a lot. There was a lot 206 00:13:17,916 --> 00:13:20,716 Speaker 1: of buzz in the nineties about ozone depletion, But the 207 00:13:20,756 --> 00:13:24,636 Speaker 1: climate conversation seems to have shifted. We're not necessarily talking 208 00:13:24,676 --> 00:13:27,996 Speaker 1: about ozone depletion as much anymore. And I'm wondering how 209 00:13:28,076 --> 00:13:32,676 Speaker 1: tightly linked are ozone depletion and climate change. It's not 210 00:13:32,836 --> 00:13:36,836 Speaker 1: the major reason why the planet's getting hotter. The climate 211 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:41,876 Speaker 1: issue is mainly caused by our burning of fossil fuels, 212 00:13:42,116 --> 00:13:48,956 Speaker 1: which produces carbon dioxide, and that carbon dioxide absorbs infrared light. 213 00:13:49,476 --> 00:13:55,356 Speaker 1: It's because we've increased the carbon dioxide by oh, you know, 214 00:13:55,716 --> 00:14:00,516 Speaker 1: the natural level that was there, say around eighteen hundred, 215 00:14:00,636 --> 00:14:04,196 Speaker 1: would have been around two hundred and seventy parts per millions. 216 00:14:04,196 --> 00:14:06,516 Speaker 1: So when a millionaire molecules, you'd find two hundred and 217 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:10,036 Speaker 1: seventy carbon dioxide molecules. Now we have something close to 218 00:14:10,076 --> 00:14:14,156 Speaker 1: foreign fifteen. So you know, we've we've made a big 219 00:14:14,236 --> 00:14:16,956 Speaker 1: change in the amount of carbon dioxide. And the one 220 00:14:17,036 --> 00:14:20,676 Speaker 1: thing actually that the ozone depleting chemicals have in common 221 00:14:21,116 --> 00:14:24,956 Speaker 1: with carbon dioxide is that they have long lifetimes of 222 00:14:24,956 --> 00:14:27,716 Speaker 1: the order of fifty two hundred and fifty years. Carbon 223 00:14:27,756 --> 00:14:31,076 Speaker 1: dioxide is even longer. Some of it goes away fairly 224 00:14:31,156 --> 00:14:35,276 Speaker 1: quickly into things like plants and the surface layer of 225 00:14:35,276 --> 00:14:39,276 Speaker 1: the ocean. But in a thousand years, twenty percent of 226 00:14:39,316 --> 00:14:44,396 Speaker 1: the carbon dioxide that you or I know put in 227 00:14:44,436 --> 00:14:48,476 Speaker 1: the atmosphere today by driving, for example, will still be there. 228 00:14:48,636 --> 00:14:51,436 Speaker 1: Twenty percent of it will still be there, continuing to 229 00:14:51,476 --> 00:14:55,036 Speaker 1: warm the planet. You know, to me, what matters in 230 00:14:55,196 --> 00:15:00,996 Speaker 1: solving environmental problems is first and foremost the action of people, 231 00:15:01,236 --> 00:15:06,796 Speaker 1: the interest of people. With enough public interest, politicians who 232 00:15:06,876 --> 00:15:10,636 Speaker 1: care can get engaged with the problem because you know, 233 00:15:10,716 --> 00:15:13,396 Speaker 1: they've got popular support, and in fact, they can force 234 00:15:13,476 --> 00:15:18,316 Speaker 1: their opponents to get engaged. And that's that's happened already 235 00:15:18,356 --> 00:15:24,116 Speaker 1: in both problems. I personally am very optimistic that the 236 00:15:24,276 --> 00:15:30,196 Speaker 1: kind of public concern and power of the people movement 237 00:15:30,236 --> 00:15:32,116 Speaker 1: that you're seeing is going to have a huge effect. 238 00:15:32,236 --> 00:15:35,116 Speaker 1: And of course, you know, there's a role for science. 239 00:15:35,276 --> 00:15:39,236 Speaker 1: I always say that science alone is never enough to 240 00:15:39,276 --> 00:15:42,836 Speaker 1: solve an environmental problem, but it's always always necessary. So 241 00:15:42,876 --> 00:15:46,076 Speaker 1: it's a necessary but not sufficient condition. You've got to 242 00:15:46,156 --> 00:15:49,476 Speaker 1: be able to understand the problem. And I think that 243 00:15:49,516 --> 00:15:53,076 Speaker 1: we do our best job in solving environmental problems when 244 00:15:53,076 --> 00:15:57,516 Speaker 1: they're personal, when when people really care about them. You know, 245 00:15:57,556 --> 00:16:01,636 Speaker 1: we cared about skin cancer. It was personal, it was perceptible. 