WEBVTT - Part Two: Lesbian Mutual AID During the AIDS Crisis

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<v Speaker 1>Cool Zone Media, Hello and welcome to Cool People Do

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<v Speaker 1>Cool Stuff. You're weekly twice weekly reminder that when there's

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<v Speaker 1>bad things, there's good things. I'm your host, Margot Kiljoy

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<v Speaker 1>and my guest who I was I should have I'm

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<v Speaker 1>now hamming it up because they took a moment to

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<v Speaker 1>take a drink is Andrew t.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Hi, thanks for having me again, my plan continuing.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, I got to kind of brag to

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<v Speaker 1>my friends the first time you came on my show.

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<v Speaker 1>But people heard me say this the first time you

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<v Speaker 1>came on. But we used to read you know, is

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<v Speaker 1>this racist? Was it Tumblr or something?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that's so.

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<v Speaker 1>That is coming on twenty years ago, as.

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<v Speaker 2>I know what's not that?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah totally, But yeah, we used to We used to

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<v Speaker 1>sit around and you know, yell, oh shit at all

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<v Speaker 1>the cool stories that you would share on that.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I mean, you know what, it was a

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<v Speaker 2>fun time. I actually someone had just reached out on

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<v Speaker 2>Blue Sky and was like, I don't know if you

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<v Speaker 2>remember you wrote this one line that I quote all

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<v Speaker 2>the time, and I did not remember the line, but

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<v Speaker 2>it was very nice.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you remember the line now?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? Yeah, yeah, the line truly is. It's not remarkable.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just like, first of all, go fuck yourself, and

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<v Speaker 2>second of all, YadA YadA. But I guess the phrasing.

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<v Speaker 2>The phrasing landed, but I was like, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>I just talked like that all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I like it. It's a little bit of

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<v Speaker 1>confusing because you know, when you when you produce content

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<v Speaker 1>as your job, you don't remember everything that you say.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 1>But so that it's like interesting when people are like, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>you said this thing, and I'm like, I believe you.

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<v Speaker 1>That sounds like something I would say, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>It typically at least sounds like me. So I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think anyone's being disingenuous, but I'm like, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know, or for Yosa's racist. Sometimes people would be like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>when you you answered this question on the pod, and I.

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<v Speaker 1>Was like, yeah, I believe you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah I hope.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah. Well, we are in part two of an

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<v Speaker 1>episode about lesbian stepping the fuck up during the AIDS crisis,

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<v Speaker 1>and when we last left part one, people were the

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<v Speaker 1>blood Sisters were leaving Warhammer forty K to take care

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<v Speaker 1>of people, and I don't know, I kind of like

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<v Speaker 1>these episodes that are like collections of individual stories, you know, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>sort of vignette episodes, because it's really interesting to me

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<v Speaker 1>doing research on the AIDS epidemic is like one of

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<v Speaker 1>the more researched historical events right in a lot of ways.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's interesting because a lot of it is I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know if you, I don't know the right word here.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not like full history, but a lot of it

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<v Speaker 1>is like oral history projects. There's a lot of like sure,

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<v Speaker 1>I was reading a lot more archives and a lot

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<v Speaker 1>more you know, reports about individual people as compared to

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't pick up a book called like Lesbian Step

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<v Speaker 1>the fuck Up during the AIDS crisis, the book right now.

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<v Speaker 2>And well also I do I do think to your

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<v Speaker 2>point also about the like the individual stories nature of

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<v Speaker 2>this is I prefer that sort of look at history

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<v Speaker 2>also because I increasingly, especially like really do not subscribe

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<v Speaker 2>to the sort of like great person of history model.

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<v Speaker 2>And it is just like it doesn't really matter whether

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<v Speaker 2>it was like a collective action or a series of

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<v Speaker 2>collective actions or independent actions not even collective. Maybe that

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<v Speaker 2>made X or y thing happen. Yeah, yeah, I just

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<v Speaker 2>like as opposed to like, uh, you know, the Great Man.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess it's always great.

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<v Speaker 1>Almost always is.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I was like I was very well, wok are you

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<v Speaker 1>to say the great personal history?

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<v Speaker 2>But it's like that's not how history works, right, that's

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<v Speaker 2>not the problem.

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<v Speaker 1>And like one of the problems with the Great Man

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<v Speaker 1>theory of history is it gets people off the hook

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<v Speaker 1>too easily because like, yeah, we are living in history,

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<v Speaker 1>we are making history, and so we tend to think

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<v Speaker 1>like either we are the most amazing important person, like

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<v Speaker 1>we're either Fred Hampton or nobody. Yeah, you know, and

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<v Speaker 1>that's just not true, right, Like, and Fred Hampton was

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<v Speaker 1>an amazing person. He was so amazing that the government

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<v Speaker 1>had to kill him. But like it's all of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that come together, and it's all of the people.

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<v Speaker 1>It's all of the individual people doing all of this stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>you know.

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<v Speaker 2>And on the on the evil men of history side,

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<v Speaker 2>like as we were talked about last episode, like yes,

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<v Speaker 2>Ronald regularly indisputably like evil, but truly like his power,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and as we see with like the Donald Trump,

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<v Speaker 2>it's like the power doesn't come from Donald Trump makes

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<v Speaker 2>it more stark because it's like obvious that he doesn't have.

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<v Speaker 2>He has like a type of charisma, but he does

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<v Speaker 2>not have savvy or intelligence or whatever. But what he

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<v Speaker 2>does have is this apparatus of like fascists that are

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<v Speaker 2>moving this thing forward. And those are all the nameless

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<v Speaker 2>people of history or you know, relatively nameless compared to

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<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump, but they're the ones doing it. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>this era of Reagan or soon to be, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>going into this era of Reagan is like you know,

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<v Speaker 2>when he was in severe mental decline and the agenda

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<v Speaker 2>didn't pause for a second. So he's not drive. He

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<v Speaker 2>didn't create or drive or like give the you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he was sort of just like a figurehead, especially near the.

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<v Speaker 1>End, especially even in the like figurehead is like literally

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<v Speaker 1>the thing on the front of the ship, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like the icon of this thing, like oh, we're all

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<v Speaker 1>doing it for Mermaid lady or yeah you know, yeah, yeah, no,

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<v Speaker 1>that is a good point. Well, the next vignette I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to do is going to be the first person

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<v Speaker 1>I featured on the podcast whose Instagram page I found, which.

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<v Speaker 2>Makes me nervous.

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<v Speaker 1>Specific when I first started this show, I actually wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>going to do anything from about nineteen fifty onwards because

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<v Speaker 1>I was like, oh, I'm going to stick to history,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm going to stick to like a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>more settled history. And also like specifically, I was like,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to talk about someone who's alive and

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<v Speaker 1>get it wrong. And it was kind of a cop

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<v Speaker 1>out because then eventually I realized I was like, well,

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of important stuff and interesting stuff happened, Like

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<v Speaker 1>I'm still probably not going to do like current events

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<v Speaker 1>on this show, you know, but like but also, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>one of my whole favorite things about the show is

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<v Speaker 1>like pointing fairly clearly to historical patterns and be like see, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, it doesn't matter whether it's a current event.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like, you know, we're pretty evidently at least in

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<v Speaker 2>our natural lifetime's not going to be pushing equality for word.

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<v Speaker 1>The whole apparatus could collapse and then we can Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I suppose, sure, but we're.

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<v Speaker 1>On the defensive right now. I will yit.

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<v Speaker 2>We're on the defensive, right yeah, yeah, yeah, we will

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<v Speaker 2>be lucky to claw back gains that existed in our lives.

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<v Speaker 2>I would I would say.

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<v Speaker 1>You're probably right. But the person whose Instagram page I

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<v Speaker 1>found is Bishop Evette Flunder who is a who is

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<v Speaker 1>whose bishop? Underscore flunder for anyone who's.

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<v Speaker 2>And a delightful vabe, delightful, vab delightful handle.

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<v Speaker 1>I know, and this woman ruled. She probably still rules.

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<v Speaker 1>She's a queer Black gospel singer who did an astounding

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<v Speaker 1>amount for people with AIDS, in particular in making sure

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<v Speaker 1>that black communities and communities of faith weren't left out

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<v Speaker 1>of the conversation. She was watching so many people die

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<v Speaker 1>in the bay and was like, all right, we're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>do something. And one of the things her and her

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<v Speaker 1>broader community did was start an underground clinic, working with

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<v Speaker 1>something called Compound Q. This is literally an underground clinic.

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<v Speaker 1>It was in the basement of her church. Unless there

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<v Speaker 1>are multiple such clinics in San Francisco at the time,

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<v Speaker 1>I believe this was called Project Inform. I there's a

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<v Speaker 1>bunch of articles about them, and they're all not quite

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<v Speaker 1>lining up. Is where I'm at about this particular moment

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<v Speaker 1>of history. But I think something too important because I'm

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<v Speaker 1>now going to talk about illegal studies of untested drugs, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm going to talk about it as a positive thing.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think the thing that is important to understand

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<v Speaker 1>about the AIDS crisis is that people were being failed

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<v Speaker 1>and masked by the government and the CDC. So AIDS

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<v Speaker 1>activists themselves had to become the experts on their own illness.

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<v Speaker 1>And we covered this a bunch of the act Up

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<v Speaker 1>episodes that one of the things that act Up the

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<v Speaker 1>kind of primary direct action group working on the AIDS

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<v Speaker 1>crisis in the United States. One of the primary things

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<v Speaker 1>they did was get people with AIDS into conversation with

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<v Speaker 1>the CDC and like make sure their voices were actually

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<v Speaker 1>heard and become actual experts on the science, not just

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<v Speaker 1>like I'm an expert on my own experience, but like

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<v Speaker 1>literally an expert on the surrounding stuff too, you know, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I wonder. I mean again, it's like like drag parallels

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<v Speaker 2>today it is so like totally you don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>like fall into this like do your own research people trap.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, But it's so messy, right, Yeah, because when you say, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>do your own research, you mean like go find things

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<v Speaker 1>that conform to your own echo chamber and like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>go like convince yourself that vaccines are bad or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, but you do, Yeah, actual research might need

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<v Speaker 2>to be done, right, I guess it's the word research

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<v Speaker 2>has been completely bastardized.

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<v Speaker 1>No, no, totally, no, it's it's so sketchy. This is

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<v Speaker 1>the thing about being critical about like government infrastructure of

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<v Speaker 1>health is that you're like, well about half of the

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<v Speaker 1>people at least who are critical the government infrastructure on

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<v Speaker 1>health are doing it in really bad ways.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah you know, yeah, yeah yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>But like a lot of my friends do DIYHRT, like

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<v Speaker 1>hormone replacement therapy, and there is like a fairly broad

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<v Speaker 1>established community working on trying to do this as safely

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<v Speaker 1>as possible. It's not what I would specifically recommend any

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<v Speaker 1>listener who's like, oh, it might be trands, I'm like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what I actually think because by and large,

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<v Speaker 1>like most trans clinics that come out of literally old

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<v Speaker 1>AIDS clinics. You know, there's a trans affirming clinic that

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<v Speaker 1>I would go to for a long time, and they

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<v Speaker 1>like specifically calm out of an AIDS clinic, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's actually an important thing to remember about it too, Right, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a kind of a tangent, but we were talking

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<v Speaker 1>earlier about mutual aid, and you're talking about how like

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<v Speaker 1>the limitation of mutually ad how you don't have any

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<v Speaker 1>bulldozers because you haven't stolen any yet. And and so

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<v Speaker 1>then I told you how to steal them. I mean

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<v Speaker 1>that didn't happen.

