WEBVTT - Crypto Gets Its Moment of Clarity 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.680 This is Bloomberg Business Wait inside from the reporters and 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.440 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.680 global business finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:19.000 Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:22.280 This is among the most read. You have two crypto 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.720 lenders with links to South Korea halting withdrawals in quick successions. 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:27.520 So it's just a reminder that there's still a lot 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:29.320 of risks and a lot of clampdowns when it comes 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:31.720 to crypto. So on that. In the new issue of 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:35.320 Bloomberg BusinessWeek, Bloomberg News Digital Currencies and Venture Capitol reporter 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:38.360 Hannah Miller writing about a relationship to Matt Miller. 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:40.559 Right, No, no relationship that I know of. 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:43.320 I mean it is I believe, the second most comedy 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:44.920 in America. 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:47.520 All right, Well, Hannah's writing about how crypto is getting 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:49.800 his moment of clarity, but not the one that it wanted. 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:52.120 It's a great story. She does us on a zooming 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:54.280 our San Francisco bureau. Hanna, I don't know, have you 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.240 done like you know, I don't know a genetic testing 0:00:57.360 --> 0:00:59.520 year to find out what is it? 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.960 Answers. I'm on there, we would have gotten we would 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:03.720 have been notified. 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.280 I'm on there too. So no notification. 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.319 All right. Well, one industry that's got a lot of 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.680 notifications if it will, if you will, is crypto. So 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:15.920 talk to us about your store, because I think they 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.720 were looking for, like, you know, recognition, as you say, 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.119 a moment of clarity. They didn't get exactly what they. 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:26.080 Wanted, right, Yeah. For years, the crypto industry has just 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:30.160 been clamoring for greater regulatory clarity, and they've wanted answers. 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:32.759 They've wanted rules, they wanted guidelines. They said that they're 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:35.559 working with regulators and that to them, there weren't clear 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.920 processes in place. Well, now they've gotten their answer, and 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:40.720 it's not a good one. You know, the SEC is 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:45.000 hammering down on crypto. These lawsuits against Finance and coinbase 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.960 show that the SEC thinks most of the tokens on 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:52.000 these platforms are unregistered securities. 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:54.840 Yeah, so are they right? 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.160 Well, you know what, that's an argument that we that's 0:01:58.160 --> 0:01:59.840 a debate that we could have, right, Hannah, because I 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:02.680 think in a lot of cases they seem more like 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:06.360 commodities than securities, And you know, Matt Levine always cites 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:08.160 the Howie test and it's kind of a fun debate. 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.239 But it doesn't matter. As long as Gary Gensler and 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.960 the SEC say their securities, they're going to use their 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.080 power to shut down any businesses that are dealing in 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:17.280 them without a license. 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:21.200 Yeah, that's correct. I mean we've seen a lot of 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:23.840 you know, different regulators jocking for power here. You know, 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:28.160 the SEC, the CFTC, you know, have claimed jurisdiction over crypto. 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.640 But you know, the actions taken by the SEC show that, 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.160 you know, they're serious about this, that they want to 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.880 crack down on crypto, and that's really put the entire 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:40.120 industry in unsteady ground in the US. 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.440 So what does it mean. I mean, I've seen a 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.200 lot of stories, yours included, like we are thinking about 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.160 what it means for the US crypto industry because outside 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:52.400 the United States, right, they're moving ahead. 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:56.800 That's true. Yeah, I mean we've seen, you know, crypto 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:01.000 hubs pop up in places like Singapore. Hong Kong is 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:05.160 actually having a warmer reception of crypto. The UK is 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.400 a big market that people are eyeing for coinbase. That's 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.440 the largest international market that they want to expand into 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:16.880 and also, you know in Europe we've seen legislation pass 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:19.320 there that you know, the crypto industry sees is more 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:23.120 welcoming to the industry versus the enforcement taken by the SEC. 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.800 We did have a great story or I guess, a 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:31.000 positive story for crypto across the wire earlier today. According 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:34.040 to coindesk, black Rocks close to filing an application for 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:39.080 a Bitcoin ETF and they would use coin Base as 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.760 custody as custodian. What do you think about this, Hannah, 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:44.640 I mean other people have tried and failed. 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:50.200 Yeah, So I mean in institutional investors, that is the 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:52.480 key area for the crypto industry. You know, they want, 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:54.840 they still want institutional approval and they feel like that 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.920 could maybe help carry them through and keep them, you know, 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.560 on more even footing in the US. So, yeah, this 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.080 news about black Rock, you know, that's a welcome development 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:07.480 both for the industry and for Coinbase. You know, this 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:11.120 is a company that is publicly publicly traded in the US, 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.280 you know, has seen its stock go up and down. 