246 00:16:01,676 --> 00:16:05,356 Speaker 1: It was easy to see these beautiful images of you 247 00:16:05,396 --> 00:16:07,756 Speaker 1: know how big the ozone hole is, you know, eating 248 00:16:07,796 --> 00:16:11,796 Speaker 1: all of Antarctica. And we found practical solutions. We didn't 249 00:16:11,836 --> 00:16:14,916 Speaker 1: have to give up having dealnorant You know, we could 250 00:16:14,956 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 1: have roll ons and we didn't have to give up 251 00:16:17,356 --> 00:16:19,916 Speaker 1: spreak cans. You know, we could we could actually put 252 00:16:19,956 --> 00:16:21,556 Speaker 1: other stuff in the can. And we don't have to 253 00:16:21,596 --> 00:16:23,836 Speaker 1: give up refrigerators. We'd have to give up any of it. 254 00:16:24,276 --> 00:16:29,076 Speaker 1: We just had to develop practical solutions. And I think 255 00:16:29,076 --> 00:16:32,316 Speaker 1: when you look at climate change, it's becoming way more personal. 256 00:16:32,396 --> 00:16:35,516 Speaker 1: It's why there is this level of public engagement, way 257 00:16:35,556 --> 00:16:38,636 Speaker 1: more perceptible. You know, the summers are warmer, for sure, 258 00:16:39,196 --> 00:16:42,796 Speaker 1: and definitely it's dryer, and of course the fires in 259 00:16:42,836 --> 00:16:47,116 Speaker 1: the West are terrifying, the flooding that happened this year 260 00:16:47,316 --> 00:16:49,596 Speaker 1: in so many different parts of the world, whether it's 261 00:16:49,676 --> 00:16:53,916 Speaker 1: China or Europe. So personal, perceptible, and the solutions are 262 00:16:53,956 --> 00:16:56,476 Speaker 1: becoming practical. You know, I really think we are on 263 00:16:56,516 --> 00:17:10,636 Speaker 1: the road to fixing this problem. I appreciate optimism. I 264 00:17:10,716 --> 00:17:12,956 Speaker 1: do want to talk more specifically about the ways in 265 00:17:13,036 --> 00:17:17,116 Speaker 1: which these movements happened. In the eighties, the same year 266 00:17:17,116 --> 00:17:20,436 Speaker 1: you were doing research in Antarctica, the United Nations created 267 00:17:20,476 --> 00:17:24,716 Speaker 1: the Montreal Protocol. Would you tell me about that time? Sure, 268 00:17:24,756 --> 00:17:28,676 Speaker 1: the original Montreal Protocol was very clever. All that it 269 00:17:28,756 --> 00:17:33,636 Speaker 1: required was that the growth of global use of chlorofloric 270 00:17:33,676 --> 00:17:37,676 Speaker 1: carbons stops. So, in other words, they weren't saying you 271 00:17:37,716 --> 00:17:40,556 Speaker 1: had to phase these molecules out right away. They were saying, 272 00:17:40,956 --> 00:17:43,356 Speaker 1: don't make more next year than you made this year. 273 00:17:43,676 --> 00:17:47,236 Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't that threatening to you know, things 274 00:17:47,316 --> 00:17:53,596 Speaker 1: like refrigerator manufacturers or other users of these molecules. Yet, 275 00:17:54,276 --> 00:17:59,316 Speaker 1: and it gave a mandate to the scientists really and 276 00:17:59,476 --> 00:18:04,676 Speaker 1: the technologists report back to assess the state of the science, 277 00:18:04,836 --> 00:18:07,236 Speaker 1: the state of understanding of what you could do instead, 278 00:18:07,916 --> 00:18:11,516 Speaker 1: and when the diplomats met again in nineteen ninety, by 279 00:18:11,516 --> 00:18:15,316 Speaker 1: that time it had become clear that the depletion over 280 00:18:15,356 --> 00:18:19,276 Speaker 1: an Arctica wasn't unique, that we were actually seeing significant 