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<v Speaker 2>How one could. Yeah, that's the thing is, that's the

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<v Speaker 2>important thing, is like, yeah, no one knows.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean I wouldn't know how to dry one.

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<v Speaker 1>But like people see formal and informal disaster relief as

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<v Speaker 1>entirely separate spheres, and they're not right. Yeah, Like formal

0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:20.959
<v Speaker 1>disaster relief relies on informal disaster relief at the very

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<v Speaker 1>least for the last mile problem. Right, If you show

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<v Speaker 1>up and you're like, oh, we put all this stuff

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<v Speaker 1>in a warehouse, how does it get to where it

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<v Speaker 1>needs to go? The answer is like, well, if it's

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<v Speaker 1>in if it's in western North Carolina, it means like

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<v Speaker 1>people will pick up trucks or mules, you know, And

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<v Speaker 1>it's just different in different areas. But like I think

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<v Speaker 1>that sometimes health, like the aid's response, is another situation

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<v Speaker 1>where there's formal and informal, and the informal is pushing

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<v Speaker 1>the formal, yes to be good.

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<v Speaker 2>I will say, actually a thing that I didn't say

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<v Speaker 2>last episode about just like the things that were happening

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<v Speaker 2>around the wildfires. Is as much as I was putting

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<v Speaker 2>in sort of friendly, friendly digs and jokes about the

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<v Speaker 2>mutual aid community, I will actually say the thing that

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<v Speaker 2>was also very evident and eye opening for me, and

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<v Speaker 2>maybe less eye opening for some but definitely opening for

0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:21.199
<v Speaker 2>me was the formal like humanitarian response not better. Yeah,

0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.360
<v Speaker 2>like fucking Red Cross is also just made up of

0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:29.040
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of people with incomplete information, and they also

0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:32.679
<v Speaker 2>have the added layer of sort of not necessarily the purest.

0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.360
<v Speaker 1>Motives and slowness with red tape.

0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:38.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so they it is. Yeah, so I should say,

0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.800
<v Speaker 2>like for all my joking about you know, yeah, fucking

0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:48.280
<v Speaker 2>communists are always late, like whatever, you know, And I'm

0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:52.400
<v Speaker 2>not saying these organizations are necessarily bad, but even like

0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, your Planned Parenthoods, your Red Crosses or whatever

0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.080
<v Speaker 2>the fox, you know, you're good parts of the federal government.

0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:00.960
<v Speaker 2>They're not necessarily better are at this shit than you

0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:02.200
<v Speaker 2>and your friends? Right?

0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:04.720
<v Speaker 1>And they're also, like you said, they're made up of

0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:09.360
<v Speaker 1>people you know, and so often those people are like,

0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.719
<v Speaker 1>oh whoops, all this was supposed to go to the

0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:14.640
<v Speaker 1>Red Cross, where it was sit around a warehouse but

0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:16.200
<v Speaker 1>I seem to have left it here in front of

0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:16.680
<v Speaker 1>you punks.

0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:20.080
<v Speaker 2>Gotta go yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and that's the version

0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.120
<v Speaker 2>that works, or it's just like, oh, the Red Cross

0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.320
<v Speaker 2>also didn't know where all these supplies should go.

0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:26.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah totally.

0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:30.320
<v Speaker 2>So like you know, they don't they're not magic. They

0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.680
<v Speaker 2>don't have like a system, even though we want them

0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.480
<v Speaker 2>to know. They don't necessarily have a system. What they

0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:38.880
<v Speaker 2>do have a little bit is a little more experience

0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:41.319
<v Speaker 2>and vastly more resources.

0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:42.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, totally.

0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:43.920
<v Speaker 2>Well.

0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:48.280
<v Speaker 1>The compound Q was an experimental drug in the late eighties.

0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:50.640
<v Speaker 1>I was being tested in tiny doses, and it was

0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.160
<v Speaker 1>like being formally tested in a clinical setting in the

0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:58.920
<v Speaker 1>hospital nearby hospital. But people were like, look, we are

0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.400
<v Speaker 1>going to die. We are we have a disease with

0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:05.680
<v Speaker 1>a one hundred percent mortality rate. People were willing to

0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:06.440
<v Speaker 1>try anything.

0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:07.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, who cares.

0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.120
<v Speaker 1>Aids patients and doctors worked illegally together to run tests.

0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.240
<v Speaker 1>They knew that folks were going to try injecting this

0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.040
<v Speaker 1>stuff at home, so why not trying to do it

0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.440
<v Speaker 1>in a more controlled environment where the lessons could be

0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.800
<v Speaker 1>applied to others. I want to know more about this part.

0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.800
<v Speaker 1>I will say like there's like I started reading about

0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.160
<v Speaker 1>like how many people died as a result of this

0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.520
<v Speaker 1>these tests and you know, all of these comparing mortality stuff.

0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:35.280
<v Speaker 1>That is maybe a story for another day.

0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm sure some of that information is not available

0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.240
<v Speaker 2>or some of it would have to have been, you know.

0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.040
<v Speaker 2>And again, you know, maybe this was not the right compromise.

0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:51.560
<v Speaker 2>And I am purely speculating, but like, sometimes it might

0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.760
<v Speaker 2>not be available for legal reasons, for legal peril, et cetera.

0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.600
<v Speaker 1>Like, Well, what's interesting is that people who are involved

0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.240
<v Speaker 1>in this do talk about it really openly, and they

0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:02.040
<v Speaker 1>actually like, I mean partly because they're like, well, what

0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:03.000
<v Speaker 1>the hell do we have to lose?

0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:04.520
<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, what are you going to do?

0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? And like and the people who weren't dying of

0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.200
<v Speaker 1>h e ades were like, but I have a moral

0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.320
<v Speaker 1>imperative to try and save people. And so it was

0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:16.040
<v Speaker 1>like literally, you know, it was like five hundred patients

0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:19.280
<v Speaker 1>and six doctors working at this clinic, you know, and

0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:23.000
<v Speaker 1>they like supposedly and there's people arguing one way or

0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:25.360
<v Speaker 1>the other about this, they actually gave the CDC a

0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.240
<v Speaker 1>heads up that they were going to do this. Oh no,

0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:32.280
<v Speaker 1>not the CDC, the the people, h no, what did

0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:36.440
<v Speaker 1>FDA maybe, Oh sure, yeah, they like gave them a

0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:38.960
<v Speaker 1>heads up that they were going to do this, and

0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.840
<v Speaker 1>then the FDA was like, oh, I don't know that's

0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.240
<v Speaker 1>out over there, you know, yea, And so it was

0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.760
<v Speaker 1>kind of a like I think there was like a

0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:50.880
<v Speaker 1>wink and a nod coming from institutions because they were

0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:54.160
<v Speaker 1>probably like, yeah, no, that makes sense. All those people

0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.560
<v Speaker 1>are going to die, yeah, you know. And then also

0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.240
<v Speaker 1>it's hard because like some of the articles I read

0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:01.960
<v Speaker 1>were from nineteen eighty nine, when a lot of this

0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:05.560
<v Speaker 1>stuff happened, and so like I didn't find the articles

0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:06.720
<v Speaker 1>on the follow up. This is the thing that I've

0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:08.920
<v Speaker 1>run across a lot. A lot of stuff is newsworthy

0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:11.080
<v Speaker 1>when it first happens, but then the long term results

0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:15.240
<v Speaker 1>aren't as like immediately available to lazy researchers, I mean,

0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:19.040
<v Speaker 1>hard working researchers.

0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.680
<v Speaker 2>Right, and well, but you know, like all things like

0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.880
<v Speaker 2>they are just less likely to be published. Like it's

0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.480
<v Speaker 2>just like you got the headline and you move on.

0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:31.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah and yeah. So out of this church, doctors and

0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:33.720
<v Speaker 1>patients were working together and you know, and there were

0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.480
<v Speaker 1>some positive it was a very toxic drug, right, But

0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.160
<v Speaker 1>it like people were seeing results and stuff like that,

0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.360
<v Speaker 1>and so people were trying it, and Bishop Flunder worked

0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:49.880
<v Speaker 1>tirelessly for AIDS patients. She wrote once quote in those years,

0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 1>there weren't a lot of men who were engaged with

0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:53.920
<v Speaker 1>this work, not a lot of men who were involved

0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:56.880
<v Speaker 1>in handling people with HIV and interacting with people up close.

0:16:57.480 --> 0:16:59.440
<v Speaker 1>There were a lot of women, though, And I can

0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.360
<v Speaker 1>remember when most of the folks who would really actually

0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:05.199
<v Speaker 1>touch people and engage with people were women. And I

0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.520
<v Speaker 1>was one of those women, and I was surrounded by

0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:12.640
<v Speaker 1>other women. And so her and the people she's working with,

0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:16.280
<v Speaker 1>they also built faith based AIDS organizations. They worked with

0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.240
<v Speaker 1>act UP and called themselves blacked up because there weren't

0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:21.480
<v Speaker 1>enough black voices in the act UP movement from there. Yeah,

0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:23.600
<v Speaker 1>well there weren't. So they were working to correct that.

0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.119
<v Speaker 1>And then, in one of the most like amount of

0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:30.520
<v Speaker 1>effort to amount of dollars won by a direct action

0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:33.359
<v Speaker 1>I've ever seen in my life, her and a bunch

0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:39.080
<v Speaker 1>of other black AIDS activists and faith AIDS activists were

0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.240
<v Speaker 1>having a meeting with the CDC and they were trying

0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:43.639
<v Speaker 1>to get them to design a minority AIDS initiative to

0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.840
<v Speaker 1>like work inside communities that weren't white or whatever, and

0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:49.920
<v Speaker 1>they weren't being taken seriously, so they just like did

0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:52.280
<v Speaker 1>a walk out, and it was like it looked really

0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.160
<v Speaker 1>bad because it was all the like pastors and shit

0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.399
<v Speaker 1>had just walked out. So they got half a billion

0:17:58.440 --> 0:17:59.240
<v Speaker 1>dollars of funding.

0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:07.800
<v Speaker 2>Like, yeah, I mean, we'll see, we'll see if anything

0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:08.960
<v Speaker 2>like that ever continues.

0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:12.840
<v Speaker 1>But I know good, I know good. She did an

0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.280
<v Speaker 1>awful lot of work, I believe, with others to develop

0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.840
<v Speaker 1>a theological framework within Christianity to support queer people and

0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.320
<v Speaker 1>people with aids. And a lot of her work was

0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:25.520
<v Speaker 1>like specifically two faith communities to be like hey, stop

0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:30.600
<v Speaker 1>abandoning people, you know, And people fucking hated her for that.