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.760 So welcome developments like this are are I'm sure a 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:17.560 booster morale there. 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:21.640 That's funny, Carol, because you know, everybody's pushing so hard 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:26.200 for a bitcoin etf, as Hannah says, you know, the 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:30.440 thought being that it would kind of legitimize the asset 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:33.880 class for investors. But there are already a number of 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:37.920 crypto ETFs and they've done incredibly well this year, except 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.680 for the fact that nobody has any money invested in them. 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:43.360 I mean we're talking single digit millions. 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:44.320 So how are they doing well? 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.760 Then, well, that's the prices have gone, right, but there's 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:48.440 no cloths. 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:50.680 Yeah, yeah, so there's nothing into it. Well, I do 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:53.160 wonder too, Hannah, you know, go back to you say 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:57.320 institutional investors are clamoring for them. I mean, are pension 0:04:57.360 --> 0:04:59.919 funds like tell me, give me some like color on that. 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:04.200 Yeah. I think there's still you know, sence among pension funds, 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.520 you know, but we've seen players like Black Crop that 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:10.400 been that they still spy opportunity in this space, and 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.640 you know, that's that's helped crypto enthusiasts, you know, maintain 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.560 a bullish attitude towards the the lassets that large. So 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.760 it'll be interesting to see if more institutional players come 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:24.640 out about crypto, if they're willing to, you know, publicly 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:26.799 raise the flag that they're still interested in this space. 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:28.480 One thing I want to ask you, with the lawsuits 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:32.880 that we've seen by the SEC against Coinbase and Binance, 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:36.560 they as you report, could drag on for years, and 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:38.920 I do want to you cite a case against Ripple 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.960 that is still ongoing that was back So I do 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:47.200 wonder is that good for cryptle, you know, for crypto players? 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:48.119 Is that bad? 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:48.320 Like? 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:49.760 How do we see that? 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:51.040 Oh? 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:52.719 Many of the people I've been talking to in the 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:55.920 industry have you know, taken it as a good thing 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:58.360 that these lawsuits could drag on. You know that maybe 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.480 something will change, something will shift during this time. You 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.360 know that they'll actually you know, get a better outcome 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:09.559 than just the SEC winning these cases. So that's people 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:11.599 have really clung to that as a sign of hope. 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:14.560 And you know they're trying to make a game plan here. 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.520 They're you know, thinking about changing up their investment strategies. 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:20.400 I've talked to a lot of vcs who are pulling 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.320 back from token purchases as a form investment that they're 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:25.719 just sticking to equity because there's this there is this 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.919 uncertainty around tokens. So it'll be interesting to see how 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.200 all this plays out how people you know, past the 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:31.800 years here. 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:35.200 One problem with these lawsuits is that you can really 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:38.400 start to lose market share, right An analyst Dan Dola 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:42.919 from The Zoo wrote today that Coinbase is starting to 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:45.839 lose market share and crypto trading to Robin Hood. 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:48.000 Yeah. 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:50.120 No, that that's correct. I mean the lawsuit is a 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.440 big drawback for Coinbase, and you know, people are going 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:55.760 to maybe turn to you know, more familiar name like 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.840 Robin Hood, or you know, be willing to jump ship 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.920 from Coinbase. So we'll see what happens. But that wasn't 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:02.839 totally shocking to me. 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:04.960 I mean, go back to where we started. Are we 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:09.720 still figuring out exactly what cryptocurrencies are? Are they a commodity? 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.200 Are they a collectible? Are they a currency? Are they 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:14.000 a security? 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:16.720 Yeah? I think we're still trying to figure that out. 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:19.880 I've seen a lot of talk about pivoting from money 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.560 crypto to tech crypto, so pulling away from like the 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.640 financial aspects of crypto and looking at how blockchain technology 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:29.400 can you know, provide use cases here. You know, you 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.280 hear talk about Web three, which is the decentralized version 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:35.120 of the Internet based on blockchain. So I think people 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.120 have kind of tried to pull away from the financial 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.720 scams and scandals that have just been continuing to rock 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:41.320 the industry. 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:43.480 You know, if she was a member of your family, 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:44.520 she'd be a huge asset. 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:45.080 I agree. 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:46.560 I'm just going to say, we're just going to put 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:50.360 that out there. Hannah, that was incredible, great story. Really, 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.880 you know, so timely, Hannah Miller, Thank you, thank you. 