281 00:18:19,316 --> 00:18:23,316 Speaker 1: depletion over mid latitudes too, So you know, over Washington, 282 00:18:23,396 --> 00:18:26,916 Speaker 1: d C. Over London, over all the different places in 283 00:18:26,956 --> 00:18:29,516 Speaker 1: the world. You know, we have dozens of stations where 284 00:18:29,636 --> 00:18:33,556 Speaker 1: ozone has been measured, So that of course created a 285 00:18:33,676 --> 00:18:38,756 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of impetus to do more. And the other 286 00:18:38,756 --> 00:18:41,476 Speaker 1: thing that was happening, and I think this is really important, 287 00:18:41,556 --> 00:18:45,796 Speaker 1: is that just the fact that the protocol existed really 288 00:18:45,836 --> 00:18:48,876 Speaker 1: sent a strong message to industry. You know, it said, hey, 289 00:18:48,876 --> 00:18:52,316 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, you've we've frozen this stuff now. But 290 00:18:52,996 --> 00:18:55,156 Speaker 1: it's clearly sending a message that this is not going 291 00:18:55,196 --> 00:18:58,316 Speaker 1: to be a growth industry and it might actually be 292 00:18:58,356 --> 00:19:01,396 Speaker 1: a shrinking industry. So maybe, you know, the smart money 293 00:19:01,516 --> 00:19:05,876 Speaker 1: is on substitutes. So for example, the chloroflora currents. At 294 00:19:05,876 --> 00:19:10,036 Speaker 1: one time, we're used as solvents, and it was found 295 00:19:10,036 --> 00:19:13,676 Speaker 1: that you could actually substitute lemon juice in a lot 296 00:19:13,676 --> 00:19:17,476 Speaker 1: of cases. So, you know, it was just amazing how 297 00:19:17,556 --> 00:19:22,116 Speaker 1: quickly industry pivoted. You know, the chemical industry is can 298 00:19:22,156 --> 00:19:26,236 Speaker 1: be very nimble when they're forced to be. So it 299 00:19:26,316 --> 00:19:28,716 Speaker 1: was the perfect problem. And that it affected humids, we 300 00:19:28,716 --> 00:19:31,676 Speaker 1: could see how it affects humids, we immediately reacted to it, 301 00:19:31,956 --> 00:19:35,596 Speaker 1: whereas climate change, we're really saying, at some point, this 302 00:19:35,636 --> 00:19:38,516 Speaker 1: is going to happen to the planet, and that happening 303 00:19:38,516 --> 00:19:41,036 Speaker 1: to the planet then affects us, which feels like it's 304 00:19:41,076 --> 00:19:44,516 Speaker 1: harder to make that appeal to humans. So I'm asking, 305 00:19:44,756 --> 00:19:47,316 Speaker 1: how are you still optimistic about this? Helped me be 306 00:19:47,356 --> 00:19:50,836 Speaker 1: more optimistic. Okay, let me also say, by the way, 307 00:19:50,836 --> 00:19:54,836 Speaker 1: you're right, I think ozone was kind of a you know, 308 00:19:55,276 --> 00:19:59,676 Speaker 1: it was the Goldilocks problem as far as having everything 309 00:19:59,796 --> 00:20:05,196 Speaker 1: just line up perfectly for it to be very, very solvable. 310 00:20:05,436 --> 00:20:08,676 Speaker 1: But it's not unique. Actually, when you look at lead 311 00:20:08,716 --> 00:20:14,556 Speaker 1: in pain, leading gasoline acid rain, how good a job 312 00:20:14,676 --> 00:20:19,436 Speaker 1: we did on dealing with smog in this country. You know, 313 00:20:19,476 --> 00:20:22,556 Speaker 1: it had a lot of the same elements, a social movement, 314 00:20:22,676 --> 00:20:27,756 Speaker 1: politicians who really hugely supported it, options for practical solutions, 315 00:20:27,796 --> 00:20:30,556 Speaker 1: namely the catalytic converter in your car. I mean I 316 00:20:30,596 --> 00:20:35,276 Speaker 1: could name another half a dozen issues, all of which 317 00:20:35,356 --> 00:20:41,116 Speaker 1: follow that same pattern of personal, perceptible, practical and people. 