0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:33.320
<v Speaker 1>That was the thing, not the illegal drug tests, not

0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.840
<v Speaker 1>the like you know, sure people hated her in the

0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:40.840
<v Speaker 1>conservative parts of religious communities. Yeah, someone shot out the

0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:44.159
<v Speaker 1>back window of her car. Someone else shot through the

0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.520
<v Speaker 1>window of her bedroom. These were different events. She never

0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:49.880
<v Speaker 1>figured out who did it, but she's pretty sure it

0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:52.400
<v Speaker 1>was like I think it was even like someone from

0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:54.080
<v Speaker 1>like a church that she went to or something, but

0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:56.760
<v Speaker 1>it was like people from within faith communities who were like, no,

0:18:56.880 --> 0:19:01.680
<v Speaker 1>fuck you, right, And to this day she has ashes

0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.440
<v Speaker 1>on the altar of her office of the people whose

0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:08.800
<v Speaker 1>families wouldn't take them, And that's like an image from

0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.040
<v Speaker 1>everything that I'm like reading today. The stuff that happens

0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:14.879
<v Speaker 1>with people's ashes when they're abandoned is like one of

0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:19.639
<v Speaker 1>the things that sticks with me. She went on to

0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:23.040
<v Speaker 1>serve on Obama's HIV AIDS Council, and she's now senior

0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:25.760
<v Speaker 1>pastor of the City of Refuge United Church of Christ,

0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.480
<v Speaker 1>a radically inclusive congregation in the Bank. And I think

0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:31.040
<v Speaker 1>actually was her. I can't remember. I read a lot

0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:32.600
<v Speaker 1>of these vignettes all at once and then didn't put

0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:34.720
<v Speaker 1>it in the script. Several of them made it really

0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.199
<v Speaker 1>clear to include trans women among the people who were

0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.080
<v Speaker 1>suffering and dying and like really speak and like trans

0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:42.720
<v Speaker 1>inclusive language that I really appreciate it. So that was you,

0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.239
<v Speaker 1>and you're listening, I appreciate it. And if you're not listening, well,

0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:47.760
<v Speaker 1>then you won't hear this. And if it wasn't you,

0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:50.359
<v Speaker 1>well I believe you would have done it too, because

0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:54.000
<v Speaker 1>you seem nice. Yeah, but you know what I would

0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.480
<v Speaker 1>be annoyed at if I was listening to a podcast

0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:00.199
<v Speaker 1>about myself from actions I did forty years later. I

0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:04.840
<v Speaker 1>would be annoyed at missing out on the sweet sweet

0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:09.520
<v Speaker 1>deals offered by our advertisers. But you don't have to

0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:13.720
<v Speaker 1>because you can hear them. Well, not you, but the listener.

0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:14.679
<v Speaker 2>This way's around it.

0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:31.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, anyway, here's ads. Then we're back. Okay, another one

0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:35.560
<v Speaker 1>of these stories. In Salt Lake City. You have another

0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:37.560
<v Speaker 1>sort of example of how everything can go down and

0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:39.720
<v Speaker 1>how complicated this world that we live in can be.

0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.600
<v Speaker 1>There was an infectious disease expert in Salt Lake City,

0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:48.040
<v Speaker 1>a lesbian named doctor Kristen Rice. She had just moved

0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:49.840
<v Speaker 1>to Salt Lake City in nineteen eighty one. She like

0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.879
<v Speaker 1>literally moved there the same day that I think the

0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:57.360
<v Speaker 1>CDC was like, hey, Grid is happening, you know, right,

0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:00.879
<v Speaker 1>And her and a bunch of game started the AIDS

0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:04.880
<v Speaker 1>Project Utah. As best as I can tell, this happened

0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:07.960
<v Speaker 1>like a lot of these other things where a lesbian

0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:10.560
<v Speaker 1>and some gay men start a gay thing and then

0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.000
<v Speaker 1>the lesbian's the only one left to run it, right.

0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:20.119
<v Speaker 1>And there's another woman, a PA, a physician's assistant who's

0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:24.760
<v Speaker 1>working with doctor Kristen Rice. Maggie Snyder. The two actually

0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:26.800
<v Speaker 1>fall in love doing this work, and they're still together today,

0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:29.280
<v Speaker 1>and it's like really sweet. They're like, meet cute is

0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:30.760
<v Speaker 1>like a fucking battlefield.

0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:36.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, yeah, I guess happens. Yeah, it's nice.

0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:38.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I guess real battlefields are also a lot of

0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:39.399
<v Speaker 1>gay couples meet cutes.

0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:42.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:45.159
<v Speaker 1>One of my favorite sayings from like gay liberation stuff

0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:48.880
<v Speaker 1>is an army of lovers cannot lose. Yeah, and it's

0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:52.199
<v Speaker 1>a reference to like some shit in Rome where like

0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:55.800
<v Speaker 1>the units of gay men or whatever. You know, it's

0:21:55.840 --> 0:22:01.920
<v Speaker 1>fucking good. Yeah. Anyway, Aggie, when talking about when she'd

0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:04.320
<v Speaker 1>just been working as a PA, told an interviewer for

0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:09.080
<v Speaker 1>The Body quote, nurses wouldn't go into patients rooms. And

0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:11.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm a person that always thinks everybody should get care,

0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:15.280
<v Speaker 1>so I wasn't fearful. I didn't understand why the nurses

0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:17.520
<v Speaker 1>didn't go in. As nurses, we took an oath to

0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:20.240
<v Speaker 1>take care of people, and to me, that meant you

0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:25.400
<v Speaker 1>take care of everybody. But Mormon, Utah was a really

0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:28.080
<v Speaker 1>rough place to be a gay person period, let alone

0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:33.400
<v Speaker 1>someone with AIDS. Right, Doctor Rice ended up the only

0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.399
<v Speaker 1>doctor in Utah or at least sat Lake City, but

0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:40.119
<v Speaker 1>I believe Utah who treated every aid's patient in the city.

0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:41.440
<v Speaker 2>Jesus.

0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:46.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they ended up partnering with when their clinic was

0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:48.840
<v Speaker 1>like a private clinic, because basically what would happen is

0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:51.640
<v Speaker 1>that as soon as you have like AIDS, your family

0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:53.399
<v Speaker 1>would kick you out, and then your job to fire you,

0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:55.560
<v Speaker 1>and then also your health insurance would be like now

0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:59.359
<v Speaker 1>we're good, we don't care, right, fuck you, you're the devil.

0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.360
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, I actually don't know the means by which

0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:04.160
<v Speaker 1>everyone was kicked off of their health care, but it's

0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:06.560
<v Speaker 1>certainly when I'm reading about this particular story, it seems

0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:08.720
<v Speaker 1>like everyone's getting kicked off their health care, and so

0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:11.240
<v Speaker 1>they end up going to the one clinic that will

0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:13.800
<v Speaker 1>take them, and so they end up partnering with a

0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.879
<v Speaker 1>Catholic hospital. The Sisters of the Holy Cross is a

0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:19.680
<v Speaker 1>congregation of nuns who worked at I believe Holy Cross Hospital,

0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:23.679
<v Speaker 1>and the nuns then started throwing down two working to

0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:27.760
<v Speaker 1>help everybody there, like running errands and providing care and

0:23:27.880 --> 0:23:31.600
<v Speaker 1>early AIDS healthcare was more or less hospice care right right,

0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:34.080
<v Speaker 1>and the other I was like, oh, there's another story

0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:36.439
<v Speaker 1>about ashes in here that really affects me when I

0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:40.120
<v Speaker 1>think about it, is that a ton of gay Mormon

0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:43.320
<v Speaker 1>men who are abandoned by their families wound up with

0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:47.000
<v Speaker 1>their ashes and turned in the Catholic cemetery because the

0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:50.120
<v Speaker 1>Catholic Cemetery had a place that was like, no matter

0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:52.600
<v Speaker 1>who you are, you can have your ashes buried here.

0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:55.960
<v Speaker 1>You know, we'll take everyone, which brings me not to

0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:59.600
<v Speaker 1>an add transition. So the really bizarre role of the

0:23:59.640 --> 0:24:03.280
<v Speaker 1>Catholic Church during the AIDS crisis, I kind of assumed

0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:07.280
<v Speaker 1>it was like just universally bad, right, Yeah, it's not.

0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:09.920
<v Speaker 1>There's no middle ground. This is like I was talking

0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:11.959
<v Speaker 1>to my friend about this, like Oscar Wilde, I think

0:24:12.000 --> 0:24:13.760
<v Speaker 1>as a quote where he's like the Catholic churches for

0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:17.520
<v Speaker 1>saints and sinners. Yeah, like there's no middle fucking ground.

0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:22.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that is. I have very little, Like I

0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:26.760
<v Speaker 2>grew up with the religion and I didn't really have

0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:29.800
<v Speaker 2>a sense of this, but I have sense. Weirdly, I

0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:31.760
<v Speaker 2>feel like more than I would have thought in La

0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:37.600
<v Speaker 2>run into like you know, left wing Catholics, I guess.

0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:41.639
<v Speaker 2>And it is the thing where I'm like, okay, but

0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:45.760
<v Speaker 2>surely you see what this. I can't believe. I just

0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:47.840
<v Speaker 2>can't believe these people are willing to be part of

0:24:47.880 --> 0:24:50.200
<v Speaker 2>the larger institution of the Catholic Church.

0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:52.040
<v Speaker 1>That is the real messy part.

0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:56.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but they are and they are not conflicted, So yeah,

0:24:56.840 --> 0:24:58.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, what do I know? But yeah, it is

0:24:59.080 --> 0:25:01.800
<v Speaker 2>it is sort of eternal. Only surprising to me these

0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:03.240
<v Speaker 2>folks exist even though they do.

0:25:03.960 --> 0:25:06.200
<v Speaker 1>I was reading didn't end up in the script, but

0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:08.880
<v Speaker 1>I was reading this piece about a Catholic, a gay

0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:12.240
<v Speaker 1>Catholic during the AIDS crisis, and how he'd been super

0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:14.119
<v Speaker 1>Catholic but he was also just super gay and he

0:25:14.160 --> 0:25:16.280
<v Speaker 1>was just fine with it. But then during the AIDS crisis,

0:25:16.280 --> 0:25:17.600
<v Speaker 1>he was like fuck this and he left the church.

0:25:18.000 --> 0:25:19.439
<v Speaker 1>But then he actually came back to the church, and

0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:22.960
<v Speaker 1>his argument for why he came back was, I'm as

0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:25.960
<v Speaker 1>Catholic as the Pope is. I'm not going to let

0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:27.840
<v Speaker 1>them kick me out of my home. And so I

0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:30.359
<v Speaker 1>think it's like, because I'm kind of a like, I

0:25:30.400 --> 0:25:32.560
<v Speaker 1>think there's a lot of Catholic teachings I really appreciate

0:25:32.600 --> 0:25:34.320
<v Speaker 1>people have probably caught onto that from this show. But

0:25:34.359 --> 0:25:36.000
<v Speaker 1>I have a lot of critique of the Catholic Church

0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:38.040
<v Speaker 1>as an institution. People have probably also caught onto that

0:25:38.760 --> 0:25:40.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm sort of a like love the Catholic, hate the Church.