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.880 She is our Bloomberg News Digital Currencies and venture capital reporter, 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:58.280 Hannah Miller. It's just a great reporter. 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:01.960 Host of the Sam Bankman Freed podcast. 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:04.920 She is, Oh my gosh, why don't we talk about that? Yeah, 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:09.240 all right, anybody you know, download it, find it. It 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.160 tells the story. Yeah, it's very because it's still going on. 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:13.720 Yes, that's a pretty. 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.440 Amazing any spoilers, Well, the whole case is still going 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:16.920 on as well. 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:19.800 And she's looking at like, who are these two idiots? 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:20.640 I mean, oh my god. 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.600 If you're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast, catch 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:28.040 us live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.560 on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:36.280 Business app, or wants us Live on YouTube all right. 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:38.040 We want to talk a little bit about something our 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.320 Bloomberg Business Week Pursuit's team att covered in a big 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:43.480 way earlier this year. It's about the market for sleep 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:46.600 tracking devices, some fourteen and a half billion, projected to 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:50.679 reach more than sixty one billion dollars by twenty thirty. 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.559 This as a staggering fifty percent of the population is 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:55.840 sleep deprived. You are not. 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:56.760 Well. 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.200 Here's the thing. I slip on a sleep tracking device 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.000 every night because over the past couple of years, I've 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:03.800 had to wake up at two o'clock in the morning 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.800 every day for my early show appearance, and so I 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:09.800 wanted to make sure I was tracking my sleep and 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:14.240 hopefully getting enough to survive. I only averaged about six 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:16.920 hours a night over the past couple of years. But 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:19.640 since since I've dropped that schedule a month ago, I've 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:22.080 been averaging more than eight hours a night, and I 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:27.240 feel fantastic, like I've come off of an acid trip, 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:30.400 Like I can actually think clearly again. It's unbelievable, the 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:38.960 difference in cognitive power between being sleep deprived and getting 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:40.400 your full solid eight hours. 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:42.560 Well, that's what we want to talk about with Adam Spiro. 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:44.520 He's Professor in the Department of Mental Health at the 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.200 Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, supported as you 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:49.559 know by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder of Bloomberg LP and 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:53.560 Bloomberg Philanthropies. Adam joining us on zoom from Baltimore. Adam, 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:55.640 I couldn't agree more with Matt. If I get a 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:58.040 good night's sleep, the world is mine. When I'm not, 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.520 it feels like everything just hurt and everything's a problem. 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.960 So talk to us about the importance of sleep and 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.920 why we're not all getting better sleep and more sleep. 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:10.800 Yeah, well, you're absolutely right. 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.480 Sleep is connected to so many aspects of our health 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:18.440 and wellness, from our mood and emotions, to our ability 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:24.920 to think clearly, to aspects of our metabolism, to cardiovascular health. 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.640 You name it, sleep is linked to it, and good 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:33.920 sleep supports good health. More broadly, and yes, a substantial 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:38.240 proportion of the US population is sleep deprived, and some 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:40.600 of us are doing that because we do not have 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:44.400 the opportunity to get the sleep we need due to schedules, 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:49.400 demands on us from work, or the social environment like family. 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:51.600 Or caregiving, or you name it. 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:54.240 Some of us are not getting enough sleep because the 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:58.000 neighborhoods we're in, or have noise pollution or light pollution. 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:00.520 Some of us are not getting enough sleep because we 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:05.679 have frank sleep disorders like a clinical insomnia disorder or 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:09.439 sleep disordered breathing or sleep apnea. So there are many. 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.800 But then there are others of us who voluntarily forego 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.400 sleep because we want to binge the rest of that series, 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.160 or we are on social media. 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:21.960 So a lot of us are. 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:24.640 Not that as Carol by the way, yeah, I'm Carol 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:27.880 has Basically it's so funny because, like. 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:29.560 You know, you need to have a schedule. I think 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.360 about my dad. He was like so disciplined and up 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.560 at the same time, went to bed at the same time. 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.080 I'm not good about that. How how much of that 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:38.839 is a bad thing? Like you need to have some 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:40.000 kind of regular schedule. 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:45.400 Well, so if you have a sleep problem, we recommend 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:47.360 that you one of the first things that you do 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:52.280 is set a good standard non varying wake up times, 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.040 so you wake up at the same time every day 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:54.880 if you. 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:59.480 Have insomnia, for example, and that really supports good sleep health. 