318 00:20:41,716 --> 00:20:45,636 Speaker 1: Maybe that's the fourth pee is people. But when it 319 00:20:45,676 --> 00:20:49,836 Speaker 1: comes to climate change, I am optimistic. And the reason 320 00:20:49,996 --> 00:20:55,156 Speaker 1: is because you know, say ten fifteen years ago, people 321 00:20:55,196 --> 00:20:57,516 Speaker 1: would say to me, well, you know, climate change, it's 322 00:20:57,556 --> 00:21:00,636 Speaker 1: just not that personal to me. And I think the 323 00:21:00,676 --> 00:21:03,716 Speaker 1: waiting is over, I really do. I don't see how 324 00:21:03,796 --> 00:21:08,836 Speaker 1: anyone can look at the pictures of people drowning in 325 00:21:09,156 --> 00:21:13,076 Speaker 1: subways that was in China this summer, and churches in 326 00:21:13,116 --> 00:21:16,276 Speaker 1: Europe that have been there for hundreds of years getting 327 00:21:16,316 --> 00:21:21,676 Speaker 1: swept away, and wildfires destroying the volume of the size 328 00:21:21,676 --> 00:21:24,316 Speaker 1: of the state of Rhode Island in California, and the 329 00:21:24,956 --> 00:21:28,836 Speaker 1: air pollution from that being horrendous. I just don't think 330 00:21:28,916 --> 00:21:32,476 Speaker 1: you can realistically look around and say climate change isn't here. 331 00:21:32,676 --> 00:21:37,436 Speaker 1: Climate change is here. It is personal, and people are 332 00:21:37,476 --> 00:21:40,556 Speaker 1: not heartless. I mean most people, actually, you will do 333 00:21:40,676 --> 00:21:44,156 Speaker 1: something to help their fellow man as long as it's practical. 334 00:21:44,756 --> 00:21:48,716 Speaker 1: Support for alternative energy has come a long way, particularly 335 00:21:48,756 --> 00:21:53,596 Speaker 1: development around solar and wind has yielded tremendous benefits. And 336 00:21:53,756 --> 00:21:56,676 Speaker 1: here's the amazing thing. If you're going to build a 337 00:21:56,756 --> 00:22:01,796 Speaker 1: power plant in America today, the cheapest type of power 338 00:22:02,076 --> 00:22:07,236 Speaker 1: to produce is solar and wind, So you won't build 339 00:22:07,276 --> 00:22:10,676 Speaker 1: a coal plant in America today. Every thing that President 340 00:22:10,716 --> 00:22:13,356 Speaker 1: Trump tried to do to prop up coal, you know, 341 00:22:13,356 --> 00:22:16,036 Speaker 1: it didn't work. There have been lots of retirements of 342 00:22:16,116 --> 00:22:19,556 Speaker 1: coal plants in the years of the Trump presidency and 343 00:22:19,636 --> 00:22:22,356 Speaker 1: maybe maybe nuts. Not even talk about presidents, let's talk 344 00:22:22,396 --> 00:22:26,076 Speaker 1: about GM. GM has announced that they are going to 345 00:22:26,116 --> 00:22:30,396 Speaker 1: only make electric vehicles by twenty twenty five. So what 346 00:22:30,556 --> 00:22:33,516 Speaker 1: is that telling you? They're getting the message right, I mean, 347 00:22:33,636 --> 00:22:37,836 Speaker 1: industries got the signal, Doctor Solomon. How has the Paris 348 00:22:37,916 --> 00:22:42,036 Speaker 1: Climate Agreement worked similarly to the Montreal Protocol in terms 349 00:22:42,076 --> 00:22:47,076 Speaker 1: of influencing industry Because of the tremendous amount of money involved, 350 00:22:47,476 --> 00:22:50,356 Speaker 1: No nation is going to comfortably sign up to a 351 00:22:50,356 --> 00:22:55,596 Speaker 1: big cut in emission if it's a binding agreement. I mean, 352 00:22:55,876 --> 00:22:58,556 Speaker 1: the Montreal Protocol could be binding because of the nature 353 00:22:58,556 --> 00:23:02,396 Speaker 1: of those chemicals, but this had to be a voluntary agreement. 