0:25:42.160 --> 0:25:45.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's just like the like I don't. I mean,

0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:48.639
<v Speaker 2>I think to me and again as an outsider who's

0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:52.280
<v Speaker 2>never had any religion, and yeah, I mean my biggest

0:25:52.280 --> 0:25:56.159
<v Speaker 2>shortcoming in religion talks is I do not see the

0:25:56.440 --> 0:25:59.320
<v Speaker 2>value of it, yeah, the same way that I think

0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:02.040
<v Speaker 2>people who really get a lot out of it do. So.

0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:06.360
<v Speaker 2>To me, the cost benefit analysis is like so skewed

0:26:06.359 --> 0:26:08.440
<v Speaker 2>towards What the fuck is wrong with you for doing this?

0:26:08.760 --> 0:26:08.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:26:09.000 --> 0:26:13.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because I'm just like, I just see huge damage

0:26:13.080 --> 0:26:18.159
<v Speaker 2>to society, humanity, the world because of this. So I

0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:21.919
<v Speaker 2>don't have a sense of, like, you know, the value

0:26:21.960 --> 0:26:24.800
<v Speaker 2>of it really yeah, which is my own deficit. But

0:26:25.280 --> 0:26:28.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean I'm just like, I don't know. You can

0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:30.560
<v Speaker 2>believe in a lot of teachings, but also like ten

0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:33.520
<v Speaker 2>percent of your money or however much you know that

0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:36.159
<v Speaker 2>works goes to some pretty awful things.

0:26:36.359 --> 0:26:39.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean it's kind of like taxes, right, Yeah,

0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:43.119
<v Speaker 1>taxes go to my roads, which I appreciate, and it

0:26:43.160 --> 0:26:45.600
<v Speaker 1>goes to like genocide, which I don't appreciate.

0:26:45.920 --> 0:26:49.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And it's like you can't disentangle them. Yeah.

0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:51.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and the Catholic Church supports a lot of like

0:26:51.920 --> 0:26:54.840
<v Speaker 1>social justice initiatives. Yeah, it supports a lot of like

0:26:55.440 --> 0:26:58.679
<v Speaker 1>preventing people from getting birth control initiatives. Yeah, you know,

0:26:59.000 --> 0:27:01.960
<v Speaker 1>like it's like it's ad Yeah, and I'm not saying that,

0:27:02.040 --> 0:27:04.080
<v Speaker 1>like even I'm not even saying that, like averages out

0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:07.359
<v Speaker 1>fifty to fifty. When I was thinking about this particular

0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:09.880
<v Speaker 1>thing about why the Catholics have such a strange role

0:27:09.920 --> 0:27:13.440
<v Speaker 1>in the AIDS crisis, I think of Catholicism as trying

0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:16.280
<v Speaker 1>to create paladins, like trying to like from a D

0:27:16.320 --> 0:27:18.800
<v Speaker 1>and D point of view, not a crusade point of view,

0:27:18.800 --> 0:27:23.200
<v Speaker 1>although very related in this context. Yeah, but people who

0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:26.800
<v Speaker 1>will do what they believe is right regardless of the consequences.

0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:29.720
<v Speaker 1>And the problem is is that they both believe it

0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:33.080
<v Speaker 1>is right to take care of the sick regardless, Yeah,

0:27:33.119 --> 0:27:35.240
<v Speaker 1>and try to stop people from having condoms.

0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:40.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, like yeah, it's like it's really just like

0:27:40.680 --> 0:27:42.080
<v Speaker 2>what they think a soul is.

0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:43.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:27:44.080 --> 0:27:48.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if it was just helping humanity, that would be fine.

0:27:49.320 --> 0:27:53.840
<v Speaker 2>It's just that their soul, they're you know, saving souls

0:27:53.880 --> 0:27:57.119
<v Speaker 2>also intel or making life better for souls. Involves a

0:27:57.119 --> 0:28:00.840
<v Speaker 2>lot of other shit that is yeah, fake at best,

0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:02.320
<v Speaker 2>fair enough.

0:28:03.680 --> 0:28:05.600
<v Speaker 1>I think NPR did a really good job with the

0:28:05.640 --> 0:28:09.360
<v Speaker 1>headline from twenty nineteen how the Catholic Church aided both

0:28:09.400 --> 0:28:14.440
<v Speaker 1>the sick and the sickness as HIV spread. Yeah, because

0:28:15.320 --> 0:28:18.040
<v Speaker 1>we mostly hear about and for good reason, we mostly

0:28:18.040 --> 0:28:21.000
<v Speaker 1>hear about, like specifically how they helped the spread of

0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:24.639
<v Speaker 1>AIDS by trying to like the Pope literally doubled down

0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:29.159
<v Speaker 1>on no condoms during this period. Yeah, and Act Up

0:28:29.240 --> 0:28:32.480
<v Speaker 1>was protesting against the Catholic Church and like or specifically

0:28:32.520 --> 0:28:35.480
<v Speaker 1>against one bishop in New York City who was doing

0:28:35.520 --> 0:28:38.960
<v Speaker 1>a lot of that stuff. But at the same time

0:28:39.760 --> 0:28:41.880
<v Speaker 1>a ton of in the same way that you can say,

0:28:41.880 --> 0:28:46.520
<v Speaker 1>like lesbians stepped up the largest institution I think for

0:28:46.560 --> 0:28:49.720
<v Speaker 1>a while that was like supporting gay people financially and

0:28:49.800 --> 0:28:52.920
<v Speaker 1>like hospice care and like all of this stuff was

0:28:53.000 --> 0:28:56.400
<v Speaker 1>literally the Catholic Church is what's so fucking wild about it?

0:28:56.760 --> 0:28:57.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And so it's during the AIDS that the Church

0:29:00.880 --> 0:29:03.880
<v Speaker 1>doubles down on a nocondom's policy, possibly the worst time

0:29:03.920 --> 0:29:07.640
<v Speaker 1>in human history to do so. These policies almost certainly

0:29:07.720 --> 0:29:08.720
<v Speaker 1>killed millions of people.

0:29:09.280 --> 0:29:10.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And to.

0:29:10.640 --> 0:29:12.840
<v Speaker 1>Be clear, Well, the Mormon Church came out of the

0:29:12.880 --> 0:29:16.200
<v Speaker 1>gate horrible because the Mormon Church also wasn't not so

0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:18.680
<v Speaker 1>positive on homosexuality.

0:29:19.040 --> 0:29:19.320
<v Speaker 2>Yep.

0:29:20.040 --> 0:29:22.760
<v Speaker 1>Originally it came out the gate saying like famili should

0:29:22.760 --> 0:29:26.400
<v Speaker 1>disown their HIV positive children. Then a bunch of mothers

0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:29.640
<v Speaker 1>forced the church to change its position. It's only in

0:29:29.680 --> 0:29:31.920
<v Speaker 1>the past few years at the LDS Hospital in Salt

0:29:32.000 --> 0:29:33.640
<v Speaker 1>Lake City has opened an AIDS clinic.

0:29:34.520 --> 0:29:38.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh god, yeah, I mean that. I guess you know again,

0:29:38.920 --> 0:29:42.280
<v Speaker 2>I do not see the value of religion personally. Yeah.

0:29:42.320 --> 0:29:44.520
<v Speaker 1>No, it all seems very silly with that. Yeah.

0:29:44.520 --> 0:29:47.800
<v Speaker 2>So, but it's just like all of this stuff, all

0:29:47.920 --> 0:29:50.280
<v Speaker 2>the good things could have been done without the bad stuff.

0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:53.800
<v Speaker 2>I feel in a non religious context. Yes, is I

0:29:53.880 --> 0:29:56.600
<v Speaker 2>guess my largest take on this sort of like thing

0:29:56.640 --> 0:30:00.640
<v Speaker 2>where I'm like, you see how religion and makes us

0:30:00.760 --> 0:30:02.640
<v Speaker 2>have to do all this horrible shit just to get

0:30:02.680 --> 0:30:03.920
<v Speaker 2>a slipper of something good.

0:30:04.440 --> 0:30:07.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I mean I think that the people who

0:30:07.120 --> 0:30:12.040
<v Speaker 1>are proving that are the mutual AID groups, are the

0:30:12.120 --> 0:30:14.600
<v Speaker 1>lesbian stepping up. Many of them are religious, but many

0:30:14.640 --> 0:30:17.360
<v Speaker 1>of them are not. Right. Yeah, So I think there

0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:21.040
<v Speaker 1>are the people who are proving that you can do that. Yeah,

0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:23.040
<v Speaker 1>And it's like, but then again, you look at like

0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:25.959
<v Speaker 1>the religious community and the non religious community are just

0:30:26.080 --> 0:30:28.840
<v Speaker 1>both full of people doing really good and really bad

0:30:28.840 --> 0:30:30.040
<v Speaker 1>shit with the AIDS crisis.

0:30:30.200 --> 0:30:35.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, yes, I will say one of my absolute

0:30:35.320 --> 0:30:39.320
<v Speaker 2>worst thing habits is because a fairly common question when

0:30:39.520 --> 0:30:42.840
<v Speaker 2>when we're on skid Row for solidating snacks is like, oh,

0:30:42.840 --> 0:30:45.400
<v Speaker 2>what church are you with? And I am, I am

0:30:45.560 --> 0:30:51.000
<v Speaker 2>way too snippy that about no church, never church. And

0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:54.080
<v Speaker 2>I also I am like I should be more unaware

0:30:54.360 --> 0:30:59.000
<v Speaker 2>that I'm not religious, but many people are very religious,

0:30:59.280 --> 0:31:02.560
<v Speaker 2>including you know, many residents of skid Row, and I'm

0:31:02.600 --> 0:31:05.840
<v Speaker 2>just like, why am I starting anything? And it's not

0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:07.080
<v Speaker 2>like I'm starting.

0:31:06.680 --> 0:31:08.760
<v Speaker 1>Ship but telling them you're not with a church and

0:31:08.800 --> 0:31:11.040
<v Speaker 1>that you like are an atheist or I'm not to

0:31:11.080 --> 0:31:11.920
<v Speaker 1>put labels on you.

0:31:11.840 --> 0:31:13.120
<v Speaker 2>But no, no, yeah I am.

0:31:13.320 --> 0:31:15.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so like, but telling them you know that isn't

0:31:15.720 --> 0:31:19.440
<v Speaker 1>like you're not telling them like and therefore you're fucking wrong.

0:31:19.960 --> 0:31:23.200
<v Speaker 1>You know, you're just like, yeah, I mean, okay, maybe

0:31:23.240 --> 0:31:23.920
<v Speaker 1>you are, but like.