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:03.720 It is really important, all right, So we wanted to 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:08.080 talk about the link between sleep problems and Alzheimer's disease 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:12.520 or sleep problems and dementia. And I wonder if it's 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:14.920 kind of a chicken and egg thing. Do people who 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.240 have sleep problems are they more likely to develop dementia 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.560 or Alzheimer's disease, Or is it people who already have 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.920 Alzheimer's disease or already experienced dementia they then have sleep problems. 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:28.800 Well, I think that you hit the nail on the 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:30.680 head there. 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.520 It's a bi directional relationship, is how we're really thinking 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:36.600 about it these days. Where we used to think when 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.280 we thought about sleep in Alzheimer's disease, we used to 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:42.559 think that sleep disturbances happened in people with Alzheimer's disease 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.120 because their brains changed, and people who either care for 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.960 people with Alzheimer's disease or clinicians who work with them, 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.520 family members who might have someone with Alzheimer's disease in 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.960 the house become quite aware of the significant sleep disturbance 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.800 that is really common in that population. So that was 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:02.439 the direction that people first thought about, But really, over 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.080 the last decade or so a little more than that, 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.680 now people have really come to realize that sleep disturbance 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.080 is associated with an increased risk for dementia and could 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:16.840 well play a causal role in promoting dementia and Alzheimer's 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:18.000 disease in particular. 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:23.400 All right, so people who have no excuses are in college. 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:25.080 If you don't have to be at work at five 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:28.040 o'clock in the morning, you should put down your Twitter, 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:30.680 stop watching your Netflix, and go to sleep. 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:36.080 Yeah, he's right, he's right. I get the No, it's 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.400 just well, why is it that though we have a 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:42.320 harder time falling asleep as we get older, and like 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:44.920 I was a kid, would sleep until eleven or noon 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.080 on a Saturday. You know easily, I can't do that anymore. 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.480 Well, so you were talking about two different things which 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.880 are really interesting. So we do notice and oftentimes you 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:59.679 mentioned when you were a kid. Teenagers notoriously get mislabeled 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.160 as because what they end up doing is they can 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.040 sleep a really long time. And when we're younger that 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:08.160 our need for sleep is greater. And the clock in 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.319 our brain that basically tells us when to sleep and 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.920 when to be awake is basically telling us to go 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.720 to bed later and to wake up later. It's what 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:23.640 we call a circadian phase delay and that is one 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:26.280 of the reasons that there's been a big push nationally 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:31.560 by sleep advocates to move school start times later. But 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.560 you asked another question, which is as you get older, 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.520 and I assume you didn't need from child adolescents per se. 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:39.760 I was asking this for Matt because as he gets older. 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:40.920 I'm sorry for Adam. 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:46.960 Yeah, well me too. But as people get older, from 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:50.480 middle aged to older adulthood, they tend to there are 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.360 some changes that we believe just happened as part of 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.480 the aging process, where our short sleep gets a bit shorter, 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:01.400 a bit more fragmented, and it becomes import lighter. We 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.280 don't know as much of that deep restorative sleep. It's 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:06.920 harder for us to get and we think that that 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:12.080 happens even in the absence of medical conditions. Chronuct medical conditions. 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:16.760 But way more people have sleep problems than would be 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:20.240 accounted for by those normal age related sleep changes when 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.160 you look at older adults, and really the big drivers 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:28.080 of those we think are medical problems and medications we 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.920 take for those problems. That's a big driver of why 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.080 we develop them, but it's not the only driver. 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:35.640 What do you think about sleep trackers? By the way, 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:37.360 we opened up talking about you know, I wear an 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.600 Apple Watch, but there are a number of other products 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:44.280 out there that purportedly track sleep. I think, look looking 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:44.520 at the. 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:45.120 Data and. 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.600 Assessing, you know, my experience with it, the Apple Watch 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:52.040 does a pretty good job. But I noticed I only 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:56.000 go into deep sleep for the first, you know, thirty 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.360 forty minutes of the night, and then I never go 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.320 back there again. And I don't know if if that's 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.400 because the watch isn't very good at tracking the stages 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:08.280 of sleep, or because I really only had experienced deep 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:09.800 sleep at the beginning of my eight hours. 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:13.120 So this is really a great point. There are two 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:13.920 sort of issues here. 