354 00:23:02,516 --> 00:23:04,876 Speaker 1: China and the US are not going to sign up 355 00:23:04,916 --> 00:23:07,636 Speaker 1: to that, so it's voluntary. We make a promise, we 356 00:23:07,716 --> 00:23:10,956 Speaker 1: say we're going to phase out this much by twenty 357 00:23:11,036 --> 00:23:15,316 Speaker 1: thirty or twenty forty. That's huge. The message that sends 358 00:23:15,356 --> 00:23:19,916 Speaker 1: to industry is enormous, and I think the Paris Agreement 359 00:23:20,076 --> 00:23:25,036 Speaker 1: is a master stroke for that. So, um, I'm I'm 360 00:23:25,076 --> 00:23:30,196 Speaker 1: a patient woman and I'm very optimistic. Is any of 361 00:23:30,196 --> 00:23:33,476 Speaker 1: this optimism fueled by the fact that the ozone layer 362 00:23:33,516 --> 00:23:36,196 Speaker 1: has started to heal and you can directly attribute that 363 00:23:36,476 --> 00:23:38,436 Speaker 1: to the type of work that you were doing in 364 00:23:38,476 --> 00:23:41,596 Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties. I mean, what my feeling when 365 00:23:41,636 --> 00:23:44,676 Speaker 1: I see that is behold the awesome power of we 366 00:23:44,876 --> 00:23:48,236 Speaker 1: the people. That's what made this happen. And you know, 367 00:23:48,276 --> 00:23:50,596 Speaker 1: my grandmother made it to one hundred and one. So 368 00:23:50,876 --> 00:23:53,956 Speaker 1: if I do also, then I will actually get to 369 00:23:53,996 --> 00:23:57,236 Speaker 1: see the ozone hole completely closed. And I've already seen 370 00:23:57,276 --> 00:23:59,516 Speaker 1: it start to heal, doctors, all of it. That's exciting. 371 00:23:59,556 --> 00:24:02,196 Speaker 1: That's that's exciting. There's a couple of things you've said. 372 00:24:02,196 --> 00:24:05,196 Speaker 1: You said that you're you're patient, and I appreciate that. 373 00:24:05,276 --> 00:24:08,156 Speaker 1: I think sometimes a kid get lost in the climate fight, 374 00:24:08,836 --> 00:24:13,356 Speaker 1: the urgency that is spoken versus the work that is 375 00:24:13,396 --> 00:24:15,636 Speaker 1: being done and the moves that are being made. So 376 00:24:15,636 --> 00:24:18,876 Speaker 1: it's really good to hear you say that, and you 377 00:24:18,876 --> 00:24:21,756 Speaker 1: are awarded the National Medal of Science in nineteen ninety nine, 378 00:24:21,796 --> 00:24:24,796 Speaker 1: the Blue Planet Prize in two thousand and four. You 379 00:24:24,916 --> 00:24:27,076 Speaker 1: shared a Noble Peace Prize in two thousand and seven 380 00:24:27,116 --> 00:24:30,436 Speaker 1: with Al Gore as a member of the IPCC. You 381 00:24:30,436 --> 00:24:32,436 Speaker 1: were inducted into the Women's Hall of Fame in two 382 00:24:32,476 --> 00:24:34,796 Speaker 1: thousand and nine, all related to your work on CFC. 383 00:24:34,916 --> 00:24:37,836 Speaker 1: So that's you have an incredible track record here. Is 384 00:24:37,836 --> 00:24:41,156 Speaker 1: there anything about your work that people get wrong or miss? 385 00:24:41,556 --> 00:24:44,476 Speaker 1: Because it's so exciting to congratulate you on the big 386 00:24:44,876 --> 00:24:48,916 Speaker 1: public wins. We would not have gotten where we got 387 00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:53,116 Speaker 1: to about the ozone hole if people hadn't stopped using 388 00:24:53,196 --> 00:24:57,316 Speaker 1: spray cans. So I wish they would congratulate themselves, not 389 00:24:57,476 --> 00:25:02,036 Speaker 1: me more often. I know that sounds corny, but I 390 00:25:02,076 --> 00:25:12,516 Speaker 1: really truly do feel that way. Can you talk about 391 00:25:12,596 --> 00:25:15,796 Speaker 1: one to two things that listeners can do today to 392 00:25:15,836 --> 00:25:19,316 Speaker 1: help slow down or reverse climate change? If they want 393 00:25:19,316 --> 00:25:22,316 Speaker 1: to be involved in being a part of the people 394 00:25:22,436 --> 00:25:25,076 Speaker 1: of the four piece that you said, Yeah, that is 395 00:25:25,116 --> 00:25:28,516 Speaker 1: such a great question. So the first thing that they 396 00:25:28,516 --> 00:25:32,756 Speaker 1: should be doing is writing letters to their congressmen, and 397 00:25:33,156 --> 00:25:36,156 Speaker 1: if they can going out there and holding a sign 398 00:25:36,716 --> 00:25:41,516 Speaker 1: being part of peaceful you know, and non violence demonstrations 399 00:25:41,636 --> 00:25:45,916 Speaker 1: to make their opinions heard in whatever opportunities they have 400 00:25:46,036 --> 00:25:48,676 Speaker 1: to do that. They should also be talking to people 401 00:25:48,836 --> 00:25:52,076 Speaker 1: in their churches or you know, their clubs or their 402 00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:55,236 Speaker 1: schools or whatever. The more we talk about it, the 403 00:25:55,276 --> 00:25:59,516 Speaker 1: more people will will get engaged. As far as personal actions, 404 00:26:00,196 --> 00:26:03,516 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that I personally have 405 00:26:03,676 --> 00:26:05,996 Speaker 1: done is to cut down on meat in my diet. 406 00:26:06,076 --> 00:26:08,716 Speaker 1: I mean, as you know that the production of meat 407 00:26:08,756 --> 00:26:13,276 Speaker 1: and particular is a significant source of greenhouse gases, so 408 00:26:13,676 --> 00:26:16,316 Speaker 1: cut down a little bit. It's actually good for you too. 409 00:26:16,396 --> 00:26:19,796 Speaker 1: And another thing that you can do is use any 410 00:26:19,836 --> 00:26:23,956 Speaker 1: single use plastic that you get at least twice. So 411 00:26:23,996 --> 00:26:26,876 Speaker 1: if you get a plastic bag, you know, use it again, 412 00:26:27,476 --> 00:26:30,516 Speaker 1: wash it out, use it three times. Better not to 413 00:26:30,596 --> 00:26:33,236 Speaker 1: use it, but if you do have to use it, 414 00:26:33,276 --> 00:26:36,036 Speaker 1: and you know, even like water bottles of course, are 415 00:26:36,036 --> 00:26:39,676 Speaker 1: another great example where there's you know, we have good 416 00:26:39,676 --> 00:26:43,276 Speaker 1: water in this country by and large, it's better to 417 00:26:43,316 --> 00:26:45,436 Speaker 1: bring your own water. But if you forget and you're 418 00:26:45,476 --> 00:26:47,716 Speaker 1: at the baseball game, you know, I get dehydrated. Okay, 419 00:26:47,716 --> 00:26:50,316 Speaker 1: buy buy a bottle plastic water but then don't throw 420 00:26:50,356 --> 00:26:52,876 Speaker 1: it away or even you know, recycle it right away, 421 00:26:53,076 --> 00:26:54,956 Speaker 1: wash it out well, but you know, use it. You 422 00:26:54,956 --> 00:26:57,636 Speaker 1: can use them probably ten times, but at least double 423 00:26:57,676 --> 00:27:02,476 Speaker 1: down and think about reducing the market for single use 424 00:27:02,516 --> 00:27:06,596 Speaker 1: plastic by a factor too. Wow, that would be huge, 425 00:27:08,236 --> 00:27:10,436 Speaker 1: Doctor Solomon, I shate you for being on the show today. 426 00:27:10,436 --> 00:27:13,316 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you 427 00:27:13,396 --> 00:27:18,916 Speaker 1: so much for asking me. It was a thrill. Doctor 428 00:27:18,916 --> 00:27:21,636 Speaker 1: Susan Solomon is a professor of environmental studies at in 429 00:27:21,676 --> 00:27:24,356 Speaker 1: my T. She was awarded the National Medal of Science, 430 00:27:24,476 --> 00:27:28,636 Speaker 1: the prestigious Blue Planet Prize, shared a Nobel Peace Prize 431 00:27:28,636 --> 00:27:30,756 Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven with Al Gore, and was 432 00:27:30,796 --> 00:27:33,076 Speaker 1: inducted into the Women's Hall of Fame in two thousand 433 00:27:33,076 --> 00:27:37,956 Speaker 1: and nine and Solomon. Glacier and Antarctica is named after her. 434 00:27:39,116 --> 00:27:43,036 Speaker 1: Solvable is produced by Joscelyn Frank, research by David Jack, 435 00:27:43,556 --> 00:27:47,676 Speaker 1: booking by Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, 436 00:27:47,916 --> 00:27:51,996 Speaker 1: and our executive producer is mio Lebelle. I'm Ronald Young Junior. 437 00:27:52,556 --> 00:27:53,316 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.