0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:26.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm not, I'm not like that, but my tone is

0:31:26.200 --> 0:31:29.520
<v Speaker 2>definitely that. But also sometimes people just don't like that,

0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:33.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, I I am. I will say stuff like, oh,

0:31:33.040 --> 0:31:36.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't believe in I'm not religious, I don't believe

0:31:36.160 --> 0:31:40.520
<v Speaker 2>in a god, And you'd be surprised at how that is,

0:31:40.920 --> 0:31:44.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, more combative than I would have thought.

0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:46.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's like when I tell people I'm vegan and

0:31:46.240 --> 0:31:47.920
<v Speaker 1>they're like, but I eat meat. I'm like, I didn't

0:31:47.920 --> 0:31:50.760
<v Speaker 1>say anything about that. Yeah, that's a whole separate conversation

0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:54.400
<v Speaker 1>that you brought up. Like, yeah, you know, yeah.

0:31:53.920 --> 0:31:56.959
<v Speaker 2>But it's fairly common. I would just say, yeah, anyways,

0:31:57.160 --> 0:31:57.480
<v Speaker 2>I believe.

0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:01.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's very common when you say things like this

0:32:01.680 --> 0:32:03.400
<v Speaker 1>because people take it as a challenge, whether or not

0:32:03.440 --> 0:32:04.719
<v Speaker 1>it's intended as it.

0:32:05.200 --> 0:32:06.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:32:06.520 --> 0:32:11.000
<v Speaker 1>But doctor Reese worked with the hospital and the nuns

0:32:11.040 --> 0:32:14.120
<v Speaker 1>to care for people, and nuns were running around trying

0:32:14.120 --> 0:32:17.200
<v Speaker 1>to convince doctors and funeral directors alike to stop being

0:32:17.240 --> 0:32:21.240
<v Speaker 1>afraid of people with AIDS. All the while, everyone kept

0:32:21.280 --> 0:32:23.760
<v Speaker 1>telling them, all you're going to catch AIDS and die.

0:32:23.840 --> 0:32:27.000
<v Speaker 1>What are you doing? You you know you're dooming yourself

0:32:27.040 --> 0:32:29.960
<v Speaker 1>by going anywhere near these people. And they're like, no,

0:32:30.720 --> 0:32:32.240
<v Speaker 1>we're going to do it. This is what we're gonna do,

0:32:32.520 --> 0:32:32.720
<v Speaker 1>you know.

0:32:32.880 --> 0:32:33.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:32:33.800 --> 0:32:37.480
<v Speaker 1>They also provided medications under the table basically using PREP

0:32:37.560 --> 0:32:42.000
<v Speaker 1>years before it was approved. When AIDS patients died, I

0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:43.600
<v Speaker 1>read an interviewer. I was like, wait, where'd you get

0:32:43.640 --> 0:32:46.520
<v Speaker 1>all the medications? And they're like, oh, well, AIDS patients

0:32:46.560 --> 0:32:48.280
<v Speaker 1>die all the time, So we take their surplus and

0:32:48.280 --> 0:32:50.920
<v Speaker 1>then give it to the people who you know can't

0:32:50.960 --> 0:32:53.959
<v Speaker 1>get it, prescribe to them or whatever, because you can.

0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:55.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm not trying to tell people how to do AIDS

0:32:55.840 --> 0:32:57.600
<v Speaker 1>drugs in never mind, go to doctors, talk to them,

0:32:57.640 --> 0:32:59.440
<v Speaker 1>which is great AIDS clinics if you ever want to

0:32:59.440 --> 0:33:02.680
<v Speaker 1>take PREP. But but yeah, so they like were doing

0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:07.240
<v Speaker 1>this well before PREP became on the scene. And they

0:33:07.280 --> 0:33:09.600
<v Speaker 1>would also work with people who are ordering drugs in

0:33:09.640 --> 0:33:12.280
<v Speaker 1>from overseas and people would just like smuggle them drugs

0:33:12.280 --> 0:33:14.160
<v Speaker 1>from all over Yeah.

0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:17.479
<v Speaker 2>I think that is also tough about this, like you know,

0:33:17.520 --> 0:33:20.320
<v Speaker 2>you see it with with this fucking right wing garbage

0:33:20.320 --> 0:33:26.000
<v Speaker 2>of the ivermectin, which is that like like, thankfully this

0:33:26.280 --> 0:33:29.880
<v Speaker 2>was all correct, but in the moment and you know

0:33:29.920 --> 0:33:33.440
<v Speaker 2>what and this this you know, use of the medication

0:33:33.760 --> 0:33:37.800
<v Speaker 2>was much much much more based in reality. Yeah, but

0:33:37.960 --> 0:33:40.800
<v Speaker 2>there is still like a you will simply be judged

0:33:40.840 --> 0:33:43.600
<v Speaker 2>by hindsight and you cannot totally know where you're at

0:33:43.920 --> 0:33:44.800
<v Speaker 2>while you're doing it.

0:33:44.920 --> 0:33:49.400
<v Speaker 1>Oh, totally, they could have been totally wrong. Yeah, like, yeah,

0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:52.800
<v Speaker 1>I think they did a good cost benefit analysis. I

0:33:52.840 --> 0:33:55.160
<v Speaker 1>think overall all the people doing not all of the

0:33:56.080 --> 0:33:59.360
<v Speaker 1>doctors and social workers and AIDS activists that I read

0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:02.760
<v Speaker 1>about who were working with like drugs that were not

0:34:02.840 --> 0:34:05.720
<v Speaker 1>allowed yet. I think that they did a good cost

0:34:05.760 --> 0:34:09.359
<v Speaker 1>benefit analysis. But like they could have done a bad one,

0:34:09.800 --> 0:34:11.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, and they could have or.

0:34:11.760 --> 0:34:13.719
<v Speaker 2>You could have done it right, but you could have

0:34:13.760 --> 0:34:16.040
<v Speaker 2>done the analysis right, and you can still just be

0:34:16.080 --> 0:34:20.440
<v Speaker 2>on the marginal side of I'm wrong and history. History

0:34:20.520 --> 0:34:21.560
<v Speaker 2>just looks at you differently.

0:34:21.880 --> 0:34:24.160
<v Speaker 1>Totally, No, you're right, because all of this looks really

0:34:24.239 --> 0:34:26.200
<v Speaker 1>like hah. They were just ahead of their time, right,

0:34:26.440 --> 0:34:28.680
<v Speaker 1>And if I we mectin had cured COVID or.

0:34:28.600 --> 0:34:30.759
<v Speaker 2>Whatever, then yeah, you know, they'd be the same thing.

0:34:30.800 --> 0:34:35.520
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, but yeah they were. That's just sort of

0:34:35.560 --> 0:34:38.640
<v Speaker 1>like wonky science where they're like, yes, oh, I think

0:34:38.640 --> 0:34:40.799
<v Speaker 1>this one thing that's good for another different thing will

0:34:40.800 --> 0:34:42.799
<v Speaker 1>totally be good for this other thing because I want

0:34:42.840 --> 0:34:45.560
<v Speaker 1>it to be related, whereas like this is like an

0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:50.040
<v Speaker 1>epidemiologist or whatever, you know, like, yeah, yeah.

0:34:49.440 --> 0:34:55.160
<v Speaker 2>With at least a like a hypothetical mechanism and like

0:34:55.200 --> 0:34:59.239
<v Speaker 2>a totally you know, a path totally Yes, they're not

0:34:59.360 --> 0:35:01.160
<v Speaker 2>the same, but but I just it's.

0:35:01.040 --> 0:35:04.799
<v Speaker 1>Like, no, but they rhyme in a way that's almost uncomfortable, like.

0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:08.520
<v Speaker 2>How can you really be sure? Sure?

0:35:08.640 --> 0:35:11.080
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, you know what you can be sure of.

0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:18.080
<v Speaker 1>These deals are technically deals. Actually that's not true. It

0:35:18.160 --> 0:35:20.400
<v Speaker 1>might not even be products. They might not even be services.

0:35:20.440 --> 0:35:22.160
<v Speaker 1>A lot of the ads are just like go outside

0:35:22.280 --> 0:35:23.000
<v Speaker 1>or gamble.

0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:26.880
<v Speaker 2>I do like, I do like that you've pitched twice

0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:29.239
<v Speaker 2>now that there are deals in the ads, and I'm

0:35:29.280 --> 0:35:31.840
<v Speaker 2>trying to think. I feel like it's actually pretty infrequent

0:35:31.880 --> 0:35:33.600
<v Speaker 2>that there are actual deals in ads.

0:35:33.760 --> 0:35:38.279
<v Speaker 1>I know, it's such a shame. Well, I will say.

0:35:38.360 --> 0:35:40.600
<v Speaker 2>You never know. Yeah, you can only find out if

0:35:40.640 --> 0:35:41.759
<v Speaker 2>there's a deal if you listen to.

0:35:41.760 --> 0:35:53.040
<v Speaker 1>The ad exactly exactly and here they are and we're back.

0:35:54.520 --> 0:35:57.440
<v Speaker 1>So I don't know a ton about the rest of

0:35:57.480 --> 0:35:58.879
<v Speaker 1>the world this relates to it, But I have one

0:35:58.920 --> 0:36:01.520
<v Speaker 1>anecdote from Ulstrol that I found interesting when I was

0:36:01.560 --> 0:36:05.320
<v Speaker 1>doing this research. So lesbian nurse named Anne Maurice Sweeney,

0:36:05.640 --> 0:36:07.760
<v Speaker 1>who wrote about her time as a nurse for AIDS

0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:12.320
<v Speaker 1>patients in the early nineties. Quote, I can't talk easily

0:36:12.560 --> 0:36:14.880
<v Speaker 1>about nursing people who are dying of AIDS. During the

0:36:14.920 --> 0:36:17.839
<v Speaker 1>early nineties, it was like being on the front line

0:36:17.880 --> 0:36:21.640
<v Speaker 1>during a war, except nobody won. Dykes were everywhere during

0:36:21.640 --> 0:36:24.800
<v Speaker 1>the AIDS crisis in this city. We were the least

0:36:24.840 --> 0:36:27.080
<v Speaker 1>likely to contract the virus, but the most likely to

0:36:27.080 --> 0:36:30.160
<v Speaker 1>take it on to help to confront a community crisis

0:36:30.200 --> 0:36:34.239
<v Speaker 1>head on. And just like just like reading her right

0:36:34.320 --> 0:36:38.400
<v Speaker 1>with pride about like, yeah, all right, we could have

0:36:39.200 --> 0:36:44.520
<v Speaker 1>stayed safe. You know, like literally, statistically the there absolutely

0:36:44.520 --> 0:36:48.240
<v Speaker 1>were lesbians who died of AIDS during the AIDS crisis.