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.440 First of all, we do under normal condition spend more 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:19.880 time in deep sleep in the first part of the 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.280 night and less and less as the night wears on. 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:27.000 And conversely, we spend an increasing amount of sleep in 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:29.720 rem sleep when we do most of our dreaming as 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.720 the night goes on. So your watch might be right 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.280 about you spending more in the early part than in 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:38.000 the late part. But I will say this about sleep trackers. 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:40.960 The only way that you can definitively tell if someone 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.800 is awake or asleep is by putting electrodes or some 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.320 sort of a sensor on their head so that you 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:51.720 can detect electrical signals from the brain. That is the definitive, 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.880 gold standard measure of sleep. In the absence of that, 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.480 we cannot rely solely on devices for truth. 0:16:58.600 --> 0:16:59.560 For ground truth. 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.480 This is isn't awake or asleep, right, So that being said, 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:07.280 for decades now, sleep researchers have relied on devices that 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.440 we've referred to as actigraphs a lot of the time. 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.040 And these are accelerometers that you would wear on your 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.800 wrist and they used to be clunky analog things, and 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:20.960 they've developed to be quite sleek and now and they 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.480 basically are accelerometers that and they capitalize on the fact 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:27.520 that people and animals as well, by the way, move 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:32.760 less when they're sleeping in general. Yeah, right, and so yeah, 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.600 but those devices, those trackers, they're not all created equal. 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:37.480 I would put it that way and say, so that's 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:38.240 something to consider. 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:39.360 I need to get some brain. 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:40.960 Electro All right, You've got to come back soon because 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:44.040 I have still a million questions. So Adam, I feel 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:46.199 like it just relates. We all can relate to this. 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:48.920 Adam really enjoyed it. Adam Spira a professor in the 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.280 Department of Mental Health at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:53.720 Public Health, joining us from Baltimore. I mean, when I 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:55.880 go to sleep, I'm like head to toe with stuff. 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:57.640 We'll talk about it later. Maybe what. 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:02.679 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.840 live weekday afternoons from three to six Easter on Bloomberg Radio, 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:10.200 the Bloomberg Business app, and YouTube. You can also listen 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:13.440 live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:16.639 Just Say Alexa playing Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:20.760 You might remember from the last monthly read on the 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:23.440 US labor market, it showed that the unemployment rate increased 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:26.240 for black people from April to May from four point 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.239 seven percent to five point six percent. Black women were 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.760 the most affected, specifically those who work in the public sector. Again, 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.919 according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, They're unemployment rate 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.400 increased from four point four percent in April to five 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:40.600 point three percent in May. That's a pretty big jump. 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:43.320 And matth there's a new documentary that tracks the paths 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.760 of three black women, all single mothers, who found a 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.800 better way forward and jobs in the process. Check it out. 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.800 We want them to find a job, and then a 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:55.840 better job, and then a career. 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:59.919 To imagine myself in a career of posts to just 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.040 the job was definitely far fetched. 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:04.840 My kid's very proud of me. 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:08.280 I know that I was working very hard district change. 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:08.439 Oh. 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.520 I like the journey has changed my life in a 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:13.120 way that I could never invasion. 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.680 All right again, a new short documentary film. We want 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.840 to get to the executive producer of video content development 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.960 and production at the workforce focused nonprofit Working Nation. She's 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.440 director of the short, Melissa Panzer. She's with us on 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.560 Zoom from Los Angeles. And forgive me they were three 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:32.600 women of color. I just want to clarify that. Melissa. 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:34.840 Good to have you here with Matt and myself here. 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:37.480 Tell us a little bit about this documentary. We have, 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:39.120 of course heard a little clip, but tell us about 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:39.720 these three women. 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:41.680 Sure well. 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:43.720 First of all, Carol, Matt, thanks so much for having 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:48.800 me this afternoon. This was These women are just an 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.520 incredible story, all three of them. There's one woman who 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:56.440 immigrated from Jordan who's featured in the film. She didn't 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:58.880 speak any English when she arrived in the United States. 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:01.840 She lived it in domestic Island's shelter for forty two days. 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.960 Upon arrival, her husband kicked her and her children out 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.280 of their home when it was really, really a horrible 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.760