0:36:48.280 --> 0:36:50.279
<v Speaker 1>And I'm not trying to diminish that. We're gonna talk

0:36:50.280 --> 0:36:51.759
<v Speaker 1>a little bit about women and AIDS at the end

0:36:51.800 --> 0:36:55.120
<v Speaker 1>of this, but you know, yeah, the safest way to

0:36:55.160 --> 0:36:59.080
<v Speaker 1>have sex and from an aid's point of view, and

0:37:00.280 --> 0:37:03.240
<v Speaker 1>just doing it anyway, just going and helping people anyway,

0:37:03.360 --> 0:37:09.560
<v Speaker 1>Like I like it. Yeah, Slowly, people fought the stigma

0:37:09.680 --> 0:37:13.240
<v Speaker 1>that was isolating AIDS patients. I feel like the waves

0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:16.279
<v Speaker 1>of the early battle against AIDS were like, get people

0:37:16.320 --> 0:37:19.200
<v Speaker 1>to admit that it's happening, Get people to stop isolating

0:37:19.280 --> 0:37:22.600
<v Speaker 1>dying people, get information about transmission out to people, so

0:37:22.640 --> 0:37:26.879
<v Speaker 1>that's safer. Sex practices can spread, get enough basic treatments out,

0:37:26.960 --> 0:37:29.600
<v Speaker 1>and let people experiment rather than just die waiting for

0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:32.239
<v Speaker 1>proper medical trials. These are a lot of the avenues

0:37:32.280 --> 0:37:36.840
<v Speaker 1>by that people were fighting, right, And it's kind of

0:37:36.840 --> 0:37:39.040
<v Speaker 1>interesting too because you can kind of present these like

0:37:39.320 --> 0:37:43.880
<v Speaker 1>victories like death with dignity rather than like because normally,

0:37:43.880 --> 0:37:46.640
<v Speaker 1>when we think about like victory in terms of an

0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:51.160
<v Speaker 1>pandemic or an ailment or whatever, we think of like cures, right, Yeah,

0:37:51.280 --> 0:37:54.880
<v Speaker 1>but being able to set this bar of like victory

0:37:55.000 --> 0:37:58.319
<v Speaker 1>sometimes means like I can die with my family in

0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:02.400
<v Speaker 1>the room, or I wasn't completely isolated in a weird

0:38:02.400 --> 0:38:04.440
<v Speaker 1>plastic place before I died, you know.

0:38:05.040 --> 0:38:06.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:38:06.560 --> 0:38:09.080
<v Speaker 1>In terms of fighting the medical stigma, a lot of

0:38:09.080 --> 0:38:11.560
<v Speaker 1>that work was done by the first dedicated AIDS ward

0:38:11.560 --> 0:38:15.359
<v Speaker 1>in the US, Ward five B, which opened in July

0:38:15.520 --> 0:38:18.759
<v Speaker 1>nineteen eighty three in the San Francisco General Hospital. It

0:38:18.840 --> 0:38:20.799
<v Speaker 1>was on the fifth floor, that's why it's called Ward

0:38:20.840 --> 0:38:23.000
<v Speaker 1>five B. It was actually like words five A and

0:38:23.040 --> 0:38:26.680
<v Speaker 1>five B or whatever. But like history wanted to simplify.

0:38:26.239 --> 0:38:27.359
<v Speaker 2>It, you gotta pick a name.

0:38:27.719 --> 0:38:30.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, and there's like a documentary from a couple

0:38:30.320 --> 0:38:32.520
<v Speaker 1>of years ago about it, and you know, it's called

0:38:32.560 --> 0:38:37.400
<v Speaker 1>five B. Patients had been dealing with extreme isolation, with

0:38:37.480 --> 0:38:39.520
<v Speaker 1>staff refusing to treat them and all that shit we've

0:38:39.560 --> 0:38:42.680
<v Speaker 1>been talking about. So the idea of putting the AIDS

0:38:42.680 --> 0:38:46.560
<v Speaker 1>patients together was appealing, but at first folks weren't so

0:38:46.600 --> 0:38:48.480
<v Speaker 1>sure it would be for the best. There was an

0:38:48.520 --> 0:38:52.000
<v Speaker 1>awful lot of comparison early on between AIDS patients and lepers,

0:38:52.560 --> 0:38:56.279
<v Speaker 1>who for millennia were put into leper colonies and they

0:38:56.280 --> 0:38:59.920
<v Speaker 1>still are in many places. But in the end folks

0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:02.320
<v Speaker 1>were like, fuck it, we need to give people a

0:39:02.400 --> 0:39:06.719
<v Speaker 1>place to be, so they created five B. San Francisco

0:39:06.760 --> 0:39:09.240
<v Speaker 1>at the time had the highest rate of AIDS per capita.

0:39:09.400 --> 0:39:12.439
<v Speaker 1>New York had more total cases, and those folks needed

0:39:12.440 --> 0:39:14.440
<v Speaker 1>to be cared for, and in particular, they needed to

0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:16.520
<v Speaker 1>be cared for by people who would actually, you know,

0:39:17.239 --> 0:39:20.520
<v Speaker 1>care for them right and not just treat them like shit.

0:39:22.200 --> 0:39:26.160
<v Speaker 1>Early on ward, five B was many ways of hospice.

0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:28.480
<v Speaker 1>Not everyone who checked into the hospital with AIDS died

0:39:28.520 --> 0:39:30.239
<v Speaker 1>right away. You kind of have this kind of oversimplified

0:39:30.239 --> 0:39:32.279
<v Speaker 1>thing where you're like, I now have AIDS, and now

0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:34.759
<v Speaker 1>I am go to hospital and now I die, right,

0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:36.759
<v Speaker 1>which happened to a lot of people. But it was

0:39:36.760 --> 0:39:39.719
<v Speaker 1>more like, I now have a complication of this and

0:39:39.760 --> 0:39:41.279
<v Speaker 1>have to go to the hospital for a while, and

0:39:41.360 --> 0:39:44.839
<v Speaker 1>I might die there. And I eventually will die there,

0:39:44.920 --> 0:39:46.080
<v Speaker 1>but maybe not this time.

0:39:46.520 --> 0:39:46.719
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:39:47.840 --> 0:39:50.760
<v Speaker 1>Many people did recover temporarily from this or that ailment,

0:39:50.920 --> 0:39:53.799
<v Speaker 1>and there was a companion out patient service of like

0:39:53.840 --> 0:39:58.640
<v Speaker 1>eight different housing organizations and grew like places to go

0:39:58.840 --> 0:40:02.200
<v Speaker 1>help people find places to live outside of it. But

0:40:02.800 --> 0:40:05.680
<v Speaker 1>people came to the hospital and died there. Ninety seven

0:40:05.719 --> 0:40:07.839
<v Speaker 1>percent of the patients in the ward in nineteen eighty

0:40:07.880 --> 0:40:11.680
<v Speaker 1>six were gay men, which is also the like, again,

0:40:11.680 --> 0:40:15.040
<v Speaker 1>we're going to talk a little bit about AIDS affecting women,

0:40:15.280 --> 0:40:18.120
<v Speaker 1>and AIDS absolutely affects a lot of straight people, and

0:40:18.360 --> 0:40:21.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's like, yeah, but the very beginning of

0:40:21.560 --> 0:40:24.080
<v Speaker 1>this as a crisis, and during the period in which

0:40:24.120 --> 0:40:28.200
<v Speaker 1>it was killing everyone in the United States, the brunt

0:40:28.200 --> 0:40:32.600
<v Speaker 1>of that was born by Meadow Sex with men. When

0:40:32.640 --> 0:40:35.920
<v Speaker 1>they made this ward, every person who worked there had

0:40:36.000 --> 0:40:38.840
<v Speaker 1>volunteered to be there, and they had a much higher

0:40:38.880 --> 0:40:41.520
<v Speaker 1>retention rate of workers than elsewhere in the hospital because

0:40:41.520 --> 0:40:44.160
<v Speaker 1>they believed in what they were doing. Even though it

0:40:44.200 --> 0:40:47.120
<v Speaker 1>was like this is going to shock you. Other workers

0:40:47.120 --> 0:40:49.600
<v Speaker 1>in the hospital were like dicks about it, and they

0:40:49.600 --> 0:40:52.840
<v Speaker 1>would complain about this. One nurse complained about the quote

0:40:53.160 --> 0:41:00.000
<v Speaker 1>homosexual hierarchy that provided quote preferential treatment for AIDS patients.

0:41:00.520 --> 0:41:09.040
<v Speaker 2>God, right, just because like their caregivers were good people. Yeah, totally, yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:41:09.120 --> 0:41:12.040
<v Speaker 1>The fucking people just don't talk enough about dying of

0:41:12.080 --> 0:41:13.000
<v Speaker 1>AIDS privilege.

0:41:13.520 --> 0:41:17.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Jesus Christ.

0:41:18.040 --> 0:41:22.920
<v Speaker 1>Within five b patients were treated as humans. One of

0:41:22.960 --> 0:41:25.680
<v Speaker 1>the main things they offered was human touch, which people

0:41:25.760 --> 0:41:27.480
<v Speaker 1>were being denied. Like a lot of people were just

0:41:27.560 --> 0:41:29.279
<v Speaker 1>like literally like, oh, kind of the main thing I

0:41:29.280 --> 0:41:31.040
<v Speaker 1>did because I couldn't actually help anyone as I go

0:41:31.080 --> 0:41:33.000
<v Speaker 1>around and give people hugs, you know.

0:41:33.920 --> 0:41:34.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah.

0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:38.560
<v Speaker 1>Care was directed by the patients themselves and their loved ones.

0:41:39.280 --> 0:41:41.399
<v Speaker 1>And one of the things that they did was really cool.

0:41:41.440 --> 0:41:44.560
<v Speaker 1>They fought successfully to overturn the hospital rules that limited

0:41:44.600 --> 0:41:48.240
<v Speaker 1>what counted as family, right, Like, you're a gay couple,

0:41:48.600 --> 0:41:52.279
<v Speaker 1>you can't be like you there's no legal marriage, you know, right,

0:41:54.200 --> 0:41:57.200
<v Speaker 1>like the future sorry, I mean keep.

0:41:57.120 --> 0:42:02.319
<v Speaker 2>That, I mean, yeah, not to totally derail. It just

0:42:02.320 --> 0:42:07.040
<v Speaker 2>feels like the bigger impediment to equal marriage being rolled

0:42:07.040 --> 0:42:08.839
<v Speaker 2>back is going to be something along the lines of

0:42:08.920 --> 0:42:11.880
<v Speaker 2>like how big a headache and its state tax planning.

0:42:11.920 --> 0:42:14.759
<v Speaker 2>It's going to cause sure, it's companies are going to

0:42:14.760 --> 0:42:17.160
<v Speaker 2>push back. It's not going to be for justice if

0:42:17.200 --> 0:42:17.800
<v Speaker 2>it survives.

0:42:17.920 --> 0:42:20.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, it's like there's a certain amount of

0:42:20.520 --> 0:42:23.120
<v Speaker 1>like genies and bottles and where their relative positions are

0:42:23.120 --> 0:42:25.239
<v Speaker 1>to each other where it's like hard to get them

0:42:25.239 --> 0:42:28.160
<v Speaker 1>back in. Yeah, but like, you know, I think we

0:42:28.160 --> 0:42:30.160
<v Speaker 1>would have thought that. No, actually I'll say it was

0:42:30.200 --> 0:42:31.920
<v Speaker 1>like we would have thought that about abortion. But actually,

0:42:31.920 --> 0:42:34.400
<v Speaker 1>now that I think that through, I'm like, no, that

0:42:34.480 --> 0:42:39.279
<v Speaker 1>has been a territory of struggle, yes, from the day

0:42:39.320 --> 0:42:40.799
<v Speaker 1>of Roe v. Wade, you know.

0:42:41.719 --> 0:42:46.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but still it is like, yeah, I mean, you know,

0:42:46.360 --> 0:42:49.879
<v Speaker 2>there's there's no there's no regression that these folks are

0:42:49.880 --> 0:42:54.279
<v Speaker 2>not on board for is H and are increasingly willing

0:42:54.360 --> 0:42:58.600
<v Speaker 2>to pull the levers on against the face of all evidence.

0:42:58.760 --> 0:43:02.080
<v Speaker 1>And you know, so yeah, and even like the majority

0:43:02.120 --> 0:43:03.440
<v Speaker 1>of American people being like.

0:43:03.600 --> 0:43:07.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so yeah, so yeah, I'm not holding my breath.

0:43:07.760 --> 0:43:11.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, everything that I read whenever I read like homophobia

0:43:11.480 --> 0:43:13.640
<v Speaker 1>from the eighties and earlier or whatever. It's this the

0:43:13.719 --> 0:43:16.480
<v Speaker 1>literally the same stuff as transphobia from now you know.

0:43:16.600 --> 0:43:18.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I'm like, yeah.

0:43:18.239 --> 0:43:20.440
<v Speaker 1>They will never defeat us. If they managed to defeat

0:43:20.440 --> 0:43:22.120
<v Speaker 1>the trans people, then they would just then do the

0:43:22.120 --> 0:43:25.680
<v Speaker 1>same for gay people immediately afterwards, Like they're absolutely coming

0:43:25.719 --> 0:43:27.440
<v Speaker 1>for you next. This gay is listening to this, but

0:43:27.480 --> 0:43:29.120
<v Speaker 1>I think you know that, or you wouldn't be listening

0:43:29.160 --> 0:43:29.319
<v Speaker 1>to this.

0:43:29.920 --> 0:43:31.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:43:31.840 --> 0:43:35.960
<v Speaker 1>But the hospital worked to let more people in to

0:43:36.120 --> 0:43:40.040
<v Speaker 1>count as family or you know, friends. Family partners were

0:43:40.040 --> 0:43:42.680
<v Speaker 1>allowed to visit twenty four to seven. They could sleep

0:43:42.719 --> 0:43:45.279
<v Speaker 1>on cots in the rooms, and patients were encouraged to

0:43:45.280 --> 0:43:48.560
<v Speaker 1>treat these rooms as their home. To quote a New

0:43:48.640 --> 0:43:52.280
<v Speaker 1>York Times article from nineteen eighty five quote, the staff

0:43:52.320 --> 0:43:54.719
<v Speaker 1>also tries to be prepared for the first visit by

0:43:54.760 --> 0:43:57.880
<v Speaker 1>patient's parents, some learning for the first time that a

0:43:57.960 --> 0:44:01.759
<v Speaker 1>son was homosexual, right, and that's like one of the again,

0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:04.120
<v Speaker 1>the like little fucking heart string shit about it is

0:44:04.160 --> 0:44:09.680
<v Speaker 1>You're just like fuck, I just yeah that moment, Yeah,

0:44:09.719 --> 0:44:11.799
<v Speaker 1>and knowing that only like I don't know, probably half

0:44:11.840 --> 0:44:13.279
<v Speaker 1>a parents are going to pass the test.

0:44:14.040 --> 0:44:17.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, God, I can't even imagine what the actual

0:44:17.640 --> 0:44:22.160
<v Speaker 2>like percentages and that stuff is. Yeah, I don't know,

0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:24.279
<v Speaker 2>but I mean I guess for what it's worth, it

0:44:24.320 --> 0:44:27.480
<v Speaker 2>is like not that it gets easier, but you can

0:44:27.520 --> 0:44:31.320
<v Speaker 2>get better at it, get better at like like working

0:44:31.400 --> 0:44:34.759
<v Speaker 2>to prepare and like, you know, I don't know. Yeah,

0:44:35.000 --> 0:44:37.480
<v Speaker 2>I guess it's just like heartening that like there's no

0:44:37.960 --> 0:44:41.120
<v Speaker 2>task too horrible that we can't at least get like

0:44:41.239 --> 0:44:43.880
<v Speaker 2>improve at it. And it's good that it's like you know,

0:44:43.960 --> 0:44:48.640
<v Speaker 2>a collection of knowledge can be had. Oh, totally grow. Sorry,

0:44:48.680 --> 0:44:51.040
<v Speaker 2>this is a totally just mind tangent.

0:44:51.120 --> 0:44:53.560
<v Speaker 1>But no, no, because this is in the same way

0:44:53.560 --> 0:44:56.680
<v Speaker 1>that the buddy system developed in Dallas spread across the country,

0:44:56.800 --> 0:45:00.360
<v Speaker 1>the system of how to have an aids ward spread

0:45:00.360 --> 0:45:03.360
<v Speaker 1>across the country. And like, yeah, this is the difference

0:45:03.400 --> 0:45:06.960
<v Speaker 1>between like di Y fake science and DIY actual science.

0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:09.600
<v Speaker 1>Is like they actual science. You build a body of knowledge.

0:45:09.960 --> 0:45:11.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, well because it works.

0:45:11.560 --> 0:45:13.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and like and you compare notes with each other,

0:45:13.760 --> 0:45:16.640
<v Speaker 1>like like everyone at home injecting themselves with random drugs

0:45:16.680 --> 0:45:19.480
<v Speaker 1>as they hope it'll cure COVID or AIDS or whatever.

0:45:19.719 --> 0:45:21.320
<v Speaker 1>I know it's a weak comparison made, but we already

0:45:21.360 --> 0:45:21.600
<v Speaker 1>made it.

0:45:22.440 --> 0:45:25.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, but no, I mean I saw that they're

0:45:25.440 --> 0:45:28.840
<v Speaker 2>They're like ifromactine can cure cancer, and I'm just like, wow,

0:45:29.280 --> 0:45:31.280
<v Speaker 2>I should cancer exactly.

0:45:31.360 --> 0:45:31.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:45:31.640 --> 0:45:34.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but it's just like these people are like making

0:45:35.239 --> 0:45:38.239
<v Speaker 2>they they now just needed to be magic because it

0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:40.800
<v Speaker 2>was it was it was magic before, so why wouldn't

0:45:40.840 --> 0:45:42.120
<v Speaker 2>it be you know, magic now.

0:45:42.239 --> 0:45:44.000
<v Speaker 1>No, And it's such a like even earlier when I

0:45:44.000 --> 0:45:45.720
<v Speaker 1>was like, well, the people a dying, so they'll try anything,

0:45:45.760 --> 0:45:48.600
<v Speaker 1>and you know, almost as this inspirational thing or whatever,

0:45:49.239 --> 0:45:53.600
<v Speaker 1>there's actually like thinking about the cancer comparison. Yeah, that's

0:45:53.640 --> 0:45:55.120
<v Speaker 1>just like the Land of Grifters.

0:45:55.520 --> 0:45:56.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly.

0:45:57.600 --> 0:46:00.520
<v Speaker 1>I like wonder I almost like one or why there

0:46:00.520 --> 0:46:02.840
<v Speaker 1>were I mean I'm sure there were some, but like

0:46:02.960 --> 0:46:05.279
<v Speaker 1>overall you read about this stuff and it is like

0:46:05.920 --> 0:46:09.040
<v Speaker 1>doctors who are serious doing some stuff that would look

0:46:09.040 --> 0:46:10.400
<v Speaker 1>sketchy in other situations.

0:46:10.920 --> 0:46:13.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, like I mean, look that might also

0:46:13.880 --> 0:46:16.799
<v Speaker 2>just be the hindsight of it there. Yeah, as you said,

0:46:16.880 --> 0:46:23.280
<v Speaker 2>there probably were like abject failures in this type of arena.

0:46:23.440 --> 0:46:24.840
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, I mean one of the things I was

0:46:24.880 --> 0:46:28.040
<v Speaker 1>reading is like basically is like, look, patients are trying anything.

0:46:28.080 --> 0:46:30.319
<v Speaker 1>People are like I grew mushrooms in my refrigerator. I

0:46:30.360 --> 0:46:32.000
<v Speaker 1>literally don't know what that one means, but like that

0:46:32.080 --> 0:46:33.680
<v Speaker 1>was the thing I read. Yeah, I don't know how

0:46:33.680 --> 0:46:36.360
<v Speaker 1>you grow mushrooms and refrigerator seems too cold, but yeah,

0:46:36.400 --> 0:46:41.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, like oh that's not freezer anyway, Like yeah,

0:46:41.880 --> 0:46:44.120
<v Speaker 1>and so I think that the systematizing of this thing

0:46:44.160 --> 0:46:47.600
<v Speaker 1>that's happening, I think that's what makes it DIY or

0:46:47.680 --> 0:46:51.279
<v Speaker 1>non institutional science instead of like land of grifts and

0:46:51.440 --> 0:46:52.200
<v Speaker 1>like yes.

0:46:52.320 --> 0:46:56.799
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, yes, yeah. It's like it's so hard from

0:46:56.800 --> 0:46:59.319
<v Speaker 2>a broad view to like figure out the words to

0:46:59.719 --> 0:47:02.040
<v Speaker 2>differ between this and snake oil.

0:47:01.880 --> 0:47:03.680
<v Speaker 1>Because you're like, totally.

0:47:05.000 --> 0:47:08.080
<v Speaker 2>They share a lot of like nouns and verbs, but.

0:47:08.880 --> 0:47:13.000
<v Speaker 1>They are different languages somehow. Even Yeah, well some of

0:47:13.000 --> 0:47:16.400
<v Speaker 1>the science, I mean Ward five B was not you know,

0:47:17.200 --> 0:47:17.520
<v Speaker 1>that was.

0:47:17.440 --> 0:47:19.520
<v Speaker 2>Institution's part of a hospital. Yeah exactly.

0:47:19.800 --> 0:47:22.440
<v Speaker 1>But then again, the last the folks in Utah who

0:47:22.440 --> 0:47:27.360
<v Speaker 1>were like sneaking people drugs were epidemiologists who worked for

0:47:27.400 --> 0:47:31.759
<v Speaker 1>a hospital too, you know. Yeah, and in Ward five

0:47:31.880 --> 0:47:34.960
<v Speaker 1>B staff were studied extensively to see if they would

0:47:35.000 --> 0:47:38.200
<v Speaker 1>catch aides, right, because they were like, no, we're pretty

0:47:38.200 --> 0:47:40.440
<v Speaker 1>sure we know how this works. Now we're going to

0:47:40.480 --> 0:47:43.719
<v Speaker 1>stare and see. And at least one person did contract

0:47:43.760 --> 0:47:46.920
<v Speaker 1>it after I believe she accidentally pricked herself with a

0:47:47.040 --> 0:47:51.520
<v Speaker 1>used needle, right, But then other people were tested after

0:47:51.680 --> 0:47:55.520
<v Speaker 1>like someone got bodily fluids in an open wound or

0:47:55.640 --> 0:48:01.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, like things happen, right, but like, you know,

0:48:01.680 --> 0:48:06.760
<v Speaker 1>it became a place where people were learning about the disease,

0:48:06.880 --> 0:48:10.920
<v Speaker 1>you know. Yeah, and so they had this, you know,

0:48:11.120 --> 0:48:13.800
<v Speaker 1>despite people being mad at the homosexual hierarchy or whatever.

0:48:14.040 --> 0:48:14.120
<v Speaker 2>Like.

0:48:14.200 --> 0:48:16.560
<v Speaker 1>Patients were allowed to move around the hospital unless they

0:48:16.560 --> 0:48:20.960
<v Speaker 1>had specific contagious issues, and the care provided at five

0:48:21.040 --> 0:48:22.960
<v Speaker 1>B soon became a model for the rest of the country.

0:48:22.960 --> 0:48:26.799
<v Speaker 1>Like I was saying, one of the nurses there, a

0:48:26.840 --> 0:48:30.560
<v Speaker 1>guy named Guy Vanderberg, said to ABC in twenty nineteen,

0:48:31.400 --> 0:48:33.960
<v Speaker 1>don't wait for a leader, don't wait for someone to

0:48:33.960 --> 0:48:36.719
<v Speaker 1>show you the way, don't wait for the right presidential

0:48:36.719 --> 0:48:40.160
<v Speaker 1>candidate to show up. It's you and me. It's right now,

0:48:40.239 --> 0:48:43.200
<v Speaker 1>it's right here. You are as prepared as you need

0:48:43.239 --> 0:48:47.000
<v Speaker 1>to be. I really like that. I really like the like, yeah,

0:48:47.160 --> 0:48:51.000
<v Speaker 1>it's it's us, that's we. Yeah, we can do it,

0:48:51.480 --> 0:48:51.759
<v Speaker 1>you know.

0:48:52.360 --> 0:48:56.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we have to do it. Those things are all

0:48:56.360 --> 0:48:59.040
<v Speaker 2>amith the other shit, Yeah, it has to be us.

0:48:59.360 --> 0:49:01.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. It's like a cliche I ran across that I

0:49:01.560 --> 0:49:03.359
<v Speaker 1>liked recently that have been on my mind a lot,

0:49:03.400 --> 0:49:05.680
<v Speaker 1>which is like, we're all we've got and we're all

0:49:05.719 --> 0:49:06.120
<v Speaker 1>we need.

0:49:06.440 --> 0:49:10.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, I think the B side, the B side

0:49:10.360 --> 0:49:12.480
<v Speaker 2>helps people because I think the A side really makes

0:49:12.480 --> 0:49:13.040
<v Speaker 2>them scared.

0:49:13.480 --> 0:49:16.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, totally. No, it's exactly that, Like it's like, Okay,

0:49:16.360 --> 0:49:20.279
<v Speaker 1>we're all we've got, but that's okay, we can do this,

0:49:20.560 --> 0:49:22.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, like yeah, and when we say we it's

0:49:22.960 --> 0:49:26.480
<v Speaker 1>a pretty big wei Like yeah, especially when we remember

0:49:26.640 --> 0:49:29.680
<v Speaker 1>to focus on our solidarity and not our divisions, you know.

0:49:30.120 --> 0:49:31.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:49:31.719 --> 0:49:33.880
<v Speaker 1>For good reason. Most of the attention around the AIDS

0:49:33.880 --> 0:49:37.680
<v Speaker 1>crisis is focused on gay men, but HIV can spread

0:49:37.719 --> 0:49:40.879
<v Speaker 1>to anybody, and part of the erasure of women from

0:49:40.880 --> 0:49:44.360
<v Speaker 1>AID statistics was based on the CDC's definition of AIDS

0:49:44.400 --> 0:49:49.279
<v Speaker 1>that categorically excluded women. For years, the CDC's definition of

0:49:49.320 --> 0:49:54.880
<v Speaker 1>AIDS didn't include opportunistic infections that often affected and killed

0:49:54.920 --> 0:50:00.200
<v Speaker 1>women with HIV. To quote an old Act Up pamphlet quote,

0:50:00.520 --> 0:50:04.200
<v Speaker 1>for example, thrush in the mouth of an HIV infected

0:50:04.200 --> 0:50:08.040
<v Speaker 1>person is recognized as AIDS, but the same fungus in

0:50:08.080 --> 0:50:12.520
<v Speaker 1>the vagina, chronic candiditis is not as a result of

0:50:12.560 --> 0:50:16.240
<v Speaker 1>the skewed definition, by the time women are diagnosed with AIDS,

0:50:16.560 --> 0:50:20.880
<v Speaker 1>they are almost dead. Pelvic inflammatory disease and cervical cancer

0:50:20.960 --> 0:50:23.920
<v Speaker 1>are killing women with HIV who are never diagnosed with AIDS.

0:50:24.400 --> 0:50:27.479
<v Speaker 1>Sixty five percent of HIV infected women die without having

0:50:27.520 --> 0:50:30.040
<v Speaker 1>ever been diagnosed with AIDS. And again, that's an old

0:50:30.080 --> 0:50:34.560
<v Speaker 1>pamphlet if you're listening, that's not the current statistics. The

0:50:34.600 --> 0:50:37.799
<v Speaker 1>Women's Caucus of act UP got together and worked on

0:50:37.840 --> 0:50:40.120
<v Speaker 1>the issue for years and finally managed to get the

0:50:40.120 --> 0:50:43.920
<v Speaker 1>CDC to change the definition in nineteen ninety three. And

0:50:43.960 --> 0:50:45.759
<v Speaker 1>one of the reasons that this is so important is

0:50:45.760 --> 0:50:48.279
<v Speaker 1>that by this point there is funding available for a

0:50:48.320 --> 0:50:51.799
<v Speaker 1>lot of AIDS related stuff, right, and so you need

0:50:51.840 --> 0:50:53.440
<v Speaker 1>to not be cut out of that. And it was

0:50:53.600 --> 0:50:59.080
<v Speaker 1>made available to more women with AIDS. And that's my

0:51:00.200 --> 0:51:04.640
<v Speaker 1>mutual aid in a time of accidental health war episode.

0:51:05.120 --> 0:51:10.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, as as you were saying, shoot,

0:51:10.760 --> 0:51:12.279
<v Speaker 2>and I can't remember if it was this episode of

0:51:12.320 --> 0:51:16.080
<v Speaker 2>the previous but like or maybe in the break like

0:51:16.160 --> 0:51:20.839
<v Speaker 2>this idea of like recently settled or like, I mean,

0:51:21.320 --> 0:51:25.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, the E's crisis is like settled, I suppose,

0:51:25.160 --> 0:51:27.200
<v Speaker 2>but not really.

0:51:27.560 --> 0:51:30.799
<v Speaker 1>Globally it's not. Yeah, and in the United States it's

0:51:30.840 --> 0:51:34.399
<v Speaker 1>like ongoing, but there's a lot better treatment and shit

0:51:34.560 --> 0:51:36.520
<v Speaker 1>like that. You know, it's not it's not the same

0:51:36.560 --> 0:51:38.400
<v Speaker 1>thing it was in the yes.

0:51:38.320 --> 0:51:41.520
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, yes, I don't know. I mean it's just

0:51:41.600 --> 0:51:44.839
<v Speaker 2>like like the again not to be too like dark

0:51:44.880 --> 0:51:48.120
<v Speaker 2>time to come in or hear or ben to come in,

0:51:48.600 --> 0:51:53.040
<v Speaker 2>but like, yeah, these these are the times that like

0:51:53.680 --> 0:51:59.200
<v Speaker 2>fucking we can do something and we will. So yeah,

0:51:59.520 --> 0:52:03.600
<v Speaker 2>not like it's gonna be okay because someone will save us.

0:52:04.280 --> 0:52:07.280
<v Speaker 2>It's gonna be okay because we got to do it.

0:52:07.400 --> 0:52:07.800
<v Speaker 1>Totally.

0:52:07.840 --> 0:52:10.239
<v Speaker 2>It's not gonna be fun. Yeah, but we got to

0:52:10.280 --> 0:52:10.560
<v Speaker 2>do it.

0:52:11.800 --> 0:52:14.239
<v Speaker 1>And when we say it's okay, it's like, well it's

0:52:14.239 --> 0:52:17.080
<v Speaker 1>okay in the like larger sense where bad things happen too.

0:52:17.600 --> 0:52:22.000
<v Speaker 1>You know. Yes, it doesn't mean like we're gonna win everything,

0:52:22.440 --> 0:52:24.360
<v Speaker 1>but it's gonna be okay, and that we're like gonna

0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:28.600
<v Speaker 1>do the best we can and we're gonna try and yeah,

0:52:28.680 --> 0:52:31.080
<v Speaker 1>like all this people were saying, you know, it's just like, well,

0:52:31.840 --> 0:52:35.719
<v Speaker 1>you find the way to be useful and you do it,

0:52:36.560 --> 0:52:42.959
<v Speaker 1>you know, yeah, yeah, well anything you want to plug

0:52:43.000 --> 0:52:43.279
<v Speaker 1>here at.

0:52:43.200 --> 0:52:46.440
<v Speaker 2>The end, I don't know, I have a podcast. You know,

0:52:46.480 --> 0:52:49.200
<v Speaker 2>it's this is racist. It's pretty depressing too, honestly, but

0:52:50.080 --> 0:52:54.000
<v Speaker 2>what but looking at look you know, as as as

0:52:54.120 --> 0:52:58.080
<v Speaker 2>with uh as here, it's like, it's not about depressing,

0:52:58.160 --> 0:53:02.960
<v Speaker 2>it's about looking for you know what light and connection

0:53:03.120 --> 0:53:06.560
<v Speaker 2>there can be, so you know it ebbs and flows,

0:53:06.600 --> 0:53:07.959
<v Speaker 2>the light and the dark, ebb and flow.

0:53:08.120 --> 0:53:08.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:53:08.560 --> 0:53:12.719
<v Speaker 2>Inversely, yeah, we'll end with that.

0:53:14.200 --> 0:53:16.640
<v Speaker 1>Everyone knows the plugs that I was already gonna plug

0:53:16.719 --> 0:53:19.439
<v Speaker 1>and I will see you all next week with more

0:53:19.480 --> 0:53:27.479
<v Speaker 1>Cool People Do Cool Stuff. Cool People Who Did Cool

0:53:27.480 --> 0:53:29.600
<v Speaker 1>Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media.

0:53:29.920 --> 0:53:32.800
<v Speaker 2>For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website

0:53:32.880 --> 0:53:36.560
<v Speaker 2>Foolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

0:53:36.600 --> 0:53:39.480
<v Speaker 2>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.